December 8, 2022 • 40 mins
Gabrielle Blair’s original website Design Mom was named a Time Magazine website of the year. She is the founder of the design conference Alt Summit and author of the New York Times bestselling book, Design Mom. Her newest book is Ejaculate Responsibly: A Whole New Way to Think About Abortion.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to What's
Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a show
about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and personal journeys. Together,
we'll hear from Gold medalists, best selling authors, and leaders
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(00:30):
Gabrielle Blair's original website, Design Mom, was named a Time
Magazine Website of the Year. She is the founder of
the design conference Alt Summit and author of the New
York Times best selling book Design Mom. Her newest book
is Ejaculate Responsibly, a whole new way to think about abortion. So, Gabby,
(00:51):
let's dig in a little bit to your story. You
call yourself an accidental thought leader. How did this journey begin? Well,
I mean I went to school for graphic design. I
certainly didn't think of myself as a writer or or
any kind of thought leader that way. Um I did
think of myself as a problem solver. For me, design
was always problem solving, and um so that has ended
(01:14):
up affecting how I approach any of these current event topics.
But um, basically I started the blog and I called
a design mom, and I said the subtitle was the
intersection of design and parenting, and or maybe it was
design and motherhood. And I quickly realized I could write
about anything at that intersection. Like it really allowed me
(01:36):
to kind of do whatever I wanted, which was so
great for me, because I didn want to write about everything.
I wanted to write about parenting, I wanted to write
about design. I wanted to write about you know, the
elections or whatever is happening, my religion, like I wanted
to write about all of it, and um, it allowed
me too, So that was great. If there was something
that felt very out of reach, I could always just
add a question at the end. It was like, how
(01:57):
would you talk about this with your children? You know?
And that's like now it's parenting now, now it's at
the intersection. And as blogging changed, remember two thousands six
is pre pinterest, pre Instagram, pre any of that, and
a blog post at that time really was on a
design blog was as simple as like, look at this cube,
(02:18):
you know, diaper bag I found in a link like
that that was a blog post, and you'd do like
three or four a day, or you'd be like, here's
something cool I found. I mean, it was less work
even than an Instagram post, you know, it was just
so simple, and that's kind of what a blog was.
But then blocks changed. We got all these other visual
outlets and now we're like writing essays and they were
always essay blogs, but design blogs weren't that, and so
(02:40):
my posts got longer and longer form as I stuck
with this, and eventually I'm like, oh, I'm I'm like
writing a lot. And I still wasn't calling myself a writer.
In fact, maybe in the last year I've called myself
a writer a few times, but still in my head
was like, well, not a writer, I'm a designer. So
that's where when I talked about being an accident thought leader.
(03:00):
I didn't set out to do this, but the design mom,
I mean, for at least a decade, had a very big,
steady audience. I could talk about anything. The comments section
was amazing, just like the smartest woman in the world,
all discussing stuff, having different points of view, but never
attacking each other. It would always just be someone saying,
(03:22):
well this has been my experience, and like sharing their story,
and then someone else might share a totally different story,
but it was never like you or you know, it
was just the most friendly place. It was. It was amazing.
And so people reading or watching are being exposed to
so many different points of view from so many different
people and so many different you know, from different walks
of life, and in this you know, non threatening way,
(03:46):
and it just was really really wonderful. And so then
I started, of course getting requests on like hey, can
you discuss X topic? Can you discuss this? Because they
wanted this discussion, this safe discussion place, and so I would.
I would right about whatever was happening in the world.
And as my kids were getting older too, we were
discussing that stuff at the dinner table anyway, Like they're
(04:08):
the stuff that some of you want to child your
kids from. They're not being shielded from. They're seeing it
on TikTok or they're seeing on Twitter or wherever they are, Like,
they're seeing the same headlines that I'm seeing, and so
let's talk about it, you know, and and um, so
whatever we were talking about the dinner table, I knew
the blog audience would want to talk about two. And
I could translate a post there at what point did
the blog turn into a business That was like almost immediate,
(04:31):
but the business has changed over the years. But what
happened was a few months in I put on this
software called track c. This is before Google Analytics, and
this is like a little analytics program that showed you
how many people are coming to your blog. I was
getting three or four comments on a post. So I
was like, I was delighted. It was wonderful, but I
knew every single person right that was writing. So I
(04:53):
put tracks the on and it's blowing my mind. It's
like people have come to your blog today or and
I was like, what who are these people? Like one
of the world, Like it was just like shocking to me.
Of course, those numbers are so tiny now compared to
how big a group. But at the time, I was like,
there's four comments and I know them. Who are these
ninety nine? Like what is this? I blew my mind?
(05:16):
And I was so curious, and I was like I
want them to say hello, like I want him to
say hello. So I invented the blog giveaway. Like I
don't know if you guys know that I did the
first blog emory comment to it. Yeah, So I so
I was like, what could get them to do this?
I knew it was a learned thing. Remember, people hadn't
done caption yet, Like to leave a comment was like
(05:37):
a learned skill, like where do you go? What do
you do? You know? Like it felt scary, So I'm like,
I need to give them some motivation. So my husband
had a high school friend who had just started a
shop and this cue little online shop, and I said, hey,
would you send a prize to a winner? She's like, yeah,
I'll send these earrings. I'm like, great, super And so
I say, hey, if you leave a comment, you're entered
(05:59):
to win. We're gonna randomly pick someone. And and then
Darley was gonna send you these earrings. And Darley Bird's
the shop. And I got like seventy comments, and my
phone is ringing off the hook because all the people that,
like people I knew in real life are called me, going,
who are these people who is reading your blood? How
(06:20):
did they find it? Because in their minds, it's like
they're reading it and they're like neighbors reading it and
like my sisters reading it, because that's who they're seeing
comments from. So the commenters kind of knew each other
in real life too, and then all of a sudden
that change. Here's like all these people and it was
really really fun. Immediately afterwards, I probably received thirty emails
from other bloggers saying can I copy and paste it?
(06:42):
Like can I can I do the same people? I'm
like yeah, I'm sure whatever and like. So that is
when I was like, oh, this is a business. When
I realized like, oh, there's people here, something's happening here. Okay,
how do I do this? And so then I started
selling little ads on my side, and then eventually I
got signed with Federated Media, which is defunct now but
(07:03):
made a lot of careers. That's when I signed with them.
That was two thousand and ten, so that was already
a lot of years. That's when I was getting a
full time income from blogging. But until then I was
just like scrambling, scrambling, scrambling. I started All Summit that year.
It's like I was like using my blogging connections to
get speakers for All Summit. Like once I saw that
track see data of like there's like a hundred people here,
(07:25):
I was like, Oh, something's going on. And of course
I just kept growing and growing. When you first started
All summit, What was the idea behind all summit? And
how do you just start a conference? How do you
make it happen? For a couple of years, I'd gone
to blog her and that was like the conference at
the time. I really loved it, had so much fun.
Went to Chicago, but every class I went to was
(07:46):
about writing. It was like writers, which is great, and
a lot of mom you know, it's like the mom
blog era, so a lot of mom writers, which you know,
I'm I'm my blog called design Mom, so I'm fitting
right in, except that I'm more than reading these mom blogs.
I was reading design blogs. I was reading design Sponge
and oh Joy and Apartment Therapy. And none of them
(08:07):
had kids yet, you know, and they certainly weren't doing
sort of parenting kind of blogs. And none of them
were at these conferences, and we weren't talking about any
of the topics that affected design bloggers. And I have
a sister, Jordan Ferny, who had started a design block.
She also didn't have kids yet. I had a sister
in law list down they who started saying yes, who
(08:28):
also didn't have kids yet, and so they're part of
the design blog world. And we were all on this trip,
and I was just telling them, like, I love going
to these converces. It's so fun. Um, it's so fun
because you're, like, you know, you work so isolated as
a as a blogger and now a content creator whatever
we're calling ourselves these days, and it's so fun to
just go like talk shop in person with like people
(08:49):
that get it right. Like, I love these conferences. And
I was saying, but I wish like the design bloggers
were that. That's who I want to meet. That's why
I want to hear from. I want to learn what
they're what they're doing. So then my sister Sarah, who
not a blogger, but who has done a lot of
events stuff. She's her husband's a politician at the time,
and she had stayed political science as well and had
(09:10):
done just like a lot of political events, and she
was like, well, let's do a design blog conference. I'll
do the organization part and like, you know, all the
bloggers and you can get them all there, And so
she did all the event organization. We held it in
Salt Lake City, which is where she was connected to,
and we called it Altitude Design Summit because it was
in the mountains. And then it got short into all
(09:32):
summit very quickly. And then the first panel, the opening
panel was Maxwell from Apartment Therapy, Great Spawnie from Design
Spawn Design Sponge had their Armstrong of Deuce who was
both mommy blogger but also this photographer designer, and then
um Gene of of Not Caught, which maybe you don't
know as well, but as it was a big, big
deal at the time anyway, so this is the opening
(09:54):
panel of the conference, and it was like, oh, this
is real, this is like, these are the top names,
like and this answers saw it. We're like, oh, this
is a thing, Like this is I mean, this is
the thing. Right. So that first year though, I mean sponsors,
like who did we have. I don't don't even remember,
Like it was local friends or whatever. It was just
like trying to pull this together. But like you had
this this opening panel that you could point to that
(10:17):
We're like, these are the big names, and it was
like oh the next year it was so much easier
to sell tickets, so much easier to get sponsorships, etcetera.
