Best of Outkick the Coverage: 06/26/2020

Clay is joined by Jason Martin in Nashville today, and the two talk about the legacy of Vince Carter, arguably the best dunker ever of any all-star caliber player. Who else is on each of their Top 5 All-Star dunker lists? Outkick’s NBA insider Chris Mannix is in the house to help Clay dissect the NBA bubble in Orlando. Plus, one of the new Outkick.com writers, Bobby Burack helps Clay close out an excellent week!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for listening to the best of out Kick the
Coverage podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday
morning from six to nine am Eastern three to six
am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. Find your local station
for OutKick the Coverage at Fox Sports Radio dot com,
or stream us live every morning on the I Heart
Radio app by searching f s R. This is the
best of OutKick the Coverage with Clay Travis on Fox

(00:22):
Sports Radio. Welcome back in Friday edition out Kick the Coverage.
Hope all of you are having a fantastic day wherever
you may be across this great country or this great land.
We were just talking about the MLB and the NBA
and the challenges they have, and one of the most
iconic NBA players of his generation is Vince Carter. And

(00:44):
Vince Carter has decided, after a monumental career in the
league to hang up the sneakers and move on. I
think he'll probably have a lot of different, really cool
options in the media, because I've seen this guy, uh
and the way he's already started to kind of dip
his toe into the media. He's four three years old now, um,
and he had a twenty two year NBA career, and uh,

(01:05):
this is just incredible. He hadn't really let us know
what he was gonna do, uh when with the NBA
season continuing, but he said that he's basically done. Uh.
Several different stats here. He's nineteenth all time and scoring
league's Rookie of the Year. Over his career, he averaged
sixteen points seven points per game. Uh. Played for eight

(01:26):
to eight different teams. I think most people out there
remember Vince Carter, at least I do. If you think
of him as kind of being at his apex as
a Toronto Raptor, is that fair? I think for most
of you that would be where you remember him. I
know he also had a decent little stretch with the
nets as well. Uh. And you think about a lot
of his iconic dunks over the years. He won the

(01:48):
Slam Dunk Contest back in two thousand. Uh and uh
really different. Uh. An incredible career that Vince Carter had,
playing all the way until he was forty three years old.
How would you remember? And a lot of you remember,
I would say, is it Frederick Weiss? Is that the
guy's name that he dunked over from France in the
in the Olympics. One of the all time most iconic

(02:11):
dunks seven foot something French big man. I think I'm
correcting that. Frederick Weiss. I believe that's his name. Uh,
the dunk in the Olympics. What would you remember most
from Vince Carter's career, Jason Martin, Just how hyped it
was after you saw what he was capable of doing

(02:32):
as a dunker, and then just how he seemed to
be comfortable in his own skin. Just look, I'm not
I guess I'm not gonna be Michael Jordan's, but I'm
gonna be okay. And he just he lasted so much
longer then I think you would think, because there were
times when it didn't even feel like he cared that
much about basketball, Like it was so natural to him
early in his career that he got caught up in

(02:55):
the half man half amazing thing. And he won the
dunk Contest, greatest dunk contest to me, performance wise, the
greatest dune contest performance I've ever seen, just still blows
me away. But when he comes out, he's fifth out
of North Carolina, fifth pick out of u n C.
His numbers are good, and people are talking about him
as one of the greatest players of all time, and
that's not what ended up happening. But he ended up

(03:16):
playing for over two decades in the league. He won
the Rookie of the Year in nine. He played for
a lot of different teams. But yeah, you're right, obviously,
I think the Raptors is what most people are gonna remember.
Then probably the Nets, but I can already throw in
Magic Sons, Mavericks, Grizzlies, King's Hawks. I actually think a
lot about Vince Carter the same way I do about

(03:39):
Grant Hill. Just two guys that you you really thought
we're gonna be super special. Now Grant Hill dealt with
some serious injuries. You can also look at somebody like
Penny Hardaway, who I don't think he ever ended up
being what he could have been because of injuries as well.
Carter not necessarily in the same vein although I mean
he was, he was banged up from time to time,
but just an ultimate editor that just played because he

(04:01):
wanted to keep playing. And look, he was still good
like he was still good enough to contribute on the floor,
and he never made it just about basketball. That's what
you're talking about. With maybe what he's doing in the media,
he's doing podcasts, He's gonna have options, just like you mentioned.
But when you look at what he's done, he's third
on the all time list with forty one regular season

(04:22):
games played, nineteenth that you mentioned on the scoring list,
he's a strong Haul of Fame candidate. He in in
Toronto he was averaging twenty three, five and four, and
then with the Nets, he was averaging five and five.
Never played in the NBA finals in over two decades,
never made it to the finals, and I think that's
always gonna be the one thing you look at and say,

(04:43):
he's somebody you thought was gonna be good enough to
carry a team there, and it never necessarily happened for
him like that. But Vince Carter's just I'm I'm happy
to have gotten to watch his career. And I thought
maybe he was just gonna fade off into the sunset,
not this year but long ago. But no, he was
still productive. He made his last bucket. He made a

(05:05):
three in an overtime game for the Hawks against the
Knicks in a game that basically turned out to be
it because the league got shut down because of COVID nineteen.
He didn't know at the time. But I remember as
soon as they shut the league down that weekend, I
went on Fox Sports Radio and I said, that might
be our last experience watching Vince Carter because at his age,

(05:25):
with everything else, this might be the time to shut
it down. And then of course yesterday he said, I'm
officially done playing. I'm retired. This is uh, this is
an interesting question. I think that comes out of Vince
Carter being out, and it is this, Um, what do
we think about his statu Is he the greatest dunker
in the history of the NBA. I mean, I think

(05:47):
he's the most spectacular. I think you can make an
argument and let me let me also add in this caveat,
I'm talking about guys who were actually good players, right,
because I think you have to add like, there are
guy who, uh you know, are almost like and one
mixtapes right back in the back of the day where
they are renowned for their leaping ability and their dunking ability,

(06:09):
but they were never necessarily the greatest player in the league, right,
or an All Star caliber player where you were like, oh,
this guy can really be something special. And I'm trying
to think like Seawan Merriman was a good player but
early in his career his dunks were just like, at
times breathtaking, right, I mean, his athleticism was off the charts.

