November 7, 2023 • 31 mins
Hillary has been an admirer of Barbra Streisand’s throughout her remarkable career, and a friend since they first met back in 1992. There’s lots to admire about this iconic singer, actor, writer, producer, and director, known for her best-selling albums, performances on stage and screen, and activism. “Funny Girl”, “The Way We Were”, “Yentl”, and “A Star Is Born” are just a few of the titles that remind us of the profound impact Barbra's made on our cultural landscape.
Now, she’s added a new achievement to the list, with the release of her highly anticipated, expansive, and entertaining memoir: My Name is Barbra. She joins Hillary for a wide-ranging conversation about how she made her way from a cramped apartment in Flatbush, Brooklyn to the EGOT winner she is today; her special friendship with Hillary’s mother-in-law Virginia; and her unflinching honesty, which played out to comic effect on the first date with her now-husband of twenty-five years, James Brolin.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me both. Well,
today's guest truly needs no introduction, but I'm going to
give her one anyway. Barbara Streisand is a singer, actor,
film director, producer, writer, activist, you name it. Her list
of accomplishments spans seven decades and every facet of the
(00:25):
entertainment industry.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
But the short version.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Is that she is just one of a handful of
people to have won one or more Emmy, Grammy, Oscar
and Tony Awards. Now, some people revere Barbara for what
she does with her amazing singing voice. She is, after all,
one of the best selling recording artists of all time.
(00:52):
Others love her for her iconic performances on stage and screen,
from Funny Girl to was Star Is Born to Yentil,
you name it. And it is not just that she's acting,
but she became a director as well. None of this
was preordained. As a young teenager from Brooklyn going into
(01:18):
Manhattan in the early nineteen sixties performing in New York
City nightclubs, she had no connections or any formal training.
She was just a hungry kid from Flatbush who knew
what she wanted and was determined to go out there
and get it. You know, some early critics made negative
(01:41):
comments about her quote unquote unconventional looks. A few talent
hunters even told her to fix her nose. Thankfully, she
ignored them, but no one could deny her talent. I've
known Barbara since the early nineteen nineth We've supported a
(02:01):
lot of the same political causes, including my husband's campaigns
for president. Now I feel like I know her even better.
After reading My Name Is Barbara, her brand new, expansive
and very entertaining memoir, I was delighted she agreed to
come on the podcast to talk with me about it.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Hey, Barbara, can hear me, Hillary, I can hear you.
I can hear you.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Oh. I am so so happy to be doing this
with you.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
But I have to tell you I have a big
bone to pick.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I am so sleep deprived from reading this amazing, incredible memoir.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Oh I am I literally I could not sleep.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I kept saying to myself, Okay, just half a chapter more.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I'll get to one of the page breaks.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
And then I'd get to the page break and I
would keep going.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
It is phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Oh, I'm so that is such a compliment coming from you, Hillary,
It is so personal, so honest, so self reflective.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I could just gush this whole podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
That's all. Do it, do it please?
Speaker 1 (03:21):
It was worth the wait, my friend. You've been working
on this for I don't.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Know how ten years, ten years.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
And you know, I love the way that you opened
the book by talking about the nicknames said, the descriptions
of you in the press early in your career. It
gave me a good idea about how to open my
next book.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Oh really good.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Do these kinds of criticism still bother you at all?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well? Now I don't read them you either, No, I can't.
I can't because I guess I used to early in
my career, and I thought, but that's not true. That's
not true. Why did they you know? So it's better
not to read anything about yourself.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I have found that after many years.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
You know. I also was very touched by your dedication.
You dedicated your book to the father I never knew
and the mother that I did when I was reading
about those early years because you lost your father when
you were only fifteen months old. You have a scene
where you used to go up to the window to
(04:28):
wait for him to come home.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Do you remember that.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I know my mother told me that story, so I
know it's true.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
His absence was so profound to you.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
I guess it's so primal. And we know so much
as infants. Don't you think we feel things even though
we can't, you know, speak the words.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Parents cast such big shadows over our lives. And you
are very honest about the difficult relationship you had with
your mom.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
It wasn't simple, was it.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
No? No, because I couldn't fathom that a mother could
actually be jealous of her own daughter. I mean, you
must have been not the word touched. I don't mean
to give myself a compliment, But my relationship with Virginia,
(05:23):
your mother in law, how about that?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Well? I can barely talk about it, and for everyone listening.
Barbara Matt Bill's mother Virginia at the Arkansas Inaugural ball
back in January of nineteen ninety three. And you'd been
such a great supporter of Bill's campaign, and it was
(05:46):
so wonderful getting to know you starting in nineteen ninety two.
But there was something magic about the connection that you
and Virginia made.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Well, when he said from the stage, go with my
mom and Virginia took my hand. I think we were
both on the stage at the time, and it was like,
all of a sudden, it felt like family because we
had so much invested in his becoming president, changing the country,
(06:16):
you know, so walking that night and Richard Baskin and I,
who are still friends, took that picture from the back.
