September 26, 2023 • 31 mins
Hillary kicks off a new season of You and Me Both in conversation with House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries–a man after her own heart when it comes to getting things done.
Leader Jeffries, the United States Representative for New York’s 8th Congressional District, was a litigator and New York State Assemblyman before moving up the ladder in Congress, from chair of the House Democratic Caucus to his current role as Democratic Leader. He also served as a House Manager overseeing the first impeachment of former President Trump.
Throughout his meteoric rise, though, he’s never forgotten his Brooklyn roots – the Baptist Church, hip hop music, and the values of his civil servant parents. And he loves a good sports metaphor, as you’ll hear in this wide-reaching conversation spanning his childhood, his bipartisan work on criminal justice reform, and his strategy for unifying his boisterous House caucus and refining the Democratic Party’s message to the American people.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both.
I am thrilled to be back for a new season
of the podcast, and especially delighted we are starting off
with such a special guest. I've been following the steady
rise of House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries for some time now,
through his years in the New York State Assembly, then
(00:28):
in Congress as a House Manager, overseeing the first impeachment
of the former president, and as the chair of the
House Democratic Caucus. But one of the most memorable moments
in his esteemed career came this past January, just after
those four chaotic days of in fighting before the House
(00:50):
Republicans finally elected Kevin McCarthy as Speaker. At the same time,
Hakim was unanimously chosen by his colleagues to be the
Democratic Leader, and in his first act in that capacity,
he took to the podium and offered his vision of
(01:10):
what Democrats in the House stand for.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
House Democrats will always put American values over autocracy.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
And he did this.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Let me remind you, in alphabetical order.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Liberty over limitation, maturity over mar a lago, normalcy over negativity,
opportunity over obstruction.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I thought it was an amazing speech, and it perfectly
demonstrated his unique qualities as a leader, drawing on his
Brooklyn roots, the Baptist Church, hip hop music, the values
of his civil servant parents, as well as his skills
as a litigator and orator. I'm so happy to share
(01:59):
my conversation with Leader Jeffries with you today.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Amen a second, theary. How are you good?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Good?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
How you doing?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I'm doing great well.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Let me welcome to the podcast, Congressman Hakim Jeffries. I
am so excited to speak with you today about a
whole bunch of things.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I literally could talk to you for hours, Hakim.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But I guess we'll try to limit it to, oh,
you know, your personal history, the future of democracy, what's
happening in the Congress, and maybe I can, you know,
let you go before dinner. I'm not sure, but it's
just such a treat to have you. And let's start
with your parents, because both of your parents were civil
(02:43):
servants and I'm wondering how that might have influenced you
to pursue the career that you are now in. Was
their dinner table conversations about justice and equity and public service.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
How did it all start.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
You know, growing up in a household with my father, who,
as you mentioned, and my mother, both of whom were
public employees throughout the entirety of their careers. My father
was a substance abuse social worker for the State of
New York during some trying times for the City of
New York, including during the nineteen seventies the heroin explosion
(03:23):
and in the nineteen eighties into the early nineties to
crack cocaine epidemic, and my mother worked for the Human
Resources Administration as a case worker. So they were very
much involved in just trying to be there for people
who were in many circumstances, going through some adversity and
(03:43):
trying to get to a better place. And while there
weren't a lot of conversations around the dinner table about
politics per se, there weren't a lot of conversations just
about helping people solve problems. And I think as I
emerged from law school into the practice of law, a
(04:04):
lot of the influence of my parents that eventually perhaps
led me to pursue public service was a desire to
want to be there for the working class neighborhoods that
I were raised in Central Brooklyn Crown Heights, but of
course growing up in Cornerstone Baptist Church and Beford Stuyvesant
(04:25):
certainly had an impact on me going in the direction
that I chose to pursue.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
You know, you came of age during the beginning and
the growth of rap, and I somehow think that's significant.
You've been known to incorporate rap lyrics into speeches, You're
known to be a big hip hop fan. Did you
ever think about being a rap artist yourself? Come on,
I won't tell anybody well.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Because it's you, Madame Secretary. I certainly did aspire to
be a hip hop artist. It didn't quite work out
for me, but when I was coming up as a
young man, and you know, in the mid to late
eighties into the early nineties, there was certainly a point
of time where I thought that perhaps I had the
skill set to be able to break through into the
(05:13):
rap industry. Didn't work out, but it's still a very
important part of sort of who I've become, and I
think that connects to what the House of Representatives in
particular is supposed to represent, which is, as you know,
the institution closest to the American people to reflect the hopes,
(05:35):
the dreams, the aspirations, the fears, the concerns, the anxieties,
and the words of the framers the passions of the
American people. And so the best representatives in the House
bring the culture, the vibrancy, the heart, the soul of
the communities that they represent at home to Washington, d C.
And for me, a large part of that certainly is
(05:56):
growing up in Central Brooklyn, growing up in the Baptis Church,
growing up during the Golden Era, and the coming of
age of hip hop music, and eventually my own professional
experiences as a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, we saw some of your lawyering skills on a
very high public platform when you were one of the
impeachment prosecutors during Trump's presidency.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
You know, I was one of those.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Who followed that closely, and I'm just wondering why was
it important to you to be part of that trial.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Well, I want to thank Speaker Pelosi, of course, as
I've done so repeatedly, for her embracing my journey in
a variety of different ways, including giving me the opportunity
to serve as an impeachment manager during that first impeachment trial,
where we were working hard to really begin the process
of vindicating the principle that in America no one is
(06:53):
above the law. And in that particular case, you had
the former president who, in our view, engaged in the
corrupt abuse of power as part of the beginning of
his effort to try to manipulate the twenty twenty presidential
election by encouraging a foreign country, Ukraine, pressuring them to
(07:15):
target an American citizen, Joe Biden, and doing so in
one of the most unfortunate ways, which is basically a
geopolitical shakedown of Ukraine, by withholding hundreds of millions of
dollars in defense support, with Russia knocking at the door
(07:36):
wanting to overrun Ukraine as we've now seen they've endeavored
to do.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
It must have been very challenging in the circumstances in
which you and the other House impeachment managers found yourselves
to just see the naked partisanship that the evidence, the law,
the clear intention of what the former president was doing
made little to no impact on the Republicans in the Senate.
