Chris Robinson

One of the last true rock stars.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
My guest today is Chris Robinson of the Black Ros,
who have a new album, Happiness Bastards.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
So, Chris, what's your favorite Grateful Dead album?

Speaker 3 (00:25):
Live Dead has to be the best one.

Speaker 4 (00:27):
I mean, wait, wait, wait, wait, we're talking about the
initial Life Dead sixty.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
Five, Dead ninety. Yeah. I mean you can argue eure
up seventy two. My wife's going, e're rope seventy two.
I'm like, I get that. But there's something about Live
Dead because you know, in a way it's it is
It's like that's a that's an avant garde, acid driven
punk commune like anarchists sort of manifesto. I mean, I mean,

(00:57):
I think that's the record where they're really wild, you
know what I mean, Like the music is wild and
it's unruly, and I think that's kind of the thing
that interests me in rock and roll anyway, you know
what I mean. Like, I you know, it's funny because
I meet people and depending really on you know, where

(01:19):
you grew up, like everyone in Long Island, whether you
like them or not, new the Grateful Dead because they
played them on those radio stations, and they even outside
of their underground sort of significance to people or their
cult popularity. In Atlanta ninety six rock God bless them,

(01:40):
they're playing Radar Love and Sugar Loaf and shit, you
know what I mean, They're not I'm not hearing any
of that music in the same way that people in
southern California would have known the Grateful Dead, you know,
even by the by the time Don Henley is referencing
them in a song or something, you know. So, but

(02:01):
when I finally found my way to it, I I
I think that's the I mean, especially that Dark Star,
you know what I mean, that's the.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, the first side, like twenty five minutes or something.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
But you know, it's funny. A couple of weeks ago,
we my wife and I went to the uh Los
Fieleas Theater. It's part of the Aero Theater whatever they
call that thing where they you know, it's art house cinema,
but they play old moves and we went to see
Antonioni Zabrinsky point. And I had seen the film, you know,

(02:35):
on DVD or you know, smaller scale, not on the
scale that it was meant to be seen. And when
they get to the love scene. Uh, you know, Jerry Garcia.
They flew him down from San Francisco and he had
one he had his twin reverb and he had his
strat at the time, and they just played the love

(02:55):
scenes from the desert on a loop for him and
he just improvises those beautiful little short bursts of notes,
these little melodies and stuff. And anyway, that's also my favorite,
grateful to record, even though it's Jerry and on a
sound stage just improvising to this beautiful, you know, art film.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Really, you know, I gotta stop you there for a
second because I have to tell the story. This is
the only time it's ever come up. When when I
was in school in junior high, there was a girl,
Cynthia Fraschett, and we used to call her Behemoth, which
is terrible, but she was a real outcast. And she
told us my brother's gonna be in a movie. He's

(03:41):
gonna be in a movie star. We say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
And her brother was Mark Foschett, who's the star of
the really.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
And you you just thought it was completely like, oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. Person. Yeah,
I tell you, it's funny that the movie really is
much maligned film back when it came out, and I
still think there's an air of I don't know if
people can really grasp the scale of it, which, by

(04:11):
the way, to me makes it holy psychedelic. I mean,
who said they're supposed to be an answer in the mythtic?
You know what I mean? We suggest, because we live
in an era where you know, you have so much
information at the tip of your fingers in an instant,
that they're supposed to be answers. But I mean, personally,
I find very little interest in that. I find a

(04:32):
lot of arrogance and science and in like things like
archaeology and anthropology and things, even though the solid base
of it obviously is really important and significant to our
understanding of the world around us. But we have seemed
to drift away from being able to appreciate the great

(04:53):
mystery of things.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Just to stop. Are you a big movie fan or
are you a historian? Have you seen all this?

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Yeah? I'm a huge you know. My My three the
three uh deep interests that branch out into many other
things have always been music, literature, cinema. That's the what
when I'm not making music. Those are the things that
I'm deeply interested in. But then that turns into history

(05:22):
and travel and food and UH and all sorts of
different esoteric interests.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Okay, your two favorite movies of all time?

Speaker 3 (05:35):
Okay, well it's okay. My my favorite movie of all
time maybe is Marcel Carn's The Children of Paradise. I
think it's a movie that never fails to bring me
into a world that that doesn't exist, bring me into

(05:55):
a world of you know, the early days of the
stand age and UH in Paris on the Boulevard to
Crime with all these characters. You know, it's funny. A
lot of people maybe who don't know the film. You know,
when Bob Dylan is wearing the white makeup and the

(06:16):
hat with the flowers, he he that's Baptiste, one of
the main three characters in that film. He is the
soul of the art. He is the he is the
one that can reach anyone, you know, with his art
and his UH and his magic. You know. So, and
it's it's funny. There's a lot of UH that movie,

(06:38):
in that era of Bob Dylan, and and it's fun
I also I have a poster made it. You know,
that film was made at the very end of the
Nazi occupation of Paris. So by the time it comes
out that there's some posters in the world that are
reprinted on like, you know, the poster for the film
is reprinted on another poster, you know, so if you

(06:59):
get in the light right you can see it. They
didn't have the materials. And the guy who sold me
that poster many years ago, he was like, oh, you know,
this poster is pretty rare, and I was like, yeah,
he goes, I've only ever sold one other them. I
was like, oho, he said, do you mind telling me?
Said I sold it to Bob Dylan, and I was like,
I was like, how cool. My second favorite movie of

(07:22):
all time is I would say the film called with
Nell and I. I don't know if you know that
movie about two Oh yeah, fantastic movie. Bruce Robinson directed
and wrote the script. But that's more obscure. Let's just
let's just call it what it is. My second favorite movie,
a movie that is the funniest movie ever made. Bit

(07:45):
for bit, gag for gag, joke for joke, minute for
a minute is Young Frankenstein and.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Interesting.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
My wife and I read The Airport recently and I
was doing some stick from Young Frank Sotin and some
lady goes, oh, that, what is that. I'm like, I said,
Young Frank. Soon she goes, well, I'll have to write
that down. And I'm like, what what world are we?

Speaker 2 (08:08):
How old is your wife?

Speaker 3 (08:09):
My wife is forty four. It wasn't her. My wife
and I were together and someone else she knows. Of
course she knows what it is. I wouldn't have married
someone who doesn't know what Young Franke's done it. It
was a random person over here, I said, I said,
we were doing a bit from the movie.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
So what bit were you doing?

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Oh? I don't know? My bit that My favorite bit
from the movie are always the small details. Of course,
the funniest thing to me in the whole movie is
when they wheel the guy out at the beginning of
the movie and they're like, mister.

Speaker 5 (08:38):
Whatever here is you know gonna be as experiment and
he's like, if you just hop off the table, and
the guy like slides off the table and gene Wider's like,
nice hopping, and that really gets me. And when Peter
Boyle from the original movie is about to throw the
little girl into the pond and drown her or whatever,

(09:00):
but they cut to her parents because she the mother.
The mother comes down the stairs and the father is
hammering boards.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Over the window, and she goes, what are you doing?
And he goes, when monsters are loose, boards must be tight.
That's okay.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Let's switch gears. Give me two of your favorite books.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear. That's that's it, you
know that one starts to becomed. I guess I could
go more in like what and I can access what
I've read in the last you know, wild that is

(09:41):
stuck with me because I read so much. I love
this book called Naples forty four and it's about this
British he was in in the Military Police. He was
a high ranking officer in the Military Police and he
is assigned to Naples right after the Allied and invasion
repels the Germans and the fascists and they're retreating nor

(10:07):
you know, they're fighting the battle to go up the
Italian peninsula and he's stuck there. It is it's one
on one that it's a chilling horror story about the
you know, the horrors of war are happening with the
violence and the and the run. You know, what's going

(10:28):
on in those in those dramatic moments, but it's also
the aftermath of that that becomes the real you know,
where you see the you see the human condition at
its most tender and it's most poignant, but you also
see it at its most vile, destructive and evil. And

(10:50):
I think the juxtaposition of those things in terms of
just also being very interested in the subject, interested in
the time, very interested in Italian culture, and many good
friends from Naples, especially just an incredible, incredible book. And
I can't say enough about a guy passed away a
couple of years ago named Dale Pendle. I believe the Pharmacopoeia.

(11:13):
He has a three volume set that's basically an encyclopedia
on chemicals drugs, whether it be caffeine, amphetamines, LSD, DMT, heroin, cocaine, tobacco, anything,
any small thing. But he writes his text is very
much alive in the way Robert Graves. I don't know

(11:34):
Robert Graves. He's a poet. He intertwines his story with
a sort of history of human beings and their pursuit
for bliss. And you know, the book starts that he
retreats to some cabin way up in northern California to
have peace away from everything, to start to put this

(11:56):
book together. And he puts a sign over the front door.
Are all demons welcome. And I just always found that
to be amazing visual. They're very hard to find, and
they're they're kind of expensive. Now they're a trilogy, and
but they it's not they're in They're just beautiful and interesting.

(12:20):
And again I look for I really like things that
are alive, and I've had the unique opportunity and perspective
maybe because I, you know, am dyslexic, that I've been
able to read between the lines or put myself as
an outsider and see the fire and light within sometimes

(12:41):
that maybe other people wouldn't. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
What is going on in your house growing up that
you have these interests.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
Uh Well, like I said, I I don't know. I mean,
I mean my parents had a lot of books. And
I always laugh, you know what I mean, because when
you're when you're a kid and there's shelves and books,
my eye goes directly to helter skelter and I'm like
looking at all the crime photos and like the Vanson

(13:10):
murders and stuff. But I always had I think growing
up in Atlanta, and I think when you're a child,
obviously the filters aren't there. And growing up in a
city that I was very aware of for whatever reason,
that had been punished and had been burned to the ground.

(13:33):
The phoenix was something that I really understood as a
symbol early on, because that's the symbol of Atlanta. But also,
you know what I mean, and my dad, Rich and
I are third generation Atlantin's. We also my grandfather was
Schmada business, a Jewish guy, Ike Robinson, So I have
that side of the Atlanta experience. But being around in

(13:56):
the woods and stuff and seeing ghosts and feeling them
and no knowing that you know that people lost their
lives in these trenches and stuff. You know, I just
have always had a very active imagination we had. And
I think the other main trust me my parents, you know,

(14:16):
like I said, being dyslexic, like I couldn't tie my shoe,
But I really knew a lot about zulus in kindergarten,
you know what I mean. It was like, why is
your kid the only kid who can't tell time, but
he knows a shit ton about zuluz? You know, Like,
so who knows the way the mind works, well, I
guess scientists, but in my case, I know, but my

(14:40):
mom and dad also when they got together, had a
lot of records, you know what I mean. I read
an article not too long ago that the average family,
like in the fifties or late fifties to the mid
sixties maybe had eight or nine records, you know what
I mean. That would be your little record collection on
those little.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Of course ten things.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
We probably have two hundred and fifty records, which isn't
a lot to me now, but at the time, and
it was like, you know, I was just had a
I wanted to explore. So it's like, you know, like
this is oh, Jimmy Reid and Mose Allison and Lester Flatten,
Earl Scrugs and the Luvin brothers and uh more. You know.