I love pictures from the back. You know. You don't
have to see people's faces to get the emotion and
the feeling of connection from a photograph, you know, I mean,
(06:37):
it's quite extraordinary.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
The way you talk about Virginia and your relationship in
the book was really moving. And the last public event
that she did in her whole life was to go
see you in your appearance in Las Vegas. And she
died shortly after that. And neither Bill nor I nor
anyone who knew her could have been happier for her
(07:03):
that she got to see you return to the stage.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Can you imagine? I mean, I remember talking to her
on the phone and I was telling her in May
for something that was going to happen at Christmas. Can
you imagine New Year's Eve? Actually? And I was telling
her that I decided to sing again after twenty some years,
(07:29):
and she said, well, I have to be there. And
I said, oh my god, would you really you know,
schlep all the way across the country to see me.
And she said of course. And I said, well, I'll
be singing on a Friday or Saturday and Saturday night,
so which night do you want to come? And she said, well,
aren't you singing both nights? I said yeah. She said,
(07:52):
well I want to be there both nights. You know,
in the past, my mother, well even that last time
I sang, you know, the first time after twenty some years,
my mother didn't come to my opening night because she
was out with girlfriend, she said. And she came the
(08:12):
second night. And that's when I put a picture of
Virginia and my mother. I was the cheese in the middle.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
The picture is very telling. You know, Virginia and I
are holding hands, but my mother's hand does not clasp mine.
I I don't know what to say after that.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I noticed that when I got to the section of
pictures in the book, I noticed exactly what you're describing.
But I want to go back to your earlier days,
because you know the story you tell about moving out
on your own. I think what were you sixteen, Yeah,
leaving Brooklyn, going to Manhattan, supporting yourself with a variety
(08:58):
of odd jobs.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
I was a clerk licking envelopes.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I mean, you really started your career very young. But
no matter what was going on inside of you, and
you write about some of your feelings, you presented yourself
as self assured.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I like to say, gutsy. Just describe for us how you.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Made the decision number one to leave Brooklyn get to Manhattan.
You always knew you wanted to be an actoract. I
mean you have great reflective scenes where you're saying to yourself, well,
when I'm a famous actor, when you were like thirteen
years old, when I'm an actor, I'm going to do this.
I mean, you always had that feeling about yourself. Where
did that come from?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
You know, that's the mystical side of life. I think.
I remember I told a story in my book that's
when I got an apartment next to my acting school.
I was sixteen. I turned sick. I graduated actually when
I was just fifteen. But I was standing in my
(10:06):
doorway that story that I didn't like to make my bed.
I couldn't comprehend certain things like today, I can't comprehend phones.
I really can't. I'm constantly asking my husband's next to
me in the bed, you know, how do you do this?
I mean, why does this arrow disappear? How come I
(10:29):
can't figure it? I cannot. I'm smart about certain things,
but not about phones. Anyway. I was reading a book
because I liked Ibsen as a playwright, and so I
bought a book called The Quintessence of Ibsenism, which I
thought was going to describe his plays, because they were
(10:50):
great parts as an actress, you know, for me. And
at one point I thought I read Thoughts Transcend Matter
by the way. Looking for that later on, I could
never find it in the book. So I don't know
where that came from. But I believed in the power
(11:11):
of thought and how it can create reality. And I
remember as if it were today, you know. I remember
standing in that doorway looking at the bed, which the
room was so small you could, you know, when you
find a small bed and no end table or anything
like that. And I thought to myself, I have to
(11:33):
get famous in order to get somebody else to make
my bed.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I love that, Do you know what I mean? In
other words, you know what you mean, you thought your
life and you invented it.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
You know, you made your Broadway debut when you were nineteen.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
You leave Brooklyn, you're fifteen, sixteen, you're young, you don't
know how to make a bed. You go to Manhattan
and you're in I can get it for your wholesale.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
And then two years later you're.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Starring as Fanny Brice in Funny Girl, and that role
was iconic, it lives in history. Did you sense the
cultural impact that role would have when you were playing it?
Speaker 3 (12:14):
No? No, But Julie Stein, who had written Gypsy m
this was before he even wrote Funny Girl, invited me
to his apartment with Alan and Marilyn bergman.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Ah, the wonderful songwriting duo and such an amazing couple.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, and who ended up being, you know, my family.
They played something for me that they thought I might
be interested a new Broadway show. And that's when I
didn't realize Julie Stein was a big gambler. I just wondered,
how do you live on Park Avenue and you only
have a card table in the living room? You know,
(12:57):
I thought that's interesting. Can I ask for a sandwich
and between shows that I can get a for your Holezelle.
So I remember Maggie, his wife, gave me something I love,
like white, soft, white bread with some chicken in it,
you know, and mayo, a little mustard perhaps. But they
played the score for me and I said, you know,
(13:19):
this is not anything that's right for me. And Marilyn
tells me this story, she said, you know, and then
you went on to describe what you wanted to do next,
what you wanted to do in the theater, what kind
of role. I wanted a dramatic story, a story where
(13:40):
I could stretch myself, you know, play her as some
person young and then older. And it had to be
a story that I could really relate to and feel
like I was using my acting capacity, you know. And
she said in retrospect, she said, you dinny girl, before
(14:01):
I had ever heard of it.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Well there's another.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
I'm telling you. I'm telling you.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Just two years after, Barbara conjured up that perfect role
for herself in her mind, she would be playing the
role of comedian and actress Fanny Brice in the hit
Broadway musical Funny Girl. Critics and theater goers were blown
away by her performance. Since she was appearing on all
(14:33):
the talk shows and showing up on the covers of
all the big magazines and getting fan mail from admirers
like Henry Fonda and Frank Sinatra. You'd think she had arrived,
but no, Barbara was just getting started. Next up, we
talk about her introduction to the big screen. That's right
(14:56):
after the break, so please stay with us. A big
part of Barber's book is about being in and creating movies.
