Clay Travis is joined by Missouri Senator Josh Hawley, who recently made waves for sharing the profane email he received from ESPN NBA insider Adrian Wojanrowski in response to his questioning of the NBA's agenda with their list of approved social justice messages. Senator Hawley opens up about how he got his start in politics and the problem he sees with sports becoming more and more political right before our eyes.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Walcome in wins and lost his podcast without kick. Appreciate
all of you hanging out with us. We've got a
special Saturday edition of the podcast today for a lot
of you. There was a a wild story on Friday
which illuminated many of the hypocrisies that currently exist in
the sporting universe, particularly with the n B, A and
ESPN and what I would call the woke center universe
(00:23):
of the far left wing sports that is trying to
take over all of the discussion and a lot of
that centator around Missouri Senator Josh Holly, who completely called uh,
the NBA and ESPN on their hypocrisies and he's joining
us now. Senator. First of all, UH, bravo, because Jason
(00:44):
Witlock and myself have been talking about a lot of
the issues that you brought to a head in a
way UH that that that frankly outside of the media
I have not seen. So we'll get into a lot
of that, But first I just want to say thanks
for actually taking the step and illuminate aiding what is
to me a glaring and transparent is example of hypocrisy
(01:05):
in the world of sports. No, we'll you bet, and
thanks for having me thanks for all of the great
work and coverage that you're providing. An out kick. All right,
so let's dive in. I like to start off by
kind of letting people figure out the background of who
we're talking to. And we're gonna get into the China
and the NBA debacle, which I know you've been a
part of, and I believe you were in Hong Kong
(01:27):
viewing the protest for yourself back in October of last year.
And for people out there who are like, well, we'll
get into that, but this is something that you have
been talking about. This something that I've been talking about
for a long time, even before uh, the NBA got involved.
We're gonna get to China and the United States relationship
in a second, But first of all, your background. I'm
kind of fascinated by this. You went to, if I'm
(01:48):
not mistaken, Stanford undergrad and then to Yale Law and
you went to Stanford coming out of a school in
Kansas City. But after having grown up in Missouri, was
it a culture shock for you to travel from Missouri
all the way out to Palo Alto to Stanford. And
the reason why I asked is I grew up in
Nashville and then went away to college in Washington, d C.
(02:09):
And even growing up in Nashville, I just wasn't prepared
for what the East Coast would be like. I'm curious
if the West Coast was an initial culture shock for
you and what you thought about Stanford while you were
out there. Yeah, no, it was the culture shock for sure. Uh.
I grew up in a in the town of uh,
not quite five thousand people in rural Missouri, at which
I'm really proud of. I mean, I'm a small town
(02:30):
boy and my wife and I in Missouri. I live
and now in a small town Ozark, Missouri there, so uh,
you know, proud of that background. And went to Katholic
high school as you say, and that casey, I grew
up at this way. I grew up reading Whitlock because
he was at the Star when I was in high school. Yes,
(02:50):
I don't know if that makes me younger him over
or maybe both, but ye came that later anyhow, But yeah,
that's my background. Also grew up playing sports. Sports were
an important part of my life, and as there are
for a lot of a lot of kids everywhere, but
especially small town kids. So I started playing baseball when
I was five, and then football was the big one.
Though my dad actually played football at a little college
(03:12):
of Kansas, and so I I grew up hearing stories
about that. So I started playing peewee football with the
pad and all when I would believe it was eight
seven or eight was the first time I could do it,
and I played all through high school. And I wanted
to play in college, you know, is one that was
like a lot of guys I call, man, I'm going
to play in college. And it wasn't good enough to
do that. But I had a good college experience. But
(03:33):
yet to your to your point, it was it was
certainly a different culture. And uh, you know, I'm glad
for my years at Stanford and Yale. And I often
say these days, I'm pretty critical of people who, uh
the elites as I as I say, who go to
schools like that. And people sometimes say to me, well,
how why did you say that, I mean, you went there,
And my answer is, yeah, I did, And so I
(03:54):
know exactly what they think. I mean, don't tell me
that these people don't look down many of them on
folks who have the kind of background that you and
I have, and folks who worked for a living. I mean,
I know what they think because I went there. I've
heard it all and I've seen it, and uh, you
know it was it was good for me to clarify
my own beliefs during those times, to clarify what I
(04:15):
thought I'd kind of been put through the tests, because
I can tell you when you're a when you're a
Midwestern conservative going to those schools, you do not get
a free pass. I mean, as as you know, and
you've got to learn to defend yourself. And so that
was all good. So you talk about growing up a
fan of sports and playing sports. What were your teams?
