December 12, 2023 • 36 mins
For her season finale, Hillary sits down with her husband, the 42nd president of the United States, to continue a wide-ranging conversation they’ve been having together for over 50 years. From their home in Chappaqua, New York, amid the current war in the Middle East, they recall the eight years of work Bill did during his presidency to find a road to peace for the Israeli and Palestinian people. They tackle other pressing subjects like immigration, climate change, and the urgent need for funding the war in Ukraine. And they also look for hope wherever they can find it—including Northern Ireland and Albania, and, closer to home, through celebrating the holiday season and reflecting on the bond they continue to share with one another after all their years together.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me, both
for this season finale. I'm coming to you from my
home in New York, place called Chappaquah, not far from
the city, and joining me is a special guest who
really needs no introduction, the forty second President and my husband,
(00:24):
Bill Clinton.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Bill and I think this is kind of an interesting
first in a way because we've been having conversations big
and small about literally everything for over fifty years, but
we've never done this before where we have sat down
to record a conversation just the two of us.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
So people might be wondering what we've been saying for
fa few years.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Well, this will give them a little glimpse into our
never ended conversation. There's so much to talk about. Let's
start with some global issues that we've been thinking and
talking a lot about lately. Bill, I would really like
for you to share with our listeners a brief window
(01:13):
into the work that you did as president to bring
the Israelis and Palestinians together to create a state for
the Palestinians. You started at the very beginning of your
presidency with the Oslo Accords, and we're literally working on
(01:33):
this at the historic Camp David Summit toward the end
of your term.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Give our listeners some.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Insight into what you saw and did during your eight
years as president to deal with this very challenging situation.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Well, I'll try to do it in a way that
is still relevant to what is going on today. And
I have been utterly stunned the lack of knowledge of
what happened before all this mess occurred that we're living
through now. So first, shortly after I was elected, we
(02:12):
were numbified that the Israelis and the Palestinians were talking
in Oslo, Norway, and that they might come up with
a plan for a peace process. But if they did,
they wanted America to kind of oversee it. Both sides
sort of trusted America back then, so we started. And
(02:34):
then shortly after I became president, in my first year anyway,
in September, we had the signing of the so called
Olo Accords on the south lawn of the White House,
and it was a very hopeful time. Yasa Arafat was there, obviously,
Shimone Perez was there as the Foreign Minister to Prime Minister.
(02:55):
It's Acrabine and lots of other people who became a
part of our almost everyday life. You remember the eight
years I was in the White House. We worked for
eight solid years. So it's very important that people understand
where this was then, because there was an enormous hunger
(03:17):
in Israel to have a piece deal that would give
the Palestinians their state. We had a prime minister first
in Rabin, who literally gave his life. He was murdered
because he was trying to get this two state solution.
It broke my heart. I loved him as much as
any man I've ever known, and we but it's hard
(03:38):
to explain now that you know, we were all working
together all the time. We were talking a shorthand to
each other, including the Palestinian leaders in the Israelis and
me personally. So Rabine was.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Killed and that was what nineteen ninety five, late.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Nineteen ninety five November, Okay, So after Rabin was killed,
Paris was Prime minister for wild and Nettanil who got in.
Then in nineteen ninety eight, something truly remarkable happened. We
had the only year at that time, the first year
in the history of Israel, when not a single solitary
(04:14):
person was killed by a terrorist incident, and it was stunning.
We finally had a year when it all worked, and
it's impossible to believe now, but I mean, you had
the Israeli intelligence fausting intelligence and the American CIA working
hand in glove with others trying to keep people alive.
(04:36):
Was fascinating. Okay. So then in nineteen ninety eight there
was an election in which the people of Israel said,
let's try again for peace, and that's how Ahudbarok, who
was the most decorative soldier in Israeli history, became Prime Minister.
And this is the important thing for people to know. Now,
this is not all that long ago, twenty five years ago.
(04:59):
We all we're working together, and we kept turning over
more land to the Palestinians and kept, you know, moving
forward on all these other issues. And finally at the
end of my term, near the end, we decided to
meet at Camp David because the Palestinians had still never
actually said what they would accept. So we met at
(05:23):
Camp David, and I never thought we'd get an agreement there.
All the stuff you read today, almost one hundred percent
of it is just hooey for people who either weren't
there or have bad memories, and I was personally involved
in this. This wasn't some handed over to my aids.
So what we wanted to know what Camp David is
how much will the traffic bear here? Where? Is there
(05:44):
going to be a deal that the Palestinians will have
a state, It will be sustainable economically and politically and supportable,
and it will lead to a total end of the
conflict and a new era of partnership. There were people
who didn't like that, including Hamas. Hamas never signed on
(06:05):
to this. Their goal was always to get rid of Israel.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
They've always been for the elimination of Israel.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
The elimination they wanted to.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Doubt in their actions, their their documents, or anything.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Else they always wanted to make. Used to talk about
making Israel unlivable so all the people would just leave.
So here we go. We go to Camp David, and
after that I had a pretty good idea of what
they would and wouldn't take as a state.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
And what Israel would and wouldn't give exactly.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
So we worked for a little while after Camp David,
and both sides then asked me to offer a final
proposal where they would basically fill in the blanks. And
this is what our listeners need to know. This is
what was offered, what Israel agreed to. I recommended that
(06:58):
there'd be two states, that Israel is within the sixty
seven borders as the UN resolutions called for, with some
land adjustments to cover eighty plus percent of the settlers
on the West Bank, which were then under one hundred thousand,
far fewer than now, And that the Palestinians get the
(07:22):
West Bank called for in the Oslo courts, plus Gaza,
of course, plus four percent of Israel to make up
for the four percent necessary to include the settlers. And
that the West Bank and Gaza be connected by overhead
highways that were subject to no checks, total free movement,
(07:45):
and that there be you know, agreed upon prison releases
and all that so that we could settle the populations
as much as possible. The Palestinians would get a capital
in East Jerusalem. That was a big known onn Israeli
politics for years. You can never agree to divide Jerusalem
a hood. Barack's cabinet supported a capital in East Jerusalem
for the Palacinians. It was a pretty good deal. I
(08:08):
mean it's unthinkable today, that's how close we were. There
were listening posts in the West Bank which Israel had,
which they said at the time they were right. They said,
we can't dismantle these now because of Saddam Hussein and
because we don't have a peace agreement with Syria with Osat,
(08:29):
so we will let the Palacinians have equal access and effect.