(15:24):
I still have my dad's copy of the first Buffalo
Springfield mono copy with this for what It's worth sticker
on crossby Stills, Nash and Young signed a family stone.
You know. So there was a lot of different Johnny Guitar,
Watson records. You know, all sorts of things come to
mind when I think of and then as we get

(15:45):
as I get older, I'm obsessed with music, and you know,
these were the things that I could understand, you know
what I mean, These were things that made me feel
and made me feel a part of the world and
whatever little whatever that means. Looking out from a place
like Atlanta at that time, you know, I remember having

(16:06):
a distinct feeling of being very far away from the
rest of whatever America must feel like or look like.
And then at that time, you know, I luckily find
Kerouac and Burroughs and Ginsburg and like thousands of others
of us, Bob Dylan mins my dad. My dad was
the kind of guy who didn't buy Blonde on Blonde

(16:29):
because it wasn't the same Bob Dylan, you know. So
I grew up with that person that felt that kind
of as if rock and roll wasn't pure enough. You know.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
Okay, so you're going to school, did you know you
were dyslectic? Then they had tests or you only know
in retrospect.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
My mom knew something was different, and because of teachers saying, like,
you know, he really excels at this, but he's really
having trouble with some of these things. And you know,
this diagnosis takes place in the early seventies, you know,
and in the Deep South, I mean a I'm fifty seven.
We would be the first generation. I could be wrong,

(17:15):
but I know people a little bit older than me
who have subsequently been diagnosed as dyslexic and then being dyslexic.
There's a lot of It's not just one thing, of course,
but that I would be one of the first generations.
And my mom, in her tenacity and her wisdom, wanted

(17:35):
some answers, you know what I mean, and she found them.
And I was very lucky that there's a school in Atlanta.
It's still there, Skank Schooled. Unfortunate name for doctor Skanks.
But I would go to school and then go there
after school three days a week to you know, to
try to turn around what I could, and it never

(18:00):
The biggest gift of that was reading, you know what
I mean. But then again, the like part of my
thing is like I'm an avid reader. I can retain
a lot of information I've been, but I cannot spell,
to say, I mean, you know, when I when I
met my wife, I was like, listen, I'm going to
ask you to spell things and cleats. Just try to

(18:21):
refrain from disgust to shame or laughing at me. You know,
it just goes. I've never been able to do it.
But my mom recognized that, and she, you know, she
was calling, you know, from Atlanta in nineteen seventy three.
She's calling people at Harvard University to get answers, you
know what I mean. So I get the cerebral side

(18:43):
from my mom, and then I get something, you know,
I get something else from you know, talking about the
records and stuff. That my other earliest memories. My dad
was a folk singer. He was on ABC Paramount. He
had a group called the Appellations. They made two sides,
you know, and it was funny because he was immersed

(19:04):
in like traditional folk music, so his presentation would be
very unlike the kind of commercial folk records. You know.
He was kind of doing that serendipity sing sid rock
is you know, sid right down, bit let your yeah
girl in those big twelve stringth That kind of commercial
folks sound would be the couple of records he made.

(19:27):
But and you know, in the fifties, he he had
a hit record with a song called Booma. Dip Dip
was the top forty hit and it was more like
a I would consider like a Bobby Darren kind of
rock and roll song, you know, a little edge of
what was left of do wop and cool. It's a
really cool song. And he cut some other singles that

(19:51):
didn't do as well. But when he ended up back
in the South after the rock and roll phase, he
was in folk music and you know, when he was
home on a Saturday morning, whatever, he would pull out
the you know, his Martin is nineteen fifty three Martin,
which my brother you know, wrote she Talks Angels and
played on All Our still played on this newest record,

(20:15):
and he would sing and it would just open up
all of this because he would also my dad was
he would explain, like, okay, so this song comes from
originally is like what someone in Wales was singing like
a couple hundred years ago, and then by the time
it gets on a boat and comes here and it
ends up in Appalachia, it turns into this and that

(20:37):
kind of connection I always found not just interesting, but
very comforting in some weird way, you know. And I
think I had a a nate understanding that the song,
if you're a singer and a musician, that the music
we played in the song we sing is just this
one big song that's been going on for ever, you know,
since there's been people. And I loved murder ballads, and

(21:02):
I loved like the really dark side and stuff, you know,
I loved all those kind of songs and so and
then he would play records a lot too, and that
would be that would be you know, I learned so
much from that. I don't even know I'm learning at
the time, but I'm being able to put together and
you know, the Alan Lomack song of the South Box

(21:24):
that is still like a holy relic or something to me,
you know. And I still have my dad's copies of
those records.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
So what kind of kid are you? Do you have friends,
do you play sports? Or you alone in your room?

Speaker 3 (21:46):
What do you like? I played sports. I was the skinniest, scrowniest,
weirdest kid out there, but I had a lot of guts.
I played sports because it was fun. But I also
played sports for my dad, because you know, he was
scared to death that he would come home and I
would look like a you know, sixteenth century French duke

(22:09):
under a tree eating strawberries and lace things, reading poetry
or something. He had really been upset. But I love sports.
I had friends when we were little always, but you know, yes,
you know, the world was different in the last century
and a lot of your friend group were just whatever

(22:29):
kids you didn't want to beat up in the neighborhood
or didn't want to beat you up, and you know,
so I think it's different now, but I always managed
to find the kids that were you know, I'm sure
the kids that I was friends with were always a
little bit on the outside like me and being but
being able to laugh and being able to see to

(22:53):
be you know, that was another big thing. My dad
loved Jonathan Winners and Don Rickles and George Carlin and
you know Richard Pryor records. Growing up, I mean, I
had access to some very saucy language, but mom and
dad knew in some way that I had a more
adult relationship with the language, and I found it very funny,

(23:15):
very humanizing that he could take his pain and turn
it into something like that. You know, but you know,
you know, I guess we were weirdos. You know, we
looked normal on the outside, but we were pretty weird.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Have you always been this verbal?

Speaker 3 (23:33):
Yes, of course. I just told you I can't spell anything.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Okay, some people could come to it later in life.
So you're obviously very intelligent. But being this verbal has
it always worked for you or sometimes it works against you.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
It still works against me. I have to learn, and
you know, it's hard because in one way, I've always
felt that being a verbal creature like I am has
been in my sonar in a way, like a bat
trying to get through a dark you know, get out
of the cave, mouth about hitting U stalag tight or something.

(24:08):
You know, it's how I of course, as I've gotten older,
I have a little more control over it if I choose,
But you know, my again, it gets down to the
simple things. I find the love of my life seven
years ago, and like Camille is so wise and she

(24:30):
has such a depth of understanding, and if I get
if she's the first one to say, you know, you
can you know, kind of snap out and well just
put me in a perspective to realize. Like when I
was younger, I you know, it's like a young wizard
with his first power to like, you know, blow up
the castle tower. You know, your words can hurt, you know,

(24:52):
the poet's words are are his weapons as well. And
I felt that I probably use that, you know what
I mean? And so I mean, I know I did,
I know, I've I can upset people and hurt them
with the things I say just as much as I
can entertain them, enlighten them, and encourage them, you know,
So it becomes more of the poet's responsibility.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Really, have you been to therapy?

Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah? Yeah, I spent a lot a lot of years
in therapy, which really helped. And I think to be honest,
without that, and without the sort of awakening that like
finding my real partner represented, I don't think I could
have ever even actually been in a real, sincere place.

(25:44):
And I think my true character is is I would
like to think I have an authenticity that is uh,
that is obvious, you know, but that being that not

(26:08):
being a part of it, I couldn't be in a
place where Rich and I actually could be where we
are today, and I think Rich would be way more
available for it, you know what I mean. I don't
think it was an impossibility. I just didn't have I
just didn't see the roses, you know what I mean.
I didn't see the forest for the trees in that instant.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Oh okay, So famously, your relationship with Rich has been contentious.
I have two sisters. I'm the middle kid. I do
not have brothers, so that whole experience is only something
I can hear about. I didn't have it. Ay, to
what degree is the suppressed story? To what degree do
you get along? To what degree is therapy and anything

(26:50):
mellowed you such that you can get along? What's going
on here?

Speaker 3 (26:54):
I mean I don't. I wouldn't say that, like you
have to. It's like anything else. You know, if you
want to progress or if you want to change, it's
available for you. But you know, anything else is just
fucking lip service, right we you know, being of a
certain age, being Southern, I joke, but you know it's

(27:18):
a very English place, the South, the Atlanta we grew
up in, and English people, you know, usually aren't you know,
like it doesn't matter. It's like everyone all of a
sudden is the Queen of England. I don't care how
anyone feels. I'm queen. You know. It's like so I
don't think we were given the tools and or I

(27:40):
don't even think we knew that there were the tools
for that, just because of the way it was. And
then you throw in there, you know, it's funny with
my brother. He's really very when you're with Rich one
on one, he's very fun very open, charming guy, very intelligent, talkative.

(28:04):
But if you're but if you don't get that he
you know, he would have social anxieties that I don't have.
So for many years, you know people you know, and
then here's a guy who feels like that, who's thrust
into the world of and I'm I'm your partner in
the in the band, and I'm your brother, and I

(28:25):
you know, my dressing room, I like to play Funkadelic
records at full blast, have people dancing. I like to
get my my vibe going. Rich likes it to be
like his acoustic guitar, very calm, very mellow. He doesn't
like a lot of things coming around, you know what
I mean. And in the past I would kind of be,

(28:46):
you know, people like what's up with him and be
like I don't know what the fuck? You know what
I mean, Like why aren't you like this? And then
in his mind he would be like, why do you
have to be like that, you know, all the time?
Can it just be like peaceful one time? And like,
to me, that is my plays. So I think when
we're younger, and then you throw in the high Velocity
Avalanche that was our early success. You want that shit.

(29:10):
And you think you read the you read the Jim
Morrison book and you read the fucking you know, True
Adventures on the Rolling Stones or whatever. You think you
know what it's going to be, but it's not, you know.
I mean, it was funny at the end. In the
beginning of nineteen ninety, we're out here getting ready to
start the whole first album tour and stuff, and Rich

(29:30):
and I were staying at this Lee Bag motel that's
now the parking lot that used to be by the
Tower Records down there, and bless you, my love, and
we get a phone call. It's like Izzy Stradlin wants
you guys to come over from Guns n' Roses, and
like they're you know, they're fucking guns and Roses now,
but they were really fucking guns n' Roses in nineteen

(29:52):
eighty nine or whatever, you know. I mean, like that
shit was still like uh, you know, and we love
guns and Rows and we go to his house and
we're like, wow, this is cool, man. And I always
thought it was cool because he was lifted listening to
aftermath that stones record and that's what And I was like,
all right, cool, I'm digging this. You know, it's not easy.