(06:33):
Probably another good example. That's a good examp. There are
lots of guys who win the NBA All Star dunk
contests that aren't ever going to be All Stars themselves, right, Um,
I think you can make an argument that Vince Carter
is up there. I'm gonna just give you five names,
and you tell me whether you agree that they are
without question top ten dunkers who are also All Star

(06:58):
caliber players. All Right, I'm running through right now. I
haven't even written this list down. I think I can
just do it off the top of my head. Here
are five that I feel confident almost everybody out there
will have in their list. All Right, I just said
Vince Carter. I think most people would say for an
All Star caliber player, Vince Carter is one of the
best dunkers of his generation. And by the way, I'm

(07:18):
talking about like people that I've actually watched play, So
I'm not gonna go all the way back like I'm
sure Will Chamberlain had some incredible dunks back in the day.
But these are guys that to me immediately stand out,
and I think, man, that was an iconic dunker who's
also an All Star caliber player, in other words, well rounded,
not just an athlete, but also an All Star basketball player.

(07:40):
Michael Jordan's I think Michael Jordan's on anybody's list of
the top ten best all stars in the last you know,
thirty five or forty years. I think you would have
to put Michael Jordan's on that list of the best dunkers. Um.
This one, I think also is from this same era,

(08:00):
and I think you'd have to give him credit for
it because they had some really interesting head to head battles.
I think you'd have to put Dominique Wilkins on that list. Uh,
And Dominique Wilkins was a great basketball player but also
an incredible dunker. And if you're a young guy out
there and you're listening right now, I think watching the

(08:21):
Slam Dunk contest back in the day with Spud Web
and Dominique Wilkins and Michael Jordan's, I think that's something
that you would really enjoy doing and it would be
worthwhile in your time to go and spend some time there.
So I feel good about all three of those guys.
This one may be a little bit outside of of
the expected realm, but I think Blake Griffin, now he's

(08:42):
a little bit big, right, and that's always a challenge.
Big men don't get as much credit for being outstanding
lee athletic as they do. But Blake Griffin is an
All Star caliber player and over the years Lob City
and beyond, what he was able to do from a
dunking per spective is pretty phenomenal, you know, to consider

(09:03):
in terms of again All Stars who were incredible dunkers,
Vince Carter, Michael Jordan's, Dominique Wilkins, Blake Griffin. Let's see
who I want to put in my five spot as
a guy that I feel like, Man, this was a
All Star caliber player and this one maybe I'm going
to count him as an All Star, but a lot

(09:23):
of people are gonna remember him from the years when
he was super fat. Shawn Kemp Seawan Kemp was one
of the most electric dunkers that has ever existed in
the history of the NBA. How many times did Shaun
Kemp make the All Star Game? I feel like he
made the All Star Game a lot of years, so
I think he counts as a electric dunker that was

(09:44):
incredible also All Star caliber player during his career. So
my five basically over the last let's say thirty thirty
years or so. Vince Carter, Michael Jordan's, Dominique Wilkins, Blake Riffin,
Sean Kemp. What do you think of my list? J Mart?
Who would you add? I would take a few off, um,

(10:06):
but I understand that. I thought about Blake Griffin, and
it's not because he's not an All Star caliber player.
I think he's a good dunker. This is the way
I go. I have Vince at the top of the list.
I've got Dominique, and the one thing about Vince, Dominique,
m J and another guy that I'm gonna mention is
I think they fully understood how to be like out

(10:29):
of your mind dunk contest performers on top of being
All Star level players. I have Lebron written down because
he's a great in game dunker. I don't think he's
particularly creative, but he's breathtaking in game as a dunker.
There's a there's a different classifier here. Yeah, Lebron is
an interesting one because he never actually competed in the

(10:51):
Slam Dunk Con. Because He's not a dunk contest guy
that That's what I'm saying. He I don't think he
has that gene in him. I think he knew that
he might have won because of his name, because well,
you know how the voting goes with the with the
guys that are out there and everything. The other two
guys that I mentioned, you did. The other two guys
that I have written down, one of them, I've only
really gotten to see a lot of highlights of. But

(11:11):
Dr J and what he was able to do with
the rock the cradle and the fact that he's one
of the greatest players of all time, that's a good one.
I I took him out of my equation, so I
should clear that up because I never remember watching Dr
J play. So when I'm saying like, these are guys
that in my life as an NBA basketball fan, I
remember watching playing, Dr J was just a little bit

(11:33):
before my time. But he's one that's certainly I think
you're right in terms of the way that he was
iconic moving with the basketball and dunking. I think that's
a I think that's a strong argument as well. And
then the other one that I'm gonna mention is Dwight Howard.
Dwight Howard who won dunk contests at a height that
it's hard to You talked about how difficult it is
that size to do it, just could jump out of

(11:55):
the gym had every God given gift that you could
possibly have. Now was he able to maximize that on
the floor. He's an All star level player that carried
an Orlando team to the NBA Finals that lost to
Kobe Bryant and the l A Lakers. But Dwight Howard was,
you know, a top two pick in the draft that
looked like he was gonna be everything. His career has
certainly taken a bad path in recent years. But Dwight

(12:18):
Howard to me, I would put in over Blake Griffin.
By the way, I was. I wanted to look up
Sean Kemp because I felt I think it was six
time all start, time NBA All Star, so I think
he would classify in uh in terms of being one
of one of my guys. Now, look, I said five
at the top ten, So you added several more. I'm
sure Twitter wants to react as well at Clay Travis

