March 7, 2023 • 41 mins
You and Me Both is between seasons right now, but with the Academy Awards right around the corner, Hillary could not wait to share her conversation with multiple award-winning actor Frances McDormand.
Frances is now up for another Oscar, this time as producer of the powerful new film “Women Talking” (in which she also appears). The film, directed by Sarah Polley and based on the novel by Miriam Towes, is about a group of Mennonite matriarchs who gather in a hayloft to decide, collectively, what they will do in the wake of a wave of sexual assaults committed against them by men in their community.
Hillary talks to Frances about the genesis of this project, and the challenging, universal questions posed by the film. They also look back at Frances’ remarkable career—the brave choices she’s made, and the iconic roles she’s given us, from police chief Marge Gunderson in “Fargo” to a displaced, widowed worker seeking community in “Nomadland”— and forward, to what Frances sees for herself on the horizon.
You can find a full transcript HERE.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm
Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. We're
between seasons right now, but I couldn't wait to share
with you this conversation I had with one of my
favorite actors and favorite people about her latest project and
(00:20):
about the brave choices she's made throughout her extraordinary career.
Like so many of you listening, I've been a fan
of Francis McDorman from the first time I saw her
on the big screen. Many of you probably know her
from her breakout performance in the nineteen ninety six film Fargo,
(00:42):
written and directed by the Cohen Brothers, that is, her
husband Joel Cohen and his brother Ethan. In that movie,
Francis plays Marge Gunderson, a very pregnant, very down to
earth police chief in small town Minnesota. I'd be very
surprised if our suspect was from Brainard. Yeah, and I'll
(01:04):
tell you what from his footprint. He looks like a
big fella. You see something down there, chief? No, I
just think I'm gonna bear jeez kargie. Yeah, I'm fine,
it's just morning sickness. Since then, she's played many other
(01:25):
unforgettable roles on stage and screen, including her award winning
performances in Olive Kitteridge, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, and
Nomad Land. Francis has also been a vocal advocate for
expanding access to more women and people of color in Hollywood.
(01:47):
At the twenty eighteen OSCAR ceremony, she made headlines with
her acceptance speech for Best Actress when she invited every
female nominee in every category to stay and with her.
The actors, Marilick, you do it. Everybody else will come on.
The filmmakers, the producers, the directors, the writers, the cinematographers,
(02:12):
the composers, with the songwriters, the designers. I have two
words to leave with you tonight, ladies and gentlemen. Inclusion writer.
That's when many of us first heard the term inclusion writer.
Something she encouraged that actors put in their contracts, stipulating
(02:35):
that a certain proportion of the cast or crew must
be women or people of color. Now Francis is up
for another Oscar, this time for the remarkable film Women Talking,
which she produced and appears in. The film is based
on a novel by Miriam Taves and was written and
(02:56):
directed by Sarah POLLI we had so much to talk about,
and I'm delighted to share with you my conversation with
Francis McDorman. Hello Francis, Hello Hillary. I remember, God was
it seven years ago, twenty fifteen, we watched the Academy
(03:16):
Awards together. Oh, at our mutual great friends home. I
remember that too, you know what? And may I call
you Hillary, Secretary Clinton? Yes, you better, Yes, indeed, thank
you so very much, because I remember because we have
a long tradition of being very snarky while watching. And
(03:36):
I remember I started talking about somebody's outfit, which I
love to do. It's a fashion show, right, it's a thing. Yes,
it's kind of part of the sport. And I remember
looking over at you and you looked at me quizzically,
and I realized, oh, I have to explain that part
of it is just being b I tch y. It's
(03:58):
like sports commentary. Are you going this year? Our film
has been invited, I would hope, So I want to
talk to you about that, but first let's get into
the important stuff like are you going? Well? You know what, Hillary,
it is something to talk about because it's a weird
in my little pocket of the universe, called the film industry,
which is, in fact, I want to remind everyone a
(04:20):
very small part of the larger entertainment business that TV
show is not my favorite part of it. I call
it the convention. Our family calls it the award convention.
That's a good description. It's like a car show, yes,
And they roll us out every year and then they
roll us back in the garage, and I kind of
(04:42):
feel like I couldn't have had a more wonderful time
over the years going. But every time that I or
some project I've been involved in is invited, I reassess it.
And so I'm still reassessing that the film's going. And
I think a really important thing for us, Sarah Paully
(05:06):
the director, and Dedie Gardner are producing partner, is that
the invitation that we've been extended. We're very interested in
making that a very loud statement about the omissions that
have been made this year. No women were nominated for director,
were they? And people of color? It is so I mean,
(05:26):
so bald that it's kind of hard to ignore. Well,
there's no ignoring it. There's no ignoring it. There's no
ignoring it. And I think why I'm saying that because
when you know, when this podcast has aired. In our
conversation is you know, a part of the conversation that
other people are having about the film, we're going to
be already engaged in a process of saying, if you
(05:48):
are interested in the success of Women Talking, you're also
interested in the success of The Woman King by Gina
prince Blythewood Exactly. You're interested in the success of till
you're interested in the success of many films that were
made this year that were helmed by women, and they
had the exact same interest in changing the industries as
(06:09):
Dedy Gardner, Sarah Paulie, and Francis McDorman have. Yeah, I
love that, Francis, we're talking about your most recent movie,
Women Talking, because the film is so extraordinary to me.
It's what film should be explained for our listeners who
haven't seen it yet. I hope there's not too many
of them, but there will be some sort of what
(06:31):
the core of the story is about. It's based on
a true story, and it's based on a horrific event
that happened in a Mennonite community in Bolivia that was
reported on actually in vice. It turned out that for
over several years, the men of the community used a
cow tranquilizer. They spread it into women's rooms a nest
(06:53):
size the women, and while they were unconscious they the
women were raped over and over over several years, females
horrifically from three years to eighty years old. And when
the women woke up, battered and bruised, not understanding what
had happened, some of them pregnant. They were told by
(07:13):
the men of the community and the male leaders of
the community that it was in their imagination or they
were being tempted by the devil. They were basically, as
the term is now, gas lit. So finally some of
the men were caught actually climbing into the one of
the women's rooms, and eight of the men were taken
(07:34):
by the community and locked into a shed. Finally, the
Bolivion government found out about the incident and took them
to jail. So what Miriam Tave's book Women Talking did
is took it from that moment forward and said what
if What if a trial did not happen, but the
women decided to vote while the men were away to
(07:57):
post bail for the men that were jailed. What if
the women voted to either do nothing to forgive the
men as they were being asked to do by the
patriarchal leaders, to stay and fight the men for what
they had done, or to leave and begin a new
world somewhere else. And so Miriam's book starts with that
vote and the women gathering in the hayloft to discuss forgiveness, complicity, retribution, revenge,
(08:27):
the future. And this is a group of women who
have been kept illiterate because they're not educated past a
certain point. So what I love about what Miriam did
is she shows a group of women who, yes, they're illiterate,
but their imaginations are broad, and their sense of faith
and justice is deepened, you know, has equanimity. You know.
