April 3, 2024 • 51 mins
With investigative pressure mounting on the Benton County Sheriff’s Office’s suspect in Dana Stidham’s murder, Phelps uncovers a disturbing phone call made to a local woman in charge of Dana’s tip-line. Meanwhile, Phelps continues to make connections to his new suspect. Phelps uncovers an old tape of a revealing interview with the man’s ex-wife.
Armed with new evidence, Phelps finally convinces the suspect to agree to an interview, a man he now believes is likely behind Dana Stidham’s murder, with jaw-dropping revelations made.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
A warning about this episode. It contained sexually violent, offensive,
extremely graphic language, yet vital to include when exploring the
facts of both Shawnas and Dana's cases. Grass is not
(00:30):
cut No one's around.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
But give it a shot.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
See what he has to say.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Jack Lenny is still a strong person of interest for
the murders of both Dana'stidham and Shawna. Garber I determined
the best way to approach him was a cold call,
a surprise knock on his door. Try to catch the
guy by surprise off his game. See if I can
(00:59):
tell who we he is before he can put up
a front to disguise himself. Today, Lenny lives in a
suburban neighborhood, each cookie cutter house like the one before it.
The town where he lives, which I am choosing not
to name, is between Belavis to Arkansas and Anderson, Missouri.
(01:21):
During the time of Dana's murder, he was living in Bentonville, Arkansas,
just a few miles from Dana's home, workplace, and where
Dana's body was found. He then moved to a different county,
just thirty five miles from Pineville, where Shawna's body was found.
The houses around Lennie's were well kept yards well maintained,
(01:44):
that is, all of them except for Linny's. In fact,
it appeared as though he'd abandon yard work and any
type of upkeep long ago.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Sheets are drawn and haler on the ground.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I stood for a while on his front steps and waited.
He was either not home or not answering. The windows,
quite strangely, were covered from the inside with newspaper, every
single one of them.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
No one seems to be home.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
With multiple daily newspapers left on the doorstep, wet and moldy,
I got a sense that no one had been home
in quite some time. I checked the garbage bin and
it hadn't been used for a while. Other than helping
me paint a mental picture of this guy, I struck
out this time. My surprise visit didn't yield the results
(02:44):
I'd hope for, but I could now begin calling Lenny
to see what he had to say and find out
if he'd even talk to me. I sensed he was
the type of guy who needed to explain himself, so
I was hopeful this. As the deeper I looked at Lenny,
the more evidence I found point to his alleged involvement
(03:07):
in two thirty plus year old cold murder cases previously
on Paper Ghosts.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
He said, we're going to start playing.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
Chess by mail, and he said, don't cheat.
Speaker 7 (03:27):
I thought, were what dare you? A serial killer?
Speaker 8 (03:32):
Moralized to be?
Speaker 4 (03:34):
There was probably like seventeen different types of twine that.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Were used to cocoon this young lady after.
Speaker 9 (03:41):
She had been murdered.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
None of them are impossible.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It was impossible and probably self trying.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
But this is going to be solved, and it will be.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist
and author of more than forty true crime books. This
season four of Paper Ghosts, the ozarks law enforcement studies
(04:14):
on cold casework have shown that the passage of time
can pose a serious threat to recall accuracy. In other words,
a witness's memory might produce inaccuracies because of the time
between the crime and the account provided to law enforcement.
This is why documentation, recorded interviews, and information gathered near
(04:37):
the time of the crime in real time becomes so
utterly vital to cold case investigation. At the end of
the last episode, you heard a prosecutor talk about evidence
found in Jacquelinese house during a search warrant over a
year after Dana's murder, spools of various ropes, cable and wire.
(04:59):
That search also uncovered some rather alarming forensic evidence, which
we're about to unpack in this episode. Before that, however,
I'd like to go back and look at two specific
significant events leading up to the execution of those warrants. First,
(05:19):
there was a disturbing phone call, unlike any of the
past calls you've heard that the BCSO thought might possibly
be connected to Dana Stidham's case. This call, which is
violent in content, made just after Dana went missing, felt
very significant and perhaps even an indication of things to come.
Speaker 10 (05:43):
Hello, this is understand.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
You're having an auction to raise money.
Speaker 10 (05:47):
Yes, that in PST the money for but we're trying
to raise money for the Stidham family. We hoped to
be able to raise enough money to help the family
out and start a reward fund. That money help us
find who killed Damis Didham?
Speaker 5 (06:01):
Are you finding to get involved in something like this?
Speaker 11 (06:06):
No?
Speaker 10 (06:06):
Not really, you should be Why is that?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
How do you like men to cut your t's off?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Terrified, the woman immediately hung up the phone. A second
call came in some time later.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
The caller alluded once again to the reward money, but
he was hard to understand. The woman was certain, however,
she was speaking to the same person.
Speaker 10 (06:34):
Who is this?
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Listen, bitch, I'm gonna stick my knife in you.
Speaker 12 (06:39):
Hey, you know where I'm at.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
She hung up the phone. A third call came in
soon after.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
You know what I'm going to do to you. You
have to be really hard. I'm going you so hard
you'll think my is gonna come out of your throat.
I cannot be waiting to show you. Oh listen, interest,
did you hear me? And you because you better listen?
God damn life, you and I'll never.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Find you.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
This time. He hung up the phone. You might be
wondering why these calls happened to be recorded, and that's
because the calls had been made to the tip line
set up for Dana's investigation. The woman called the BCSO
immediately after the third call. The BCSO interviewed right away.
(07:31):
Journalist Brandon Howard spoke with me about those disturbing calls
you just heard.
Speaker 7 (07:36):
I understand it was a family friend and worked at
the post office, which was really a caddy corner to
the grocery store with Dana work. You could ask it
from the same parking lot.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
The frightening part of Brandon's comment is that it's entirely
possible the caller was watching the woman from a payphone
overlooking the post office in the parking lot of Phillip's Grocery.
These calls were different from the previous ones explored throughout
the investigation, not only in context, but in how threatening
(08:11):
and serious they seemed. Violence was part of the caller's objective,
as was trying to instill fear and intimidate certain individuals
connected to Dana's case.
Speaker 7 (08:25):
Yeah, I think the phone call significant because it doesn't
seem like a typical phone call to the prank, which
I'm sure there were probably phone calls that were frames
involved in Dana's case. I think that's probably typical of
any case like this. But this is repeated phone calls
that I would argue grow more disturbing, and they are
pretty specific and the type of threats the caller delivers.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I asked Brandon for his insights about the caller.
Speaker 7 (08:51):
First thought was that it escalated from zero to one hundred,
like really quickly, seemingly in just a handful of phone
calls too. If you're comparing this to another suspect in
the case, possibly a high school classmate of Danas, it
doesn't seem like something a high schooler would do. And
(09:11):
to have an addendum to that, if there is the
possibility that he made a phone call to another woman
later in life, it doesn't seem to fit. Somewhat of
a jovial, not disturbing, sexual conversation he had with another woman,
nothing like this where there were threats of bodily armed
in escalation to violence. And the third part about it
(09:34):
is the phone call was paired with a voice lineup
and the woman post office selected a voice of a
suspect who later emerged the Dana's case that I think
is probably the best suspect of the group.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
During the woman's interview with BCSO detectives, they played a
voice lineup six different voices of six different men. Within
those six men was Jack Lenny's voice from that first
interview that BCSO had conducted with them. She immediately picked
(10:11):
Lenny's voice out of the lineup. This call also points
us away from the bcso's early target, Mike McMillan, because
whoever called into this tip line would have had access
to local information in order to know certain details. And
so the other part of it is, and you made
(10:31):
this point, which I think is very, very valid, it's
hard to believe that it could be Mike McMillan because
what do you have access to the daily record, right,
or even get that information from family and make the
call exactly.
Speaker 7 (10:49):
Yeah, the more I thought about that, to place the
context of the nineteen eighty nine phone calls, he would
have to have access to the daily newspaper in the area.
There was no Internet, social media, any of things that
we take for granted now.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Mike McMillan was not even in the state when the
calls were made into the tip line, which completely excludes
him as a potential source. And here's the thing about
Jack Linney's voice I need to underscore.
Speaker 7 (11:17):
She selected this voice, which I hate to say feather
in the cat, but stood out to me at least
because had a very unique speaking style, the result of
a bad accident that lets him with some brain damage,
so he had a slur list type of voice. And
I thought that really stood out because it would seem
(11:38):
like something somebody would remember from a phone call and
then they heard back again, they'd be more likely to choose.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
It to focus on Jack Lenny as a person of
interest in Dana Didham's murder, and fievably, Shauna Garber's went
from intense to laser focused in nineteen ninety three after
(12:06):
he was picked out of that voice lineup. Another fact
leading to the search warrants on Lenny's home and vehicle
was a second interview, which was more of an interrogation.
If you recall, the first Jack Lenney interview was rather
light handed and conducted during the information gathering phase of
(12:27):
the investigation. This second interview was more strategically designed to
get him to maybe admit to his possible role in
Dana's murder and start heading in the direction of positioning
him as potentially being involved in SHAWNA. Garber's Unfortunately, I
(12:47):
could not locate a recording of this second interview, but
was able to find a copy of a complete transcript. Additionally,
while I was in Bentonville, Arkansas, I met with someone
you heard at the end of the previous episode, the
former prosecutor who was part of the team interviewing Lenny
that second time. If I couldn't hear the interview myself.