(12:40):
Um and we'll hit some of those that we may
have left out because I'm sure that we did. When
we come back iconic dunkers, who was the best dunker
that has ever existed? In your mind? And again that
you've watched play so and I understand I'm forty one,
Dr j just a little bit before my time, So
I don't doubt at all that if you're if the
you're like, oh, Dr Jay has got to be on

(13:02):
the list. But for if you're forty and by the way,
if you're thirty, you might be like I, I never
really saw Michael Jordan play very much. I'm not sure
Michael Jordan's on this list. Uh. And you might not
remember Dominique Wilkins very well as all very well at all.
But I would say those are the five that I
have seen that are all star caliber players that have
performed at an incredibly high level. UM. Vince Carter Hall

(13:25):
of Famer. With the question just based on longevity, I
would be fine if he gets in. I don't I
could make an argument either way, but I'll say, yeah,
I think he gets in based on his longevity. Um,
obviously he did, he have he never got to the
what was the I know you said this, Yeah, what

(13:47):
I remember about that Toronto Raptors era is didn't he
travel to do graduation at U n C before a
Game seven at some point in his career least? So
I mean again, remember that was that was one of
my things that I was saying, is just like there
were times when I didn't feel like basketball was all
for him, which I appreciate. I mean, we had a
lot of things going on, and that's why he's gonna

(14:07):
be That's why he's gonna be successful going forward in
life because he I don't think he ever put all
his eggs in one basket. If you want to go
back to your bubble discussion, that's like the bubble, you're
putting all your eggs in one basket and hope that
bubble doesn't get punctured. In the NBA side, Vince Carter
didn't put all of his eggs in that one basket.
And that may have kept him from like elite elite status,

(14:28):
but he was so good for so long, and he
was a great ambassador, and then from what I can remember,
he's just kind of an affable guy in general. Wasn't
hard to get along with at all. Yeah, I think
he's a great teammate. I think he will make Uh,
the the All Star list. I mean, you play as
long as he did, and you are a member of
so many different iconic moments like Vince Carter was. In

(14:51):
terms of being an NBA fan, I think he'll definitely
get in. This is out kicked the coverage with Clay Travis.
Chris Mannox joins us now at SI Chris Mannix you
can find him there covers the n B a R
NBA insider Chris Baseball announced their plan to come back.
They're basically, it appears, using the home stadiums and their

(15:13):
players will have a relatively normal life. They won't be quarantined.
In other words, the NBA sticking with the quarantine bubble
in Orlando. Pretty divergent opinions from the Major League Baseball,
UH perspective and the NBA perspective. Which one is gonna
look better? I mean, if I had to to argue
any position, it would be that the NBA looks better, um,

(15:37):
for no other reason than they are creating a sanitized
quarantine environment, whereas baseball you're just gonna be on the move.
You're going to be traveling on planes and busses and
in hotels presumably, UM, and that just increases your risk
of contracting coronavirus. Now, I'm not convinced, Claire, that any
of it's going to really work. I think that both

(15:58):
sports have the entil to be significantly corupted by positive
tests that could make their respective seasons and postseasons look
kind of goofy. But at least basketball is trying to
create a environment that will get them through this without
a rash of positive tests. I have very little confidence
in baseball is going to do it alright. So one

(16:20):
of the big discussion points, and I'm sure you saw
the p g A talking and you've seen the direction
that we are moving in general where l s U, Clemson,
Kansas State. Every time somebody test positive, it's a big
news story. We know you saw the Sacramento King stories.
There's been a lot of different NBA players that have
tested positive. Let's start with this question, Um, do you

(16:41):
know whether or not the NBA players are going to
not only be tested for the coronavirus but also antibody
tested when they arrive in Orlando. Yeah? I believe both,
and my understanding is that testing will be a daily
thing down there. Um, I don't know exactly what kind

(17:01):
of tests they'll be doing specifically, is it the throat
culture that they take, the shallow nasal swab or the
incredibly invasive deep nasal swab, But my understanding is that
they'll be tested daily in the antibody test. A lot
of players have already had it, and a lot I'm
sure we'll do it afterwards, but I think that's something

(17:22):
that will be at least in the beginning, will be
taken and then they'll go from there. So the antibody test,
And this is I'm kind of laughing to myself because
you and I never would have anticipated if you had
told us the last year that you were going to
be coming on, like and you're basically gonna have to
turn into a virologist or an epidemiologist in order to
talk about supports. So like just hearing you talk about
the deep nasal swab versus the normal DASL, I mean

(17:44):
like it's kind of a weird. Like if we just
were able to parachute into you know, June and I've
been like, Hey, I'm gonna interview Chris Mannix about the
n b A, and we had been able to listen
to this a year ago, we'd be like, what what
in the world has happened. But so I had the
deep nasal swab done because I was like curious for
this reason, because so many athletes and coaches are going
to be tested. I tested negative, but I wanted to

(18:06):
go through the process and see what it was actually
like so I could at least experience it. Um. But
you talked about this antibody issue, and we've talked about
this a lot. We don't know exactly when the first
person with the coronavirus was in the United States, but
we can at least know it was in January, February,
and March. And we know that these guys were playing

(18:26):
games in front of crowds in January, February, and March
a lot of times on the coast where this thing
was growing pretty substantially. It stands to reason that a
lot of NBA players probably already had this never knew
they had it at all. Right, don't you think that's
that's that's probably likely. Oh, I think that's almost a guarantee.
I mean, and I only based that on the number

(18:48):
of players that I've talked to that have had it
and didn't know they had it. I mean, you can
go all the way back to Donovan Mitchell with the
Jazz who was literally on the floor at Oklahoma City
getting ready to play already five minutes um and he
tested positive the next day. Like this is that there
There's no question that there are a number of players
that that had it and didn't know that they hadn't

(19:10):
played right through it. And even now like you're seeing
some of the names come out because guys are releasing
their own information personally, but I know for a fact
that there are a number of a high number of
other players have also tested positive that just aren't having
their names out there because they don't want to the
right there just yet. So you've got I mean, you've
got guys, a lot of guys that were in the

(19:30):
last couple of days since the NBA started testing protocols,
have been very surprised that they tested positive. So in
some ways this is a positive, right because when a
guy test positive, uh and or test positive for antibodies
in theory, based on all the evidence out there, it
seems unlikely that he's at least going to be able
to catch it again in a in the new year term, right, um.

