November 28, 2023 • 42 mins
The overturning of Roe v. Wade in June of 2022 dealt a severe blow to women’s health care in the United States. Today, nearly half of states in the country ban or severely restrict abortion care. The ripple effects reach far wider: hospitals are shutting maternity wards, and OB-GYNs are leaving states that don’t allow them to provide essential care to their patients.
On today’s episode, Hillary talks to two leaders in the fight to provide the reproductive health care all women deserve.
Illinois governor J. B. Pritzker has helped shepherd into law some of the strongest abortion protections in the country, not only for his constituents but for anyone seeking abortion care, regardless of their ability to pay. He talks to Hillary about why this fight is his fight, and about the intended and unintended consequences of anti-choice legislators’ draconian laws.
Dr. Yashica Robinson, an OB-GYN and the medical director of the Alabama Women’s Center in Huntsville, has been on the front lines of reproductive health care in her state for decades. Throughout that time, state legislators and the Alabama Department of Health have thrown up roadblocks to prevent her patients–mostly low income women of color– from accessing the care they need and deserve. She shares with Hillary the work she’s doing to improve their outcomes, in the state with the highest maternal mortality rates in the country, including opening the state’s first birth center, and explains why she cannot give up hope in the face of relentless opposition.
You can read a full transcript HERE.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me both.
The Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade in
June of twenty twenty two has had far reaching consequences
for women's health, bodily autonomy, and even our lives across
the United States. Since that decision, wherever the right to
(00:25):
reproductive health, including abortion, has been on the ballot of states,
voters have turned out in record numbers to protect their
rights in places like Kansas, Kentucky, and most recently in
Ohio and Virginia, and we can expect to see more
of that in twenty twenty four. But in the many
(00:47):
states where access to abortion was already severely restricted, this
is causing an enormous amount of suffering because oftentimes a
pregnant woman's health and even her life could be at stake. Later,
I'll be talking with doctor Yeshika Robinson, a board certified
(01:09):
OBGYN and the medical director of the Alabama Women's Center
in Huntsville, Alabama, about the work she's doing to try
to improve outcomes for her patients. But first I'm talking
to someone who's fighting this battle on behalf of his
constituents in Illinois. JB. Prisker has served as governor of
(01:33):
Illinois since twenty nineteen. Since taking office, and in fact,
as you'll hear from him, since he was a kid,
he's understood the importance of supporting reproductive rights. As a
result of his leadership, Illinois now offers some of the
strongest protections in the country for doctors providing abortion care
(01:56):
and for women seeking abortions. I've been impressed by his
administration's proactive stance on many issues, from early childhood education
to climate change and so much else. But I especially
wanted to talk to him about his advocacy around reproductive
rights and justice. He and I have been friends a
(02:18):
long time, and he was pretty happy to talk to
me too, until he found out that our guests have
to wear headphones for the recording. I should also mention
that we recorded our conversation before the most recent elections
on November seventh. There she is, there, he is. This
(02:40):
is so exciting. How are you well.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I have to tell you I have like a firm rule,
which is I never wear headphones or hats because I
look like I mean, I'm immediately like Michael Ducaccus in
the tank, you know, with anything that I put on
my head. So I just want you to know you're
the only person that I would do this with.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I am so flattered, and I won't tell a soul,
I promise. Welcome to the show, Governor Pritzker. I could
talk to you about a million things. I'm so impressed
with the job that you are doing in my birth
state of Illinois. But today I want to talk to
you about abortion rights in the state you govern and
(03:23):
across the United States. And let's start by setting the
scene just a little bit for our listeners. Illinois currently
protects abortion rights until twenty four weeks, including Medicaid coverage
and requiring private insurance to cover abortions, but it is
(03:44):
surrounded by states where abortion is much more restricted or
literally almost entirely banned. How difficult was it for you
as governor to pass the expansive legislation that you did
and making Illinois this outlier in much of the country.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Well, we have some terrific champions of reproductive rights who've
been here for many years fighting the fight. So I
don't want to make this sound at all like well,
I became governor and all of a sudden we went
at the task of protecting women's health, but there was
still a lot to do. When I became governor, let
(04:27):
me give you a little bit of the history. Though
we had already passed a law that removed all the
triggers that existed in Illinois law that would have if
Roe v. Wade had been overturned, which at the time
it had not been. If it had been, we would
have become an anti choice state and reverted to the
(04:48):
old laws. In fact, we had the most restrictive anti
choice laws in the nation that were lurking behind the
pro choice laws that would have been taught out. So
back in twenty eighteen, when I was just a candidate,
the legislature passed a law and put it on the
governor's desk. Republican governor who said he was pro choice,
(05:11):
but also was going into an election, and so he
debated publicly like hamlet you know, wondering, you know, what
he should do. And finally, with a lot of pressure,
and I was among the people pressuring him, he signed
the bill. So that's terrific. But I think everybody understood
that this is not somebody who's going to be protecting
(05:32):
your rights in an aggressive way. So anyway, so he
lost I became governor, and then we passed probably the
most important and biggest piece of legislation that any state
can pass, and that's a Reproductive Health Act, where we
really said, we enshrined into law in Illinois that we're
going to protect a woman's right to make her own
decisions about her own body with her doctor, and that
(05:54):
is now the law of the state of Illinois. Now,
we've done a number of things since then to make
sure that we're expanding availability of abortion medication, availability of procedures,
and helping our abortion clinics to expand their capabilities. Partly
because all the states around us since Dobbs have essentially
(06:19):
restricted or eliminated a woman's right to choose. So we
have thousands and thousands of women who are coming across
the border just from the neighboring states and then from
as far away as Texas and Tennessee to Illinois because
we protect women here and we also provide logistics and
(06:40):
support for women who remember when Dobbs was decided, this
really took away a woman's right to choose for the
most vulnerable women, but not for wealthy women. Wealthy women
could figure this out, but if you're truly vulnerable. You
need a lot of help if you're in a state
that has taken away your rights. So we provide that
(07:02):
kind of help in Illinois because we know that you
don't know where you're going to stay overnight. Is there
somebody who could support your effort to provide you with
the dollars necessary just to have a hotel room? And
you need somebody friendly on the other end of a
phone line before you would ever make that journey, and
know that we're going to protect all the information about
(07:23):
you when you come to Illinois so that no other
state that's criminalized abortion can come after you. So that's
a lot that we've done since then. And I know
that's a long winded answer to your question, but very
proud of the work that we've done. And there's more
to do. And unfortunately, this is a battle that we
need to take and go national with because there are
(07:47):
just too many states where women can't access what our
fundamental rights.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I absolutely am curious about how this became such an
issue of concerned to you. You said you went to
your first pro choice rally in elementary school. What do
you remember about that experience.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Well, I'll be honest, my mother was an activist, yes,
and somebody who cared deeply about reproductive rights and LGBTQ rights,
and so I was raised in that environment. My father too,
but he passed away when I was very young. But
my mother after my father passed away, and I was
the youngest of three children. My older siblings were you know,
(08:33):
in high school or going into high school, so I
was the one who, you know, when my mother was
going to all of these political rallies or supporting candidates
or marching for reproductive rights, you know, she couldn't leave
me home alone, and so she would bring me along
with her. So you know, she may have had the
intent of really teaching me, but it may also just
(08:56):
have been, hey, there's nobody to watch you, so you're
coming along. But as time went on, you know, it
became very natural for me just to you know, to
stand up and express my belief in those rights and
couldn't how could you possibly live in a world where
people would restrict other people's rights like that? So yeah,
(09:17):
that's kind of how it started. And then my mother
passed away when I was seventeen, so it's just before
I went to college. So I feel like I was
picking up where she left off and my whole life
in a way, and certainly when I became governor, I
have kind of felt like her spirit is still there
with me as I approach these issues and people who
(09:41):
are you know, imposed upon by you know, right wing
zealots and trying to take their rights away, that I
have to be as strong and vigorous in defense of
those rights as she was.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Ah, that's such a great story. And you are continuing
her legacy in your public service. You know, when I
think about where we are, this didn't happen by accident.