(08:06):
Did any of them or any of your Republican colleagues
in the House ever say to you, Congressman that yeah, look,
they knew it was a problem, but they just couldn't
take the kind of radical action that was required to
hold Trump accountable.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
At the time, there were some Republicans who would express
concern with what they viewed as inappropriate conduct by Donald Trump,
but did largely take the position that it didn't rise
to the level of an impeachable offense. And I think
they were looking through glasses that were rose colored in
(08:46):
that regard based on partisanship, So that was quite unfortunate.
But we understood that there were three things that we
needed to do in presenting the case. We needed to
make the case to the Senate sitting as a court
in judgment of the president. We needed to present the
case to the American people. But we also needed to
(09:08):
present the case for the historical record.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I think that's a very important reminder that what you
were doing, in my view, was as much for history
as anything, to demonstrate clearly the very disturbing behavior of
the former president. And in this fast paced world we
find ourselves these days, I think it's good to remind
ourselves that building a case, building a record, making a
(09:35):
commitment to truth and to getting it out there, even
if it doesn't have the desired effect immediately, is critically important.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I think that's exactly right. And the thing that I'd
point out as well is that I think it was
doctor King who once said the time is always right
to do what's right, And the way I interpret that
is that even if the immediate results that you yield
aren't what you are aiming to accomplish, eventually you're going
(10:07):
to get to the right place. But it has to
start by leaning in and just elevating truth and facts
and perspective, even if some people throughout the country aren't ready.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
To receive it well, or, as scripture tells us, do
not grow weary in doing good, because eventually you will
reap the harvest. But sometimes there are difficult boulders in
your path, and that's particularly true in your position as
a leader. You've been both an unofficial and now official
(10:40):
leader in the party for years, and I'm just wondering,
you know, what did Speaker Pelosi have to tell you
or advise you when she passed that leadership baton. I've
known her, as you well know, for many, many years,
and there really isn't a shrewder mind and a more
(11:00):
effective political organizer in the Democratic Party and certainly one
of the most successful speakers in our country's history.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
But our question, I thinks you will go down as
certainly the greatest speaker of all time and what she's
been able to deliver for the American people even with
narrow majorities in the House. But what I've learned from
her throughout the years and as we made the transition,
is that you know, it's important to find the highest
(11:30):
common denominator now prior to that, it often involves some
enthusiastic debates. That happening, and we win no stranger to
enthusiastic debates, particularly in the House of Representatives. That's true,
and we kind of work through those family dynamics. But
at the end of the day, what's always been important
in terms of Speaker Pelosi's leadership, and I've tried to
(11:52):
follow along in this regard, is there comes a point
where you have to make a decision to go forward,
and we make that decision, and to go forward, you
do that by finding the highest common denominator a months
a variety of different perspectives, and in my view, you
then advance the ball make the progress that you can
make and where you fall short, you live to fight
(12:14):
another day. As America continues on March, total more perfect Union.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
We're taking a quick break.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Stay with us, just like you.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
I've been criticized by some that quote I'm not progressive enough.
In response to that, I said back in the twenty
sixteen campaign, I'm a progressive who likes to get things done.
So for my views on your leadership, I think you're
playing it exactly right. But I think a lot of
people don't fully appreciate the extraordinary balancing act that you
(12:59):
and Gauge an every day to keep your caucus together.
And it's been miraculous how united it has been. And
I give you big, you know, plaudits for that, but
maybe give us a little inside view of how you
do that every day, because that's the real key to
leadership in a big, contentious, pluralistic body like the House
(13:22):
Democratic Caucus.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Well, some people may say that the House is, you know,
by nature, a chaotic institution, and I don't disagree with
that sentiment. I do think that whoever organizes the dynamic
chaos the best yields the best results, and from my standpoint,
the way to try to do that is to authentically
(13:46):
value the perspectives of every single member of the House
Democratic Caucus, from the most progressive member on one end
of the spectrum representative of Ocasio Cortes, to the most
moderate centrist member like a John Scottheimer, and all points
in between, and to really listen, to authentically value the
(14:07):
fact that they each, along with every other member of
the House Democratic Caucus, was elected to do a job
on behalf of the communities that their privileged to represent.
To have those conversations sometimes noisy ones amongst us as
a group collectively, but to always be guided by that
north star of finding common ground to advance the ball
(14:30):
for the American people. And I think as I transitioned
into this position having served as Chair of the House
Democratic Caucus for four years, where I did have the
responsibility to interact with individual members and the different parts
of the Democratic Caucus. And we've got everything from progressives
to New Dems, to Blue Dogs to problem solvers, to
(14:50):
the Congression of Black Caucus, the Congression of the Vanic Caucus,
the Asian and Pacific Islander Caucus, the Women's Caucus, the
LGBTQ Caucus. We got it all. And that's the beauty
of what we are as House Democrats, And it's like,
how do you bring the orchestra together? You respect everyone's
craft as individuals, but know that you can make the
(15:12):
best possible music when at the end of the day
we're all working together.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I love that metaphor the orchestra. That's a great way
of talking about it.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
You know.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I know one of the key issues you are passionate
about is criminal justice reform. And you've actually made some
progress now, and you did so with some Republican bipartisan support.
