In this episode, Karol is joined by Jordan Schachtel who discusses his move to Florida and his work as the publisher of The Dossier on Substack. They also talk about their views on lockdowns and vaccines during the COVID-19 pandemic. Jordan shares his perspective on the detachment between elected representatives and the average American, as well as the issue of the national debt and money printing. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show. On iHeartRadio.
Last episode, I talked about taking advice from people who
don't know what they're talking about. The example that I
used was this perpetually single young woman on the Internet
who offers advice about relationships to men. She has no
(00:29):
idea about anything, not even the basics, and I don't
recommend listening to her. I was thinking about this as
Greta Thunberg hit the news again. Greta, of course, is
the Swedish girl who quit school to travel around the
world and lecture us about climate change, and now she's
(00:50):
on to the latest cause, the Warren Gaza, and she's
wearing a cafea and protesting a Jewish singer performing at
the Eurovision Company Titian in Malmo. Greta had this childlike
understanding of the environment. She had these insane demands like
end oil, you know, which would have caused hardship and
(01:13):
poverty and pain for people all over the world, and
yet she was taken seriously. And now she's on to
anti Israel demonstrations, which I'm also sure she knows nothing about.
She was turned into a child activist by adults and
now she's this empty adult going through the motions, tagging
(01:37):
on to whatever demonstration will have her. And part of it,
I think is that we're drawn to atypical advice givers.
Here's this little girl from Sweden telling us we need
to end oil, or here's this single woman on the
internet giving advice to men. This isn't a political show,
but it's important to be able to ignore ignorant voice
(02:00):
is like Greta's, and societally we really failed to do that.
I've mentioned on my Twitter, et cetera that for a
long time, and I actually mentioned this in my book
Stolen Youth as well. My son in first grade in
school in Brooklyn when we lived there, had months where
I would ask him what are you learning in school?
(02:21):
And he'd come back and say Greta. And so societally
we failed to ignore her. We have failed to ignore
this ignorant voice. And I think that the personal changes
that we talk about on this show, like not listening
to people who don't know anything, can translate to society
being better about this kind of thing too. If in
(02:45):
our own lives we know to dismiss people giving bad advice,
maybe that can trickle down to our culture recognizing a
Greta when they next see her. Coming up next, an
interview with Jordan Shaftel. Join us after the break.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today is Jordan Shackdal. Jordan is publisher of the
Dossier on Substack. Hi, Jordan, so nice to have you.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Hey, Carol, It's good to be here. Appreciate you having
me on.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So, Jordan's also part of our Florida crew.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
And you also moved here from where did you move
here from? DC?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (03:26):
I was in d C for far too long. I
went to graduate school there. I grew up in Jersey
across from New York City and ended up in DC
for graduate school. Stayed for a while. You know, I
had a pretty decent time until the COVID era and
then all hell broke loose and I just couldn't take
(03:46):
it anymore. And you know, had a good network of
friends and family down in Florida. So I was just
you know, I think it was like somewhere around mid
twenty twenty where I was just like I'm out of here,
like I've just got enough.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I don't think I I knew you got here mid
twenty twenty. That makes you one of the earlier people.
I mean, I think only John Cardillo beats you.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Yeah, and David Reboy. Both of them were pre COVID.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
John is like the unofficial ambassador from Florida to the
United States, and Reboy is the Miami local who's been
here for a while.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah, he's the mayor.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I definitely credit Reboy with some level of making me
consider Florida.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
I mean, obviously there were larger.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Things at play, but he, you know, he definitely played
a role being the mayor of Miami and telling me
how great my social life was going to be when
I got here. And you know, he wasn't wrong. But
I had John on here a few weeks ago and
we talked about how he came here for like sleepy Florida,
and I don't feel like that's what we got at all,
(04:55):
do you think that?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (04:57):
You know, like I kind of like the mix that
we have in Florida. I grew up coming down here
because you know, a lot of my family with snowbirds
and those in the Northeast.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Can you understand that snowbirds to Florida weird?
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Yeah, there's a whole. There should be many books written
about it. But basically, you know, you you spend the
winter months in Florida or at least have a place
or rent a place for the holidays. But yeah, so
I spend a lot of time in Florida growing up,
and you're right, it was like old sleepy Florida, which
I wasn't particularly fond of, but you know, now in
(05:34):
my mid thirties as as an old sleepy person, No,
but it was interesting because, like, you know, you you
come to appreciate more of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
But also Florida is.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
So much more lively now than it used to be.
You know, even the architecture, the neighborhoods. It's just a
whole different ballgame down here, and you know, I so
much appreciate that that it's not, you know, just the
reputation that it used to have, just as like basically
Heaven's uh, you know, waiting room is definitely you know,
(06:08):
there's still that element. But I think Florida is so
you know, diverse, the demographics now in a good way,
and it's.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Like such a happening place.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I feel like everything is happening here and like people
are constantly coming here.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
I mean, I guess they always were.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Florida was always a vacation destination, but now there's so
many events and like political stuff and like a lot
of our world plays out here. I think more than ever,
I I don't feel like I have to leave here
to get the full experience.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Yeah. Absolutely, Like, you know, I think about my time
in d C, and you know, we had a lot
of good times with fellow right leaning people down there,
but are up there? And I say down there because
I'm from New Jersey, so but it's you know, I
think back at like get togethers and whatnot. Basically everyone
(07:02):
has left, so you know, there's probably no cool get
togethers in DC anyway anymore, or if that applies, could
there be?
