May 10, 2024 • 35 mins
Colin believes he's finally figured out the Boston Celtics by comparing them to the Dallas Cowboys. He argues for Jared Goff as a top 10 QB in the NFL and clearly better than Tua Tagovailoa. Plus, longtime NBA reporter Rachel Nichols joins the show in studio to tell Colin what's next for the Suns after firing head coach Frank Vogel after only one season
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Here we go on a Friday, Many things on the docket,
live in Los Angeles.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
It's the Herd.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Wherever you may be and however you may be listening.
Thanks for making us part of your day, jamac. The
Boston Celtics are weird. They're a weird team. I think
I've found what I'm looking for when it comes to
the Celtics. The analogy, I'll get to that in a second.
(00:56):
Twelve and a half point favorites and you get beat
by twenty four at home.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Not a good look for Boston. But he's the MAVs
cancer and NAT's cancer form lost.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Books off that, so Boston has arguably. The Celtics have
arguably been the best team in the NBA record wise
for three years right, and they regularly historically bizarre regularly
get throddled at home regular season in playoffs. The last
three years at home in the playoffs, they have a
(01:26):
five hundred record. And I'm thinking in a league in
an era of good like the seventies, we've had five
different title teams in five years. This year could be
the sixth and six years. Boston is just they're pretty good.
Maybe they're very good, but they're not great, and everybody
(01:47):
keeps waiting for great and they're not great. They're not special,
they're not elite. I mean, this happens to very good teams,
and Boston is very good. They don't have a Shack
in his prime. They don't have an MJ of Magic.
They don't have a Kobe, I'd argue today, they don't
have an Ant Edwards. They have Jason Tatum, who, to
be honest with you, sometimes has almost a role player's mentality.
(02:11):
I mean, last night they were twelve and a half
point favorites, lost by twenty four. That's the largest playoff
loss in thirty years by a double digit home favorite.
That's insane is some of this They just feast on
the East, and the East is really really bad. They've
been doing this for years. They were forty one and
(02:32):
eleven against the East this year. Yet on this three
year Celtics run, they have one finals appearance and they
got beat Have they become the Dallas Cowboys where they
have a coach that we don't really believe in, They
have a huge brand which translates to massive expectations. We
(02:53):
give them credit for being better than they are, and
they have a leader that is unquestionably very good Dak
and Tatum, but sometimes very questionably great. Again, is a
lot of this. The Cowboys have beaten up on bad teams,
often in division Giants and Commanders, and Boston's largely beaten
(03:16):
up on the lousy East. I mean the Boston Celtics
are not only beating up in the East. Think about
the New York Knicks. Their two best players are hobbled.
Their two other best players arguably are out Julius Randall,
Mitchell Robinson. And they're gonna win a playoff series another
in the East. Could they win one in the West.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So I think the Cowboys and the Celtics, the difference
is we've really come to understand what the Cowboys are.
The Celtics were not there yet great special, elite all
time teams are not getting throttled by twenty four at
home and have a five hundred home playoff record in
(03:58):
the last three years. I think a lot of this
is we have a leader who's unquestionably very good. We
think every time the Celtics have a great player like
a KG or a Bird, they win titles. A Magic
Kobe shack out West, you win titles.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I mean, going into last night, what was Tatum the
third leading score on the Celtics in the playoffs?
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
After the game, Tatum was asked if Celtic fans are
just spoiled.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
I mean, that's the narrative that you might see on TV,
the idea that we have a super team. It's twofold, right.
We didn't have a Coach of the Year, we didn't
have MVP, we only had two All Stars, So say
we're a super team, but you know we didn't get
rewarded like we are. We know we got a good team.
(04:51):
We're not perfect. We played it right way more often
than not, and we know we gotta be better.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I'm not asking for perfection to get throttled at home
by a slightly better than average Eastern Conference team when
you're a twelve and a half point favorite to be
five hundred at home in the playoffs the last three
years against the Eastern teams, not against the much better
Western teams, as against Eastern teams. Maybe they're just very
(05:20):
good in an era of good. I thought this was interesting.
Perception is a powerful thing, but it's not reality, although
sometimes it becomes reality. Somebody gets paid based on perception.
Those are what we call bad general managers and bad
owners in pro sports. So Jared Goff is a quarterback
(05:44):
for Detroit and Brad Holmes very very shrewd, very smart
GM one of my favorites in the NFL. They've built
a powerhouse. I've said before the Lions are the Niners,
just younger Hall of Fame level talents to me, just
younger by about five years a player. But Brad Holmes
(06:07):
said on Radio Detroit, we are gonna get this golf
extension done.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
He's earned an extension, and it's it's it's important, it's
it's a hot priority for us, and both sides are
working really really hard. But these things just kind of
take a while, especially with the quarterback market. But I
do have faith that it's going to get done.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
But it's interesting how GoF is viewed by the public
and the media and how Tua is Golf should get
the extension.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
I wouldn't give two a one for four reasons. Number one,
golf never gets hurt. Golf's been to two conference championships
and a Super Bowl. Golf is the bigger, taller athlete
six four to six foot, and he's less dependent on
a single head coach. GoF is one with two. But
Tua went to a college football power, had a cool
(07:06):
slogan attached to his name, Tank for Tua has a brilliant,
clever offensive coach, plays in ideal outdoor weather all the
time down south, and has the fastest guy in the
world as a wide receiver. But GoF is better and
there's no question, and Brad Holmes, this is a real thing.
Sees through the hype Tua. He's got a lot of
(07:27):
snazzy furniture in the house, the coaches, the wide receivers.
But if you take the snazzy furniture out, what's the house?
Goff I like the foundation of it. He's taken amor
on Saint Brown and helped make him a star seven years,
six playoffs, and I think there's a real thing here.
If you ask the fans, and you ask a lot
(07:49):
of the media, they view these as equal or two
is better, but the sharpest GM one of them in
the NFL. They're getting this thing done fast to a thing.
They're still reluctant. And so two was a little bit
like that Miami speedboat. It's flashy, but it's seasonal. Jared
Goff's the pickup truck. It works in all weather. This
(08:12):
morning I went and looked, and this is a real thing.
We talked about this about two A couple days ago.
I went and found golf and Tua in weather under
forty five degrees that is January February, December. Football golf
ninety passer rating, winning record, still a very viable quarterback,
(08:33):
four to one TD'D interception ratio. Tua plummets. You got
to give the extensions to the guys that are all terrain,
all weather, the pickup trucks. December, January February, and that
is GoF He's not flashy, he didn't come with a
(08:55):
cool slogan, didn't run around a lot. Everybody wishes he
was a little stronger and heavier. But the job of
the great gms in basketball and football is cut through
the hype and the fandom and get to the reel
and GoF is really really good. Tua just depends on
(09:17):
the weather. Jay Mac, I know you don't love that take,
but we went digging this morning, and I think it's
interesting because the perception on Tua on a flashier team.
I mean, the Lions are built mostly behind a great
offensive line. They've done a great job to find running backs, linebackers,
tight ends, fourth round receivers. But once again, Goff, two
(09:39):
different coaches, two divisions, two systems, has gotten two teams
to conference championships. He's not quarterback dependent or weapon dependent.
He's winning with amor on Saint Rohon. He won with
Cooper Kupp, he won with McVeigh. He wins with Dan Campbell,
two systems, multiple coordinators, two divisions, and he wins again.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Oh boy, quarterback wins to start the show. Oh listen.
I thought the golf bad weather thing was interesting because
historically he had been bad.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
He's now now He's not as good. He's better in
better weather in adult obviously, but he is more than viable.