So what is next in the reform agenda for helping
to create a more equitable, just criminal justice system.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Well, I was delighted to be able to be part
of the effort a few years ago to work on
criminal justice reform in a bipartisan way, to try to
roll back some of the excesses of what I think
most people would view as the failed War on drugs,
and to to get us to a better place where
we both were leaning into public safety, but also helping
(16:06):
people successfully transition back into society, become productive citizens, save
taxpayer dollars, and provide individuals with the skills, the education,
the mental health intervention to be able to be successful
as returning citizens, and we were able to find a
(16:27):
path forward, eventually resulting in the first step back that
brought together Democrats and Republicans, the left and the right,
the ACLU and the Koch Brothers, the NAACP and the
Heritage Foundation, and all points in between. And it was
part of an approach that while you were in the Senate,
Manham Secretary, you leaned into this aggressively as well, bringing
(16:49):
together what I would call a coalition of the unusual suspects.
And when you can do that, you can really make
legislative magic and capture the attention and imagination of the
American people. And one of the reasons why it's possible
to do that and why I think there are future
opportunities in the criminal justice reform space is because Democrats
(17:11):
and Republicans have arrived at the need to deal with
over criminalization and mass incarceration in America connected to their
own authentic ideologies, you know, as democrats and progressives. Many
of us arrive at that place because of views of
social justice or racial justice or economic justice, and this
(17:34):
concept of liberty and justice for all in America and
bringing that to life for the greatest number of people,
But many of my Republican colleagues have authentically got to
the same place, perhaps for different reasons, but those reasons
are authentic to them. Fiscal conservatives concluding that billions of
dollars in mass incarceration without resulting public safety benefits is
(17:56):
a failed government program and a waste of taxpayer dollars.
Many of the religious right and the Christian conservatives who
have been involved in this effort have come to that
place that everyone in society deserves a second chance, that
we all fall short in the eyes of the Lord,
and the libertarians have concluded individuals like Ram Paul, who
(18:17):
I may disagree with on a whole host of issues,
but on criminal justice reform, we're in lockstep because they
generally don't like what they view as government overreach, and
all of us have been able to make the case
that if you don't like government overreach, one of the
areas where it can be particularly damaging to the American
people is when the government can, unjustifiably in some instances,
(18:41):
take away your life or your liberty. And so, because
we have authentically arrived at the same place, there's certainly
an opportunity to continue to move forward. I think some
of the efforts around making sure when someone has paid
their debt to society, they don't have to wear that
(19:01):
record around their neck like a scarlet letter is a
place where many Democrats and Republicans, I think, are trying
to get to. So this is a space that I'm
very cautiously optimistic about our ability to continue to find
common ground and do what's right for the American people
and American families.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Well, it's so important that you continue this effort. You know,
a critique we Democrats get all the time is that
somehow our messaging is just not as clear, as strong,
as powerful, impactful. You name whatever adjective you want as
the other side, So, Leader, what is the pitch that
you're trying to make for the party right now as
(19:42):
we are getting geared up for the critically important election
of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Well, we're going to continue to put people over politics
and to fight for things that are important to the
American people. Lower costs, better paying jobs, safer communities. Fight
for reproductive freedom because we believe in a woman's freedom
to make our own reproductive health care decisions. Defend democracy,
protect and strengthen social Security and Medicare, and certainly build
(20:09):
an economy from the middle out and the bottom up
that works for everyday Americans. You are right, Madame Secretary,
that we as Democrats, haven't always been as precise and
surgical in how we communicate with the American people. The
big challenge often has been from a messaging standpoint that
(20:30):
Republicans talk in headlines and Democrats talk and fine print.
And it comes from a good place as Democrats, because
if you care about governing, then you have to master
the fine print. And throughout the years we've done a
pretty good job at that as Democrats, going all the
way back to FDR's presidency, from Social Security to rural electrification,
(20:55):
then Medicare and Medicaid and headstart Civil Rights Act, the
Vote Rights Act, the Fair Housing Act, the Elementary and
Secondary School Act, the Higher Education Act, the Affordable Care Act,
the American Rescue Plan, the Infrastructure Investment in Jobs Act,
the Chips and Science Act, a gun safety legislation, and
the Safer Communities Act, all the way through to the
(21:16):
Inflation Reduction Act, all brought to you by your friendly
neighborhood Democratic Party. That's an incredible track record of success
and in order to do it, you have to master
the fine print. But what we've said is, at the
same time, while you govern and find print, you message,
(21:38):
you persuade, you communicate in headlines, and we've got to
draw that distinction between the two. And I think over
the last few years we've gotten better at doing that,
and certainly as we approach the twenty twenty four election,
where we'll be having a real conversation with the American
people about the differences at this moment between the two parties,
we've got to lean into those compelling headlines when we
(22:02):
have that conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, you've convinced me, I don't know that I'm your
target audience.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Everyone who knows you, who has seen you in action,
marvels at how you're able to stay so calm under pressure.