I mean Roe v. Wade was decided in nineteen seventy three,
and literally from the moment it was there has been
an ongoing effort by a coalition, a political and religious coalition,
(10:18):
to make the issue of reproductive rights into an electoral issue,
a divisive electoral issue, and they've worked at it very
hard for fifty years. And I think a lot of
our listeners don't understand this because so many people were
shocked when Roe was overturned in the Dobbs decision, and
(10:40):
yet many of us, you and me included, were saying,
this is their plan. They want to overturn reproductive rights
as a national issue. But when you were both in
business and then beginning your political career and in between
supporting a lot of people, including me, who were running
for office, how did you see this issue developing and
(11:04):
what did you think about the game plan from the
other side.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Well, you know, this is one of these issues that
really always came down to who was elected president because
it's the Supreme Court ultimately that had the ability to
either strengthen Roe v. Wade or to take it away.
And unfortunately, as we all saw, Donald Trump was able
to appoint three justices three and all of them anti choice,
(11:33):
and there's no doubt he vetted them for that issue,
as he had pledged to his right wing backers. So
you know, for me, it was not much of a surprise.
I think we all understood that's what was going to happen.
But when it was leaked the decision, immediately we went
(11:54):
about preparing how were we going to react in Illinois,
What were the you know, the impacts on the people
of Illinois. Unfortunately, the Dobbs decision and particularly the Clarence
Thomas dissent, I think highlighted for everyone and for me that, oh,
(12:15):
this is going to go much further than just reproductive rights. Yes,
this is going to be about taking away your right
and all of our right to marry who we want
to marry, you know, how we're going to live our lives.
Are we going to have the ability to use contraception
and make decisions you know about reproduction broadly? And see
(12:37):
look at what's happened. You know, people think of abortion
as something that a single woman who's in a tough
situation decides to do because she doesn't feel like she
has any other choices. That's certainly the case for some,
but a lot of it is a medical decision by
a doctor with a patient and her spouse about you know,
(13:00):
the challenge is what you know, the actual medical situation
is for them and the threat to their lives or
the situation of the fetus. And so you know the
fact that Dobbs essentially opened up the possibility now that
we would stop a woman from you know, who has
an ectopic pregnancy, from you know, getting the medical care
(13:22):
that she needs. So that's just one effect, right, But
look at Idaho just to give you an example of
maybe an unintended effect. Now they've criminalized, essentially criminalized abortion
in Idaho. Obgyns in Idaho are getting up and leaving
because they're afraid for their practice, for their malpractice, insurance,
(13:42):
for their lives, and it's easier to go to a
state like Illinois where we're going to protect them. So
guess what's happening in Idaho. If you're having a baby,
and by the way, could be perfectly healthy, it's hard
to find it obgyn exactly right, or a place to go,
a hospital where you can give birth. So I mean,
(14:03):
this is now upon us, and I think it's it's
something that we should be hyper aware of the fact
that what the Republicans in the right wing has been
trying to do seemed like it was just about maybe
restricting the number of weeks, you know, in which you
could make the decision to have an abortion, But actually
(14:25):
it's about how a woman is going to live her life,
how a family is going to make decisions about their future.
So I'm very concerned, deeply concerned. I think this is
perhaps the most important issue. And we certainly can talk
about international relations and all the other challenges that we're
all facing domestically, but this is the issue that's the
(14:48):
most personal one that I think most people are going
to be voting on in twenty.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Twenty four, we're taking a quick break. Stay with us.
You've just started a nonprofit called Think Big America that
focuses on abortion rights ballot measures in other states. Tell
(15:18):
us a little bit about that. What is your plan?
How are you going to carry that out?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Well, as you know this is an issue you know
more broadly, that have been involved in nationally wherever I could,
as I could, so I think we all saw something
very unusual happen in Kansas, and that is that, as
it turns out that when people really have a choice
and opportunity to vote on this issue, that many people,
(15:46):
Republicans included, don't want the government making this decision for women.
And that's what the roughly sixty forty outcome in Kansas
in favor of protecting women's reproductive rights meant. And so
you know, I looked at that, and I was a
supporter of that effort personally and said, wow, there are
(16:09):
opportunities for us to turn the tide state by state.
It's more challenging than just doing it across the country.
But the Congress does not look like we're going to
be able to get that done. For now, and so
they're a referenda like the one in Ohio, the Vada, Arizona,
where there are varying referenda for constitutional amendments that would
(16:35):
protect reproductive rights. And so I created a Think Big
America which is a five oh one C four to
go and help push those referenda, to help educate the
public and to be clear, working with the local organizations.
It's not like we're parachuting in and you know and
just throwing a message up on television or something. You know,
(16:59):
each date is a little bit different, right, Each of
the populations a little bit different in how you address
the issue, and frankly, the referenda themselves are different. So
that's what Think Big America is really all about, is
supporting abortion rights, women's health in all fifty states, but
wherever there are real opportunities like today in Ohio, Nevada,
(17:20):
and Arizona, and we're looking at other states as well.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Do you think that your Republican colleagues have been surprised
by the political fallout? It's like the dog who caught
the car and they're not sure what to do with it.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Such a great expression to describe it, because that's exactly
what I think happened. I think that they fight, fight,
fight to get to where they are now, and they
realize this is hurting us politically, this is not what
the majority of voters in my state actually believe. And
so I've got to go, you know, do something to
(17:55):
make it seem like I'm not as draconian as my
previous position might have seen so many of them, you know,
as you can see, there's a you know, plethora of
ideas that have been put for how many weeks, you know,
what what should the laws be? And you know, it's
always been counter to what had been conservative Republican philosophy
(18:19):
to be all about taking away a woman's freedom to choose.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
And having the government come in and tell you what
you can or can't do exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I mean, it's so counter to what they you know,
it's like the discussion, you know about their pro life
but oh they're for the death penalty. So I really
think they have been surprised.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, well, do you think the Republican Party will have
to reconsider its stance as it goes into the you know,
the twenty twenty four election season.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It already is, as you know, there were people who
said no abortion, even cases of rape or incest. And
then you have these same people coming out and saying, well,
maybe of fifteen weeks, maybe twelve week, maybe six weeks,
you know, because they're all searching for, you know, where
is that middle ground where I can retain my conservative
anti choice backers and not you know, push away all
(19:15):
the others. And yeah, so they are reconsidering, trying to
figure it out. But the truth is that party is
controlled by at the very core people who essentially do
not want women to have any choices.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Absolutely, and you know, the draconian measures that some have
supported now are coming home to roost. As you rightly
pointed out, women who pregnancy has caused very serious, you know,
health challenges to them because of you know, some condition
(19:50):
that develops like an acoptic pregnancy or maybe sepsis, or
they learn that you know, the child won't live long
or there may be a heartbeat, but they're there's no
brain development. And I mean, these horrible wrenching personal decisions
being thrust into the public arena, legislators deciding whether or
(20:12):
not you live or die, or how sick you have
to be. The sepsis has to set in before you're
going to get treatment in the local hospital in Texas,
as happened with one woman, or you have to carry
this fetus to term despite the fact, knowing that it
will die shortly after, so you have to prolong your
and its agony. I mean, it's horrific. It's the handmaid's tail. Governor.