Every time we're up fair, they can be up there,
because we all understood that if we had a peace
agreement with a new state, the enemies of peace would
try to kill the leaders of both sides for at
least three or four years.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Remember, they killed unwar Sadad Yep after Egypt made peace.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Who killed Saddad an Egyptian who thought he was a
bad Muslim and a bad Egyptian for making peace? Who
Robine and Israeli who came from a radical settler group
who thought he had betrayed his faith in his nation
by making peace with his neighbors and trying to give
the Palestinians estate, who destroyed a hood Barocks government, the
(09:15):
settlers who didn't want him to give the Palestinians estate. Now,
you can't live in the past, but let's look at
what happened after that. After I left office.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Well, I think it's important though, before you go there.
You made the offer that you've just described. Yeah, I did,
and the Israelis accepted it.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
And the Israelis accepted it, and Palistinians wanted a few
more blocks for Christian churches in the Old City. They
wanted a clear say, which we gave them on what
countries would be in an international security force that we
would put on the eastern flank of the Palestinian state.
We're owning over a few blocks of the Old City
(09:54):
of Jerusalem. So I laid all this out there. Six
weeks before I left office, Yah Sir Arafat was in town.
He came by the Seami and I wanted to see
him alone. And keep in mind, the United Nations had
designated Arafat to represent the Palestinians. So I asked him,
(10:18):
I said, are we going to do this peace deal?
He said sure. I said no, no, No. I said,
this is serious because I have a chance to go
to North Korea and make an agreement with them that
could end their nuclear program and their missile program and
take a dark cloud off the future of North Asia.
But American president can't just drop down on North Korea
(10:39):
for the first time since the end of the Korean War.
I have to go to South Korea. I have to
go to Japan, which still had prisoners in North Korea.
I have to go to Russia and China, which were
the co sponsors of the peace. He said, well, how
long will it take? I said about twelve days if
I don't sleep, and he said, oh, you can't do that.
(11:01):
It's the only time I was ever with their fat
where I saw tears in his eyes. He said, you
can't do that. I said, why, because you're going to
sign this deal when we get it done, and it
needs to look like I'm putting heavy pressure on you.
He said, sure, yes, you can't go away. I said, okay,
but you just owe me the truth. If you're not
(11:22):
going to do this, you have to tell me. He said,
my god, if we don't do it while you're here,
it may be ten years, twenty years, maybe forever. We
have to do it now. He had never ever lied
to me. He was hard to get a commitment out of,
but he never lied, and so he just it never happened.
(11:45):
I don't know whether he was afraid he would be
killed immediately, but he certainly wasn't afraid. He spent the
night in a different place for twenty years every night.
In other words, people were trying to kill him too.
All this time, everybody acts like, all this is a
free run, you know. It's if you try to make
peace between people who've been fighting, the people who have
(12:05):
an interest in the fighting will try to stop you.
So anyway, the date came and the date went, and
I have now listened for over twenty years to people
tell me why Camp David was a failure. It wasn't.
It was never designed to get a final agreement. No
one in their right mind who'd been dealing with this
(12:27):
believed that we could get an agreement. To Camp David,
what we could get is a Pelsinians to tell us
exactly where a deal might be, and then we pushed
like crazy to get it. And even after I left,
we had one more month in which they were working,
and I was wearing air fat out by then. I said,
(12:48):
why aren't you doing this deal? Don't you understand? He said, well,
the Israelis are two week to make the deal. Now,
Barack's going to lose the election. I say, he's going
to lose the election because you let him get way
out on his ledge, and you haven't taking this deal,
and instead you started the second Intifado. I said, but
I still have a seventy four percent approval riating in Israel,
(13:09):
and we're going to ratify this deal or defeat it
in an election. And he never said yes, he never
said no, and he just I mean, that's basically what happened,
and we're living with this that we could have had
twenty five years. Imagine this of a Palaesinian.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
State, or twenty three years.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That'd be twenty three years of Palasinian state on the
West Bank and Gaza with no checkpoints, no stops, no nothing.
And look what happened afterward. Ariel Sharon defeated net Nyahu
for Prime Minister, and then the only question was which
hardliner would win, because the Israeli voters by then said,
(13:50):
oh my god, if they won't take what Barak and
his cabinet offered, they're not going to take anything. Well,
this elect the toughest guy we can.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
We'll be back right after this quick break before we
move on to something else that's not quite as you know,
terrible as war. We are still in the midst of
trying to help Ukraine against the savage invasion by Russia.
(14:26):
And Congress is currently debating the terms of a foreign
aid package which is necessary to provide further funding and
support to Ukraine. And you're seeing the opposition to helping
Ukraine primarily but not exclusively in the Republican Party.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
So you think we're.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Going to get aid to help Ukraine, which is you know,
in a very difficult position because obviously it doesn't have
the population that Russia does. Russia's emptied its jails, for
heaven's sakes to put people on the front line as
literally cannon fodder. Russia has much more resources than Ukraine
to keep putting advanced weaponry. How do you see that
(15:07):
current conflict because there are people in our country. You
don't understand that if Putin gets away with this in Ukraine,
watch out, because he's not going to stop. Oh.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I think this is one of the most momentous decisions
we have to make that will affect the next twenty
or thirty years. The United States cannot walk away from Ukraine.
I think there are two things going on. The Republicans
in the Congress are using this to try to force
the Democrats and the White House to agree to more
(15:39):
restrictions along the border, because that feeds into their narrative
that this is a big parble problem and it's the
end of the world is at the hand if one
more immigrant gets into the country. That's part of it.
But it's also true that there is a core in
our Congress that seems to turn to do whatever Vladimir
(16:02):
Putin wants because he works so hard to help them
get the White House in twenty sixteen. And you know,
this is not a game. It's not just what's in
the best interests of one political party or another. What
they really want the Russians is the metals and precious
earths in eastern Ukraine, and Ukraine and Russia together have
(16:26):
thirty percent of the world's wheat production. So I don't
know if there's any non violent endo this, but I
know that there will be no non violent into it
unless we stay with Ukraine. Look, they haven't asked a
single American to die for them. They haven't asked anybody
else to fight and die for them. All they've asked
(16:47):
us to do is to deal with Putin and his allies,
giving him an almost insurmountable economic and military advantage and
I think if we walk away from them, we will
be paying for it thirty years from now. I think
you have no idea. No one will trust the United
States anymore as a partner. No one will believe we
(17:08):
really care about freedom anymore. They will think this is
everything's just the deal. What helps me today, what helps
me tomorrow. We have no permanent values and convictions. I
think it'll be a terrible mistake, but we may have
to make a deal with the Republicans. I think, you know,
there's some things that could be done along the border
that wouldn't be so bad, because we are dealing with
(17:30):
volumes of people coming in far greater than we've had
in my lifetime. And it's not just America. It's happening everywhere.