Does that come naturally to you or is it something
you've had to work on over the years.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
I certainly think that it's important for all of us
in public office, particularly during a fraught time where we're
dealing with a lot of extremism and incoming fire and
people critiquing your every move, as you've experienced throughout your career,
all of us who are in the arena experience. But
what I've concluded one is an honor and a privilege
(23:00):
to be able to be in this position of trying
to make a difference in the lives of people in
Brooklyn and New York City and throughout the country and
communicating with some of my colleagues. And I was just
having this conversation with a very high ranking democrat the
other day. I said, you know, when you think about
the best quarterbacks in the NFL, they don't get jittery
(23:24):
in the pocket when the pressure comes, even when you
have three hundred pound defensive alignment and super strong linebackers
heading in their direction. They stay in that pocket. They're calm,
cool and collected, and with the greatest degree of precision
possible try to get that ball to their receivers in
(23:45):
a way that allows the team to move forward. And
I think all of us who are in this position
when the pressure comes, understanding, as Tom Brady and others understood,
there will be times that you're going to get hit,
it's going to get a little rough, but you can
have success as long as when you're in the pocket,
you stay calm and focused on releasing the ball, getting
(24:06):
it to a receiver and hopefully getting it into the
end zone. And we're trying to get it into the
end zone on behalf of the American people.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Well, let's use that football analogy because that does connect
with a lot of people, you know, and boy do
I relate to it. It is a little challenging in
these times when people get their kicks off of insults
and attacks, to stay calm and try to keep delivering.
So now you are a legislator, you are a leader,
(24:36):
you are a husband, and you are the father of
two sons. So how do you balance your work in
public life with your family life? And you know, I'm
starting to ask all of my male guests this question
because ordinarily this is a question you only ask women
who are doing something in the public arena.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
It's a wonderful question. And you know, when one person
and serves, the entire family serves. And that's just part
of the reality of the moment that we're in. But
I think all of us and I've tried to take
this approach from the very beginning, try to shield, you know,
our family from the rough and tumble of it all,
and try to be there for our families, particularly during
(25:18):
important moments. And when I first came to the legislature,
my oldest son was five, my youngest son was two.
You know now you know one is twenty two to
the others nineteen. Even as I say that I'm going
through a midlife crisis, but I remember when I was
up in Albany, and no matter what was happening in Albany,
(25:39):
around seven seven point thirty at night, I would always
pick up the phone to check on the family, talk
to my two sons, figure out how their day went.
And when I was back at home, no matter what
would happen, whenever I had the opportunity, I always started
my day by dropping them off at school and value
that time and being in the car or walking them
(26:02):
to the bus stop, and the constancy of it and
figuring out what works for every family in creating that
consistent moment will be different, but the importance of finding
the consistent moment should be the same.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
You know, in between everything you're doing, because I know
you're crisscrossing the country, you're already raising money for Democrats.
Obviously you are fielding candidates with the hope that in
twenty twenty four we can pick up those few seats
that are needed, and then I'll be able to call
you mister speaker. But in the midst of all of this,
(26:36):
how do you find any time to relax and recharge?
Like have you seen any good movies this summer or
listen to any good music?
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Or is that just impossible?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I do try to pick up on good music, although
I've got to admit in my boys and others say
that my taste is limited because I'm still kind of
confined to early to mid nineties, early two thousands hip
hop music. But you know, that's the golden era. It's
Biggie small As, It's Tupac, It's jay Z, it's the
Wu Tang Clan, It's nas. I mean, I can go
(27:07):
on and on, but it's hard to break free from that.
So those are those continue to be my workout tracks.
We do as a family like to go to the movies.
In the most recent movie that we've been able to see,
actually the only movie over the last few months that
we've been able to see, is Oppenheimer and it was
incredibly well done. You know, I think just the history
(27:28):
and the perspective of it. As they were dealing Oppenheimer
and others were dealing with sort of the weighty issues
of the atomic bomb and what was going to happen
and how to navigate that with the challenges of World
War two was pretty intriguing and also was food for
thought for the moment that we're in right now.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Absolutely Bill and I saw it last week and we
can't stop talking about it, because you're absolutely right. It
captured a particular moment, but one that has implications for
the challenges that we face both here at home and globally.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Well.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
As I said in the beginning, I could talk to
you all day.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
I'm one of your biggest fans.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, thank you so much for joining me
on you and me both because you and me both
care a lot about our country, We care a lot
about our future, and I'm so happy that you're devoted
to public service and providing the leadership that not just
Brooklyn and New York, but the entire country and world
need well.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
So good to be with you, Madame Secretary, and thankful for,
of course your continued advice and guidance and support all
that you've done for the country, all that you continue
to do for us as House Democrats and charting a
way forward to put the country in the best possible position.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
All Right, everybody keep your eye on Hakim Jeffries. I
fully expect to calling him Speaker Jeffries before too long,
that is, if we all do our part to help
the Democrats take back the House. But you know, speaking
with a keen brought to mind the extraordinary conversation I
(29:15):
had on this podcast with his esteemed predecessor, former Speaker
of the House, now Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi. It was
just a few weeks after the shocking, horrible events of
January sixth. The courage and leadership she showed that day
will surely go down in history as one of the
(29:38):
greatest examples of congressional really American leadership in the face
of violence and intimidation. Here she is talking about her
determination to get back into the capital on that day
to finish the business of certifying the twenty twenty presidential election.
Speaker 6 (29:58):
Okay, so in a bipartisan way. Mis McConnell, Chuck Schumer
and I stain Joy was there too, and Kliburn. We
all agreed we had to go back to the Capitol.
The security was making suggestions that we would all be
transported by buses to an undisclosed location. The members would
come there and said, now the world has to see. Now,
(30:19):
just get it ready, we're coming back, and so you
give us a reasonable estimate as to when that could be.