(20:36):
It is not just about reproductive rights, but about women's autonomy,
women's independence, women's equality, and that's what makes it so dangerous,
and we have to turn the tide against that. And
I so appreciate you know, you're recognizing it that, yeah,
it's a big issue reproductive rights, but it's part of
(20:57):
a much larger worldview that some on the Republican side
would like to impose on the rest of us.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Well, and you know, you were talking about the situations
that are you know, in a family that's just trying
to have a child. Let's also talk about the you know,
the ten year old who was raped, who had to
cross over two borders in order to get to a
place where they could actually have an abortion. No parent
(21:26):
wants that ten year old child to carry a rapist's baby.
You know that that abortion, you know, ought to be
available anywhere, and I just the unintended consequences, as you
said earlier, just are you know, long and not fully
understood even now. It's also again counter to everything that
(21:51):
the former Republican Party before it became a maga Republican Party,
believed there were anti choice you know, Republicans. But I'm
just saying, if you're a conservative, your essential belief is
that you know the government shouldn't be interfering with your
personal choices. And yet this is all they're doing now.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
So for our listeners, Governor, you know, what can they
do to protect and expand access to the full range
of reproductive rights. If they're living in a state like yours,
maybe they feel like, oh, okay, we're going to be fine,
But it really matters who they elect to the state legislature.
It really matters who they send to Congress, even from
(22:34):
a blue state like Illinois. What would you tell all
of our listeners to do in their own ways to
try to protect reproductive rights.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Well, first of all, have faith. You know, Dobbs happened,
but there will be another endeavor to counter it. And
at the federal level, it ought to be a national
abortion rights law. But in your own home state, even
if you're in an anti choice state, you know, I
can just tell you, for many, many, many years, there
(23:04):
were gun safety advocates. Just to give you an example
of another issue where many people in some states felt
like they were all alone and couldn't get anything done
through their state legislature. Here in Illinois, that was the case.
You know, we always had the NRA here in Illinois
fighting against any kind of gun safety legislation. And after years,
(23:27):
but you know, faith that lots of people put in,
including myself. You know, we have universal background checks, we
have banned assault weapons, and so on. And I give
you those examples because you know, even if it feels
like you live in a state where everybody around you
seems like they're anti choice, the truth is you can
educate people and very importantly vote, vote, vote.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
A thousand percent, and don't ever ever get complacent about
your vote. We have to elect people like yourself governor
who could take on the take on gun violence, expand
reproductive rights, two of the hottest button issues in American politics.
You just got up every day and said we're going
to make it safer for the people of Illinois, and
(24:14):
then you got results. But you got results because you
had a legislature you could work with, and you got
results because you had you know, that kind of you
know support in the state.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
And not every Democrat is you know, is fully pro choice.
Not every Democrat is fully pro gun safety. But you
know there are enough and enough you know understanding of
the issue that you can get it done. So you can,
you know, progress can be made, especially when I think
people understand that their electoral future.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Is at stake exactly, and their personal rights, their choices,
their freedoms are at stake. And I couldn't be you know,
more adamant about that coming up to the twenty twenty
four election, and You're going to be hosting the dum
Cretic Convention in Chicago, and I'm excited about that, but
(25:05):
I'm especially excited, Governor, by your leadership and by your
vision and by your tenacity and your results. Thank you
very very much for talking with me today.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Thank you, Hillary. I admire you so much, and thank you.
The compliment has really taken to heart.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Thanks JAV. For more information on Governor Pritzker's work to
bolster reproductive health access and to combat extremism throughout our country,
go to Thinkbigamerica dot com. While Governor Pritzker is tackling
(25:45):
the reproductive health crisis at a policy level. My next
guest is someone on the front lines providing obstetric and
gynecological care for her patients at the Alabama Women's Center
for a decade. During that time, she and other Alabama
(26:05):
health care providers have faced an onslaught of regulations from
the state legislature and the Alabama Department of Health that
have absolutely nothing to do with practicing medicine or protecting patients,
but everything to do was promoting their anti choice agenda.
(26:25):
She and her staff have faced ongoing threats and harassment
just for doing their jobs. Since the Dobbs decision overturned
the federal right to abortion care, Doctor Robinson no longer
performs abortions in her state, which has one of the
strictest bands in the country, but she hasn't walked away
(26:47):
or given up on her patients. In fact, she's now
in the process of opening Alabama's first birthing center to
give patients more options during pregnancy and delivery. But even
these efforts to improve outcomes in a state which has
such high rates of infant and maternal mortality have been
(27:10):
met with resistance from the Alabama Department of Public Health.
I really admired doctor Robinson's tireless work to provide a
high standard of care to all of her patients despite
the obstacles she faces, and I was delighted to have
the chance to speak with her. I began by asking
(27:31):
her to tell me about her clinic and what happens
there on a typical day.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I am the owner of Alabama Women's Wellness Center PC.
It's a private obstetrics and gynecology practice here in Huntsville, Alabama.
We are a small practice. There is two physician providers
in that practice, and we do everything the full gamut
of women's health care. So we deliver babies, and up
until Jina last year, we were also forming all of
(28:01):
the abortion services here in North Alabama, but we had
patients at the time that was traveling here from as
far away as Texas when road was overturned in June.
We also were providing training, so we were training residents
and also fellows. We also train midwives in our facility,
and we were training duels in our facility. As far
(28:22):
as what my typical day looks like, I'm still doing
all of those things except abortion care. We are not
providing any abortion services at this time. We're still delivering
lots of babies, and we're still doing all of the
advocacy work that we were doing before, trying to make
sure that our patients have access to everything that other
(28:45):
states have and even more just so that they can
really exercise their full autonomy and be able to access
the resources that are best for them.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Maybe doctor, you could describe for our listeners, why do
you believe that abortion care is part of the wider
services that should be available for women when it comes
to reproductive health.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
I mean, abortion care is one of those things that
you know as a women's health service provider, is part
of our training, is part of our scope of practice.