Were you a big Missouri fan? Were you a college
(04:36):
football fan? Were you a sometimes a fractious relationship I
know between the Royals and UH and Cardinal fans. What
what teams did you grow up die hard rooting for
the most when you were a kid. Well, Chiefs for sure,
you know, Selexington, Missouri, which is my hometown about an
hour east of Kansas City, right on the Missouri River.
And so we were in the Kansas City media market.
(04:59):
So te you know, I mean absolutely in fact that
this this this whole experience. The last couple of seasons,
Patrick Mahomes coming to us, and of course the Super
Bowl was you know, for for me, for a kid
who grew up the Chiefs fan, which was just truly
dream come true because I can remember vividly the Montana years.
That's the beginning of my high school experience, and I
can remember, I know right where I was when the Chiefs.
(05:22):
I could still was sitting in a sitting in a
booth at a little local diner and Lexington watching the
game when when the Montana and the Chiefs lost in
the a f C Championship, So I remember that vividly.
So getting back and then winning that and getting onto
the Super Bowl. Winning that has been like you know,
kind of it's kind of bringing a full circle and
and maybe working out some karma there. So anyhow, that's
(05:44):
been awesome. But Chiefs for sure Royals because we're on
the west side of the state. So I've since then,
you know, sort of made my piece of the Cardinals.
I love the Cards. I cheer for him, but I'll
just be honest. I've said this the Cards fans like,
if if you know Royals are playing the Cars, I'm
gonna cheer for the Royals. So I grew up a
big Royals fan, grew up going to the games, old
(06:04):
enough that I can remember seeing George Brett play, and
going to those games was a big childhood. You had
to be a big back in the day to Jackson,
Yeah I did. I got to Saint Jackson was there
when I was a little kid, and uh oh yeah,
I mean he was just you know that he was
obviously a superstar and uh an idol of mine. I
(06:27):
mean growing up you know that the playing uh on
the other coast as he did for football, as you know,
too bad he couldn't play in Kansas City, but no,
he was amazing. So where were you for the Super Bowl?
Did you watch it at home with friends? Fans? Yeah?
So how nervous do you get? So I'm a Titans fan,
(06:47):
so full disclosure. So you ruined my boy's fall, uh
with and also their dad. But we made an unexpected
run to the a f C Championship game. Obviously. But
I find Patrick Mahomes to be, you know, sort of
like Steph Curry and that it's almost impossible to dislike him.
He seems to play with such an effervescent personality and
obviously he's an incredible talent, But as a long suffering
(07:11):
I think it's probably fair to say Kansas City Chiefs fan.
Because you're around my age, so you have seen a
lot of losses over the years in the playoffs and
everything else. He has to feel like just an unbelievable
gift from the sporting gods, right, totally, Oh totally. And
now I've got two little boys of my own, my
older boys seven and my younger boy is five, and
(07:31):
so to be able to watch the games with them
and to have them they're just old enough this year
when we watched them last year together in the season
before this past one, and when they were six and four,
but to have him be able to watch the games
and kind of get into it a little bit more
this year, that there's something I think, you know, as
a father, there's something special about that, especially if the
(07:52):
game has meant something, the team has meant something to you,
or for me really, to be honest, it kind of
brought back memories. My dad was my coach when I
was playing pee wee football, little league football up until
I went to high school. So there was just something
about sharing that with my own boys that brought that
memories of of of my childhood with my dad coaching me,
and that there's just you know, if that's an awesome thing.
(08:13):
So that took to be honest, that was the best
part about watching the game. And my kids helped keep
me calm because they, you know, they understood that we
were down, and you know, they could tell but you know,
they're sending five and they were like, oh, we're gonna win, Daddy,
We're gonna win, you know, And Daddy was like, man,
I'm sweating it by the end of the in the third.
But anyhow, it was. It was good and of course
they get My younger boy can still rattle off the
(08:35):
score and he'd tell you what the other day he
said to his mom, Well, at halftime, Mama, score was
this and that and we were down. And I was like, man,
that stayed with them. Uh so pretty cool. Now, I
I what I have found. I've got three boys, twelve,
nine and five, and what I have found is so
amazing about it is it takes you back because everybody
can kind of get jaded as you get older about sports.
