Douglas Murray Sets the Record Straight on Joe Rogan/Dave Smith Controversy

After his recent appearance on “The Joe Rogan Experience" with comedian Dave Smith, author Douglas Murray was accused of practically saying, “don’t listen to anybody unless they have an Oxford degree.” But Douglas joins Glenn to set the record straight: He claims he never said that. Instead, he says he believes “experts HAVE let us down.” But having actual experience with a topic, like he does with the Israel/Hamas conflict, still makes a difference. Glenn, as a fan of both Murray and Smith, hears this side of the story.

Transcript

Below is a rush transcript that may contain errors

GLENN: Thank you. So I hate to get into this because it's been talked about for so long.

But I just -- I think I agree with you, Douglas.

And I just want to make sure that we are saying the same thing. Can you lay out the controversy that you've been embroiled in here recently?

DOUGLAS: You mean, I tend to be embroiled in quite a lot of controversies. Which one?

GLENN: The one where you're accused of saying, don't listen to anybody, unless they have an Oxford degree.

(laughter)

DOUGLAS: Which, of course, I never said. I never would say.

GLENN: Yeah, I know.

DOUGLAS: I think this was -- from my recent appearance on Joe Rogan.

GLENN: Yeah, yeah.

DOUGLAS: The similar thing I said, which has been I think misrepresented by a very large number of people, deliberately. Is that everybody has the right to say anything they like about anything.

But that doesn't mean that all opinion should be regarded as being equal.

GLENN: Uh-huh.

DOUGLAS: And when I was brought on to debate.

And it's not often that Joe Rogan's podcast does that. Normally, he has people give their opinion. But he felt that clearly, the pro-Israel voices like mine, had to be countered.

On air. And when I was talking about my recent book, the best-seller on democracies and death cults. Israel and the future of civilization.

I got into the weeds of what had been happening in the last two years, in the Middle East.

I got into it.

Not just because I had written about it. But I had seen it all up close.

I spent the last couple of years, mainly living it. Being embedded with the Israeli Defense Forces in Gaza and Lebanon, and elsewhere.

I have seen this war up close.

And I was being pitched against. Who was wildly, wildly uninformed.

On issue after issue. On spouting after spouting after spouting.

Turned out to never have been to the region. And I said, this is -- this is like, if we were to discover, the Chinese state media, as somebody on all the time.

Talking about America.

Claiming that America was a racist country.

The claiming black Americans are currently being lynched and sold into slavery.

If we discovered that person was rampaging across the Chinese media.

But he's never been to America.

Didn't speak English.

And obviously, so -- he's so wildly misinformed.

We would regard that person as being almost comical in their ignorance.

Certainly malevolent.

So why should it be, that when there are people at home, here in America. Who are also just not informed.

Just as many British people are not informed.

About big situations in the world that they're talking about. Why should their opinion be regarded as being somehow sacrosanct?

I don't think it is. And yet, I believe in standards. I believe that they have let us down badly. Experts have let us town badly.

But it doesn't mean there's no such thing as expertise. Or comparative expertise. In matters.

And if people don't understand that, and don't understand that, for instance, a journalist who can goes and reports, first hand. May well get things wrong.

But it's better than somebody who has never left their bedroom. And think they know the world.

GLENN: You know, I mean, read a quote. I think it was from Jefferson. And I've adapted it to modern times.

The man who reads nothing at all, is better educated, than the man who reads nothing, but social media.

He said, newspapers.

But I think that's -- I think that's the kind of expert we have now!

That are running around.

And I don't believe in, you have to be credentialed. Or anything like that. I don't think you have to have a formal education. I don't think that hurts.

But I think serious people can do serious study on their own.

Especially in today's world.

And become an expert in a field.

But, you know, you're -- also have to have enough humility to go, you know what, I'm not an expert on this.

I don't know. I've just done a lot of homework.

And I'm open to different opinions. But here's what I found.

DOUGLAS: Absolutely. And there's a lot of good that can come from that. And we've all done that to some extent.

That is, as you say, in particular, is able to push on people.