When you know that people are going to need different
things during pregnancy. As a women's health provider, abortion services
is one of those. People are going to have babies,
they're going to have miscarriages, and sometimes they may need
(29:30):
to choose abortion for various reasons.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
In fact, you took that explanation to Congress because you
testified in the weeks after the dabs' decision was leaked,
but before it was formally enacted about the importance of
safe and legal abortion access. That must have been a
stressful experience testifying before Congress. How did you find.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
That it was a very stressful experience. I never thought
that as a physician that I would end up being
considered a leader and an advocate in this area. But
I take my responsibilities to my patients very seriously. And
when you understand how important having access to the full
spectrum of options is, then despite the fear that I had,
(30:23):
I really felt that it was important for me to
step outside of that and do what was best for
my patients.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Well, that's spoken like a true physician who understands her
obligations to care for the people who seek her expertise.
And in fact, you do not come from a family
of doctors, And on paper one might say, wow, how
did she become a doctor? Could you talk about what
(30:50):
led you to do this work? And you know some
of the obstacles you yourself had to overcome in order
to be this very strong defender of your painations and
their right to healthcare.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
You're right, I didn't come from a family of doctors,
but I think that my journey to becoming a physician
is still deeply rooted in my family and my upbringing.
I often tell my children, now, you know, I repeat
what my mom said to me. If you're going to
do something, do it right, or don't do it at all.
And so I was a teen mom, I made the
(31:24):
decision that I wanted to become a health care provider
following just the experience that I had as a teen mom.
Some of the people that I encountered, and I know
how much negative stigma there is around teen pregnancy, and
then I was that girl. But the health care providers
(31:45):
that cared for me, they encouraged me despite the fact
that there were naysayers. They still treated me with respect,
and they still told me that I could achieve my dreams.
And that made a difference to me. And so I
made the decision that I wanted to do that and
be that person for somebody else.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
That's terrific. Well, you know, you have consistently advocated for
your patients. You know many of them are young black women.
They are, you know, coming to you for the care
and support they need. You want to make sure that
they get that they're safe, they're respected. But how are
(32:25):
the young women really women of all ages, but particularly
young women feeling about you know what's going on now
in Alabama and so many other states around the country
where you know, they are denied the full range of
care and services that had been provided before.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
I will tell you my patient population. The majority of
the people I care for are people of color. The
majority of our patients are also low income, and they
many of them do receive their health care services through Medicaid.
We do know that when services become scarce, when they're
(33:03):
difficult to access, those are the people. The most vulnerable
people are the ones that suffer the most. Universally, my
patients express fear. Many of them are very very confused,
some are angry and frustrated. I mean, this is just
a really devastating situation that we've been put in in
(33:24):
this area, and it's really unfortunate that people do didn't
realize how much it was going to affect them until
it happened and it was too late.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I think that's a very sad but accurate observation. A
lot of people did not believe it. Whatever happen. And
we know that maternal mortality rates are higher nationwide for
black women than for white women. We know that in
many parts of the South, infant mortality rates are much
(33:57):
higher than they are elsewhere. How have you seen that
play out in your own practice.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Alabama right now is in the middle of a maternal
health crisis. You know, thirty seven percent of the counties
here in Alabama are what we call maternity deserts. That
means that they do not have providers who are able
to provide prenatal care and delivery services. And this is
(34:24):
particularly devastating for the patients that I care for. Like
I said, many of my patients are people of color
and they are low income. Being able to access abortion care,
having access to quality maternity care, all of this can
make the difference between life and death, whether they end
up dying from pregnancy or complications of childbirth.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
This is what I find so frustrating because you're absolutely right,
and you're describing a reality that we are seeing across
the country. And it's hard breaking that we don't have
the best prenatal the best labor and delivery, the best
post birth care in the world. I mean, that's what
(35:10):
we should have. That's what every person deserves in terms
of the quality of healthcare. And I know that's one
of the reasons why you're trying to open a birth center.
What does that mean to you and to the community
to have that kind of service available.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
What we are working to do right now is to
open up the first freestanding birth center in North Alabama,
and that is a service that our community does not
have access to. We don't have birth centers in Alabama.
But there are a lot of good studies that show
that when patients are able to access we're free lick care,
(35:50):
that it can improve outcomes. And we also know that
in maternity health care deserts, midwives can bring a lot
of value and that's going to be one of the
answers to these rural areas that don't have hospitals that
currently provide obstetrical services. I mean, I'm not in a
rural area. I'm about an hour and fifteen minutes from Birmingham, Alabama,
(36:14):
which is a very large city here in Alabama, and
we have two more hospitals that just announced that this
month they will shut down their delivery services.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
We'll be right back. You know, you would think everyone
could get behind birth centers, places where women could go
to have safe, healthy deliveries that would improve the outcome
(36:51):
for them and their babies, But in fact, I heard
that the Alabama Department of Health has gone to great
lengths to block your and others' efforts to open first centers.
How do you make sense of that?
Speaker 3 (37:05):
There is no way to make sense of what just
does not make sense. The only thing that I see
is that this is just another area of control where
the people empower are exercising their control over women's reproductive
health choices, where people who are pregnant are not able
(37:26):
once again to make decisions about what's based for them
based off of their values, their resources, and their desires
and their belief system.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Well, I certainly agree with that. I have to ask you,
despite everything you've gone through and how you've had to
really just hold yourself together to keep going to do
what you know is needed, what gives you hope at
this current time.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
What gives me hope is knowing that there are people
out there that care that have not written the state
of Alabama off. We have a great team of attorneys
that was able to come and help us in our
efforts to be able to get the birth center open.
That helps to keep my head in the game my patients.
(38:15):
They also inspire me. I mean, I do ask myself
on some days like what am I doing? This is crazy?
Like everything that you do, everything should not be a struggle.
But when people come through my doors and they are
asking me when is the birth center going to open,
it makes it hard for me to give up and
just be like, you know what, this is not worth
(38:36):
doing it because I really care about them. And then
when you know what the studies show, when you know
that the data says that this will improve outcomes for
women that look like me, that makes a big difference
to me. It makes me want to work harder and
continue to do it, even though there are lots of
days that are very hard.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Well, there are many of us, and after this episode
runs there work there be many many more doctor who
are on your side, encouraging you. So grateful that you
haven't given up, that you're still there in the arena
doing everything you can to provide quality, affordable, accessible care
(39:17):
to your patients. Doctor Robinson, I'm so grateful to you
and so admiring of your dedication to do what you
know is right for your patients, and I just wish
you and your family the very very best going forward.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
If you'd like to support the important work doctor Robinson
is doing. Go to Alabama Birthcenter dot com for more
information and links to donate. When I think about the
state of women's reproductive rights in this country and the
backslide experienced, I get motivated to do something about it
(40:04):
because we can't give up, not with people like doctor
Robinson and Governor Pritzker and so many others who are
out there doing whatever they can. So please get involved,
whether it's fighting to keep hospitals and obgyn services open,
working to get abortion protections on ballots in your states,
(40:26):
or using the power of your vote in November to
ensure that we elect leaders who will fight for women
and our reproductive rights. And if you or someone you
know is seeking reproductive healthcare, including abortion care, call the
National Abortion Hotline at one eight hundred seven seven to
(40:49):
two ninety one hundred, or check out the website plan C.
It's an excellent online resource that provides state by state information.