(13:11):
The next best thing was to talk to someone.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Who was in the room.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And so you are.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Drew Miller right now, just said attorney in private practice.
So you're coming to me because I was a deputy
prosecuting attorney and the chief Deputy prosecuting Attorney in the
Benton County Prosecutor's Office September ninety one until January of
ninety five.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Drew has this Southern charm abottom that is hard not
to like. He works out of a sprawling office located
inside a Gothic style building reminiscent of a fifteenth century church.
Drew oversaw the Prosecutor's Office in Benton County and was
present for the search warrants and second longer interview the
(13:58):
BCSO conducted with Jack Lenny in nineteen ninety three. One
thing he cleared up for me was how the BCSO
had latched onto Lenny. Back in the first episode, I
talked about a man seen talking to Dana in the
parking lot of the Phillips. One report had the two
of them apparently arguing the guy who was with Dana
(14:22):
matched Lenny's description, and more importantly, when confronted about whether
he was in the parking lot on that July twenty
fifth afternoon, the last time Dana was seen, Lenny said, quote,
she might have even talked to me.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
So I think my recollection he was identified early on,
and then he surfaced again, maybe just to do due
diligence and making sure that they were going back to
reinterview everybody. But it seemed to me that when we
talked to this individual that there was some independent evidence
that they had found. I think they had found maybe
(15:01):
some maps or something that had come up that were
maybe in his vehicle, or that he had given them
or given somebody that had some locations of not only
where close proximity where Dana had disappeared, but some close
proximity where other individual unsolved murders had appeared, generally the
(15:22):
same type of criteria, female age, anywhere from twenty to
thirty five, And they had some confidence even before he
was interviewed, but they felt like that he was a
strong lead.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
In an earlier episode, I mentioned those maps which were
found in Lenny's vehicle and had the locations in town
clearly marked where Dana had visited or had been seen
on the day she disappeared, Why in the hell with
Jack Lenny maps marked with that sort of information. Here's
(16:05):
journalists Brandon Howard.
Speaker 11 (16:08):
He reportedly had several maps of Bellavista in his vehicle
that he initially said belonged to the newspaper, but detectives
were concerned because he had markings on the maps that
included the spot where Dana's car was found and the
grocery store where she worked at. He tries to pass
that off as that's the location where newspapers might be built,
but they have questions about that, since why would a
(16:30):
newspaper to be built on the side of the highway
or at a grocery store. He has no solid answer
to that response. He also has a bizarre outburst that
he has no idea about the Stideam homicide, seemingly in
an unrelated question that bears little to any relevation about
our case.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
He just, you know, red flags all over the place
with this guy.
Speaker 11 (16:50):
Yes, I don't need to laugh. Yeah, red flags. It's shocking.
I mean, if I was to check the box of
predator or deviant, this guy checks several of those boxes.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I mean, showing up at a store with a scheme, mask.
Speaker 11 (17:03):
On, telling the women you're horny as Hill. It's very
bizarre waiting for them in the parking lot, mentioning he
gave detailed answers about Dana's case, referred to her as
a really good looking person. That saddened him that people
like that are killed, never the ugly ones. In addition
to that, he mentions unprompted that Dana had might have
had a low tire which could have prompted him to
(17:24):
pull her over, but that wasn't mentioned by detectives in
the interview. It was public knowledge but not mentioned by
the textives in the interview.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
The plan during this second interview with Lenny was to
get him under oath to explain the circumstances, pointing the
BCSO in his direction. You heard the first interview, which
was very much an avenue for the BCSO to let
Lenny know they were coming after him. During that second interview,
(17:53):
Prosecutor Drew Miller explained Lenny rang several alarm bells without
ever being prompted, starting with agreeing to the interview in
the first place.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
They were wanting to pin him down, very surprised that
he wanted to come in. You know, my initial reaction is,
you know, this guy's coming in. Surely he's not the guy, right,
I mean, who does that? But the interview was everything
can be considered unusual, but from my perspective, it was
it was almost like he definitely wasn't afraid.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
The interview was conducted mostly by Danny Varner. Lenny, forty
six years old at the time, was cocky and smarmy,
answering questions in a sarcastic manner, as if he was
taunting law enforcement.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
I got the feeling during some course of that interview,
if Danny had the legal ability to wrap his hands
around his neck, he would have wrapped his hands around
his neck. But he he maintained it was just an
interesting interview because as I'm listen listening to him, it's
just not like I'm sure he denied it, but it
just really wasn't like he denied it, you know, It's
just like he just wanted to continue the conversation.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
What law enforcement found unquestionably disturbing, not to mention revealing,
was that Lenny himself brought the subject of Dana Stidham up.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
It's just as I sat there in the interview, my
feelings changed to I know something is going on with
this guy. I don't know what it is. I'm not
a doctor, I'm not a psychologist. I'm just trying to
get a read. But there was just something that was
clinically off.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
At one point, while referring to Dana, Lenny says, quote,
she was real good looking, and that's one of the
big things that always ticked me off. They always killed
the good looking once. They don't ever kill the old, fat,
ugly hog end quote. It's a shaming, demeaning, and humiliating
(19:59):
way to view women, especially when you're being questioned about
the murder of the young woman you are talking about.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Yeah, again, that would be a typical example, like in
some aspects, really incriminating, right if he says it the
right way or or the wrong way. But as you're
going for he says a lot of that stuff and
you're just going, why would he even go there?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
At one point, they pressed him about prior arrests, and
he mentioned a concealed weapon charge and also being accused
of stealing a police officer's gun. In an earlier episode,
we discussed the report from a witness claiming to have
seen Dana's carr being followed by a station wagon. At
(20:45):
the time, Lenny owned a station wagon fitting the description
which had been searched the week before this second interview. Inside,
they found blood on the front passenger seat, floorboard, carpets
on the backseat, along with several female hairs. So two
(21:06):
and two make four.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Again. At the time, I thought that there was enough
evidence to piece things together.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Next, Drew makeson a stoope point about motive, placing Lenny
into a very distinct, rare category of murderers, which begins
to point at him as a serious person of interest
in SHAWNA. Garber's murder as well, or at the least
someone who needs to be excluded.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Well, that's the problem with a serial killer, because number
one is motive, and with a serial killer, you don't
really have motive. And this, at least based on it's
the perception at the time and probably the perception now,
is it was a serial killer. Could have been somebody
that she known, but somebody that had done this before,
or there potentially was no way to string them together
(21:52):
individually as far as motive.
Speaker 8 (21:54):
So then the.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Next thing you need to prove his opportunity, and and
that's a tricky one because obviously the opportunity potentially existed,
but the longer a case goes on, you know, it's
very it's very difficult to prove that opportunity.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
The BCSO had already proved Lenny had the opportunity, was
in the area at the time and had no alibi
for that night. Furthermore, they spoke to his then wife
who said he would leave home for days at a
time and she had no idea where he was or
where he had gone.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
And then you get to the intent issue, and the
intent with regard to a serial killer is that is
just that. So it's almost like with a serial killer,
you got to you kind of got to build the bodies,
you know, I mean that's the worst part of it.
You got to connect as opposed to connecting the dots,
you got to connect the bodies. And so it's it's difficult,
I mean there because the number one thing that is
good in any kind of murder case is the motive,
(22:54):
and you really don't have it right, at least you
can't connect it right. So that's what that's what makes
these kind of difficult.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
A serial killer acts with impunity. Their number one motive
for killing is for the fun of it. Drew Miller's
point is incredibly valid. To catch a serial killer, it's
imperative to find a connection among his victims, which often
leads to evidence and simultaneously additional victims. And so over
(23:27):
the course of time, how did it progress with him?
Speaker 4 (23:29):
I don't know how long. I mean, I definitely know
Sedoriac he had a passion for it, and Barner had
a passion for it. And it's just like anything else,
just like any occupation, you know, the people that have
passion for it continue the fire when they when they're
not there to fan it is going to die. And
so that's why people that do cold cases, it's really
hard for them because they have to they have to
(23:50):
build that desire, you know, and they have to build
it from scratch. And some are really good at it,
you know. Some of them, you know, open the box
and they're they're all there. Some it takes away, I mean,
but if you like, what are you going to do?
Hand a young detective a thirty year old case and
say go investigate this, He's like, oh, Mike, what am
I going to be doing for the rest.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
Of my life?
Speaker 4 (24:09):
You know. So it's it's just a different it's just
a different situation, for.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Sure, Such an important comment, and one I think victims'
families need to hear investigators involved in a particular case
for ten, twenty, even thirty years ultimately retire, the new
team comes in and they lock onto another case, contemporary
(24:33):
or otherwise cold cases get put on a back burner,
not for any nefarious or personal reasons. It's just how
the system is designed. The squeaky wheels get the oil,
which is why it's so vital for victims' families to
keep whispering in the ears of law enforcement about their
cases without making accusations or becoming too bothersome or an annoyance.
(25:00):
I do understand how difficult a task this can become,
how utterly painful, how gut wrenching and frustrating when there
are no answers and law enforcement is seemingly not responding.
But oftentimes it's a matter of logistics, budgets, and new
cases taking precedence even when everyone is doing their best.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
With regard to this suspect, I'm confident that he was
watched in some sort of fashion. He was somewhat kept
track of.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
During his second interview, as investigators really began to drill
down into him. Lenny clearly enjoyed playing cat and mouse,
a pattern of his I would soon learn firsthand myself.