(19:53):
And the more people on a team who have had it,
the less it would spread in the event someone actually
catches it. Right. So, while a lot of people are
reacting like, oh my god, look at all these positive tests,
in some ways, whether it's college football, NFL, you know,
Ezekiel Elliott, NBA players until the season actually starts, in

(20:13):
many ways, it's actually positive to have guys who were
testing positive because that eliminates them as a risk factor
in theory once the season begins. Yeah, in some ways,
it's like a herd immunity, right, like you you have
a bunch of guys that have tested positive that, uh,
it just creates a better environment. Um. But I mean, see,
here's the biggest question I have over the next couple

(20:35):
of weeks, like there's going to be positive tests inside
the bubble, like I mean covering boxing. I have seen
what Nevada and Top Rank have been going through over
the last few weeks where they have a very tight bubble,
but they are still getting having fights. Being scrapped because
of positive test just keeps happening. My question I have
about the NBA is how many positive tests or how

(20:58):
many teams have to be deeply impacted before they kind
of I don't know if the scrub the whole thing
is the right phrase. But you decide it's not for
a real championship. That's the big question I have, because
you're gonna have I mean, there's no no question. You
gotta have three or four players on one team in
the playoffs test pots. I think that's a foregone conclusion
that it's going to have. And will the NBA continue

(21:18):
with this, uh, this desire to crown a legitimate champion.
They really haven't spelled that out just yet. I mean
I read every page a d thirteen page memo, and
that's one of the things that's still a little bit ambiguous,
Like how many positive tests um have to happen before
the NBA decides this isn't how we're going to finish
the season. It's a great question, and I think it's
the most important question because the first version of that

(21:41):
question was if you're going to shut everything down like
happen with Rudy Gobert as soon as there's a positive
case and you're gonna quarantine everybody, you can't come back
at all, because that is a going to happen, right
and uh, And now the p g A is kind
of grappling with that. How many tests does it take
to be positive where you're just like, yeah, this was

(22:03):
an experiment that didn't work. Do you have any sense
for that? Like how tough is Adam Silver going to be?
Because that drumbeat of negativity that exists on social media
every time somebody tests positive, it's like the first comment
is go ahead and stop at all. Right, But there's
a lot of money at stake here. The NBA has
spent a lot of time trying to figure out how
to do this. How resilient do you get the sense

(22:25):
that Adam Silver is going to be to the negative
drumbeat of positive test very resilient? And I don't know
if there's a benchmark that the NBA has for a
number of tests where they just say, you know, this
is ridiculous. But you know, one thing I've said and
written and talk to you about is that the NBA
badly wants to protect the postseason, like they want to

(22:46):
crown a legitimate champion one way, the If it's not
holly legitimate, they'll find a way to crown champion no
matter what. Like they want to do to go through
these playoffs and finish the season with an NBA Finals
with a champion and fulfill those TV obligations that they have,
the ESPN Turner and even the regional networks that are
going to get their piece of the pie in the

(23:07):
end of the regular season, in the first round of
the playoffs. So I think they're going to be incredibly resilient.
I think there's a there's a very good chance, Clay
that this from the outside world that it starts to
look really goofy, but the NBA just keeps plowing forward
because they want to finish the year. A couple of
people who have made interesting decisions. What is the NBA
response you have heard too? I believe it's de Vis

(23:28):
gortech Uh making the decision not to come back, or sorry,
Dave Devise per Tons, all these names run together, Devise
per Tons, I believe right making the decision not to
come back for the for the Washington Wizards. What is
the NBA reaction. I've seen some of his teammates kind
of not necessarily take it. Well. I gotta be honest
with you. If I was in his position and I
was about to be a free agent and make a

(23:49):
lot of money, and I had had double a c
L injuries like he had, there's no way I would
play when I don't believe my team has a chance
to win a championship. No, the the NBA doesn't love
Burton's decision, and they're like, they can understand Avery Bradley. Certainly,
it's got a son that is dealing with the respiratory illness.
They can understand Trevor Reesa. I mean, that's a deeply
personal situation with his his his ex, and he's got

(24:13):
to deal with that. The Burton stuff is more of
a you know, precautionary measure that I agree with you.
Burton's is well within his rights and should do something
like that. He is in line for potentially at twelve
to fifteen million dollar per year contract. You don't screw
with that. You don't mess with that for playing eight
games in a meaning, meaningless regular season where the maybe

(24:35):
the only outcome that that you know could happen would
be suffering some kind of injury that would be consequential.
What why the NBA hates it though, is that there's
a trickle down effect from it if Burton doesn't play.
There's no question Bradley Beal is probably looking around going, well,
why am I going to play? Like I have no
offside here. I'm gonna come back and play with John
Wallen next year in Burton's will be back next year
and let's just gear up for that season. I actually

(24:57):
texted before I spoke to you with in the Wizards
organization and we were kind of joking, like, are you gonna,
you know, suit up George Morrisson for like fifteen N's
the game at this point because I think there's going
to be uh several of their high profile players that
are play like free games and bill out or don't
play at all. So Burton's was kind of the first domino,
and I think there'll be a lot of subsequent dominoes

(25:18):
with a team like the Wizards moving forward. But but
keep an eye Clay in the coming days. Like I've
long said that, you know, it's the young players we've
talked about, the Jayson Tatums, the Donovan Mitchell's, the guys
in the line for max contracts. They're not the ones
you have to watch for following out of these things.
It's the Burtons types. And there are a bunch of
guys like that. It's you know, Marcus Morris with the Clippers,
Paul Millsap with the Denver Nuggets Danila Gallinari with the Thunder.