(15:17):
To understand the allure they had for her, we have
to go back to when she was about thirteen years old,
living in a small apartment with her mother and her
very difficult stepfather. She talks about those days so vividly.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I used to eat over a pot, you know, in
this little kitchen from the projects. I mean they were
tiny little kitchens.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yes, God, what do.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
You just say? I mean, I thought it was normal
at the time till I saw other people and how
they lived and how they sit down at dinner. I
was like a wild animal in a way, very primitive,
you know. I just was a taught manners or anything. Donna,
Karen and I talk about how we both sat with
our knees up, one knee sitting at a dining room table.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
But you were also at this time living with an
emotionally abusive stepfather.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Exactly who never saw me, never spoke to me, really literally,
never asked a question like how a school or how
are you doing or anything. Yeah, so I never felt seen.
I think that that was my motive. I think that
(16:36):
when I saw movies. When I first saw Marlon Brando
when I was thirteen, and we didn't know in those days,
you know, that there were times for movies. So I
would come in the middle of movies because I didn't
realize they started at a certain time. And I saw
Marlon Brando and he just knocked me for a loop.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Oh well, he was so beautiful.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
He was incredibly beautiful, wasn't he. I mean, drop dead
gorgeous with his strange nose kind of to the side
and a bump. I loved his bump. The sound of
his voice. Yeah, and his his just his whatever you
call that, that charisma and his honesty, you know, And
(17:22):
that's why I think we became friends. Not that I'm
saying that about myself, but that's what drew me to him.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
But you should say that about yourself, because that comes
across in the book. I mean, I'll say it for you.
You come across as as being really honest. I mean
in a way that is unusual for anyone, but especially
a young woman just starting out. The questions you asked,
the observations you made, and you know, in the book
(17:51):
you talk about the attitude of the so called boys club,
first working on Broadway, then in film, even during a
television interview with Mike Wallace. You know, there's so much
to the challenge of navigating men's egos and expectations.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
How would you describe how you did that?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Unfortunately, it still is a reality in the lives of
so many, uh, you know, women trying to navigate careers.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
That's what's so pathetic. I mean, we've come this way,
but we haven't really attained that equality yet, have we.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
No.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I mean it's still you're a woman wanting to direct.
Isn't that interesting that you're asking me that? How did
that come about? I just had visions actually in my head.
I could imagine certain things that I had to fulfill.
I wasn't afraid of losing the job. I wasn't afraid
(18:51):
of that. I thought, Okay, this person turned me down,
now and I'll become a hat designer. You know. I mean,
I'll do something else, I'll pay, I'll design clothes, whatever.
So I wasn't afraid to lose, you know, to not
get what I want the first time around.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
You know, through your career you have paved the way
for other women. You've produced films that wrestle with questions
of women's choices and rights, and you helped us set
up a higher standard of pay authority for women because
you know, not to put too fine a point on it,
(19:30):
you are still one of the only women ever to write, direct,
produce and star in a major motion picture and you
have done that, you know, with three successful films. So
your honesty, which some people can be upset about, especially men,
(19:51):
really kind of cleared the decks for you to keep
moving even when you met disappointment or rejection.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
It's just that I was never taught manners in a sense,
you know, I just come to the point I'm blunt
about it. Also, when you have a vision of something,
let's say a movie or an album or something like that,
I think it has to be a singular vision. In
other words, doing a movie. Yeah, that's why it was
(20:19):
so hard to get yentl made fifteen years because it
was like you want to direct, you want to write,
you want to do this, and the same time, well,
how can you do that? Well there were men doing that,
There certainly were, you know, And so what does it
have to do with my gender? I think you really
have to have an overall vision. What does it look like?
(20:41):
How to tell the story? You know? What do the
shots look like? I mean, how does the camera move?
How do you tell the story of each person? How
do you limit the movement? You know what I mean,
There's so many things that interest me beside acting. Put
it that way. To me, it's that's the easy job.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
But the vision comes across in the book. It's almost
like there are two parallel stories, I mean, the story
of your life, you know. But also then you spend
a really considerable amount of time sort of explaining the
movies you were in and the questions you had. I mean,
(21:24):
obviously with yentl, the you know, the fact that you
were writing it, acting in it, and directing it gives
the reader.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Such a front row seat and how movies are made.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
I found talking about the process more interesting than talking
about myself. Put it that way, I never watched my
movies once I finished them. I'm not like Ronald Reagan
who used to sit and watch the movies. I was told,
but no, I can't. I can't listen to my music.
I can't listen to my albums.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Oh my gosh, you're kidding. So you don't watch your
movies and you don't listen to your singing.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
No I can't. I mean, after I finished the book,
I couldn't read it. Working on it for ten years,
I thought, when I finished, you know, the epilogue, I'm
trying to design the cover and the because again, it's
like making a movie to me, I have to design
(22:22):
the cover. That's my way of doing, you know, being
in control in a sense.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
But you know, I mean when somebody says that a
woman has to be in control, I always roll my eyes,
because you know, somebody who's making big bets, who's taking
big risks like you have with your career and your
life going all.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
The way back.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I mean, yeah, you do want to be in control
to the extent any human being is ever in control.