In one instance, Detective Danny Varner asks him if he
drove a station wagon and a pickup truck. Lenny responds
(25:56):
rather smartly, only one at a time. Then they ask
which roads he favored driving, and if he ever drove
on River Road in Pineville, Missouri, which would have been
a convenient cut through heading toward where he lived in Missouri,
then this route would have taken him directly by the
area where Seanna Garber's body was dumped. He plays dumb,
(26:21):
saying maybe not sure, sometimes I think so. Then they
ask him about a Texas license plate he had and
if he ever used it. His bizarre response to that
I don't know anything about Stidham, about the Stidham homicide,
(26:43):
or anything else, makes you wonder how he made that
leap from being asked about a license plate to responding
with defensiveness about a murder investigation naming the actual victim.
My guess is that if he had used that license
plate on the night of Dena's abduction and murder, that
(27:04):
he could be trying to get in front of the evidence,
thinking maybe somebody had reported seeing a Texas license plate.
Would you call him smart?
Speaker 4 (27:14):
I would not call myself smart. I don't call him
smart because I thought, I think this person did it,
and he was just allowed just he just was there
giving an interview.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
That's what I mean.
Speaker 12 (27:25):
It's like I couldn't figure him out. I just couldn't
figure him out. I would say, probably is one of
those people that, you know, this might be a characteristic.
Somebody might say if you ask in the parameters.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Or this characteristic, that he's smart.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
I think, given a nuclear award, is one of those
guys that are going to survive, you know, And that's
smarter than of itself. So smart an intelligent way where
he can add numbers or write a poem. No, but
if it came to survival, maybe smarter than the emotions.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
That makes sense. And it also sounds like you're going
down the psychology of a serial killer.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah, I was convinced.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Known as the adversarial model in law enforcement, AM is
an interrogation technique specifically used to obtain a confession. Investigators
apply high pressure tactics and close ended and suggestive questions,
which are purposely hurled at a suspect in order to
elicit a reaction. We've all seen this model on procedural
(28:39):
cop dramas and true crime shows. This was how BCSO
detectives Danny Varner and Mike Sedoriac, with then prosecutor Drew
Miller sitting in, went at Jack Lenny during that second interview,
hitting him hard with everything they had, the blood soaked
station wagon, truck with the camper, the fact that a
(29:02):
man fitting Lenny's description down to a ball cap he
admitted wearing that day was reported speaking to Dana, perhaps
even fighting with her in the parking lot of the Phillips.
Further into the interview, Lenny says, in response to allegations
of sexual harassment against him, quote, well, if some people
(29:24):
want to take it wrong, they can complain if they
want to. From there, he admitted that he routinely pulled
over women on the road near the Phillips, had a
habit of picking up hitchhikers, new details about Dana's case
not released publicly. Later, when asked pointedly, quote maybe you
(29:45):
picked up old Dana and just things went downhill for her,
Lenny answered maybe. When asked for a hair sample, being
the cocky, smart asked he is, Lenny responded, next time
I go to the barber, I'll sit. I guess that
was a numb After being asked why he was driving
around with duct tape in his car, Lenny says, I
(30:08):
don't use it. And finally, after being asked, within the
context of Danu's murder, mind you if he ever sometimes
thought about killing people Jack, Lenny replied, yes, it.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Just it was an interesting interview. There was a scurry
of activity, as I recall, right after that interview with
regard to a young lady that had been found on
a porch and wrapped in cords, I participated in a
search worn up there, and that was of his parents' house.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
That search of Lenny's mother's house yielded several interesting findings,
including two white ropes, some blue and white rope which
matched with the same rope used to bind Seanna Garber,
green and black army parachord, and two knives. And then
there was the interview with Lenny's ex wife, whose name
(31:08):
I am choosing not to use. From that interview, it's
clear that BCSO was in full pursuit of Lenny heading
down the road of an arrests. Warn remember law enforcement
recovered the contents of Dana's purse, but not the bag itself.
Lenny was said to have collected purses as strange as
(31:29):
that sounds, and one source claimed he kept his vast
collection of purses at his mother's house. As they get
into a conversation about Dana's purse with his ex wife,
an interesting exchange takes place. First, they describe what Dana's
purse looked like before, casually, as you can hear in
this exclusive recording, sliding a photo of a similar purse
(31:53):
across the table, that what had Geordia ash in front
of it?
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Ever given you a first life.
Speaker 13 (32:05):
Like that?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I've got a denim one. It's kind of a pouch,
denim purse or.
Speaker 14 (32:12):
What actually, sus friender jeans?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Okay, what about any jewelry? Talking about remember if he
gave you any jewelry during that time?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Jewelry and silver?
Speaker 8 (32:25):
I like silver jewelry.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
No, did he ever find anything at that time? No
jewelry do you usually give to me? Because I like jewelry.
I got a bunch of it. I don't wear it
you know where.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
But I like it.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
I collected.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Then they touch on the seemingly endless number of sexual
harassment claims lodged against her ex husband, and how most
of the women working at Phillips were so scared of
the guy they had their husbands wait for them in
the parking lot after work because Lenny was out there
just just about every single day, stalking and even following
(33:05):
them home. Listen to how Detective Danny Varner explains it.
Speaker 15 (33:12):
To go On.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I said, about five weeks ago, we started receiving another complaints.
Speaker 16 (33:19):
From a check her at there in the Philip store,
and it got to the point that she had to
be walking to her father for.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Parking lot and she just get it.
Speaker 16 (33:33):
Then two weeks ago this Friday, followed another girl that
works at Phillips's from Mettondale down bright Away Hill, like
that's just friends here anymore, if he will right down there,
coming back into Mela Vista and between there and Melo Vista,
he pulled up beside her and was hollering at her
(33:54):
and notioning.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Order to go over.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
It's time like this to go over.
Speaker 16 (33:58):
This girl had her air conditioner, the windows up in
stereo on and she says, I didn't knowing, and he
has a lot of trouble with her exsually he's gonna
stop ringing. She said, I just get him off and
standing speed up, and he says he's still standing out
on my mother all the way to Phillips is where
I was coming back to work, and he got into
(34:20):
the Phillips partner a lot and when she was inside, uh,
telling the other girls what had happened and describing to
pick up and the male subject in the pickup.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
So even after he was interviewed about harassing women and
Dana's murder, Lenny was still frequenting the Phillips parking lot,
still harassing women, still following them, still trying to pull
them over.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
Then this.
Speaker 16 (34:51):
What we think is Dana knew him, which we've got
people saying that he talked to it.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
You know, in time, he knew everybody in a delic
the America numerous times. Uh, they know if he'd.
Speaker 16 (35:05):
Ever followed data and called up the side and told
it draw off she you know, And we don't know
if it was talk to her by outside of the store.
Much possibly that he told her something that, you know,
can you follow me out there and take.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Me somewhere I can leave my car or something, And
they would have been the type of person and maybe
they's just got a little out of hand and you
think right downhill from there.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
They asked about a possible penchant then he had for
picking up hitchhikers.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Is that a normal practice it is? Picked people up
like that? How often does he do whenever.
Speaker 14 (35:50):
Someone is on the road, whenever someone is built down,
someone just parts.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
He'll stop and they've.
Speaker 14 (36:00):
We can help him. I got no problem to pick up.
I got no problem to pick up somebody I know.
I got a problem to pick up somebody that I know.
Speaker 11 (36:11):
You know.
Speaker 14 (36:12):
I said, you don't know anymore, and I don't care
if it's just me and him. I said, that's fine,
but our kids are with us. I don't want even
stopping for anybody, but he'll do that.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Have you noticed any does your husband having any personal
personality conflicts within himself? I know he had that accent.
Has that affected it?
Speaker 9 (36:33):
He m.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
You haven't seen a draft vast change of personality that
has happened since you met him, that he switches personalities
or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
You've been behind towards you.
Speaker 14 (36:49):
No, he's he's change.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
One of the things that we wish to value. My
researchers vehicle I'm saying.
Speaker 16 (36:59):
Just going through the wallet type of thing that the
papers dropped him in. I said, I know you will
do that, And then he was gathering at the paper.
Speaker 10 (37:12):
Uh.
Speaker 16 (37:13):
And we've got doc said, which is to own maps
to the new ones and do Arkansas state maps.
Speaker 9 (37:20):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Got he said, starting to kissing me off.
Speaker 16 (37:26):
And we we we thought it was you know, running
even key of a person and joking with us and
everything to get possibly balance.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Well when you open some off.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
That last comment bears repeating violent only if you pissed
him off, spoken like someone who I'd imagine may have
experienced that violence firsthand. And then this.
Speaker 8 (38:02):
See hold it in or see let it out?
Speaker 2 (38:06):
You let me ask you kind of another personal question.
Jenny's sexual fantasies kinky sex.
Speaker 8 (38:16):
No, not that, But Danny's asked, has he ever implicated
or but you know he wanted to use some type
of restraint on you or on you mm hmm, like
rope or being tied out.
Speaker 15 (38:33):
No, I don't reason that that.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
You go somewhere out here.
Speaker 8 (38:37):
Why did he want to do that?
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Oh? No, he just said those kinds of people are
good for you.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
They asked her about Dana's murder.