But understand this, we're coming back and we're opening the
session in the capital of the United States.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
You can find this and lots of other conversations with
remarkable leaders by scrolling through our archive. Just go to
You and Me Both wherever you listen to podcasts. You
and Me Both is brought to you by iHeartRadio. We're
produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with
(30:57):
help from Kuma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsey Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz,
Laura Olin, Lona Valmorro and Lily Weber. Our engineer is
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(31:17):
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Speaker 1 (31:30):
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week,
You and Me Both is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both.
I am thrilled to be back for a new season
of the podcast, and especially delighted we are starting off
with such a special guest. I've been following the steady
rise of House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries for some time now,
through his years in the New York State Assembly, then
(00:28):
in Congress as a House Manager, overseeing the first impeachment
of the former president, and as the chair of the
House Democratic Caucus. But one of the most memorable moments
in his esteemed career came this past January, just after
those four chaotic days of in fighting before the House
(00:50):
Republicans finally elected Kevin McCarthy as Speaker. At the same time,
Hakim was unanimously chosen by his colleagues to be the
Democratic Leader, and in his first act in that capacity,
he took to the podium and offered his vision of
(01:10):
what Democrats in the House stand for.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
House Democrats will always put American values over autocracy.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
And he did this.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Let me remind you, in alphabetical order.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Liberty over limitation, maturity over mar a lago, normalcy over negativity,
opportunity over obstruction.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I thought it was an amazing speech, and it perfectly
demonstrated his unique qualities as a leader, drawing on his
Brooklyn roots, the Baptist Church, hip hop music, the values
of his civil servant parents, as well as his skills
as a litigator and orator. I'm so happy to share
(01:59):
my conversation with Leader Jeffries with you today.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Amen a second, theary. How are you good?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Good?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
How you doing?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I'm doing great well.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Let me welcome to the podcast, Congressman Hakim Jeffries. I
am so excited to speak with you today about a
whole bunch of things.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I literally could talk to you for hours, Hakim.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But I guess we'll try to limit it to, oh,
you know, your personal history, the future of democracy, what's
happening in the Congress, and maybe I can, you know,
let you go before dinner. I'm not sure, but it's
just such a treat to have you. And let's start
with your parents, because both of your parents were civil
(02:43):
servants and I'm wondering how that might have influenced you
to pursue the career that you are now in. Was
their dinner table conversations about justice and equity and public service.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
How did it all start.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
You know, growing up in a household with my father, who,
as you mentioned, and my mother, both of whom were
public employees throughout the entirety of their careers. My father
was a substance abuse social worker for the State of
New York during some trying times for the City of
New York, including during the nineteen seventies the heroin explosion
(03:23):
and in the nineteen eighties into the early nineties to
crack cocaine epidemic, and my mother worked for the Human
Resources Administration as a case worker. So they were very
much involved in just trying to be there for people
who were in many circumstances, going through some adversity and
(03:43):
trying to get to a better place. And while there
weren't a lot of conversations around the dinner table about
politics per se, there weren't a lot of conversations just
about helping people solve problems. And I think as I
emerged from law school into the practice of law, a
(04:04):
lot of the influence of my parents that eventually perhaps
led me to pursue public service was a desire to
want to be there for the working class neighborhoods that
I were raised in Central Brooklyn Crown Heights, but of
course growing up in Cornerstone Baptist Church and Beford Stuyvesant
(04:25):
certainly had an impact on me going in the direction
that I chose to pursue.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
You know, you came of age during the beginning and
the growth of rap, and I somehow think that's significant.
You've been known to incorporate rap lyrics into speeches, You're
known to be a big hip hop fan. Did you
ever think about being a rap artist yourself? Come on,
I won't tell anybody well.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Because it's you, Madame Secretary. I certainly did aspire to
be a hip hop artist. It didn't quite work out
for me, but when I was coming up as a
young man, and you know, in the mid to late
eighties into the early nineties, there was certainly a point
of time where I thought that perhaps I had the
skill set to be able to break through into the
(05:13):
rap industry. Didn't work out, but it's still a very
important part of sort of who I've become, and I
think that connects to what the House of Representatives in
particular is supposed to represent, which is, as you know,
the institution closest to the American people to reflect the hopes,
(05:35):
the dreams, the aspirations, the fears, the concerns, the anxieties,
and the words of the framers the passions of the
American people. And so the best representatives in the House
bring the culture, the vibrancy, the heart, the soul of
the communities that they represent at home to Washington, d C.
And for me, a large part of that certainly is
(05:56):
growing up in Central Brooklyn, growing up in the Baptis Church,
growing up during the Golden Era, and the coming of
age of hip hop music, and eventually my own professional
experiences as a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, we saw some of your lawyering skills on a
very high public platform when you were one of the
impeachment prosecutors during Trump's presidency.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
You know, I was one of those.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Who followed that closely, and I'm just wondering why was
it important to you to be part of that trial.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Well, I want to thank Speaker Pelosi, of course, as
I've done so repeatedly, for her embracing my journey in
a variety of different ways, including giving me the opportunity
to serve as an impeachment manager during that first impeachment trial,
where we were working hard to really begin the process
of vindicating the principle that in America no one is
(06:53):
above the law. And in that particular case, you had
the former president who, in our view, engaged in the
corrupt abuse of power as part of the beginning of
his effort to try to manipulate the twenty twenty presidential
election by encouraging a foreign country, Ukraine, pressuring them to
(07:15):
target an American citizen, Joe Biden, and doing so in
one of the most unfortunate ways, which is basically a
geopolitical shakedown of Ukraine, by withholding hundreds of millions of
dollars in defense support, with Russia knocking at the door
(07:36):
wanting to overrun Ukraine as we've now seen they've endeavored
to do.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
It must have been very challenging in the circumstances in
which you and the other House impeachment managers found yourselves
to just see the naked partisanship that the evidence, the law,
the clear intention of what the former president was doing
made little to no impact on the Republicans in the Senate.