That's right, And anybody who reads this book will see
that you are so much more right than not in
the decisions you're making and in the you know direction
you want to go. And of course, as someone who
knows you and cares about you, the best decision was
(23:09):
marrying James Broland Jim Brolan, I mean, I love the
way you get to that. I mean, I'm waiting for it.
I'm reading It's three forty in the morning. Come on,
come on, let's get moving. We've gone through your very
you know, your very sweet first marriage with Elliot Gould,
who we all like and loved seeing, and then you know,
(23:32):
there are a couple of other interesting men that kind
of go in and out of your life.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
I can't talk about them. See. You know. My editor
was wonderful. She kept saying, I can't tell that. I
can't say that. No, no, you have to do you
have to let people in somewhat to your intimate life.
But I can't even read it or talk about I
can't mention names. Even I'm so still a little embarrassed
(23:58):
by it.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Well that's I've skipped everybody from Elliott to Jim.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Okay, good, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I'm not asking you about anybody in between. People are
going to have to read the book. Go out and
buy the book. Barbara did share with me the story
of how she met James Brolan, her husband of twenty
five years, and that's coming up right after the break
(24:34):
By now you know that Barbara believes that there's no
such thing as a coincidence. Things happened for a reason.
The story of how and when Jim came into her
life is no different. And a quick note, you'll hear
her mention someone named Renata. That's Renata who's been her
personal assistant for many years.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
He appeared while I was edit star. No, a mirror
has two faces. Where I took that job and that
film because for once myself as an actress playing roles
like funny girl and the way we were we don't
get the men at the end, and I thought to
(25:18):
myself self, maybe I should take this role. It's like
life imitates art in a sense. He shows up and
I leave my editors. While I'm editing, I had two
sections of editors, a daytime one and a nighttime. I
had no man in my life. I had room for
two sets of editors, you know, with a meal in between.
(25:41):
I said, because my friend had set me up with
Jim on a blind date, I told Renata, who drove
me into town, just wait, you know, it'll take me
like an hour, hour and a half and I'm going
back to work. And when I met him, I had
become used to working with men, directing men. When you
(26:03):
direct men, it's like they're your children. I'm comfortable touching
their hair. Normally in real life. I would never do
that to a man I was meeting too shy, you know,
But I ran my hands through his hair and said,
who fucked up your hair?
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Excuse me?
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Or do you? Are you allowed to say that on
your shot?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Because it's in the book. I read it.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
That's true. I said to my editor to make it
f dash dash k and she said absolutely not. You
know people say these words now.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Oh, but just again for people who are going to
read it.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
It's because he had a buzz cutter. You know, his
hair was really short.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Well in my new edition with the kindle, I know
I'm saying this wrong. I get them mixed up. I
don't know if it's an e book. I guess it's
that because I put in new pictures that are not
in the main book. As they pulled the book away,
I couldn't do the last minute, you know, editing, So
(27:04):
one of those things. I think it's called the e book.
But I remember you saying to me, he's so handsome.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
He is, and he's so nice, and he's so kind
and funny. I mean, he's the whole package.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Yeah, And he said to me, I'm taking you home,
and I had a colver not and say go home,
turn on the lights, and you know he's going to
drag me home. I mean it changed my life. But
that's the reason I said that about who fucked up
your sorry? Who f dashsh k, you know, screwed up
your screwed up your hair? Because now in the ebook,
(27:44):
if it that's what it is, I have a picture
of him as he looked. This is the person I
thought I was meeting, you know, with dark wavy hair
and a dark beard. And then I put the picture
of what he looked like, and I said, you know
what appen into him?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
You know, we've gone way over our time, so I
have to close.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
But yeah, you know, your life really does have a
fairy tale quality to it. And you've broken so many
barriers in your lifetime. You've achieved so many pioneering accomplishments.
Is there anything else you still dream of doing that
(28:24):
you haven't done yet?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I actually like the end of the book I say,
I really look forward to not having anything special to do,
meaning just getting in the truck with him and what
we used to do early on. You know, just looking
at the world. It's almost as if I'm still a
child in a way. You know, It's like I have
(28:49):
so much And you know what I'm talking about when
I say such pleasure for my grandchildren, I mean looking
at the world through their eyes. And one of my
granddaughters wants to sing. So don't tell her, but I'm preparing.
Her birthday is coming up soon. She's going to be five,
(29:10):
so I'm giving her first of all, well beside what
I give her me singing I'm five. I'm five. I'm
a big girl now I'm five. You know. But she
wants to be a singer. Can you imagine she was
taken to the Taylor Swift Her parents took her to
the Taylor Swift concert.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
I mean, she just loves music and she can.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Carry a tune. Well, I don't know. We're going to
keep an eye on her.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
I know, I know, I'll let you know when her
first concert comes.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Oh, my friend, thank you for writing this amazing book.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
I'm so appreciative of the fact that you liked it.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Barbara's new memoir is called My Name Is Barbara, and
it's available in bookstores now, and of course it's also online,
so get a copy before it sells out. And I
guarantee that you like me won't be able to put
it down. You and Me Both is brought to you
(30:22):
by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo
and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Abadeen, Oscar Flores,
Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lonavalmorro and Lily Weber.
Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and the original music is
(30:46):
by Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both,
tell someone else about it. And if you're not already
a subscriber, what are you waiting for? You can subscribe
to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week.
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me both. Well,
today's guest truly needs no introduction, but I'm going to
give her one anyway. Barbara Streisand is a singer, actor,
film director, producer, writer, activist, you name it. Her list
of accomplishments spans seven decades and every facet of the
(00:25):
entertainment industry.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
But the short version.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Is that she is just one of a handful of
people to have won one or more Emmy, Grammy, Oscar
and Tony Awards. Now, some people revere Barbara for what
she does with her amazing singing voice. She is, after all,
one of the best selling recording artists of all time.
(00:52):
Others love her for her iconic performances on stage and screen,
from Funny Girl to was Star Is Born to Yentil,
you name it. And it is not just that she's acting,
but she became a director as well. None of this
was preordained. As a young teenager from Brooklyn going into
(01:18):
Manhattan in the early nineteen sixties performing in New York
City nightclubs, she had no connections or any formal training.
She was just a hungry kid from Flatbush who knew
what she wanted and was determined to go out there
and get it. You know, some early critics made negative
(01:41):
comments about her quote unquote unconventional looks. A few talent
hunters even told her to fix her nose. Thankfully, she
ignored them, but no one could deny her talent. I've
known Barbara since the early nineteen nineth We've supported a
(02:01):
lot of the same political causes, including my husband's campaigns
for president. Now I feel like I know her even better.
After reading My Name Is Barbara, her brand new, expansive
and very entertaining memoir, I was delighted she agreed to
come on the podcast to talk with me about it.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Hey, Barbara, can hear me, Hillary, I can hear you.
I can hear you.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Oh. I am so so happy to be doing this
with you.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
But I have to tell you I have a big
bone to pick.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I am so sleep deprived from reading this amazing, incredible memoir.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Oh I am I literally I could not sleep.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I kept saying to myself, Okay, just half a chapter more.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I'll get to one of the page breaks.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
And then I'd get to the page break and I
would keep going.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
It is phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Oh, I'm so that is such a compliment coming from you, Hillary,
It is so personal, so honest, so self reflective.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I could just gush this whole podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
That's all. Do it, do it please?
Speaker 1 (03:21):
It was worth the wait, my friend. You've been working
on this for I don't.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Know how ten years, ten years.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
And you know, I love the way that you opened
the book by talking about the nicknames said, the descriptions
of you in the press early in your career. It
gave me a good idea about how to open my
next book.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Oh really good.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Do these kinds of criticism still bother you at all?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well? Now I don't read them you either, No, I can't.
I can't because I guess I used to early in
my career, and I thought, but that's not true. That's
not true. Why did they you know? So it's better
not to read anything about yourself.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I have found that after many years.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
You know. I also was very touched by your dedication.
You dedicated your book to the father I never knew
and the mother that I did when I was reading
about those early years because you lost your father when
you were only fifteen months old. You have a scene
where you used to go up to the window to
(04:28):
wait for him to come home.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Do you remember that.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I know my mother told me that story, so I
know it's true.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
His absence was so profound to you.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
I guess it's so primal. And we know so much
as infants. Don't you think we feel things even though
we can't, you know, speak the words.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Parents cast such big shadows over our lives. And you
are very honest about the difficult relationship you had with
your mom.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
It wasn't simple, was it.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
No? No, because I couldn't fathom that a mother could
actually be jealous of her own daughter. I mean, you
must have been not the word touched. I don't mean
to give myself a compliment, But my relationship with Virginia,
(05:23):
your mother in law, how about that?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Well? I can barely talk about it, and for everyone listening.
Barbara Matt Bill's mother Virginia at the Arkansas Inaugural ball
back in January of nineteen ninety three. And you'd been
such a great supporter of Bill's campaign, and it was
(05:46):
so wonderful getting to know you starting in nineteen ninety two.
But there was something magic about the connection that you
and Virginia made.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Well, when he said from the stage, go with my
mom and Virginia took my hand. I think we were
both on the stage at the time, and it was like,
all of a sudden, it felt like family because we
had so much invested in his becoming president, changing the country,
(06:16):
you know, so walking that night and Richard Baskin and I,
who are still friends, took that picture from the back.
I love pictures from the back. You know. You don't
have to see people's faces to get the emotion and
the feeling of connection from a photograph, you know, I mean,
(06:37):
it's quite extraordinary.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
The way you talk about Virginia and your relationship in
the book was really moving. And the last public event
that she did in her whole life was to go
see you in your appearance in Las Vegas. And she
died shortly after that. And neither Bill nor I nor
anyone who knew her could have been happier for her
(07:03):
that she got to see you return to the stage.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Can you imagine? I mean, I remember talking to her
on the phone and I was telling her in May
for something that was going to happen at Christmas. Can
you imagine New Year's Eve? Actually? And I was telling
her that I decided to sing again after twenty some years,
(07:29):
and she said, well, I have to be there. And
I said, oh my god, would you really you know,
schlep all the way across the country to see me.