(08:57):
You learned some of the less egg zilarating parts, let's say,
of of the sporting universe and what a business it is,
but going back and being able to see it through
your kid's eyes kind of takes you back in time
and reminds you of what it was like to be seven, eight,
nine years old yourself when you were a fan. It's
it's one of the coolest things I think about about
(09:17):
being a dad, certainly as it relates to sports. Now,
I'm fascinated by something else in your background. You were
you clerked after you graduated from Yale Law School, and
you ended up on the Supreme Court clerking for John Roberts.
I believe you met your wife there. But I've always
been fascinated as a guy who went to Vanderbilt Law school.
I never did any of the clerk experience, but one
(09:39):
of my classmates was a Supreme Court clerk, and it's
just such an august, incredible, unique accomplishment. What was that
like for you to be a clerk on the Supreme
Court and what was that experience like? Well, I did
indeed beat my wife there, as you said, so it
worked out great for me. I'm not sure that her
family still thinks it was a great year for her,
(10:01):
but but it was a great year for me. And
we're coming up on the ten years of Mary's defty
this month, Um, but now you know click clearing of
the court. I mean, the thing about getting to work
at the Supreme Court is that you get to see
so many cases. First of all, because the court gets
about ten thousand requests a year to hear cases, and
(10:21):
that's how many requests come in from the lower courts.
And they only hear this year they only heard fifty some.
My year they heard about seventy cases. So a fraction, small,
small fraction of the cases they get requests for do
they actually hear Grant searches. The is a formal term
for that. So you just see so many cases and
(10:43):
you get to learn so much about different parts of
the law. And you get to see great lawyers too.
I mean, you know the arguments. I went to every
argument that we had at the court that year, Um,
and you know, it's it's just fascinating. You learn so much,
and I've got tremendous respect for the courts of the Institution.
I tell you, I'm not very happy with this year.
(11:03):
That's a different subject, but you know, I've I learned
a lot and it made a big difference to me.
That's the kind of law I went on to practice them.
I became a constitutional lawyer. My my wife as well,
like my wife's still practices, and uh, that's really my
my experience of the court really a shape chap. So
did you so a couple of things that I think
are interesting in the background of the court. Did you
(11:25):
play in the highest court in the land and the
basketball gym that was there? Was there a league? Was
there any kind of regular basketball game that would take
place there? I did play up there, and in fact
the year that I was there, Uh, the Jayhawks from
neighboring Kansas that won the de Nasial v Civil In
National Championship Innitcial Basketball Championship, which was you know, a
(11:48):
little a little hard to take being a being Missouri boy.
But they came to the reason I mentioned is the
Chief Justice, who is also a big sports fan. The
Chief Justice invited them to come to the super in
Court when they made their DC trip and they got
invited the White House, the chiefs ass said, well, why
don't come to the Supreme Court. And then he had
the truly master stroke idea. He said, let's invite him
(12:09):
to do a scrimmage. You shoot around at the highest
court in the land, which they did. So it was
kind of awesome, even though it was you know, Kansas,
it was kind of awesome to see those guys up
at the highest court in the land, up there shooting
around and and you know, we got to go out
there with them, and then we had them for lunch
all that stuff. But yeah, the Clerks would get together
(12:30):
and play from time to time. I'll be honest with
the basketball is is not my sport, but it's you know,
it's it's it's awesome to be up there and to
be able to to think about, you know, this is
a court that and not only have the Justice has
played on over the years, Michael Jordan has played on
that court. Clarence Thomas was friends with Jordan I think
still is and invited him to come and so he
(12:51):
shot around on that court, and you know, so that's
pretty cool. Another thing about it is, I don't know
if you've seen a clip that this ceiling in that court,
because it wasn't designed to be a basketball court. It's
right above the main courtroom. The feeling is well up there. Yeah,
you basically can't shoot a three pointer, I mean not
with any any kind of ark at all. So it's
a low ceiling, and then the other thing is being
(13:13):
above the main courtroom. There's these stories from back in
the eighties when the court would be in session hearing
oral arguments, and a couple of clerks who were supposed
to be in their seats in the courtroom listening, decided,
you know what a good opportunity for us, maybe just
shoot a few baskets and they go up and do
and they could hear the basketball bouncing in the courtroom.