(30:16):
And I'm like okay, and he's like, but we start talking.
He goes, you, guys, you don't you won't be prepared.
But when your rocket ship blast off, just hang on, man,
hang on for dear life and rich and I are like,
what is he talking about? You know what I mean?
There was no there were only besides ourselves. There were

(30:37):
only you know, like George d two people in the
world that believed that we would do the things that
we ended up doing. But I always look back on
that and said, hey, he told us. You know what
I mean. We had no you know, we had really
no way of understanding what he was telling us. But

(30:59):
that was all I always thought. Hey, so if you run, Itzy,
say thanks man.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
You know, so what was it like?

Speaker 3 (31:07):
Well, it was you know. The other thing is I
think we were you know, I tell people and it
seems weird. Now there's reality TV famous and TikTok famous,
and there's like this kind of famous and celebrity famous
and blah blah blah, and we were rock and roll famous,
you know, and it was different. I mean, I think

(31:27):
the one thing that was that was a challenge to
get over is Okay, so you're famous. Not only are
they playing your records on radio stations all over the
world all the time, but now you're on MTV. And
when you're on MTV, that means I'm on there with
with a lot of other bands, and so the people
can see the Young Black Crows on jealous again, hard

(31:50):
to handle that all that shit can come on MTV
and they'll see. But that also gives the person at
the bar you go to, like, I fucking don't like
that song, you know what I mean. So because you're
on MTV, because it's a visual medium, you're also now
having to deal with not you know, hey, man, backstage
everyone loves you. When you go after the show to

(32:11):
some rock and roll bar, there's gonna be some dude
in a Motorhead shirt that just doesn't like your jib,
you know what I mean, or like whatever. So that
was something to deal with.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Okay. Was that really just jealousy of the fact that
you were famous as opposed to what your music sounded
like at who you really work.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yeah, I mean, either way, we were still sort of
coming out of our you know, living in the undesirable
part of town, no money. You know, we were pretty
for suburban kids. We were pretty street wise and we
were tough, and we didn't really we hadn't learned that
if somebody gets in your face that you don't like,

(32:53):
you know, fight or what you know, give them a
smack back or whatever. You know. So, yeah, you're absolutely
right about that, but we were in no position to
really see that then. We were just knew that there
was a threat.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Okay, so is he tracks you down before your record
after your record hits, which is very quickly. What are
some of the good things that happened?

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Unimaginably beautiful things happened. Number One, we had. Number One,
we when like when the van went down to Orange
County to open for Junkyard on the first night in
the Shake Your money Maker tour. If nothing had ever
happened after that tour, we would have honestly felt in
our minds we did. What we really set out to

(33:39):
accomplish was to get out of Atlanta. And maybe this
goes back to you know, the Beatnick and me. I
wanted to get out on the road. I wanted to
see what it's about I wanted to I wanted to
feel what it's like, and we wanted to work hard,
and we knew that there was something there. I don't
think we knew that we would have to deal with

(34:00):
that on the first record. I thought maybe, like some
other bands, you make a record, people like it, you
make another one, you figured it out, you have a
little trajectory that's not just you know, neither. It doesn't
matter because that's exactly what happened, and that's the most
beautiful thing that could ever happen. But like, you know,
I can almost remember the entire uh, it's inerary because

(34:25):
we were in a van and you know, the first
time you're in San Diego, first time I'm in Phoenix,
first time I'm in Texas. You know, like this is Texas,
Like what the fuck? You know? But the real special
things would be the laughing would be the fucking frust tired.
You know, where's one point of that first leg of
the tour. We did eighteen nights in a row, and shit,

(34:48):
you know, and starting to you know, our entrance into
the music business as well, figure out like, oh, we're
at the distributors of convention and now we're at Howard Stern,
I mean, Howard's Stern, and we're doing all all that
kind of stuff. But the things that will always resonate
and I'll always remember, like the very first time we
played in Austin, Texas, we didn't even have a dressing room.

(35:09):
We were in the room changing where like the ice
machines were so people kept coming in and filling up
the ice buckets. But we were changing and there's a
knock on the door and some security guard who didn't
know he goes, hey, there's some guy named Ronnie Lane
out here. He wants to see you. And we were like,
he didn't know who he was, you know, like, fuck me, really, Ronnie.

(35:32):
And we opened the door and there's Ronnie. You know,
he's at the end of his life and m ass
is really debilitating horrible disease. I don't really know any
good diseases. But he was in his wheelchair and his
partner brought him and we were just stunned. And he
said and we were like, well, yeah, mister Lane, lovely

(35:53):
to meet you. And he was like, oh, yeah, you know,
I just wanted to come down here and meet you guys,
you know, because we said so many great things about
my bands and my music, and you know, I just thought, well,
if they're in town, I just want to come over
and say hello. And we were. I mean, my heart
was just like wow, I loved that music. I love

(36:16):
that music. And as I've grown older, I realized, like
that was so special, and you know, and then the
other one I remember is by the time we get
through Atlanta and we come up the East Coast and
we get to New York, and we played this place
that used to be there called the Cat Club, and
we had played CBGB's as Mister crows Garden, and we

(36:39):
played a place called Drums as Mister Crow's Garden. So we,
you know, if we could get a gig in New York,
we'd drive sixteen hours for one gig, you know, and
we would spend a few days just getting completely out
of our heads, you know, but not rich, but all
the rest of us. But we're in the same situation.
We finished the show, we go to the dressing room,
going to change, hit the club, hit the town, you know,

(37:02):
and there's a knock on the door and it's Ian Hunter,
you know, the great one of the great rock and
roll lyricists, great front man, I mean, Matha Hoople his
first solo records, one of my favorite rock and roll
records ever made. I mean, and he there he is.
He's standing there with the Ian Hunter hair. He had
a black velvet. I mean, he looked amazing and he

(37:24):
was like, all right, see here the Black Crows. I
just wanted to meet you guys, like I haven't heard
a real rock and roll band in a while, and
that was fucking great and stuff. And I was just like,
holy shit, man, Ian Hunter wanted to meet us, you
know what I mean, Like it really, I'll always remember
that because he was like a you know, and he
still is a real hero and one of my favorite.

(37:47):
He wrote great rock and roll lyrics, you know, and
he still does. My brother and I are on his
new record coming out.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Okay. Under the best of circumstances, being on the road
is hard. They have all the satulation at the show.
Then you get in the van with same people you've
known for too many years. Takes hours to come down.
You can't sleep. However, many people start taking drugs to cope,
and many people partake of the fruits of the road.

(38:17):
This was before cell phone cameras, so you are a
bona fide rock start, to what degree are you living
the rock lifestyle of sex and drugs.

Speaker 3 (38:28):
Well, to me, I've always the drugs were always far
more important than casual sex. I mean, let's be honest,
I had priorities. But the Shaker money Maker tour, we're
so busy and we're still on ten dollars a day.

(38:49):
I mean, you know, by the time we're on tour
with Aerosmith, you know, we're in a tour bus with
a truck and we're opening for Ariosmith and we're making
five hundred dollars a night. I mean, we're in debt
pretty much until the end of nineteen ninety when the
record starts, you know, really selling big numbers, and then
our of course, our guarantees are going up. So I mean,

(39:12):
the it's still just pretty innocent psychedelics, weed, a lot
of booze, some pills occasionally some coke and stuff. We
and but by the time we know, by the time
all the accounting is done for that record and we've
moved on into the next phase, at least for me

(39:33):
and some of the members in the band, Yeah, we've
moved on too much. I mean, the booze, the weed,
the acid, the shrooms. They're all still happening, but we've
really amped it up with like the other sort of
powders and pills and things. Again, you know, it's funny.
I mean, I guess there would be an argument about

(39:56):
substance abuse, and I've seen it, and we've all lost friends.
It's and we've lost family members and it's a it's
a real subject matter, and I don't take it lightly.
But during that time also, I you know, to me,
I would say by the end of the nineties, I
was getting to a point where I was kind of like,
I'm really I don't know why my heart is so broken.

(40:19):
I'm really disillusioned, and I'm really depressed, and I think
probably at that point in my life, I'm definitely not
enjoying it. I'm just keeping up with, you know, just
chasing something that probably had eluded me earlier in the decade,
which was just like a derangement of the senses. Is

(40:40):
a powerful tool for the poet, for the artists. My
heroes are, you know, my I have three heroes that
like encompass a lot, sid Barrett Graham Parsons and Alex Chilton.
And then above that, in the archetypes. There's Keith Richards
and Jerry Garcia. So it's like, I I'm not you know,

(41:02):
I'm not. I'm not trying searching for them. I'm searching
for there must be something in this, and I did.
I found incredible inspiration. You know. I'm one of those
people who I had a fucking amazing time, you know
what I mean. Like and and I was always the

(41:23):
kind of person always in my mind, I don't have
that Puritan streak, that inebriation or anything like that denotes
weakness or a bad quality in a person, you know
what I mean. Of course, if your subsequent behavior turns
into something negative for the people around you, or if

(41:44):
you're drunk and kill someone, I'm not talking you know
what I mean. I'm just talking about I was also
surrounded in the Black Crows submarine, in the Cult of
the Black Crows, so we were, you know, safely in
our own cocoon in a way, right, And and you know,

(42:06):
especially the early most of the nineteen ninety to nineteen
ninety nine, you know, not everyone is built for the road,
you know what I mean. Like, I've seen a lot
of talented people, really talented people, really sturdy people, solid people,
and they're like, man, I just can't do this. I
don't want to do this, you know, because it's talk

(42:28):
about a derangement of the senses. I mean, I remember
I didn't know what a panic attack was, you know
what I mean, Who fucking cared when it's nineteen ninety
and you're like, going, you have to get on stage
at the Hammerstein Odium in London and you're like, I've
been I'm I would just go in a hotel and
lay on the floor in my clothes and stare at
the ceiling and hope when I opened my eyes that

(42:50):
I wasn't dead or crazy, you know what I mean.
But that's normal. That was part of it. I mean,
I thought that would just be okay.

Speaker 4 (42:58):
So you have a glass of water going to you know,
give yourself a little like all right. And it wasn't
just drugs or alcohols, just the constantly moving, constantly, flying,
constantly on a bus, new hotel, new hotel, do the gig,
geta ring, do the gig.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
Do hotel. And like I said, I would never change anything,
and it was I'm but we did have a certain
mentality of and as he Straddling said, you just hang
on for dear life, you know, and luckily, I think
Rich and I have always had this great passion gets
back to the mystery. You know, we've we've felt it

(43:35):
in a way that definitely felt anti authority, but we
also felt like that we had one innate understanding is
that the music business has no soul. It's just business.
And the only way we could protect something that we
felt was very pure and this thing that we felt

(43:58):
that music gave us that music if we were going
to be a part of this. You know, my record's
in the same record store as the Loneous Monk. My
record's in the same record store is Skip Spence or whatever.
It doesn't matter that there was some you know, not
to repeat myself, but there was something holy about that
as well, and something very deeply involved in natural magic,

(44:24):
and that if we could tap into that and be
a part of that, that we would be very defensive
and very protective of whatever. You know. It's like the
movie Quest for Fire when the guy has the little
fire and the thing and they're trying to save it
from the other people and it like goes out and
they're all like, you know, like we didn't want it

(44:45):
to go out. And no matter what we've been through,
and even on our own, I don't think we've allowed.
I think it's remained that that's a certain purity and
a certain I don't know, I think a certain reverence
that we get to make music and be a part
of this vibration.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
You know, Okay, Sure, I'm ten dollars a day. You
have this mega successful album, You're on the road constantly.
Are you seeing any money? Are you being ripped off?
Are you blowing the money? Are you banking the money?