There's this huge upheaval in the world. So I think
they ought to get together and try to work that out.
But it is true that there is a cadre on
the right that believes that Putin ought to win, and
(17:52):
they're just wrong. They can't imagine unless you don't care
about democracy and don't care if we prevail, that this
is this is a big, big deal, and yes it
costs some money. But they haven't asked us to die
for them. They've asked us to give them a chance
to live, and we ought to do it. Well.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
You know, you mentioned migration, and one of the increasing
reasons for migration is the impact of climate change that
is affecting, you know, people's ability to actually make a living,
to be farmers in many parts, you know, they deal
with drought and wildfires and flooding and erosion, landslides, all
(18:34):
of that. And I just came back from the Climate
Conference COP twenty eight in Dubai, which was both energizing
because there are so many people trying so hard to
deal with you know, the two halfs of the you know,
the puzzle to try to mitigate the rising temperatures before
it is too late, and try to help people adapt
(18:56):
to the rising temperatures that are actually with us right now.
And you've worked on climate change issues all over the world,
particularly through the Clinton Global Initiative and all of its
many commitments and partnerships. So what gives you hope in
this fight against climate change?
Speaker 3 (19:14):
First of all, I think there continues to be a
passion among young people to do something about this, an
awareness and acceptance, a refusal to live in denial, and
I think that's very hopeful. Secondly, every year, practically every
month unveils new opportunities to generate more energy with fewer emissions,
(19:40):
or to be more efficient in doing work around the world.
They're all these opportunities. So the real challenges in getting
leaders in place in every country from the national level down,
who will hammer out the practical answers of this. This
is you know, this is not a partiticularly ideological issue.
(20:01):
This is a if you do one, two, three things,
you'll get four or five six results. And I think
we're it's an important thing that we're there. We don't
have many open denihilists anymore. And that's the thing that
gives me hope. That and the kids. I think that
young people, if they just keep pushing, there's still an
enormous amount that we could do. For example, in this country,
(20:24):
that would actually be job creators, that will add more
jobs to the economy, that will brighten the future and
reduce the emissions.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Well, Bill, you know, you've had some really interesting chances
to travel this year and met some remarkable people. And
I don't want to go through a travelogue, but maybe
you could just quickly describe one of your most recent
trips to Albania. You know, I think as we are
in the holiday season, people want to hear about some hope.
(20:56):
They want to hear that progress is possible. They want
to feel that people, you know, can come together. And
you saw an experience.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I did that. I think there are lots of reasons
to be hopeful looking around the world. I mean, we
also went to Northern Ireland to celebrate the twenty five
years of the peace process. And even though they're fighting
over the government, nobody wants to go back to the conflict,
and the Irish keep voting for more inclusive candidates, policies, futures.
(21:25):
So then you know, I went to Albania, which is
the Albania was just thirty years ago the last closed
Stalinist dictatorship, and their dictator committed suicide and they opened
the country and they decided to go in a total
opposite direction. And at the same time when I got
(21:49):
involved with them a little later, Kosovo, which is part
was part of Serbia at the time, but basically it
was over ninety something percent in Albanian was for its
existence against Melosovich and Serbia, and so Hillary and I
became very involved. We're living here in Chapqua, New York,
(22:09):
and New York has the largest Albanian population outside Albania,
and a lot of it's concentrated along where we live.
Down this block from where I'm talking, we have two
coast of our Albanian families. So I went there. I'd
never been to Albania before, and Edi Rama, the Prime Minister,
met me. He's a former mayor of Toronto, but he's
(22:34):
also a gifted artist and a former basketball player. He
is about six foot six and I stayed in what
was the official Communist guest house in Stalinus days and
it's a picture of how the world can move from
close to open, how the world can move from war
(22:54):
to peace. The new cabinet is about forty percent female,
the new Parliament is about the same. It's as one
of the most the youngest, most vigorous, and most gender
balanced governments in Europe. So I wish the whole world
could go to Albania for a day or two. I mean,
(23:14):
it's just such a beautiful place, and they know what
it's like to lose all their freedom. They're not having
these debates that we're having in America. All they wanted
to talk about was the future?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
You know, you told me one of the most moving
parts of your experience is that they brought together all
these children who their parents had named for you, and
you got to meet dozens of children who were named
Bill or William or Clinton.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, it was amazing, but it was optimistic.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
It was the thing I think is important. I wish
every American could have seen it, not because of me,
but because that's what people think of America. It's what
people think we ought to be doing, saving lives, lifting
people together, recognizing people's right to be and chart their
own course. It was so touching.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Well, we're about to go into another election year, and
I think the stakes could not be higher. What is
your assessment of the stakes of this election in a
way that our listeners can really take to heart and
think about as we move forward.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Well, first, I think we should be under no illusion
there are a lot of Republicans who are just good
Americans who disagree with Democrats like you and me. That's fine,
But there is a hardcore now out there who believe
so strongly that there are dominance of the cultural issues
and the political issues is essential, and that they're willing
(24:59):
to basically say goodbye to our democracy, and I don't
want to say good about our democracy. I kind of
like it here. I like all these arguments, and I
like uncertainties, and I like fights, you know, in a
good sense.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
And even finding common ground to compromise to find solutions
for problems.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
You know, I talk to people all the time who
were even people who were big opponents of mine when
I was president, who say, you know, we're actually on
the verge of using our democracy. Liz Cheney wrote this
new book you know about it. I understand how a
lot of people don't believe that or can't believe that,
and they have so much to do every week to
(25:41):
pay their bills, keep body and soul together, think about
the things their kids needs. I understand that. But we
literally have a chance to lose the democratic wealth life
we have been trying to perfect over two hundred years.
And it's not just majority rule, it's also minority rights,
rule of law, individual rights, restraints on what government can
(26:04):
and can't do, And so I think that's important. I
agree there are imminent challenges that we have to address,
but it's interesting almost every problem we've got, let's take immigration.