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, gone, Yeah, I've never lived in DC, I mean briefly,
like during an internship, But yeah, how could there possibly
be when everybody's in Florida exactly? So you published the
Dot and you have a wide, wide following. What kind
of stuff do you cover in your subject?
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yeah? So we basically cover everything.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
And the only rule, you know, it's it's coming from
a right of center conservative slash libertarian slash you know,
freedom oriented whatever you want to call it perspective. But
you know, the only thing that I think that our
audience looks for consistently is the analysis or journalism needs
to be independent. I'm trying to get away far as
far away from possible as possible from like the aggregation,
(07:58):
the clickbait that you know, you see a story somewhere
and you just kind of repeat it in your own
words elsewhere. I did that when I was in you know,
other parts of the right of center media.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Working under you know, a big.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
Company, not corporate media, but you know, kind of like
anti establishment media, and I found that kind of boring,
so I definitely didn't want to bring that work into
my own publication. So I think that's what we try
to do, is you know, we we try to give
our audience a unique set of facts and circumstances on
every story, or a unique perspective, and try to engage
(08:37):
with it from you know, our open bias.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
So I feel like I started reading you early COVID,
and you were one of the early voices, i mean
against lockdowns and you know, later on against vaccines, but
the lockdown stuff specifically, how did you know, like what
made you think like this is the wrong path and
we can be doing this.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Because I have to admit.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I mean I was like, I'm in April twenty twenty,
we shouldn't lock down anymore, which you know is considered early,
but you were before that. So what made you kind
of see the light earlier than everybody else?
Speaker 5 (09:15):
Yeah, I've kind of always had this like anti authority
streak from from not from like an antifa perspective, but
from a right wing perspective. So you know, super early on,
I remember because you know, I read the news every
day and like that's what like a lot of people
are our industry do, Like we're just reading all day
on the internet all day. I was going to social
events with non political people and like in very early
(09:39):
twenty twenty, like January February, and I was like wow,
Like I was the one that was freaked out in
the beginning because I was like, wow, I can't believe
this is going on, Like don't these people know that
all these scientists are saying these awful things? And then it,
you know, the way the waves started coming to the US,
and you know, the more and more reading I did,
the more and more I realized that like none of
(09:59):
this was based in any evidentiary standard, and that what
happened basically was that there was this consensus formed I
think among the academics and you know, science class in
which it kind of like frowze so many people into
this state of like dysfunction and being afraid to say
something because like, I think a lot of people were
(10:21):
thinking what I was thinking, but they just weren't willing
to put themselves out there because of the repercussions, because
of the group think, you know, very similar to any
type of like you know, I cover foreign policy too
a lot, and like how the right got caught so
off guard with like a war like Iraq, or you know,
finally agreeing that we needed to leave Afghanistan eventually. So
(10:44):
like that stuff is just hard. When there's so much
consensus among people who are your peers, you never really want.
That's I think what one of the lessons of the
COVID hysteria era is that, you know, it's very difficult
to show to really truly be an end of kind
of thinker and to be outspoken about issues like that.
I think it's just it showed that human nature is
(11:06):
kind of just like get along with the crowd, and
that really came to harm us during the COVID era.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
It's interesting because I you know, I admit I was
for the Iraq War, and that was an extremely popular position.
But looking back at it, I think like the people
that were arguing against it were making such terrible arguments,
Like there were so few. I remember the libertarians were
making like good anti war you know, arguments, but on
(11:33):
the left in general, it was like Irish is just
doing this because he wants their oil or he's trying
to avenge his daddy.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Like it was not very.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Serious, and it seemed like the pro war side. I
mean I was, I was young, I was in my
early twenties. I mean, I don't I don't feel particularly
responsible for the opinians I had at the time.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
But but I remember reading all about.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
It and it was like the pro war side was
like just more serious, And I think that's really what
lured me into thinking that it was a good idea,
because the anti war side was just ridiculous.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
Yeah, no, I agree, like that the neo conservatives were
true intellectuals. I thought that that just you know, their
policy ideas were were atrocious, but you know, they were
very well educated and they had you know, basically taken
over the Republican Party.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I mean I was, I think I was.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
The first time I voted, I was eighteen, freshman year
of college. I voted for John McCain. Right, So we all,
we all make mistakes, but you're right, like, what's the alternative?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
It was Barack Obama?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Right, So it's like sometimes, no, that's an easy I
feel like that's an easier choice.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Yeah, But it's just you know, sometimes like we're just
faced with two competing groups that don't want to facilitate
our interests, and I think, like that's you know, that's
the that's the reality of our system right now. But
like I would still prefer that system to like, you know,
we see what's going on in Israel with the canesset
or in Europe with these you know, the parliamentary system
(12:59):
where you have thousand different parties and then you know
you really can't get anything done. So you know, there's
positives and negatives.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Right, Yeah, So what would you be doing if it
weren't this, If you weren't a writer?
Speaker 4 (13:10):
What would be Plan B for Jordan?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (13:13):
I don't know, Like I wanted to have a real
job my whole life, and then when I was in
grad school, you know, I just started like I.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Wanted to have a real job.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
So when I was in graduate school for international affairs,
I wanted to be basically like a deep state fed.
And I think I was too maybe open in that
interview process and they didn't want to move my applications forward,
which ended up being a blessing. But you know, and
(13:46):
then before that, you know, growing up, I just wanted
to be you know, pro baseball player, pro basketball player,
pro ball you know, makes some I don't work out. Yeah,
like probably, I'm sure that's what your kids are looking
at right now, but it's yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Know, like I kind of just fell into this.