Speaker 3 (45:27):
I'm it's funny because you're talking to somebody who I
don't really have a relationship with money that would allow
me to give you a solid answer. I'm getting better
as I get older, but part of how I work

(45:48):
and my mind works, and it has been difficult. And
to be honest, I'm sure I've been ripped off. I'm
sure there's been unfair things in my life. I'm sure
I've seen things, uh fall through the cracks and I
didn't even know they were falling, you know what I mean.
It's I can live with that. It was always I

(46:13):
just I and and maybe in my naivete I didn't
want to be a part of that. So If anything,
the great mistake I made was in my laziness, in
my sort of to be blissfully unaware doesn't really isn't
an excuse. I can't say that someone ripped me off.
I can't say that, but I'm sure within but between

(46:35):
then and there's you know, but I think we you know, also,
we were set up like a real band, like you know,
hey man, the fucking Beatles split everything, you know what
I mean, Like we didn't know about fucking publishing and
fucking partnerships and you know what I mean, we were
really uh, we just we were really focused on the

(46:56):
on the craft, and then we were focused on building
the culture and the art around the craft. You know.
So I think Rich was probably a little more savvy,
but I would We didn't go to the London School
of Economics.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Well do you still own your publishing and would you
ever sell it?

Speaker 3 (47:15):
I did? We do, and yes I would at some point,
you know what I mean, if it seemed like, I mean,
the world has changed so much. You know, when I
got into the business, that was the one cardinal sin
that you would never ever do that, and now that's
really been reversed, and I you know, to me, it

(47:36):
would have to be, you know, we'd have to see
what the circumstance is. And also in my situation, you know,
I have a partner who feels as deeply about all
of this as I do in my brother, and you know,
I think the great gift of this reconciliation is that
we're available for each other to to make good decisions,

(48:01):
you know, to make and we're surrounded by people in
our careers that are facilitating good decisions and nurturing our
relationship because you know what, it proves to benefit everyone.
And again, no matter what we've been through, no matter

(48:22):
what the world looks like, no matter how people listen
to their music, no matter blah blah blah, it all
started because Rich and I thought we could write a song.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
Okay, So in this thirty years thirty five years of
your fame, have you ever woken up one day and say, fuck,
I'm broke, I gotta go to work, or I got
to sell my house for my car, or has there
always been enough cash there to make it work.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
I've sold a house, but I've had to get rid
of a house, you know what I mean. I've I've
had yes, of course, I don't think there's anyone who's
survived a thirty year plus career who can't, you know,
look back at some point and see when things were
threadbare and when things were in full bloom, you know.

(49:06):
But then again, I, you know what, nothing can it's
nothing can touch my Uh yes, that's that's so, That's
something that happens to lots of people. And then there's
other people who are dealing with you know, abject you
know what I mean. So it's like I, I've always

(49:30):
been prepared for whatever fate puts in front of me,
you know, and I want to be I want to
be able to be. I don't want to become so
myopic about uh one thing that I don't see everything else.
You know. Again, as I've gotten older and I have
people around, I make much different decisions and I'm much

(49:53):
more aware of like what the future looks like, you know,
uh and for the things that I want to accomplish,
wish personally with taking care of my wife as we
get older, and my kids and stuff, you know, like
things like that.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Okay, the reunion, you know, the business is flipped where
now it's about the road and promoters are always looking
for acts to consell tickets. Was the reunion driven by
the promoter? And why did you decide to do it
at this point?

Speaker 3 (50:26):
I mean, and nothing is. You have to understand how
crazy rich and I are. Nothing is ever driven by
anyone except how we feel and what we what we
you know, the real It's not like it's not like
you know, yeah you know this. You know when I

(50:47):
blew up the band and said, you know, you guys
want to continue doing this, you give me some more money.
I did that because I knew everyone would fucking shit
a brick and I was never going to get that money.
But I did it just to be like, you know,
this is how I'm going to put the brakes on
because I know this will be unacceptable to everyone. But
that next, you know, if that was January first, the

(51:09):
next January first promoted, Hey there's money and if you
guys want to get out there, because like you said,
we're worth something in the marketplace, right, every every little
piece of time, there was offers on the table for
us to get back together. I was happily involved with
my solo group. I wasn't even adjacent to the regular

(51:29):
music business. I was out on my own in the
most DIY independent way I could find having nothing to do.
If I when we started my solo project, the CRB,
if I went to a little club in Santa Cruz, California,
and on that fly or that newspaper, if I even
saw the fucking word black crows, we would pack up
and not even do the soundcheck, you know, And that's

(51:50):
the way I wanted that. But that same time, every
year it's coming up through some source or another. So
you know, again, as I just told you about my
relationship with some things, Rich and I, we're not like
we really do dance to the beat of our own drummer,
and things have to really feel right, and we have

(52:12):
to there's an altruism that just exists Enrich and ize.
It doesn't take away from our ambition, it doesn't take
away from drive or anything we want, but we feel
that way. So you know, after from twenty thirteen to
twenty nineteen and all the things I haven't spoken to

(52:34):
Rich I haven't, you know, it just so happens that
things coalesce in a certain way, and that my wife
opens up my heart and my life and my mind
and my soul to like a lot of new things
and thinking a different way. And getting out of my
own way and the importance of family, and you know,
and I could start to break it down and look

(52:56):
at things in a different perspective. I could start to
miss rich and feel rich, and you know, and then
what's the itch? You know, Like, our lives as family
are intertwined together because of the music we've made and
the experiences that we've shared, and the laughs that we've
had and the fights that we've had. And you know,

(53:17):
you know, our dad passed away eleven years ago, and
our mom's in Nashville, and you know, she's in her
mid eighties, you know what I mean. So it was
just time for everything to sort of start to heal
itself and come together. I mean, I couldn't have done
that by myself. Again, I'm lucky to have so much
love in my life and stuff. I would tend as

(53:41):
a sagittarian to dig my heels in the dirt and
be very stubborn, you know.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Okay, So why make a record now number one?

Speaker 3 (53:55):
Because no matter what anyone says, thanks buys whatever we
write songs and the mode to us, even though it
might be antiquated or archaic or whatever you want to say,
is I still think that put in your best ten
eleven songs, twelve songs, whatever, wrapping that up into album

(54:18):
is still a viable way to represent where we are
as artists and songwriters that we have the opportunity to
do that still is special and unique. And like I
said a little earlier, that's Rich and ize entrance into
the entire world that is, you know, that we've lived

(54:41):
in for the last three and a half decades. Damnit,
you're cool. It's my dog. Sorry, And of course, given
of course Rich and I are going to write. That's
what we do, that's what we love, you know, And
no matter what's happened, and took me a while because
I wanted to get away from it and do something else.

(55:03):
But you know, when Rich Rich plays Rich can play
me like the very first little thing on a guitar,
and it instantly sets the stage for like emotional content,
for the image and the scene I want to write,
the visual and all that stuff comes together very quickly.
But the unique part of it is or or again,

(55:29):
to get back to the magic or the mystery of
it is, I don't know. You know, Rich might think
in his mind that song is a love song, or
you know, I don't know. Maybe he thinks this song
of I don't. We don't discuss that. We don't discuss
the idea. Rich plays me something and it and it
inspired and it clicks something in me, and then I

(55:51):
start feeling something and then I start writing and singing.
And we've never discussed it, and I don't think we
ever will. It's something we do. I tell you this.
We know when we like it, and we know when
something's good, and we know when something's not good. We
know when something needs you know, and we work hard
at that. You know, George du Coulius taught us back
in the eighties. You know, one of our first, our

(56:14):
first singles, jealous Again from Shaking Moneymaker, And I remember
I always look at jealous Again as a really important
song because you know, we were a band up until
that point, we were one thing. And then that was
like the first song that that showed up like That's
how I always referred to it, semi jokingly. That's our

(56:37):
first grown up song we wrote, and that we found
like some stuff that works for us and the griff,
the lyric, the melody that you know, all the things.
But while we're working on that, you know, we didn't
sit down and write that song in one go. We
would have that song and we you know, George would
be in Atlanta, but he was still he was A

(56:58):
and R and A and Records in New York, so
we was still living in New York. So we would
you know, I have a little you know, boom box
in our room and we would with the condensed mic
and the cassette, we would record what we were working
on and jealous again, well I will. It's just a
great example of you know, we'd be like, yeah, this
is this is good, and then we'd send it to
him and get on the phone when he got to

(57:19):
be like, that's pretty good, but maybe you should get
back in there, and we'd go fuck and we'd get
in there and then maybe we had another little bit
pretty good, but it's not dood, you know. So he
instilled in us this work ethic of leaving no stone
unturned but also trusting your you know, it wasn't like
we we don't. We don't. We won't suffer to go

(57:42):
down the road of something we know isn't feeling good
to us. We're not mathematician musicians, we don't we're not
formulaic in that way. I mean, yes, in the verse chorus,
versus chorus, solo kind of out that kind of shit,
but not in the way that we get from point
A to point b as songwriters. It's all visceral. It's

(58:05):
all feeling, and it's all kind of you know, it's
an overused word, but it's for us. It's a vibe thing.
It's vibe.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
Okay. So when do you guys start writing songs you
reunite prior to COVID is it something you've been doing
for years or you said, listen, it's time to make
a record.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
No, I mean, because we didn't speak from you know,
twenty thirteen to twenty nineteen so or twenty fourteen, whenever
that tour was over, not that we spoke that much.
You know, Rich is just like I am. I'm constantly.
I mean, I wrote hundreds of songs for my solo project.
He was doing his. But wow, when this starts to

(58:47):
come about, you know, he's got riffs, he's got pieces,
he's got ideas, and I always have ideas and I
have my little lyric pieces and stuff. I mean, I
think one of the the other things that makes this record,
our new record, so powerful is we really went, you know,
as the years went by and we get into the

(59:08):
two thousands, I'm bringing a song occasionally. We're continuing to
write together, but Rich'll have one by himself that he
wrote the lyrics and singings and not you know what
I mean. We have we're starting to move into that,
but for this I felt, you know, I mean, I
haven't picked up a guitar since this started, you know
what I mean. And I was playing guitar in the
Black Crows at the end of the last thing, and

(59:30):
I was like, I want to get back to what
I feel is really the pure thing of the Black Crows,
you know, and that's Rich And I was writing and
then for me to get on stage and be the
front man, because I think the front the type of
performer that I am is also something kind of of

(59:51):
the past. So while I am available to do it,
I want to do it in a way that I
feel excited about, you know. And I want to get
up there and do the thing that I think maybe
makes me different from the other singers as well. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
Okay, how do you literally do it? You have Elton John,
Bernie Topping. Bernie Topin writes lyrics one place he Gizzendale
now works on the piano. He's got a song. There
are certainly people who say, not so much recently, I'm
in cycle. I got to deliver an album. I'm going
to write now, so I record. There are other people

(01:00:31):
say I'm waiting for inspiration. In Nashville, they literally have
songwriting sessions. What happens with you?