This is actually a huge opportunity if we did like
Canada does, for example, if people had to sponsor immigrants,
(26:26):
not take financial responsibility for them, but you know, set
up centers where they could work. What happens is only
the places in Canada where people want immigrants get immigrants,
and they're filling labor holes all the time that need
to be filled. I mean, look at America has got
a negative birth rate. There are places in this country
(26:49):
that have huge shortages of workers, and most of these
folks are just asking for a chance to work. I
mean that's just one example. So if we were tactical
instead of ideological, if we were just sitting down from
opposite points of view to solve problems, I think most
of this stuff could be a lot better. You know,
(27:10):
George Bush and I do this leadership program together and
it's about half Republican, half Democrat. We get together and
meet with them and they try to solve problems together.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
These are mid career people.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Yeah, they're mid career people basically from twenty eight to
forty two more or less. And the only requirement for
getting in our program is you have to have something
to do that you do besides your day job, you
have to have some interest in something else. And it's
been a joy because they go to his library in
mine and we meet with them, and they go to
the LBJ library and his father's library, and they learn
(27:46):
how other people dealt with problems, and then they agree
to work on certain problems. Once they agree to work
on a problem, more than seventy percent of the time
they reach a consensus about what to do about it.
It's fascinating. So he and I have had a good time,
but we have about decided we're troglodites were the We
(28:07):
are the dinosaurs of the current age. Maybe because everything
now is supposed to be a continuous fight and it's
highly lucrative for the media, but it's a lousy way to.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Run a railroad, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
As I said, we have carried on a conversation now
for more than fifty years, and you know, part of
I think the real core of our relationships, our marriage
has been we started a conversation and we never stopped,
through good times and hard times, through happy times and
(28:39):
sad times. It doesn't mean we don't get frustrated and
upset with the other, because that's human nature, but we
always kept talking. You know, I'm not giving relationship advice.
Everybody has to find their own way. But I think
our ability to keep talking is one of the reasons
why we're still sitting here together.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, I did too, I think you know, we've just
came home from going to that cop and she got
a little sick on the trip. She hadn't been home
two minutes before. I knew what was wrong, what was
right after she was feeling. That happens if you invest
time in somebody over a long time, and we can
(29:19):
talk a lot about how people have to talk about everything.
I think one of the gifts you get from investing
time in somebody over a long time is what you
don't have to say what you see and know without
anybody saying something.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
There is no perfect handbook for life. You have to
figure it out as you go along. And you've always
got to decide whether whatever commitment you make in whatever
way or fulfilling that the bonds of love and the
benefits of love outweigh the burdens and the frustrations. And
(29:58):
that's a decision nobody can make for you. But we
do know that people in general are social animals. That's
why I think all this hate based politics they so
bad for us. So you know, the idea that our
differences are so much more important than what we have
in common. And you know, I may sound Pollyanna, but
(30:19):
I've lived for this for a long time and buy this.
And I have always believed that we should keep trying
to understand one another and keep reaching out to each other.
And I believe that whether it starts with Hillary and
me or anybody else's family, or the children or grandchildren
we have, it's a gift to be alive. It carries burdens,
(30:42):
it carries challenges, but I think just remembering that is important.
We should just never take it for granted, never take
it for granted. And I'm actually pretty optimistic, I always
have been, but I have been very worried at this
moment in history that our capacity city to grow and
(31:02):
cooperation and understanding is a little bit under out.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I want to end Bill by telling our listeners that you,
I believe are Santa's Chief Elf. I have never met
anybody who loves Christmas as much as you do. Literally,
from the moment we started dating, I realized you were
totally consumed by Christmas. By the decorating, the gift giving,
(31:35):
the tree trimming, the church services, everything about Christmas. And
I know that, you know, while I was in Dubai
at the Climate conference, you were putting ornaments on the
tree and you know, starting to decorate the house, which
I thank you for very much. You know, but I
think of your fundamentally optimistic and hopeful spirit as really
(31:59):
reaching a christ Shindo every year around Christmas. And you
know we now have our three grandchildren who make you know,
Christmas so meaningful to us. And what are some of
your favorite things to do during Christmas and your you
know love of this season and what it represents.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Well, it is true I am the ultimate Christmas Elf.
Even when I was in the White House, I wrapped
my own Christmas present, and I didn't do it for
brownie points. I did it because I like it and
because I think it put me in the right humor.
The whole idea of the fundamental gifts of life and
making new beginning and thinking of other people and loving
(32:44):
them as yourselves and trying to do that that's always
been important to me. Last night I put the ornaments
on our Christmas tree, and I admit the older I
get the fewer I put out used to be the
tree was about to teeth over every time, because I mean,
we've been married a long time and I have a
couple of ornaments to go back to before we got married.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
So and you always know if we didn't bring all
the boxes up, because you always say to me, well,
where was that ornament, you know, the one that we
got when Chelsea was born or whatever the you know,
the provenance might be.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
But anyway, I think it's a good thing for people
to be grateful for their blessings and to count them
and to recognize that most people, no matter how difficult
life is for them, can always think of somebody who's
worse off and in greater need, and therefore we should
(33:37):
try to lift them up. I also love being with
our grandchildren Christmas time. I love going to their Christmas pageants.
I love going to the church pageants. I love going
to see the rockets at Radio City, and I guess
we'll go to the train show with the Botanical Garden.
(33:57):
For it's all over being a great parent at Christmas.
If you live in and around New York, it's pretty
fun because there's so many things for your grandchildren to
go gaga over.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I love them well. We want to wish everyone a
really really happy holiday season. Happy Hanukkah to everyone out
there who is lighting candles trying to bring some light
into the dark. Merry Christmas to everyone out there who
is getting ready to celebrate Christmas, and particularly a happy,
(34:28):
healthy and peaceful New Year.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
I still believe in a place called hope.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yes for the monotheist there is where I think somehow
the Muslims and the Christians and the Jews can, will,
and must be reconciled. This is a dumb way to
live life, killing other people and stopping young people from
reaching their potential. But we can't get through it without
(34:57):
understanding where we've been and what's going on here. So
I appreciate your show and what you're trying to do
to tell people what's going on here.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
That's our goal.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Happy to your folks.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
That's it for this season.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
I'll be back soon, but in the meantime, check out
our archive of episodes and here's to health, happiness, and
peace in twenty twenty four. You and Me Both is
brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren,
Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Abadeen,
(35:41):
Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lona Valmorro,
and Lily Weber. Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and the
original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like you
and me both, tell someone else about it. And if
you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for?