B plus plus to a plummet.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Sure, now I did look it up though. Early in
Golf's career, you know, on his rookie year at the Rams,
he was putrid in poor weather, like very bad. Maybe
he's gotten better now that he's like.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Well, which should be noted.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, the first year he had maybe the worst offensive staff.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
In the league, Jeff Fisher.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
It was Jeff Fisher, right.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah, and that and those numbers, If you take just
those numbers out, it's pretty remarkable how often he wins
a lot and is really really good all the time.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
So what's his price point is hem? I mean, given
he's most so much better than Doua, is he a
forty five million dollars year?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Oh? No, I think you get into the five is
the first number. I think Jared Goffs the top ten quarterback.
I think you get into the five is the first number.
And I'm comfortable with that.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
So golf five, what's the first number for Jordan Love
and Tua?
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Jordan Love I would like to see eight seven, eight
more starts and then if we have to talk five,
I'm okay with that.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Low five.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Golf low five, and Tua I'm not there, not even
in the fours.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
No.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
By the way, if you're in the threes, you're one
of the highest paid humans on the planet. So the
let's not you know, this is not a TUA can't
play at all. Now you can play, I know. But
I'm trying to define the difference between perception and reality.
The perception on golf is low. The reality on Tua
is clear. But yet, what's the story, what's the what's
(11:44):
the belief? Well?
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Too was sexier, right, he was an MVP candidate.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Of Defense's motion speed fast, crazy over there, and they
just six yards in Detroit. Six yards in Detroit. Always
make the right three, keep the quarterback. It's not it's
a pickup trucks. Not not as exhilarating.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
I like that analogy, all right.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Another player pokes Russell Wilson. It never ends, And Luca
won last night. Did you see the stat on Luca.
Do you see the remarkable stat on Luca? That was
the lowest ball usage rate game of the year. Forum,
(12:29):
And look how good Dallas looked. Isn't that amazing? Less
Luca better, Luca better team? Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 4 (12:38):
It's certainly interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd weekdays
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Speaker 1 (12:49):
I'm never gonna criticize athletes who have strong opinions. Try
not to because they're giving us content and we want
them to not be cliche machines. But Russell Wilson, now
a Steeler, form you Seahawk and Nebroncos stands alone. It's
so interesting to me. Stands alone. He is the only star.
The production tells you he was a star, nine time
(13:10):
Pro Bowl or two Super Bowls, has a trophy that's
a star. Yet it's hard to find a player, any
player that will publicly ever say anything nice about him.
They poke, they tweak, they criticize. Here's the latest. Chris Harris,
twelve year, very very good player, played a lot of
it in Denver. Was on radio recently saying, Hey, Russell
(13:33):
Wilson needs to be a game manager, that's all he is.
In Pittsburgh.
Speaker 7 (13:38):
I think it was a lot of plays out there
that Russ miss and Seana had some great cause, of
course Sean had.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
He had a couple of bad days. You know what
happens as a head coach.
Speaker 7 (13:48):
But I think he had the right schemes, he had
the right place to be able to get these guys
open and to make plays. A lot of times Russ
held the ball a lot, you know, cousin extra sacks,
killing dry you know, and kind of missing a lot
of big throws.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
You just don't hear players saying that about like stars
that are still playing in the NFL. So maybe some
of it is. Russell Wilson doesn't poke back, so it's
easy to poke him.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
You won't get any heat back.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
But clearly a lot of players see him as robotic, inauthentic.
I say that because they've said that, but it's interesting.
Aaron Rodgers may alienate everybody, but man, he's got a
lot of guys. He got media people that like him
and cover him and he's their guy. And he's got players.
David Baktiari, great player, Randall Cobb. He's got his guys.
(14:38):
Russell Wilson. Name one guy that's a Russell Wilson guy.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
I looked it up this morning.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
He had a very small wedding, one hundred people. It
was only two players. I hadn't heard of one. It's
just different. So it's interesting. We were talking as a
team this morning. Russell is so polished, it's almost like
he's been workshopped and focus grouped. You never see any
and Brady was polished, but if he was pissed, you
saw it all the time. And so and I think
(15:06):
the way Denver ended really sums up the mystery, or
maybe it's not a mystery of Russell Wilson. So the
feeling was in Denver last year, Yet Russell really cost us.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I looked it up.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
He was eight and passer rating ninth in touchdown passes
with no run game. Denver's defense was twenty ninth in
the league. Couldn't stop a cult twenty ninth, and Russell
got the blame. He wasn't Mahomes. He's pretty good. I
watched all their games. It's pretty good. I mean they
(15:43):
they have a run game. The defense was terrible. He
was almost five hundred. But who took the blame for
Russell Wilson.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
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Speaker 8 (16:00):
Hey, I'm Doug Gottlieb. The podcast is called All Ball.
We usually talk all basketball all the time, but it's
more about the stories about what made these people love
their sport and all the interesting interactions along the way.
We talked to coaches, we talked to players, We tell
you stories. You download it, you listen to it. I
think you like it. Listen to All Ball with Doug
(16:23):
Gottlieb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
All right, here we go, it's our two. We're live
in Los Angeles. It's the herd. Wherever you may be
and however you may be listening. Thanks for making us
part of your day. Rachel Nichols covered the NBA since
ninety three. Friend of the Show FS one is joining us.
I just found out, so I did something last night
that I don't do a lot of. But Rachel not
going to go too far into the family history here,
(16:52):
but she is. Her brother's a big shot in Los
Angeles in the culinary industry, which is I have at
least been to every one of his restaurants once and
they're all amazing.
Speaker 9 (17:03):
That's very kind. This is this is great. This means
that finally I can hook you up with something as
opposed to usually where you're you're spreading the red carpet
for all of us.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Well, he the restaurant group he's with his phenomenal but
it was you know, you have to travel a lot,
and I try to eat right, but it's hard.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, And so last night I went with the kids.
Speaker 9 (17:23):
And so what exactly did what? What did you in?
What part of the meal did you in?
Speaker 3 (17:28):
Well?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Instead of just ordering like an entree, the kids all
wanted like twelve different plates and shareable. And I've discovered
that doesn't work for my body. I can't do key
lime pie in front of ribs and then noodles and
rice and then a cocktail.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
And I woke up.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
This morning and I'm like, I felt like I went
sparring last night my body, and the food was phenomenal.
I won't I don't want to give away anything, but
I just say the food was phenomenal. But I have
found I'm I'm a very simple man, intellectually, emotionally and
now in a culinary fashion.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I need this this that I'm out.
Speaker 9 (18:06):
All right, all right? So I won't bring you kilan
pinek speak when I come on again.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Probably not best for me.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So first of all, the Suns are going to hire
Mike Budenholzer. That's the report yeah, what went wrong with Vogel.
I had gotten a source last night that said, you know,
some of the players.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
It's hard. You didn't get all buy in.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, three stars. You got to get buy in from
at least two. Is that what you're hearing?
Speaker 9 (18:33):
Sure, but I mean no losing team has buy in
from everyone. That's what happens, right, Winning papers over everything,
losing shows all the seams. To me, this is a
bit of moving deck chairs around. I'm not going to
call the Suns the Titanic. I would not go that far,
but there is a little bit of like, we can't
really do anything else. They have one draft, one first
round draft pick for the next six years, just one
(18:55):
this coming year and this summer, and that's it. So
they don't have roster flexibility. They've got these three huge contracts.
They don't really have the ability to make a lot
of changes to the supporting cast. You're not going to
fire the owner that just came in and as the
one behind all these changes, And it's not really fair
to fire the front office because James Jones didn't make
those trades. I mean he physically made them and he
(19:16):
facilitated them, but it was at the owner's directive. So
really the only guy to make a change it is
in the coach's seat. I do not think Frank Vogel
deserved to be fired. This is a championship coach and
I think it's going to be a mistake. But then again,
Mike Buttenholzer is a very good coach. I just don't
see him being able to do more than Frank Vogel
did in this situation. If the Suns have better health
(19:38):
next year, that will certainly help them. So that's something
they can do without having to make any roster changes.