And remember, abortion care is healthcare and it will be
on every ballot in the upcoming elections because of who
(41:12):
we are voting to elect. So let's keep going. Let's
elect people who will fight for reproductive justice and give
women the full reproductive rights we are entitled to You
(41:32):
and Me Both is brought to you by iHeart Podcasts.
We're produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo,
with help from Huma Abadeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz,
Laura Olin, Lona Valmoorro and Lily Weber. Our engineer is
(41:55):
Zach McNeice, and the original music is by Forrest Gray.
Like You and Me Both, tell someone else about it
And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you
waiting for? You can subscribe to You and Me Both
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next
(42:17):
week
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me both.
The Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade in
June of twenty twenty two has had far reaching consequences
for women's health, bodily autonomy, and even our lives across
the United States. Since that decision, wherever the right to
(00:25):
reproductive health, including abortion, has been on the ballot of states,
voters have turned out in record numbers to protect their
rights in places like Kansas, Kentucky, and most recently in
Ohio and Virginia, and we can expect to see more
of that in twenty twenty four. But in the many
(00:47):
states where access to abortion was already severely restricted, this
is causing an enormous amount of suffering because oftentimes a
pregnant woman's health and even her life could be at stake. Later,
I'll be talking with doctor Yeshika Robinson, a board certified
(01:09):
OBGYN and the medical director of the Alabama Women's Center
in Huntsville, Alabama, about the work she's doing to try
to improve outcomes for her patients. But first I'm talking
to someone who's fighting this battle on behalf of his
constituents in Illinois. JB. Prisker has served as governor of
(01:33):
Illinois since twenty nineteen. Since taking office, and in fact,
as you'll hear from him, since he was a kid,
he's understood the importance of supporting reproductive rights. As a
result of his leadership, Illinois now offers some of the
strongest protections in the country for doctors providing abortion care
(01:56):
and for women seeking abortions. I've been impressed by his
administration's proactive stance on many issues, from early childhood education
to climate change and so much else. But I especially
wanted to talk to him about his advocacy around reproductive
rights and justice. He and I have been friends a
(02:18):
long time, and he was pretty happy to talk to
me too, until he found out that our guests have
to wear headphones for the recording. I should also mention
that we recorded our conversation before the most recent elections
on November seventh. There she is, there, he is. This
(02:40):
is so exciting. How are you well.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I have to tell you I have like a firm rule,
which is I never wear headphones or hats because I
look like I mean, I'm immediately like Michael Ducaccus in
the tank, you know, with anything that I put on
my head. So I just want you to know you're
the only person that I would do this with.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I am so flattered, and I won't tell a soul,
I promise. Welcome to the show, Governor Pritzker. I could
talk to you about a million things. I'm so impressed
with the job that you are doing in my birth
state of Illinois. But today I want to talk to
you about abortion rights in the state you govern and
(03:23):
across the United States. And let's start by setting the
scene just a little bit for our listeners. Illinois currently
protects abortion rights until twenty four weeks, including Medicaid coverage
and requiring private insurance to cover abortions, but it is
(03:44):
surrounded by states where abortion is much more restricted or
literally almost entirely banned. How difficult was it for you
as governor to pass the expansive legislation that you did
and making Illinois this outlier in much of the country.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Well, we have some terrific champions of reproductive rights who've
been here for many years fighting the fight. So I
don't want to make this sound at all like well,
I became governor and all of a sudden we went
at the task of protecting women's health, but there was
still a lot to do. When I became governor, let
(04:27):
me give you a little bit of the history. Though
we had already passed a law that removed all the
triggers that existed in Illinois law that would have if
Roe v. Wade had been overturned, which at the time
it had not been. If it had been, we would
have become an anti choice state and reverted to the
(04:48):
old laws. In fact, we had the most restrictive anti
choice laws in the nation that were lurking behind the
pro choice laws that would have been taught out. So
back in twenty eighteen, when I was just a candidate,
the legislature passed a law and put it on the
governor's desk. Republican governor who said he was pro choice,
(05:11):
but also was going into an election, and so he
debated publicly like hamlet you know, wondering, you know, what
he should do. And finally, with a lot of pressure,
and I was among the people pressuring him, he signed
the bill. So that's terrific. But I think everybody understood
that this is not somebody who's going to be protecting
(05:32):
your rights in an aggressive way. So anyway, so he
lost I became governor, and then we passed probably the
most important and biggest piece of legislation that any state
can pass, and that's a Reproductive Health Act, where we
really said, we enshrined into law in Illinois that we're
going to protect a woman's right to make her own
decisions about her own body with her doctor, and that
(05:54):
is now the law of the state of Illinois. Now,
we've done a number of things since then to make
sure that we're expanding availability of abortion medication, availability of procedures,
and helping our abortion clinics to expand their capabilities. Partly
because all the states around us since Dobbs have essentially
(06:19):
restricted or eliminated a woman's right to choose. So we
have thousands and thousands of women who are coming across
the border just from the neighboring states and then from
as far away as Texas and Tennessee to Illinois because
we protect women here and we also provide logistics and
(06:40):
support for women who remember when Dobbs was decided, this
really took away a woman's right to choose for the
most vulnerable women, but not for wealthy women. Wealthy women
could figure this out, but if you're truly vulnerable. You
need a lot of help if you're in a state
that has taken away your rights. So we provide that
(07:02):
kind of help in Illinois because we know that you
don't know where you're going to stay overnight. Is there
somebody who could support your effort to provide you with
the dollars necessary just to have a hotel room? And
you need somebody friendly on the other end of a
phone line before you would ever make that journey, and
know that we're going to protect all the information about
(07:23):
you when you come to Illinois so that no other
state that's criminalized abortion can come after you. So that's
a lot that we've done since then. And I know
that's a long winded answer to your question, but very
proud of the work that we've done. And there's more
to do. And unfortunately, this is a battle that we
need to take and go national with because there are
(07:47):
just too many states where women can't access what our
fundamental rights.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I absolutely am curious about how this became such an
issue of concerned to you. You said you went to
your first pro choice rally in elementary school. What do
you remember about that experience.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Well, I'll be honest, my mother was an activist, yes,
and somebody who cared deeply about reproductive rights and LGBTQ rights,
and so I was raised in that environment. My father too,
but he passed away when I was very young. But
my mother after my father passed away, and I was
the youngest of three children. My older siblings were you know,
(08:33):
in high school or going into high school, so I
was the one who, you know, when my mother was
going to all of these political rallies or supporting candidates
or marching for reproductive rights, you know, she couldn't leave
me home alone, and so she would bring me along
with her. So you know, she may have had the
intent of really teaching me, but it may also just
(08:56):
have been, hey, there's nobody to watch you, so you're
coming along. But as time went on, you know, it
became very natural for me just to you know, to
stand up and express my belief in those rights and
couldn't how could you possibly live in a world where
people would restrict other people's rights like that? So yeah,
(09:17):
that's kind of how it started. And then my mother
passed away when I was seventeen, so it's just before
I went to college. So I feel like I was
picking up where she left off and my whole life
in a way, and certainly when I became governor, I
have kind of felt like her spirit is still there
with me as I approach these issues and people who
(09:41):
are you know, imposed upon by you know, right wing
zealots and trying to take their rights away, that I
have to be as strong and vigorous in defense of
those rights as she was.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Ah, that's such a great story. And you are continuing
her legacy in your public service. You know, when I
think about where we are, this didn't happen by accident.