Speaker 5 (14:02):
I was in grad school and one of my professors
was like, hey, that paper was kind of interesting. You
want to submit that, And I submitted it, I think
to like Breitbart or something, and then I started working
at Breitbart, and then you know, from there, it's been
it's been like twelve years in this space now, so
I know for a lot of people that's not too long,
but you know, it just became more and more interesting,
(14:22):
and I think, you know, the best way to become
a better writer is just to write more and read
more too, So as I became yeah, as my skills improved,
I think that like more people became interested in my work,
so you know, kind of had this effect of encouraging
me to continue pressing on.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
But never would I have imagined.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
You know, in my first twenty years of life, that
I would be doing this right now. You know, I'm
not a particularly extroverted person, so being like in the
media space is kind of weird. For it's still kind
of weird, but I very much enjoy it now were
you're doing great.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I think.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
I think this interview is going really well. So you
have the substack where you support yourself on it, and
you have you know, your your own publication, and that's
really dazzling to me. I mean, you know, you and
I have had conversations and you've encouraged me to start
a substack, and I'm like, I'm just too old for this.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
I don't understand how it works, but.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
You're doing it, and I think that's really impressive. Do
you feel like you've made it, like you get to do.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Whatever you want.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
I think that it's great to have that kind of flexibility.
I don't like phrasing it as if I've made it because,
like you, I'm sure you encounter these people all the
time who have internalized this idea that they've made it,
and you're having a conversation with them, and you just
feel like it's a one way conversation from them to
(15:45):
you because they've decided that there's nothing more that they
can learn. So that's why I would never say that
I've made it. But I think, like you know, kind
of growing older and maturing, you start to kind of
shift priorities from material possessions and goods to like, what
is making it really mean? I think it would means, like,
(16:07):
from my perspective, maybe having a big family and a
cool legacy and to be remembered for doing something positive.
And I think that would mean that I've made it.
But I think like it like an Andrew Taate, like figure,
I think that guy probably goes to sleep and he's
absolutely miserable every night, although he probably is worth a
billion dollars and might be the most influential thirty something
(16:29):
on the planet. So, you know, making it it's you know,
there's a wide variety of answers, but I think, like
definitely making it to me would mean being like super
content with how you're living your life, how you lived
your life and the legacy that you left.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Absolutely, I mean I asked that question of all my guests,
and I've gotten a real range of answers, and you have,
you know, multimillionaires who say that they haven't made it
and people who make, you know, much more modest livings
than saying that they have. And so I think it's
it's really you know, obviously it's objective, but I love
to hear what people.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Think made it means. And so that's, you know, why
why I keep that question in the roster. So one
other question that I ask all of my guests, and.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I feel like you probably are well poised to answer
this because you write about this kind of stuff all
the time. But what would you say is our largest
cultural issue, like or societal issue in America?
Speaker 5 (17:27):
Yeah, you know, I remember seeing this question, and I don't, like,
I think that I am not qualified to give.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Qualified But I know this show isn't political. However, It's okay.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
It could be it could be something.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I mean, you know, it fears into politics. I've had
lots of guests who automatically just go go political because
you know that that's what feels comfortable and it's it's okay,
we accept it.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
I think that there's an incredible detachment between the elected
representatives and you know, the average American person. And while
there's many people who claim to have the perfect system
to resolve that issue, particularly like the fiscal status of
(18:21):
the United States, you know, I've very much, i guess,
evolved on this issue. Like I come from a very
free market perspective and coming and similarly over the COVID years,
I came to realize.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
That you know, there's there there's very much like.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
A uniparty system in the United States, because you know,
there were there were very there's always been arguments from
the right that the GOP is kind of like this
party of big business, and the and the Democrat parties
just like the insane party. And it's kind of true
because like you know, if you look at income over
time and like purchasing power of the dollar, like everybody's
(19:03):
getting screwed at the expense of the very powerful interests
in Washington, d c. And on Wall Street, and the
capital just flows to people who are closest to the
money printer today. And that's an issue that I think
about a lot is like, how do we resolve that
(19:23):
through you know, free market principles, because like I feel like,
for a very long time under like you know, the Bush, McCain,
Romney era of Republicanism and even some Trump stuff, Trump
printed trillions of dollars too, like, and that did not
do anything to resolve the issues of the income disparity
in the United States. And I think it's a very
real thing. And I think people are right, no matter
(19:46):
what their ideology is, that this is a very troubling
issue in the United States that people are saddled with
so much debt today. Like I think about like my
future children, God willing, like how going to be able
to make sure that they have no debt because once
the debt, you're basically begging the government, you know, you
(20:08):
see with Biden right now, you're begging the government to
bail out people who were saddled with student loans for
many years prior. And there's really no way today. Like
I know that the boomers and whatnot say that, oh,
you know, I was washing cars pay through college. Well
now college costs go to good school, and you don't
you know, you don't have a you know, some type
(20:30):
of wealth or scholarship. You know, you might be paying
eighty thousand dollars a year to go to a top
tier school. So it's like, how are you going to
how are you going to get out of that debt hole?
It's very difficult. So it's something that's always on my mind.
It's like, how are we going to deal with this
crisis of people being like if you're not working at
(20:54):
a top pedge fund or private equity firm out of
college like you have, and you don't have any support,
Like this is very much an uphill battle that so
many American states, right.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I mean, I think that there's a lot of answers
to this, but like, for one thing, I think people
need to start either not going to college. And I
know this is like an unpopular thing to say, but
I'm not necessarily encouraging my kids to go to college.