But basically, if you have an event plunting background or
some experience there, that's what you need to you know,
talk to a hotel. Talk to Ben, use that kind
of stuff. Make sure you know how much food do
you need to have? You know, all that kind of stuff.
And then for the content that was my area, like
(10:38):
what are we talking about, what are the panels about,
what's happening there? So I mean, yes, go start a conference.
I have to tell you another story of the first
the first all semmate. One of the attendees, his name
has been named Ben Silverman. He was just an attendee.
He had just signed up, heard about it and signed up,
and he was walking around trying to get people to
look at his his little website he created. It's a
(11:00):
little beta version to kind of check it out, and
everyone's you know, super friendly, and we're all checking it out.
And one of the people he really connected with was
Victoria Smith, who's sp girl by the Bay big big
design blogger, and they ended up like flying back to
the Bay Area at the same time. And the little
site that Ben was showing your own was Pinterest. And
the next year he came and he's the panelist this time.
(11:24):
By then, like the design world had found Pinterest and
was like, this is amazing, It's exactly what we needed.
This is just like so perfect, we can bookmark all
our visuals. And the next year, the third year, he
came and he's the keynote like Pinters had just like
take it off in a huge way and one of
his quotes that we've used because we love so much
as he says, all sum it is the the soil
(11:47):
that Pinterest grew out of. And it is like he
came and he found exactly who he needed to find.
He found all the coolest design bloggers who were like
so visual and cool and could just pin the most
amazing content and it really grew Pinterest a wonderful way.
And now a quick break. So your new book is
called Ejaculate Responsibly. And it started out as a Twitter thread.
(12:13):
Did you really think out the thread or did you
write it as you went or like how did it unfold?
Because this Twitter dread for people who don't know millions
and millions interactions over a course of years, Like I
don't think there's been a day where that thread isn't
still making magic on Twitter still. I was just on
(12:34):
Twitter today. It's still doing stuff on Twitter today. Yeah.
It's been so with September and we're in November, so
it's uh, yeah, four years plus now it's it's been active.
So I wrote out my thoughts or sort of an
essay form of that, maybe six months before the actual thread.
(12:55):
I'd never written a Twitter thread before, and it's different.
You have to like break it up into these very
specific lengths, and so I did rewrite it kind of
for Twitter that day that I published it. But I mean,
Twitter is funny, like I've been on it longer than
any other social media. I think I got on in
two thousand and eight, but then I didn't use it
for years, or like would barely use it. If I
(13:17):
had like a sponsored post, i'd put it on Twitter
or something like that, but I wasn't really actively using it.
And then during two thousand fifteen, when a lot of
us were paying attention to it because of the election
and a lot was happening on Twitter, I got back
on and really just started observing. I wasn't creating content.
I was just observing and I'm doing a lot of retweeting,
(13:38):
which I still is probably the main thing I do.
And I realized it was like a whole different world
than the Twitter I used to know, and there was
a different culture there now, and I really loved it.
I was super into it, so I decided to try
this as a thread. But threads are supposed to be
pretty short. I mean, like if you need to write
an essay, go like write a blog post or something.
(13:58):
And this thread that I wrote, my very first one,
is sixty three tweets, which is just so bad form.
It's just like not I mean, you guys, know you're
on Twitter, like at it makes you like tweet it
and then you can add more, but like is sort
of like the natural limit, and here it was sixty three.
So that's just super obnoxious. I mean, I have an
(14:19):
ego for sure, And I was very nervous that not
that I was gonna get yelled at because I've been
yelled at online before, but that I was going to
be ashamed because I was like putting myself out there
with sixty three tweets, and like what if no one
even looked at it? Like what if it's just like
got no reaction. That I was like super worried about.
(14:40):
So I was like mentally trying to add up, like
how fast can ideally sixty three tweets one at a
time and get rid of this threat if I need
to pretend it never happened. You said, you've written out
your thoughts about abortion six months before. I don't remember
exactly what it was, but I had looked up abortion statistics.
It's like how many abortions are happening each year? So
(15:02):
I must have read an article, maybe seeing something on
Twitter that drove me to do that, so I was
looking it up. I mean, maybe I was just arguing
with someone I don't know, and I remember seeing the
number and it was higher than I thought. It was like,
I don't know what number was in my head. It's
not like there was one, but I was like, oh,
that's that's more abortions than I would have guessed if
I had just like guess. And so then I started
(15:24):
trying to problem solve that, like, well, why is that
never so high? Because of course I'm thinking, you know,
there's birth control options out there, and it's not like,
I mean, I know, women don't even like to go
get paps mars. We have to sort of like psychologically
prepare for any kind of gyneological visit. We're not just
like casually heading out over to get an abortion, like
that's not a thing. So then I was like, so,
(15:45):
what's happening there, and then it was just like this click.
I was like, oh, I know why people wouldn't necessarily
be on birth control because I have used every form
of birth control and they have worked. I got to
choose when I had my babies, which is amazing, and
that's exactly what we want for people. But I did
not like the side effects. I did not enjoy that.
That's why I've tried every kind like trying to troubleshoot,
(16:06):
trying to find something, and beyond the side effects, I
found the maintenance so challenging as I had all these
little kids. So you know, you've just had a baby.
You need to get birth control. You got to go
back to the doctor and get disappointment, have another exam,
then again stand in line for prescription or maybe eventually
I got I could get it mailed, you know, but
(16:28):
you had to set that up, and then by the
time you get it, it still doesn't It doesn't even
take effect. I'm thinking of the pill doesn't even take
effect for about a week. And if you forget or
you mess up, you feel terrified, like, oh crap, what
did I do? You know? How do I correct this?
You're like online trying to figure out if it's okay,
or if it's like a shot, which I've also done,
You're having to go back every few months to get
(16:50):
a new shot, and like remember when that is and
are you getting child care for that? Are you taking
out for work for that? You know, like are you
having to make any other arrangements. It's just was I
found it really really ch challenging, and I was I
was in a place where I had insurance, right, like,
I have the basics covered. It's not like I was
even in Ah. I mean there there are times would
would be even harder than when I had it, and
(17:10):
I still found it really challenging. So for me, that's
where I started going, oh, it's really hard. We make
birth control so hard for women. And then of course
my mind went to, will you know women aren't the
only ones here, men? Men are also involved in this equation,
you know what's happening there, And that's when I started
thinking about condoms and vasectomies, but specifically condoms, and that
(17:34):
they're kind of the opposite of women's birth control, meaning
they're easily accessible, no doctor's appointment required, they're super affordable,
you can usually get them free. In fact, every state
has a free condom program, you don't need to take
them if when you're not having sex, you don't need
to use a condom when you're not having sex, which
for women's birth control, you do have to maintain every day.
(17:54):
They're available seven. They work instantly there like everything women's
birth control isn't and then no side effects, zero side effects.
And if you do need a troubleshoot, like say you
have a latex allergy, you don't need to go to
the doctor for that, you can just troubleshoot. You just
get another brand. And as all of this was like
sorting out in my head and Mike I was getting angry. Anyway,
I'm like, I'm writing all this down. I'm just gonna
(18:16):
write all this down. I didn't know it would be
necessarily new ideas to anyone. Maybe maybe there were already
ask things all about this. I don't know. I was
just sort of writing it down for me to kind
of get out my frustration on WHOA, here's like the
easiest birth control in the world, and yet we've decided
as a culture, well, we can't ask men to wear condoms,
you know, that's just too much to ask. But we're
(18:38):
gonna ask women to do all this headache work, all
these side effects, all this stuff, and we don't hesitate
to do that. We start girls on birth control is
you know, as soon as they hit puberty in many cases,
and they're on it for decades, and we don't hesitate
to do that. But we can't ask a man to
wear a condom for a few minutes Like that made
me angry. And then I wrote it all down on
(19:00):
and then I wasn't sure where to share it because
I've been doing design mom forever and it was like,
is it a design mom post? I just wasn't sure
where to put it, and then decided Twitter and rewrote
it as a Twitter threat. You're perhaps one of the
most unlikely people to write your book ejaculate your sponsibly.
And one of the reasons people might think you were
unlikely is because you're Mormon. How has this book, if
(19:23):
at all, impacted your relationship with the church, with your
friends in the church, with your family. So I think
I have to start with a couple of things. One
is for sure, there's assumptions about Mormons that I'm very
well aware of. You're gonna assume they're gonna be a Republican.
You're gonna assume they're gonna be anti abortion. You're gonna
assume they probably don't swear. Certainly, they don't drink alcohol,
(19:44):
they don't drink coffee your tea. Like, these are just assumptions,
and a lot more gonna be safe assumptions. I mean,
you taught is mostly Republican. You taught the seat of Mormonism. Um,
you can only buy alcohol in certain stores and in
certain hours on certain days. That some of this stuff
is real, But you always have to remember there I
think a last count twelve millions, maybe sixteen million, more, Like,
there's a lot of Mormons in the world, so everyone's
(20:06):
not going to be the same if you have that
many people. And there are shockingly way more Democrats in
Utah than anyone would guess, you know, and and more
as the years go by. To Um, the younger generations
are skewing, of course, less and less conservative as we know.