(08:06):
Did any of them or any of your Republican colleagues
in the House ever say to you, Congressman that yeah, look,
they knew it was a problem, but they just couldn't
take the kind of radical action that was required to
hold Trump accountable.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
At the time, there were some Republicans who would express
concern with what they viewed as inappropriate conduct by Donald Trump,
but did largely take the position that it didn't rise
to the level of an impeachable offense. And I think
they were looking through glasses that were rose colored in
(08:46):
that regard based on partisanship, So that was quite unfortunate.
But we understood that there were three things that we
needed to do in presenting the case. We needed to
make the case to the Senate sitting as a court
in judgment of the president. We needed to present the
case to the American people. But we also needed to
(09:08):
present the case for the historical record.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I think that's a very important reminder that what you
were doing, in my view, was as much for history
as anything, to demonstrate clearly the very disturbing behavior of
the former president. And in this fast paced world we
find ourselves these days, I think it's good to remind
ourselves that building a case, building a record, making a
(09:35):
commitment to truth and to getting it out there, even
if it doesn't have the desired effect immediately, is critically important.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I think that's exactly right. And the thing that I'd
point out as well is that I think it was
doctor King who once said the time is always right
to do what's right, And the way I interpret that
is that even if the immediate results that you yield
aren't what you are aiming to accomplish, eventually you're going
(10:07):
to get to the right place. But it has to
start by leaning in and just elevating truth and facts
and perspective, even if some people throughout the country aren't ready.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
To receive it well, or, as scripture tells us, do
not grow weary in doing good, because eventually you will
reap the harvest. But sometimes there are difficult boulders in
your path, and that's particularly true in your position as
a leader. You've been both an unofficial and now official
(10:40):
leader in the party for years, and I'm just wondering,
you know, what did Speaker Pelosi have to tell you
or advise you when she passed that leadership baton. I've
known her, as you well know, for many, many years,
and there really isn't a shrewder mind and a more
(11:00):
effective political organizer in the Democratic Party and certainly one
of the most successful speakers in our country's history.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
But our question, I thinks you will go down as
certainly the greatest speaker of all time and what she's
been able to deliver for the American people even with
narrow majorities in the House. But what I've learned from
her throughout the years and as we made the transition,
is that you know, it's important to find the highest
(11:30):
common denominator now prior to that, it often involves some
enthusiastic debates. That happening, and we win no stranger to
enthusiastic debates, particularly in the House of Representatives. That's true,
and we kind of work through those family dynamics. But
at the end of the day, what's always been important
in terms of Speaker Pelosi's leadership, and I've tried to
(11:52):
follow along in this regard, is there comes a point
where you have to make a decision to go forward,
and we make that decision, and to go forward, you
do that by finding the highest common denominator a months
a variety of different perspectives, and in my view, you
then advance the ball make the progress that you can
make and where you fall short, you live to fight
(12:14):
another day. As America continues on March, total more perfect Union.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
We're taking a quick break.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Stay with us, just like you.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
I've been criticized by some that quote I'm not progressive enough.
In response to that, I said back in the twenty
sixteen campaign, I'm a progressive who likes to get things done.
So for my views on your leadership, I think you're
playing it exactly right. But I think a lot of
people don't fully appreciate the extraordinary balancing act that you
(12:59):
and Gauge an every day to keep your caucus together.
And it's been miraculous how united it has been. And
I give you big, you know, plaudits for that, but
maybe give us a little inside view of how you
do that every day, because that's the real key to
leadership in a big, contentious, pluralistic body like the House
(13:22):
Democratic Caucus.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Well, some people may say that the House is, you know,
by nature, a chaotic institution, and I don't disagree with
that sentiment. I do think that whoever organizes the dynamic
chaos the best yields the best results, and from my standpoint,
the way to try to do that is to authentically
(13:46):
value the perspectives of every single member of the House
Democratic Caucus, from the most progressive member on one end
of the spectrum representative of Ocasio Cortes, to the most
moderate centrist member like a John Scottheimer, and all points
in between, and to really listen, to authentically value the
(14:07):
fact that they each, along with every other member of
the House Democratic Caucus, was elected to do a job
on behalf of the communities that their privileged to represent.
To have those conversations sometimes noisy ones amongst us as
a group collectively, but to always be guided by that
north star of finding common ground to advance the ball
(14:30):
for the American people. And I think as I transitioned
into this position having served as Chair of the House
Democratic Caucus for four years, where I did have the
responsibility to interact with individual members and the different parts
of the Democratic Caucus. And we've got everything from progressives
to New Dems, to Blue Dogs to problem solvers, to
(14:50):
the Congression of Black Caucus, the Congression of the Vanic Caucus,
the Asian and Pacific Islander Caucus, the Women's Caucus, the
LGBTQ Caucus. We got it all. And that's the beauty
of what we are as House Democrats, And it's like,
how do you bring the orchestra together? You respect everyone's
craft as individuals, but know that you can make the
(15:12):
best possible music when at the end of the day
we're all working together.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I love that metaphor the orchestra. That's a great way
of talking about it.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
You know.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I know one of the key issues you are passionate
about is criminal justice reform. And you've actually made some
progress now, and you did so with some Republican bipartisan support.