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
None of that applies to us. I'm constantly inspired by
everything going around me. My imagination is working in overtime
at all times. I live breathed music, and you know,
everything around me has the possibility of being beautiful. You know,
I've hate in a weird way. And because we are

(01:01:00):
record company, because the Black Crows are Silver Arrow Records,
there's and we don't take big advance. We didn't take
an advance, you know what I mean. That shit's gone
and that's kind of the best part of the modern thing.
I think there's too much sort of I'm glad everyone
has access for but not everything is interesting and not

(01:01:22):
everything is good. You know, that idea that I was saying,
that George pushed us to work and work and work
and work, is why that record resonated at a certain
frequency with people right and and if you know, if
nineteen eighty nine was today, maybe those songs that we
didn't didn't make better would be the ones that are
out there, you know what I mean. And I know

(01:01:44):
that sounds old fashion or whatever, but I believe in
the craft, and I believe in hard work. Is the
difference between something that's okay and something that could be
on the verge of greatness.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Okay, let's get a little more granular. Your brother sent
who will file, or he comes to your house and
plays the guitar.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
We do both. I mean during COVID. During COVID, we
obviously couldn't be together. He was in Nashville and I
was living in northern California in West Marine County. Just
so happened that my neighbor had a really nice little
home studio in his in his place there, so Rich
could send the files I could work on them. Hold

(01:02:28):
on a second, bam, Hey, sorry, my Jamaican street dog.
That's the mind of her own, believe it or not. Ideally,
it's better when Rich and I are in a room
because we have a psychic I don't know if it's

(01:02:50):
obviously it's because we're related, but maybe some of it
is something else. But we can do things you know
on the you know, sin me stuff, But it seems
like all the details and all the important stuff gets
done in a room together.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
How do you end up using gay Joys?

Speaker 3 (01:03:18):
Uh? Well, Jay, you know, we had a short list
of very talented, amazing producers, and we had great, great
meetings and we I mean it was like it was
it was kind of cool to be the bell of
the ball, you know what I mean. We were like
and again there was just some vibe with Jay that

(01:03:41):
was super cool, and I really felt in our initial
conversation that he understood a little bit about about what
we were trying to do. I mean, you know, we
we we knew Rich and I had conceptualized making a
very up tempo energy a rock record, you know. I mean,

(01:04:02):
I think that was the playing Shake Your money Maker
every night for two years. I realized, like, wow, that's
what we did then, and would be cool to continue
this next part of whatever we are or whatever we're
going to be in the same manner, not revisiting anything,
not going back in time, not plagiarizing ourselves. But we

(01:04:23):
want that energy of like you know that that's what
fuels rock and roll. I want it to almost be
falling off the track, you know what I mean, Like
we want it to be rough. And you know, in
the same way that when we go when we've done
the touring, not in just the past, but in the

(01:04:44):
recent past since we've got back together. I mean, I
don't know how many concerts you go see, but most
bands today don't even use amps. They put digital referencing
their guitars through the PA and it's very quiet on
stage and everyone has inner monitors and and we don't
do that. We are chaos machines on stage. There's sound moving,

(01:05:07):
there's ams blowing sound and monitors and no thing in
our ears, and it's just a lot that's more alive
to us as well. And we need that for the
kind of you know, we need that to set the
scene we want to set, you know, I mean, we
believe in that. Still we were that way, you know,

(01:05:28):
we were the first band. I remember by the time
nineteen ninety two comes around, people from other bands would
see us and they're like, you guys don't have Chordlet
you know what I mean, We had chords attached to
everything and we were trying to go you know what
I mean, we've always been and not on any sort
of agenda. We've just always kind of been the opposite

(01:05:52):
of whatever's going on. You know, that's probably the definition
of dyslexia.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
I think, Okay, how's your hearing?

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
I mean, my hearing is pretty good. Knock on wind.
I hear all the high end stuff I hear. You know.
I work still in the studio and we're fucking loud.
But I you know, when I'm in a crowded restaurant
and it's like a den of noise everywhere, I'll be like,
what did you say? You know, but our hearings, my

(01:06:22):
hearing's good, you know what I mean. I'm okay.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
So what is j at in the studio?

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
Jay is a person who well, number one, he's very
easygoing guy, you know, and you work. We were working
at Neon Cross his studio in Nashville. So he's completely
dialed in in a technological way, in an engineering way,
and he has like a team of It's like, you know,

(01:06:50):
I've never been in a recording session and like if
you break a string, it's like a NASCAR pit crew.
There's like three guys over there and everybody's like, you know,
on the clock, you know. But and I imagine Jay
adjusts to the different temperaments and attitudes of whatever artist
he's working with. But for us, you know, like I

(01:07:13):
think Rich really felt heard and he got to express
his ideas. I'm the way I am as you can tell,
I'm like a little more like what about that? My
information comes really fast and Jay's kind of in the middle.
So it was a really good tempo, you know, to work.

(01:07:36):
And I think Jay also brought a real discerning ear
to helping sort of pick the material out of the
lot of songs we had. I mean, I think by
the time we were with Jay, we've kind of narrowed
it down to eighteen twenty things, and then by the
time we're get to the studio, we've narrowed it down

(01:07:57):
to twelve things. And by the time we finished the
record in two and a half weeks, and then it's like, okay,
this is like a real record and it's gonna be
ten songs, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
Okay. Also, Jay is a songwriter, not only a producer.
So what degree did he change the songs.

Speaker 3 (01:08:16):
I don't think he'd changed the songs that much. I
think he added some musical architecture, maybe that rich and
I wouldn't. I don't. I don't. I wouldn't say they
were compositional in that way, but I would say he
But you know what, that was a good thing too,
because he pushed us into like, well, maybe you could
have something a little more in that than just what

(01:08:38):
you're doing. Maybe there's something musical there, maybe there, you
know what I mean. Maybe, And I think it's very
sophisticated what he does, but it's very natural to him.
And that was and he you know, he can he
plays guitar, some little bit of guitar. Here's keyboards there.
So I think because of his knowledge, it really it's

(01:09:01):
not like he's just sitting behind a board. He's really
a part of what's going on in the musical language
of it. And I and again, you know, it's nice
that the dynamic works out so easy because you know,
it's I part of our us versus them, especially in

(01:09:24):
the first decade of the band with not being able
to really trust people there. You know, I always thought,
I mean my thing forever was if somebody from the
record company told me anything, I'd be like, why the
fuck would I listen to you? Man? I mean, you
have thirty bands on your roster forty bands, fifty bands,

(01:09:46):
I have one band, I'll if any And what's the
answer from the guy from the record company. You're making
a big mistake. I said, well, that's my fucking mistake
to make, not yours, do you know what I mean?
That's that's kind of it. Sounds like we were being
like horrible, But I thought there was a real pragmatism
to that in terms of what I could live with

(01:10:07):
down the road, you know, and what I'm the one
who has to live with the album, not you. You'll go
on to the next thing and the next thing, and
you'll drop the you'll drop the band that didn't meet
those financial expectations, those commercial expectations, and so that I again,

(01:10:27):
I was there was nothing about me, you know. I
always hate like you see like these I hate. I
shouldn't say. I just don't understand. When you see like
a documentary about a metal band or something, they're like,
I mean, and then when their careers are going down,
they're like, it's like the label didn't even care what
we did. I'm like, why would you think they ever
gave a shit? What are they your cousin? You know

(01:10:48):
what I mean? I knew one thing when I when
I started in the bit, when we were we were
outside the business, and then you're making when you're only
in the music business, when you're making the music businesiness money.
Now you're in the music business, right. I mean it's
oversimplifying things, but but I was always like, yeah, you

(01:11:09):
think these this is a real conversation. I'm not having
a real conversation. This is like, uh, this is a
made up conversation. These are pleasantries, you know what I mean.
They love the record that sold the most. They don't
care what it sounds like, what it looked like, what
it is anything, you know what I mean. And I'm
just not like that. I wanted. I wanted. I want

(01:11:30):
to sell a lot of records. I want to be popular,
but I'm not going to be something. I'm not for
someone else to do it. And that still is kind
of strong with us.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Told me about a couple of arguments you had with
the label.

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):
The way. It's funny because you know, you know Mark
to do he was he was the one. It wasn't
an argument. But I was always mad that when our
third record of Marca came out, everyone was looking for
the big chorus, this is like the grunge like it's
the avalanche of grunge. It's the flannel avalanche culturally, and

(01:12:06):
I thought that the one written so A Conspiracy is
a song that's the first single on that record. And
I was furious because the album starts with a track
called Gone, and that was my manifesto to be a
part of like the same sort of I don't know,
heroin chic or whatever. I just thought that culturally politically,

(01:12:28):
that was the track we lead with, and and and
you know, that was one of those things that like Nope, nope,
you're wrong. And then then I always thought A Conspiracy
was a weak single. Uh, that would be like an argument.
I mean we've made whole records that were and we

(01:12:49):
make a record before a Marca that we called Tall,
and that record was just no, no, it's doesn't sound
I'm like you you know, and I would be like,
you know, there's no big guitar riffs, there's none of that,
and that would like infuriate me. But then that would
like people around also would be like, oh, get to

(01:13:13):
Rich and say, hey, you know, your brother, you know,
that doesn't sound like remedy or whatever. You know, and
on things like, oh, Columbia Records was a fucking nightmare.
People like Donnie Heiner, you know, fucking go to his
fucking office. Here he is living this giant like this

(01:13:34):
is the ship. I'm happy he's gone in the music business.
Don Heiner in his big office and his fucking hovercraft
and his helicopter and all that bullshit. You know what
I mean? Fuck you, man, who the fuck are you?
What do you know about anything? You'd be selling fucking
of admits or fucking snow tires or something. He didn't
give them. Fuck well, you're going to talk to artists
like this, and uh, you know I remember they were

(01:13:58):
like you should he like, you should cover a rocks
Off by Primal Scream. I was like, they're fucking copying me.
I'm not kidding. Have you heard it? You know it's
a cool song or whatever, good for Primal Scream. But
I'm like, man, you didn't fucking you didn't get the
memo about the Black Crows, did you? You know what
I mean? Like, so shit like that would be like

(01:14:20):
just make me infuriated, you know what I mean? Like
why am I? Why am I in this guy's office?
You know what I mean, why am I sitting here
with his fucking babe ruth baseball bat or whatever the
fuck he had on the wall, you know what I mean.
I was like, I want to, I want to I
want to be backstage with George Clinton right now.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
Okay, were your manager and each and other people on
your side or they were taking the label song.