Like I think that they will because it's the path
that everybody around them is taking.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
But I'm not saying to them like.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
You know, how you must or this is what you
have to do if they want to pursue something else,
I'm going to be completely open to it. But also
the idea of state schools and community colleges like, we
just don't. Everybody goes to these insanely expensive private Not everybody,
but a lot of people go to these insanely expensive
private schools, and I do amass this insane debt.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Debt I called graduate school the most expensive mistake I've
ever made. That was the first time in my life
I had.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Debt, and it was crippling and it was really scary,
and it was unnecessary. I wish somebody had been there
to be like this, you know, you want to go
into politics, you don't.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Need a graduate degree.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
This is like not at all necessary graduate degree?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
You don't I already have one.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
I already had one. I already had an undergraduate degree.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
And then I was working as a paralegal and I
decided to switch fields, and I felt like I needed
to go get.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
The graduate degree in order to switch fields.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
And what I learned is a nobody has ever asked
to see the graduate degree or my grades or any
of that. And I'm not sure I learned anything. I mean,
I had some interesting teachers. I know, some like famous teachers.
Dick Morris is one of my teachers. But it's ultimately
I was so in the world already and I was
(22:40):
so immersed in it that I didn't need to go
to graduate school.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
But what I wanted to say about the money printing,
I like to say, you know, real capitalism has never
been tried.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
But how do we fix that? How do we fix
that flow?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I think that you really it's a very interesting point,
and it is political point, but it is also a
cultural point that people are suffering and they're in debt,
and this money printing situation that we've gotten ourselves into
is so harmful. Like what what would Jordan Shaft tell
them to do to fix this?
Speaker 5 (23:19):
Yeah, you know, I think the solution is a multi
generational approach. Obviously, you know, I'm very public about the
fact that I'm a big bitcoiner, but other than bitcoin,
will keep that aside because it's a very niche issue.
You know, from very early on, people are indoctrinated in
public schools and through college to accept premises that are
(23:40):
that are ridiculous, and it creates a system in which
the government, you know, Congress specifically and the FED are
empowered to basically do whatever they want. And we've created
this entire system in which, like you have all the
top minds on Wall Street just you know, tuning into
every FED press conference and then Congress, you know, every
(24:04):
time there's a crisis, Prince trillions of dollars. And I
think that there's not a lot of pushback because there's
not a lot of people aren't really tuned into having
solid economic principles, and until that changes, Congress is going
to continue to get away with it. But if tens
(24:26):
of millions of people understood that the people in Congress
are basically robbing you and your family's future blind to
pay for the priorities of the thousands of lobbyists who
spend billions of dollars in DC to get, you know,
whatever they want out of these legislatures, I think that,
(24:47):
you know, at least through the democratic process, you could
hold these people accountable. But there just doesn't seem to
be enough of a wealth of knowledge right now about
how much we're being screwed on this issue. Really, you know,
the simplest thing to do is just to run the
numbers and show people, like, you know, I've pretty much
written off the idea that I'm going to be able
(25:08):
to be collecting any type of you know, government welfare
or social security checks in thirty years, so I think,
you know, it's just something needs to be done. Unfortunately,
I don't think that it's going to be done, you know,
anytime soon. So that's why, you know, I became a
big bitcointerer. It's like, you know, try to find a
(25:29):
system that's detached from the money printer because I think
like we're kind of just in this uh, you know,
monetary death spiral that's just contributing to the likes of
you know, Blackrock and JP Morgan while harming everyone else.
So I still hold out hope that enough people can
(25:50):
be fired up to make change, but if not, that's
what I kind of view as the escape hatch to
all the madness, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
And Culture has this point where she says that the
national debt is to Republicans as climate change is to Democrats,
Like we keep saying it's the scary thing when nothing
ever happens. And I think that's the concern. People don't
understand the connection. They don't understand that, like how much
money is printed and all of that, that it affects
them every day.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
I'm not sure how to solve that.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
So answer the culture question, I think like the best
example of what we were talking about is like, can.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
You pay your way through college today? Can you do
what your grandparents said? Can you? Can you work?
Speaker 5 (26:29):
Can you wait tables and wash cars to pay for
your tuition? The answer is obviously not, So what happened
in between?
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Yeah, that's exactly. I think that's what Republicans are.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
You know, maybe not Republicans because they're just as culpable
in this, but that's what people who care.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
About this should be saying.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I guess is the all right, We've solved it. I
think we did so good. So for my last question, Jordan,
I like to end with if you could offer a
life tip to my listeners.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
I was looking at that question earlier and I was like, man,
I got to put my Jordan.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Peterson hat on.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
But you know, it's kind of similar themes to the
question of having made it. What I find is that,
you know, I'm always trying to work on keeping an
open mind and listening to people, because although I thought
I used to have an open mind and listen to people,
I wasn't really listening to people. I was kind of
just set in my ways. But in terms of Like
(27:29):
you know, I think physical and mental fitness are very
much connected. But you know, I'll leave the guru stuff
to Jordan Peterson because, like you know, I don't really
have I don't want to fall into the trap like
I much rather would learn from people than to offer advice.
(27:49):
And I think maybe I'm capable of giving some advice,
but it's it's a difficult question for me because, like
you know, everyone has their own set of circumstances.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
But I think that.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
Just to continue learning, like you know, the best thing
that I think I'm doing is that I'm really trying
to focus on continuing to learn and continuing to keep
an open mind and hopefully.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Keeps a great tip.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
I mean, you know, I feel like you undersold yourself.