(25:40):
These are guys in their early to mid thirties that
are looking at maybe the last contract of their professional careers,
and how comfortable are they going to be going out
there after having virtually I don't say virtually no warm up,
but a very limited warm up, uh and potentially risking injury.
I mean the Burtons was the exact type of player
I anticipate pitted bowing out, Like, don't think you'll be

(26:01):
the last. You talked to a ton of people in
the n b A and you came on I think
it was last week or two weeks ago, to talk
about how you saw this thing breaking out in terms
of whose advantage, whose disadvantage. Because it's basically a tournament
more than it's a continuation of the existing season. What
are you hearing from executives as they assess how this
thing is going to play out and which teams they

(26:23):
think stand to gain the most by the way this
situation is set up. Honestly, they have no idea, Like
the the executives I talked to, I I put it
this way, I have yet to hear an executive from
a playoff team say, oh, we're screwed, like I had
my best player come back, you know, twenty pounds heavier,
out of shape. They're not seeing that yet. But again,

(26:43):
as we speak, there's still guys just kind of trickling in.
They're doing one on one workouts and you know, just
starting to get in with assistant coaches. We haven't seen
five on five yet, and that really is the first
benchmark or measuring stick that team is gonna look for
to see where they currently stand. So every thing else,
you know, at this point is complete conjecture, speculation, you know,
looking at numbers. They these guys need to see what

(27:06):
their players look like when they go through five on
five scrimmages. See who's in shape, see who's sharp, and
and you know, again frankly, see who's actually there and
ready to participate. Okay, So you yourself, I think told
us a couple of teams, like if you were going
to take a flyer on the gambling situation. Because you've
got a lot of teams. Everybody's focused on the Lakers,

(27:28):
the Clippers, the Bucks. But what is really kind of
interesting is looking at some of these lower tier teams
that could theoretically make a run. Who do you like
outside of the traditional powers that you look now at
the way the NBA is set up and you say, boy,
this team could make a run. I'll give you the update.
By the way, I'm looking at Fox bet Milwaukee, Bucks,
Lakers both plus two fifty Clippers are three to one,

(27:52):
and then there's a lot of teams that are all
double digit underdogs. Who stands out to you? You know
I I brought this up on your show a few
weeks back and actually wrote about it a little bit
later on after we thought to me in the Sixers
to me are a smart bet um, And I called
Brett Brown the Sixers coach, and kind of ran my
theory by them, Like, you know, you guys suck at
shooting threes. You know everybody's in the sucker shooting threes. Uh,

(28:14):
you've got Ben Simmons back. Joel Embi claims he's working
out six days a week. Who knows how true that is,
but um, you know that there's some merit I think
to the argument that Philadelphia is the team most equipped
to win those down and dirty, grimy five type of
slug fest. I mean, they're not a prolific scoring team,
They're not a prolific three point shooting team. Simmons, who

(28:37):
was done for the season in mid March, is going
to play and probably give them thirty thirty five minutes
to night. I mean, they they are almost built for
a pandemic playoffs. They really are. And you know, I
think there's a lot of variable it's not the least
of which is you've got to kind of like each other.
And I'm not sure the Sixers do. You know down
in Orlando, you've gotta be around your teammates a lot.

(28:57):
But on paper, Philadelphia, to me is one of the
best long shot bets you can possibly make at this point.
And what what is it in particular about Philadelphia? I mean,
they've obviously had a lot of internal tension with their
team getting a wrong and getting along and everything else.
But right now, you could get the Sixers at one
mm hmm, I do it. I mean, look, their their

(29:20):
ability to defend at three positions at an elite level
is the first one. I mean, Simmons, You've got Embiid,
You've got Josh Richardson, You've got guys that can lock
you down individually, and they also have a guy that,
at least on paper, should be able to give you
high percentage shots in Joel and beat so while everybody

(29:41):
else like Houston Milwaukee is shooting like low thirties from
three and and giving and by the way, giving the
Sixers a great transition team opportunities to get up and
down in the half court. If your Philadelphia, you can
just du't put into embiid and try to win like
the old Jordan Bulls. One of the old team Elijah
want Rockets one played through the post and succeed that way.

(30:02):
So I just again, I need to see what they
look like when they come back and exactly where Simmons
is at with his back injury. But they just make
too much sense as one of those long shot bets
to to kind of put something together and make a run.
Is this more? Does this matter more for Lebron the
way this season ends than almost anybody else in the league.
Because you've got the Warriors that are going to surge

(30:24):
back into contention in the West. You've got the Nets,
which theoretically when Kevin Durant comes back, assuming he's healthy,
and Kyrie, they're gonna be a lot better. The overall
depth and talent across the league is going to surge
whenever they come back for another season. The Lakers have
a lot of older pieces in theory. Is this Lebron's

(30:44):
last best chance to win an additional championship? As the
focal point? I know he could hang on for a
while as a guy who's a role player, but as
the as the driving force for a team. Is this it? Yeah?
You can make that argument for two reasons. One is
what you said that the league around him is going
to get better next year. I mean, the Warriors I

(31:05):
think are at least the candidate to trade that top
pick and get a veteran player to add to that
mix to fit into their timeline with guys in the
early thirties. And the Nets I think are gonna be
great with Durant and Kyrie back next year. And look,
we look at Lebron as indefatigable, and it's fair because
he's he's never shown any significant drop off in his game.
But at some point, you know, in December, he's gonna

(31:27):
be thirty six years old. You've got to anticipate there's
gonna be a slippage there. And Anthony Davis, as great
as he's played this year, he's been fragile in his career,
He's been banged up, so you know, you can certainly
make the case that Davis might get hurt, might deal
with some kind of injuries that would derail the Lakers
next season. I mean this, I look, this is the
Lakers I think best chance during the Lebron era to