But they're still stuck with an extremely top heavy team
and at least one aging superstar.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
We say this all the time. Is that you know
people want to hold you to a level of perfection.
NFL general managers who are great.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Miss all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yes, And what you can do is double down on
wrong The Giants on Daniel Jones probably a reach. Don't
double down on it. I think you'd be doubling down here.
They don't have a point guard. The Beal thing's not working.
I think you can get a ton for Booker, draft picks, capital,
get younger around Kevin Durant Beale, You can't move Bill
(20:19):
as contract. Yeah, to me, this feels a little New
York Giant where it's yeah, the construction doesn't work, let's
fire the coach and double down on it. I don't
think this team when I watch Minnesota play and okay,
see play and Dallas playing better than you think, and Denver,
this doesn't feel like a championship team.
Speaker 9 (20:38):
I to me, if you are going to make a
big move, it's Kevin Durant who I would move if
I were in that front office. And I'm sure that
Kevin doesn't want to be moved again after all of
the moving around he's done and the criticism he gets
for that. But Devin Booker is still a star in
the prime of his career. Yes, And I'm not sure
you're getting anyone better than him. I'm not sure you're
going to develop anyone better than Devin Booker has already
(21:01):
developed into. So why not keep him and then move
some of the other big, big pieces around. And unfortunately
Bradley BeO, as you point out, he has a no
trade clause, it's not worng and no real trade value
right now, and for what you get for him. And
so I think if you are going to make a
huge move. If I were in the front office, it
would be Kevin Durant, but I don't anticipate them doing that.
They've really signaled that they're going to stay with those
(21:22):
three guys and see what else they can do, And
I guess one of those things is changing the voice
in the locker room. And if they have better health,
Mike Budenolzer will look like a genius. But I don't
expect them to win a championship with this roster that's
so top heavy.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
So if you're the New York Knicks, there are two
avenues that are interesting. First of all, Boston looks infinitely,
if not beatable, you can compete with them.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Yes, we didn't think that.
Speaker 9 (21:48):
They don't look convincible, that's right.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And the other thing is the East is going to
get better next year. Dame and Yannis should be healthy,
Philadelphia's got a ton of cap room and draft picks.
Boston will still be good. Orlando may out a piece.
So you can look at the Knicks and go, this
is the beginning, or you can say the East is
(22:12):
gonna get better. It's it's really weak this year. So
I think they're fascinating. Rachel because there is an almost
a collegiate feel to them. There is a culture. We
talk heat culture, but it's Tibbs culture. You gotta be
careful who you bring in now. Booker I think works,
but Phoenix doesn't want to move him. Durant, I'm not
(22:35):
sure it. What what do you make of the Knicks going?
We know they're competitive, now, we don't think they're a
title team.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Now they're all beat up.
Speaker 9 (22:43):
I was gonna say it's hard right now because there's
just so many guys worked.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
But they're the talk of the league.
Speaker 9 (22:49):
Oh, they're thrilling to worry. I mean literally thrilling to
watch play. And I don't care who you are unless
you're a fan of the other team that's currently playing.
You're having fun watching this Nick's walk because they're not
only winning, they're so scrappy. They're playing basketball the way
you want people to play basketball. They're tough as nails,
they're rebounding. You know, Josh Hart has played more minutes
(23:11):
in playoff games than any other player in forty five years.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
That's the stat.
Speaker 9 (23:17):
It's been forty five years since the mergers doubled, and
by the way, it's probably before that too. But I'm
just going since the Aba murder, no one else has
played more per game than he has. So look, you
love to watch them play, but you do think that
they need deeper. They need a little bit more. If
they just got their players back, by the way, I
think that they could make a run to the finals
(23:38):
this year. Right, if they had Julius Randall, if they
had Ojananobi, who looks like we're not going to see
him in the next game. You know, if they had
full health, I would put them up against anyone in
the Eastern Conference this year. But they will have room
to make some moves. Unlike the Suns, they're not hamstrung,
and it is interesting to see who's going to go.
I think that they would be better off making a
(23:58):
smaller move, like the margin has been bandied about.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Right, doesn't need the ball in his hands all I.
Speaker 9 (24:04):
Need the ball as opposed to bringing in some big,
flashy player. Now for Kevin Durant's story, I always thought
that Kevin Durant should have gone to the knicks instead
of the nets. So for me watching Kevin Durant, I'd
like to see him kind of write that wrung a
great story, But I don't know if that's what's best
for New York. I just think that that would be
great for Kevin Durant's story. I do know that Kevin
Durant just wants to play basketball, and that is the
(24:26):
common denominator in that Knicks locker room. And it will
be interesting to see not only who they bring in
this summer, but where they end up this time in
this series. I still don't know what's going to happen
in this PACER's nixt series. The Pacers keep seeming like
they're being handed health advantages and yet they're not coming through.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
And it was just so crazy to me that Rick
Carlisle went after refs and small markets when Brunson and
Og were hurt, Randall, Mitchell, Robinson gone. It was there
for the taking and that was the easy win of
the first two.
Speaker 9 (24:58):
Look, look, I do think that some gone against the
Pacers more so than the next in the first couple
of games they have. I mean, you can just look
at the funnel in the NBA's own final two minute
report those kinds of things, but that is never the
reason that you win or lose playoff games in the aggregate.
Maybe one game somewhere, one time with one bad call
in the final few minutes. We saw that earlier this playoffs.
(25:18):
But overall, when you're talking about there's seventy eight calls
or whatever it was, that that's not what makes the
difference over a course of a series. What makes the
difference is if you take advantage of your opportunities. And
we're going to have to see the Pacers buckle down
and do that at home, otherwise they're cooked.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
The reality with American sports is the NFL is pushing
its product globally but gets its employees domestically. Yes, whereas hockey, baseball,
in the NBA, especially basketball increasingly is becoming European based.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Now it's good for the talent and skill level.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Hockey's never been faster, baseball's never been deeper, Basketball's never
had seven footers all hitting threes. But it's not always
great in terms of domestic ratings. So the NBA is
going to get their money. It's got stars, it's fast paced,
young people like at apparel company. It's gonna get money.
But I do think it's it needs a face. I
(26:14):
think Aunt Edwards, and I didn't think this a year ago.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
I think he I think his game is more refined.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I think his ability to go to KD and say
trash talk just enough. I wonder if NBA's pretty good
about five. You know, they didn't do it with the
honest They put his playoff games on NBA TV. It
does feel like we're watching the next face and this
is like the opening chapter and twenty years will go
(26:43):
remember the Denver series?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Absolutely, man, is that what you see?
Speaker 9 (26:46):
So?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (26:46):
I like he's got the chrisma off the charts right,
and the way he plays is so engaging. He brings
you in every time he goes up to the basket.
He's got no fear. He's just an exciting player to watch.
The shoe I think he's got the number one selling
shoe in America. Commercials are good. I mean, it's a
lot of that. You know, we make these early Michael
Jordan comparisons, and he said the other day I can
(27:07):
never have the career of Jordan, and I think that
is correct. I think to your point about the international game,
it is a different deeper league, no Ques, when you
look at the number of guys who coming from other
countries who are winning MVP, who are in the MVP race.
Shake Kilds was Alexander by the way, from Canada. Even
he's not American, so by the way, you are getting
just a deeper pool of talent to compete with. It's
(27:28):
not the league where mj won six, it's not the
league even where Kobe won five, and so I don't
think anyone can have that career again. But we are
seeing a guy who looks like Michael Jordan looked in
his early years. No question, that is undeniable, right. And
it's not just on the court, although it is on
the court, it's everything else that you're talking about. He
is a star in the old fashioned sense and it's
(27:50):
really exciting to watch.