Buck Sexton was like read before bed. I mean, it
doesn't have to be, you know, Jordan Peterson esk. But
I think continue learning is a great tip. Thank you
so much for coming on, Jordan.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
No, thanks so much, Carol appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show. On iHeartRadio.
Last episode, I talked about taking advice from people who
don't know what they're talking about. The example that I
used was this perpetually single young woman on the Internet
who offers advice about relationships to men. She has no
(00:29):
idea about anything, not even the basics, and I don't
recommend listening to her. I was thinking about this as
Greta Thunberg hit the news again. Greta, of course, is
the Swedish girl who quit school to travel around the
world and lecture us about climate change, and now she's
(00:50):
on to the latest cause, the Warren Gaza, and she's
wearing a cafea and protesting a Jewish singer performing at
the Eurovision Company Titian in Malmo. Greta had this childlike
understanding of the environment. She had these insane demands like
end oil, you know, which would have caused hardship and
(01:13):
poverty and pain for people all over the world, and
yet she was taken seriously. And now she's on to
anti Israel demonstrations, which I'm also sure she knows nothing about.
She was turned into a child activist by adults and
now she's this empty adult going through the motions, tagging
(01:37):
on to whatever demonstration will have her. And part of it,
I think is that we're drawn to atypical advice givers.
Here's this little girl from Sweden telling us we need
to end oil, or here's this single woman on the
internet giving advice to men. This isn't a political show,
but it's important to be able to ignore ignorant voice
(02:00):
is like Greta's, and societally we really failed to do that.
I've mentioned on my Twitter, et cetera that for a
long time, and I actually mentioned this in my book
Stolen Youth as well. My son in first grade in
school in Brooklyn when we lived there, had months where
I would ask him what are you learning in school?
(02:21):
And he'd come back and say Greta. And so societally
we failed to ignore her. We have failed to ignore
this ignorant voice. And I think that the personal changes
that we talk about on this show, like not listening
to people who don't know anything, can translate to society
being better about this kind of thing too. If in
(02:45):
our own lives we know to dismiss people giving bad advice,
maybe that can trickle down to our culture recognizing a
Greta when they next see her. Coming up next, an
interview with Jordan Shaftel. Join us after the break.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
guest today is Jordan Shackdal. Jordan is publisher of the
Dossier on Substack. Hi, Jordan, so nice to have you.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Hey, Carol, It's good to be here. Appreciate you having
me on.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So, Jordan's also part of our Florida crew.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
And you also moved here from where did you move
here from? DC?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (03:26):
I was in d C for far too long. I
went to graduate school there. I grew up in Jersey
across from New York City and ended up in DC
for graduate school. Stayed for a while. You know, I
had a pretty decent time until the COVID era and
then all hell broke loose and I just couldn't take
(03:46):
it anymore. And you know, had a good network of
friends and family down in Florida. So I was just
you know, I think it was like somewhere around mid
twenty twenty where I was just like I'm out of here,
like I've just got enough.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I don't think I I knew you got here mid
twenty twenty. That makes you one of the earlier people.
I mean, I think only John Cardillo beats you.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Yeah, and David Reboy. Both of them were pre COVID.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
John is like the unofficial ambassador from Florida to the
United States, and Reboy is the Miami local who's been
here for a while.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah, he's the mayor.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I definitely credit Reboy with some level of making me
consider Florida.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
I mean, obviously there were larger.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Things at play, but he, you know, he definitely played
a role being the mayor of Miami and telling me
how great my social life was going to be when
I got here. And you know, he wasn't wrong. But
I had John on here a few weeks ago and
we talked about how he came here for like sleepy Florida,
and I don't feel like that's what we got at all,
(04:55):
do you think that?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (04:57):
You know, like I kind of like the mix that
we have in Florida. I grew up coming down here
because you know, a lot of my family with snowbirds
and those in the Northeast.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Can you understand that snowbirds to Florida weird?
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Yeah, there's a whole. There should be many books written
about it. But basically, you know, you you spend the
winter months in Florida or at least have a place
or rent a place for the holidays. But yeah, so
I spend a lot of time in Florida growing up,
and you're right, it was like old sleepy Florida, which
I wasn't particularly fond of, but you know, now in
(05:34):
my mid thirties as as an old sleepy person, No,
but it was interesting because, like, you know, you you
come to appreciate more of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
But also Florida is.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
So much more lively now than it used to be.
You know, even the architecture, the neighborhoods. It's just a
whole different ballgame down here, and you know, I so
much appreciate that that it's not, you know, just the
reputation that it used to have, just as like basically
Heaven's uh, you know, waiting room is definitely you know,
(06:08):
there's still that element. But I think Florida is so
you know, diverse, the demographics now in a good way,
and it's.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Like such a happening place.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I feel like everything is happening here and like people
are constantly coming here.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
I mean, I guess they always were.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Florida was always a vacation destination, but now there's so
many events and like political stuff and like a lot
of our world plays out here. I think more than ever,
I I don't feel like I have to leave here
to get the full experience.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Yeah. Absolutely, Like, you know, I think about my time
in d C, and you know, we had a lot
of good times with fellow right leaning people down there,
but are up there? And I say down there because
I'm from New Jersey, so but it's you know, I
think back at like get togethers and whatnot. Basically everyone
(07:02):
has left, so you know, there's probably no cool get
togethers in DC anyway anymore, or if that applies, could
there be?
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, gone, Yeah, I've never lived in DC, I mean briefly,
like during an internship, But yeah, how could there possibly
be when everybody's in Florida exactly? So you published the
Dot and you have a wide, wide following. What kind
of stuff do you cover in your subject?