And she said of course. And I said, well, I'll
be singing on a Friday or Saturday and Saturday night,
so which night do you want to come? And she said, well,
aren't you singing both nights? I said yeah. She said,
(07:52):
well I want to be there both nights. You know,
in the past, my mother, well even that last time
I sang, you know, the first time after twenty some years,
my mother didn't come to my opening night because she
was out with girlfriend, she said. And she came the
(08:12):
second night. And that's when I put a picture of
Virginia and my mother. I was the cheese in the middle.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
The picture is very telling. You know, Virginia and I
are holding hands, but my mother's hand does not clasp mine.
I I don't know what to say after that.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I noticed that when I got to the section of
pictures in the book, I noticed exactly what you're describing.
But I want to go back to your earlier days,
because you know the story you tell about moving out
on your own. I think what were you sixteen, Yeah,
leaving Brooklyn, going to Manhattan, supporting yourself with a variety
(08:58):
of odd jobs.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
I was a clerk licking envelopes.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I mean, you really started your career very young. But
no matter what was going on inside of you, and
you write about some of your feelings, you presented yourself
as self assured.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I like to say, gutsy. Just describe for us how you.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Made the decision number one to leave Brooklyn get to Manhattan.
You always knew you wanted to be an actoract. I
mean you have great reflective scenes where you're saying to yourself, well,
when I'm a famous actor, when you were like thirteen
years old, when I'm an actor, I'm going to do this.
I mean, you always had that feeling about yourself. Where
did that come from?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
You know, that's the mystical side of life. I think.
I remember I told a story in my book that's
when I got an apartment next to my acting school.
I was sixteen. I turned sick. I graduated actually when
I was just fifteen. But I was standing in my
(10:06):
doorway that story that I didn't like to make my bed.
I couldn't comprehend certain things like today, I can't comprehend phones.
I really can't. I'm constantly asking my husband's next to
me in the bed, you know, how do you do this?
I mean, why does this arrow disappear? How come I
(10:29):
can't figure it? I cannot. I'm smart about certain things,
but not about phones. Anyway. I was reading a book
because I liked Ibsen as a playwright, and so I
bought a book called The Quintessence of Ibsenism, which I
thought was going to describe his plays, because they were
(10:50):
great parts as an actress, you know, for me. And
at one point I thought I read Thoughts Transcend Matter
by the way. Looking for that later on, I could
never find it in the book. So I don't know
where that came from. But I believed in the power
(11:11):
of thought and how it can create reality. And I
remember as if it were today, you know. I remember
standing in that doorway looking at the bed, which the
room was so small you could, you know, when you
find a small bed and no end table or anything
like that. And I thought to myself, I have to
(11:33):
get famous in order to get somebody else to make
my bed.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I love that, Do you know what I mean? In
other words, you know what you mean, you thought your
life and you invented it.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
You know, you made your Broadway debut when you were nineteen.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
You leave Brooklyn, you're fifteen, sixteen, you're young, you don't
know how to make a bed. You go to Manhattan
and you're in I can get it for your wholesale.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
And then two years later you're.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Starring as Fanny Brice in Funny Girl, and that role
was iconic, it lives in history. Did you sense the
cultural impact that role would have when you were playing it?
Speaker 3 (12:14):
No? No, But Julie Stein, who had written Gypsy m
this was before he even wrote Funny Girl, invited me
to his apartment with Alan and Marilyn bergman.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Ah, the wonderful songwriting duo and such an amazing couple.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, and who ended up being, you know, my family.
They played something for me that they thought I might
be interested a new Broadway show. And that's when I
didn't realize Julie Stein was a big gambler. I just wondered,
how do you live on Park Avenue and you only
have a card table in the living room? You know,
(12:57):
I thought that's interesting. Can I ask for a sandwich
and between shows that I can get a for your Holezelle.
So I remember Maggie, his wife, gave me something I love,
like white, soft, white bread with some chicken in it,
you know, and mayo, a little mustard perhaps. But they
played the score for me and I said, you know,
(13:19):
this is not anything that's right for me. And Marilyn
tells me this story, she said, you know, and then
you went on to describe what you wanted to do next,
what you wanted to do in the theater, what kind
of role. I wanted a dramatic story, a story where
(13:40):
I could stretch myself, you know, play her as some
person young and then older. And it had to be
a story that I could really relate to and feel
like I was using my acting capacity, you know. And
she said in retrospect, she said, you dinny girl, before
(14:01):
I had ever heard of it.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Well there's another.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
I'm telling you. I'm telling you.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Just two years after, Barbara conjured up that perfect role
for herself in her mind, she would be playing the
role of comedian and actress Fanny Brice in the hit
Broadway musical Funny Girl. Critics and theater goers were blown
away by her performance. Since she was appearing on all
(14:33):
the talk shows and showing up on the covers of
all the big magazines and getting fan mail from admirers
like Henry Fonda and Frank Sinatra. You'd think she had arrived,
but no, Barbara was just getting started. Next up, we
talk about her introduction to the big screen. That's right
(14:56):
after the break, so please stay with us. A big
part of Barber's book is about being in and creating movies.