(08:53):
I read the book when it came out and it
just was so shocking and painful. And then the way
you portray it in the film is to me just
an extraordinary You look into human nature and the kind
of sense of justice that can be ignited even in
(09:16):
people who have been literally separated from the world. I
thought it was just an extraordinary film. Thank you, And
I have to tell you so much credit goes to
Sarah Pauly and her not only her skill as a storyteller,
she also has a very personal sense of justice. She
(09:38):
has a long history of political activism, so she understands
it as a piece of I like to call it
good propaganda, because I think there is good propaganda. I
think that's it ignites conversation, and you know, one of
the great things we've been able to do with the film.
You know, films are meant to be seen in a
(09:58):
dark room with other people with disparate political beliefs and
religious faiths and backgrounds. But they come into that space
and they share the same story. That's the beauty of film,
and then they talk about it, and then they talk
about it and they can't leave the lobby for a while.
Those are the best moments, right when you're suspended in
(10:18):
that space for a while with a group of strangers. Unfortunately,
that's not happening as often as we would like it too.
But what we have been able to do is have
a lot of screenings on college campuses and invite professors
who are not teaching film, but they're teaching religious studies, ethics,
gender studies, and the conversations that are happening out of
(10:42):
those screenings have been delicious, absolutely delicious. And I was
also interested in the character that you played. I mean
it was a small role in the film, but a
very powerful one. And without being a spoiler, you know,
your character is severe, intimidating, resistant to change, really a
(11:07):
defender of the status quo, someone who has bought, hook
line and sinker everything that she'd been indoctrinated by and
lived throughout her long life. Was she hard to play
for you? You know, Hillary, I really am so appreciative
(11:27):
of the way Sarah cast me in this film and
that we kind of cast me together as Scarface Jans.
First of all, just who wouldn't want to play a
character called Scarface Jans. That being said, more importantly, there
were three positions posited in the film. As I said before,
(11:47):
do nothing to forgive the men, stay and fight, the
men and leave. There were three matriarchs in the Hayloft, Scarface,
Agatta and Greta. All the women of the community, three
hundred or more women in the community. Their fates were
being decided by these three families. Scarface represents a large
(12:10):
group of the women in that community who, for whatever reason,
fear complacency, the status quo, whatever it is. They have
chosen to do nothing and forgive because they believe that
their place in heaven is threatened if they don't. So
I felt that by casting someone who an audience expects
(12:32):
to turn up more in the conversation, it keeps that
voice alive. By casting me, even though what I love
is also that Scarface Jans and her family, her daughter
and granddaughter don't have a lot of dialogue. Most of
our scenes are just seeing us in our life, silently
(12:53):
in our life, going about our life, with the pressure
of this decision hanging over us. But I think it's
really important to keep their voice alive, those other women's
voice alive. Well, it's a very realistic set of options,
and we are presented with them every single day of
our life as women do nothing, stay and fight or
(13:14):
walk away exactly, Oh, Hillary, don't you know it? I
do know it. It's sort of you know, it's just
a reflection. Even though this is a community that most
of us will never experience, never be part of, it
is engaged in a universal decision making. Absolutely, it's embroidered
in a very tight, cruel work of our life. If
(13:36):
you want to use a metaphor, it's exactly right. Well,
the last question I wanted to ask about the film,
and you've mentioned Sarah Paully, the director, the screenwriter. Was
it one of your most unusual but gratifying experiences to
work essentially with an all women team. How did that
(13:57):
feel different to you than you're career in so many
other settings. Yeah, So I read the book, I optioned
the book. I immediately took it to Didi Gardner, who
is one of the partners in a company called Plan
B because I had been really interested in the films
they've made, Moonlight, Twelve Years of Slave, So I sent
(14:19):
the book to did. She immediately got in touch. We
got in a room together and she was just passionate
and one of the people that we first started talking
about with Sarah Pauly, because she really is an autour.
She takes it from the first step to the last step.
So we got in touch with her and she said,
(14:39):
I have three children, I love my life in Toronto.
How do we do this so that I can have
a life? And we said, we're really interested in that.
So let's have short days, let's have childcare, Let's find
the farm, live on the farm, shoot it on the farm,
do it in the summer when you're kids are off
(15:00):
of school. And we were able to accomplish maybe not
all those things, but because we were a female led organization,
mostly family oriented, it changed our perception of everything. We're
(15:20):
taking a quick break. Coming up, Francis shares how she
went from supporting actor to leading protagonist on screen and
in her own life. Now, let's switch gears a bit
(15:43):
and talk about how you got into acting in the
first place. Where did that come from? I like starting
with when I was in second grade to kind of
lead up to this point in my professional life. You know,
I lived in small rural cities towns most of my life,
and my local library had a summer program where if
(16:06):
you read ten books, you got your polaroid put on
the corkboard at the end of the summer. And I
read ten books, most of them were biographies of women
explorers and writers, and I got my picture put up
on the corkboard Hillary and it never stopped. And then
(16:26):
there was a point in my when I was a
teenager when literature that had already become my fantasy life
became a social life. When I started reading Shakespeare and
an English teacher said, let's put on some scenes after school,
And then I realized that literature could become something that
was actually with other people in a room, and then
(16:49):
that grew into my becoming an actor. How did you
translate those experiences as first a child, then a tea
major into the awareness that hey, I can do that.
Were there people in addition to the teacher who encouraged you,
where their role models that you saw out in the
(17:10):
world that you said to yourself, Hey, that's what I
want to be. Yeah, and you're absolutely right. It started
with these very rare individuals who in the educational system
because I, you know, I come from a working class background,
and so I went through public school, you know, in
the fifties and sixties, and those teachers recognized because I
(17:33):
was a very quiet, shy person. I wasn't one of
those children who want everybody said, oh, she'll be an actor,
because I was always app dancing or something. Now, I
was always in the corner reading, But there was something
about it was where my intellect lies. I have an
intuitive intellect. I don't necessarily have a you know something
that my husband Joel and I are always talking about.
(17:55):
I bring him towards the corporal and he brings me
towards the intellectual. But there's an intelligence there, and I
think that you know, in public school, when I was
growing up, with things like wood shop and car mechanics
and technological classes, everyone's intellect was found. If you couldn't
(18:16):
pass math because you just did not have that kind
of brain, but someone saw you build a bookcase or
put together a car engine, they understood that you had
that kind of intellect, and then they could they shepherd
you towards those kind of futures. So I had teachers
who saw that I was not passing math and I
(18:39):
was not passing science, but I couldn't stay out of
the books in English and all kinds of literature was
my candy, was my joy. It wasn't just from a
theatrical point of view, but they would ask me if
I wanted to stay after class and read other Shakespeare plays.
They would give me books to read. When I was
in college, there was no theory or major. I was
(19:00):
the only theater major in college. But the head of
the theater program, doctor Judy, said, you need to go
to graduate school. You need to be among your peers
and have three more years to test yourself against this
thing you love. And then I went to drama school.
At Yale, and I was given the opportunity to think
of myself as an artist. For three years, I went
(19:22):
on full scholarship, I had work study, I had to
work my way through that. But by the time I
got out of that seven years, I believed to myself
and I quickly started had to do a past's Blue
Ribbon commercial to play the rent, but I did it
as an actor. I paid my rent as an actor. Oh,
I love that. And you have played a series of
(19:45):
iconic women that we all know and we think about.
Was that something that just kind of evolved? I sank.