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yeah? So we basically cover everything.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
And the only rule, you know, it's it's coming from
a right of center conservative slash libertarian slash you know,
freedom oriented whatever you want to call it perspective. But
you know, the only thing that I think that our
audience looks for consistently is the analysis or journalism needs
to be independent. I'm trying to get away far as
far away from possible as possible from like the aggregation,
(07:58):
the clickbait that you know, you see a story somewhere
and you just kind of repeat it in your own
words elsewhere. I did that when I was in you know,
other parts of the right of center media.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Working under you know, a big.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
Company, not corporate media, but you know, kind of like
anti establishment media, and I found that kind of boring,
so I definitely didn't want to bring that work into
my own publication. So I think that's what we try
to do, is you know, we we try to give
our audience a unique set of facts and circumstances on
every story, or a unique perspective, and try to engage
(08:37):
with it from you know, our open bias.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
So I feel like I started reading you early COVID,
and you were one of the early voices, i mean
against lockdowns and you know, later on against vaccines, but
the lockdown stuff specifically, how did you know, like what
made you think like this is the wrong path and
we can be doing this.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Because I have to admit.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I mean I was like, I'm in April twenty twenty,
we shouldn't lock down anymore, which you know is considered early,
but you were before that. So what made you kind
of see the light earlier than everybody else?
Speaker 5 (09:15):
Yeah, I've kind of always had this like anti authority
streak from from not from like an antifa perspective, but
from a right wing perspective. So you know, super early on,
I remember because you know, I read the news every
day and like that's what like a lot of people
are our industry do, Like we're just reading all day
on the internet all day. I was going to social
events with non political people and like in very early
(09:39):
twenty twenty, like January February, and I was like wow,
Like I was the one that was freaked out in
the beginning because I was like, wow, I can't believe
this is going on, Like don't these people know that
all these scientists are saying these awful things? And then it,
you know, the way the waves started coming to the US,
and you know, the more and more reading I did,
the more and more I realized that like none of
(09:59):
this was based in any evidentiary standard, and that what
happened basically was that there was this consensus formed I
think among the academics and you know, science class in
which it kind of like frowze so many people into
this state of like dysfunction and being afraid to say
something because like, I think a lot of people were
(10:21):
thinking what I was thinking, but they just weren't willing
to put themselves out there because of the repercussions, because
of the group think, you know, very similar to any
type of like you know, I cover foreign policy too
a lot, and like how the right got caught so
off guard with like a war like Iraq, or you know,
finally agreeing that we needed to leave Afghanistan eventually. So
(10:44):
like that stuff is just hard. When there's so much
consensus among people who are your peers, you never really want.
That's I think what one of the lessons of the
COVID hysteria era is that, you know, it's very difficult
to show to really truly be an end of kind
of thinker and to be outspoken about issues like that.
I think it's just it showed that human nature is
(11:06):
kind of just like get along with the crowd, and
that really came to harm us during the COVID era.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
It's interesting because I you know, I admit I was
for the Iraq War, and that was an extremely popular position.
But looking back at it, I think like the people
that were arguing against it were making such terrible arguments,
Like there were so few. I remember the libertarians were
making like good anti war you know, arguments, but on
(11:33):
the left in general, it was like Irish is just
doing this because he wants their oil or he's trying
to avenge his daddy.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Like it was not very.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Serious, and it seemed like the pro war side. I
mean I was, I was young, I was in my
early twenties. I mean, I don't I don't feel particularly
responsible for the opinians I had at the time.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
But but I remember reading all about.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
It and it was like the pro war side was
like just more serious, And I think that's really what
lured me into thinking that it was a good idea,
because the anti war side was just ridiculous.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
Yeah, no, I agree, like that the neo conservatives were
true intellectuals. I thought that that just you know, their
policy ideas were were atrocious, but you know, they were
very well educated and they had you know, basically taken
over the Republican Party.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I mean I was, I think I was.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
The first time I voted, I was eighteen, freshman year
of college. I voted for John McCain. Right, So we all,
we all make mistakes, but you're right, like, what's the alternative?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
It was Barack Obama?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Right, So it's like sometimes, no, that's an easy I
feel like that's an easier choice.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Yeah, But it's just you know, sometimes like we're just
faced with two competing groups that don't want to facilitate
our interests, and I think, like that's you know, that's
the that's the reality of our system right now. But
like I would still prefer that system to like, you know,
we see what's going on in Israel with the canesset
or in Europe with these you know, the parliamentary system
(12:59):
where you have thousand different parties and then you know
you really can't get anything done. So you know, there's
positives and negatives.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Right, Yeah, So what would you be doing if it
weren't this, If you weren't a writer?
Speaker 4 (13:10):
What would be Plan B for Jordan?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (13:13):
I don't know, Like I wanted to have a real
job my whole life, and then when I was in
grad school, you know, I just started like I.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Wanted to have a real job.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
So when I was in graduate school for international affairs,
I wanted to be basically like a deep state fed.
And I think I was too maybe open in that
interview process and they didn't want to move my applications forward,
which ended up being a blessing. But you know, and
(13:46):
then before that, you know, growing up, I just wanted
to be you know, pro baseball player, pro basketball player,
pro ball you know, makes some I don't work out. Yeah,
like probably, I'm sure that's what your kids are looking
at right now, but it's yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Know, like I kind of just fell into this.