Speaker 16 (38:46):
Specifically, is there anyone you know well or not that
she feels both suspicion would not do something like this.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
To think why, I.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Had to stop and think about that a moment while
studying this interview tape. Here was a wife who believed
her husband was capable of committing murder.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Let me, let me go. But this way, we've thrown
a lot of stuff. That's sure. Quite honestly, you're taking
it pretty good. I mean you're taking everything in stride.
You're realizing what we're doing here. Have some of those
things you talked about, have they raised any concerns with you?
Or have they shot you or surprised you?
Speaker 14 (39:30):
Or I don't want anything shock or surprise me anymore.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
I've run around with a lot of people.
Speaker 14 (39:36):
Strange people, different people, So you know, if someone said
my mother in law.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Shot, somebody's not gonna surprise me, because.
Speaker 14 (39:47):
Anybody is capable of anything.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
After reading the transcript of Lenny's second interview, listening to
his ex wife's interview, and also speaking with her myself,
I expected to beco to bring him in on an
arrest warrant at that time, but instead they asked him
to take a polygraph, which took an additional two years
(40:11):
to get done. After those two interviews, the BCSO conducted
the search warrant of his house and a second vehicle,
and well, what they found beyond those bindings and cables,
Prosecutor Drew Miller mentioned at the end of the previous
episode seemed not only enough to arrest him but guarantee
a conviction. As they began searching his house, Detective Danny
(40:35):
Varner pulled Lenny's wife aside and spoke to her again.
And she says this quote. One night recently, when the
TV news showed one of the female murder victims, he
lowered his head and got sick. A detail I want
you to remember. Moving ahead, all of that you just
(40:58):
heard focused on Lenny's second wife. His first wife was
no longer able to speak to law enforcement about him.
Speaker 7 (41:07):
His first wife, I mean, he probably destroyed her life. Honestly.
She got with him early in college and he just
basically abused her emotionally, probably physically, and then even more
so after his accident, and she did kill herself shortly
after DCSO detectives spoke with her. I think probably she
(41:27):
was at a breaking point. She'd already tried committing suicide
before that, but I think it was in her home
in a bad upsetting. I spoke to her daughter too,
and I think she said something along the lines, and
you know, that last interview was probably too rough. I mean,
it's just she's having to relive probably some of the
worst times of her life.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
That's journalist Brandon Howard. I asked him what he thought
about Lenny's second interview.
Speaker 7 (41:50):
He has some bizarre outbursts, specifically when they're talking about
the truck and a truck tag, and he kind of
just breaked out that he doesn't know anything about Damou's
homicide or murder. And they're like, whoa, whoa, what a
thing you did?
Speaker 5 (42:02):
Man?
Speaker 1 (42:03):
And the one thing you said to me was the
one thing that has always bugged you is how would
he know about this spot? I was referring to Oscar
Tally Road where Shauna Garber's body was dumped. If Lenny
was involved, there would have to be a link beyond
him traveling through the area. It's clear an investigator's belief
(42:25):
that Shawna's murderer had a direct tie to the place
where she was found.
Speaker 11 (42:30):
When they went to his home, they found several bindings
that appeared to match.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Brandon had spent years investigating Lenny. Like me, he couldn't
understand why the BCSO had not arrested Lenny after his
second interview and the subsequent searches. So they get a
search warrant for his house and his vehicles and and
just talk to me a little bit about some of
the forensic evidence that they find.
Speaker 7 (43:00):
Yeah, the forensic stuff. They found several hairs in a
vehicle he owned that he sold to a neighbor, along
with evidence of blood clean up throughout the vehicle. The
hairs and blood were found pretty much all over the
steering wheel, rear y ear, floorboards, cargo aria, outside doors.
I think what complicated that was that the previous owner
(43:22):
had a similar makeup to Dana in terms of complexion
and maybe hair. He also cut himself when he tried
to open the door because the door was locked when
sold it to him. However, I still think that it's
worth pursuing what happened to those hairs because they had
what the crime labs stated was microscopic similarities to Dana's hair,
(43:44):
which is more than anything they had of any other
hair sample from any other suspect. Or suspect vehicle. To
add to that, the blood found in the station wagon's
floorboard on the passenger side seemingly is a pool of blood.
It's a jar photo PCs, so it took a photo
of the station wagon and the blood seemingly in the
(44:05):
picture is joining it. It seems like there's a pool
of it in the front seat. And it told me
there's no way he can account for that much blood
based off cutting his hands.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
And so what are your thoughts on this guy being
responsible for Dana and or Seana Garber.
Speaker 7 (44:21):
I think he did not get fully vetted in either case.
There's other things stand out. When they searched his home
involving interviews family saying that he had a pension for
bondage and sexual relations, and there was a videotape with
(44:42):
seemingly raped and bondage on the tape. It's not clear
if it was pornographic or if it was a personal tape,
or who was on the tape or why he had it.
There was no follow up interview and after the houses
were searched, as far as I know, his interview specifically
regarding it sit him case is all over the place,
(45:02):
seemingly admitting that he pulls over Whomen's in the grocery
store where she worked, that he doesn't know Dana, that
he does no Dana, that he could have pulled her
over for having a low tire, that she did have
a low tire.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
It was getting harder to connect Dana and Shawna to
Lenny or one specific suspect. I was feeling confident the
two cases were the work of two different killers. I
asked Detective Rhonda Wise from the McDonald County Sheriff's Office
what she thought.
Speaker 6 (45:33):
I think the biggest thing from a law enforcement standpoint,
you know, is that we work these things. In both
of these cases, I would be safe to say will
continue to be.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Worked on until there is a solution.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
But I think the biggest thing is just to.
Speaker 9 (45:47):
Be able to find the answers and to bring closure
for that family.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Here's Detective Laurie Howard.
Speaker 6 (45:55):
People say they have to be connected. They may be connected,
but I think they I think people also, this is
the scariest thing in the world, to say they underestimate
how many bad guys there are. You have to keep
an open mind. I say they're not connected. Show me evidence,
I'll change my mind. But that's the goal. But we're
(46:16):
always open. I think that's that's the beauty of this
particular agency in particulars. We're always open to take a
different mindset on somebody.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
And McDonald County Sheriff Rob Evenson.
Speaker 15 (46:29):
When a person does something like this, they're gonna they're
gonna answer for it, if not in this life, in
the next. But they whoever did this to Shauna Owes
a debt to the state of Missouri. And when I
tell you I don't believe they're connected, that doesn't.
Speaker 9 (46:44):
Mean that my mind couldn't be changed. They serve our community,
So you have to make a judgment call on how
do you best serve your community. Do you put hours
and hours into something that's old and cold, or do
you work these more recent cases that are solvable so
you can take care of people here and now in
the moment we knew good to solve the ones that
(47:04):
were working with today.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
After having some trouble pinning Jack Lenny down at his
home during the early summer of twenty twenty three, I
started trying to get hold of him on the phone.
I made an early decision that I wasn't going to
take his smarmy, sarcastic bullshit on the chin. He needed
to be called out on all of the evidence pointing
(47:28):
directly at him. He had obviously not been charged in
either Dana or Shawna's case. For months, I got nothing
but wrong numbers, dial tone, and silence. Then one morning
in early December twenty twenty three, I dialed a new number,
(47:53):
and there he was looking for.
Speaker 4 (47:59):
You got it?
Speaker 5 (48:00):
Wait? You what?
Speaker 1 (48:02):
It was the beginning of what would turn out to
be an eye popping, bizarre, revealing, forty five minute call,
resulting in me right afterward contacting a detective working one
of the cases. My name is Emilyiam Phelps. I'm an
investigative journalist recording this call for my podcast. I'd like
(48:24):
to answer you some questions. Now what I said. My
name is Emilyiam Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist working on
two cold cases, recording this from my podcast Paper Ghosts.
I'd like to talk to you about some things.
Speaker 5 (48:43):
Do what well?
Speaker 1 (48:45):
I'd like to talk to you about the murder of
Dana Stidham. With what Dana Stidham's murder, I don't know.
Speaker 12 (48:56):
I have no earth idea.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
I thought that was all done.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
He knew exactly what I was referring to. That's not true.
Speaker 4 (49:07):
That has been so long ago.
Speaker 15 (49:10):
Oh, I don't think of that.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
But you were there on the day she went missing
at the Phillips grocery. Could you talk to me about
July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty nine. Did you kill Dana Stidham?
And there's a lot of people, including me, who think
you did. If you want to take a deeper dive
(49:47):
into some of the subjects covered in this episode and
get real time updates on the cases I cover in
Paper Ghosts, subscribe to my ongoing weekly show, Crossing the
Line with m william Phelps you get your favorite podcasts.
Next time on Paper Ghosts.
Speaker 14 (50:06):
And everybody that has ever known him, and I'm going
to be one of those those people.
Speaker 12 (50:10):
He was evil.
Speaker 7 (50:11):
He was pure evil.
Speaker 13 (50:13):
And so one of the things important is there could
be someone listening who knows something. Oftentimes, in cases like this,
it can be small things that make the difference. It
can be a small key that unlocks a door to
an avenue that no one knew was there.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
He also told me that the same person who killed
Dana killed my girl.
Speaker 7 (50:33):
He referred to Sean as my girl.
Speaker 6 (50:35):
Then he just reminds me again that he is a killer,
and he never once told me that he wasn't a killer.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
One note about sourcing. The call you heard at the
top of this episode was a word for word reenactment
taken directly from a transcript of the actual call paper.