You know, here we are at a certain age, right, Hillary,
I'm sixty five. Love of acting started when I was fourteen,
so I've done it for fifty years, let's say. And
(20:06):
I would say the first half of my professional career
I played supporting roles to male protagonists, especially in film,
not on stage. Stage has always offered female actors a
wider range of three dimensional characters, but the majority of
the work I did in film was supporting roles. And
(20:29):
I think that because I was really born to be
a leading actor on stage. That's kind of what I
was trained to do, is play the cannon of all
those Lady Macbeth Clytemnestra had a gobbler, all the ones
that you you know that you would read on on
Glenda Jackson's resume. Yes, but I think that I got
(20:51):
very very good at playing supporting roles, as many women
do in our lives, not just on stage and film,
but in my life. I boarded one of the best
filmmakers of our generation. And then when our son graduated
from high school about a year before that, I knew
(21:11):
that I would be bereafed. Being introduced to my son
and being privy to his becoming an adult is really
the greatest gift of my life. So I knew that
I would be bereft and I needed to focus on
something else to get out of his way. And so
that's when I optioned all of Kittridge and started developing that,
(21:33):
and that's when I started playing leading roles in film
and I have since then. What a creative way to
deal with your empty nest syndrome. Yeah, I love that
because you loved being a mom and you loved taking
care of a house. I mean, you've I've read that,
You've said that before. It's I have to say, let's
(21:54):
face it. It's sometimes a better hobby than a full
time job. I really like it as a high. Sometimes
it's like, well, somebody else, Like I'm not going to
go over there and pick up that anymore. Somebody else,
I'm going to try to train myself not to pick
that up anymore. But I think, yeah, I think that
there's something about becoming the leading protagonist in your life.
(22:14):
Is there's something kind of metaphorical about it. You did
and you have and you know, when I think about
the iconic women that you've played, Marge Gunderson and Fargo,
Olive Kitteridge, Fern in nomad Land, they all seem in
their own ways, you know, very iconoclastic, eccentric, quirky, you know,
(22:39):
in Three Billboards, obviously outraged. I mean, there's just strong emotion,
but also a sense of commitment to living a life
on her own terms. How do you think about these
characters in relation to your own life right now? When
I first came to New York, Killery and I was
(23:02):
offered a meeting with the casting director, she sat me
down and she said, here's some things you need to know.
You got to get that tooth fixed. I had a
little chip in my front tooth. She said, you have
to learn how to use some makeup and wear high heels,
because you'd make a great pioneer woman. But they're not
making that many Westerns these days. So I went out
(23:23):
her door not very happy, and spent a few days
thinking about that, and lo and behold. I think if
you look at those characters that you've mentioned, Fern, Mildred Pays,
Marge Gunderson, Olive Kittridge, there's something about them that I
think belies her advice, that they are those kind of women,
(23:45):
a kind of American iconic women who they're like standing stones, right,
They're like those rocks out in the desert somewhere. Yes, exactly.
So I think that's kind of what they characters represent.
But I also I'm really interested also in that. So
all of Kitch was adapted from the novel by Elizabeth
(24:07):
Strout by Jane Anderson. Nomad Land was created by Chloe Jow.
Both Marge Gunderson and Mildred Hayes were written by Joel
and Nathan Cohen and Martin mcdonnough, respectively. For me, those
all the parts were written with me in mind, and
not only me in mind. Francis McDorman. But the characters
(24:28):
I played, so Fern was building off Mildred Hayes, Marge
Gunderson and all of Kittridge as much as other characters
in kind of modern classic iconography female iconography. Right, They're
all built on these iconic figures, not just me, right, right.
It wasn't Francis McDorman. It was like these iconic ideas
of woman, and in some cases, like with Mildred Hayes,
(24:52):
I actually I thought of John Wayne a lot when
I was playing the part. So there's a lot of
kind of trying to the idea of how can you
attach to these characters that have to take you through
this landscape. I've always thought of my job as I'm
in a service position. I'm serving the role that's offered,
and that as I've gotten older, I'm able to help
(25:15):
develop those characters with the storytellers more and more. But
I'm serving the characters as much as I'm serving the story.
That's such a good way of putting it. I mean,
because these characters deserve to be seen and heard, and
you have done that so beautifully that these women become
(25:36):
almost part of our consciousness, our collective consciousness, and I hope.
So I believe well, speaking for myself, I believe that.
And may I add something to this that we know? Yes,
A journalist said after watching them, I think it was
Mildred Hayes and Three Billboards. He said, watching my face
(25:57):
was like visiting a national park, which I love because
I have valleys, I have maces and peaks that I've earned,
every single one of them, every single one of them.
And you have shown a real fearlessness in rejecting a
(26:18):
lot of these unrealistic and very restrictive Hollywood beauty standards.
Where does that fearlessness come from? Trust me, I think
about it a lot. I have to think about it
a lot. Sometimes my husband will say, will you please
shut up? I'm tired of hearing you say that somebody
(26:41):
are so and so you know it's like, but so
you tell him you are talking to a national park.
Respect Please, you better watch out, mister, right We're talking
to a national park right here. But you know, I
also think there's a couple of things, and he certainly
has something to do with it, because I've often said
(27:01):
when my husband looks at me the face that he reflects,
he likes what he sees. If he didn't like what
he saw, my face would be looking like his, and
so I would have a lot more lines on my
face that were sadder. But I have happy lines because
that's what I'm reflecting. But I also think it's in reaction.
(27:23):
You know. I give a lot of credit to that
casting director because I left that room saying, Okay, I'm
not what they expect, but they're gonna need one of
me one day, and I'm going to be the best
one of that that I can be. If they need
somebody bigger or shorter, or this or that, I'll be
(27:44):
that other thing. I'm gonna be unique. I'm gonna be me.
Every story needs him. We're taking a quick break. Stay
with us, you know. I also love the fact that
(28:06):
you have done both stage and film work, and you've
even done experimental theater with companies like the Wooster Group.
What keeps luring you back? So Liz lacomp who is
the director of the Wooster Group, and Kate Vauk, who
is one of the founding members of that group, they're
dear friends. When my son was starting kindergarten and I
(28:31):
knew that I wanted to stay in one place. Joel
and I wanted to be in one place. We raised
our son in New York City. We wanted him to
have consistency because the rest of our life was not
going to be consistent. So I knew that once he
started school, I was going to stay in New York
more and do see it or more. And I went
to them and I said, I've got to have work.
I know I need work. I need consistent focus. I
(28:54):
need to keep my engine alive. I've got to keep
it well tuned. I need a place to go. And
they said, come here, because it's a matriarchal organization. And
so I was able to leave to pick him up
for school. I was able to bring him there if
I needed to. I was able to skip a day
if he had a doctor's a point. It was just
(29:16):
an It was understood, no questions asked. It wasn't just that.
It's also the way that they make art. They make
art in a very extraordinary way, and I think that
the art that they produce is some of the most
for me. It's where I did my classical performances. You know,
instead of a more conventional way of doing the classics,
(29:38):
it was a much more avant garde way of doing
the classics, So it just suited me more than say
a production at the Globe or on Broadway or the
West End. So for me, it was not only something
that challenged me as an artist, it really gave me
a home. It gave me a theatrical home. But I
(29:59):
love the theme that is running through this conversation about
the importance of creating situations like you did with women
talking having a female sensibility, about childcare, about shooting around
children's summer vacations. Now talking about you know what you
found with the Wooster group being able to pick your
(30:22):
son up at school and do what you needed to do.