Speaker 5 (14:02):
I was in grad school and one of my professors
was like, hey, that paper was kind of interesting. You
want to submit that, And I submitted it, I think
to like Breitbart or something, and then I started working
at Breitbart, and then you know, from there, it's been
it's been like twelve years in this space now, so
I know for a lot of people that's not too long,
but you know, it just became more and more interesting,
(14:22):
and I think, you know, the best way to become
a better writer is just to write more and read
more too, So as I became yeah, as my skills improved,
I think that like more people became interested in my work,
so you know, kind of had this effect of encouraging
me to continue pressing on.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
But never would I have imagined.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
You know, in my first twenty years of life, that
I would be doing this right now. You know, I'm
not a particularly extroverted person, so being like in the
media space is kind of weird. For it's still kind
of weird, but I very much enjoy it now were
you're doing great.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I think.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
I think this interview is going really well. So you
have the substack where you support yourself on it, and
you have you know, your your own publication, and that's
really dazzling to me. I mean, you know, you and
I have had conversations and you've encouraged me to start
a substack, and I'm like, I'm just too old for this.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
I don't understand how it works, but.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
You're doing it, and I think that's really impressive. Do
you feel like you've made it, like you get to do.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Whatever you want.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
I think that it's great to have that kind of flexibility.
I don't like phrasing it as if I've made it because,
like you, I'm sure you encounter these people all the
time who have internalized this idea that they've made it,
and you're having a conversation with them, and you just
feel like it's a one way conversation from them to
(15:45):
you because they've decided that there's nothing more that they
can learn. So that's why I would never say that
I've made it. But I think, like you know, kind
of growing older and maturing, you start to kind of
shift priorities from material possessions and goods to like, what
is making it really mean? I think it would means, like,
(16:07):
from my perspective, maybe having a big family and a
cool legacy and to be remembered for doing something positive.
And I think that would mean that I've made it.
But I think like it like an Andrew Taate, like figure,
I think that guy probably goes to sleep and he's
absolutely miserable every night, although he probably is worth a
billion dollars and might be the most influential thirty something
(16:29):
on the planet. So, you know, making it it's you know,
there's a wide variety of answers, but I think, like
definitely making it to me would mean being like super
content with how you're living your life, how you lived
your life and the legacy that you left.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Absolutely, I mean I asked that question of all my guests,
and I've gotten a real range of answers, and you have,
you know, multimillionaires who say that they haven't made it
and people who make, you know, much more modest livings
than saying that they have. And so I think it's
it's really you know, obviously it's objective, but I love
to hear what people.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Think made it means. And so that's, you know, why
why I keep that question in the roster. So one
other question that I ask all of my guests, and.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I feel like you probably are well poised to answer
this because you write about this kind of stuff all
the time. But what would you say is our largest
cultural issue, like or societal issue in America?
Speaker 5 (17:27):
Yeah, you know, I remember seeing this question, and I don't, like,
I think that I am not qualified to give.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Qualified But I know this show isn't political. However, It's okay.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
It could be it could be something.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I mean, you know, it fears into politics. I've had
lots of guests who automatically just go go political because
you know that that's what feels comfortable and it's it's okay,
we accept it.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
I think that there's an incredible detachment between the elected
representatives and you know, the average American person. And while
there's many people who claim to have the perfect system
to resolve that issue, particularly like the fiscal status of
(18:21):
the United States, you know, I've very much, i guess,
evolved on this issue. Like I come from a very
free market perspective and coming and similarly over the COVID years,
I came to realize.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
That you know, there's there there's very much like.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
A uniparty system in the United States, because you know,
there were there were very there's always been arguments from
the right that the GOP is kind of like this
party of big business, and the and the Democrat parties
just like the insane party. And it's kind of true
because like you know, if you look at income over
time and like purchasing power of the dollar, like everybody's
(19:03):
getting screwed at the expense of the very powerful interests
in Washington, d c. And on Wall Street, and the
capital just flows to people who are closest to the
money printer today. And that's an issue that I think
about a lot is like, how do we resolve that
(19:23):
through you know, free market principles, because like I feel like,
for a very long time under like you know, the Bush, McCain,
Romney era of Republicanism and even some Trump stuff, Trump
printed trillions of dollars too, like, and that did not
do anything to resolve the issues of the income disparity
in the United States. And I think it's a very
real thing. And I think people are right, no matter
(19:46):
what their ideology is, that this is a very troubling
issue in the United States that people are saddled with
so much debt today. Like I think about like my
future children, God willing, like how going to be able
to make sure that they have no debt because once
the debt, you're basically begging the government, you know, you
(20:08):
see with Biden right now, you're begging the government to
bail out people who were saddled with student loans for
many years prior. And there's really no way today. Like
I know that the boomers and whatnot say that, oh,
you know, I was washing cars pay through college. Well
now college costs go to good school, and you don't
you know, you don't have a you know, some type
(20:30):
of wealth or scholarship. You know, you might be paying
eighty thousand dollars a year to go to a top
tier school. So it's like, how are you going to
how are you going to get out of that debt hole?
It's very difficult. So it's something that's always on my mind.
It's like, how are we going to deal with this
crisis of people being like if you're not working at
(20:54):
a top pedge fund or private equity firm out of
college like you have, and you don't have any support,
Like this is very much an uphill battle that so
many American states, right.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I mean, I think that there's a lot of answers
to this, but like, for one thing, I think people
need to start either not going to college. And I
know this is like an unpopular thing to say, but
I'm not necessarily encouraging my kids to go to college.