(31:49):
win the championship. I mean, circumstances can certainly change that
my trader acquires somebody else, But right now, as you
look at the landscape, this is the year the Lakers
need to win. Avery Bradley steps out. Let's go into
the Laker match up against the Clippers, which I think
most people anticipate is going to happen at some point.
I would make the argument that the Clippers are now
the better team top to bottom. I'm I'm betting you

(32:09):
probably would agree, and also that the Clippers would be
advantaged by not having crowds president because they were going
to be the underdog in all seven games in terms
of crowds if they were playing in the Staples Center.
Would you agree with both of those premises and would
you agree that maybe the Clippers have what it takes
to get past the Lakers. How would you assess that
matchup in the event it happens, Yeah, I would. I mean,

(32:31):
you know, a seven game series, Staples is all going
to be purple and gold there no matter who's got
home courts, So that's certainly part of it. I think
the Clippers, the time off probably benefits them. I mean,
Kauai we know is the issues Paul George and battling
different injuries. I mean, you know, at least as far
as what we know, it definitely benefits them more than
it benefits Uh, the Lakers and the Bradley loss is huge.

(32:54):
I mean, since is a guy that was playing twenty
five minutes the game. I mean he was an integral
part of their back court rotation. His last game or
one of his last games, I forget if it was
the last one, but it was against the Clippers and
scored twenty four points. And he was having his best
month to date in the month of March, averaging like
ten points per game playing close to thirty minutes. I mean,
you do have some depth there in l A. Alex

(33:15):
Caruso has been really good alongside Lebron. The numbers back
that up. Um, god knows if they signed j R. Smith,
I don't know. How that's gonna go. But you know,
Danny Green is still there, but losing Avery Bradley takes
away a ball handler, a three point shooter, and on
ball defenders. Those guys don't grow on trees like Bradley's loss.
I think could be the kind of loss that tips
the balance of power in the Western Conference. Good stuff

(33:38):
as always anything else. As we let you go and
we roll out into the weekend and into the July
four holiday, what's next for NBA fans? What should we
be paying attention to for those of us who are
intrigued and interested in how this is going to play out? Yeah,
I mean, I think it's just the protocols moving forward.
I mean, we've seen the medical protocols in that report.

(33:59):
But you know, what does the NBA say about a
run of positive tests? I don't. Look, you know, these
are young guys, healthy guys, but the most part, there's
no significant help risk associated with them. But how far
and we talk about at the top of how far
will the NBA go if their playoffs start to look goofy?
If you get to the conference semifinals and two teams
are just decimated by injuries, will the NBA continue on

(34:21):
this path and say this is the real conference semifinals,
or will they pivot away and call it something else.
That's the one area Clayer that just really isn't a
lot of clarity yet. I know Adam Silver has been
talking to the Union about it. I think over the
next few days we will get more insight into what
the NBA's mindset is on that. I know I said
last question, but you said something that I think is
interesting and worth unpacking. It's true that these guys as

(34:42):
young and healthy themselves, in considering that they're not going
to be exposed to very many people in the bubble,
are not under that much physical danger themselves. To what
extent do you think the NBA players know that? In
other words, it's very easy if you just put on
the news, or if you just read headlines, or if
you sit around on social media to really get lost

(35:03):
in fear right, it's very very easy. And I think
if you're young, that can be easy as well, because
the data doesn't really get shared. To what extent do
you think the average NBA player is well informed about
the health risk to them, specifically based on their age.
I actually think they're very informed about it, But I
would also say that there are a lot of players

(35:25):
that have circumstances that mirror Avery Bradley's, whether it's you know,
a spouse or a girlfriend that has some kind of
immune issue, or a child that's dealing with something. And
these guys are going to effectively jump in in mid July,
and you know, several of them that I've talked to
are people around them say that they're legitimately tormented by it,
like they don't know what to do, Like they want

(35:46):
to be around their kids. You know, the NBA is
big on that, like having their kids come out there
and shoot around with them, like a lot of NBA
players do that. Um, they want to be around them,
but they're just there's the process and the information about
how dangerous is for loved ones. I don't think and
I have yet to talk to a player or a
representative a player that says, like my guy is scared
of contracting what it might mean for them. It's always

(36:09):
about what it means for people around them, which I
think is it's certainly a legitimate concern if you've get
family members effectively becoming your roommates for several months down Orlando,
no doubt Chris Mannos always great s I Chris Mannos
following they appreciate the time a man have a good weekend.
You got be sure to catch live editions about Kicked
the coverage with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern,

(36:32):
three am Pacific. We haven't talked a lot. We we
did in that discussion a little bit with Chris Mannox
about Avery Bradley and his decision not to play. You
guys know that I believe sports needs to return and
that it's important for our country to get back to
a sense of normalcy by having sports return. But let

(36:53):
me just be clear here as well, every individual athlete
or coach should have the right about whether they want
to play without having to worry about what other people think. Right.
The great thing about America, I believe that you are
going to be safe, especially if you are a young

(37:13):
and healthy athlete. But everybody's got different family situations, everybody's
got different, unique lifestyle concerns. I'm not walking in every
single person shoes. So if a guy like Avery Bradley,
because of his family situation, does not feel comfortable going
down to Orlando and playing in that bubble for the remainder,

(37:35):
of the NBA season. More power to him for not going.
I don't begrudge anybody, and I would say this is
the same thing college football players, NFL, college basketball, n
b A, NHL, major League baseball. Everybody should be able
to make the decision not to work. That's fundamental to
our rights as Americans. And if you don't believe it

(37:57):
makes sense on an individual basis, because a family can
scerns or maybe just personal considerations of your own to
come back to work, you shouldn't do it. We shouldn't
have to bully anybody to being able to come back. Now,
I think there are lots of people out there that
would be happy to work. For instance, if some major
league baseball players are like, I'm not gonna get paid
enough money, I think there are a ton of minor