Speaker 5 (27:52):
We'll see, you.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Know, I will say this. Here's the other advantage, Michael,
it took a while to get the right coach. It
feels Aunt has his. Also, the Celtics and the Pistons
were living breathing dynasties. There is no one in the West.
We thought Denver could be it, and it looks like
Denver is, you know, a Raptor story, closer to a Raptor.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Story than a warrior's dynasty.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
I think they're better than that, but they could be
a one and done or maybe a two title team.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
So that's the advantage.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
It took Jordan, you know, he spent a lot in
college and then it was I mean, you forget when
you watch the documentary, is a long road. There's a
lot of getting tackled by the pistons. So the advantage
this kid has is, oh, he could be good like
if he won this year. Wow, now you're ahead of
Michael un just significantly ahead.
Speaker 9 (28:43):
And by the way, if I were any of these
younger players, if I was Luca, if I was an Aunt,
I would get my winning in now. Because I am
still going to sit here in this chair every week
and tell you I think that Victor Weben Yama is coming.
I think he is going to end up again health injuries.
We don't know what happens, but it all goes as expected.
Did a top five to ten player of all time,
and so I would get my titles in now. And
(29:06):
I think that Aunt Edwards certainly has a chance to
do that. He's got a great team around him too,
and he's got the advantage of that. And we can't
forget that he's got a coach that he really responds to.
He's got Karl Anthony Towns, he's got an upcoming four
time Defensive Player of the Year in Rudy Gobert. I
mean the whole concept. He's got a great bench, he's
got Mike Conley, who's been one of the best playoff performers,
and just teammates and leaders that we've had in the
(29:27):
last two decades. So he's got every advantage and then
he's taking advantage. And I think that those two things
combined is we're seeing winner. This kid's at winner.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Finally, my opening rant about an hour and a half
ago was that we may be in an era in
the NBA which I grew up with, the seventies Sonics,
Blazers Warriors. They were called the Bullets back then, Elvin Hayes,
West Unseld, Kevin Greevy. The teams were very good, they
weren't great, Yeah, and I think we're staring at a
(29:56):
bunch of very goods. I think all of us felt
like Boston could be the one great and then I
watched them continually get whacked at home. They have a
five hundred hole that's historically bizarre.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Yeah, as a.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Dominant team, they're five hundred at home. All dynasties roll
at home, and I think you know what, in an
era of good. They're very good, but losses like last
night are adding up, Rachel, and I'm like, maybe we
have put them at about to be great, and maybe
they have two players that are closer to Pippen than
(30:33):
Kobe and Michael and they're gonna win a title. But
have we gone like we do with the Cowboys every
year we've ratcheted up this when they're just very good.
Speaker 9 (30:43):
I mean, I'm very curious your take on the mental
aspect of this team because you have seen it and it's
not just in basketball, right, so you've watched it across
sports teams that have almost gotten there and not and
what that does to you. Because the Boston Celtics, let's
not forget, have made the conference finals five of the
last seven years. That's spectacic. Yes, I mean, that's incredible.
Think about the franchises around the NBA who've had so
(31:05):
much hope and promise and thunder and noise and media
attention and haven't been able to match anywhere near that. However,
they haven't been able to get it done. They only
advanced to the finals once out of all those times,
and they completely fell apart at the end of that
very really.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Have the control of the series through about three games
and then fell apart.
Speaker 9 (31:22):
Right, So what mental effect does that have on the
team and what effect does it have on the fans.
I mean, Jason Tatum got up on the podium after
last night's game and he goes, I know we're expected
to be perfect or some version of that, and I'm
sure it feels that way to him because here they
are a team that's made the conference finals five of
the last seven years, and every time they lose the game, people, oh, see,
the Celtics aren't for real. But the problem is when
you don't get the ultimate goal done, even the middle
(31:45):
part starts to feel sometimes a little bit squishy. Yeah,
and I think they are feeling the loss of kristevs Porzingis,
and Mobiley took advantage of that last night. Donovan Mitchell,
who is a star, had a fantastic second half, and
they're gonna have to work for it in this series
because christ is not expected to be back. I mean,
that's what we're seeing in the Denver series too. By
the way, I think that Nikolaiokic does have the medal
(32:06):
to lead Denver to be a dynasty, except for he's
got to have someone like Murray next to him. And
Murray is clearly hurt. So is Kris Stabs being hurt
in this Celtics series? Is that what is going to
do the Boston in or are they going to be
able to get through here and maybe get him back
into conference finals if they get there.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Again, let's button it up with this. So Byron Scott
is viewed as part of the Laker family. Sure, he coached,
he played. It's a very much a small business. Genie
runs like a small business. And if your family your family.
Norm Nixon's part of it. Worthy, I mean, Kobe's agent
became GM. That's what the Lakers are. And Byron Scott says,
(32:45):
just make Lebron the coach. I'm like, well, that's a
family member. Now it may be a second cousin this, yes,
but it's a family member former coach too.
Speaker 9 (32:53):
As you said, he's more that job.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
What did you make of that comment?
Speaker 9 (32:57):
I look, you know an off handed cogt. I would say,
we haven't seen that in the NBA quite some time.
We have seen it before, but.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Uh, Lenny Wilkins or Bill Russell, Yeah.
Speaker 9 (33:06):
Bill Russell. So there you go, like to me, the
Lakers problem was also not a coaching problem. I put
that in the same frank vocal camp. Now, if you
lose both stars, both Lebron James and Anthony Davis made
it clear that that Darvenham had lost them, and then
it is hard to bring him back. However, the Lakers
have had six coaches in thirteen years, and my hope
(33:29):
with whoever they do bring in next is that they
back him for the long haul, because there will always
be bumps in the roads. There will be always times
when your stars don't completely buy in to what you
are doing. It's natural players get frustrated. High talented players
who know what they can accomplish get frustrated, and then
they should and you need not only a guy who
can bring it all together, but an organization who backs him.
(33:50):
And my hope is that whoever they find for this
job is someone that the organization feels it can stand behind,
so that even in those rough moments sometimes you need
the front office to stay to the star. Hey work
it out. Because this guy's here and we think that
he's doing. An office thought that and we don't think
he's the problem. Well, but that's not as the Lakers
are set up, which is kind of how you end
up with six coaches in thirteen years. And I do
(34:14):
wonder if they can bring someone in who is good
enough to merit that from the front office, because I
do think stability. Now they're in another position where they've
got to find someone who I don't think you want
a first time head coach in that situation, and the
other guys are getting snapped off the board. You know,
Jason Kidd has to write Lebron a thank you note
because he just got a contract extension that was pretty
(34:35):
much a result of the fact that the Lakers are
looking for another coach. Tyleru is going to get a
very hefty contract extension that will be in part because
you know, the amount of it, not that he's getting it,
but the amount of it will come down to the
fact that the Lakers are sitting there definitely coveting him
as well. So who are you getting to fill that job?
Who is going to give you something that Darvin Ham
(34:55):
didn't give you?
Speaker 4 (34:56):
And I'm curious who it's going to be.
Speaker 9 (34:57):
I don't know. I can't pick a name out there
and say I thin think Mark Jackson is interesting. I
think Scottie Brooks is interesting, but I do wonder who
it is who they think is interesting, and then they
can really stand behind because there will be more ups
and downs.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
That's just what's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Well, the Lakers roster construction is ruey and d Lo
can be inconsistent, and then you get inconsistent performance because
you have inconsistent players, and Darvin gets blamed. Thanks for
carrying me today, Rachel Nichols, please please, So I ad
a cigar flu game on Tuesday that Jason had to
carry me.
Speaker 9 (35:28):
Okay, so this is the key Lime Pie game.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
This is the key Lime Pie most people, it's a
night out in the town key Lime Pie and half
a cigar knocks me out.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
There we go, I'm a weak man. Now we have support.