Like I think that they will because it's the path
that everybody around them is taking.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
But I'm not saying to them like.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
You know, how you must or this is what you
have to do if they want to pursue something else,
I'm going to be completely open to it. But also
the idea of state schools and community colleges like, we
just don't. Everybody goes to these insanely expensive private Not everybody,
but a lot of people go to these insanely expensive
private schools, and I do amass this insane debt.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Debt I called graduate school the most expensive mistake I've
ever made. That was the first time in my life
I had.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Debt, and it was crippling and it was really scary,
and it was unnecessary. I wish somebody had been there
to be like this, you know, you want to go
into politics, you don't.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Need a graduate degree.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
This is like not at all necessary graduate degree?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
You don't I already have one.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
I already had one. I already had an undergraduate degree.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
And then I was working as a paralegal and I
decided to switch fields, and I felt like I needed
to go get.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
The graduate degree in order to switch fields.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
And what I learned is a nobody has ever asked
to see the graduate degree or my grades or any
of that. And I'm not sure I learned anything. I mean,
I had some interesting teachers. I know, some like famous teachers.
Dick Morris is one of my teachers. But it's ultimately
I was so in the world already and I was
(22:40):
so immersed in it that I didn't need to go
to graduate school.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
But what I wanted to say about the money printing,
I like to say, you know, real capitalism has never
been tried.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
But how do we fix that? How do we fix
that flow?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I think that you really it's a very interesting point,
and it is political point, but it is also a
cultural point that people are suffering and they're in debt,
and this money printing situation that we've gotten ourselves into
is so harmful. Like what what would Jordan Shaft tell
them to do to fix this?
Speaker 5 (23:19):
Yeah, you know, I think the solution is a multi
generational approach. Obviously, you know, I'm very public about the
fact that I'm a big bitcoiner, but other than bitcoin,
will keep that aside because it's a very niche issue.
You know, from very early on, people are indoctrinated in
public schools and through college to accept premises that are
(23:40):
that are ridiculous, and it creates a system in which
the government, you know, Congress specifically and the FED are
empowered to basically do whatever they want. And we've created
this entire system in which, like you have all the
top minds on Wall Street just you know, tuning into
every FED press conference and then Congress, you know, every
(24:04):
time there's a crisis, Prince trillions of dollars. And I
think that there's not a lot of pushback because there's
not a lot of people aren't really tuned into having
solid economic principles, and until that changes, Congress is going
to continue to get away with it. But if tens
(24:26):
of millions of people understood that the people in Congress
are basically robbing you and your family's future blind to
pay for the priorities of the thousands of lobbyists who
spend billions of dollars in DC to get, you know,
whatever they want out of these legislatures, I think that,
(24:47):
you know, at least through the democratic process, you could
hold these people accountable. But there just doesn't seem to
be enough of a wealth of knowledge right now about
how much we're being screwed on this issue. Really, you know,
the simplest thing to do is just to run the
numbers and show people, like, you know, I've pretty much
written off the idea that I'm going to be able
(25:08):
to be collecting any type of you know, government welfare
or social security checks in thirty years, so I think,
you know, it's just something needs to be done. Unfortunately,
I don't think that it's going to be done, you know,
anytime soon. So that's why, you know, I became a
big bitcointerer. It's like, you know, try to find a
(25:29):
system that's detached from the money printer because I think
like we're kind of just in this uh, you know,
monetary death spiral that's just contributing to the likes of
you know, Blackrock and JP Morgan while harming everyone else.
So I still hold out hope that enough people can
(25:50):
be fired up to make change, but if not, that's
what I kind of view as the escape hatch to
all the madness, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
And Culture has this point where she says that the
national debt is to Republicans as climate change is to Democrats,
Like we keep saying it's the scary thing when nothing
ever happens. And I think that's the concern. People don't
understand the connection. They don't understand that, like how much
money is printed and all of that, that it affects
them every day.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
I'm not sure how to solve that.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
So answer the culture question, I think like the best
example of what we were talking about is like, can.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
You pay your way through college today? Can you do
what your grandparents said? Can you? Can you work?
Speaker 5 (26:29):
Can you wait tables and wash cars to pay for
your tuition? The answer is obviously not, So what happened
in between?
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Yeah, that's exactly. I think that's what Republicans are.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
You know, maybe not Republicans because they're just as culpable
in this, but that's what people who care.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
About this should be saying.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I guess is the all right, We've solved it. I
think we did so good. So for my last question, Jordan,
I like to end with if you could offer a
life tip to my listeners.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
I was looking at that question earlier and I was like, man,
I got to put my Jordan.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Peterson hat on.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
But you know, it's kind of similar themes to the
question of having made it. What I find is that,
you know, I'm always trying to work on keeping an
open mind and listening to people, because although I thought
I used to have an open mind and listen to people,
I wasn't really listening to people. I was kind of
just set in my ways. But in terms of Like
(27:29):
you know, I think physical and mental fitness are very
much connected. But you know, I'll leave the guru stuff
to Jordan Peterson because, like you know, I don't really
have I don't want to fall into the trap like
I much rather would learn from people than to offer advice.
(27:49):
And I think maybe I'm capable of giving some advice,
but it's it's a difficult question for me because, like
you know, everyone has their own set of circumstances.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
But I think that.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
Just to continue learning, like you know, the best thing
that I think I'm doing is that I'm really trying
to focus on continuing to learn and continuing to keep
an open mind and hopefully.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Keeps a great tip.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
I mean, you know, I feel like you undersold yourself.
Buck Sexton was like read before bed. I mean, it
doesn't have to be, you know, Jordan Peterson esk. But
I think continue learning is a great tip. Thank you
so much for coming on, Jordan.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
No, thanks so much, Carol appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
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