(15:17):
To understand the allure they had for her, we have
to go back to when she was about thirteen years old,
living in a small apartment with her mother and her
very difficult stepfather. She talks about those days so vividly.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I used to eat over a pot, you know, in
this little kitchen from the projects. I mean they were
tiny little kitchens.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yes, God, what do.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
You just say? I mean, I thought it was normal
at the time till I saw other people and how
they lived and how they sit down at dinner. I
was like a wild animal in a way, very primitive,
you know. I just was a taught manners or anything. Donna,
Karen and I talk about how we both sat with
our knees up, one knee sitting at a dining room table.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
But you were also at this time living with an
emotionally abusive stepfather.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Exactly who never saw me, never spoke to me, really literally,
never asked a question like how a school or how
are you doing or anything. Yeah, so I never felt seen.
I think that that was my motive. I think that
(16:36):
when I saw movies. When I first saw Marlon Brando
when I was thirteen, and we didn't know in those days,
you know, that there were times for movies. So I
would come in the middle of movies because I didn't
realize they started at a certain time. And I saw
Marlon Brando and he just knocked me for a loop.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Oh well, he was so beautiful.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
He was incredibly beautiful, wasn't he. I mean, drop dead
gorgeous with his strange nose kind of to the side
and a bump. I loved his bump. The sound of
his voice. Yeah, and his his just his whatever you
call that, that charisma and his honesty, you know, And
(17:22):
that's why I think we became friends. Not that I'm
saying that about myself, but that's what drew me to him.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
But you should say that about yourself, because that comes
across in the book. I mean, I'll say it for you.
You come across as as being really honest. I mean
in a way that is unusual for anyone, but especially
a young woman just starting out. The questions you asked,
the observations you made, and you know, in the book
(17:51):
you talk about the attitude of the so called boys club,
first working on Broadway, then in film, even during a
television interview with Mike Wallace. You know, there's so much
to the challenge of navigating men's egos and expectations.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
How would you describe how you did that?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Unfortunately, it still is a reality in the lives of
so many, uh, you know, women trying to navigate careers.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
That's what's so pathetic. I mean, we've come this way,
but we haven't really attained that equality yet, have we.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
No.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I mean it's still you're a woman wanting to direct.
Isn't that interesting that you're asking me that? How did
that come about? I just had visions actually in my head.
I could imagine certain things that I had to fulfill.
I wasn't afraid of losing the job. I wasn't afraid
(18:51):
of that. I thought, Okay, this person turned me down,
now and I'll become a hat designer. You know. I mean,
I'll do something else, I'll pay, I'll design clothes, whatever.
So I wasn't afraid to lose, you know, to not
get what I want the first time around.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
You know, through your career you have paved the way
for other women. You've produced films that wrestle with questions
of women's choices and rights, and you helped us set
up a higher standard of pay authority for women because
you know, not to put too fine a point on it,
(19:30):
you are still one of the only women ever to write, direct,
produce and star in a major motion picture and you
have done that, you know, with three successful films. So
your honesty, which some people can be upset about, especially men,
(19:51):
really kind of cleared the decks for you to keep
moving even when you met disappointment or rejection.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
It's just that I was never taught manners in a sense,
you know, I just come to the point I'm blunt
about it. Also, when you have a vision of something,
let's say a movie or an album or something like that,
I think it has to be a singular vision. In
other words, doing a movie. Yeah, that's why it was
(20:19):
so hard to get yentl made fifteen years because it
was like you want to direct, you want to write,
you want to do this, and the same time, well,
how can you do that? Well there were men doing that,
There certainly were, you know, And so what does it
have to do with my gender? I think you really
have to have an overall vision. What does it look like?
(20:41):
How to tell the story? You know? What do the
shots look like? I mean, how does the camera move?
How do you tell the story of each person? How
do you limit the movement? You know what I mean,
There's so many things that interest me beside acting. Put
it that way. To me, it's that's the easy job.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
But the vision comes across in the book. It's almost
like there are two parallel stories, I mean, the story
of your life, you know. But also then you spend
a really considerable amount of time sort of explaining the
movies you were in and the questions you had. I mean,
(21:24):
obviously with yentl, the you know, the fact that you
were writing it, acting in it, and directing it gives
the reader.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Such a front row seat and how movies are made.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
I found talking about the process more interesting than talking
about myself. Put it that way, I never watched my
movies once I finished them. I'm not like Ronald Reagan
who used to sit and watch the movies. I was told,
but no, I can't. I can't listen to my music.
I can't listen to my albums.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Oh my gosh, you're kidding. So you don't watch your
movies and you don't listen to your singing.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
No I can't. I mean, after I finished the book,
I couldn't read it. Working on it for ten years,
I thought, when I finished, you know, the epilogue, I'm
trying to design the cover and the because again, it's
like making a movie to me, I have to design
(22:22):
the cover. That's my way of doing, you know, being
in control in a sense.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
But you know, I mean when somebody says that a
woman has to be in control, I always roll my eyes,
because you know, somebody who's making big bets, who's taking
big risks like you have with your career and your
life going all.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
The way back.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I mean, yeah, you do want to be in control
to the extent any human being is ever in control.