I mean Roe v. Wade was decided in nineteen seventy three,
and literally from the moment it was there has been
an ongoing effort by a coalition, a political and religious coalition,
(10:18):
to make the issue of reproductive rights into an electoral issue,
a divisive electoral issue, and they've worked at it very
hard for fifty years. And I think a lot of
our listeners don't understand this because so many people were
shocked when Roe was overturned in the Dobbs decision, and
(10:40):
yet many of us, you and me included, were saying,
this is their plan. They want to overturn reproductive rights
as a national issue. But when you were both in
business and then beginning your political career and in between
supporting a lot of people, including me, who were running
for office, how did you see this issue developing and
(11:04):
what did you think about the game plan from the
other side.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Well, you know, this is one of these issues that
really always came down to who was elected president because
it's the Supreme Court ultimately that had the ability to
either strengthen Roe v. Wade or to take it away.
And unfortunately, as we all saw, Donald Trump was able
to appoint three justices three and all of them anti choice,
(11:33):
and there's no doubt he vetted them for that issue,
as he had pledged to his right wing backers. So
you know, for me, it was not much of a surprise.
I think we all understood that's what was going to happen.
But when it was leaked the decision, immediately we went
(11:54):
about preparing how were we going to react in Illinois,
What were the you know, the impacts on the people
of Illinois. Unfortunately, the Dobbs decision and particularly the Clarence
Thomas dissent, I think highlighted for everyone and for me that, oh,
(12:15):
this is going to go much further than just reproductive rights. Yes,
this is going to be about taking away your right
and all of our right to marry who we want
to marry, you know, how we're going to live our lives.
Are we going to have the ability to use contraception
and make decisions you know about reproduction broadly? And see
(12:37):
look at what's happened. You know, people think of abortion
as something that a single woman who's in a tough
situation decides to do because she doesn't feel like she
has any other choices. That's certainly the case for some,
but a lot of it is a medical decision by
a doctor with a patient and her spouse about you know,
(13:00):
the challenge is what you know, the actual medical situation
is for them and the threat to their lives or
the situation of the fetus. And so you know the
fact that Dobbs essentially opened up the possibility now that
we would stop a woman from you know, who has
an ectopic pregnancy, from you know, getting the medical care
(13:22):
that she needs. So that's just one effect, right, But
look at Idaho just to give you an example of
maybe an unintended effect. Now they've criminalized, essentially criminalized abortion
in Idaho. Obgyns in Idaho are getting up and leaving
because they're afraid for their practice, for their malpractice, insurance,
(13:42):
for their lives, and it's easier to go to a
state like Illinois where we're going to protect them. So
guess what's happening in Idaho. If you're having a baby,
and by the way, could be perfectly healthy, it's hard
to find it obgyn exactly right, or a place to go,
a hospital where you can give birth. So I mean,
(14:03):
this is now upon us, and I think it's it's
something that we should be hyper aware of the fact
that what the Republicans in the right wing has been
trying to do seemed like it was just about maybe
restricting the number of weeks, you know, in which you
could make the decision to have an abortion, But actually
(14:25):
it's about how a woman is going to live her life,
how a family is going to make decisions about their future.
So I'm very concerned, deeply concerned. I think this is
perhaps the most important issue. And we certainly can talk
about international relations and all the other challenges that we're
all facing domestically, but this is the issue that's the
(14:48):
most personal one that I think most people are going
to be voting on in twenty.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Twenty four, we're taking a quick break. Stay with us.
You've just started a nonprofit called Think Big America that
focuses on abortion rights ballot measures in other states. Tell
(15:18):
us a little bit about that. What is your plan?
How are you going to carry that out?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Well, as you know this is an issue you know
more broadly, that have been involved in nationally wherever I could,
as I could, so I think we all saw something
very unusual happen in Kansas, and that is that, as
it turns out that when people really have a choice
and opportunity to vote on this issue, that many people,
(15:46):
Republicans included, don't want the government making this decision for women.
And that's what the roughly sixty forty outcome in Kansas
in favor of protecting women's reproductive rights meant. And so
you know, I looked at that, and I was a
supporter of that effort personally and said, wow, there are
(16:09):
opportunities for us to turn the tide state by state.
It's more challenging than just doing it across the country.
But the Congress does not look like we're going to
be able to get that done. For now, and so
they're a referenda like the one in Ohio, the Vada, Arizona,
where there are varying referenda for constitutional amendments that would
(16:35):
protect reproductive rights. And so I created a Think Big
America which is a five oh one C four to
go and help push those referenda, to help educate the
public and to be clear, working with the local organizations.
It's not like we're parachuting in and you know and
just throwing a message up on television or something. You know,
(16:59):
each date is a little bit different, right, Each of
the populations a little bit different in how you address
the issue, and frankly, the referenda themselves are different. So
that's what Think Big America is really all about, is
supporting abortion rights, women's health in all fifty states, but
wherever there are real opportunities like today in Ohio, Nevada,
(17:20):
and Arizona, and we're looking at other states as well.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Do you think that your Republican colleagues have been surprised
by the political fallout? It's like the dog who caught
the car and they're not sure what to do with it.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Such a great expression to describe it, because that's exactly
what I think happened. I think that they fight, fight,
fight to get to where they are now, and they
realize this is hurting us politically, this is not what
the majority of voters in my state actually believe. And
so I've got to go, you know, do something to
(17:55):
make it seem like I'm not as draconian as my
previous position might have seen so many of them, you know,
as you can see, there's a you know, plethora of
ideas that have been put for how many weeks, you know,
what what should the laws be? And you know, it's
always been counter to what had been conservative Republican philosophy
(18:19):
to be all about taking away a woman's freedom to choose.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
And having the government come in and tell you what
you can or can't do exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I mean, it's so counter to what they you know,
it's like the discussion, you know about their pro life
but oh they're for the death penalty. So I really
think they have been surprised.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, well, do you think the Republican Party will have
to reconsider its stance as it goes into the you know,
the twenty twenty four election season.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
It already is, as you know, there were people who
said no abortion, even cases of rape or incest. And
then you have these same people coming out and saying, well,
maybe of fifteen weeks, maybe twelve week, maybe six weeks,
you know, because they're all searching for, you know, where
is that middle ground where I can retain my conservative
anti choice backers and not you know, push away all
(19:15):
the others. And yeah, so they are reconsidering, trying to
figure it out. But the truth is that party is
controlled by at the very core people who essentially do
not want women to have any choices.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Absolutely, and you know, the draconian measures that some have
supported now are coming home to roost. As you rightly
pointed out, women who pregnancy has caused very serious, you know,
health challenges to them because of you know, some condition
(19:50):
that develops like an acoptic pregnancy or maybe sepsis, or
they learn that you know, the child won't live long
or there may be a heartbeat, but they're there's no
brain development. And I mean, these horrible wrenching personal decisions
being thrust into the public arena, legislators deciding whether or
(20:12):
not you live or die, or how sick you have
to be. The sepsis has to set in before you're
going to get treatment in the local hospital in Texas,
as happened with one woman, or you have to carry
this fetus to term despite the fact, knowing that it
will die shortly after, so you have to prolong your
and its agony. I mean, it's horrific. It's the handmaid's tail. Governor.