So there are plenty of people in the Mormon Church
that feel that I'm warmoning incorrectly and are happy to
(20:29):
yell at me about that. But I get just as
many like thank you. I I'm so grateful that there's
so man in my community that's saying these things. It
makes me feel more at home. So I'm going to
tell a story about the newspaper coverage of the book
in Utah, which I think is very illustrative. Um. So,
there's two major newspapers in Utah. Ones called the Salic
Tribune and one's called the Desert News. The Desert News
(20:51):
is owned by the Mormon Church, so both of them
have talked about the book. The Slic Tribune had invited
me onto their podcast us and done some great articles,
and then someone told me, Hey, I saw the book
in Desert News. I was like, amazing because I didn't
even I didn't expect the church to cover it at all.
And I should say the church, our own newspaper, is
(21:12):
not like the church is writing all the articles. But
they didn't. But they own the newspaper anyway. So I've
looked it up and I don't see the title, and
I realized they've written a lovely positive review but haven't
used the title. It was just like a little bit
too much. So they linked to the book they they
mentioned they say, oh and with this memorable titler, they
say something about the title, but they don't actually say
(21:34):
exactly response, and I thought that's about right, Like there's
I mean, some woman's are fine with it and others
are just like it's just a little too uncomfortable for them.
So that's fine. But it has not risked my relationships,
and certainly in my own family and among my siblings
that I'm one of eight, i am the only practicing
Mormon at this point five six years ago. Everyone was practicing,
(21:55):
but they've loved the church and so so they're not
troubled by it at all. But honestly, even when a
Mormon wants to argue with me about it, I'll say,
or like sometimes I'll get on Twitter and say you
should be excommunicated, or you know, like they love to
threaten excommunication. But anyway, um, I'll say, super, please point
out in the thread what is against Mormon doctrine. Just
(22:16):
find me the tweet, find me the idea, because there's
nothing there. It's actually a very Mormon idea that men
should act responsibly, Like there's nothing weird about that in
our religion. You had mentioned that one of the unfortunate
byproducts of writing this book is that your kids get
confronted about it and are asked to sort of defend
(22:38):
the premise of the book. How is that unfolded? It's
a funny thing. It comes when I don't expect it
um and I'll I only hear about it after the fact,
after my kids have already dealt with it, right, I mean, obviously,
if I'm there, it's it's not happening. It'll be like
a cousin or a you know, cousin in law, or
it'll be someone on campus, because I know these are
(23:00):
older kids that are going to school and going to
college that clearly has thought about it, has read it,
but doesn't dare get on Twitter to actually engage with me,
because like, I'm there and I'm pretty easy to get
a hold of, you know, and so I feel more
comfortable attacking, you know, a teenager that's a college or whatever,
and you know, making them defend it. And I feel
(23:22):
like the ones that I know in real life, I
don't want to embarrass, so I'm not gonna name names,
but it is freshening to me, Like my kids didn't
write this, and they're great at defending it, but they
didn't write this. And I'm very accessible. So if you're
arguing with my kids instead of me, that's just because
you're scared of me. But yeah, I mean the other
side of this. You have six kids, so I would
(23:43):
imagine that they each have a very different relationship with
your work than each other. Right, I'm sure they don't
all react the same. How have you managed that? The
younger kids, they've been in France for three years and
haven't had to really face this, right, I mean I
wrote the threat four years ago and they were young
enough that it didn't matter that year in California where
(24:03):
it was out. Um, so it's really the older kids
have had to face it and they get to decide.
My son Ralph, he sometimes gets really irritated when he
sees people attacking me on Twitter, Like he'll get more
stressed out about than I do necessarily, and so he'll
get on and he might argue with people. My daughter Maud,
who is so good at Twitter and like like loves
(24:25):
like she always makes me laugh, but I never see
her argue with someone on Twitter, and I would never
expect that ever, Like, so it's kind of like, what's
your personality? Like I enjoy arguing with people on Twitter.
It's something I found out, Like, actually I like this,
this is fun. But but I don't expect that of
my kids, and if and when Ralph does, I don't
think he enjoys it. I think he it's just feels
(24:46):
compelled to defend his mom. And I'll have to say,
you are welcome to do this if you're having fun,
but please I'm fine, Like, do not like you have
to do this. I really am. I'm safe, you know,
like it's all good. It's the same with my siblings though,
Like I have a brother named Jared. He will soonimes
get on on Twitter and yell at people like on
my behalf like he'll stress him out to like his
(25:07):
sisters being attacked. But my other siblings don't necessarily care.
If they do notice, I haven't seen him on on
on Twitter, so it's more just like, what's your personality?
How do you want to react to it? Many people
would think it was impossible to even consider moving across
the world with six kids. Why did you think it
was possible? We moved to New York with two kids,
had three more kids in New York, and then we
(25:29):
did our first big move to Colorado from New York
after eight years there. And I guess in my head
a move as a move as a move, you know,
like I had moved across town before. I'm thinking in
New York, you know, moving from one apartment to another.
I'd moved across the country. They were both really really hard,
Like it's just really hard to do anything with little kids.
(25:50):
So I knew I wanted a big family. I had
come from a big family. My husband's also from a
big family. Were both one of eight. I wanted a
big family. But I didn't want that to hold me back,
Like we didn't hesitate moving to New York when we
have these two little kids, and I was like eight
months pregnant. I was like, people do things with kids,
People have kids all over the world. I'm just gonna
do what I want to do. Like I just didn't
(26:11):
want to hold me back, and was you know, I
was willing to do the work to move across the
country or move across the world, or whatever it might be.
And it is so different. It's so funny, like so
our youngest was nine months old when we moved to
France the first time, and then when we moved to
France this time, our youngest was nine years old, you know,
like it was a completely different, different thing. And and
(26:32):
I look back, like I we we took so many trips,
we did so much and these kids were little. I'm like,
what were we thinking? Because I was insane, but I
wanted to travel. I wanted to see Rome, I wanted
to see Norway, like and I've got all these kids,
so I guess we're taking the kids to Norway. I mean,
I don't know, Like I just I feel like I
was wanting to do what I wanted to do and
(26:53):
we can fit family life around that, and not just me,
I mean the family wants to do what the family
wants to do and we're all working around that. I
don't know, I just want that. I knew it was
hard to do that stuff, but it was like, well,
it's hard to be home with the kids too. It's
just hard to have kids. So should we have a
hard time in New York? Should we have a hard
(27:14):
time in Norway? Should we have a hard time in
fron Where do we want to have a hard time
with the kids today? And now a quick break? So, Gabby,
along this journey you've had, and it really has been
quite a journey, and I think in many ways your
story is so different than many of our other guests
because your personal and professional lives are so intertwined, and
(27:35):
they've always been so intertwined. A big part of that,
or a main character in this has been your husband.
I have seen him at your conferences. He's incredibly supportive.
What has your relationship been, Like, I mean, I love
being married. He's you know, he's my favorite person in
the world for sure. We've never really known adult life
without each other, right, Like, So I was twenty one
(27:57):
and he was twenty two when we got married, which
is very young. I was twenty three when we had
our first baby. He was twenty four. We haven't really
known adult life without kids. We haven't really known adult
life without each other, And so I don't really have
anything to compare it to, right, Like, I mean, I don't.
I didn't have a the twenties that you see on
TV where you're like, you know, falling in love and
(28:18):
breaking up and you know, moving to the city and
doing whatever. Like we moved to the city in our twenties.
We moved to New York, but we had two kids
and a third was born like a couple of weeks later,
like like it was just like a different world. But
he's been amazing, So really early on, like really early
on in our marriage, and I mean with in our parentshood,
I should say, we had this idea, like certainly the
(28:39):
culture in Utah was like the mom stays home, and
I was like, okay, so I'm supposed to stay home
with the kids, and I'm like miserable, just miserable. And
I remember saying to him, Hey, you know when you
watch the kids and you're like so worn out at it,
and you're like, oh my gosh, it's so we're out
and I'm so glad for a break when it's done. Yeah,
I feel like that too, all of time, all day.
(29:00):
It doesn't matter that I'm the mom. It's just as
hard for me. I promised, like I it's so hard,
and he just like got it. He didn't try and
argue or whatever. He's like, oh okay, like it hadn't
occurred to him until someone told them, because how I
mean it had occurred to me either. And we started
splitting the day. So we're both entrepreneurs and I would
(29:21):
do I mean, like I had a little design business
and he had the little language learning business, and I
would work from like nine to one and then we'd
have lunch and then he'd work from like two to
six or some version of that, and we just started
splaying the day and just like we couldn't afford child cares,
so we were, you know, we'd take care of the
kids on our time off and it was only we'd
(29:41):
only get these concentrated few hours and then we could
always try and work again and in the evening if
the kids were asleep, you know, that kind of thing.
But we just said, okay, we're just gonna share this
and that was great. And then there were times where
we couldn't do that, Like he went back to school.
He got two masters and a PhD at Columbia. This
was like intense stuff. When we're living in New York.