(36:04):
You can subscribe to you and me both on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Thanks for listening.
I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me, both
for this season finale. I'm coming to you from my
home in New York, place called Chappaquah, not far from
the city, and joining me is a special guest who
really needs no introduction, the forty second President and my husband,
(00:24):
Bill Clinton.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Bill and I think this is kind of an interesting
first in a way because we've been having conversations big
and small about literally everything for over fifty years, but
we've never done this before where we have sat down
to record a conversation just the two of us.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
So people might be wondering what we've been saying for
fa few years.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Well, this will give them a little glimpse into our
never ended conversation. There's so much to talk about. Let's
start with some global issues that we've been thinking and
talking a lot about lately. Bill, I would really like
for you to share with our listeners a brief window
(01:13):
into the work that you did as president to bring
the Israelis and Palestinians together to create a state for
the Palestinians. You started at the very beginning of your
presidency with the Oslo Accords, and we're literally working on
(01:33):
this at the historic Camp David Summit toward the end
of your term.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Give our listeners some.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Insight into what you saw and did during your eight
years as president to deal with this very challenging situation.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Well, I'll try to do it in a way that
is still relevant to what is going on today. And
I have been utterly stunned the lack of knowledge of
what happened before all this mess occurred that we're living
through now. So first, shortly after I was elected, we
(02:12):
were numbified that the Israelis and the Palestinians were talking
in Oslo, Norway, and that they might come up with
a plan for a peace process. But if they did,
they wanted America to kind of oversee it. Both sides
sort of trusted America back then, so we started. And
(02:34):
then shortly after I became president, in my first year anyway,
in September, we had the signing of the so called
Olo Accords on the south lawn of the White House,
and it was a very hopeful time. Yasa Arafat was there, obviously,
Shimone Perez was there as the Foreign Minister to Prime Minister.
(02:55):
It's Acrabine and lots of other people who became a
part of our almost everyday life. You remember the eight
years I was in the White House. We worked for
eight solid years. So it's very important that people understand
where this was then, because there was an enormous hunger
(03:17):
in Israel to have a piece deal that would give
the Palestinians their state. We had a prime minister first
in Rabin, who literally gave his life. He was murdered
because he was trying to get this two state solution.
It broke my heart. I loved him as much as
any man I've ever known, and we but it's hard
(03:38):
to explain now that you know, we were all working
together all the time. We were talking a shorthand to
each other, including the Palestinian leaders in the Israelis and
me personally. So Rabine was.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Killed and that was what nineteen ninety five, late.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Nineteen ninety five November, Okay, So after Rabin was killed,
Paris was Prime minister for wild and Nettanil who got in.
Then in nineteen ninety eight, something truly remarkable happened. We
had the only year at that time, the first year
in the history of Israel, when not a single solitary
(04:14):
person was killed by a terrorist incident, and it was stunning.
We finally had a year when it all worked, and
it's impossible to believe now, but I mean, you had
the Israeli intelligence fausting intelligence and the American CIA working
hand in glove with others trying to keep people alive.
(04:36):
Was fascinating. Okay. So then in nineteen ninety eight there
was an election in which the people of Israel said,
let's try again for peace, and that's how Ahudbarok, who
was the most decorative soldier in Israeli history, became Prime Minister.
And this is the important thing for people to know. Now,
this is not all that long ago, twenty five years ago.
(04:59):
We all we're working together, and we kept turning over
more land to the Palestinians and kept, you know, moving
forward on all these other issues. And finally at the
end of my term, near the end, we decided to
meet at Camp David because the Palestinians had still never
actually said what they would accept. So we met at
(05:23):
Camp David, and I never thought we'd get an agreement there.
All the stuff you read today, almost one hundred percent
of it is just hooey for people who either weren't
there or have bad memories, and I was personally involved
in this. This wasn't some handed over to my aids.
So what we wanted to know what Camp David is
how much will the traffic bear here? Where? Is there
(05:44):
going to be a deal that the Palestinians will have
a state, It will be sustainable economically and politically and supportable,
and it will lead to a total end of the
conflict and a new era of partnership. There were people
who didn't like that, including Hamas. Hamas never signed on
(06:05):
to this. Their goal was always to get rid of Israel.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
They've always been for the elimination of Israel.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
The elimination they wanted to.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Doubt in their actions, their their documents, or anything.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Else they always wanted to make. Used to talk about
making Israel unlivable so all the people would just leave.
So here we go. We go to Camp David, and
after that I had a pretty good idea of what
they would and wouldn't take as a state.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
And what Israel would and wouldn't give exactly.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
So we worked for a little while after Camp David,
and both sides then asked me to offer a final
proposal where they would basically fill in the blanks. And
this is what our listeners need to know. This is
what was offered, what Israel agreed to. I recommended that
(06:58):
there'd be two states, that Israel is within the sixty
seven borders as the UN resolutions called for, with some
land adjustments to cover eighty plus percent of the settlers
on the West Bank, which were then under one hundred thousand,
far fewer than now, And that the Palestinians get the
(07:22):
West Bank called for in the Oslo courts, plus Gaza,
of course, plus four percent of Israel to make up
for the four percent necessary to include the settlers. And
that the West Bank and Gaza be connected by overhead
highways that were subject to no checks, total free movement,
(07:45):
and that there be you know, agreed upon prison releases
and all that so that we could settle the populations
as much as possible. The Palestinians would get a capital
in East Jerusalem. That was a big known onn Israeli
politics for years. You can never agree to divide Jerusalem
a hood. Barack's cabinet supported a capital in East Jerusalem
for the Palacinians. It was a pretty good deal. I
(08:08):
mean it's unthinkable today, that's how close we were. There
were listening posts in the West Bank which Israel had,
which they said at the time they were right. They said,
we can't dismantle these now because of Saddam Hussein and
because we don't have a peace agreement with Syria with Osat,
(08:29):
so we will let the Palacinians have equal access and effect.