(13:35):
So since been during oral arguments they literally rope off
the court just in case, you know, somebody should want
to wander out there. So it's pretty fun. How many
of the justices are legitimate sports fans? Would you say?
Because I always think that's interesting. Everybody obviously has serious
things in their life, and for most people, sports are
(13:56):
an escape from that serious part of their life. John Roberts,
it sounds like some atty good sports fan. Were there
other justices that you heard talking about sports and some
guys can fake it right or girls you know, like
you know that they're not really fans. Did that Was
there like a legitimate sports relationship at all that you
picked up on when you were Clark Gage Justice Thomas
(14:16):
is a big sports fan in my observation, love sports. Um,
you know follows sports. And uh, I said, you know,
friends with athletes. I mean that. So Justice Thomas for sure,
and you have the Chief Justice is both himself you know,
played played high school football rather and that was kind
of a formative experience for him. Uh and uh, you
(14:36):
know continues he was or used to be at least
a golfer and continues to do that and follows that
very very closely. Uh So, now the courts changed pretty
fair amounts since I've I've been there. I don't know
a lot of the new justices, but it seems like
Kavanaugh is a pretty big, pretty big fan. And I
hear that and he he of course wasn't wasn't there
when I was there, But yeah, are the ones who
(14:59):
were there when I would around, I would say, probably,
uh yeah, Justice Thomas and the Chief Justice where the
two biggest sportsens that I knew. Maybe others were, but
I didn't. I didn't hear him talk about it, but
I heard the Chief and I heard Justice Thomas talk
about him to regular face. It was not uncommon for
the Chief Justice to say to us as a group
of clerks are here. He'd say, hey, did you see
(15:20):
the game last night? Can you believe you know, can
you believe they missed that vehicle? Did you see the putt?
That tigers? Tigers still playing? I guess he's playing again now.
But he was at his height then, you know, did
you see that? Probably the tiger? That kind of thing
that was pretty common. And of course we would always
complain him like, well we didn't get see any of that, chief,
because you had stuff working that we were hony day
(15:41):
when you were a clerk, like what was your typical
day it was? You know, it's it's clerks make it
sound worse than it is. It's for one thing, it's
only a year, you know, and you can a do
anything for a year. Indeed, such it's such a great
experience that you want to soak up all of it,
you know. I mean, you'd be an idiot to say, oh,
you know, I gotta have two weeks a vacation, which
(16:01):
probably we did not yet, but you know that you'd
be stupid to do that over that experience. But you know,
there were some long days and then there were some
more normal days. The justices and again this more than
ten years ago and now I'm dating myself, but the
justices are pretty hard workers, um, and you know they would,
uh we were, certainly and then put you this way
(16:22):
any time to teach justices and chambers. We were expected
to be there. I mean, there was no doubt about that.
Like you know, if he was in and his routine
was back then he'd dropped off his young son, UM,
who's now all grown up, and he dropped him off
in the morning at school and come into the court
and work all day and he'd work on the way home.
And we need to be available, so and you know
(16:43):
we work weekends, um when we needed to, which was
a good a good person of the time, but it
was it was such a great experience that you know,
it's one that that I was for everybody who who
loves the law and its interested in the law. And
like I said, it made a huge difference for me
starting not like if I could be you and you
could be me for just what hour, if you could
(17:05):
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the United States Forest Service and the ad Council. All right, well,
I'll skip ahead. You you are now a senator from Missouri.
We're talking with Josh Holley, and uh, you obviously are
(18:39):
very accomplished, um in what you've done since then, and
getting on the Supreme Court as a clerk is a
is a heck of accomplishment for I know many people
who are listening who are at least familiar with the
legal field in any way. So is going to Stanford
and getting into Yale law school. Um. But what we
are focused on here, and I just kind of wanted
to get people a background. I was fascinated by it myself.
(19:00):
Is uh. I believe and I think you probably agree
with me. And you're we're around the same age, born
in the same year. We kind of grew up, you
and I did on the tail end of the Cold
War with the United States and Russia. And I believe
that we are in what should be classified in some
way as a Cold War with China right now, and
(19:21):
that China is taking advantage of some of the difficulties
going on right now around the globe, which frankly, they
caused the coronavirus to continue to take more and more
of the rights away from people in the vicinity of
China who have had them, whether that be Hong Kong,
which is going on right now and we're gonna get into,
or certainly I think they would like to to reclaim Taiwan.