That's right, And anybody who reads this book will see
that you are so much more right than not in
the decisions you're making and in the you know direction
you want to go. And of course, as someone who
knows you and cares about you, the best decision was
(23:09):
marrying James Broland Jim Brolan, I mean, I love the
way you get to that. I mean, I'm waiting for it.
I'm reading It's three forty in the morning. Come on,
come on, let's get moving. We've gone through your very
you know, your very sweet first marriage with Elliot Gould,
who we all like and loved seeing, and then you know,
(23:32):
there are a couple of other interesting men that kind
of go in and out of your life.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
I can't talk about them. See. You know. My editor
was wonderful. She kept saying, I can't tell that. I
can't say that. No, no, you have to do you
have to let people in somewhat to your intimate life.
But I can't even read it or talk about I
can't mention names. Even I'm so still a little embarrassed
(23:58):
by it.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Well that's I've skipped everybody from Elliott to Jim.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Okay, good, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I'm not asking you about anybody in between. People are
going to have to read the book. Go out and
buy the book. Barbara did share with me the story
of how she met James Brolan, her husband of twenty
five years, and that's coming up right after the break
(24:34):
By now you know that Barbara believes that there's no
such thing as a coincidence. Things happened for a reason.
The story of how and when Jim came into her
life is no different. And a quick note, you'll hear
her mention someone named Renata. That's Renata who's been her
personal assistant for many years.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
He appeared while I was edit star. No, a mirror
has two faces. Where I took that job and that
film because for once myself as an actress playing roles
like funny girl and the way we were we don't
get the men at the end, and I thought to
(25:18):
myself self, maybe I should take this role. It's like
life imitates art in a sense. He shows up and
I leave my editors. While I'm editing, I had two
sections of editors, a daytime one and a nighttime. I
had no man in my life. I had room for
two sets of editors, you know, with a meal in between.
(25:41):
I said, because my friend had set me up with
Jim on a blind date, I told Renata, who drove
me into town, just wait, you know, it'll take me
like an hour, hour and a half and I'm going
back to work. And when I met him, I had
become used to working with men, directing men. When you
(26:03):
direct men, it's like they're your children. I'm comfortable touching
their hair. Normally in real life. I would never do
that to a man I was meeting too shy, you know,
But I ran my hands through his hair and said,
who fucked up your hair?
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Excuse me?
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Or do you? Are you allowed to say that on
your shot?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Because it's in the book. I read it.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
That's true. I said to my editor to make it
f dash dash k and she said absolutely not. You
know people say these words now.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Oh, but just again for people who are going to
read it.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
It's because he had a buzz cutter. You know, his
hair was really short.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Well in my new edition with the kindle, I know
I'm saying this wrong. I get them mixed up. I
don't know if it's an e book. I guess it's
that because I put in new pictures that are not
in the main book. As they pulled the book away,
I couldn't do the last minute, you know, editing, So
(27:04):
one of those things. I think it's called the e book.
But I remember you saying to me, he's so handsome.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
He is, and he's so nice, and he's so kind
and funny. I mean, he's the whole package.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Yeah, And he said to me, I'm taking you home,
and I had a colver not and say go home,
turn on the lights, and you know he's going to
drag me home. I mean it changed my life. But
that's the reason I said that about who fucked up
your sorry? Who f dashsh k, you know, screwed up
your screwed up your hair? Because now in the ebook,
(27:44):
if it that's what it is, I have a picture
of him as he looked. This is the person I
thought I was meeting, you know, with dark wavy hair
and a dark beard. And then I put the picture
of what he looked like, and I said, you know
what appen into him?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
You know, we've gone way over our time, so I
have to close.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
But yeah, you know, your life really does have a
fairy tale quality to it. And you've broken so many
barriers in your lifetime. You've achieved so many pioneering accomplishments.
Is there anything else you still dream of doing that
(28:24):
you haven't done yet?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
I actually like the end of the book I say,
I really look forward to not having anything special to do,
meaning just getting in the truck with him and what
we used to do early on. You know, just looking
at the world. It's almost as if I'm still a
child in a way. You know, It's like I have
(28:49):
so much And you know what I'm talking about when
I say such pleasure for my grandchildren, I mean looking
at the world through their eyes. And one of my
granddaughters wants to sing. So don't tell her, but I'm preparing.
Her birthday is coming up soon. She's going to be five,
(29:10):
so I'm giving her first of all, well beside what
I give her me singing I'm five. I'm five. I'm
a big girl now I'm five. You know. But she
wants to be a singer. Can you imagine she was
taken to the Taylor Swift Her parents took her to
the Taylor Swift concert.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
I mean, she just loves music and she can.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Carry a tune. Well, I don't know. We're going to
keep an eye on her.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
I know, I know, I'll let you know when her
first concert comes.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Oh, my friend, thank you for writing this amazing book.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
I'm so appreciative of the fact that you liked it.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Barbara's new memoir is called My Name Is Barbara, and
it's available in bookstores now, and of course it's also online,
so get a copy before it sells out. And I
guarantee that you like me won't be able to put
it down. You and Me Both is brought to you
(30:22):
by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo
and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Abadeen, Oscar Flores,
Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lonavalmorro and Lily Weber.
Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and the original music is
(30:46):
by Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both,
tell someone else about it. And if you're not already
a subscriber, what are you waiting for? You can subscribe
to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week.
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