(20:36):
It is not just about reproductive rights, but about women's autonomy,
women's independence, women's equality, and that's what makes it so dangerous,
and we have to turn the tide against that. And
I so appreciate you know, you're recognizing it that, yeah,
it's a big issue reproductive rights, but it's part of
(20:57):
a much larger worldview that some on the Republican side
would like to impose on the rest of us.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Well, and you know, you were talking about the situations
that are you know, in a family that's just trying
to have a child. Let's also talk about the you know,
the ten year old who was raped, who had to
cross over two borders in order to get to a
place where they could actually have an abortion. No parent
(21:26):
wants that ten year old child to carry a rapist's baby.
You know that that abortion, you know, ought to be
available anywhere, and I just the unintended consequences, as you
said earlier, just are you know, long and not fully
understood even now. It's also again counter to everything that
(21:51):
the former Republican Party before it became a maga Republican Party,
believed there were anti choice you know, Republicans. But I'm
just saying, if you're a conservative, your essential belief is
that you know the government shouldn't be interfering with your
personal choices. And yet this is all they're doing now.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
So for our listeners, Governor, you know, what can they
do to protect and expand access to the full range
of reproductive rights. If they're living in a state like yours,
maybe they feel like, oh, okay, we're going to be fine,
But it really matters who they elect to the state legislature.
It really matters who they send to Congress, even from
(22:34):
a blue state like Illinois. What would you tell all
of our listeners to do in their own ways to
try to protect reproductive rights.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Well, first of all, have faith. You know, Dobbs happened,
but there will be another endeavor to counter it. And
at the federal level, it ought to be a national
abortion rights law. But in your own home state, even
if you're in an anti choice state, you know, I
can just tell you, for many, many, many years, there
(23:04):
were gun safety advocates. Just to give you an example
of another issue where many people in some states felt
like they were all alone and couldn't get anything done
through their state legislature. Here in Illinois, that was the case.
You know, we always had the NRA here in Illinois
fighting against any kind of gun safety legislation. And after years,
(23:27):
but you know, faith that lots of people put in,
including myself. You know, we have universal background checks, we
have banned assault weapons, and so on. And I give
you those examples because you know, even if it feels
like you live in a state where everybody around you
seems like they're anti choice, the truth is you can
educate people and very importantly vote, vote, vote.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
A thousand percent, and don't ever ever get complacent about
your vote. We have to elect people like yourself governor
who could take on the take on gun violence, expand
reproductive rights, two of the hottest button issues in American politics.
You just got up every day and said we're going
to make it safer for the people of Illinois, and
(24:14):
then you got results. But you got results because you
had a legislature you could work with, and you got
results because you had you know, that kind of you
know support in the state.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
And not every Democrat is you know, is fully pro choice.
Not every Democrat is fully pro gun safety. But you
know there are enough and enough you know understanding of
the issue that you can get it done. So you can,
you know, progress can be made, especially when I think
people understand that their electoral future.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Is at stake exactly, and their personal rights, their choices,
their freedoms are at stake. And I couldn't be you know,
more adamant about that coming up to the twenty twenty
four election, and You're going to be hosting the dum
Cretic Convention in Chicago, and I'm excited about that, but
(25:05):
I'm especially excited, Governor, by your leadership and by your
vision and by your tenacity and your results. Thank you
very very much for talking with me today.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Thank you, Hillary. I admire you so much, and thank you.
The compliment has really taken to heart.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Thanks JAV. For more information on Governor Pritzker's work to
bolster reproductive health access and to combat extremism throughout our country,
go to Thinkbigamerica dot com. While Governor Pritzker is tackling
(25:45):
the reproductive health crisis at a policy level. My next
guest is someone on the front lines providing obstetric and
gynecological care for her patients at the Alabama Women's Center
for a decade. During that time, she and other Alabama
(26:05):
health care providers have faced an onslaught of regulations from
the state legislature and the Alabama Department of Health that
have absolutely nothing to do with practicing medicine or protecting patients,
but everything to do was promoting their anti choice agenda.
(26:25):
She and her staff have faced ongoing threats and harassment
just for doing their jobs. Since the Dobbs decision overturned
the federal right to abortion care, Doctor Robinson no longer
performs abortions in her state, which has one of the
strictest bands in the country, but she hasn't walked away
(26:47):
or given up on her patients. In fact, she's now
in the process of opening Alabama's first birthing center to
give patients more options during pregnancy and delivery. But even
these efforts to improve outcomes in a state which has
such high rates of infant and maternal mortality have been
(27:10):
met with resistance from the Alabama Department of Public Health.
I really admired doctor Robinson's tireless work to provide a
high standard of care to all of her patients despite
the obstacles she faces, and I was delighted to have
the chance to speak with her. I began by asking
(27:31):
her to tell me about her clinic and what happens
there on a typical day.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
I am the owner of Alabama Women's Wellness Center PC.
It's a private obstetrics and gynecology practice here in Huntsville, Alabama.
We are a small practice. There is two physician providers
in that practice, and we do everything the full gamut
of women's health care. So we deliver babies, and up
until Jina last year, we were also forming all of
(28:01):
the abortion services here in North Alabama, but we had
patients at the time that was traveling here from as
far away as Texas when road was overturned in June.
We also were providing training, so we were training residents
and also fellows. We also train midwives in our facility,
and we were training duels in our facility. As far
(28:22):
as what my typical day looks like, I'm still doing
all of those things except abortion care. We are not
providing any abortion services at this time. We're still delivering
lots of babies, and we're still doing all of the
advocacy work that we were doing before, trying to make
sure that our patients have access to everything that other
(28:45):
states have and even more just so that they can
really exercise their full autonomy and be able to access
the resources that are best for them.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Maybe doctor, you could describe for our listeners, why do
you believe that abortion care is part of the wider
services that should be available for women when it comes
to reproductive health.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
I mean, abortion care is one of those things that
you know as a women's health service provider, is part
of our training, is part of our scope of practice.
When you know that people are going to need different
things during pregnancy. As a women's health provider, abortion services
is one of those. People are going to have babies,
they're going to have miscarriages, and sometimes they may need
(29:30):
to choose abortion for various reasons.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
In fact, you took that explanation to Congress because you
testified in the weeks after the dabs' decision was leaked,
but before it was formally enacted about the importance of
safe and legal abortion access. That must have been a
stressful experience testifying before Congress. How did you find.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
That it was a very stressful experience. I never thought
that as a physician that I would end up being
considered a leader and an advocate in this area. But
I take my responsibilities to my patients very seriously. And
when you understand how important having access to the full
spectrum of options is, then despite the fear that I had,
(30:23):
I really felt that it was important for me to
step outside of that and do what was best for
my patients.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Well, that's spoken like a true physician who understands her
obligations to care for the people who seek her expertise.