We needed money. I'm you know, working full time. I mean,
there have been times where we couldn't split the day
(30:03):
the way we wanted to, but we were always aiming
for that and as soon as we could, we'd get
back there. And so when he finished his PhD, I
had started design mom. Like we you know, we both
kind of got to this good place at the same time,
and since then we have both worked at home and
just been able to share everything, you know. So this
(30:24):
is before like remote work he got hired when we
were in New York, he got hired by a d
C company to work remotely, and then we worked for
them in Colorado, worked for them in France, and then
I had against our design mom and it was taking off.
So we had some years where we couldn't share it,
but then as soon as we could again, we started
sharing it. And we've just shared parenting and the workload
(30:45):
since then. I know, not everyone can do it. We
were always aiming for that, like once we understood, like
that's what we needed, like that's what we were aiming for,
and when anyone asked me for advice and like how
to manage things. What saved us is flexible schedules, meaning
like we didn't have to be in an office from
eight to five or or any version of that. I
(31:07):
had so much work, He had so much work, but
we could fit it in where we could fit it in.
So if someone needed to get to the school for
a play or get to a doctor's appointment for something like,
we never had to take off work. We never had
to get permission. That is huge, and sometimes in a
couple you maybe have one of those, and that's that's amazing.
(31:28):
If you can get two of them. I mean, that's amazing.
And I know so many people went to work remotely
during the pandemic, and I know that's changing, people are
being drawn back. But I just want to tell people, like,
just demand it if you can, especially when the kids
are little, especially when the kids like those years when
the kids are little. If you have flexible schedules, you
(31:49):
really can maintain or even grow a career if you
have a truly flexible schedule. If you don't, it's impossible.
Maintenance is the best I feel like you can do
if you do not have him a flexible schedule. So
if you've got a work situation where it would work
remotely in any way, try to like prove it demanded,
show okay, how it's better or whatever, because it just
(32:10):
makes all the difference. At least for me it did.
And to have both of us, that's huge. But Ben
is amazing. He's been super supportive. He's really great. He'll
he'll make like today he came down and he's like,
I made a testimonial about vasectomies because it's Vasectomies World
v Sectomy Day, and so he post this like testimonial
about how awesome his vasectomy was and like how fast
(32:31):
he healed and how great it's been. And I mean,
he's just the best, and he like gets it, and
he's he's just such a good cheerleader for what I'm
working on. And I certainly couldn't have had a big
family without a partner that was interested in that. But
he's just been he just gets it, and he he
understands what the work of parenting is. Like, he gets it.
I don't have to explain it to him. I don't know.
(32:53):
He's terrific. And I'm sure part of that is like
we're home all the time. We've been home all the time.
He can see what renting is. And I should also
be clear, like we do lots of gendered stuff. He
always gets the gas. I end up doing the laundry,
Like there's stuff we do that's gendered. I don't mean
to say we split everything like exactly fifty fifty, but
(33:14):
in general, the workload of the house, the workload of parenting,
we've just always shared it. Yeah, but you're such a
creative person and you must always kind of be thinking
about what's next, Like what is your next creative pursuit?
Ben and I actually signed a contract for a parenting
book even before the abortion book, and then the abortion
(33:35):
books sort of like it felt the more timely things
with the same publisher, and they're like, actually, let's do
the abortion book first, because it's just like, well, you
have seen the news anyways, so so we'd like to
do the parenting book. I'm also were like still deep
in renovations, not in the house we're living in, but
the house in our backyard. And then there's like a
little cottage. So that's really fun for us. It's very
(33:57):
creative work. I love it. And then I keep feeling
like so in college and when I studied graphic design,
my goal was to be a textile designer. I had
this like I want to like walk into a stranger's
house someday and like, hey, I designed you know those
curtains or those sheets or I don't know, Like I
love that whole idea and I love textiles and I
loved all of it, and I have never done that.
(34:17):
I mean, like my senior project was like, here's my
collection of fabrics, and then like I've never Actually I'm
like that would be a creative for suit I would
love to do, which has nothing to do with anything
else here? But and then I I feel like I
pitched a new book just casually to my publisher, Like
what if winning more on menopause? How about a book
of you know, like or hey, how about these essays?
Or Twitter is going away? Could I compile all the
(34:39):
threads I've written into it book. I don't know. I'm
I'm constantly writing. Um. But yeah. When I think of
creative resuits, it's funny because my mind doesn't go to
writing necessarily. It always goes to like design stuff. Do
you want to go to the speed around now? Yes? Okay, Gabby?
What podcast are you listening to other than ours? Of course?
Of course listeners? And I really love Maintenance Face and
(35:01):
anything Michael Hobbs does. I love Michael Hobbs. What is
your morning routine? Okay? So we get up, drive the
kids to school. If it's cold, sometimes I want to walk,
and then I often go do something renovation e in
the morning, like before I've showered, put on my work
and do something like dusty and gross, then take my
shower and then um, then I'm on my laptop for
(35:22):
too many hours and phone and anyway, I am long
past morning. Now you travel a lot. What do you
do when you're on a plane. I will try to
sleep as much as I can, and if not that,
I play a lot of Sudoku or like solitaire, you know,
just like the dumbest games. Who leaves You Star Strick.
II still adore Martha Stewart, which I know, like we
(35:44):
don't see her in the news as much, and I've
gotten to meet her. I've gone an interviewer. I think
she's so freaking brilliant. She's just amazing. I love her
so much. Where will you go on your next vacation?
I want to go back to Italy, Like there's just
I've been a lot of times, but there's always more
and I love it and guys, the food and the
gelatto and I to come on like it's just never
a bad idea. What's your favorite beverage? Um? I love
(36:07):
root beer. I'm thinking of it because I miss I
can't get it here? Is that the most Mormon answer?
I love route beer and I want like a root
beer float, like that's what I want, Like, oh, it's
the best when I can't have root beer. Yeah, if
I need a fancier drink, I'll do lime Ebidders, which
someone taught me when we were in Australia, and I
(36:28):
love it so much and it was like, it sounds fancy,
but it's safe, safe for non drinkers. Thank you so much, Gab.
Thank you so fun to see your face. Is so
fun to talk to you miss being with you in person.
A mean, that was so much fun to have Gabby on.
I mean, we both have our own individual friendships with her,
(36:49):
and I think she's inspired both of us in different ways.
And I don't know, there's just something so energizing about
listening to her. She is one of the most magical
people I've ever met. I think it's hard to describe,
but the first time you're in a room with Gabby,
she's warm, she's real, and she's curious. And I think,
you know, that's the thing about Gabby is she's always learning. Like,
in some ways I'm surprised she wrote this wildly global
(37:12):
viral thread about abortion, and then in other ways, I
am completely not surprised that she did this, because she's
just always trying new things and voicing her opinion. And
I hope it gives other women out there the conviction
to try things and to try them publicly. Well, one
of the special things about Gabby is her confidence. I mean,
(37:32):
if every woman had the confidence Gabby has, the world
would be an entirely different place. That's right. I also
think Amy, what's so wild is like she didn't have
a wild sex life that led to this book, right,
Like she's kind of writing the book for something she
hasn't even experienced, and it almost lends kind of more credibility,
(37:55):
whereas normally you would think that lends less credibility. It
almost makes her more of an authority there. It's just
there's something about her that makes you stop and listen.
And I know you you recently when you you worked
with her recently on the last ALT summit, and you
said something to me about how calm she is no
matter what is going on, she has always calm, Like
I'm over here, like in the corner of freaking out
(38:17):
about something. I mean, we're putting on a thousand person
conference in New York and Gaby is just like it's fine,
it's okay, and always yeah, I'm just it was very remarkable,
but it is interesting, Sam, like, no, she didn't have
this wild sex life, but the concerns about contraception and
our ability to decide when we want to have children
remain with us long after we become mothers. And I think,
(38:40):
like that's one of the reasons I love her threats
so much, and even in talking to her today about it,
it's like, dealing with birth control is something we deal
with until we can't bear children anymore, right, unless our
partner has a vasectomy or you know, like and I
feel like this abortion debate gets cabined into this idea
that it isn't something that impacts mothers, but it impacts
(39:02):
mothers so much. But see, this is the thing, right,
And this is what was interesting and tricky about this
interview is like we could have done the entire interview
talking about the book, right because it is so controversial,
there's so much to stay around it. But really, the
next time we talk to Gabby, it definitely won't be
on this topic because she goes from topic to topic
and she's just as passionate and curious about each one.
(39:25):
And I think that's why I love this interview so
much too, because we really got to the heart of
her story. And you know, most of her interviews are
about the topics, and I think one of the really
fascinating things is just how she arrived here. Absolutely. I mean,
this is one of the things when I think about
Gabby that I always think is that I hope when
my four daughters grow up they have the confidence and
(39:48):
warmth that she has. Thanks for listening to What's Her
Story with Sam and Amy. We would appreciate it if
you leave her review wherever you get your podcast, and
of course connect with us on social media at What's
Her Story podcast. What's Her Story with Sam and Amy
is powered by my company, The Riveter at the Riveter
(40:09):
dot c o in Sam's company, park Place Payments at
park place payments dot com. Thanks to our producer Stacy
Parra and our male perspective, Blue Burns
I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to What's
Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a show
about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and personal journeys. Together,
we'll hear from Gold medalists, best selling authors, and leaders
of the world's most iconic brands. Listen every Thursday, or
join the conversation anytime on Instagram at What's Her Story Podcast.