Now we know, now we know
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox
Sports Radio in noon to three Eastern nine am to
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Here we go on a Friday, Many things on the docket,
live in Los Angeles.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
It's the Herd.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Wherever you may be and however you may be listening.
Thanks for making us part of your day, jamac. The
Boston Celtics are weird. They're a weird team. I think
I've found what I'm looking for when it comes to
the Celtics. The analogy, I'll get to that in a second.
(00:56):
Twelve and a half point favorites and you get beat
by twenty four at home.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Not a good look for Boston. But he's the MAVs
cancer and NAT's cancer form lost.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Books off that, so Boston has arguably. The Celtics have
arguably been the best team in the NBA record wise
for three years right, and they regularly historically bizarre regularly
get throddled at home regular season in playoffs. The last
three years at home in the playoffs, they have a
(01:26):
five hundred record. And I'm thinking in a league in
an era of good like the seventies, we've had five
different title teams in five years. This year could be
the sixth and six years. Boston is just they're pretty good.
Maybe they're very good, but they're not great, and everybody
(01:47):
keeps waiting for great and they're not great. They're not special,
they're not elite. I mean, this happens to very good teams,
and Boston is very good. They don't have a Shack
in his prime. They don't have an MJ of Magic.
They don't have a Kobe, I'd argue today, they don't
have an Ant Edwards. They have Jason Tatum, who, to
be honest with you, sometimes has almost a role player's mentality.
(02:11):
I mean, last night they were twelve and a half
point favorites, lost by twenty four. That's the largest playoff
loss in thirty years by a double digit home favorite.
That's insane is some of this They just feast on
the East, and the East is really really bad. They've
been doing this for years. They were forty one and
(02:32):
eleven against the East this year. Yet on this three
year Celtics run, they have one finals appearance and they
got beat Have they become the Dallas Cowboys where they
have a coach that we don't really believe in, They
have a huge brand which translates to massive expectations. We
(02:53):
give them credit for being better than they are, and
they have a leader that is unquestionably very good Dak
and Tatum, but sometimes very questionably great. Again, is a
lot of this. The Cowboys have beaten up on bad teams,
often in division Giants and Commanders, and Boston's largely beaten
(03:16):
up on the lousy East. I mean the Boston Celtics
are not only beating up in the East. Think about
the New York Knicks. Their two best players are hobbled.
Their two other best players arguably are out Julius Randall,
Mitchell Robinson. And they're gonna win a playoff series another
in the East. Could they win one in the West.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So I think the Cowboys and the Celtics, the difference
is we've really come to understand what the Cowboys are.
The Celtics were not there yet great special, elite all
time teams are not getting throttled by twenty four at
home and have a five hundred home playoff record in
(03:58):
the last three years. I think a lot of this
is we have a leader who's unquestionably very good. We
think every time the Celtics have a great player like
a KG or a Bird, they win titles. A Magic
Kobe shack out West, you win titles.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I mean, going into last night, what was Tatum the
third leading score on the Celtics in the playoffs?
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
After the game, Tatum was asked if Celtic fans are
just spoiled.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
I mean, that's the narrative that you might see on TV,
the idea that we have a super team. It's twofold, right.
We didn't have a Coach of the Year, we didn't
have MVP, we only had two All Stars, So say
we're a super team, but you know we didn't get
rewarded like we are. We know we got a good team.
(04:51):
We're not perfect. We played it right way more often
than not, and we know we gotta be better.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I'm not asking for perfection to get throttled at home
by a slightly better than average Eastern Conference team when
you're a twelve and a half point favorite to be
five hundred at home in the playoffs the last three
years against the Eastern teams, not against the much better
Western teams, as against Eastern teams. Maybe they're just very
(05:20):
good in an era of good. I thought this was interesting.
Perception is a powerful thing, but it's not reality, although
sometimes it becomes reality. Somebody gets paid based on perception.
Those are what we call bad general managers and bad
owners in pro sports. So Jared Goff is a quarterback
(05:44):
for Detroit and Brad Holmes very very shrewd, very smart
GM one of my favorites in the NFL. They've built
a powerhouse. I've said before the Lions are the Niners,
just younger Hall of Fame level talents to me, just
younger by about five years a player. But Brad Holmes
(06:07):
said on Radio Detroit, we are gonna get this golf
extension done.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
He's earned an extension, and it's it's it's important, it's
it's a hot priority for us, and both sides are
working really really hard. But these things just kind of
take a while, especially with the quarterback market. But I
do have faith that it's going to get done.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
But it's interesting how GoF is viewed by the public
and the media and how Tua is Golf should get
the extension.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
I wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
I wouldn't give two a one for four reasons. Number one,
golf never gets hurt. Golf's been to two conference championships
and a Super Bowl. Golf is the bigger, taller athlete
six four to six foot, and he's less dependent on
a single head coach. GoF is one with two. But
Tua went to a college football power, had a cool
(07:06):
slogan attached to his name, Tank for Tua has a brilliant,
clever offensive coach, plays in ideal outdoor weather all the
time down south, and has the fastest guy in the
world as a wide receiver. But GoF is better and
there's no question, and Brad Holmes, this is a real thing.
Sees through the hype Tua. He's got a lot of
(07:27):
snazzy furniture in the house, the coaches, the wide receivers.
But if you take the snazzy furniture out, what's the house?
Goff I like the foundation of it. He's taken amor
on Saint Brown and helped make him a star seven years,
six playoffs, and I think there's a real thing here.
If you ask the fans, and you ask a lot
(07:49):
of the media, they view these as equal or two
is better, but the sharpest GM one of them in
the NFL. They're getting this thing done fast to a thing.
They're still reluctant. And so two was a little bit
like that Miami speedboat. It's flashy, but it's seasonal. Jared
Goff's the pickup truck. It works in all weather. This
(08:12):
morning I went and looked, and this is a real thing.
We talked about this about two A couple days ago.
I went and found golf and Tua in weather under
forty five degrees that is January February, December. Football golf
ninety passer rating, winning record, still a very viable quarterback,
(08:33):
four to one TD'D interception ratio. Tua plummets. You got
to give the extensions to the guys that are all terrain,
all weather, the pickup trucks. December, January February, and that
is GoF He's not flashy, he didn't come with a
(08:55):
cool slogan, didn't run around a lot. Everybody wishes he
was a little stronger and heavier. But the job of
the great gms in basketball and football is cut through
the hype and the fandom and get to the reel
and GoF is really really good. Tua just depends on
(09:17):
the weather. Jay Mac, I know you don't love that take,
but we went digging this morning, and I think it's
interesting because the perception on Tua on a flashier team.
I mean, the Lions are built mostly behind a great
offensive line. They've done a great job to find running backs, linebackers,
tight ends, fourth round receivers. But once again, Goff, two
(09:39):
different coaches, two divisions, two systems, has gotten two teams
to conference championships. He's not quarterback dependent or weapon dependent.
He's winning with amor on Saint Rohon. He won with
Cooper Kupp, he won with McVeigh. He wins with Dan Campbell,
two systems, multiple coordinators, two divisions, and he wins again.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Oh boy, quarterback wins to start the show. Oh listen.
I thought the golf bad weather thing was interesting because
historically he had been bad.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
He's now now He's not as good. He's better in
better weather in adult obviously, but he is more than viable.
B plus plus to a plummet.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Sure, now I did look it up though. Early in
Golf's career, you know, on his rookie year at the Rams,
he was putrid in poor weather, like very bad. Maybe
he's gotten better now that he's like.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Well, which should be noted.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, the first year he had maybe the worst offensive staff.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
In the league, Jeff Fisher.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
It was Jeff Fisher, right.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah, and that and those numbers, If you take just
those numbers out, it's pretty remarkable how often he wins
a lot and is really really good all the time.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
So what's his price point is hem? I mean, given
he's most so much better than Doua, is he a
forty five million dollars year?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Oh? No, I think you get into the five is
the first number. I think Jared Goffs the top ten quarterback.