I mean, it's so refreshing and still so rare. Institutions
are not willing to make those kinds of decisions that
enable more women to pursue their potential and also at
the same time do what is critically important, you know,
(30:45):
have relationships, raise children, take care of elderly parents, whatever
it might be. Absolutely Hillary. I mean, you know, I
recently looked up the phrase, and I know that you
heard it and it resonated for you. You can have
it all. And what's interesting is that so who originally
said that, I believe it was Betty for Dan and
(31:06):
then Oprah I think is credited with the second part
of that statement, which is very important. You can have
it all, just not all at once exactly. So I
think that part of my young feminist mind at fourteen
and fifteen said, oh, I can have it all, then
I'm gonna have it all, and rocket really exhausted. It's
(31:32):
really hard to fucking have it all. Got to put
a lot of things in place. So let's take for example,
because you know nobody is listening to this podcast if
they don't understand that from your perspective, Secretary Clinton, So
let's take it from Glenda Jackson's perspective. She didn't decide
(31:53):
to become a producer of film. She decided to go
into the parliament years and change policy. Now I'm not
saying that any actors should become a politician. For God's sake,
we know how that can work out. But I think
it is interesting that if you put the kind of
(32:14):
energy that we you know that actors and producers and
directors and filmmakers have exercise and practiced into activism. Right,
Like I was saying before, there's good propaganda. There's really
good ways of understanding who your audience is and how
they can be educated. So I think, you know, let's
(32:35):
have it all. Why not, Let's let's have it all right,
and also give the opportunity for some kind of I believe.
And what would I often say to you know, when
we're having screening with college students. I'm not interested in
taking down the patriarchy that's going to happen naturally as
a natural evolution of humankind. But I think what I'm
interested in is really illuminating the matriarchy that has been
(32:57):
there since the first campfire was and had to be
kept alive. You know, I could talk to you about
this all day, but I do want to also ask you.
You know, another thing you've done is to carve out
a life for yourself with your husband and your son
outside of Hollywood. So what's a typical day like for you?
(33:18):
When you're not shooting a movie, when you're not talking
to directors, when you're not reading material that you might option,
how do you spend your time? Well, I'm really really
fortunate because Joel and I were always interested. We never
lived in la We lived in LA for work, but
we always lived in New York City. We raised our
son in New York City, and we have many friends
(33:39):
that have nothing to do with the industry, so we
didn't live inside it. It was our job, but it
wasn't our life. We're also very privileged in that we
can have more than one home. You know. I have
a home in New York City and I have a
home in a rural area, which exposes me to nature
in a way that I couldn't. I could never spend
(34:00):
all my life in a large city because nature is
a huge part of my every day. I'm not a
great planter, but I'm a great pruner. I love to
prune things. You give me a saw and a couple branches,
I can spend all day my house. Yeah, I'm ready.
(34:21):
I love to cook. I have groups of women that
we get together and we we you know, the classic
stitch and bitch, but it's not you know, it's a
little gossip thrown in, but a lot of talk about
the books we're reading and the information we're sharing. I've
gotten involved in local politics in a way of with
affordable housing in the town that I spend time, I
(34:43):
feel like there's now I think, as a lot of
we older women know, it doesn't seem like there's enough
hours in the day to true Oh my gosh. I mean,
I am constantly saying I have I don't know how
I have so much to do? All the how much
to do? You know, but they more importantly, Oh Hillary,
I want here. I want to ask you something, because
(35:03):
here's some advice I need. I have been doing the
same thing for so long, and what I want to
do is not be so addicted as too dramatic. But
I don't want to be at the mercy of the
thing I've done for so long, because it's defined so
much of my day and so much of my year.
(35:26):
I kind of I'm used to these rhythms of Okay,
you have a movie, you start this process of a movie,
then you do this part and this part and this part,
and then you start again. I'd really like to know
what it's like to get up in Bay and have
a clear horizon and know that I'll be okay, yeah, yeah,
well i'd be okay. Hillary, You're gonna be okay, You're
(35:48):
gonna be You're gonna be totally okay. I hate to
break it to you, though, I don't know that you're
ever going to have a clear horizon because your mind
is going to be constantly churning about out. I got
to go prune something. I got to figure out how
to make the inclusion writer real. I've got to, you know,
figure out how I can support my son as he
(36:09):
goes off. And you are never going to be someone
who is not alive and curious and active, and hooray,
I'm so happy that that is who you are and
you don't want to give up. I could never give
up trying to influence politics or trying to, you know,
(36:29):
support people who I think are going to be, you know,
better for my grandchildren than other people. So I'm always
going to be interested in that, and I think that's
how you you do it well. Thank you. I think Hillary,
you know, it's important for the podcast listeners to know
that you brought me to tears because it's so true
and the truth always, you know, hits us in the
most the most deepest way. I also something that I'm
(36:52):
trying to practice and I know that you you already
have been practicing this, and I think it's really important
right now because we have so many female leaders who
are transitioning in their lives to the next phase. I
am really interested in pointing towards the people that are
familiar to me. If you have responded to what I've
(37:14):
done in my life at sixty five, then I want
to point you to Ddy Gardner and Sarah Pouly, who
I worked with on women Talking, and say, these women,
I trust them, I know what they're doing. I'm going
to say, everybody follow them. I'll be right over here
if you need me here, I am right right right
(37:35):
over here. That's exactly right. You know, we now have
all these relatively young women in politics. They're governors now.
I just talk to the new governor of Massachusetts who's
a longtime friend of mine. You just want to do
whatever you can to not just encourage them personally, but
(37:57):
to try to create an environment in which they can flourish,
in which they can do their best work. And you know,
you and I've learned some lessons along the way that
maybe are useful. But again, we're going to be living
our lives. People know where to find us, and we
welcome that. If they're people we want to be in
(38:18):
conversation with. They are part of our women talking groups,
so to speak. The Hayloft, Yes, les our own little hayloft.
The Hayloft is a sacred place. Well, my friend, I
cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed talking to you,
seeing you virtually. Thank you, Thank you so much for
who you are, what you do, and everything that you
(38:42):
mean and give to us. It's truly a great honor
and delight being with you. Thank you, Madam Secretary. When
I watch the Oscars this Sunday, I'll be sharing on
the whole team from Women Talking, And if you haven't
(39:03):
seen the film yet, I highly recommend you check it out.
I'm proud to stand with Francis, Sarah Polli, Dedie Gardner,
everyone who is pushing us to support films by people
whose voices we haven't heard, who've been kept on the
margins for far too long. Before I sign off, I
(39:24):
want to let you know we'll be back with a
new season of you and Me both in the fall.
But if you can't wait until then, why not check
out our archive. There's so many fantastic conversations there, including
with the great Glenda Jackson, who Francis was just raving about.
Glenda still remembers when she was nominated for her first
(39:45):
Academy Award for the film Women in Love, when it
did happen. I look back on it now, it was
quite extraordinary because I was a great disappointment to all
the kind of journalists beca I didn't look the way
they told people who would nominate you should look. You
know what I mean, I do know what to Yes.
(40:07):
Go to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts to listen.
You and Me Both is brought to you by iHeartRadio.