(00:30):
Gabrielle Blair's original website, Design Mom, was named a Time
Magazine Website of the Year. She is the founder of
the design conference Alt Summit and author of the New
York Times best selling book Design Mom. Her newest book
is Ejaculate Responsibly, a whole new way to think about abortion. So, Gabby,
(00:51):
let's dig in a little bit to your story. You
call yourself an accidental thought leader. How did this journey begin? Well,
I mean I went to school for graphic design. I
certainly didn't think of myself as a writer or or
any kind of thought leader that way. Um I did
think of myself as a problem solver. For me, design
was always problem solving, and um so that has ended
(01:14):
up affecting how I approach any of these current event topics.
But um, basically I started the blog and I called
a design mom, and I said the subtitle was the
intersection of design and parenting, and or maybe it was
design and motherhood. And I quickly realized I could write
about anything at that intersection. Like it really allowed me
(01:36):
to kind of do whatever I wanted, which was so
great for me, because I didn want to write about everything.
I wanted to write about parenting, I wanted to write
about design. I wanted to write about you know, the
elections or whatever is happening, my religion, like I wanted
to write about all of it, and um, it allowed
me too, So that was great. If there was something
that felt very out of reach, I could always just
add a question at the end. It was like, how
(01:57):
would you talk about this with your children? You know?
And that's like now it's parenting now, now it's at
the intersection. And as blogging changed, remember two thousands six
is pre pinterest, pre Instagram, pre any of that, and
a blog post at that time really was on a
design blog was as simple as like, look at this cube,
(02:18):
you know, diaper bag I found in a link like
that that was a blog post, and you'd do like
three or four a day, or you'd be like, here's
something cool I found. I mean, it was less work
even than an Instagram post, you know, it was just
so simple, and that's kind of what a blog was.
But then blocks changed. We got all these other visual
outlets and now we're like writing essays and they were
always essay blogs, but design blogs weren't that, and so
(02:40):
my posts got longer and longer form as I stuck
with this, and eventually I'm like, oh, I'm I'm like
writing a lot. And I still wasn't calling myself a writer.
In fact, maybe in the last year I've called myself
a writer a few times, but still in my head
was like, well, not a writer, I'm a designer. So
that's where when I talked about being an accident thought leader.
(03:00):
I didn't set out to do this, but the design mom,
I mean, for at least a decade, had a very big,
steady audience. I could talk about anything. The comments section
was amazing, just like the smartest woman in the world,
all discussing stuff, having different points of view, but never
attacking each other. It would always just be someone saying,
(03:22):
well this has been my experience, and like sharing their story,
and then someone else might share a totally different story,
but it was never like you or you know, it
was just the most friendly place. It was. It was amazing.
And so people reading or watching are being exposed to
so many different points of view from so many different
people and so many different you know, from different walks
of life, and in this you know, non threatening way,
(03:46):
and it just was really really wonderful. And so then
I started, of course getting requests on like hey, can
you discuss X topic? Can you discuss this? Because they
wanted this discussion, this safe discussion place, and so I would.
I would right about whatever was happening in the world.
And as my kids were getting older too, we were
discussing that stuff at the dinner table anyway, Like they're
(04:08):
the stuff that some of you want to child your
kids from. They're not being shielded from. They're seeing it
on TikTok or they're seeing on Twitter or wherever they are, Like,
they're seeing the same headlines that I'm seeing, and so
let's talk about it, you know, and and um, so
whatever we were talking about the dinner table, I knew
the blog audience would want to talk about two. And
I could translate a post there at what point did
the blog turn into a business That was like almost immediate,
(04:31):
but the business has changed over the years. But what
happened was a few months in I put on this
software called track c. This is before Google Analytics, and
this is like a little analytics program that showed you
how many people are coming to your blog. I was
getting three or four comments on a post. So I
was like, I was delighted. It was wonderful, but I
knew every single person right that was writing. So I
(04:53):
put tracks the on and it's blowing my mind. It's
like people have come to your blog today or and
I was like, what who are these people? Like one
of the world, Like it was just like shocking to me.
Of course, those numbers are so tiny now compared to
how big a group. But at the time, I was like,
there's four comments and I know them. Who are these
ninety nine? Like what is this? I blew my mind?
(05:16):
And I was so curious, and I was like I
want them to say hello, like I want him to
say hello. So I invented the blog giveaway. Like I
don't know if you guys know that I did the
first blog emory comment to it. Yeah, So I so
I was like, what could get them to do this?
I knew it was a learned thing. Remember, people hadn't
done caption yet, Like to leave a comment was like
(05:37):
a learned skill, like where do you go? What do
you do? You know? Like it felt scary, So I'm like,
I need to give them some motivation. So my husband
had a high school friend who had just started a
shop and this cue little online shop, and I said, hey,
would you send a prize to a winner? She's like, yeah,
I'll send these earrings. I'm like, great, super And so
I say, hey, if you leave a comment, you're entered
(05:59):
to win. We're gonna randomly pick someone. And and then
Darley was gonna send you these earrings. And Darley Bird's
the shop. And I got like seventy comments, and my
phone is ringing off the hook because all the people that,
like people I knew in real life are called me, going,
who are these people who is reading your blood? How
(06:20):
did they find it? Because in their minds, it's like
they're reading it and they're like neighbors reading it and
like my sisters reading it, because that's who they're seeing
comments from. So the commenters kind of knew each other
in real life too, and then all of a sudden
that change. Here's like all these people and it was
really really fun. Immediately afterwards, I probably received thirty emails
from other bloggers saying can I copy and paste it?
(06:42):
Like can I can I do the same people? I'm
like yeah, I'm sure whatever and like. So that is
when I was like, oh, this is a business. When
I realized like, oh, there's people here, something's happening here. Okay,
how do I do this? And so then I started
selling little ads on my side, and then eventually I
got signed with Federated Media, which is defunct now but
(07:03):
made a lot of careers. That's when I signed with them.
That was two thousand and ten, so that was already
a lot of years. That's when I was getting a
full time income from blogging. But until then I was
just like scrambling, scrambling, scrambling. I started All Summit that year.
It's like I was like using my blogging connections to
get speakers for All Summit. Like once I saw that
track see data of like there's like a hundred people here,
(07:25):
I was like, Oh, something's going on. And of course
I just kept growing and growing. When you first started
All summit, What was the idea behind all summit? And
how do you just start a conference? How do you
make it happen? For a couple of years, I'd gone
to blog her and that was like the conference at
the time. I really loved it, had so much fun.
Went to Chicago, but every class I went to was
(07:46):
about writing. It was like writers, which is great, and
a lot of mom you know, it's like the mom
blog era, so a lot of mom writers, which you know,
I'm I'm my blog called design Mom, so I'm fitting
right in, except that I'm more than reading these mom blogs.
I was reading design blogs. I was reading design Sponge
and oh Joy and Apartment Therapy. And none of them
(08:07):
had kids yet, you know, and they certainly weren't doing
sort of parenting kind of blogs. And none of them
were at these conferences, and we weren't talking about any
of the topics that affected design bloggers. And I have
a sister, Jordan Ferny, who had started a design block.
She also didn't have kids yet. I had a sister
in law list down they who started saying yes, who
(08:28):
also didn't have kids yet, and so they're part of
the design blog world. And we were all on this trip,
and I was just telling them, like, I love going
to these converces. It's so fun. Um, it's so fun
because you're, like, you know, you work so isolated as
a as a blogger and now a content creator whatever
we're calling ourselves these days, and it's so fun to
just go like talk shop in person with like people
(08:49):
that get it right. Like, I love these conferences. And
I was saying, but I wish like the design bloggers
were that. That's who I want to meet. That's why
I want to hear from. I want to learn what
they're what they're doing. So then my sister Sarah, who
not a blogger, but who has done a lot of
events stuff. She's her husband's a politician at the time,
and she had stayed political science as well and had
(09:10):
done just like a lot of political events, and she
was like, well, let's do a design blog conference. I'll
do the organization part and like, you know, all the
bloggers and you can get them all there, And so
she did all the event organization. We held it in
Salt Lake City, which is where she was connected to,
and we called it Altitude Design Summit because it was
in the mountains. And then it got short into all
(09:32):
summit very quickly. And then the first panel, the opening
panel was Maxwell from Apartment Therapy, Great Spawnie from Design
Spawn Design Sponge had their Armstrong of Deuce who was
both mommy blogger but also this photographer designer, and then
um Gene of of Not Caught, which maybe you don't
know as well, but as it was a big, big
deal at the time anyway, so this is the opening
(09:54):
panel of the conference, and it was like, oh, this
is real, this is like, these are the top names,
like and this answers saw it. We're like, oh, this
is a thing, Like this is I mean, this is
the thing. Right. So that first year though, I mean sponsors,
like who did we have. I don't don't even remember,
Like it was local friends or whatever. It was just
like trying to pull this together. But like you had
this this opening panel that you could point to that
(10:17):
We're like, these are the big names, and it was
like oh the next year it was so much easier
to sell tickets, so much easier to get sponsorships, etcetera.