Every time we're up fair, they can be up there,
because we all understood that if we had a peace
agreement with a new state, the enemies of peace would
try to kill the leaders of both sides for at
least three or four years.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Remember, they killed unwar Sadad Yep after Egypt made peace.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Who killed Saddad an Egyptian who thought he was a
bad Muslim and a bad Egyptian for making peace? Who
Robine and Israeli who came from a radical settler group
who thought he had betrayed his faith in his nation
by making peace with his neighbors and trying to give
the Palestinians estate, who destroyed a hood Barocks government, the
(09:15):
settlers who didn't want him to give the Palestinians estate. Now,
you can't live in the past, but let's look at
what happened after that. After I left office.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Well, I think it's important though, before you go there.
You made the offer that you've just described. Yeah, I did,
and the Israelis accepted it.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
And the Israelis accepted it, and Palistinians wanted a few
more blocks for Christian churches in the Old City. They
wanted a clear say, which we gave them on what
countries would be in an international security force that we
would put on the eastern flank of the Palestinian state.
We're owning over a few blocks of the Old City
(09:54):
of Jerusalem. So I laid all this out there. Six
weeks before I left office, Yah Sir Arafat was in town.
He came by the Seami and I wanted to see
him alone. And keep in mind, the United Nations had
designated Arafat to represent the Palestinians. So I asked him,
(10:18):
I said, are we going to do this peace deal?
He said sure. I said no, no, No. I said,
this is serious because I have a chance to go
to North Korea and make an agreement with them that
could end their nuclear program and their missile program and
take a dark cloud off the future of North Asia.
But American president can't just drop down on North Korea
(10:39):
for the first time since the end of the Korean War.
I have to go to South Korea. I have to
go to Japan, which still had prisoners in North Korea.
I have to go to Russia and China, which were
the co sponsors of the peace. He said, well, how
long will it take? I said about twelve days if
I don't sleep, and he said, oh, you can't do that.
(11:01):
It's the only time I was ever with their fat
where I saw tears in his eyes. He said, you
can't do that. I said, why, because you're going to
sign this deal when we get it done, and it
needs to look like I'm putting heavy pressure on you.
He said, sure, yes, you can't go away. I said, okay,
but you just owe me the truth. If you're not
(11:22):
going to do this, you have to tell me. He said,
my god, if we don't do it while you're here,
it may be ten years, twenty years, maybe forever. We
have to do it now. He had never ever lied
to me. He was hard to get a commitment out of,
but he never lied, and so he just it never happened.
(11:45):
I don't know whether he was afraid he would be
killed immediately, but he certainly wasn't afraid. He spent the
night in a different place for twenty years every night.
In other words, people were trying to kill him too.
All this time, everybody acts like, all this is a
free run, you know. It's if you try to make
peace between people who've been fighting, the people who have
(12:05):
an interest in the fighting will try to stop you.
So anyway, the date came and the date went, and
I have now listened for over twenty years to people
tell me why Camp David was a failure. It wasn't.
It was never designed to get a final agreement. No
one in their right mind who'd been dealing with this
(12:27):
believed that we could get an agreement. To Camp David,
what we could get is a Pelsinians to tell us
exactly where a deal might be, and then we pushed
like crazy to get it. And even after I left,
we had one more month in which they were working,
and I was wearing air fat out by then. I said,
(12:48):
why aren't you doing this deal? Don't you understand? He said, well,
the Israelis are two week to make the deal. Now,
Barack's going to lose the election. I say, he's going
to lose the election because you let him get way
out on his ledge, and you haven't taking this deal,
and instead you started the second Intifado. I said, but
I still have a seventy four percent approval riating in Israel,
(13:09):
and we're going to ratify this deal or defeat it
in an election. And he never said yes, he never
said no, and he just I mean, that's basically what happened,
and we're living with this that we could have had
twenty five years. Imagine this of a Palaesinian.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
State, or twenty three years.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That'd be twenty three years of Palasinian state on the
West Bank and Gaza with no checkpoints, no stops, no nothing.
And look what happened afterward. Ariel Sharon defeated net Nyahu
for Prime Minister, and then the only question was which
hardliner would win, because the Israeli voters by then said,
(13:50):
oh my god, if they won't take what Barak and
his cabinet offered, they're not going to take anything. Well,
this elect the toughest guy we can.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
We'll be back right after this quick break before we
move on to something else that's not quite as you know,
terrible as war. We are still in the midst of
trying to help Ukraine against the savage invasion by Russia.
(14:26):
And Congress is currently debating the terms of a foreign
aid package which is necessary to provide further funding and
support to Ukraine. And you're seeing the opposition to helping
Ukraine primarily but not exclusively in the Republican Party.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
So you think we're.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Going to get aid to help Ukraine, which is you know,
in a very difficult position because obviously it doesn't have
the population that Russia does. Russia's emptied its jails, for
heaven's sakes to put people on the front line as
literally cannon fodder. Russia has much more resources than Ukraine
to keep putting advanced weaponry. How do you see that
(15:07):
current conflict because there are people in our country. You
don't understand that if Putin gets away with this in Ukraine,
watch out, because he's not going to stop. Oh.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I think this is one of the most momentous decisions
we have to make that will affect the next twenty
or thirty years. The United States cannot walk away from Ukraine.
I think there are two things going on. The Republicans
in the Congress are using this to try to force
the Democrats and the White House to agree to more
(15:39):
restrictions along the border, because that feeds into their narrative
that this is a big parble problem and it's the
end of the world is at the hand if one
more immigrant gets into the country. That's part of it.
But it's also true that there is a core in
our Congress that seems to turn to do whatever Vladimir
(16:02):
Putin wants because he works so hard to help them
get the White House in twenty sixteen. And you know,
this is not a game. It's not just what's in
the best interests of one political party or another. What
they really want the Russians is the metals and precious
earths in eastern Ukraine, and Ukraine and Russia together have
(16:26):
thirty percent of the world's wheat production. So I don't
know if there's any non violent endo this, but I
know that there will be no non violent into it
unless we stay with Ukraine. Look, they haven't asked a
single American to die for them. They haven't asked anybody
else to fight and die for them. All they've asked
(16:47):
us to do is to deal with Putin and his allies,
giving him an almost insurmountable economic and military advantage and
I think if we walk away from them, we will
be paying for it thirty years from now. I think
you have no idea. No one will trust the United
States anymore as a partner. No one will believe we
(17:08):
really care about freedom anymore. They will think this is
everything's just the deal. What helps me today, what helps
me tomorrow. We have no permanent values and convictions. I
think it'll be a terrible mistake, but we may have
to make a deal with the Republicans. I think, you know,
there's some things that could be done along the border
that wouldn't be so bad, because we are dealing with
(17:30):
volumes of people coming in far greater than we've had
in my lifetime. And it's not just America. It's happening everywhere.