We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo,
with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Nick Merrill,
(40:31):
Laura Olan, Rachel Rosen, Lona Valmorro and Lily Webber. Our
engineer is Zach McNeice. And the original music is by
Forrest Gray. That's all for now, but as I said,
I'll be back in the fall. Until then, you can
check out all of our past episodes and be sure
to subscribe to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app,
(40:55):
Apple podcasts, or wherever you go to get your podcasts.
Thank you so much for listening.
You and Me Both is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm
Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. We're
between seasons right now, but I couldn't wait to share
with you this conversation I had with one of my
favorite actors and favorite people about her latest project and
(00:20):
about the brave choices she's made throughout her extraordinary career.
Like so many of you listening, I've been a fan
of Francis McDorman from the first time I saw her
on the big screen. Many of you probably know her
from her breakout performance in the nineteen ninety six film Fargo,
(00:42):
written and directed by the Cohen Brothers, that is, her
husband Joel Cohen and his brother Ethan. In that movie,
Francis plays Marge Gunderson, a very pregnant, very down to
earth police chief in small town Minnesota. I'd be very
surprised if our suspect was from Brainard. Yeah, and I'll
(01:04):
tell you what from his footprint. He looks like a
big fella. You see something down there, chief? No, I
just think I'm gonna bear jeez kargie. Yeah, I'm fine,
it's just morning sickness. Since then, she's played many other
(01:25):
unforgettable roles on stage and screen, including her award winning
performances in Olive Kitteridge, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, and
Nomad Land. Francis has also been a vocal advocate for
expanding access to more women and people of color in Hollywood.
(01:47):
At the twenty eighteen OSCAR ceremony, she made headlines with
her acceptance speech for Best Actress when she invited every
female nominee in every category to stay and with her.
The actors, Marilick, you do it. Everybody else will come on.
The filmmakers, the producers, the directors, the writers, the cinematographers,
(02:12):
the composers, with the songwriters, the designers. I have two
words to leave with you tonight, ladies and gentlemen. Inclusion writer.
That's when many of us first heard the term inclusion writer.
Something she encouraged that actors put in their contracts, stipulating
(02:35):
that a certain proportion of the cast or crew must
be women or people of color. Now Francis is up
for another Oscar, this time for the remarkable film Women Talking,
which she produced and appears in. The film is based
on a novel by Miriam Taves and was written and
(02:56):
directed by Sarah POLLI we had so much to talk about,
and I'm delighted to share with you my conversation with
Francis McDorman. Hello Francis, Hello Hillary. I remember, God was
it seven years ago, twenty fifteen, we watched the Academy
(03:16):
Awards together. Oh, at our mutual great friends home. I
remember that too, you know what? And may I call
you Hillary, Secretary Clinton? Yes, you better, Yes, indeed, thank
you so very much, because I remember because we have
a long tradition of being very snarky while watching. And
(03:36):
I remember I started talking about somebody's outfit, which I
love to do. It's a fashion show, right, it's a thing. Yes,
it's kind of part of the sport. And I remember
looking over at you and you looked at me quizzically,
and I realized, oh, I have to explain that part
of it is just being b I tch y. It's
(03:58):
like sports commentary. Are you going this year? Our film
has been invited, I would hope, So I want to
talk to you about that, but first let's get into
the important stuff like are you going? Well? You know what, Hillary,
it is something to talk about because it's a weird
in my little pocket of the universe, called the film industry,
which is, in fact, I want to remind everyone a
(04:20):
very small part of the larger entertainment business that TV
show is not my favorite part of it. I call
it the convention. Our family calls it the award convention.
That's a good description. It's like a car show, yes,
And they roll us out every year and then they
roll us back in the garage, and I kind of
(04:42):
feel like I couldn't have had a more wonderful time
over the years going. But every time that I or
some project I've been involved in is invited, I reassess it.
And so I'm still reassessing that the film's going. And
I think a really important thing for us, Sarah Paully
(05:06):
the director, and Dedie Gardner are producing partner, is that
the invitation that we've been extended. We're very interested in
making that a very loud statement about the omissions that
have been made this year. No women were nominated for director,
were they? And people of color? It is so I mean,
(05:26):
so bald that it's kind of hard to ignore. Well,
there's no ignoring it. There's no ignoring it. There's no
ignoring it. And I think why I'm saying that because
when you know, when this podcast has aired. In our
conversation is you know, a part of the conversation that
other people are having about the film, we're going to
be already engaged in a process of saying, if you
(05:48):
are interested in the success of Women Talking, you're also
interested in the success of The Woman King by Gina
prince Blythewood Exactly. You're interested in the success of till
you're interested in the success of many films that were
made this year that were helmed by women, and they
had the exact same interest in changing the industries as
(06:09):
Dedy Gardner, Sarah Paulie, and Francis McDorman have. Yeah, I
love that, Francis, we're talking about your most recent movie,
Women Talking, because the film is so extraordinary to me.
It's what film should be explained for our listeners who
haven't seen it yet. I hope there's not too many
of them, but there will be some sort of what
(06:31):
the core of the story is about. It's based on
a true story, and it's based on a horrific event
that happened in a Mennonite community in Bolivia that was
reported on actually in vice. It turned out that for
over several years, the men of the community used a
cow tranquilizer. They spread it into women's rooms a nest
(06:53):
size the women, and while they were unconscious they the
women were raped over and over over several years, females
horrifically from three years to eighty years old. And when
the women woke up, battered and bruised, not understanding what
had happened, some of them pregnant. They were told by
(07:13):
the men of the community and the male leaders of
the community that it was in their imagination or they
were being tempted by the devil. They were basically, as
the term is now, gas lit. So finally some of
the men were caught actually climbing into the one of
the women's rooms, and eight of the men were taken
(07:34):
by the community and locked into a shed. Finally, the
Bolivion government found out about the incident and took them
to jail. So what Miriam Tave's book Women Talking did
is took it from that moment forward and said what
if What if a trial did not happen, but the
women decided to vote while the men were away to
(07:57):
post bail for the men that were jailed. What if
the women voted to either do nothing to forgive the
men as they were being asked to do by the
patriarchal leaders, to stay and fight the men for what
they had done, or to leave and begin a new
world somewhere else. And so Miriam's book starts with that
vote and the women gathering in the hayloft to discuss forgiveness, complicity, retribution, revenge,
(08:27):
the future. And this is a group of women who
have been kept illiterate because they're not educated past a
certain point. So what I love about what Miriam did
is she shows a group of women who, yes, they're illiterate,
but their imaginations are broad, and their sense of faith
and justice is deepened, you know, has equanimity. You know.
(08:53):
I read the book when it came out and it
just was so shocking and painful. And then the way
you portray it in the film is to me just
an extraordinary You look into human nature and the kind
of sense of justice that can be ignited even in
(09:16):
people who have been literally separated from the world. I
thought it was just an extraordinary film. Thank you, And
I have to tell you so much credit goes to
Sarah Pauly and her not only her skill as a storyteller,
she also has a very personal sense of justice. She
(09:38):
has a long history of political activism, so she understands
it as a piece of I like to call it
good propaganda, because I think there is good propaganda. I
think that's it ignites conversation, and you know, one of
the great things we've been able to do with the film.