(19:43):
I think that's certainly one of their goals the South China.
See the aggressive moves that they're making there to try
to control more of the area around China. Would you
agree with me that the United States probably the biggest
threat that we face right now is China on a
variety of different fronts, and that it feels a little
bit at least like to me, very Russia, like in
(20:05):
the Cold War from when I was a kid and
what was America was going through at the time. I mean,
I just don't think there's any doubt that China is
our biggest national security threat, probably our biggest economic threat
of this century, and it's gonna be like this for
the rest of our lifetimes. I don't have any doubt.
By the way, who is going to emerge from this
(20:28):
as number one. It's gonna be us. But we've you know,
we've got some work to do. And this is you know,
this is life, right, I mean, this is this is
part of it. You're going to have people who don't
like America, who want to knock America off its pedestal.
China has been trying to steal our jobs with some success,
too much success, and steal our our technology, steal our property.
(20:51):
They've been doing all of that for decades now, and
I think frankly that the d C establishment has been
asleep at the wheel on this for way too long.
But we we've got some work here to do to
stop what China is trying to do, what they're trying
to take from us, stop them from from inserting themselves.
They want to be a global notice, a global power, Clay.
They really want to be the global power. And they
(21:13):
see that differently than we do. You know. They see
that is they want to control I mean, them being
in charge, is them controlling the world and controlling us,
and we can't let that happen. Okay. So this grew
the the intersection of sports and China. Some people who
have not followed this case closely but are listening to
us now. Back in October, the the NBA, which has
(21:37):
had a very deep relationship with China as they've expanded
their brand around the world. Uh, the NBA was on
sort of a Goodwill tour around Asia and the Houston
Rocket GM. Darryl Moray tweeted Free Hong Kong as a
part of the Hong Kong protests, and all hell basically
broke loose in terms of the NBA's relationship with China.
(22:01):
And before I get into the specifics of that, you
actually traveled over to China to witness the Hong Kong
protest for yourself, I understand, back in October of last year. Uh,
and we've certainly seen this relationship devolved. I mean, in fact,
all of the protesters and what they were protesting for
(22:22):
has been proven to be a true maybe even studying
to me, maybe to you as well, how quickly China
has moved to curtail those basic human rights and freedoms
in Hong Kong. But what did you see on your
trip in October as these protests were going on. Yeah,
I needed to go and and see it for myself.
That's the reason I went. I just we I had
(22:44):
talked to the protesters, uh from Afar, you know, from
from here in the States. But I just I just
decided that, you know what, I've got to see this.
So I went to Hong Kong to say, and and
I did. I didn't want to stay cooped up in
an hotel some somewhere. We got out on the streets,
much to the consternation of of I think some of
the diplomatic corps, But there you go. Um, So we
(23:05):
went out and and we're out on the streets to
the protesters in several different locations. And you know, I
saw saw what was going on. It was the real deal.
Um and uh. I will just say that, you know,
seeing up close and personal what the authoritarian resume Invaizing
was willing to do and we're doing to their own people,
(23:27):
not allowing them to assemble. You know, we think for
granted a lot of our rights United States. In the
United States, will we allow folks to assemble and protests peacefully?
Even a lot of times about a permit. I mean,
you know, technically in most places you're supposed to get
a permit, but you know here in the US, a
lot of times like hey, it's you know, if it's peaceful,
we'd let to do it. There in Hong Kong, and
this is back in October, you couldn't even get a permit.
(23:47):
I mean, these protesters were asking, would you please give
us a permit which they were entitled to under law. Nope.
Then they were clubbing them down, they were spraying them down,
they were arresting teenagers, throwing them into prison, be eating
them viciously. And I saw it. I saw all this
on on the streets, and so it just to me
it was such a vivid example of the way Beijing
(24:10):
does business, you know, and what they have done to
us for years in taking our jobs, in stealing our
property and trying to build their military on the backs
of our middle class. That's has been their modus operending
for decades now. You could you could see that same
spirit out on the street to Hong Kong. If they
beat their own people in Hong Kong. Let's not forget
(24:32):
they're Chinese. Take They're out there beating their own people,
arresting them, spraying then macing them, you know, threatening them,
shooting them in some instances, um you know, with note
the protesters have no weapons, that their their thug police
had weapons, shooting them openly, and it's just crazy stuff.