There's this huge upheaval in the world. So I think
they ought to get together and try to work that out.
But it is true that there is a cadre on
the right that believes that Putin ought to win, and
(17:52):
they're just wrong. They can't imagine unless you don't care
about democracy and don't care if we prevail, that this
is this is a big, big deal, and yes it
costs some money. But they haven't asked us to die
for them. They've asked us to give them a chance
to live, and we ought to do it. Well.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
You know, you mentioned migration, and one of the increasing
reasons for migration is the impact of climate change that
is affecting, you know, people's ability to actually make a living,
to be farmers in many parts, you know, they deal
with drought and wildfires and flooding and erosion, landslides, all
(18:34):
of that. And I just came back from the Climate
Conference COP twenty eight in Dubai, which was both energizing
because there are so many people trying so hard to
deal with you know, the two halfs of the you know,
the puzzle to try to mitigate the rising temperatures before
it is too late, and try to help people adapt
(18:56):
to the rising temperatures that are actually with us right now.
And you've worked on climate change issues all over the world,
particularly through the Clinton Global Initiative and all of its
many commitments and partnerships. So what gives you hope in
this fight against climate change?
Speaker 3 (19:14):
First of all, I think there continues to be a
passion among young people to do something about this, an
awareness and acceptance, a refusal to live in denial, and
I think that's very hopeful. Secondly, every year, practically every
month unveils new opportunities to generate more energy with fewer emissions,
(19:40):
or to be more efficient in doing work around the world.
They're all these opportunities. So the real challenges in getting
leaders in place in every country from the national level down,
who will hammer out the practical answers of this. This
is you know, this is not a partiticularly ideological issue.
(20:01):
This is a if you do one, two, three things,
you'll get four or five six results. And I think
we're it's an important thing that we're there. We don't
have many open denihilists anymore. And that's the thing that
gives me hope. That and the kids. I think that
young people, if they just keep pushing, there's still an
enormous amount that we could do. For example, in this country,
(20:24):
that would actually be job creators, that will add more
jobs to the economy, that will brighten the future and
reduce the emissions.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Well, Bill, you know, you've had some really interesting chances
to travel this year and met some remarkable people. And
I don't want to go through a travelogue, but maybe
you could just quickly describe one of your most recent
trips to Albania. You know, I think as we are
in the holiday season, people want to hear about some hope.
(20:56):
They want to hear that progress is possible. They want
to feel that people, you know, can come together. And
you saw an experience.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I did that. I think there are lots of reasons
to be hopeful looking around the world. I mean, we
also went to Northern Ireland to celebrate the twenty five
years of the peace process. And even though they're fighting
over the government, nobody wants to go back to the conflict,
and the Irish keep voting for more inclusive candidates, policies, futures.
(21:25):
So then you know, I went to Albania, which is
the Albania was just thirty years ago the last closed
Stalinist dictatorship, and their dictator committed suicide and they opened
the country and they decided to go in a total
opposite direction. And at the same time when I got
(21:49):
involved with them a little later, Kosovo, which is part
was part of Serbia at the time, but basically it
was over ninety something percent in Albanian was for its
existence against Melosovich and Serbia, and so Hillary and I
became very involved. We're living here in Chapqua, New York,
(22:09):
and New York has the largest Albanian population outside Albania,
and a lot of it's concentrated along where we live.
Down this block from where I'm talking, we have two
coast of our Albanian families. So I went there. I'd
never been to Albania before, and Edi Rama, the Prime Minister,
met me. He's a former mayor of Toronto, but he's
(22:34):
also a gifted artist and a former basketball player. He
is about six foot six and I stayed in what
was the official Communist guest house in Stalinus days and
it's a picture of how the world can move from
close to open, how the world can move from war
(22:54):
to peace. The new cabinet is about forty percent female,
the new Parliament is about the same. It's as one
of the most the youngest, most vigorous, and most gender
balanced governments in Europe. So I wish the whole world
could go to Albania for a day or two. I mean,
(23:14):
it's just such a beautiful place, and they know what
it's like to lose all their freedom. They're not having
these debates that we're having in America. All they wanted
to talk about was the future?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
You know, you told me one of the most moving
parts of your experience is that they brought together all
these children who their parents had named for you, and
you got to meet dozens of children who were named
Bill or William or Clinton.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah, it was amazing, but it was optimistic.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
It was the thing I think is important. I wish
every American could have seen it, not because of me,
but because that's what people think of America. It's what
people think we ought to be doing, saving lives, lifting
people together, recognizing people's right to be and chart their
own course. It was so touching.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Well, we're about to go into another election year, and
I think the stakes could not be higher. What is
your assessment of the stakes of this election in a
way that our listeners can really take to heart and
think about as we move forward.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Well, first, I think we should be under no illusion
there are a lot of Republicans who are just good
Americans who disagree with Democrats like you and me. That's fine,
But there is a hardcore now out there who believe
so strongly that there are dominance of the cultural issues
and the political issues is essential, and that they're willing
(24:59):
to basically say goodbye to our democracy, and I don't
want to say good about our democracy. I kind of
like it here. I like all these arguments, and I
like uncertainties, and I like fights, you know, in a
good sense.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
And even finding common ground to compromise to find solutions
for problems.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
You know, I talk to people all the time who
were even people who were big opponents of mine when
I was president, who say, you know, we're actually on
the verge of using our democracy. Liz Cheney wrote this
new book you know about it. I understand how a
lot of people don't believe that or can't believe that,
and they have so much to do every week to
(25:41):
pay their bills, keep body and soul together, think about
the things their kids needs. I understand that. But we
literally have a chance to lose the democratic wealth life
we have been trying to perfect over two hundred years.
And it's not just majority rule, it's also minority rights,
rule of law, individual rights, restraints on what government can
(26:04):
and can't do, And so I think that's important. I
agree there are imminent challenges that we have to address,
but it's interesting almost every problem we've got, let's take immigration.