I think you get into the five is the first number.
And I'm comfortable with that.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
So golf five, what's the first number for Jordan Love
and Tua?
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Jordan Love I would like to see eight seven, eight
more starts and then if we have to talk five,
I'm okay with that.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Low five.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Golf low five, and Tua I'm not there, not even
in the fours.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
No.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
By the way, if you're in the threes, you're one
of the highest paid humans on the planet. So the
let's not you know, this is not a TUA can't
play at all. Now you can play, I know. But
I'm trying to define the difference between perception and reality.
The perception on golf is low. The reality on Tua
is clear. But yet, what's the story, what's the what's
(11:44):
the belief? Well?
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Too was sexier, right, he was an MVP candidate.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Of Defense's motion speed fast, crazy over there, and they
just six yards in Detroit. Six yards in Detroit. Always
make the right three, keep the quarterback. It's not it's
a pickup trucks. Not not as exhilarating.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
I like that analogy, all right.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Another player pokes Russell Wilson. It never ends, And Luca
won last night. Did you see the stat on Luca.
Do you see the remarkable stat on Luca? That was
the lowest ball usage rate game of the year. Forum,
(12:29):
And look how good Dallas looked. Isn't that amazing? Less
Luca better, Luca better team? Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 4 (12:38):
It's certainly interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd weekdays
and Noone Eastern non am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio
FS one and the iHeartRadio app Listen.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I'm never gonna criticize athletes who have strong opinions. Try
not to because they're giving us content and we want
them to not be cliche machines. But Russell Wilson, now
a Steeler, form you Seahawk and Nebroncos stands alone. It's
so interesting to me. Stands alone. He is the only star.
The production tells you he was a star, nine time
(13:10):
Pro Bowl or two Super Bowls, has a trophy that's
a star. Yet it's hard to find a player, any
player that will publicly ever say anything nice about him.
They poke, they tweak, they criticize. Here's the latest. Chris Harris,
twelve year, very very good player, played a lot of
it in Denver. Was on radio recently saying, Hey, Russell
(13:33):
Wilson needs to be a game manager, that's all he is.
In Pittsburgh.
Speaker 7 (13:38):
I think it was a lot of plays out there
that Russ miss and Seana had some great cause, of
course Sean had.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
He had a couple of bad days. You know what
happens as a head coach.
Speaker 7 (13:48):
But I think he had the right schemes, he had
the right place to be able to get these guys
open and to make plays. A lot of times Russ
held the ball a lot, you know, cousin extra sacks,
killing dry you know, and kind of missing a lot
of big throws.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
You just don't hear players saying that about like stars
that are still playing in the NFL. So maybe some
of it is. Russell Wilson doesn't poke back, so it's
easy to poke him.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
You won't get any heat back.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
But clearly a lot of players see him as robotic, inauthentic.
I say that because they've said that, but it's interesting.
Aaron Rodgers may alienate everybody, but man, he's got a
lot of guys. He got media people that like him
and cover him and he's their guy. And he's got players.
David Baktiari, great player, Randall Cobb. He's got his guys.
(14:38):
Russell Wilson. Name one guy that's a Russell Wilson guy.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
I looked it up this morning.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
He had a very small wedding, one hundred people. It
was only two players. I hadn't heard of one. It's
just different. So it's interesting. We were talking as a
team this morning. Russell is so polished, it's almost like
he's been workshopped and focus grouped. You never see any
and Brady was polished, but if he was pissed, you
saw it all the time. And so and I think
(15:06):
the way Denver ended really sums up the mystery, or
maybe it's not a mystery of Russell Wilson. So the
feeling was in Denver last year, Yet Russell really cost us.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
I looked it up.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
He was eight and passer rating ninth in touchdown passes
with no run game. Denver's defense was twenty ninth in
the league. Couldn't stop a cult twenty ninth, and Russell
got the blame. He wasn't Mahomes. He's pretty good. I
watched all their games. It's pretty good. I mean they
(15:43):
they have a run game. The defense was terrible. He
was almost five hundred. But who took the blame for
Russell Wilson.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd Weekdays
and Noone Easter not a em Pacific.
Speaker 8 (16:00):
Hey, I'm Doug Gottlieb. The podcast is called All Ball.
We usually talk all basketball all the time, but it's
more about the stories about what made these people love
their sport and all the interesting interactions along the way.
We talked to coaches, we talked to players, We tell
you stories. You download it, you listen to it. I
think you like it. Listen to All Ball with Doug
(16:23):
Gottlieb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
All right, here we go, it's our two. We're live
in Los Angeles. It's the herd. Wherever you may be
and however you may be listening. Thanks for making us
part of your day. Rachel Nichols covered the NBA since
ninety three. Friend of the Show FS one is joining us.
I just found out, so I did something last night
that I don't do a lot of. But Rachel not
going to go too far into the family history here,
(16:52):
but she is. Her brother's a big shot in Los
Angeles in the culinary industry, which is I have at
least been to every one of his restaurants once and
they're all amazing.
Speaker 9 (17:03):
That's very kind. This is this is great. This means
that finally I can hook you up with something as
opposed to usually where you're you're spreading the red carpet
for all of us.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Well, he the restaurant group he's with his phenomenal but
it was you know, you have to travel a lot,
and I try to eat right, but it's hard.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, And so last night I went with the kids.
Speaker 9 (17:23):
And so what exactly did what? What did you in?
What part of the meal did you in?
Speaker 3 (17:28):
Well?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Instead of just ordering like an entree, the kids all
wanted like twelve different plates and shareable. And I've discovered
that doesn't work for my body. I can't do key
lime pie in front of ribs and then noodles and
rice and then a cocktail.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
And I woke up.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
This morning and I'm like, I felt like I went
sparring last night my body, and the food was phenomenal.
I won't I don't want to give away anything, but
I just say the food was phenomenal. But I have
found I'm I'm a very simple man, intellectually, emotionally and
now in a culinary fashion.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I need this this that I'm out.
Speaker 9 (18:06):
All right, all right? So I won't bring you kilan
pinek speak when I come on again.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Probably not best for me.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So first of all, the Suns are going to hire
Mike Budenholzer. That's the report yeah, what went wrong with Vogel.
I had gotten a source last night that said, you know,
some of the players.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
It's hard. You didn't get all buy in.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, three stars. You got to get buy in from
at least two. Is that what you're hearing?
Speaker 9 (18:33):
Sure, but I mean no losing team has buy in
from everyone. That's what happens, right, Winning papers over everything,
losing shows all the seams. To me, this is a
bit of moving deck chairs around. I'm not going to
call the Suns the Titanic. I would not go that far,
but there is a little bit of like, we can't
really do anything else. They have one draft, one first
round draft pick for the next six years, just one
(18:55):
this coming year and this summer, and that's it. So
they don't have roster flexibility. They've got these three huge contracts.
They don't really have the ability to make a lot
of changes to the supporting cast. You're not going to
fire the owner that just came in and as the
one behind all these changes, And it's not really fair
to fire the front office because James Jones didn't make
those trades. I mean he physically made them and he
(19:16):
facilitated them, but it was at the owner's directive. So
really the only guy to make a change it is
in the coach's seat. I do not think Frank Vogel
deserved to be fired. This is a championship coach and
I think it's going to be a mistake. But then again,
Mike Buttenholzer is a very good coach. I just don't
see him being able to do more than Frank Vogel
did in this situation. If the Suns have better health
(19:38):
next year, that will certainly help them. So that's something
they can do without having to make any roster changes.