But basically, if you have an event plunting background or
some experience there, that's what you need to you know,
talk to a hotel. Talk to Ben, use that kind
of stuff. Make sure you know how much food do
you need to have? You know, all that kind of stuff.
And then for the content that was my area, like
(10:38):
what are we talking about, what are the panels about,
what's happening there? So I mean, yes, go start a conference.
I have to tell you another story of the first
the first all semmate. One of the attendees, his name
has been named Ben Silverman. He was just an attendee.
He had just signed up, heard about it and signed up,
and he was walking around trying to get people to
look at his his little website he created. It's a
(11:00):
little beta version to kind of check it out, and
everyone's you know, super friendly, and we're all checking it out.
And one of the people he really connected with was
Victoria Smith, who's sp girl by the Bay big big
design blogger, and they ended up like flying back to
the Bay Area at the same time. And the little
site that Ben was showing your own was Pinterest. And
the next year he came and he's the panelist this time.
(11:24):
By then, like the design world had found Pinterest and
was like, this is amazing, It's exactly what we needed.
This is just like so perfect, we can bookmark all
our visuals. And the next year, the third year, he
came and he's the keynote like Pinters had just like
take it off in a huge way and one of
his quotes that we've used because we love so much
as he says, all sum it is the the soil
(11:47):
that Pinterest grew out of. And it is like he
came and he found exactly who he needed to find.
He found all the coolest design bloggers who were like
so visual and cool and could just pin the most
amazing content and it really grew Pinterest a wonderful way.
And now a quick break. So your new book is
called Ejaculate Responsibly. And it started out as a Twitter thread.
(12:13):
Did you really think out the thread or did you
write it as you went or like how did it unfold?
Because this Twitter dread for people who don't know millions
and millions interactions over a course of years, Like I
don't think there's been a day where that thread isn't
still making magic on Twitter still. I was just on
(12:34):
Twitter today. It's still doing stuff on Twitter today. Yeah.
It's been so with September and we're in November, so
it's uh, yeah, four years plus now it's it's been active.
So I wrote out my thoughts or sort of an
essay form of that, maybe six months before the actual thread.
(12:55):
I'd never written a Twitter thread before, and it's different.
You have to like break it up into these very
specific lengths, and so I did rewrite it kind of
for Twitter that day that I published it. But I mean,
Twitter is funny, like I've been on it longer than
any other social media. I think I got on in
two thousand and eight, but then I didn't use it
for years, or like would barely use it. If I
(13:17):
had like a sponsored post, i'd put it on Twitter
or something like that, but I wasn't really actively using it.
And then during two thousand fifteen, when a lot of
us were paying attention to it because of the election
and a lot was happening on Twitter, I got back
on and really just started observing. I wasn't creating content.
I was just observing and I'm doing a lot of retweeting,
(13:38):
which I still is probably the main thing I do.
And I realized it was like a whole different world
than the Twitter I used to know, and there was
a different culture there now, and I really loved it.
I was super into it, so I decided to try
this as a thread. But threads are supposed to be
pretty short. I mean, like if you need to write
an essay, go like write a blog post or something.
(13:58):
And this thread that I wrote, my very first one,
is sixty three tweets, which is just so bad form.
It's just like not I mean, you guys, know you're
on Twitter, like at it makes you like tweet it
and then you can add more, but like is sort
of like the natural limit, and here it was sixty three.
So that's just super obnoxious. I mean, I have an
(14:19):
ego for sure, And I was very nervous that not
that I was gonna get yelled at because I've been
yelled at online before, but that I was going to
be ashamed because I was like putting myself out there
with sixty three tweets, and like what if no one
even looked at it? Like what if it's just like
got no reaction. That I was like super worried about.
(14:40):
So I was like mentally trying to add up, like
how fast can ideally sixty three tweets one at a
time and get rid of this threat if I need
to pretend it never happened. You said, you've written out
your thoughts about abortion six months before. I don't remember
exactly what it was, but I had looked up abortion statistics.
It's like how many abortions are happening each year? So
(15:02):
I must have read an article, maybe seeing something on
Twitter that drove me to do that, so I was
looking it up. I mean, maybe I was just arguing
with someone I don't know, and I remember seeing the
number and it was higher than I thought. It was like,
I don't know what number was in my head. It's
not like there was one, but I was like, oh,
that's that's more abortions than I would have guessed if
I had just like guess. And so then I started
(15:24):
trying to problem solve that, like, well, why is that
never so high? Because of course I'm thinking, you know,
there's birth control options out there, and it's not like,
I mean, I know, women don't even like to go
get paps mars. We have to sort of like psychologically
prepare for any kind of gyneological visit. We're not just
like casually heading out over to get an abortion, like
that's not a thing. So then I was like, so,
(15:45):
what's happening there, and then it was just like this click.
I was like, oh, I know why people wouldn't necessarily
be on birth control because I have used every form
of birth control and they have worked. I got to
choose when I had my babies, which is amazing, and
that's exactly what we want for people. But I did
not like the side effects. I did not enjoy that.
That's why I've tried every kind like trying to troubleshoot,
(16:06):
trying to find something, and beyond the side effects, I
found the maintenance so challenging as I had all these
little kids. So you know, you've just had a baby.
You need to get birth control. You got to go
back to the doctor and get disappointment, have another exam,
then again stand in line for prescription or maybe eventually
I got I could get it mailed, you know, but
(16:28):
you had to set that up, and then by the
time you get it, it still doesn't It doesn't even
take effect. I'm thinking of the pill doesn't even take
effect for about a week. And if you forget or
you mess up, you feel terrified, like, oh crap, what
did I do? You know? How do I correct this?
You're like online trying to figure out if it's okay,
or if it's like a shot, which I've also done,
You're having to go back every few months to get
(16:50):
a new shot, and like remember when that is and
are you getting child care for that? Are you taking
out for work for that? You know, like are you
having to make any other arrangements. It's just was I
found it really really ch challenging, and I was I
was in a place where I had insurance, right, like,
I have the basics covered. It's not like I was
even in Ah. I mean there there are times would
would be even harder than when I had it, and
(17:10):
I still found it really challenging. So for me, that's
where I started going, oh, it's really hard. We make
birth control so hard for women. And then of course
my mind went to, will you know women aren't the
only ones here, men? Men are also involved in this equation,
you know what's happening there, And that's when I started
thinking about condoms and vasectomies, but specifically condoms, and that
(17:34):
they're kind of the opposite of women's birth control, meaning
they're easily accessible, no doctor's appointment required, they're super affordable,
you can usually get them free. In fact, every state
has a free condom program, you don't need to take
them if when you're not having sex, you don't need
to use a condom when you're not having sex, which
for women's birth control, you do have to maintain every day.
(17:54):
They're available seven. They work instantly there like everything women's
birth control isn't and then no side effects, zero side effects.
And if you do need a troubleshoot, like say you
have a latex allergy, you don't need to go to
the doctor for that, you can just troubleshoot. You just
get another brand. And as all of this was like
sorting out in my head and Mike I was getting angry. Anyway,
I'm like, I'm writing all this down. I'm just gonna
(18:16):
write all this down. I didn't know it would be
necessarily new ideas to anyone. Maybe maybe there were already
ask things all about this. I don't know. I was
just sort of writing it down for me to kind
of get out my frustration on WHOA, here's like the
easiest birth control in the world, and yet we've decided
as a culture, well, we can't ask men to wear condoms,
you know, that's just too much to ask. But we're
(18:38):
gonna ask women to do all this headache work, all
these side effects, all this stuff, and we don't hesitate
to do that. We start girls on birth control is
you know, as soon as they hit puberty in many cases,
and they're on it for decades, and we don't hesitate
to do that. But we can't ask a man to
wear a condom for a few minutes Like that made
me angry. And then I wrote it all down on
(19:00):
and then I wasn't sure where to share it because
I've been doing design mom forever and it was like,
is it a design mom post? I just wasn't sure
where to put it, and then decided Twitter and rewrote
it as a Twitter threat. You're perhaps one of the
most unlikely people to write your book ejaculate your sponsibly.
And one of the reasons people might think you were
unlikely is because you're Mormon. How has this book, if
(19:23):
at all, impacted your relationship with the church, with your
friends in the church, with your family. So I think
I have to start with a couple of things. One
is for sure, there's assumptions about Mormons that I'm very
well aware of. You're gonna assume they're gonna be a Republican.
You're gonna assume they're gonna be anti abortion. You're gonna
assume they probably don't swear. Certainly, they don't drink alcohol,
(19:44):
they don't drink coffee your tea. Like, these are just assumptions,
and a lot more gonna be safe assumptions. I mean,
you taught is mostly Republican. You taught the seat of Mormonism. Um,
you can only buy alcohol in certain stores and in
certain hours on certain days. That some of this stuff
is real, But you always have to remember there I
think a last count twelve millions, maybe sixteen million, more, Like,
there's a lot of Mormons in the world, so everyone's
(20:06):
not going to be the same if you have that
many people. And there are shockingly way more Democrats in
Utah than anyone would guess, you know, and and more
as the years go by. To Um, the younger generations
are skewing, of course, less and less conservative as we know.