So what is next in the reform agenda for helping
to create a more equitable, just criminal justice system.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Well, I was delighted to be able to be part
of the effort a few years ago to work on
criminal justice reform in a bipartisan way, to try to
roll back some of the excesses of what I think
most people would view as the failed War on drugs,
and to to get us to a better place where
we both were leaning into public safety, but also helping
(16:06):
people successfully transition back into society, become productive citizens, save
taxpayer dollars, and provide individuals with the skills, the education,
the mental health intervention to be able to be successful
as returning citizens, and we were able to find a
(16:27):
path forward, eventually resulting in the first step back that
brought together Democrats and Republicans, the left and the right,
the ACLU and the Koch Brothers, the NAACP and the
Heritage Foundation, and all points in between. And it was
part of an approach that while you were in the Senate,
Manham Secretary, you leaned into this aggressively as well, bringing
(16:49):
together what I would call a coalition of the unusual suspects.
And when you can do that, you can really make
legislative magic and capture the attention and imagination of the
American people. And one of the reasons why it's possible
to do that and why I think there are future
opportunities in the criminal justice reform space is because Democrats
(17:11):
and Republicans have arrived at the need to deal with
over criminalization and mass incarceration in America connected to their
own authentic ideologies, you know, as democrats and progressives. Many
of us arrive at that place because of views of
social justice or racial justice or economic justice, and this
(17:34):
concept of liberty and justice for all in America and
bringing that to life for the greatest number of people,
But many of my Republican colleagues have authentically got to
the same place, perhaps for different reasons, but those reasons
are authentic to them. Fiscal conservatives concluding that billions of
dollars in mass incarceration without resulting public safety benefits is
(17:56):
a failed government program and a waste of taxpayer dollars.
Many of the religious right and the Christian conservatives who
have been involved in this effort have come to that
place that everyone in society deserves a second chance, that
we all fall short in the eyes of the Lord,
and the libertarians have concluded individuals like Ram Paul, who
(18:17):
I may disagree with on a whole host of issues,
but on criminal justice reform, we're in lockstep because they
generally don't like what they view as government overreach, and
all of us have been able to make the case
that if you don't like government overreach, one of the
areas where it can be particularly damaging to the American
people is when the government can, unjustifiably in some instances,
(18:41):
take away your life or your liberty. And so, because
we have authentically arrived at the same place, there's certainly
an opportunity to continue to move forward. I think some
of the efforts around making sure when someone has paid
their debt to society, they don't have to wear that
(19:01):
record around their neck like a scarlet letter is a
place where many Democrats and Republicans, I think, are trying
to get to. So this is a space that I'm
very cautiously optimistic about our ability to continue to find
common ground and do what's right for the American people
and American families.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Well, it's so important that you continue this effort. You know,
a critique we Democrats get all the time is that
somehow our messaging is just not as clear, as strong,
as powerful, impactful. You name whatever adjective you want as
the other side, So, Leader, what is the pitch that
you're trying to make for the party right now as
(19:42):
we are getting geared up for the critically important election
of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Well, we're going to continue to put people over politics
and to fight for things that are important to the
American people. Lower costs, better paying jobs, safer communities. Fight
for reproductive freedom because we believe in a woman's freedom
to make our own reproductive health care decisions. Defend democracy,
protect and strengthen social Security and Medicare, and certainly build
(20:09):
an economy from the middle out and the bottom up
that works for everyday Americans. You are right, Madame Secretary,
that we as Democrats, haven't always been as precise and
surgical in how we communicate with the American people. The
big challenge often has been from a messaging standpoint that
(20:30):
Republicans talk in headlines and Democrats talk and fine print.
And it comes from a good place as Democrats, because
if you care about governing, then you have to master
the fine print. And throughout the years we've done a
pretty good job at that as Democrats, going all the
way back to FDR's presidency, from Social Security to rural electrification,
(20:55):
then Medicare and Medicaid and headstart Civil Rights Act, the
Vote Rights Act, the Fair Housing Act, the Elementary and
Secondary School Act, the Higher Education Act, the Affordable Care Act,
the American Rescue Plan, the Infrastructure Investment in Jobs Act,
the Chips and Science Act, a gun safety legislation, and
the Safer Communities Act, all the way through to the
(21:16):
Inflation Reduction Act, all brought to you by your friendly
neighborhood Democratic Party. That's an incredible track record of success
and in order to do it, you have to master
the fine print. But what we've said is, at the
same time, while you govern and find print, you message,
(21:38):
you persuade, you communicate in headlines, and we've got to
draw that distinction between the two. And I think over
the last few years we've gotten better at doing that,
and certainly as we approach the twenty twenty four election,
where we'll be having a real conversation with the American
people about the differences at this moment between the two parties,
we've got to lean into those compelling headlines when we
(22:02):
have that conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, you've convinced me, I don't know that I'm your
target audience.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Everyone who knows you, who has seen you in action,
marvels at how you're able to stay so calm under pressure.
Does that come naturally to you or is it something
you've had to work on over the years.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
I certainly think that it's important for all of us
in public office, particularly during a fraught time where we're
dealing with a lot of extremism and incoming fire and
people critiquing your every move, as you've experienced throughout your career,
all of us who are in the arena experience. But
what I've concluded one is an honor and a privilege
(23:00):
to be able to be in this position of trying
to make a difference in the lives of people in
Brooklyn and New York City and throughout the country and
communicating with some of my colleagues. And I was just
having this conversation with a very high ranking democrat the
other day. I said, you know, when you think about
the best quarterbacks in the NFL, they don't get jittery
(23:24):
in the pocket when the pressure comes, even when you
have three hundred pound defensive alignment and super strong linebackers
heading in their direction. They stay in that pocket. They're calm,
cool and collected, and with the greatest degree of precision
possible try to get that ball to their receivers in
(23:45):
a way that allows the team to move forward. And
I think all of us who are in this position
when the pressure comes, understanding, as Tom Brady and others understood,
there will be times that you're going to get hit,
it's going to get a little rough, but you can
have success as long as when you're in the pocket,
you stay calm and focused on releasing the ball, getting
(24:06):
it to a receiver and hopefully getting it into the
end zone. And we're trying to get it into the
end zone on behalf of the American people.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Well, let's use that football analogy because that does connect
with a lot of people, you know, and boy do
I relate to it. It is a little challenging in
these times when people get their kicks off of insults
and attacks, to stay calm and try to keep delivering.