But they're still stuck with an extremely top heavy team
and at least one aging superstar.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
We say this all the time. Is that you know
people want to hold you to a level of perfection.
NFL general managers who are great.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Miss all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yes, And what you can do is double down on
wrong The Giants on Daniel Jones probably a reach. Don't
double down on it. I think you'd be doubling down here.
They don't have a point guard. The Beal thing's not working.
I think you can get a ton for Booker, draft picks, capital,
get younger around Kevin Durant Beale, You can't move Bill
(20:19):
as contract. Yeah, to me, this feels a little New
York Giant where it's yeah, the construction doesn't work, let's
fire the coach and double down on it. I don't
think this team when I watch Minnesota play and okay,
see play and Dallas playing better than you think, and Denver,
this doesn't feel like a championship team.
Speaker 9 (20:38):
I to me, if you are going to make a
big move, it's Kevin Durant who I would move if
I were in that front office. And I'm sure that
Kevin doesn't want to be moved again after all of
the moving around he's done and the criticism he gets
for that. But Devin Booker is still a star in
the prime of his career. Yes, And I'm not sure
you're getting anyone better than him. I'm not sure you're
going to develop anyone better than Devin Booker has already
(21:01):
developed into. So why not keep him and then move
some of the other big, big pieces around. And unfortunately
Bradley BeO, as you point out, he has a no
trade clause, it's not worng and no real trade value
right now, and for what you get for him. And
so I think if you are going to make a
huge move. If I were in the front office, it
would be Kevin Durant, but I don't anticipate them doing that.
They've really signaled that they're going to stay with those
(21:22):
three guys and see what else they can do, And
I guess one of those things is changing the voice
in the locker room. And if they have better health,
Mike Budenolzer will look like a genius. But I don't
expect them to win a championship with this roster that's
so top heavy.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
So if you're the New York Knicks, there are two
avenues that are interesting. First of all, Boston looks infinitely,
if not beatable, you can compete with them.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Yes, we didn't think that.
Speaker 9 (21:48):
They don't look convincible, that's right.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
And the other thing is the East is going to
get better next year. Dame and Yannis should be healthy,
Philadelphia's got a ton of cap room and draft picks.
Boston will still be good. Orlando may out a piece.
So you can look at the Knicks and go, this
is the beginning, or you can say the East is
(22:12):
gonna get better. It's it's really weak this year. So
I think they're fascinating. Rachel because there is an almost
a collegiate feel to them. There is a culture. We
talk heat culture, but it's Tibbs culture. You gotta be
careful who you bring in now. Booker I think works,
but Phoenix doesn't want to move him. Durant, I'm not
(22:35):
sure it. What what do you make of the Knicks going?
We know they're competitive, now, we don't think they're a
title team.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Now they're all beat up.
Speaker 9 (22:43):
I was gonna say it's hard right now because there's
just so many guys worked.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
But they're the talk of the league.
Speaker 9 (22:49):
Oh, they're thrilling to worry. I mean literally thrilling to
watch play. And I don't care who you are unless
you're a fan of the other team that's currently playing.
You're having fun watching this Nick's walk because they're not
only winning, they're so scrappy. They're playing basketball the way
you want people to play basketball. They're tough as nails,
they're rebounding. You know, Josh Hart has played more minutes
(23:11):
in playoff games than any other player in forty five years.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
That's the stat.
Speaker 9 (23:17):
It's been forty five years since the mergers doubled, and
by the way, it's probably before that too. But I'm
just going since the Aba murder, no one else has
played more per game than he has. So look, you
love to watch them play, but you do think that
they need deeper. They need a little bit more. If
they just got their players back, by the way, I
think that they could make a run to the finals
(23:38):
this year. Right, if they had Julius Randall, if they
had Ojananobi, who looks like we're not going to see
him in the next game. You know, if they had
full health, I would put them up against anyone in
the Eastern Conference this year. But they will have room
to make some moves. Unlike the Suns, they're not hamstrung,
and it is interesting to see who's going to go.
I think that they would be better off making a
(23:58):
smaller move, like the margin has been bandied about.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Right, doesn't need the ball in his hands all I.
Speaker 9 (24:04):
Need the ball as opposed to bringing in some big,
flashy player. Now for Kevin Durant's story, I always thought
that Kevin Durant should have gone to the knicks instead
of the nets. So for me watching Kevin Durant, I'd
like to see him kind of write that wrung a
great story, But I don't know if that's what's best
for New York. I just think that that would be
great for Kevin Durant's story. I do know that Kevin
Durant just wants to play basketball, and that is the
(24:26):
common denominator in that Knicks locker room. And it will
be interesting to see not only who they bring in
this summer, but where they end up this time in
this series. I still don't know what's going to happen
in this PACER's nixt series. The Pacers keep seeming like
they're being handed health advantages and yet they're not coming through.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
And it was just so crazy to me that Rick
Carlisle went after refs and small markets when Brunson and
Og were hurt, Randall, Mitchell, Robinson gone. It was there
for the taking and that was the easy win of
the first two.
Speaker 9 (24:58):
Look, look, I do think that some gone against the
Pacers more so than the next in the first couple
of games they have. I mean, you can just look
at the funnel in the NBA's own final two minute
report those kinds of things, but that is never the
reason that you win or lose playoff games in the aggregate.
Maybe one game somewhere, one time with one bad call
in the final few minutes. We saw that earlier this playoffs.
(25:18):
But overall, when you're talking about there's seventy eight calls
or whatever it was, that that's not what makes the
difference over a course of a series. What makes the
difference is if you take advantage of your opportunities. And
we're going to have to see the Pacers buckle down
and do that at home, otherwise they're cooked.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
The reality with American sports is the NFL is pushing
its product globally but gets its employees domestically. Yes, whereas hockey, baseball,
in the NBA, especially basketball increasingly is becoming European based.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Now it's good for the talent and skill level.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Hockey's never been faster, baseball's never been deeper, Basketball's never
had seven footers all hitting threes. But it's not always
great in terms of domestic ratings. So the NBA is
going to get their money. It's got stars, it's fast paced,
young people like at apparel company. It's gonna get money.
But I do think it's it needs a face. I
(26:14):
think Aunt Edwards, and I didn't think this a year ago.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
I think he I think his game is more refined.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I think his ability to go to KD and say
trash talk just enough. I wonder if NBA's pretty good
about five. You know, they didn't do it with the
honest They put his playoff games on NBA TV. It
does feel like we're watching the next face and this
is like the opening chapter and twenty years will go
(26:43):
remember the Denver series?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Absolutely, man, is that what you see?
Speaker 9 (26:46):
So?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (26:46):
I like he's got the chrisma off the charts right,
and the way he plays is so engaging. He brings
you in every time he goes up to the basket.
He's got no fear. He's just an exciting player to watch.
The shoe I think he's got the number one selling
shoe in America. Commercials are good. I mean, it's a
lot of that. You know, we make these early Michael
Jordan comparisons, and he said the other day I can
(27:07):
never have the career of Jordan, and I think that
is correct. I think to your point about the international game,
it is a different deeper league, no Ques, when you
look at the number of guys who coming from other
countries who are winning MVP, who are in the MVP race.
Shake Kilds was Alexander by the way, from Canada. Even
he's not American, so by the way, you are getting
just a deeper pool of talent to compete with. It's
(27:28):
not the league where mj won six, it's not the
league even where Kobe won five, and so I don't
think anyone can have that career again. But we are
seeing a guy who looks like Michael Jordan looked in
his early years. No question, that is undeniable, right. And
it's not just on the court, although it is on
the court, it's everything else that you're talking about. He
is a star in the old fashioned sense and it's
(27:50):
really exciting to watch.