Ghosts Season four is written and executive produced by Me
and William Phelps. Script consulting by Rose Bachi, sound design
by Matt Russell, executive production by Catherine Law, and audio
(51:05):
editing and mixing by Brandon Dicker Takaboom Productions. The series'
theme number four four to two is written and performed
by Thomas Phelps and Tom mo
A warning about this episode. It contained sexually violent, offensive,
extremely graphic language, yet vital to include when exploring the
facts of both Shawnas and Dana's cases. Grass is not
(00:30):
cut No one's around.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
But give it a shot.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
See what he has to say.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Jack Lenny is still a strong person of interest for
the murders of both Dana'stidham and Shawna. Garber I determined
the best way to approach him was a cold call,
a surprise knock on his door. Try to catch the
guy by surprise off his game. See if I can
(00:59):
tell who we he is before he can put up
a front to disguise himself. Today, Lenny lives in a
suburban neighborhood, each cookie cutter house like the one before it.
The town where he lives, which I am choosing not
to name, is between Belavis to Arkansas and Anderson, Missouri.
(01:21):
During the time of Dana's murder, he was living in Bentonville, Arkansas,
just a few miles from Dana's home, workplace, and where
Dana's body was found. He then moved to a different county,
just thirty five miles from Pineville, where Shawna's body was found.
The houses around Lennie's were well kept yards well maintained,
(01:44):
that is, all of them except for Linny's. In fact,
it appeared as though he'd abandon yard work and any
type of upkeep long ago.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Sheets are drawn and haler on the ground.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I stood for a while on his front steps and waited.
He was either not home or not answering. The windows,
quite strangely, were covered from the inside with newspaper, every
single one of them.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
No one seems to be home.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
With multiple daily newspapers left on the doorstep, wet and moldy,
I got a sense that no one had been home
in quite some time. I checked the garbage bin and
it hadn't been used for a while. Other than helping
me paint a mental picture of this guy, I struck
out this time. My surprise visit didn't yield the results
(02:44):
I'd hope for, but I could now begin calling Lenny
to see what he had to say and find out
if he'd even talk to me. I sensed he was
the type of guy who needed to explain himself, so
I was hopeful this. As the deeper I looked at Lenny,
the more evidence I found point to his alleged involvement
(03:07):
in two thirty plus year old cold murder cases previously
on Paper Ghosts.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
He said, we're going to start playing.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
Chess by mail, and he said, don't cheat.
Speaker 7 (03:27):
I thought, were what dare you? A serial killer?
Speaker 8 (03:32):
Moralized to be?
Speaker 4 (03:34):
There was probably like seventeen different types of twine that.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Were used to cocoon this young lady after.
Speaker 9 (03:41):
She had been murdered.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
None of them are impossible.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It was impossible and probably self trying.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
But this is going to be solved, and it will be.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist
and author of more than forty true crime books. This
season four of Paper Ghosts, the ozarks law enforcement studies
(04:14):
on cold casework have shown that the passage of time
can pose a serious threat to recall accuracy. In other words,
a witness's memory might produce inaccuracies because of the time
between the crime and the account provided to law enforcement.
This is why documentation, recorded interviews, and information gathered near
(04:37):
the time of the crime in real time becomes so
utterly vital to cold case investigation. At the end of
the last episode, you heard a prosecutor talk about evidence
found in Jacquelinese house during a search warrant over a
year after Dana's murder, spools of various ropes, cable and wire.
(04:59):
That search also uncovered some rather alarming forensic evidence, which
we're about to unpack in this episode. Before that, however,
I'd like to go back and look at two specific
significant events leading up to the execution of those warrants. First,
(05:19):
there was a disturbing phone call, unlike any of the
past calls you've heard that the BCSO thought might possibly
be connected to Dana Stidham's case. This call, which is
violent in content, made just after Dana went missing, felt
very significant and perhaps even an indication of things to come.
Speaker 10 (05:43):
Hello, this is understand.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
You're having an auction to raise money.
Speaker 10 (05:47):
Yes, that in PST the money for but we're trying
to raise money for the Stidham family. We hoped to
be able to raise enough money to help the family
out and start a reward fund. That money help us
find who killed Damis Didham?
Speaker 5 (06:01):
Are you finding to get involved in something like this?
Speaker 11 (06:06):
No?
Speaker 10 (06:06):
Not really, you should be Why is that?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
How do you like men to cut your t's off?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Terrified, the woman immediately hung up the phone. A second
call came in some time later.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
The caller alluded once again to the reward money, but
he was hard to understand. The woman was certain, however,
she was speaking to the same person.
Speaker 10 (06:34):
Who is this?
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Listen, bitch, I'm gonna stick my knife in you.
Speaker 12 (06:39):
Hey, you know where I'm at.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
She hung up the phone. A third call came in
soon after.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
You know what I'm going to do to you. You
have to be really hard. I'm going you so hard
you'll think my is gonna come out of your throat.
I cannot be waiting to show you. Oh listen, interest,
did you hear me? And you because you better listen?
God damn life, you and I'll never.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Find you.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
This time. He hung up the phone. You might be
wondering why these calls happened to be recorded, and that's
because the calls had been made to the tip line
set up for Dana's investigation. The woman called the BCSO
immediately after the third call. The BCSO interviewed right away.
(07:31):
Journalist Brandon Howard spoke with me about those disturbing calls
you just heard.
Speaker 7 (07:36):
I understand it was a family friend and worked at
the post office, which was really a caddy corner to
the grocery store with Dana work. You could ask it
from the same parking lot.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
The frightening part of Brandon's comment is that it's entirely
possible the caller was watching the woman from a payphone
overlooking the post office in the parking lot of Phillip's Grocery.
These calls were different from the previous ones explored throughout
the investigation, not only in context, but in how threatening
(08:11):
and serious they seemed. Violence was part of the caller's objective,
as was trying to instill fear and intimidate certain individuals
connected to Dana's case.
Speaker 7 (08:25):
Yeah, I think the phone call significant because it doesn't
seem like a typical phone call to the prank, which
I'm sure there were probably phone calls that were frames
involved in Dana's case. I think that's probably typical of
any case like this. But this is repeated phone calls
that I would argue grow more disturbing, and they are
pretty specific and the type of threats the caller delivers.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I asked Brandon for his insights about the caller.
Speaker 7 (08:51):
First thought was that it escalated from zero to one hundred,
like really quickly, seemingly in just a handful of phone
calls too. If you're comparing this to another suspect in
the case, possibly a high school classmate of Danas, it
doesn't seem like something a high schooler would do. And
(09:11):
to have an addendum to that, if there is the
possibility that he made a phone call to another woman
later in life, it doesn't seem to fit. Somewhat of
a jovial, not disturbing, sexual conversation he had with another woman,
nothing like this where there were threats of bodily armed
in escalation to violence. And the third part about it
(09:34):
is the phone call was paired with a voice lineup
and the woman post office selected a voice of a
suspect who later emerged the Dana's case that I think
is probably the best suspect of the group.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
During the woman's interview with BCSO detectives, they played a
voice lineup six different voices of six different men. Within
those six men was Jack Lenny's voice from that first
interview that BCSO had conducted with them. She immediately picked
(10:11):
Lenny's voice out of the lineup. This call also points
us away from the bcso's early target, Mike McMillan, because
whoever called into this tip line would have had access
to local information in order to know certain details. And
so the other part of it is, and you made
(10:31):
this point, which I think is very, very valid, it's
hard to believe that it could be Mike McMillan because
what do you have access to the daily record, right,
or even get that information from family and make the
call exactly.
Speaker 7 (10:49):
Yeah, the more I thought about that, to place the
context of the nineteen eighty nine phone calls, he would
have to have access to the daily newspaper in the area.
There was no Internet, social media, any of things that
we take for granted now.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Mike McMillan was not even in the state when the
calls were made into the tip line, which completely excludes
him as a potential source. And here's the thing about
Jack Linney's voice I need to underscore.
Speaker 7 (11:17):
She selected this voice, which I hate to say feather
in the cat, but stood out to me at least
because had a very unique speaking style, the result of
a bad accident that lets him with some brain damage,
so he had a slur list type of voice. And
I thought that really stood out because it would seem
(11:38):
like something somebody would remember from a phone call and
then they heard back again, they'd be more likely to choose.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
It to focus on Jack Lenny as a person of
interest in Dana Didham's murder, and fievably, Shauna Garber's went
from intense to laser focused in nineteen ninety three after
(12:06):
he was picked out of that voice lineup. Another fact
leading to the search warrants on Lenny's home and vehicle
was a second interview, which was more of an interrogation.
If you recall, the first Jack Lenney interview was rather
light handed and conducted during the information gathering phase of
(12:27):
the investigation. This second interview was more strategically designed to
get him to maybe admit to his possible role in
Dana's murder and start heading in the direction of positioning
him as potentially being involved in SHAWNA. Garber's Unfortunately, I
(12:47):
could not locate a recording of this second interview, but
was able to find a copy of a complete transcript. Additionally,
while I was in Bentonville, Arkansas, I met with someone
you heard at the end of the previous episode, the
former prosecutor who was part of the team interviewing Lenny
that second time. If I couldn't hear the interview myself.
(13:11):
The next best thing was to talk to someone.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Who was in the room.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And so you are.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Drew Miller right now, just said attorney in private practice.