And in fact, you do not come from a family
of doctors, And on paper one might say, wow, how
did she become a doctor? Could you talk about what
(30:50):
led you to do this work? And you know some
of the obstacles you yourself had to overcome in order
to be this very strong defender of your painations and
their right to healthcare.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
You're right, I didn't come from a family of doctors,
but I think that my journey to becoming a physician
is still deeply rooted in my family and my upbringing.
I often tell my children, now, you know, I repeat
what my mom said to me. If you're going to
do something, do it right, or don't do it at all.
And so I was a teen mom, I made the
(31:24):
decision that I wanted to become a health care provider
following just the experience that I had as a teen mom.
Some of the people that I encountered, and I know
how much negative stigma there is around teen pregnancy, and
then I was that girl. But the health care providers
(31:45):
that cared for me, they encouraged me despite the fact
that there were naysayers. They still treated me with respect,
and they still told me that I could achieve my dreams.
And that made a difference to me. And so I
made the decision that I wanted to do that and
be that person for somebody else.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
That's terrific. Well, you know, you have consistently advocated for
your patients. You know many of them are young black women.
They are, you know, coming to you for the care
and support they need. You want to make sure that
they get that they're safe, they're respected. But how are
(32:25):
the young women really women of all ages, but particularly
young women feeling about you know what's going on now
in Alabama and so many other states around the country
where you know, they are denied the full range of
care and services that had been provided before.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
I will tell you my patient population. The majority of
the people I care for are people of color. The
majority of our patients are also low income, and they
many of them do receive their health care services through Medicaid.
We do know that when services become scarce, when they're
(33:03):
difficult to access, those are the people. The most vulnerable
people are the ones that suffer the most. Universally, my
patients express fear. Many of them are very very confused,
some are angry and frustrated. I mean, this is just
a really devastating situation that we've been put in in
(33:24):
this area, and it's really unfortunate that people do didn't
realize how much it was going to affect them until
it happened and it was too late.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I think that's a very sad but accurate observation. A
lot of people did not believe it. Whatever happen. And
we know that maternal mortality rates are higher nationwide for
black women than for white women. We know that in
many parts of the South, infant mortality rates are much
(33:57):
higher than they are elsewhere. How have you seen that
play out in your own practice.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Alabama right now is in the middle of a maternal
health crisis. You know, thirty seven percent of the counties
here in Alabama are what we call maternity deserts. That
means that they do not have providers who are able
to provide prenatal care and delivery services. And this is
(34:24):
particularly devastating for the patients that I care for. Like
I said, many of my patients are people of color
and they are low income. Being able to access abortion care,
having access to quality maternity care, all of this can
make the difference between life and death, whether they end
up dying from pregnancy or complications of childbirth.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
This is what I find so frustrating because you're absolutely right,
and you're describing a reality that we are seeing across
the country. And it's hard breaking that we don't have
the best prenatal the best labor and delivery, the best
post birth care in the world. I mean, that's what
(35:10):
we should have. That's what every person deserves in terms
of the quality of healthcare. And I know that's one
of the reasons why you're trying to open a birth center.
What does that mean to you and to the community
to have that kind of service available.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
What we are working to do right now is to
open up the first freestanding birth center in North Alabama,
and that is a service that our community does not
have access to. We don't have birth centers in Alabama.
But there are a lot of good studies that show
that when patients are able to access we're free lick care,
(35:50):
that it can improve outcomes. And we also know that
in maternity health care deserts, midwives can bring a lot
of value and that's going to be one of the
answers to these rural areas that don't have hospitals that
currently provide obstetrical services. I mean, I'm not in a
rural area. I'm about an hour and fifteen minutes from Birmingham, Alabama,
(36:14):
which is a very large city here in Alabama, and
we have two more hospitals that just announced that this
month they will shut down their delivery services.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
We'll be right back. You know, you would think everyone
could get behind birth centers, places where women could go
to have safe, healthy deliveries that would improve the outcome
(36:51):
for them and their babies, But in fact, I heard
that the Alabama Department of Health has gone to great
lengths to block your and others' efforts to open first centers.
How do you make sense of that?
Speaker 3 (37:05):
There is no way to make sense of what just
does not make sense. The only thing that I see
is that this is just another area of control where
the people empower are exercising their control over women's reproductive
health choices, where people who are pregnant are not able
(37:26):
once again to make decisions about what's based for them
based off of their values, their resources, and their desires
and their belief system.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Well, I certainly agree with that. I have to ask you,
despite everything you've gone through and how you've had to
really just hold yourself together to keep going to do
what you know is needed, what gives you hope at
this current time.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
What gives me hope is knowing that there are people
out there that care that have not written the state
of Alabama off. We have a great team of attorneys
that was able to come and help us in our
efforts to be able to get the birth center open.
That helps to keep my head in the game my patients.
(38:15):
They also inspire me. I mean, I do ask myself
on some days like what am I doing? This is crazy?
Like everything that you do, everything should not be a struggle.
But when people come through my doors and they are
asking me when is the birth center going to open,
it makes it hard for me to give up and
just be like, you know what, this is not worth
(38:36):
doing it because I really care about them. And then
when you know what the studies show, when you know
that the data says that this will improve outcomes for
women that look like me, that makes a big difference
to me. It makes me want to work harder and
continue to do it, even though there are lots of
days that are very hard.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Well, there are many of us, and after this episode
runs there work there be many many more doctor who
are on your side, encouraging you. So grateful that you
haven't given up, that you're still there in the arena
doing everything you can to provide quality, affordable, accessible care
(39:17):
to your patients. Doctor Robinson, I'm so grateful to you
and so admiring of your dedication to do what you
know is right for your patients, and I just wish
you and your family the very very best going forward.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
If you'd like to support the important work doctor Robinson
is doing. Go to Alabama Birthcenter dot com for more
information and links to donate. When I think about the
state of women's reproductive rights in this country and the
backslide experienced, I get motivated to do something about it
(40:04):
because we can't give up, not with people like doctor
Robinson and Governor Pritzker and so many others who are
out there doing whatever they can. So please get involved,
whether it's fighting to keep hospitals and obgyn services open,
working to get abortion protections on ballots in your states,
(40:26):
or using the power of your vote in November to
ensure that we elect leaders who will fight for women
and our reproductive rights. And if you or someone you
know is seeking reproductive healthcare, including abortion care, call the
National Abortion Hotline at one eight hundred seven seven to
(40:49):
two ninety one hundred, or check out the website plan C.
It's an excellent online resource that provides state by state information.
And remember, abortion care is healthcare and it will be
on every ballot in the upcoming elections because of who
(41:12):
we are voting to elect. So let's keep going. Let's
elect people who will fight for reproductive justice and give
women the full reproductive rights we are entitled to You
(41:32):
and Me Both is brought to you by iHeart Podcasts.
We're produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo,
with help from Huma Abadeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz,
Laura Olin, Lona Valmoorro and Lily Weber. Our engineer is
(41:55):
Zach McNeice, and the original music is by Forrest Gray.
Like You and Me Both, tell someone else about it
And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you
waiting for? You can subscribe to You and Me Both
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next
(42:17):
week
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