Speaker 3 (01:14:47):
I think they were taking that how can we get
the most cash out of this side? And you and
we were just you know, we were just whatever, you
know what I mean, And that's leaping I do. Yeah, Yeah,
that's that's no fault. That's just the way it was.

(01:15:09):
If it was anyone's fault, it's me and for me
and rich not being sort of area died enough to
you know, make changes or choices or you know what
I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:15:22):
But I think that was kind of the.

Speaker 3 (01:15:24):
Nature of I think that's just the nature of of
course of the business. We've seen that greed and avarice
sort of you know, and I say all the time,
like we where we are like today I was telling
you is like I think we feel so taken care

(01:15:46):
of and you know, I mean, you know, we've known
marked idea. It's been managing us now since twenty nineteen,
since nineteen eighty nine when we were marched into his
office when he was the radio guy at Geffen, like
who are these kids? They? Who are you? And we
hit it off and we had a relationship, and you know,
we there's none of our success from that day without

(01:16:08):
someone like Mark Deda, you know what I mean. So,
but now because we're all grown ups and we've gone
through it, we've gone through we can be in a
much easier working environment. And you know what where a
lot Mark's been through it too, all the things that
acts he's managed, the labels he's run, and you know,
he's a warrior of the music business past, present and future.

(01:16:32):
And it allows Rich and I also to make better decisions,
you know what I mean, because we don't. We feel
there's a level of trust and we feel there's a
level of understanding, you know, but that goes with our
with everyone around us. You know, that goes to our
our lawyer, that goes to our agents, and you know
what I mean, that goes down to the how we

(01:16:53):
want to go about merch deal or whatever. You know
what I mean. So I think Rich and I are
far more savvy as well in terms of being able
to negotiate some of the murky waters.

Speaker 2 (01:17:08):
So how does Leanie Wilson end up on this record?

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):
Because we become out of sheer her sheer kindness. We
went we played the CMTS last year and this is
even before Jay was on board, and uh, just out
of completely random placement, Camille and I went to do

(01:17:35):
the red carpet and you know, you get out of
the thing and there's Lani's right there and she's like
she entered. We were just she was just very nice,
and you know, she's like, I'm from a small town.
I grew up listening to the Black Crows. And we
got to just meet for a few uh seconds and
talk a little bit, and then you know, she went

(01:17:56):
down the line doing her press and just was like
said really nice things like, oh my god, I met
you know, Chris Robinson. Oh, and then we end up
with Jay and then we have this song and then
it just kind of comes together and Jay's like, I
think she Laney would be amazing on this, and we
were like, I mean, Lane's amazing on everything she's doing,

(01:18:20):
so's if she wants to do it, of course, let's
do it. And you know it's kind of really the
way things happen like that, it's very easy. I mean,
it's not like we're releasing a duet country single at
country rating, you know what I mean. It's way more
casual and way more organic than something like that. So
things just fall in your lap in the best way sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
Okay, you grew up with a father who's very into
the music, has classic blues records. What do you think
about today's country music?

Speaker 3 (01:18:50):
Well, I think, like anything else, it's not just one thing.
You know, it's not just one thing. And you know,
I think when you see Luke Combs and you see
Jelly Roll, you see Laney, you're seeing like this next generation.
It's kind of I mean, they still have like the
kind of brogue country stuff and this kind and this
other sort of things and the more established acts. You know,

(01:19:11):
country music really cycles through people in a different way.
But I mean, I you know, look at Luke Combs, man,
I mean, that guy has connected with people on such
a deep level. He's a beautiful singer. He's a very
sincere songwriter. And you know that speaks volumes, you know

(01:19:34):
what I mean. It's it's not a it's not just showbiz.
It's not a put on. There's not a lot of
To me, I might be wrong, it doesn't look like
there's a lot of fucking puppet masters behind them. You know,
pay no attention to the man behind the green curtain
pulling all the strings. I mean, he's just connected with
people in a global way with that music. And then
you see someone like Laney who's just ultimately very talented

(01:19:59):
and she draws people in and she's very you know
what I mean. So she has that and now she
goes from success to superstarto. And then you see people
like Jelly Roll, whose story is incredible, and then at
the end of the day, that kid has a beautiful voice.
That kid can really sing, you know. So I think
you're starting to see I mean, I think, you know,

(01:20:20):
Nashville is always going to be its own entity and
it's going to have its own way of doing things.
And but you have to also, you know, I also
appreciate that, uh there's people in those bands playing real drums,
playing a fucking bass, playing a fucking mandolin, playing a guitar,
you know. I mean you look at that and you

(01:20:41):
think that sounds like, like, what's the big deal about that?
Isn't that how it's always been. It's like not when
you see you know, the laptop nation, you know what
I mean. Like there's bands who can't do their show
if the laptop doesn't work. I mean, cool, but that's
not for me, man, you know what I mean. I'd
like to you know, I don't we That's the other thing.

(01:21:02):
It's not out of an arrogance or any thing about that.
It's just you know, rich and I. If all the
power went out or whatever, had a gig, we could
sit at the front of the stage with an acoustic
guitar and sing our songs and it would entertain people.
And I think it would you know, touch, So it
wouldn't be the same. Some people would be like, fuck you,

(01:21:22):
I want my money back, but some people would actually
really feel it, you know, I mean, and I think again,
that's what everyone's looking for, you know. So country music
is in good hands obviously, and they're doing big business.

Speaker 2 (01:21:36):
Okay, so you make this record, you make it on
your old dog, you make the record you want. The
record releases into a completely different landscape from nineteen ninety Okay,
prior to MTV, we had AM and FM. MTV closes
the model culture if you're a hit on MTV, everybody
in the world knows you. Okay, at the end of

(01:21:59):
the reign of MTV, hip hop becomes a big thing.
Prior to the Internet, there was a new sound every
three or four years. There's certainly not a new sound
that breaks big every three or four years now. So
you're putting out a record, they have something, and you
talk about a radio format, even though radio means less,
but it's a category. There's active rock. If you listen

(01:22:21):
to that music, a lot of it is Metallica derived,
fast noisy, etc. Straight ahead rock. You were almost the
sole outpost of that nineteen ninety so. Now it's twenty
twenty four and nobody is as big as they were

(01:22:41):
in the MTV era. Taylor Swift may be doing incredible gross,
but when you had those successful records off your first album,
everybody knew those records. Everybody whereas as big as Taylor
Swift does an only user because she's very successful, but
I can use a million other names Beyondy Morgan Wallen.
If you don't want to hear it, you don't have to.

(01:23:03):
So you're putting a record into the marketplace that is
the Black Crows business. Which isn't really exactly like anything else.
How does that feel?

Speaker 3 (01:23:14):
Well, I mean, I think it feels amazing because you know, again,
part of the machinery of the era of making those
kind of records wasn't just selling the records. It was
You're going to be in the studio for six months.
It's going to cost a million and a half dollars. The
guy's gonna rent drums. That's going to be another eight
thousand dollars you're gonna get, you know what I mean.

(01:23:34):
The whole system was built up in this grandiose money thing,
and so in one level, I think I don't feel
that I didn't you know, we didn't take a million
dollars to make this record, you know what I'm saying.
So we we within our inner workings, we're very aware of,
you know, this is what we can afford. And you

(01:23:56):
know what, it's lucky that where where we are, that
we write the songs we write, that we play the
way we play, and that we've done many we've made
many records and done many sessions in and out of
the Black Crows that we can utilize. I kind of
look at the music business in some ways as a
science fiction narrative, you know, like of some spaceship and

(01:24:17):
crashed on a desolate alien planet ten thousand years ago,
but the inhabitants of that planet can still get in
there and take some wires and like you know, a
knife or whatever, and they you know, the infrastructure is
still available for survival. I think that in our situation,

(01:24:40):
we're very lucky to be from the past where and
we've brought an audience and we're and you know, and
that audience changes, stays the same and changes. But you
know what, really all we've ever been able to have
control over is our presentation, which is the music and
the live and luckily we were always interested in going

(01:25:04):
out and playing live. That's where we are the Black
Crow since day one. That's where we've always I think
that's where we've always proved ourselves. And so I mean
to me, you know that the Black Crows in the
year twenty twenty four, like you said, it's the formats

(01:25:25):
have changed, the whole idea has changed. But we're on
charts and we're on weird things. We're on Radio Sydney.
They never played us. And when we were the biggest
band in the world in nineteen ninety two, right, they
didn't play us or things in England and Germany. I mean,
our records are like in charts that we've never been
in before. And I'm not saying like that means anything

(01:25:47):
other than wow. That means that this band, who plays
a pure guitar driven rock and roll sound and incorporates blues, funk, soul, country,
roots music influences, still can still create some interest. And
I know this. I know that even on Active Rocker

(01:26:08):
and with the band you're talking about, how different does
our record sound when the DJ puts it on the
station twice a day. I mean that wanting and waiting
is popping out of there like something a lot of
people and younger people have never heard before. So again,
something you know that puts us I think, in my
humble opinion, back in the we're in the spearhead of

(01:26:31):
what you know, and hopefully that I would like to
think again, maybe super egocentric, that our example could prove
to people that you don't have to make fucking producer
driven bullshit. You don't have to do it the way
some guy told you to. You know what I mean,
That's been my whole thing. No one we got into

(01:26:53):
a band because no one. I didn't like to be
told what to do. And then, you know what I mean,
It's like, so we could come up with this band,
and guess what if we're successful and we work hard
and people like it, no one can tell you what
to do with your art, you know what I mean.
And I think again it gets to like compliant, being
compliant or being defiant, And we've always been defiant in

(01:27:16):
the pursuit of whatever we want our art to look like,
smell like, feel like, move like. And I think what
you see today is you know, only compliance only What
can I do for more viewers? What can I do
for more lights? What can I do? You know what

(01:27:38):
I mean? And it's like so much music that we
liked was almost made. They demanded you as a certain
person in the marketplace, like you know what I'm making.
That's difficult for you. I like that, you know, you
know what I mean. It wasn't just about saccarin and
sweet hits and you know what I mean now, the
cutesy things and everything in the third person, and woe

(01:28:02):
is me? You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:28:10):
Okay, you know you work with Jimmy peach Page got
together with Robert Plea. They went on the road, and
as the tour evolved, they've played less and less new music.
The album comes out. You're on the road, you're gonna
play the new music no matter what, because you.

Speaker 3 (01:28:26):
Have a lot of hips.

Speaker 2 (01:28:27):
I mean a lot of people don't, but you do.