So there are plenty of people in the Mormon Church
that feel that I'm warmoning incorrectly and are happy to
(20:29):
yell at me about that. But I get just as
many like thank you. I I'm so grateful that there's
so man in my community that's saying these things. It
makes me feel more at home. So I'm going to
tell a story about the newspaper coverage of the book
in Utah, which I think is very illustrative. Um. So,
there's two major newspapers in Utah. Ones called the Salic
Tribune and one's called the Desert News. The Desert News
(20:51):
is owned by the Mormon Church, so both of them
have talked about the book. The Slic Tribune had invited
me onto their podcast us and done some great articles,
and then someone told me, Hey, I saw the book
in Desert News. I was like, amazing because I didn't
even I didn't expect the church to cover it at all.
And I should say the church, our own newspaper, is
(21:12):
not like the church is writing all the articles. But
they didn't. But they own the newspaper anyway. So I've
looked it up and I don't see the title, and
I realized they've written a lovely positive review but haven't
used the title. It was just like a little bit
too much. So they linked to the book they they
mentioned they say, oh and with this memorable titler, they
say something about the title, but they don't actually say
(21:34):
exactly response, and I thought that's about right, Like there's
I mean, some woman's are fine with it and others
are just like it's just a little too uncomfortable for them.
So that's fine. But it has not risked my relationships,
and certainly in my own family and among my siblings
that I'm one of eight, i am the only practicing
Mormon at this point five six years ago. Everyone was practicing,
(21:55):
but they've loved the church and so so they're not
troubled by it at all. But honestly, even when a
Mormon wants to argue with me about it, I'll say,
or like sometimes I'll get on Twitter and say you
should be excommunicated, or you know, like they love to
threaten excommunication. But anyway, um, I'll say, super, please point
out in the thread what is against Mormon doctrine. Just
(22:16):
find me the tweet, find me the idea, because there's
nothing there. It's actually a very Mormon idea that men
should act responsibly, Like there's nothing weird about that in
our religion. You had mentioned that one of the unfortunate
byproducts of writing this book is that your kids get
confronted about it and are asked to sort of defend
(22:38):
the premise of the book. How is that unfolded? It's
a funny thing. It comes when I don't expect it
um and I'll I only hear about it after the fact,
after my kids have already dealt with it, right, I mean, obviously,
if I'm there, it's it's not happening. It'll be like
a cousin or a you know, cousin in law, or
it'll be someone on campus, because I know these are
(23:00):
older kids that are going to school and going to
college that clearly has thought about it, has read it,
but doesn't dare get on Twitter to actually engage with me,
because like, I'm there and I'm pretty easy to get
a hold of, you know, and so I feel more
comfortable attacking, you know, a teenager that's a college or whatever,
and you know, making them defend it. And I feel
(23:22):
like the ones that I know in real life, I
don't want to embarrass, so I'm not gonna name names,
but it is freshening to me, Like my kids didn't
write this, and they're great at defending it, but they
didn't write this. And I'm very accessible. So if you're
arguing with my kids instead of me, that's just because
you're scared of me. But yeah, I mean the other
side of this. You have six kids, so I would
(23:43):
imagine that they each have a very different relationship with
your work than each other. Right, I'm sure they don't
all react the same. How have you managed that? The
younger kids, they've been in France for three years and
haven't had to really face this, right, I mean I
wrote the threat four years ago and they were young
enough that it didn't matter that year in California where
(24:03):
it was out. Um, so it's really the older kids
have had to face it and they get to decide.
My son Ralph, he sometimes gets really irritated when he
sees people attacking me on Twitter, Like he'll get more
stressed out about than I do necessarily, and so he'll
get on and he might argue with people. My daughter Maud,
who is so good at Twitter and like like loves
(24:25):
like she always makes me laugh, but I never see
her argue with someone on Twitter, and I would never
expect that ever, Like, so it's kind of like, what's
your personality? Like I enjoy arguing with people on Twitter.
It's something I found out, Like, actually I like this,
this is fun. But but I don't expect that of
my kids, and if and when Ralph does, I don't
think he enjoys it. I think he it's just feels
(24:46):
compelled to defend his mom. And I'll have to say,
you are welcome to do this if you're having fun,
but please I'm fine, Like, do not like you have
to do this. I really am. I'm safe, you know,
like it's all good. It's the same with my siblings though,
Like I have a brother named Jared. He will soonimes
get on on Twitter and yell at people like on
my behalf like he'll stress him out to like his
(25:07):
sisters being attacked. But my other siblings don't necessarily care.
If they do notice, I haven't seen him on on
on Twitter, so it's more just like, what's your personality?
How do you want to react to it? Many people
would think it was impossible to even consider moving across
the world with six kids. Why did you think it
was possible? We moved to New York with two kids,
had three more kids in New York, and then we
(25:29):
did our first big move to Colorado from New York
after eight years there. And I guess in my head
a move as a move as a move, you know,
like I had moved across town before. I'm thinking in
New York, you know, moving from one apartment to another.
I'd moved across the country. They were both really really hard,
Like it's just really hard to do anything with little kids.
(25:50):
So I knew I wanted a big family. I had
come from a big family. My husband's also from a
big family. Were both one of eight. I wanted a
big family. But I didn't want that to hold me back,
Like we didn't hesitate moving to New York when we
have these two little kids, and I was like eight
months pregnant. I was like, people do things with kids,
People have kids all over the world. I'm just gonna
do what I want to do. Like I just didn't
(26:11):
want to hold me back, and was you know, I
was willing to do the work to move across the
country or move across the world, or whatever it might be.
And it is so different. It's so funny, like so
our youngest was nine months old when we moved to
France the first time, and then when we moved to
France this time, our youngest was nine years old, you know,
like it was a completely different, different thing. And and
(26:32):
I look back, like I we we took so many trips,
we did so much and these kids were little. I'm like,
what were we thinking? Because I was insane, but I
wanted to travel. I wanted to see Rome, I wanted
to see Norway, like and I've got all these kids,
so I guess we're taking the kids to Norway. I mean,
I don't know, Like I just I feel like I
was wanting to do what I wanted to do and
(26:53):
we can fit family life around that, and not just me,
I mean the family wants to do what the family
wants to do and we're all working around that. I
don't know, I just want that. I knew it was
hard to do that stuff, but it was like, well,
it's hard to be home with the kids too. It's
just hard to have kids. So should we have a
hard time in New York? Should we have a hard
(27:14):
time in Norway? Should we have a hard time in
fron Where do we want to have a hard time
with the kids today? And now a quick break? So, Gabby,
along this journey you've had, and it really has been
quite a journey, and I think in many ways your
story is so different than many of our other guests
because your personal and professional lives are so intertwined, and
(27:35):
they've always been so intertwined. A big part of that,
or a main character in this has been your husband.
I have seen him at your conferences. He's incredibly supportive.
What has your relationship been, Like, I mean, I love
being married. He's you know, he's my favorite person in
the world for sure. We've never really known adult life
without each other, right, Like, So I was twenty one
(27:57):
and he was twenty two when we got married, which
is very young. I was twenty three when we had
our first baby. He was twenty four. We haven't really
known adult life without kids. We haven't really known adult
life without each other, And so I don't really have
anything to compare it to, right, Like, I mean, I don't.
I didn't have a the twenties that you see on
TV where you're like, you know, falling in love and
(28:18):
breaking up and you know, moving to the city and
doing whatever. Like we moved to the city in our twenties.
We moved to New York, but we had two kids
and a third was born like a couple of weeks later,
like like it was just like a different world. But
he's been amazing, So really early on, like really early
on in our marriage, and I mean with in our parentshood,
I should say, we had this idea, like certainly the
(28:39):
culture in Utah was like the mom stays home, and
I was like, okay, so I'm supposed to stay home
with the kids, and I'm like miserable, just miserable. And
I remember saying to him, Hey, you know when you
watch the kids and you're like so worn out at it,
and you're like, oh my gosh, it's so we're out
and I'm so glad for a break when it's done. Yeah,
I feel like that too, all of time, all day.
(29:00):
It doesn't matter that I'm the mom. It's just as
hard for me. I promised, like I it's so hard,
and he just like got it. He didn't try and
argue or whatever. He's like, oh okay, like it hadn't
occurred to him until someone told them, because how I
mean it had occurred to me either. And we started
splitting the day. So we're both entrepreneurs and I would
(29:21):
do I mean, like I had a little design business
and he had the little language learning business, and I
would work from like nine to one and then we'd
have lunch and then he'd work from like two to
six or some version of that, and we just started
splaying the day and just like we couldn't afford child cares,
so we were, you know, we'd take care of the
kids on our time off and it was only we'd
(29:41):
only get these concentrated few hours and then we could
always try and work again and in the evening if
the kids were asleep, you know, that kind of thing.
But we just said, okay, we're just gonna share this
and that was great. And then there were times where
we couldn't do that, Like he went back to school.
He got two masters and a PhD at Columbia. This
was like intense stuff. When we're living in New York.