(38:18):
league baseball players that would love the opportunity to come
and play in a sixty game season, even in the
middle of a pandemic. And so if they make the
decision a major league baseball player doesn't want to play,
or an NBA player doesn't want to play, or somebody
in the NFL doesn't want to play, that's a hundred
percent there right. It should be a next man up scenario,
just like it is whenever you have an injury. And

(38:40):
I have to say, that's what I think the vast
majority of you out there thinking and listening to me
would would agree with as well. Like I don't think
this is remotely controversial, even if it's a great player, right, Uh,
even if it's a great player, even if Kawhi Leonard,
which I don't think is gonna happen obviously, But even
if somebody like Kauai said, you know what, I don't
feel comfortable coming back and playing. You're not gonna get paid, right,

(39:03):
that's got to be the scenario as well. But if
you decide not to come back and play, that you're right.
And I think you should have the decision and may
be able to make that decision like anybody else, and uh,
and we should respect it. And so whether it's Avery Bradley,
it's a little bit different with Davis Bertans, right, because
he's got more to worry about in terms of he's
a free agent and he doesn't want to injure himself.

(39:25):
But I've said this for a long time. If you
told me, and I've used it to talk about college
football players, if you told me, Hey, Clay Travis, tomorrow,
your voice might stop working on the radio, but if
you sit out for a month, you'll never have any
concerns with your voice for the rest of your career.
I'd probably sit out for a month if you told

(39:46):
me there was a decent chance that I could have
major voice issues for the rest of my life. Why
would I risk it. I'm gonna make a lot of
money talking. Why would I risk my voice, which is
how I make my livelihood. If you're an NBA player
and you're set to make a ton of money as
a free agent, and your team has no chance to
win a championship, why in the world would you come back.

(40:08):
So I kind of agree with both of those decisions
that have been made in the context of the NBA return.
I understand sitting out instead of coming back and playing
eight games for the Washington Wizards that really don't matter
very much. And I certainly understand sitting out for health
related reasons because you're concerned about your family situation. Doesn't
mean necessarily that I would make the same decision. But again,

(40:30):
everybody has unique circumstances that are different than what you
or I might be going through, and so that decision,
to me, can make an awful lot of sense, and
I don't think anybody should be criticized for making it.
I think every pro athlete and every college athlete should
have the right to make that decision on their own
without feeling the peer pressure of having to go just

(40:51):
because other people are going. Now, I have said a lot,
and you guys know, if you listen to the show,
young and healthy people have very little risk. So I
would go. If I were an NBA player, I was
a Major League Baseball player, I would play. Uh this
year NFL player, same thing if I were an athlete,
if I were a tennis player, golf or whatever else,
I would be doing it. That's my personal decision, but
I wouldn't judge anybody else who makes a choice not

(41:14):
to do that. This is outkicked the coverage with Clayt's
travas well. You are joined now um with Bobby Barack
and uh Bobby this story. We were just talking about
Jason Martin and I about the alleged news that was
found in Bubba Wallace's garage, which ended up being a

(41:37):
pull door. NASCAR has released a photo of it. Uh
NASCAR says, now we should have said an alleged a noose,
which certainly would have maybe changed the way the story
was covered. Um, because uh, you know the intent of
that poll rope can matter. And I am not an
expert in how you tie ropes, but I do know
for anybody out there who has been in the Boy Scout,

(42:00):
they teach you because my kids were in the Boy Scouts,
they teach you how to do a variety of not
ties and uh and people you know, can can fashion
many different ways to create a loop handle so that
you could be able to pull down a garage door.
So first question for you, you you write it out kick.
You can follow Bobby on Twitter. You are twenty two

(42:21):
years old. I think do you ever remember in your
life being in a garage where you had to pull
a garage down with a rope involved? No, but I've
seen a lot of movies where you've had to the products.
I found that to be the case. So no, I
have that personally, but I know that that's how it

(42:41):
used to be. That's how that's how it used to be. Yeah,
in the old days. I'm there, but uh, yeah, I
have not. But maybe yeah, well, hold j mart, I
didn't ask you in the last segment, have you ever
had to uh and by the way, I should mention
we were going to talk with Barrett Sully. Barrett was
not able to join, so I've I've called in Bobby

(43:02):
Barack and uh Ryan glass Peagle to to finish out
the week with me. But have you have you I'm
sure j Mart you're around my age. I'm sure you
have been in a garage where you had to pull
it down with a rope. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean I
think about garages. I think about addicts sometimes as well.
Just something. I mean, ropes do exist to pull down
doors like these are things that happened. There was actually

(43:24):
a time when ropes were used in boy scouts like
you mentioned. I mean, I learned to tie not so
I could get some merit badges before I realized I
didn't want to be a boy scout, so I decided
to move on from it. But yeah, I absolutely remember
the old school to garage pulls. Alright, So, Bobby, how
would you if you were giving the media a letter grade,
so you write about the media a lotted out kick.

(43:45):
If you were giving the sports media a letter grade
for their coverage of the of the NASCAR alleged noose incident.
What letter grade would you give us? Uh? I would
go low the myn this because not only or they
irresponsible Monday and Tuesday morning by not asking questions, you've

(44:06):
got into conclusions, really pushing things further than they should
have been. Plus what was out there. But yesterday, the
first step was admitting you were wrong, and very few
media members even admitted they were wrong. They were making
excuses why they came down so hard. I saw a
lot of people say, well, I'm so glad this came
out because we all came together and came down a

(44:28):
NASCAR who deserved this. I mean what, it didn't make
a sense to me if you're if you're someone on Monday,
and there was a lot of including I think Jamal
Hill probably before front Willie crushed, NASCAR, crushed their fans,
crushed everybody calling for major changes. Did not come back
Tuesday afternoon when it was found by the FBI that

(44:48):
it was not a news There was a role that's
been there for a while. It was not a heinous
that did not even admit you were wrong to say, Okay,
I messed up to me. That's where you can get
a familing grade. So maybe if their coverage is like
a CE minus on Monday, they're they're irresponsibility of not
changing their perspective on Tuesday and defending themselves the past