This is actually a huge opportunity if we did like
Canada does, for example, if people had to sponsor immigrants,
(26:26):
not take financial responsibility for them, but you know, set
up centers where they could work. What happens is only
the places in Canada where people want immigrants get immigrants,
and they're filling labor holes all the time that need
to be filled. I mean, look at America has got
a negative birth rate. There are places in this country
(26:49):
that have huge shortages of workers, and most of these
folks are just asking for a chance to work. I
mean that's just one example. So if we were tactical
instead of ideological, if we were just sitting down from
opposite points of view to solve problems, I think most
of this stuff could be a lot better. You know,
(27:10):
George Bush and I do this leadership program together and
it's about half Republican, half Democrat. We get together and
meet with them and they try to solve problems together.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
These are mid career people.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Yeah, they're mid career people basically from twenty eight to
forty two more or less. And the only requirement for
getting in our program is you have to have something
to do that you do besides your day job, you
have to have some interest in something else. And it's
been a joy because they go to his library in
mine and we meet with them, and they go to
the LBJ library and his father's library, and they learn
(27:46):
how other people dealt with problems, and then they agree
to work on certain problems. Once they agree to work
on a problem, more than seventy percent of the time
they reach a consensus about what to do about it.
It's fascinating. So he and I have had a good time,
but we have about decided we're troglodites were the We
(28:07):
are the dinosaurs of the current age. Maybe because everything
now is supposed to be a continuous fight and it's
highly lucrative for the media, but it's a lousy way to.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Run a railroad, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
As I said, we have carried on a conversation now
for more than fifty years, and you know, part of
I think the real core of our relationships, our marriage
has been we started a conversation and we never stopped,
through good times and hard times, through happy times and
(28:39):
sad times. It doesn't mean we don't get frustrated and
upset with the other, because that's human nature, but we
always kept talking. You know, I'm not giving relationship advice.
Everybody has to find their own way. But I think
our ability to keep talking is one of the reasons
why we're still sitting here together.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, I did too, I think you know, we've just
came home from going to that cop and she got
a little sick on the trip. She hadn't been home
two minutes before. I knew what was wrong, what was
right after she was feeling. That happens if you invest
time in somebody over a long time, and we can
(29:19):
talk a lot about how people have to talk about everything.
I think one of the gifts you get from investing
time in somebody over a long time is what you
don't have to say what you see and know without
anybody saying something.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
There is no perfect handbook for life. You have to
figure it out as you go along. And you've always
got to decide whether whatever commitment you make in whatever
way or fulfilling that the bonds of love and the
benefits of love outweigh the burdens and the frustrations. And
(29:58):
that's a decision nobody can make for you. But we
do know that people in general are social animals. That's
why I think all this hate based politics they so
bad for us. So you know, the idea that our
differences are so much more important than what we have
in common. And you know, I may sound Pollyanna, but
(30:19):
I've lived for this for a long time and buy this.
And I have always believed that we should keep trying
to understand one another and keep reaching out to each other.
And I believe that whether it starts with Hillary and
me or anybody else's family, or the children or grandchildren
we have, it's a gift to be alive. It carries burdens,
(30:42):
it carries challenges, but I think just remembering that is important.
We should just never take it for granted, never take
it for granted. And I'm actually pretty optimistic, I always
have been, but I have been very worried at this
moment in history that our capacity city to grow and
(31:02):
cooperation and understanding is a little bit under out.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I want to end Bill by telling our listeners that you,
I believe are Santa's Chief Elf. I have never met
anybody who loves Christmas as much as you do. Literally,
from the moment we started dating, I realized you were
totally consumed by Christmas. By the decorating, the gift giving,
(31:35):
the tree trimming, the church services, everything about Christmas. And
I know that, you know, while I was in Dubai
at the Climate conference, you were putting ornaments on the
tree and you know, starting to decorate the house, which
I thank you for very much. You know, but I
think of your fundamentally optimistic and hopeful spirit as really
(31:59):
reaching a christ Shindo every year around Christmas. And you
know we now have our three grandchildren who make you know,
Christmas so meaningful to us. And what are some of
your favorite things to do during Christmas and your you
know love of this season and what it represents.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Well, it is true I am the ultimate Christmas Elf.
Even when I was in the White House, I wrapped
my own Christmas present, and I didn't do it for
brownie points. I did it because I like it and
because I think it put me in the right humor.
The whole idea of the fundamental gifts of life and
making new beginning and thinking of other people and loving
(32:44):
them as yourselves and trying to do that that's always
been important to me. Last night I put the ornaments
on our Christmas tree, and I admit the older I
get the fewer I put out used to be the
tree was about to teeth over every time, because I mean,
we've been married a long time and I have a
couple of ornaments to go back to before we got married.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
So and you always know if we didn't bring all
the boxes up, because you always say to me, well,
where was that ornament, you know, the one that we
got when Chelsea was born or whatever the you know,
the provenance might be.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
But anyway, I think it's a good thing for people
to be grateful for their blessings and to count them
and to recognize that most people, no matter how difficult
life is for them, can always think of somebody who's
worse off and in greater need, and therefore we should
(33:37):
try to lift them up. I also love being with
our grandchildren Christmas time. I love going to their Christmas pageants.
I love going to the church pageants. I love going
to see the rockets at Radio City, and I guess
we'll go to the train show with the Botanical Garden.
(33:57):
For it's all over being a great parent at Christmas.
If you live in and around New York, it's pretty
fun because there's so many things for your grandchildren to
go gaga over.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I love them well. We want to wish everyone a
really really happy holiday season. Happy Hanukkah to everyone out
there who is lighting candles trying to bring some light
into the dark. Merry Christmas to everyone out there who
is getting ready to celebrate Christmas, and particularly a happy,
(34:28):
healthy and peaceful New Year.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
I still believe in a place called hope.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yes for the monotheist there is where I think somehow
the Muslims and the Christians and the Jews can, will,
and must be reconciled. This is a dumb way to
live life, killing other people and stopping young people from
reaching their potential. But we can't get through it without
(34:57):
understanding where we've been and what's going on here. So
I appreciate your show and what you're trying to do
to tell people what's going on here.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
That's our goal.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Happy to your folks.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
That's it for this season.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
I'll be back soon, but in the meantime, check out
our archive of episodes and here's to health, happiness, and
peace in twenty twenty four. You and Me Both is
brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren,
Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Abadeen,
(35:41):
Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lona Valmorro,
and Lily Weber. Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and the
original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like you
and me both, tell someone else about it. And if
you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for?
(36:04):
You can subscribe to you and me both on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Thanks for listening.
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