GLENN: Yeah.

DOUGLAS: Is extraordinary. Not least because of the lack of humility.

One of the things in debate, it was sort of near the comedian, he put me on with.

One of the things that was startling about it, is the sheer lack of humility of the guy I was debating.

I mean, he seems to think that he knew everything about Israel. And the idea.

Despite never having been there or met anyone. Or spoken with anyone on the ground.

Of the idea.

And he seemed to think that in the Israeli Defense Forces, how they should protect their people, from another massacre like October the 7th.

Maybe, the generals in the Israeli Army, and the politicians and others, who have been losing family, for the last 18 months.

Fighting in Gaza. Maybe they do know something more. Than -- than from even social media.

In Austin, Texas.

Maybe!

It's my view.

I mean, people quite often say to me. You know, what would you -- what would you tell this politician?

Or what would you tell this general, when you meet them?

And I always say, I don't tell them anything.

I listen. I listen.

Because that's much, much more important.

Because they know more about the proximate causes of the conflict.

And what they're doing to prevent it.

And when I hear and see these people. There was a guy. One of Joe Rogan's friends, who had been cropping up on social media recently.

And he accepted the challenge. Which was if you know, if you have a plan to how you would get 250 hostages back from the density buildup and booby trapped area of Gaza. And if you know how to get 250 hostages back. And how to kill or capture all the leadership of Hamas, if you have a better plan, than what the Israelis have been doing for the last 18 months, let me know, and I will pass it on to anyone I know, in Jerusalem.

Okay? And one of these comedians decides to take up this challenge. And you know what he said? He said among other things. Why don't they fight like men?

Why don't they fight like men? And I'm sorry. I've been to the funerals of young men who have no desire to have to ever be in Gaza again.

Who lost their lives, because they were fighting house to house with terrorists embedded in mosques and in hospitals and in civilian homes, and cropping up in tunnels, all over the place.

And if the idea is to me, Israeli Air Force. To level the place they could have done.

But they didn't, because they wanted to minimize casualties on their opponent's size. And minimize casualties on their own.

And if you have to put up with some doofus, claiming that he's the real man.

And he knows, because he's sitting in a podcast studio somewhere, two continents away.

And I think that's just objectionable on every level. And it's a lack of humility and understanding, that is almost pathological.

GLENN: I tell you, Douglas, I mean, I think I struggled from this a little bit. I've done this job for almost 50 years now.

But when I got into television, everything changes so rapidly.

I was -- I was pretty assured that I was right.

Thinking -- I spent a lot of money on research and everything else.

Really good, you know, we were buttoned up.

But when I left there, and I was reflecting on what I had done, I -- I came to the understanding, and I think this just comes from maturity. And experience.

And that is, the only thing I'm certain of, is that I'm not certain of anything.

DOUGLAS: Hmm.

GLENN: I don't -- I don't know. I'm like you. I will ask questions, I will voice my opinion, I will voice what I do know. But that doesn't necessarily make it the absolute truth.

I need to understand more of the situation.

DOUGLAS: Yes.

And you do that. And, you know, one of the things, Glenn.

Is that all of us who -- I hope -- I want to learn more.

And know more. And understand things better.

We -- we have that instinct.

But it also doesn't mean that on the things we know about. Including the things we've seen with our own eyes.

That we should be lacking in confidence. To say --

GLENN: Yes. It's a really tough place to be.

You have to have the confidence in what you do know. And you also have to have the humility to say. I don't know anything.

DOUGLAS: Right. And one of the things that I do know is that having seen war up close. And know what the difference is, between a death cult, as I call Hamas, a death cult like Hamas.

That fights for death, fights to bring death to its enemies, fights to bring death to its own side, even to its own children. And know the difference between a death cult like that. And the democracy like Israel or the United States of America and our armies, who fight for life.

Who fight to minimize casualties, on our own side. And to fight to minimize casualties on the enemy's side.

And there is all the difference in the world between these two things.

But when I see people fighting, it is complicated to tell the difference between a democracy and a death cult, I think they're lost.