So you're coming to me because I was a deputy
prosecuting attorney and the chief Deputy prosecuting Attorney in the
Benton County Prosecutor's Office September ninety one until January of
ninety five.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Drew has this Southern charm abottom that is hard not
to like. He works out of a sprawling office located
inside a Gothic style building reminiscent of a fifteenth century church.
Drew oversaw the Prosecutor's Office in Benton County and was
present for the search warrants and second longer interview the
(13:58):
BCSO conducted with Jack Lenny in nineteen ninety three. One
thing he cleared up for me was how the BCSO
had latched onto Lenny. Back in the first episode, I
talked about a man seen talking to Dana in the
parking lot of the Phillips. One report had the two
of them apparently arguing the guy who was with Dana
(14:22):
matched Lenny's description, and more importantly, when confronted about whether
he was in the parking lot on that July twenty
fifth afternoon, the last time Dana was seen, Lenny said, quote,
she might have even talked to me.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
So I think my recollection he was identified early on,
and then he surfaced again, maybe just to do due
diligence and making sure that they were going back to
reinterview everybody. But it seemed to me that when we
talked to this individual that there was some independent evidence
that they had found. I think they had found maybe
(15:01):
some maps or something that had come up that were
maybe in his vehicle, or that he had given them
or given somebody that had some locations of not only
where close proximity where Dana had disappeared, but some close
proximity where other individual unsolved murders had appeared, generally the
(15:22):
same type of criteria, female age, anywhere from twenty to
thirty five, And they had some confidence even before he
was interviewed, but they felt like that he was a
strong lead.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
In an earlier episode, I mentioned those maps which were
found in Lenny's vehicle and had the locations in town
clearly marked where Dana had visited or had been seen
on the day she disappeared, Why in the hell with
Jack Lenny maps marked with that sort of information. Here's
(16:05):
journalists Brandon Howard.
Speaker 11 (16:08):
He reportedly had several maps of Bellavista in his vehicle
that he initially said belonged to the newspaper, but detectives
were concerned because he had markings on the maps that
included the spot where Dana's car was found and the
grocery store where she worked at. He tries to pass
that off as that's the location where newspapers might be built,
but they have questions about that, since why would a
(16:30):
newspaper to be built on the side of the highway
or at a grocery store. He has no solid answer
to that response. He also has a bizarre outburst that
he has no idea about the Stideam homicide, seemingly in
an unrelated question that bears little to any relevation about
our case.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
He just, you know, red flags all over the place
with this guy.
Speaker 11 (16:50):
Yes, I don't need to laugh. Yeah, red flags. It's shocking.
I mean, if I was to check the box of
predator or deviant, this guy checks several of those boxes.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I mean, showing up at a store with a scheme, mask.
Speaker 11 (17:03):
On, telling the women you're horny as Hill. It's very
bizarre waiting for them in the parking lot, mentioning he
gave detailed answers about Dana's case, referred to her as
a really good looking person. That saddened him that people
like that are killed, never the ugly ones. In addition
to that, he mentions unprompted that Dana had might have
had a low tire which could have prompted him to
(17:24):
pull her over, but that wasn't mentioned by detectives in
the interview. It was public knowledge but not mentioned by
the textives in the interview.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
The plan during this second interview with Lenny was to
get him under oath to explain the circumstances, pointing the
BCSO in his direction. You heard the first interview, which
was very much an avenue for the BCSO to let
Lenny know they were coming after him. During that second interview,
(17:53):
Prosecutor Drew Miller explained Lenny rang several alarm bells without
ever being prompted, starting with agreeing to the interview in
the first place.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
They were wanting to pin him down, very surprised that
he wanted to come in. You know, my initial reaction is,
you know, this guy's coming in. Surely he's not the guy, right,
I mean, who does that? But the interview was everything
can be considered unusual, but from my perspective, it was
it was almost like he definitely wasn't afraid.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
The interview was conducted mostly by Danny Varner. Lenny, forty
six years old at the time, was cocky and smarmy,
answering questions in a sarcastic manner, as if he was
taunting law enforcement.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
I got the feeling during some course of that interview,
if Danny had the legal ability to wrap his hands
around his neck, he would have wrapped his hands around
his neck. But he he maintained it was just an
interesting interview because as I'm listen listening to him, it's
just not like I'm sure he denied it, but it
just really wasn't like he denied it, you know, It's
just like he just wanted to continue the conversation.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
What law enforcement found unquestionably disturbing, not to mention revealing,
was that Lenny himself brought the subject of Dana Stidham up.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
It's just as I sat there in the interview, my
feelings changed to I know something is going on with
this guy. I don't know what it is. I'm not
a doctor, I'm not a psychologist. I'm just trying to
get a read. But there was just something that was
clinically off.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
At one point, while referring to Dana, Lenny says, quote,
she was real good looking, and that's one of the
big things that always ticked me off. They always killed
the good looking once. They don't ever kill the old, fat,
ugly hog end quote. It's a shaming, demeaning, and humiliating
(19:59):
way to view women, especially when you're being questioned about
the murder of the young woman you are talking about.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Yeah, again, that would be a typical example, like in
some aspects, really incriminating, right if he says it the
right way or or the wrong way. But as you're
going for he says a lot of that stuff and
you're just going, why would he even go there?
Speaker 1 (20:24):
At one point, they pressed him about prior arrests, and
he mentioned a concealed weapon charge and also being accused
of stealing a police officer's gun. In an earlier episode,
we discussed the report from a witness claiming to have
seen Dana's carr being followed by a station wagon. At
(20:45):
the time, Lenny owned a station wagon fitting the description
which had been searched the week before this second interview. Inside,
they found blood on the front passenger seat, floorboard, carpets
on the backseat, along with several female hairs. So two
(21:06):
and two make four.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Again. At the time, I thought that there was enough
evidence to piece things together.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Next, Drew makeson a stoope point about motive, placing Lenny
into a very distinct, rare category of murderers, which begins
to point at him as a serious person of interest
in SHAWNA. Garber's murder as well, or at the least
someone who needs to be excluded.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Well, that's the problem with a serial killer, because number
one is motive, and with a serial killer, you don't
really have motive. And this, at least based on it's
the perception at the time and probably the perception now,
is it was a serial killer. Could have been somebody
that she known, but somebody that had done this before,
or there potentially was no way to string them together
(21:52):
individually as far as motive.
Speaker 8 (21:54):
So then the.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Next thing you need to prove his opportunity, and and
that's a tricky one because obviously the opportunity potentially existed,
but the longer a case goes on, you know, it's
very it's very difficult to prove that opportunity.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
The BCSO had already proved Lenny had the opportunity, was
in the area at the time and had no alibi
for that night. Furthermore, they spoke to his then wife
who said he would leave home for days at a
time and she had no idea where he was or
where he had gone.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
And then you get to the intent issue, and the
intent with regard to a serial killer is that is
just that. So it's almost like with a serial killer,
you got to you kind of got to build the bodies,
you know, I mean that's the worst part of it.
You got to connect as opposed to connecting the dots,
you got to connect the bodies. And so it's it's difficult,
I mean there because the number one thing that is
good in any kind of murder case is the motive,
(22:54):
and you really don't have it right, at least you
can't connect it right. So that's what that's what makes
these kind of difficult.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
A serial killer acts with impunity. Their number one motive
for killing is for the fun of it. Drew Miller's
point is incredibly valid. To catch a serial killer, it's
imperative to find a connection among his victims, which often
leads to evidence and simultaneously additional victims. And so over
(23:27):
the course of time, how did it progress with him?
Speaker 4 (23:29):
I don't know how long. I mean, I definitely know
Sedoriac he had a passion for it, and Barner had
a passion for it. And it's just like anything else,
just like any occupation, you know, the people that have
passion for it continue the fire when they when they're
not there to fan it is going to die. And
so that's why people that do cold cases, it's really
hard for them because they have to they have to
(23:50):
build that desire, you know, and they have to build
it from scratch. And some are really good at it,
you know. Some of them, you know, open the box
and they're they're all there. Some it takes away, I mean,
but if you like, what are you going to do?
Hand a young detective a thirty year old case and
say go investigate this, He's like, oh, Mike, what am
I going to be doing for the rest.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
Of my life?
Speaker 4 (24:09):
You know. So it's it's just a different it's just
a different situation, for.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Sure, Such an important comment, and one I think victims'
families need to hear investigators involved in a particular case
for ten, twenty, even thirty years ultimately retire, the new
team comes in and they lock onto another case, contemporary
(24:33):
or otherwise cold cases get put on a back burner,
not for any nefarious or personal reasons. It's just how
the system is designed. The squeaky wheels get the oil,
which is why it's so vital for victims' families to
keep whispering in the ears of law enforcement about their
cases without making accusations or becoming too bothersome or an annoyance.
(25:00):
I do understand how difficult a task this can become,
how utterly painful, how gut wrenching and frustrating when there
are no answers and law enforcement is seemingly not responding.
But oftentimes it's a matter of logistics, budgets, and new
cases taking precedence even when everyone is doing their best.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
With regard to this suspect, I'm confident that he was
watched in some sort of fashion. He was somewhat kept
track of.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
During his second interview, as investigators really began to drill
down into him. Lenny clearly enjoyed playing cat and mouse,
a pattern of his I would soon learn firsthand myself.