You know, films are meant to be seen in a
(09:58):
dark room with other people with disparate political beliefs and
religious faiths and backgrounds. But they come into that space
and they share the same story. That's the beauty of film,
and then they talk about it, and then they talk
about it and they can't leave the lobby for a while.
Those are the best moments, right when you're suspended in
(10:18):
that space for a while with a group of strangers. Unfortunately,
that's not happening as often as we would like it too.
But what we have been able to do is have
a lot of screenings on college campuses and invite professors
who are not teaching film, but they're teaching religious studies, ethics,
gender studies, and the conversations that are happening out of
(10:42):
those screenings have been delicious, absolutely delicious. And I was
also interested in the character that you played. I mean
it was a small role in the film, but a
very powerful one. And without being a spoiler, you know,
your character is severe, intimidating, resistant to change, really a
(11:07):
defender of the status quo, someone who has bought, hook
line and sinker everything that she'd been indoctrinated by and
lived throughout her long life. Was she hard to play
for you? You know, Hillary, I really am so appreciative
(11:27):
of the way Sarah cast me in this film and
that we kind of cast me together as Scarface Jans.
First of all, just who wouldn't want to play a
character called Scarface Jans. That being said, more importantly, there
were three positions posited in the film. As I said before,
(11:47):
do nothing to forgive the men, stay and fight, the
men and leave. There were three matriarchs in the Hayloft, Scarface,
Agatta and Greta. All the women of the community, three
hundred or more women in the community. Their fates were
being decided by these three families. Scarface represents a large
(12:10):
group of the women in that community who, for whatever reason,
fear complacency, the status quo, whatever it is. They have
chosen to do nothing and forgive because they believe that
their place in heaven is threatened if they don't. So
I felt that by casting someone who an audience expects
(12:32):
to turn up more in the conversation, it keeps that
voice alive. By casting me, even though what I love
is also that Scarface Jans and her family, her daughter
and granddaughter don't have a lot of dialogue. Most of
our scenes are just seeing us in our life, silently
(12:53):
in our life, going about our life, with the pressure
of this decision hanging over us. But I think it's
really important to keep their voice alive, those other women's
voice alive. Well, it's a very realistic set of options,
and we are presented with them every single day of
our life as women do nothing, stay and fight or
(13:14):
walk away exactly, Oh, Hillary, don't you know it? I
do know it. It's sort of you know, it's just
a reflection. Even though this is a community that most
of us will never experience, never be part of, it
is engaged in a universal decision making. Absolutely, it's embroidered
in a very tight, cruel work of our life. If
(13:36):
you want to use a metaphor, it's exactly right. Well,
the last question I wanted to ask about the film,
and you've mentioned Sarah Paully, the director, the screenwriter. Was
it one of your most unusual but gratifying experiences to
work essentially with an all women team. How did that
(13:57):
feel different to you than you're career in so many
other settings. Yeah, So I read the book, I optioned
the book. I immediately took it to Didi Gardner, who
is one of the partners in a company called Plan
B because I had been really interested in the films
they've made, Moonlight, Twelve Years of Slave, So I sent
(14:19):
the book to did. She immediately got in touch. We
got in a room together and she was just passionate
and one of the people that we first started talking
about with Sarah Pauly, because she really is an autour.
She takes it from the first step to the last step.
So we got in touch with her and she said,
(14:39):
I have three children, I love my life in Toronto.
How do we do this so that I can have
a life? And we said, we're really interested in that.
So let's have short days, let's have childcare, Let's find
the farm, live on the farm, shoot it on the farm,
do it in the summer when you're kids are off
(15:00):
of school. And we were able to accomplish maybe not
all those things, but because we were a female led organization,
mostly family oriented, it changed our perception of everything. We're
(15:20):
taking a quick break. Coming up, Francis shares how she
went from supporting actor to leading protagonist on screen and
in her own life. Now, let's switch gears a bit
(15:43):
and talk about how you got into acting in the
first place. Where did that come from? I like starting
with when I was in second grade to kind of
lead up to this point in my professional life. You know,
I lived in small rural cities towns most of my life,
and my local library had a summer program where if
(16:06):
you read ten books, you got your polaroid put on
the corkboard at the end of the summer. And I
read ten books, most of them were biographies of women
explorers and writers, and I got my picture put up
on the corkboard Hillary and it never stopped. And then
(16:26):
there was a point in my when I was a
teenager when literature that had already become my fantasy life
became a social life. When I started reading Shakespeare and
an English teacher said, let's put on some scenes after school,
And then I realized that literature could become something that
was actually with other people in a room, and then
(16:49):
that grew into my becoming an actor. How did you
translate those experiences as first a child, then a tea
major into the awareness that hey, I can do that.
Were there people in addition to the teacher who encouraged you,
where their role models that you saw out in the
(17:10):
world that you said to yourself, Hey, that's what I
want to be. Yeah, and you're absolutely right. It started
with these very rare individuals who in the educational system
because I, you know, I come from a working class background,
and so I went through public school, you know, in
the fifties and sixties, and those teachers recognized because I
(17:33):
was a very quiet, shy person. I wasn't one of
those children who want everybody said, oh, she'll be an actor,
because I was always app dancing or something. Now, I
was always in the corner reading, But there was something
about it was where my intellect lies. I have an
intuitive intellect. I don't necessarily have a you know something
that my husband Joel and I are always talking about.
(17:55):
I bring him towards the corporal and he brings me
towards the intellectual. But there's an intelligence there, and I
think that you know, in public school, when I was
growing up, with things like wood shop and car mechanics
and technological classes, everyone's intellect was found. If you couldn't
(18:16):
pass math because you just did not have that kind
of brain, but someone saw you build a bookcase or
put together a car engine, they understood that you had
that kind of intellect, and then they could they shepherd
you towards those kind of futures. So I had teachers
who saw that I was not passing math and I
(18:39):
was not passing science, but I couldn't stay out of
the books in English and all kinds of literature was
my candy, was my joy. It wasn't just from a
theatrical point of view, but they would ask me if
I wanted to stay after class and read other Shakespeare plays.
They would give me books to read. When I was
in college, there was no theory or major. I was
(19:00):
the only theater major in college. But the head of
the theater program, doctor Judy, said, you need to go
to graduate school. You need to be among your peers
and have three more years to test yourself against this
thing you love. And then I went to drama school.
At Yale, and I was given the opportunity to think
of myself as an artist. For three years, I went
(19:22):
on full scholarship, I had work study, I had to
work my way through that. But by the time I
got out of that seven years, I believed to myself
and I quickly started had to do a past's Blue
Ribbon commercial to play the rent, but I did it
as an actor. I paid my rent as an actor. Oh,
I love that. And you have played a series of
(19:45):
iconic women that we all know and we think about.
Was that something that just kind of evolved? I sank.