(45:09):
two days. That's where I bring it down to a
well where if you go by college theaters, a D
and D minus is failing. That's right where the media
is right now. So NASCAR says they've looked into this.
Uh they they they are said, they said, they should
have said it was an alleged news. They put out
the picture everything else. Is this story over or do
you think it will continue to echo for Bubba Wallace,

(45:31):
for Nascar or come Monday? Is this basically done right?
Like we're talking about it on Friday because it's dominated
the entire week's news cycle. Everybody's got an opinion now
the pictures out there. Uh, everybody had an opinion when
the FBI investigated it and everything else. How would you
how would you assess this story? Like what kind of

(45:52):
legs if any doesn't have? Well, I mean, last night
it was a big thing about media people fighting about
to Will Kaine's credit brought on several of his colleagues
that disagree with his take and that really became a
discussion in and of itself. Who's right with the people
that said the media got it wrong and the people
that are stand buying their takes. I'd imagine the story

(46:12):
isn't dead dead yet, it doesn't have a lot of
legs now, just because we did find out that it
really wasn't anything at all, which is a good thing.
I don't think it's going to be a major story.
But as you know, Clay, there's not a lot of
sports going on right now, really none, I mean not
from a national level. What we talked about is a
couple of uh most golf going on here and there,
but not national topics. So if there is something to

(46:35):
talk about, I think we're going to continue to now
it just takes one person in the media to say
something up third everybody talking about their takes. I would
not be shocked if on Monday we're still talking about
the story. But maybe it's the third or four topic,
not number one like it's been all week. All right,
So other news that is out there, you, along with

(46:56):
other people at OutKick, have been writing about what they're
gonna do to replace this show's competition, which is right now.
I believe Mike Golic and Trey Wingo. Both of those
guys are now out. You guys have reported it's gonna
be Keyshawn Johnson and Max Kellerman. The New York Post
reported yesterday that Keishawn Johnson is in. Who do you

(47:19):
think ESPN is gonna end up with? Do you still
think it's gonna be Keyshawn Johnson and uh and Max Kellerman.
So we reported two weeks ago that ESPN was in
beat discussions with Keishan from Morning Radio in the first
choice for his co host was Max Kellerman. I've said
throughout the week here that talks of Keishan have advanced,

(47:39):
and I'm told as well that those aren't done now
he is locked in from Morning Radio. M Kellerman. Is
a really complicated situation. While there are people at ESPN
that still want him to do that show, I think
Keishawn wants him to do that, he still does do
first take and he has no interest of leaving first take.
So it's gonna be really hard to do Morning Radio
six to ten or six and nine and then go

(48:00):
right the first take on. There's some doubt now that
Keller that deals Kelevan is going to get done. So
that appears less likely as though there are still people
that want to get that done. But yes, Key Shows
is locked in from Morning Radio, so that is one
spot fill, but they still have several other shows that
they're trying to work out. Um. The report are earlier
this week. Mike Greenberg, he's real close to getting his

(48:23):
deal locked in for some show in the afternoon weathers
one to three year, twelve to two, somewhere in that range.
So the ESPN radio picture is starting to clear up.
But there's still some questions about how they replaced Will Kine,
who was last show is today, because that three to
six spot is still wide open. Um, I could see
might go Junior possibly sliding in there with the co host.

(48:46):
There's still a lot of moving parts, and as we
talked about a couple of weeks ago, collect there's not
a lot of options. There are a few people on
that roster right now. They're just waiting that can do
radio at a high level. They're likely going to have
to develop people and that doesn't go terribly wrong because
there just is not somebody waiting right now to say, Okay,
I can replace well or I'm going to enhance morning radio. Um.

(49:08):
But it's not Calorman. I don't see who else are
going to be capable of making that show better than
what it is currently right now with Trey Wingle and
Mike Golik. Hate to bragg or draw attention to myself,
but this will be the third change they've made since
we started. They have like twenty years of normalcy, then
Mike and Mike broke up about a year after we started,

(49:30):
and then now my Golik is out. Um, And so
the entire show is going to be different. And obviously
we've been growing a lot, that show has not grown,
So I'm kind of curious who they'll put in there. Uh,
not that it's going to really change very much about
about what we do. Um. Last question for you, and
I appreciate you coming on with us. Uh, do you
buy in? You had an article up yesterday. I guess

(49:50):
it was Wednesday on out Kick or maybe it's Tuesday.
I can't even remember all the days I've run together
about George RR. Martin potentially for the Game of Thrones.
Fans out there who read the books about him teasing
the sixth volume, I think right of his books. Do
you buy in that it's going to be back By
the way, George R. Martin huge New York Jets fan,
which I would have never anticipated because I think of

(50:12):
him as kind of this British guy based on the
way the books have been written. But he's a huge
NFL guy. Because I'm so happy you have Jason Martin
back during the studio, because I spoke to him the
morning after Game of Thrones ended last year and what
he told me stuck in my head. He goes Bobby,
the showrunners that he often white. They kind of figure

(50:33):
out how to end the story, and the guy that
created it he can. I still agree with ja Mark.
I don't think George R. Martin has any idea how
to finish this story, and there's no reason to believe
that he's going to have this books finished next year.
Like you said, you lost too, he's just saying date now.
For a decade. It's been a decade since his last book.
He still has another one that's probably going to be
even longer in the works, the final one. I don't

(50:56):
think we're ever going to get that. So as much
as I love that book to come out prere pre
order and have it read as fast as you were
able to read this, I just don't get happening. And
part of me, I said this the other day, I
don't know if I wanted out, because if it comes out,
it's going to be great. I'm going to be all
in back in the characters, immersed in the West Gost.

(51:16):
Then I'm going to have to wait probably another decade
or fifteen years for the final book, which I've already
said I don't expect we're ever going to get good stuff.
As always, go read Bobby Barak at out Kick OutKick
dot com. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk
lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at
Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart

(51:37):
Radio app search f s R to listen live.