In one instance, Detective Danny Varner asks him if he
drove a station wagon and a pickup truck. Lenny responds
(25:56):
rather smartly, only one at a time. Then they ask
which roads he favored driving, and if he ever drove
on River Road in Pineville, Missouri, which would have been
a convenient cut through heading toward where he lived in Missouri,
then this route would have taken him directly by the
area where Seanna Garber's body was dumped. He plays dumb,
(26:21):
saying maybe not sure, sometimes I think so. Then they
ask him about a Texas license plate he had and
if he ever used it. His bizarre response to that
I don't know anything about Stidham, about the Stidham homicide,
(26:43):
or anything else, makes you wonder how he made that
leap from being asked about a license plate to responding
with defensiveness about a murder investigation naming the actual victim.
My guess is that if he had used that license
plate on the night of Dena's abduction and murder, that
(27:04):
he could be trying to get in front of the evidence,
thinking maybe somebody had reported seeing a Texas license plate.
Would you call him smart?
Speaker 4 (27:14):
I would not call myself smart. I don't call him
smart because I thought, I think this person did it,
and he was just allowed just he just was there
giving an interview.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
That's what I mean.
Speaker 12 (27:25):
It's like I couldn't figure him out. I just couldn't
figure him out. I would say, probably is one of
those people that, you know, this might be a characteristic.
Somebody might say if you ask in the parameters.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Or this characteristic, that he's smart.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
I think, given a nuclear award, is one of those
guys that are going to survive, you know, And that's
smarter than of itself. So smart an intelligent way where
he can add numbers or write a poem. No, but
if it came to survival, maybe smarter than the emotions.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
That makes sense. And it also sounds like you're going
down the psychology of a serial killer.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah, I was convinced.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Known as the adversarial model in law enforcement, AM is
an interrogation technique specifically used to obtain a confession. Investigators
apply high pressure tactics and close ended and suggestive questions,
which are purposely hurled at a suspect in order to
elicit a reaction. We've all seen this model on procedural
(28:39):
cop dramas and true crime shows. This was how BCSO
detectives Danny Varner and Mike Sedoriac, with then prosecutor Drew
Miller sitting in, went at Jack Lenny during that second interview,
hitting him hard with everything they had, the blood soaked
station wagon, truck with the camper, the fact that a
(29:02):
man fitting Lenny's description down to a ball cap he
admitted wearing that day was reported speaking to Dana, perhaps
even fighting with her in the parking lot of the Phillips.
Further into the interview, Lenny says, in response to allegations
of sexual harassment against him, quote, well, if some people
(29:24):
want to take it wrong, they can complain if they
want to. From there, he admitted that he routinely pulled
over women on the road near the Phillips, had a
habit of picking up hitchhikers, new details about Dana's case
not released publicly. Later, when asked pointedly, quote maybe you
(29:45):
picked up old Dana and just things went downhill for her,
Lenny answered maybe. When asked for a hair sample, being
the cocky, smart asked he is, Lenny responded, next time
I go to the barber, I'll sit. I guess that
was a numb After being asked why he was driving
around with duct tape in his car, Lenny says, I
(30:08):
don't use it. And finally, after being asked, within the
context of Danu's murder, mind you if he ever sometimes
thought about killing people Jack, Lenny replied, yes, it.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Just it was an interesting interview. There was a scurry
of activity, as I recall, right after that interview with
regard to a young lady that had been found on
a porch and wrapped in cords, I participated in a
search worn up there, and that was of his parents' house.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
That search of Lenny's mother's house yielded several interesting findings,
including two white ropes, some blue and white rope which
matched with the same rope used to bind Seanna Garber,
green and black army parachord, and two knives. And then
there was the interview with Lenny's ex wife, whose name
(31:08):
I am choosing not to use. From that interview, it's
clear that BCSO was in full pursuit of Lenny heading
down the road of an arrests. Warn remember law enforcement
recovered the contents of Dana's purse, but not the bag itself.
Lenny was said to have collected purses as strange as
(31:29):
that sounds, and one source claimed he kept his vast
collection of purses at his mother's house. As they get
into a conversation about Dana's purse with his ex wife,
an interesting exchange takes place. First, they describe what Dana's
purse looked like before, casually, as you can hear in
this exclusive recording, sliding a photo of a similar purse
(31:53):
across the table, that what had Geordia ash in front
of it?
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Ever given you a first life.
Speaker 13 (32:05):
Like that?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I've got a denim one. It's kind of a pouch,
denim purse or.
Speaker 14 (32:12):
What actually, sus friender jeans?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Okay, what about any jewelry? Talking about remember if he
gave you any jewelry during that time?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Jewelry and silver?
Speaker 8 (32:25):
I like silver jewelry.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
No, did he ever find anything at that time? No
jewelry do you usually give to me? Because I like jewelry.
I got a bunch of it. I don't wear it
you know where.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
But I like it.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
I collected.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Then they touch on the seemingly endless number of sexual
harassment claims lodged against her ex husband, and how most
of the women working at Phillips were so scared of
the guy they had their husbands wait for them in
the parking lot after work because Lenny was out there
just just about every single day, stalking and even following
(33:05):
them home. Listen to how Detective Danny Varner explains it.
Speaker 15 (33:12):
To go On.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I said, about five weeks ago, we started receiving another complaints.
Speaker 16 (33:19):
From a check her at there in the Philip store,
and it got to the point that she had to
be walking to her father for.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Parking lot and she just get it.
Speaker 16 (33:33):
Then two weeks ago this Friday, followed another girl that
works at Phillips's from Mettondale down bright Away Hill, like
that's just friends here anymore, if he will right down there,
coming back into Mela Vista and between there and Melo Vista,
he pulled up beside her and was hollering at her
(33:54):
and notioning.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Order to go over.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
It's time like this to go over.
Speaker 16 (33:58):
This girl had her air conditioner, the windows up in
stereo on and she says, I didn't knowing, and he
has a lot of trouble with her exsually he's gonna
stop ringing. She said, I just get him off and
standing speed up, and he says he's still standing out
on my mother all the way to Phillips is where
I was coming back to work, and he got into
(34:20):
the Phillips partner a lot and when she was inside, uh,
telling the other girls what had happened and describing to
pick up and the male subject in the pickup.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
So even after he was interviewed about harassing women and
Dana's murder, Lenny was still frequenting the Phillips parking lot,
still harassing women, still following them, still trying to pull
them over.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
Then this.
Speaker 16 (34:51):
What we think is Dana knew him, which we've got
people saying that he talked to it.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
You know, in time, he knew everybody in a delic
the America numerous times. Uh, they know if he'd.
Speaker 16 (35:05):
Ever followed data and called up the side and told
it draw off she you know, And we don't know
if it was talk to her by outside of the store.
Much possibly that he told her something that, you know,
can you follow me out there and take.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Me somewhere I can leave my car or something, And
they would have been the type of person and maybe
they's just got a little out of hand and you
think right downhill from there.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
They asked about a possible penchant then he had for
picking up hitchhikers.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Is that a normal practice it is? Picked people up
like that? How often does he do whenever.
Speaker 14 (35:50):
Someone is on the road, whenever someone is built down,
someone just parts.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
He'll stop and they've.
Speaker 14 (36:00):
We can help him. I got no problem to pick up.
I got no problem to pick up somebody I know.
I got a problem to pick up somebody that I know.
Speaker 11 (36:11):
You know.
Speaker 14 (36:12):
I said, you don't know anymore, and I don't care
if it's just me and him. I said, that's fine,
but our kids are with us. I don't want even
stopping for anybody, but he'll do that.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Have you noticed any does your husband having any personal
personality conflicts within himself? I know he had that accent.
Has that affected it?
Speaker 9 (36:33):
He m.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
You haven't seen a draft vast change of personality that
has happened since you met him, that he switches personalities
or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
You've been behind towards you.
Speaker 14 (36:49):
No, he's he's change.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
One of the things that we wish to value. My
researchers vehicle I'm saying.
Speaker 16 (36:59):
Just going through the wallet type of thing that the
papers dropped him in. I said, I know you will
do that, And then he was gathering at the paper.
Speaker 10 (37:12):
Uh.
Speaker 16 (37:13):
And we've got doc said, which is to own maps
to the new ones and do Arkansas state maps.
Speaker 9 (37:20):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Got he said, starting to kissing me off.
Speaker 16 (37:26):
And we we we thought it was you know, running
even key of a person and joking with us and
everything to get possibly balance.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Well when you open some off.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
That last comment bears repeating violent only if you pissed
him off, spoken like someone who I'd imagine may have
experienced that violence firsthand. And then this.
Speaker 8 (38:02):
See hold it in or see let it out?
Speaker 2 (38:06):
You let me ask you kind of another personal question.
Jenny's sexual fantasies kinky sex.
Speaker 8 (38:16):
No, not that, But Danny's asked, has he ever implicated
or but you know he wanted to use some type
of restraint on you or on you mm hmm, like
rope or being tied out.
Speaker 15 (38:33):
No, I don't reason that that.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
You go somewhere out here.
Speaker 8 (38:37):
Why did he want to do that?
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Oh? No, he just said those kinds of people are
good for you.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
They asked her about Dana's murder.
Speaker 16 (38:46):
Specifically, is there anyone you know well or not that
she feels both suspicion would not do something like this.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
To think why, I.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Had to stop and think about that a moment while
studying this interview tape. Here was a wife who believed
her husband was capable of committing murder.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Let me, let me go. But this way, we've thrown
a lot of stuff. That's sure. Quite honestly, you're taking
it pretty good. I mean you're taking everything in stride.