(24:52):
And that just shows you, I think, what Beijing's mentality is.
And so Darryl Morey, the Houston Rockets GM says free
Hong Kong and the NBA ultimately has their exhibition games.
There's all this controversy. Uh. To me, the NBA players,
the coaches, Adam Silver, they bent the knee. Uh. And
(25:13):
then to use the Lebron James phrase that that he
likes to claim that they will never do. Lebron shut
up and dribbled and uh and and bowed down to
his Chinese overlords. We saw the same thing happen with
Steve Kerr and Greg Popovich, two coaches who are quick
to rip everything Donald Trump says. But when Steve Kerr
(25:35):
was specifically asked about that situation, he said, you know,
do you say? He was asked, do you support protests
in Hong Kong? He said, well, that's a complex situation.
He still hasn't said anything. And now the protest have
clearly been proven to be Uh. These guys knew what
was going on because China has swept in. They passed
(25:57):
new rules. You can go to jail for years if
you protest. They are literally pulling books out of libraries
in Hong Kong that have to do with the with
with democracy there. And so this is this is for
Americans who really haven't been paying a lot of attention
to this. This is Orwellian what China is doing. They
(26:19):
are taking over in Hong Kong, and it is a
horrible sign of what might be to come. And frankly,
I think the United States has been asleep at the
wheel and has not been aggressive enough in condemning what's
going on in Hong Kong. Yeah, you're I mean, you're
absolutely right about what's going on there. I mean it's
a democracy is over now in Hong Kong. I mean
(26:40):
that's just the sad, the sad but stark truth. The
Beijing has passed they call it a law. By the
way to Clay, I always always the fall when I
say that, because you know there is no legislature in Beijing,
they don't elect anybody. It's all fake and so beazing.
You said, we're passing a national security law. Well it's
not a law, and eat handed down on high from
(27:01):
the Chinese Communist Party, a bunch of unelected thugs. But
they've they've put it into operation in Hong Kong and
it being now no more, no more protests, no more assembly,
no more free speech, no more right to worship, none
of that stuff, yanking all of it and you've seen
it already. What they've done is that they put that
new law into effect, that edict. They swept up protesters.
(27:22):
You can't now, some protesters out in Hong Kong have
have tried to hold up just blank signs, Claire. They
don't say anything. There's no message on them that could
be that could be uh in any way destabilizing, whatever
that might mean. And these protesters are getting arrested for
holding up blank signs. I mean, it's just there's no
rule of law that this is just. It is pure
(27:42):
authoritarianism now. And that is again it shows you what
Beijing hopes frankly for the world, but certainly for any
area that is under their control. And they want to
just raise Hong Kong to the ground essentially in terms
of its freedoms, and then they want to turn their side.
You mentioned Taiwan earlier. They want to do that to Taiwan.
(28:03):
And the reason we care is number one. Of course,
we care about the fate of free people anywhere. I mean,
we are we're a free nation. I still believe in
the free world. I mean I believe in that thing
called the free world. We're a free people in America,
and so you know, we we our hearts are with
free people everywhere, number one, but number two, we care
about our own security. And the truth is a China
(28:25):
that is so emboldened that they will break all of
their treaty commitments because they have them in Hong Kong.
They'll break them in order to put that city on
the ground, and then we'll try to take over Taiwan,
and then we'll try to expend their dominance all over
the world. That is painderous, to put it mildly, to
the United States of America. They're nothing more threatening to
(28:45):
our jobs are our security than this kind of imperialism
in China. And that's what we're up against. And one
of the things that you can talk about for the
purposes of sports is this idea that sports can help
to raise awareness and consciousness of what might be going on,
and that rather than bow down to the Chinese overlords,
(29:06):
as the NBA has done and basically put Darryl Moray
and witness protection ever since he said free Hong Kong. Uh.