You know, here we are at a certain age, right, Hillary,
I'm sixty five. Love of acting started when I was fourteen,
so I've done it for fifty years, let's say. And
(20:06):
I would say the first half of my professional career
I played supporting roles to male protagonists, especially in film,
not on stage. Stage has always offered female actors a
wider range of three dimensional characters, but the majority of
the work I did in film was supporting roles. And
(20:29):
I think that because I was really born to be
a leading actor on stage. That's kind of what I
was trained to do, is play the cannon of all
those Lady Macbeth Clytemnestra had a gobbler, all the ones
that you you know that you would read on on
Glenda Jackson's resume. Yes, but I think that I got
(20:51):
very very good at playing supporting roles, as many women
do in our lives, not just on stage and film,
but in my life. I boarded one of the best
filmmakers of our generation. And then when our son graduated
from high school about a year before that, I knew
(21:11):
that I would be bereafed. Being introduced to my son
and being privy to his becoming an adult is really
the greatest gift of my life. So I knew that
I would be bereft and I needed to focus on
something else to get out of his way. And so
that's when I optioned all of Kittridge and started developing that,
(21:33):
and that's when I started playing leading roles in film
and I have since then. What a creative way to
deal with your empty nest syndrome. Yeah, I love that
because you loved being a mom and you loved taking
care of a house. I mean, you've I've read that,
You've said that before. It's I have to say, let's
(21:54):
face it. It's sometimes a better hobby than a full
time job. I really like it as a high. Sometimes
it's like, well, somebody else, Like I'm not going to
go over there and pick up that anymore. Somebody else,
I'm going to try to train myself not to pick
that up anymore. But I think, yeah, I think that
there's something about becoming the leading protagonist in your life.
(22:14):
Is there's something kind of metaphorical about it. You did
and you have and you know, when I think about
the iconic women that you've played, Marge Gunderson and Fargo,
Olive Kitteridge, Fern in nomad Land, they all seem in
their own ways, you know, very iconoclastic, eccentric, quirky, you know,
(22:39):
in Three Billboards, obviously outraged. I mean, there's just strong emotion,
but also a sense of commitment to living a life
on her own terms. How do you think about these
characters in relation to your own life right now? When
I first came to New York, Killery and I was
(23:02):
offered a meeting with the casting director, she sat me
down and she said, here's some things you need to know.
You got to get that tooth fixed. I had a
little chip in my front tooth. She said, you have
to learn how to use some makeup and wear high heels,
because you'd make a great pioneer woman. But they're not
making that many Westerns these days. So I went out
(23:23):
her door not very happy, and spent a few days
thinking about that, and lo and behold. I think if
you look at those characters that you've mentioned, Fern, Mildred Pays,
Marge Gunderson, Olive Kittridge, there's something about them that I
think belies her advice, that they are those kind of women,
(23:45):
a kind of American iconic women who they're like standing stones, right,
They're like those rocks out in the desert somewhere. Yes, exactly.
So I think that's kind of what they characters represent.
But I also I'm really interested also in that. So
all of Kitch was adapted from the novel by Elizabeth
(24:07):
Strout by Jane Anderson. Nomad Land was created by Chloe Jow.
Both Marge Gunderson and Mildred Hayes were written by Joel
and Nathan Cohen and Martin mcdonnough, respectively. For me, those
all the parts were written with me in mind, and
not only me in mind. Francis McDorman. But the characters
(24:28):
I played, so Fern was building off Mildred Hayes, Marge
Gunderson and all of Kittridge as much as other characters
in kind of modern classic iconography female iconography. Right, They're
all built on these iconic figures, not just me, right, right.
It wasn't Francis McDorman. It was like these iconic ideas
of woman, and in some cases, like with Mildred Hayes,
(24:52):
I actually I thought of John Wayne a lot when
I was playing the part. So there's a lot of
kind of trying to the idea of how can you
attach to these characters that have to take you through
this landscape. I've always thought of my job as I'm
in a service position. I'm serving the role that's offered,
and that as I've gotten older, I'm able to help
(25:15):
develop those characters with the storytellers more and more. But
I'm serving the characters as much as I'm serving the story.
That's such a good way of putting it. I mean,
because these characters deserve to be seen and heard, and
you have done that so beautifully that these women become
(25:36):
almost part of our consciousness, our collective consciousness, and I hope.
So I believe well, speaking for myself, I believe that.
And may I add something to this that we know? Yes,
A journalist said after watching them, I think it was
Mildred Hayes and Three Billboards. He said, watching my face
(25:57):
was like visiting a national park, which I love because
I have valleys, I have maces and peaks that I've earned,
every single one of them, every single one of them.
And you have shown a real fearlessness in rejecting a
(26:18):
lot of these unrealistic and very restrictive Hollywood beauty standards.
Where does that fearlessness come from? Trust me, I think
about it a lot. I have to think about it
a lot. Sometimes my husband will say, will you please
shut up? I'm tired of hearing you say that somebody
(26:41):
are so and so you know it's like, but so
you tell him you are talking to a national park.
Respect Please, you better watch out, mister, right We're talking
to a national park right here. But you know, I
also think there's a couple of things, and he certainly
has something to do with it, because I've often said
(27:01):
when my husband looks at me the face that he reflects,
he likes what he sees. If he didn't like what
he saw, my face would be looking like his, and
so I would have a lot more lines on my
face that were sadder. But I have happy lines because
that's what I'm reflecting. But I also think it's in reaction.
(27:23):
You know. I give a lot of credit to that
casting director because I left that room saying, Okay, I'm
not what they expect, but they're gonna need one of
me one day, and I'm going to be the best
one of that that I can be. If they need
somebody bigger or shorter, or this or that, I'll be
(27:44):
that other thing. I'm gonna be unique. I'm gonna be me.
Every story needs him. We're taking a quick break. Stay
with us, you know. I also love the fact that
(28:06):
you have done both stage and film work, and you've
even done experimental theater with companies like the Wooster Group.
What keeps luring you back? So Liz lacomp who is
the director of the Wooster Group, and Kate Vauk, who
is one of the founding members of that group, they're
dear friends. When my son was starting kindergarten and I
(28:31):
knew that I wanted to stay in one place. Joel
and I wanted to be in one place. We raised
our son in New York City. We wanted him to
have consistency because the rest of our life was not
going to be consistent. So I knew that once he
started school, I was going to stay in New York
more and do see it or more. And I went
to them and I said, I've got to have work.
I know I need work. I need consistent focus. I
(28:54):
need to keep my engine alive. I've got to keep
it well tuned. I need a place to go. And
they said, come here, because it's a matriarchal organization. And
so I was able to leave to pick him up
for school. I was able to bring him there if
I needed to. I was able to skip a day
if he had a doctor's a point. It was just
(29:16):
an It was understood, no questions asked. It wasn't just that.
It's also the way that they make art. They make
art in a very extraordinary way, and I think that
the art that they produce is some of the most
for me. It's where I did my classical performances. You know,
instead of a more conventional way of doing the classics,
(29:38):
it was a much more avant garde way of doing
the classics, So it just suited me more than say
a production at the Globe or on Broadway or the
West End. So for me, it was not only something
that challenged me as an artist, it really gave me
a home. It gave me a theatrical home. But I
(29:59):
love the theme that is running through this conversation about
the importance of creating situations like you did with women
talking having a female sensibility, about childcare, about shooting around
children's summer vacations. Now talking about you know what you
found with the Wooster group being able to pick your
(30:22):
son up at school and do what you needed to do.