We needed money. I'm you know, working full time. I mean,
there have been times where we couldn't split the day
(30:03):
the way we wanted to, but we were always aiming
for that and as soon as we could, we'd get
back there. And so when he finished his PhD, I
had started design mom. Like we you know, we both
kind of got to this good place at the same time,
and since then we have both worked at home and
just been able to share everything, you know. So this
(30:24):
is before like remote work he got hired when we
were in New York, he got hired by a d
C company to work remotely, and then we worked for
them in Colorado, worked for them in France, and then
I had against our design mom and it was taking off.
So we had some years where we couldn't share it,
but then as soon as we could again, we started
sharing it. And we've just shared parenting and the workload
(30:45):
since then. I know, not everyone can do it. We
were always aiming for that, like once we understood, like
that's what we needed, like that's what we were aiming for,
and when anyone asked me for advice and like how
to manage things. What saved us is flexible schedules, meaning
like we didn't have to be in an office from
eight to five or or any version of that. I
(31:07):
had so much work, He had so much work, but
we could fit it in where we could fit it in.
So if someone needed to get to the school for
a play or get to a doctor's appointment for something like,
we never had to take off work. We never had
to get permission. That is huge, and sometimes in a
couple you maybe have one of those, and that's that's amazing.
(31:28):
If you can get two of them. I mean, that's amazing.
And I know so many people went to work remotely
during the pandemic, and I know that's changing, people are
being drawn back. But I just want to tell people, like,
just demand it if you can, especially when the kids
are little, especially when the kids like those years when
the kids are little. If you have flexible schedules, you
(31:49):
really can maintain or even grow a career if you
have a truly flexible schedule. If you don't, it's impossible.
Maintenance is the best I feel like you can do
if you do not have him a flexible schedule. So
if you've got a work situation where it would work
remotely in any way, try to like prove it demanded,
show okay, how it's better or whatever, because it just
(32:10):
makes all the difference. At least for me it did.
And to have both of us, that's huge. But Ben
is amazing. He's been super supportive. He's really great. He'll
he'll make like today he came down and he's like,
I made a testimonial about vasectomies because it's Vasectomies World
v Sectomy Day, and so he post this like testimonial
about how awesome his vasectomy was and like how fast
(32:31):
he healed and how great it's been. And I mean,
he's just the best, and he like gets it, and
he's he's just such a good cheerleader for what I'm
working on. And I certainly couldn't have had a big
family without a partner that was interested in that. But
he's just been he just gets it, and he he
understands what the work of parenting is. Like, he gets it.
I don't have to explain it to him. I don't know.
(32:53):
He's terrific. And I'm sure part of that is like
we're home all the time. We've been home all the time.
He can see what renting is. And I should also
be clear, like we do lots of gendered stuff. He
always gets the gas. I end up doing the laundry,
Like there's stuff we do that's gendered. I don't mean
to say we split everything like exactly fifty fifty, but
(33:14):
in general, the workload of the house, the workload of parenting,
we've just always shared it. Yeah, but you're such a
creative person and you must always kind of be thinking
about what's next, Like what is your next creative pursuit?
Ben and I actually signed a contract for a parenting
book even before the abortion book, and then the abortion
(33:35):
books sort of like it felt the more timely things
with the same publisher, and they're like, actually, let's do
the abortion book first, because it's just like, well, you
have seen the news anyways, so so we'd like to
do the parenting book. I'm also were like still deep
in renovations, not in the house we're living in, but
the house in our backyard. And then there's like a
little cottage. So that's really fun for us. It's very
(33:57):
creative work. I love it. And then I keep feeling
like so in college and when I studied graphic design,
my goal was to be a textile designer. I had
this like I want to like walk into a stranger's
house someday and like, hey, I designed you know those
curtains or those sheets or I don't know, Like I
love that whole idea and I love textiles and I
loved all of it, and I have never done that.
(34:17):
I mean, like my senior project was like, here's my
collection of fabrics, and then like I've never Actually I'm
like that would be a creative for suit I would
love to do, which has nothing to do with anything
else here? But and then I I feel like I
pitched a new book just casually to my publisher, Like
what if winning more on menopause? How about a book
of you know, like or hey, how about these essays?
Or Twitter is going away? Could I compile all the
(34:39):
threads I've written into it book. I don't know. I'm
I'm constantly writing. Um. But yeah. When I think of
creative resuits, it's funny because my mind doesn't go to
writing necessarily. It always goes to like design stuff. Do
you want to go to the speed around now? Yes? Okay, Gabby?
What podcast are you listening to other than ours? Of course?
Of course listeners? And I really love Maintenance Face and
(35:01):
anything Michael Hobbs does. I love Michael Hobbs. What is
your morning routine? Okay? So we get up, drive the
kids to school. If it's cold, sometimes I want to walk,
and then I often go do something renovation e in
the morning, like before I've showered, put on my work
and do something like dusty and gross, then take my
shower and then um, then I'm on my laptop for
(35:22):
too many hours and phone and anyway, I am long
past morning. Now you travel a lot. What do you
do when you're on a plane. I will try to
sleep as much as I can, and if not that,
I play a lot of Sudoku or like solitaire, you know,
just like the dumbest games. Who leaves You Star Strick.
II still adore Martha Stewart, which I know, like we
(35:44):
don't see her in the news as much, and I've
gotten to meet her. I've gone an interviewer. I think
she's so freaking brilliant. She's just amazing. I love her
so much. Where will you go on your next vacation?
I want to go back to Italy, Like there's just
I've been a lot of times, but there's always more
and I love it and guys, the food and the
gelatto and I to come on like it's just never
a bad idea. What's your favorite beverage? Um? I love
(36:07):
root beer. I'm thinking of it because I miss I
can't get it here? Is that the most Mormon answer?
I love route beer and I want like a root
beer float, like that's what I want, Like, oh, it's
the best when I can't have root beer. Yeah, if
I need a fancier drink, I'll do lime Ebidders, which
someone taught me when we were in Australia, and I
(36:28):
love it so much and it was like, it sounds fancy,
but it's safe, safe for non drinkers. Thank you so much, Gab.
Thank you so fun to see your face. Is so
fun to talk to you miss being with you in person.
A mean, that was so much fun to have Gabby on.
I mean, we both have our own individual friendships with her,
(36:49):
and I think she's inspired both of us in different ways.
And I don't know, there's just something so energizing about
listening to her. She is one of the most magical
people I've ever met. I think it's hard to describe,
but the first time you're in a room with Gabby,
she's warm, she's real, and she's curious. And I think,
you know, that's the thing about Gabby is she's always learning. Like,
in some ways I'm surprised she wrote this wildly global
(37:12):
viral thread about abortion, and then in other ways, I
am completely not surprised that she did this, because she's
just always trying new things and voicing her opinion. And
I hope it gives other women out there the conviction
to try things and to try them publicly. Well, one
of the special things about Gabby is her confidence. I mean,
(37:32):
if every woman had the confidence Gabby has, the world
would be an entirely different place. That's right. I also
think Amy, what's so wild is like she didn't have
a wild sex life that led to this book, right,
Like she's kind of writing the book for something she
hasn't even experienced, and it almost lends kind of more credibility,
(37:55):
whereas normally you would think that lends less credibility. It
almost makes her more of an authority there. It's just
there's something about her that makes you stop and listen.
And I know you you recently when you you worked
with her recently on the last ALT summit, and you
said something to me about how calm she is no
matter what is going on, she has always calm, Like
I'm over here, like in the corner of freaking out
(38:17):
about something. I mean, we're putting on a thousand person
conference in New York and Gaby is just like it's fine,
it's okay, and always yeah, I'm just it was very remarkable,
but it is interesting, Sam, like, no, she didn't have
this wild sex life, but the concerns about contraception and
our ability to decide when we want to have children
remain with us long after we become mothers. And I think,
(38:40):
like that's one of the reasons I love her threats
so much, and even in talking to her today about it,
it's like, dealing with birth control is something we deal
with until we can't bear children anymore, right, unless our
partner has a vasectomy or you know, like and I
feel like this abortion debate gets cabined into this idea
that it isn't something that impacts mothers, but it impacts
(39:02):
mothers so much. But see, this is the thing, right,
And this is what was interesting and tricky about this
interview is like we could have done the entire interview
talking about the book, right because it is so controversial,
there's so much to stay around it. But really, the
next time we talk to Gabby, it definitely won't be
on this topic because she goes from topic to topic
and she's just as passionate and curious about each one.
(39:25):
And I think that's why I love this interview so
much too, because we really got to the heart of
her story. And you know, most of her interviews are
about the topics, and I think one of the really
fascinating things is just how she arrived here. Absolutely. I mean,
this is one of the things when I think about
Gabby that I always think is that I hope when
my four daughters grow up they have the confidence and
(39:48):
warmth that she has. Thanks for listening to What's Her
Story with Sam and Amy. We would appreciate it if
you leave her review wherever you get your podcast, and
of course connect with us on social media at What's
Her Story podcast. What's Her Story with Sam and Amy
is powered by my company, The Riveter at the Riveter
(40:09):
dot c o in Sam's company, park Place Payments at
park place payments dot com. Thanks to our producer Stacy
Parra and our male perspective, Blue Burns
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