So now you are a legislator, you are a leader,
(24:36):
you are a husband, and you are the father of
two sons. So how do you balance your work in
public life with your family life? And you know, I'm
starting to ask all of my male guests this question
because ordinarily this is a question you only ask women
who are doing something in the public arena.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
It's a wonderful question. And you know, when one person
and serves, the entire family serves. And that's just part
of the reality of the moment that we're in. But
I think all of us and I've tried to take
this approach from the very beginning, try to shield, you know,
our family from the rough and tumble of it all,
and try to be there for our families, particularly during
(25:18):
important moments. And when I first came to the legislature,
my oldest son was five, my youngest son was two.
You know now you know one is twenty two to
the others nineteen. Even as I say that I'm going
through a midlife crisis, but I remember when I was
up in Albany, and no matter what was happening in Albany,
(25:39):
around seven seven point thirty at night, I would always
pick up the phone to check on the family, talk
to my two sons, figure out how their day went.
And when I was back at home, no matter what
would happen, whenever I had the opportunity, I always started
my day by dropping them off at school and value
that time and being in the car or walking them
(26:02):
to the bus stop, and the constancy of it and
figuring out what works for every family in creating that
consistent moment will be different, but the importance of finding
the consistent moment should be the same.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
You know, in between everything you're doing, because I know
you're crisscrossing the country, you're already raising money for Democrats.
Obviously you are fielding candidates with the hope that in
twenty twenty four we can pick up those few seats
that are needed, and then I'll be able to call
you mister speaker. But in the midst of all of this,
(26:36):
how do you find any time to relax and recharge?
Like have you seen any good movies this summer or
listen to any good music?
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Or is that just impossible?
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I do try to pick up on good music, although
I've got to admit in my boys and others say
that my taste is limited because I'm still kind of
confined to early to mid nineties, early two thousands hip
hop music. But you know, that's the golden era. It's
Biggie small As, It's Tupac, It's jay Z, it's the
Wu Tang Clan, It's nas. I mean, I can go
(27:07):
on and on, but it's hard to break free from that.
So those are those continue to be my workout tracks.
We do as a family like to go to the movies.
In the most recent movie that we've been able to see,
actually the only movie over the last few months that
we've been able to see, is Oppenheimer and it was
incredibly well done. You know, I think just the history
(27:28):
and the perspective of it. As they were dealing Oppenheimer
and others were dealing with sort of the weighty issues
of the atomic bomb and what was going to happen
and how to navigate that with the challenges of World
War two was pretty intriguing and also was food for
thought for the moment that we're in right now.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Absolutely Bill and I saw it last week and we
can't stop talking about it, because you're absolutely right. It
captured a particular moment, but one that has implications for
the challenges that we face both here at home and globally.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Well.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
As I said in the beginning, I could talk to
you all day.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
I'm one of your biggest fans.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, thank you so much for joining me
on you and me both because you and me both
care a lot about our country, We care a lot
about our future, and I'm so happy that you're devoted
to public service and providing the leadership that not just
Brooklyn and New York, but the entire country and world
need well.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
So good to be with you, Madame Secretary, and thankful for,
of course your continued advice and guidance and support all
that you've done for the country, all that you continue
to do for us as House Democrats and charting a
way forward to put the country in the best possible position.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
All Right, everybody keep your eye on Hakim Jeffries. I
fully expect to calling him Speaker Jeffries before too long,
that is, if we all do our part to help
the Democrats take back the House. But you know, speaking
with a keen brought to mind the extraordinary conversation I
(29:15):
had on this podcast with his esteemed predecessor, former Speaker
of the House, now Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi. It was
just a few weeks after the shocking, horrible events of
January sixth. The courage and leadership she showed that day
will surely go down in history as one of the
(29:38):
greatest examples of congressional really American leadership in the face
of violence and intimidation. Here she is talking about her
determination to get back into the capital on that day
to finish the business of certifying the twenty twenty presidential election.
Speaker 6 (29:58):
Okay, so in a bipartisan way. Mis McConnell, Chuck Schumer
and I stain Joy was there too, and Kliburn. We
all agreed we had to go back to the Capitol.
The security was making suggestions that we would all be
transported by buses to an undisclosed location. The members would
come there and said, now the world has to see. Now,
(30:19):
just get it ready, we're coming back, and so you
give us a reasonable estimate as to when that could be.
But understand this, we're coming back and we're opening the
session in the capital of the United States.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
You can find this and lots of other conversations with
remarkable leaders by scrolling through our archive. Just go to
You and Me Both wherever you listen to podcasts. You
and Me Both is brought to you by iHeartRadio. We're
produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with
(30:57):
help from Kuma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsey Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz,
Laura Olin, Lona Valmorro and Lily Weber. Our engineer is
Zach McNeice, and the original music is by Forrest Gray.
If you like You and Me Both, tell someone else
(31:17):
about it. And if you're not already a subscriber, what
are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You and
Me Both on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week,
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