Speaker 3 (01:28:30):
I don't think we would. Yes, we're going on tour.
We're going to play a lot of songs on this record,
but we will incorporate that into of course, we have
to play the hits. Of course, we have to play
the songs that mean the most of people. Of Course,
we you know, I don't think I think when we
were younger, we would be more flipping about, well, you

(01:28:52):
know what you can hear she talks to angels next week.
We're not going to play it every night, But now
I also realize the reverence of that song not and
its popularity. But we have to play that. It's our
and I play it with I enjoy singing it every night.
I have to we have to play Hard to Handle,
we have to play Remedy, we have to play Jealous
again twice as our You know, there's just certain things

(01:29:15):
that uh that the audience expects, and you know, I
think we're we I think for the first time we
know with certainty that that's what we have to give them. Ah,
but we do have this new record, and you know what,
it just so happens that these new songs they can
live side by side with this, you know what I mean,

(01:29:35):
And we have occasion here and there for the deep
fan and for the person who's interested in the Black
Crows catalog to play something that maybe you didn't think
we were going to play. You know, I think within
our within what we're doing, we can hit a lot
of notes that way without really deviating from playing our

(01:29:55):
most beloved songs. You know, I think we can make
everyone happy. And you know, yeah, let's be honest. Once
this happened, as Bastard's tour over, I'm sure we'll go
back to a more hit related presentation, throwing in, like,
you know, the songs from this record that work the best.

(01:30:16):
But for right now, we've we've moved from the bigger
venues to theaters because we know we're gonna do something
a little bit different, a little looser than than the
greatest hits kind of vibes we've been doing the last
couple of years.

Speaker 2 (01:30:32):
Okay, as you say the ethos has completely changed. You
have a pure rock and roll ethos. What do you
think about sponsorship in privates?

Speaker 3 (01:30:44):
I mean, I mean, if you could book some far
as I would be appreciated. I mean, if you could
hook me up with I don't know, something like a.
I think the world has changed. My attitudes have changed
the you know, it's funny privates used to really I
used to feel some sort of like, oh, this is
like ripping out my integrity. And now, you know what,

(01:31:05):
I meet a lot of nice people. You know, we
play our heads. It's nice. People are nice and they
enjoy themselves, and I know we're different than the other
things they see. And you know, I'm not the only
you know. I'm like, we just put out wanting and waiting.
I'm like, it can't be wanting and waiting for the
new BMW, you know what I mean, Like, I'm not

(01:31:29):
opposed to it. And actually, I think the one funny
thing is because we were always so opposed to it
and we had made such a fucking stink about it
is I don't think anyone wants to deal with us.
You know, the corporate memory is much longer than the
average persons I think, you know, I wouldn't know, but no,
I mean again, and they these are all the you know,

(01:31:50):
without the the benefit of some of those things, then
we find ourselves in a place where we're not being
able to finance albums and tours and you know, keep
the business going. So there is a pragmatic reason to
do it. That's not just for our own wealth or whatever.
It's also to keep the show going. You gotta do

(01:32:12):
some things that we wouldn't have done when we were kids.
And by the way, if you're going to do them,
you have to do them with because you're happy to
do it, you know. And I think that's probably the
difference between where we were and like the even in
the first two thousand and five twenty ten era to today,

(01:32:35):
you know, I mean, we happily do the things that
we agree to.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
Okay, switching gears a little bit. You famously had a
long relationship with Kate Hoodson. Earlier in the podcast, you
say you're having all these hits. You go to the
local bar, there's people who are giving you shit. I
hate your music. I see you on.

Speaker 3 (01:32:54):
MTV, and I'm going to say that would happen like that?
That would be the negative to being famous, That's what
I meant. And did it happen that often?

Speaker 2 (01:33:03):
Well, I guess. You know, you're not the first musicians
involved with a movie star, and certainly rock stars. We
had Peter Wolf had fade done away obviously with what
goes on one in one, in the bedroom and in
your regular life is one thing. But being a musician
with a movie star or especially Kate Hudson's sort of
America Sweetheart? Did you feel that you got untoward abuse?

(01:33:29):
Was that a good experience? How was it being in
the bubble?

Speaker 3 (01:33:32):
I mean yeah, I mean well, I mean it was
a good experience until it wasn't, I tell you. And
the reality is, you know, we're still good friends and
we have a beautiful, beautiful son who is still like
you know, our lives are very separate, of course, but

(01:33:54):
you know, still the the only important thing really about
Kate and relationship twenty something years ago was our son,
you know what I mean, and that we can be
on the same page and that's really all that's important.

Speaker 6 (01:34:09):
But I think other than that, I think I've always
I've always found it fairly easy to maintain my own personality,
and I know, you know, maybe it changes, of course
with time, but I've pretty much always.

Speaker 3 (01:34:28):
Known who I am and what's going on. And I've
also never been afraid to follow my heart and to
see where that leads me. You know, it wasn't until this,
you know, until my wife today, that I've ever felt
I've actually made the right decision about that. But I

(01:34:51):
can't look you know, I only look back at I
am one of those people too that I don't look
back with anger. I don't look back with resentments and things.
I tend to just remember the you know, the best
stuff and the best and the best thing.

Speaker 1 (01:35:07):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:35:07):
And the only thing is that you know, he's not
a he's a young man now, he's not a kid anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
Okay, but that's a classic example where the issue of
acceptance comes up. You're a rock and roller of the
old school. Are you fine if everybody's pissed off at
you or if they don't accept you? Say this is
just who I am? Or is there a part of
you say, hey, I.

Speaker 3 (01:35:30):
Want to be loved. Well, I mean, I'm I think
I'm I think I'm very loved. But with the intimate
relationships around me, friendships and not just my you know,
my my wife and and things like that. But well,
I do I do have to say that, you know. Yes,

(01:35:51):
of course I want to be liked. Of course I
want to be appreciated. Uh. But then again, I also
under stand and not everyone's gonna, uh get my humor.
Not everyone's gonna you know, I'm not afraid to be me,
and I don't. And again it gets back to I'm

(01:36:12):
not going to pretend to be someone else to make
I mean, I'm talking about it in the general way,
not in like I don't want to make someone on,
you know, and whatever I mean, I I hardly uh,
I hardly think of myself. You know. I travel around,
I go anywhere I want. No one bothers me, no one,
you know, people who know the band know me, and

(01:36:33):
they're always lovely, you know what I mean. And I
always have time for them, and I always you know,
I meet people at airports, I meet people at hockey games.
I meet people at I met you know, we're at
clubs all the time in LA looking at young bands
and young artists and friends with these people and inspired
by what they're doing. And really it's beautiful to see.

(01:36:56):
But but but then there is a side of if
you know, you don't like the way I dress, you
don't like what I said. Yeah, you know that's kind
of still like, you know, I didn't get into rock
and roll because I was conforming to anything. I got
into rock and roll because I was a nonconformist. I
had problems with authority. I didn't like you know what

(01:37:18):
I mean. I'm a person who you know, is a
subject to dandyism and you know, I mean, I think
the difference also as being young, and we don't really
talk about is you know, I like millions of people.
I still I don't know if I would say I
suffer from depression, but I definitely have moments. But I'm

(01:37:42):
not completely I'm not doing drugs every day. I'm not
drinking every day. I'm not you know what I mean.
And that only compounded sort of the depression into being
lashing out and being more negative socially or in interviews,

(01:38:02):
or you know, not being patient or you know. But
those are things also like that I hope you leave
behind as you move into you know, a real adulthood,
you know, And I don't need to have those attitudes,
and I'm far more open and available for all sorts,

(01:38:24):
for all manner of things. That's something that would make
me really upset when I was twenty seven, I would
just you know, water off my back at this point,
you know. But but like I said, I do think that,
you know, there's still a little bit of rock and
roll that you'ld be like, yeah, well fuck you, you
know what I mean, Like, not in like a violent

(01:38:44):
way or weird way, but just like, oh really you
don't like that? Well, you know, And I know that
sounds like.

Speaker 2 (01:38:50):
I don't believe me, I know, but there are very
few people who still adhere to that, you know, poor
and therefore they saw you know, that's why Neil Young
can away draw a big audience and crawls. He's not
with us, but still's a Nash can't draw anywhere near
that audience because he stayed true to the vision. So
do you take medication for your depression?

Speaker 3 (01:39:13):
No? No, it's different now that I'm older, you know
what I mean. Now it's just and when it rears,
it's ugly had it's more just like a hazy melancholia
as opposed to something that might be on the verge
of debilitating, you know. But then again, that's part of
the weird thing. Of when you're young, you get up,

(01:39:34):
you're on fucking tour for ten years, and if you
if you don't feel good or you're you're having something
going on, no one gives a fuck. You get a gel,
get it, You did a gig, man, you know what
I mean? And I really appreciate now that younger people,
and I mean, I do think it's funny too. It's
like they cancel the tour because they're like depressed. I'm like, wow,

(01:39:55):
that must be nice. We were watching documentary about like shoegazs,
the history of shoegaze music. I think it was if
It's not the if it wasn't the guy from the
Cocktail Twins, it was the guy from My Bloody Valentine
or something. They were and they were like, yeah, things
were going so well, and then you know, then things weren't,

(01:40:19):
and then you got to keep going. And then you're
back in the studio and everyone's fighting and that guy's
in a spiral and I'm on drugs and whatever, and
he goes, Man, no one ever just said we should
take six months off. I was like six months. It
took six weeks. But you know what's funny, You hear
that story a lot from people, and I can identify
with that. Yeah, you know, if we just looked at

(01:40:41):
each other and said, let's take thank you, let's take
six months off and get clear our heads or whatever,
and you just never did back then.

Speaker 2 (01:40:50):
So how'd you meet your wife?

Speaker 3 (01:40:53):
Now we're coming full circle to the Grateful Dead. I
was in a yurt in Big Sur. We met in
a yurt, and sir.

Speaker 2 (01:41:01):
How were both of you in that yup?

Speaker 3 (01:41:04):
Because she had she's an artist and had made some
posters for my solo group, the CRB, And we played
in Big Sur every year. We had a little thing
that started just as us. And then before the end
of that band, I put on a little homegrown festival
every year called Freaks for the Festival and that was

(01:41:24):
but this was right before that, and there's we played
and she came and we were just friends at that time,
but we danced all night and that kind of was
the dance started. And we're still dancing.

Speaker 2 (01:41:45):
So when you met her, were you single?

Speaker 3 (01:41:50):
When we met we were friends and I was not,
And yeah, I wasn't single at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:41:57):
Did you get divorced because you met Camille?

Speaker 3 (01:42:03):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:42:06):
Okay, you talked about George Clinton backstage as a fan.
Tell me two shows that you've seen that were like the.