Speaker 5 (27:52):
We'll see, you.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Know, I will say this. Here's the other advantage, Michael,
it took a while to get the right coach. It
feels Aunt has his. Also, the Celtics and the Pistons
were living breathing dynasties. There is no one in the West.
We thought Denver could be it, and it looks like
Denver is, you know, a Raptor story, closer to a Raptor.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Story than a warrior's dynasty.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
I think they're better than that, but they could be
a one and done or maybe a two title team.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
So that's the advantage.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
It took Jordan, you know, he spent a lot in
college and then it was I mean, you forget when
you watch the documentary, is a long road. There's a
lot of getting tackled by the pistons. So the advantage
this kid has is, oh, he could be good like
if he won this year. Wow, now you're ahead of
Michael un just significantly ahead.
Speaker 9 (28:43):
And by the way, if I were any of these
younger players, if I was Luca, if I was an Aunt,
I would get my winning in now. Because I am
still going to sit here in this chair every week
and tell you I think that Victor Weben Yama is coming.
I think he is going to end up again health injuries.
We don't know what happens, but it all goes as expected.
Did a top five to ten player of all time,
and so I would get my titles in now. And
(29:06):
I think that Aunt Edwards certainly has a chance to
do that. He's got a great team around him too,
and he's got the advantage of that. And we can't
forget that he's got a coach that he really responds to.
He's got Karl Anthony Towns, he's got an upcoming four
time Defensive Player of the Year in Rudy Gobert. I
mean the whole concept. He's got a great bench, he's
got Mike Conley, who's been one of the best playoff performers,
and just teammates and leaders that we've had in the
(29:27):
last two decades. So he's got every advantage and then
he's taking advantage. And I think that those two things
combined is we're seeing winner. This kid's at winner.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Finally, my opening rant about an hour and a half
ago was that we may be in an era in
the NBA which I grew up with, the seventies Sonics,
Blazers Warriors. They were called the Bullets back then, Elvin Hayes,
West Unseld, Kevin Greevy. The teams were very good, they
weren't great, Yeah, and I think we're staring at a
(29:56):
bunch of very goods. I think all of us felt
like Boston could be the one great and then I
watched them continually get whacked at home. They have a
five hundred hole that's historically bizarre.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Yeah, as a.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Dominant team, they're five hundred at home. All dynasties roll
at home, and I think you know what, in an
era of good. They're very good, but losses like last
night are adding up, Rachel, and I'm like, maybe we
have put them at about to be great, and maybe
they have two players that are closer to Pippen than
(30:33):
Kobe and Michael and they're gonna win a title. But
have we gone like we do with the Cowboys every
year we've ratcheted up this when they're just very good.
Speaker 9 (30:43):
I mean, I'm very curious your take on the mental
aspect of this team because you have seen it and it's
not just in basketball, right, so you've watched it across
sports teams that have almost gotten there and not and
what that does to you. Because the Boston Celtics, let's
not forget, have made the conference finals five of the
last seven years. That's spectacic. Yes, I mean, that's incredible.
Think about the franchises around the NBA who've had so
(31:05):
much hope and promise and thunder and noise and media
attention and haven't been able to match anywhere near that. However,
they haven't been able to get it done. They only
advanced to the finals once out of all those times,
and they completely fell apart at the end of that
very really.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Have the control of the series through about three games
and then fell apart.
Speaker 9 (31:22):
Right, So what mental effect does that have on the
team and what effect does it have on the fans.
I mean, Jason Tatum got up on the podium after
last night's game and he goes, I know we're expected
to be perfect or some version of that, and I'm
sure it feels that way to him because here they
are a team that's made the conference finals five of
the last seven years, and every time they lose the game, people, oh, see,
the Celtics aren't for real. But the problem is when
you don't get the ultimate goal done, even the middle
(31:45):
part starts to feel sometimes a little bit squishy. Yeah,
and I think they are feeling the loss of kristevs Porzingis,
and Mobiley took advantage of that last night. Donovan Mitchell,
who is a star, had a fantastic second half, and
they're gonna have to work for it in this series
because christ is not expected to be back. I mean,
that's what we're seeing in the Denver series too. By
the way, I think that Nikolaiokic does have the medal
(32:06):
to lead Denver to be a dynasty, except for he's
got to have someone like Murray next to him. And
Murray is clearly hurt. So is Kris Stabs being hurt
in this Celtics series? Is that what is going to
do the Boston in or are they going to be
able to get through here and maybe get him back
into conference finals if they get there.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Again, let's button it up with this. So Byron Scott
is viewed as part of the Laker family. Sure, he coached,
he played. It's a very much a small business. Genie
runs like a small business. And if your family your family.
Norm Nixon's part of it. Worthy, I mean, Kobe's agent
became GM. That's what the Lakers are. And Byron Scott says,
(32:45):
just make Lebron the coach. I'm like, well, that's a
family member. Now it may be a second cousin this, yes,
but it's a family member former coach too.
Speaker 9 (32:53):
As you said, he's more that job.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
What did you make of that comment?
Speaker 9 (32:57):
I look, you know an off handed cogt. I would say,
we haven't seen that in the NBA quite some time.
We have seen it before, but.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Uh, Lenny Wilkins or Bill Russell, Yeah.
Speaker 9 (33:06):
Bill Russell. So there you go, like to me, the
Lakers problem was also not a coaching problem. I put
that in the same frank vocal camp. Now, if you
lose both stars, both Lebron James and Anthony Davis made
it clear that that Darvenham had lost them, and then
it is hard to bring him back. However, the Lakers
have had six coaches in thirteen years, and my hope
(33:29):
with whoever they do bring in next is that they
back him for the long haul, because there will always
be bumps in the roads. There will be always times
when your stars don't completely buy in to what you
are doing. It's natural players get frustrated. High talented players
who know what they can accomplish get frustrated, and then
they should and you need not only a guy who
can bring it all together, but an organization who backs him.
(33:50):
And my hope is that whoever they find for this
job is someone that the organization feels it can stand behind,
so that even in those rough moments sometimes you need
the front office to stay to the star. Hey work
it out. Because this guy's here and we think that
he's doing. An office thought that and we don't think
he's the problem. Well, but that's not as the Lakers
are set up, which is kind of how you end
up with six coaches in thirteen years. And I do
(34:14):
wonder if they can bring someone in who is good
enough to merit that from the front office, because I
do think stability. Now they're in another position where they've
got to find someone who I don't think you want
a first time head coach in that situation, and the
other guys are getting snapped off the board. You know,
Jason Kidd has to write Lebron a thank you note
because he just got a contract extension that was pretty
(34:35):
much a result of the fact that the Lakers are
looking for another coach. Tyleru is going to get a
very hefty contract extension that will be in part because
you know, the amount of it, not that he's getting it,
but the amount of it will come down to the
fact that the Lakers are sitting there definitely coveting him
as well. So who are you getting to fill that job?
Who is going to give you something that Darvin Ham
(34:55):
didn't give you?
Speaker 4 (34:56):
And I'm curious who it's going to be.
Speaker 9 (34:57):
I don't know. I can't pick a name out there
and say I thin think Mark Jackson is interesting. I
think Scottie Brooks is interesting, but I do wonder who
it is who they think is interesting, and then they
can really stand behind because there will be more ups
and downs.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
That's just what's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Well, the Lakers roster construction is ruey and d Lo
can be inconsistent, and then you get inconsistent performance because
you have inconsistent players, and Darvin gets blamed. Thanks for
carrying me today, Rachel Nichols, please please, So I ad
a cigar flu game on Tuesday that Jason had to
carry me.
Speaker 9 (35:28):
Okay, so this is the key Lime Pie game.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
This is the key Lime Pie most people, it's a
night out in the town key Lime Pie and half
a cigar knocks me out.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
There we go, I'm a weak man. Now we have support.
Now we know, now we know
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