I mean, it's so refreshing and still so rare. Institutions
are not willing to make those kinds of decisions that
enable more women to pursue their potential and also at
the same time do what is critically important, you know,
(30:45):
have relationships, raise children, take care of elderly parents, whatever
it might be. Absolutely Hillary. I mean, you know, I
recently looked up the phrase, and I know that you
heard it and it resonated for you. You can have
it all. And what's interesting is that so who originally
said that, I believe it was Betty for Dan and
(31:06):
then Oprah I think is credited with the second part
of that statement, which is very important. You can have
it all, just not all at once exactly. So I
think that part of my young feminist mind at fourteen
and fifteen said, oh, I can have it all, then
I'm gonna have it all, and rocket really exhausted. It's
(31:32):
really hard to fucking have it all. Got to put
a lot of things in place. So let's take for example,
because you know nobody is listening to this podcast if
they don't understand that from your perspective, Secretary Clinton, So
let's take it from Glenda Jackson's perspective. She didn't decide
(31:53):
to become a producer of film. She decided to go
into the parliament years and change policy. Now I'm not
saying that any actors should become a politician. For God's sake,
we know how that can work out. But I think
it is interesting that if you put the kind of
(32:14):
energy that we you know that actors and producers and
directors and filmmakers have exercise and practiced into activism. Right,
Like I was saying before, there's good propaganda. There's really
good ways of understanding who your audience is and how
they can be educated. So I think, you know, let's
(32:35):
have it all. Why not, Let's let's have it all right,
and also give the opportunity for some kind of I believe.
And what would I often say to you know, when
we're having screening with college students. I'm not interested in
taking down the patriarchy that's going to happen naturally as
a natural evolution of humankind. But I think what I'm
interested in is really illuminating the matriarchy that has been
(32:57):
there since the first campfire was and had to be
kept alive. You know, I could talk to you about
this all day, but I do want to also ask you.
You know, another thing you've done is to carve out
a life for yourself with your husband and your son
outside of Hollywood. So what's a typical day like for you?
(33:18):
When you're not shooting a movie, when you're not talking
to directors, when you're not reading material that you might option,
how do you spend your time? Well, I'm really really
fortunate because Joel and I were always interested. We never
lived in la We lived in LA for work, but
we always lived in New York City. We raised our
son in New York City, and we have many friends
(33:39):
that have nothing to do with the industry, so we
didn't live inside it. It was our job, but it
wasn't our life. We're also very privileged in that we
can have more than one home. You know. I have
a home in New York City and I have a
home in a rural area, which exposes me to nature
in a way that I couldn't. I could never spend
(34:00):
all my life in a large city because nature is
a huge part of my every day. I'm not a
great planter, but I'm a great pruner. I love to
prune things. You give me a saw and a couple branches,
I can spend all day my house. Yeah, I'm ready.
(34:21):
I love to cook. I have groups of women that
we get together and we we you know, the classic
stitch and bitch, but it's not you know, it's a
little gossip thrown in, but a lot of talk about
the books we're reading and the information we're sharing. I've
gotten involved in local politics in a way of with
affordable housing in the town that I spend time, I
(34:43):
feel like there's now I think, as a lot of
we older women know, it doesn't seem like there's enough
hours in the day to true Oh my gosh. I mean,
I am constantly saying I have I don't know how
I have so much to do? All the how much
to do? You know, but they more importantly, Oh Hillary,
I want here. I want to ask you something, because
(35:03):
here's some advice I need. I have been doing the
same thing for so long, and what I want to
do is not be so addicted as too dramatic. But
I don't want to be at the mercy of the
thing I've done for so long, because it's defined so
much of my day and so much of my year.
(35:26):
I kind of I'm used to these rhythms of Okay,
you have a movie, you start this process of a movie,
then you do this part and this part and this part,
and then you start again. I'd really like to know
what it's like to get up in Bay and have
a clear horizon and know that I'll be okay, yeah, yeah,
well i'd be okay. Hillary, You're gonna be okay, You're
(35:48):
gonna be You're gonna be totally okay. I hate to
break it to you, though, I don't know that you're
ever going to have a clear horizon because your mind
is going to be constantly churning about out. I got
to go prune something. I got to figure out how
to make the inclusion writer real. I've got to, you know,
figure out how I can support my son as he
(36:09):
goes off. And you are never going to be someone
who is not alive and curious and active, and hooray,
I'm so happy that that is who you are and
you don't want to give up. I could never give
up trying to influence politics or trying to, you know,
(36:29):
support people who I think are going to be, you know,
better for my grandchildren than other people. So I'm always
going to be interested in that, and I think that's
how you you do it well. Thank you. I think Hillary,
you know, it's important for the podcast listeners to know
that you brought me to tears because it's so true
and the truth always, you know, hits us in the
most the most deepest way. I also something that I'm
(36:52):
trying to practice and I know that you you already
have been practicing this, and I think it's really important
right now because we have so many female leaders who
are transitioning in their lives to the next phase. I
am really interested in pointing towards the people that are
familiar to me. If you have responded to what I've
(37:14):
done in my life at sixty five, then I want
to point you to Ddy Gardner and Sarah Pouly, who
I worked with on women Talking, and say, these women,
I trust them, I know what they're doing. I'm going
to say, everybody follow them. I'll be right over here
if you need me here, I am right right right
(37:35):
over here. That's exactly right. You know, we now have
all these relatively young women in politics. They're governors now.
I just talk to the new governor of Massachusetts who's
a longtime friend of mine. You just want to do
whatever you can to not just encourage them personally, but
(37:57):
to try to create an environment in which they can flourish,
in which they can do their best work. And you know,
you and I've learned some lessons along the way that
maybe are useful. But again, we're going to be living
our lives. People know where to find us, and we
welcome that. If they're people we want to be in
(38:18):
conversation with. They are part of our women talking groups,
so to speak. The Hayloft, Yes, les our own little hayloft.
The Hayloft is a sacred place. Well, my friend, I
cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed talking to you,
seeing you virtually. Thank you, Thank you so much for
who you are, what you do, and everything that you
(38:42):
mean and give to us. It's truly a great honor
and delight being with you. Thank you, Madam Secretary. When
I watch the Oscars this Sunday, I'll be sharing on
the whole team from Women Talking, And if you haven't
(39:03):
seen the film yet, I highly recommend you check it out.
I'm proud to stand with Francis, Sarah Polli, Dedie Gardner,
everyone who is pushing us to support films by people
whose voices we haven't heard, who've been kept on the
margins for far too long. Before I sign off, I
(39:24):
want to let you know we'll be back with a
new season of you and Me both in the fall.
But if you can't wait until then, why not check
out our archive. There's so many fantastic conversations there, including
with the great Glenda Jackson, who Francis was just raving about.
Glenda still remembers when she was nominated for her first
(39:45):
Academy Award for the film Women in Love, when it
did happen. I look back on it now, it was
quite extraordinary because I was a great disappointment to all
the kind of journalists beca I didn't look the way
they told people who would nominate you should look. You
know what I mean, I do know what to Yes.
(40:07):
Go to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts to listen.
You and Me Both is brought to you by iHeartRadio.
We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo,
with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Nick Merrill,
(40:31):
Laura Olan, Rachel Rosen, Lona Valmorro and Lily Webber. Our
engineer is Zach McNeice. And the original music is by
Forrest Gray. That's all for now, but as I said,
I'll be back in the fall. Until then, you can
check out all of our past episodes and be sure
to subscribe to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app,
(40:55):
Apple podcasts, or wherever you go to get your podcasts.
Thank you so much for listening.
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