You're realizing what we're doing here. Have some of those
things you talked about, have they raised any concerns with you?
Or have they shot you or surprised you?
Speaker 14 (39:30):
Or I don't want anything shock or surprise me anymore.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
I've run around with a lot of people.
Speaker 14 (39:36):
Strange people, different people, So you know, if someone said
my mother in law.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Shot, somebody's not gonna surprise me, because.
Speaker 14 (39:47):
Anybody is capable of anything.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
After reading the transcript of Lenny's second interview, listening to
his ex wife's interview, and also speaking with her myself,
I expected to beco to bring him in on an
arrest warrant at that time, but instead they asked him
to take a polygraph, which took an additional two years
(40:11):
to get done. After those two interviews, the BCSO conducted
the search warrant of his house and a second vehicle,
and well, what they found beyond those bindings and cables,
Prosecutor Drew Miller mentioned at the end of the previous
episode seemed not only enough to arrest him but guarantee
a conviction. As they began searching his house, Detective Danny
(40:35):
Varner pulled Lenny's wife aside and spoke to her again.
And she says this quote. One night recently, when the
TV news showed one of the female murder victims, he
lowered his head and got sick. A detail I want
you to remember. Moving ahead, all of that you just
(40:58):
heard focused on Lenny's second wife. His first wife was
no longer able to speak to law enforcement about him.
Speaker 7 (41:07):
His first wife, I mean, he probably destroyed her life. Honestly.
She got with him early in college and he just
basically abused her emotionally, probably physically, and then even more
so after his accident, and she did kill herself shortly
after DCSO detectives spoke with her. I think probably she
(41:27):
was at a breaking point. She'd already tried committing suicide
before that, but I think it was in her home
in a bad upsetting. I spoke to her daughter too,
and I think she said something along the lines, and
you know, that last interview was probably too rough. I mean,
it's just she's having to relive probably some of the
worst times of her life.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
That's journalist Brandon Howard. I asked him what he thought
about Lenny's second interview.
Speaker 7 (41:50):
He has some bizarre outbursts, specifically when they're talking about
the truck and a truck tag, and he kind of
just breaked out that he doesn't know anything about Damou's
homicide or murder. And they're like, whoa, whoa, what a
thing you did?
Speaker 5 (42:02):
Man?
Speaker 1 (42:03):
And the one thing you said to me was the
one thing that has always bugged you is how would
he know about this spot? I was referring to Oscar
Tally Road where Shauna Garber's body was dumped. If Lenny
was involved, there would have to be a link beyond
him traveling through the area. It's clear an investigator's belief
(42:25):
that Shawna's murderer had a direct tie to the place
where she was found.
Speaker 11 (42:30):
When they went to his home, they found several bindings
that appeared to match.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Brandon had spent years investigating Lenny. Like me, he couldn't
understand why the BCSO had not arrested Lenny after his
second interview and the subsequent searches. So they get a
search warrant for his house and his vehicles and and
just talk to me a little bit about some of
the forensic evidence that they find.
Speaker 7 (43:00):
Yeah, the forensic stuff. They found several hairs in a
vehicle he owned that he sold to a neighbor, along
with evidence of blood clean up throughout the vehicle. The
hairs and blood were found pretty much all over the
steering wheel, rear y ear, floorboards, cargo aria, outside doors.
I think what complicated that was that the previous owner
(43:22):
had a similar makeup to Dana in terms of complexion
and maybe hair. He also cut himself when he tried
to open the door because the door was locked when
sold it to him. However, I still think that it's
worth pursuing what happened to those hairs because they had
what the crime labs stated was microscopic similarities to Dana's hair,
(43:44):
which is more than anything they had of any other
hair sample from any other suspect. Or suspect vehicle. To
add to that, the blood found in the station wagon's
floorboard on the passenger side seemingly is a pool of blood.
It's a jar photo PCs, so it took a photo
of the station wagon and the blood seemingly in the
(44:05):
picture is joining it. It seems like there's a pool
of it in the front seat. And it told me
there's no way he can account for that much blood
based off cutting his hands.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
And so what are your thoughts on this guy being
responsible for Dana and or Seana Garber.
Speaker 7 (44:21):
I think he did not get fully vetted in either case.
There's other things stand out. When they searched his home
involving interviews family saying that he had a pension for
bondage and sexual relations, and there was a videotape with
(44:42):
seemingly raped and bondage on the tape. It's not clear
if it was pornographic or if it was a personal tape,
or who was on the tape or why he had it.
There was no follow up interview and after the houses
were searched, as far as I know, his interview specifically
regarding it sit him case is all over the place,
(45:02):
seemingly admitting that he pulls over Whomen's in the grocery
store where she worked, that he doesn't know Dana, that
he does no Dana, that he could have pulled her
over for having a low tire, that she did have
a low tire.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
It was getting harder to connect Dana and Shawna to
Lenny or one specific suspect. I was feeling confident the
two cases were the work of two different killers. I
asked Detective Rhonda Wise from the McDonald County Sheriff's Office
what she thought.
Speaker 6 (45:33):
I think the biggest thing from a law enforcement standpoint,
you know, is that we work these things. In both
of these cases, I would be safe to say will
continue to be.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Worked on until there is a solution.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
But I think the biggest thing is just to.
Speaker 9 (45:47):
Be able to find the answers and to bring closure
for that family.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Here's Detective Laurie Howard.
Speaker 6 (45:55):
People say they have to be connected. They may be connected,
but I think they I think people also, this is
the scariest thing in the world, to say they underestimate
how many bad guys there are. You have to keep
an open mind. I say they're not connected. Show me evidence,
I'll change my mind. But that's the goal. But we're
(46:16):
always open. I think that's that's the beauty of this
particular agency in particulars. We're always open to take a
different mindset on somebody.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
And McDonald County Sheriff Rob Evenson.
Speaker 15 (46:29):
When a person does something like this, they're gonna they're
gonna answer for it, if not in this life, in
the next. But they whoever did this to Shauna Owes
a debt to the state of Missouri. And when I
tell you I don't believe they're connected, that doesn't.
Speaker 9 (46:44):
Mean that my mind couldn't be changed. They serve our community,
So you have to make a judgment call on how
do you best serve your community. Do you put hours
and hours into something that's old and cold, or do
you work these more recent cases that are solvable so
you can take care of people here and now in
the moment we knew good to solve the ones that
(47:04):
were working with today.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
After having some trouble pinning Jack Lenny down at his
home during the early summer of twenty twenty three, I
started trying to get hold of him on the phone.
I made an early decision that I wasn't going to
take his smarmy, sarcastic bullshit on the chin. He needed
to be called out on all of the evidence pointing
(47:28):
directly at him. He had obviously not been charged in
either Dana or Shawna's case. For months, I got nothing
but wrong numbers, dial tone, and silence. Then one morning
in early December twenty twenty three, I dialed a new number,
(47:53):
and there he was looking for.
Speaker 4 (47:59):
You got it?
Speaker 5 (48:00):
Wait? You what?
Speaker 1 (48:02):
It was the beginning of what would turn out to
be an eye popping, bizarre, revealing, forty five minute call,
resulting in me right afterward contacting a detective working one
of the cases. My name is Emilyiam Phelps. I'm an
investigative journalist recording this call for my podcast. I'd like
(48:24):
to answer you some questions. Now what I said. My
name is Emilyiam Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist working on
two cold cases, recording this from my podcast Paper Ghosts.
I'd like to talk to you about some things.
Speaker 5 (48:43):
Do what well?
Speaker 1 (48:45):
I'd like to talk to you about the murder of
Dana Stidham. With what Dana Stidham's murder, I don't know.
Speaker 12 (48:56):
I have no earth idea.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
I thought that was all done.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
He knew exactly what I was referring to. That's not true.
Speaker 4 (49:07):
That has been so long ago.
Speaker 15 (49:10):
Oh, I don't think of that.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
But you were there on the day she went missing
at the Phillips grocery. Could you talk to me about
July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty nine. Did you kill Dana Stidham?
And there's a lot of people, including me, who think
you did. If you want to take a deeper dive
(49:47):
into some of the subjects covered in this episode and
get real time updates on the cases I cover in
Paper Ghosts, subscribe to my ongoing weekly show, Crossing the
Line with m william Phelps you get your favorite podcasts.
Next time on Paper Ghosts.
Speaker 14 (50:06):
And everybody that has ever known him, and I'm going
to be one of those those people.
Speaker 12 (50:10):
He was evil.
Speaker 7 (50:11):
He was pure evil.
Speaker 13 (50:13):
And so one of the things important is there could
be someone listening who knows something. Oftentimes, in cases like this,
it can be small things that make the difference. It
can be a small key that unlocks a door to
an avenue that no one knew was there.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
He also told me that the same person who killed
Dana killed my girl.
Speaker 7 (50:33):
He referred to Sean as my girl.
Speaker 6 (50:35):
Then he just reminds me again that he is a killer,
and he never once told me that he wasn't a killer.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
One note about sourcing. The call you heard at the
top of this episode was a word for word reenactment
taken directly from a transcript of the actual call paper.
Ghosts Season four is written and executive produced by Me
and William Phelps. Script consulting by Rose Bachi, sound design
by Matt Russell, executive production by Catherine Law, and audio
(51:05):
editing and mixing by Brandon Dicker Takaboom Productions. The series'
theme number four four to two is written and performed
by Thomas Phelps and Tom mo
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