Speaker 3 (01:42:14):
Best shows you've ever seen. Wow, well, I'll tell you this.
I saw Depeche Mode about a month ago at the Farm.
That's one of the best shows I've ever seen. Incredible,
just incredible. I mean, Dave Gahan, incredible front man, hit

(01:42:38):
after hit of like these amazing songs. I was truly
blown away. Let me think what and then maybe maybe
one of the other best things that I got to
see the late Great Least Scratch Perry at Wetlands in
New York at the like around ninety eight, maybe twenty

(01:43:00):
seven ninety eight, And that was three hours of we
went from the depths of the invocation of the human
being in Africa to our ascent into outer space in
three hours. It was life changing and life It just

(01:43:28):
was like I never I just couldn't believe it. I've
never saw anything like it. And I will say I'll
throw this into I know you said too, But I
saw Camille and I saw Bob Dylan at the London Palladium.
Not this last October, but you know, October twenty twenty two,
I might have seen Bob more than any other like artist.

(01:43:49):
You know, I probably first saw him in like, you know,
not in them, of course, but like nineteen ninety or
ninety one or something. But was sublime. I mean, it
was so good and I was And it's funny because
I was lucky enough to have dinner. We had dinner

(01:44:11):
with Jimmy Page the next night, and he had been
to the show the night before I saw him, and
all he wanted to talk about was Bob Show, you know.
So it was fantastic because it was you know, I
look at someone who's been you know, who who truly
has done it all, you know, and the the spell

(01:44:36):
that he evoked at that concert was mesmerizing and and
I just couldn't believe it. I like floated out of there,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:44:46):
So it doesn't bother you that the songs are rearranged.

Speaker 3 (01:44:49):
Not at all. Bob Dylan's not He's not the you know,
he's not that kind of performer. You know, he's the
world's greatest living songwriter. So I don't you know, I
don't think that, and I think for many years now,

(01:45:10):
you know, you're not going to see Bob and he's
going to sound like he did in nineteen sixty six
or nineteen seventy six or nineteen eighty six or nineteen
ninety six, they would be very different presentation. I think
once you relinquish yourself to Bob's vision or what he
wants to say, then you can really get something out

(01:45:32):
of it if you go and you have expectations that
or other than whatever that artist, that particular artist too. Hey,
who wields the power and who wields the talk about
someone who doesn't give a far. He doesn't give a far.
That's what he's going to do. That's the way he
wants to do it, and that's you know again, that's

(01:45:52):
just one of the reasons why he remains one of
my heroes and one of the great inspirations, not just
as a singer, songwriter, lyricist, but.

Speaker 2 (01:46:02):
Just as an artist. Have you met him, Yeah, Yeah,
I met him. I met him at So did you
find him to be open with you? Because he could
famously be non responsive.

Speaker 3 (01:46:13):
I was terrified when I first met him because of
the things I've heard, and over the years, the few
times that I've got to talk to him for a
little bit, he's He's always been very open, always very cool,
always a handshake. He always says. You know, the first
time I met him, he goes, hey, Chris, I'm Bob,

(01:46:34):
and I was like, oh shit, I am Chris. Always
been very cool and we've been lucky to like run
into each other, you know, go to gigs. But I've
run into him and all sorts of weird situations that
I never would have thought as a kid running into

(01:46:55):
Bob Dylan, and you know, it just it makes me
laugh too, that one of the great I was friends
with David Crosby for since nineteen ninety one or whatever,
and I'm very sad when he left. And I know
a lot of people have opinions about the cross, but
I'm a Bird's fanatic. Crosby, Steals and Nash, if I
can only remember my name is one of the most
beautiful records. And I was lucky enough to sing on

(01:47:18):
a live record that he released in the mid nineties
called It's All Coming Back to Me Now, and I
got to sing with it. I sang with him a
few times throughout my career. But Crosby, Seals, Nash and
Young were playing when they toured last maybe it was
ninety nine and they played at Madison Square Garden, and

(01:47:38):
I've also been very lucky in my life to meet
the Great Jim Keltner, who is another one of my
musical heroes. And the rhythm section was another one of
my heroes again, the late Great Duck Dune Donald Duck Dunn,
and I got to be friends with Duck, and that

(01:47:58):
was also another very special relationships to me. But I
took a friend. We all go down to Madison Square
Garden and I, you know, I have my lamb and
it's my tickets, and we go backstage and I was
just I've never gone anywhere expecting anyone to say hello,
to meet anyone, any of that. You know, I don't
have those expectations. But I did know I was going

(01:48:19):
to go say hey to Duck because I'm Duck. We
were friends. Uh. Duck's son, Jeff was the Black Cros's
front of house for like the first eight years of
our career, so that's how I know him. So as
I'm walking backstage, it's like before the show, every you know,
I see Cross and he's like, yeah, Chris, how are you?

(01:48:41):
And he gives me a hug, and Stills is like, hey, Chris,
I'm Steven. We've never met before, you know, but I
hear you're the rocker. I'm the rock and roll dude.
You're the right, you know. I had met Neil before,
and Neil was very friend. Hey, Chris, how's it going, man?
I was like hey, And then Graham Nash. I had
met with David once, and I'm like, if you had
told my thirteen years you know what I mean. I

(01:49:05):
was like that it was it was surreal. And the
music that they've made together, the music they made on
their own, that every one of them my name came
out of their mouths, was like like such a just
such a head trip, you know what I mean. And

(01:49:26):
I really was one of those nights. I was like,
I'll always remember this, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:49:33):
So were you a led Zeppelin fam How did you
end up working with Jimmy p.

Speaker 3 (01:49:37):
Of course we love led Zeppelin. We work with Jimmy
because I think maybe that's hard to remember which time,
but Robert Plant brought Jimmy down when we played the
Royal Albert Hall in the nineties late nineties, and because

(01:50:01):
we had, you know, known Robert for a minute, and
Jimmy was like he really liked the show. And then
you know, in the dressing room. He really I back
then was I always had like a couple hundred CDs
and cases and hysteria and we're always playing music. And
he I think he was, you know, like impressed and
with my CD collection and with the stuff we talked about.

(01:50:24):
And we went out and we were playing at the
Zeneth in Paris the next like in the you know,
a couple of days later, and our dear friend, the
photographer Ross Halfin, was like, Jimmy wants to come around.
We're coming to the show. And I was like, I'll

(01:50:45):
hook up everything, well, hit the you know, hit the
town afterwards. He goes, if you ask him, maybe he'll
get up. And so he was there and I said,
you want to play? You know, we played. We played
like woke up this morning, you know, the BB King song,
and there's some blues that we had in the set.
Might even been like a Champion Jack two press. I

(01:51:06):
don't know what. I don't actually remember, but he was
like yeah yeah. And then I said, all right, well
maybe we'll do shake your money Maker too, olmar James
say yeah, yeah, whatever you want to be great. So
I'm like ladies and gentlemen, you know, Jimmy Page, and
we're in the Zenith in Paris and people are fucking
losing their minds and we went out and had a

(01:51:26):
great night together. And then the next thing that happens
with us is there's a benefit in London and we're
on tour with Aerosmith and doing stadiums and stuff in
ninety nine, and it comes up there's like, well, they
would like to get Jimmy and you guys are gonna

(01:51:47):
you guys are in town, maybe you guys can collaborate
with Jimmy on something. And we were like, I mean, yeah, fuck,
of course, that's really where it comes from. So we
rehearsed a little bit and we did a couple of
things out the gate, and then it was just kind
of like poking around after that. And then there we

(01:52:07):
were in a rehearsal space in New York before roseland
with Jimmy Page for eight days, learning the led Zeppelin
catalog and teaching him she talks to angels and shit,
and again we just got on. Jimmy's a wonderful guy
and you know, taught me many valuable lessons. So that's

(01:52:27):
a guy that Jimmy Page is the legend dairy person
that he is because is he talented most definitely, does
he have a vision for that talent? Most definitely, that
he also works very hard. I never rehearsed that heart
in my life. I never. I didn't even know that
was possible, you know what I mean. We were from

(01:52:48):
the rolling Stone school of yeah, we'll do it when
we get up there, you know. And Jimmy a lot
of things happened up there that had nothing to do
with the rehearsal either, but that he really I was like, Wow,
he's the most maybe one of the most famous, you know,
arguably the greatest rock guitarist of all time. And he

(01:53:08):
takes it seriously and works hard. And that is always
always been a part of something that I took from
Jimmy as well.

Speaker 2 (01:53:18):
So were you the last man standing, the last exponent
of rock and roll? Or is there a hope for
rock going on?

Speaker 3 (01:53:26):
There's yeah, there's totally hope, man, there's totally hope. It
might not be exactly what we thought it would be
or remember it as, but there's lots of kids with
there's always kid with a guitar who wants to make
a noise, you know what I mean. There's always you know,
a bunch of kids who like are kind of have
that little punk attitude and they want to like everyone's

(01:53:47):
going up the street, They're going to go down the street,
you know what I mean. There's always going to be
a troublemaker. There's always going to be the outsider, you know.
You know, last I was in Hollywood seeing this kid,
Billy Tibbles that I produced his last two records and
put them out on Silver Arrow. And he's like young kid,

(01:54:11):
he moved to LA when he was eleven from England
and he writes great. I mean we we kind of
consider him. What did we say? He's garage glam hunk
show tunes kind of you know. And and the guy
these band the Uni Boys that play here in LA.
And I'm working with this really special artist named Dagger Polyester.

(01:54:31):
And and although these young people are coming, you know,
there's power pop and punk and glam and this and
that and avant garde music, and like all of a sudden,
someone's mentioning Terry Riley and then there's like you know,
the Walker Brothers or whatever. But there's there's a real
there's a you know, ay you always will see you know,

(01:54:53):
when we were in Nashville. I went out and saw
cool bands. You know where I lived to go see bands.

Speaker 5 (01:54:58):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:55:00):
You know, we just saw the Charlatan's UK and Ride
at the Wiltern. Next week I'm going to see Tye
Sigall and White Fence and you know what I mean.
So there's always sells, Queens of the Stone Age recently,
you know, amazing concert So from the littlest, from the smallest,
little fucking stinky dump to the big thing, there's still

(01:55:21):
music happening in guitar music, different ages, different different worlds sometimes,
but it's alive and it's well, you know I said
a million times, if you go to go to a
MEBA right now, you're gonna fucking stand in line with
your stack of shit to pay for it, you know
what I mean. Because people are buying records, Vinyl records,

(01:55:42):
old ones, new ones, reissues, you know what I mean.
There's someone still you know that, you know there's a
kid who still goes out and buys a poster lou
Reid and puts it on his wall, and that's important.

Speaker 2 (01:55:58):
Wow, we could go on for ever, Chris, but we've
covered so much. I'm gonna let you go. This will
be fascinating for my audience. Thank you so much for
spending time with me. Thank you, I'm much appreciated. Thanks
for the conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:56:13):
I thank you. I'm gonna get off of this and
start making borshed. So you didn't know that about.

Speaker 2 (01:56:23):
My grandfather used to eat borshed and therefore I could
never eat borshed again. I ate it like eight five yeah, no.

Speaker 3 (01:56:31):
No, five year old except in Siberia likes beets. You
know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:56:35):
Oh yeah, yeah, okay, Chris, until next time. This is
Bob left sets