And so the NBA has made the decision, Okay, we're
gonna make uh statements on our jerseys. And this is
where your connection to the n b A and ESPN
(29:26):
and Disney came in. We're recording this on a Saturday. Yesterday,
on a Friday, you released a letter which asked a commissioner,
Adam Silver, why the NBA was allowing certain statements to
be made on a jersey, but for instance, they wouldn't
allow anybody to put free Hong Kong on their jerseys
(29:46):
or support the Chinese people who are consuming the NBA content. Uh,
and we'll see these games in theory, the n b
A is doing, what I think you would agree with me,
is sort of a fake woken us. Right. They will
rip American institutions, and they will rip American values which
will then be used as Chinese propaganda. Right because all
(30:09):
these Chinese communists are going to be showing the NBA
in their country and they're gonna say, see, look, everything
is not great in America. Look at all the things
in ways that they're being mistreated. And this could be
if the NBA wants to get political with their jerseys,
why are they being hypocritical bowing down to China and
their communist leadership while ripping the United States. And you
(30:32):
raised this issue with Adam Silver, and all hell broke
loose again there as well, But what was the intent
of your letter to the NBA. The NBA makes a
tremendous amount of money in China, I mean just a
tremendous amount of money. And then this is where this
is where I think the NBA has some obligations, right,
(30:53):
I mean even before they started this stuff about putting
social justice caused statements on the back of the uniforms
just recently, and their relationship with China is now pretty
long standing. And when you're making that much money in
that kind of a place, doing deals with that sort
of a government, which is what the NBA corporate is doing,
then I think when you've got a situation month we've
(31:13):
had in Hong Kong, or like you've got with the Weakers,
who are a religious minority who are literally in concentracing
camps in China, in constant tracing camps, now I think
you've got some responsibility to say something about that, at
least say that, oh my gosh, we don't agree with
with that. But you know, I mean, the NBA's what's
their latest contract just that this past year worth over
(31:35):
one point five billion dollars. I mean, it's just unbelievable,
the amount of money you mentioned, the you know, sort
of woke stance at the NBA's take, and it's corporate.
It's classic corporate wokeness. You know. It's nothing that would
interfere with profits for having sake. I mean, let you know, profits,
Oh my gosh, we're gonna get those, and nothing that
would interfere with our our multinational plan to scoop up
(31:57):
money and all of these different markets for so many
American corporations. If that means selling out the American worker,
sending jobs overseas, oh by golly, we'll do that in
the heartbeat. But don't you know. Ah, but but we're woke.
You know, don't get mad at us because we're wok.
It's really a huge distraction to try and move attention
away from what they're really doing, what these huge corporations
are really doing. And the NBA is right there in
(32:19):
terms of the money they are making it China and
the kind of deal that they have made with the
Chinese government. And uh, you know, I think it is
not too much to ask him, which is my point
to Silver in my letter, what, first of all, what
is the deal with China? Why aren't you saying anything,
as you make all this money as an organization, and
(32:39):
at the very least, if you're gonna put statements on
the back of jerseys, why wouldn't you allow a player
to wear a free Hong Kong statement on the back?
I mean, for that matter, why not to support our troops,
you know, I mean, what's wrong with that too? But
just on the China thing, why not free Hong Kong?
Why not free to weaker's that's that that's the religious
minority that's in concentration camps. Because you're right, the people
(33:00):
of China would see that. That would send a message. Uh,
it would, I think, frankly show that the NBA is
willing to stand up a little bit. But you know,
oh no, we can't. We can't have any of that.
You saw the reaction. Also, Adam Silver said that they
had mutual respect the NBA did for China. You just
(33:20):
mentioned the concentration camps, the cracking down on all Hong
Kong democracy, the fact that over a billion Chinese people
don't have basic human rights. It should be insulting to
all Americans that Adam Silver said in any way that
the NBA has mutual respect for what China stands for,
shouldn't it. Yeah, that's just about money. I mean, it's
(33:43):
just sure, it's mutual respect for making money for NBA corporate.
I mean, that's that's what it's about. Again, as it
is for so many of these multinational corporations. I can
tell you that the Chinese government, they doesn't have any
respect for anybody in America. And you look at the
kind of respect they showed us when Daryl Morey, to
(34:04):
your point, Clay, when he had the audacity just to retweet,
as I recall, Moray didn't actually himself say anything, He
just retweeted a a one little line about Hong Kong.
And look how the Beijing government came down on this
American citizen by demanding he'd be fired, by threatening to
pull all the Rockets games from television, then I treatening
(34:26):
to pull all of the NBA games from all of
the Chinese platforms. I mean that's not respect. That is contempt.
That is an attempt to control and to to to
subjugate us, just like they want to subjugate their own people.
And for the NBA to to not only turn a
blind eye, but actually to cooperate, I mean to go
(34:46):
along with the cow towing by saying, oh more and
this spoke you know he wasn't speaking for the league. Uh,
and then silve all of Silver's other statements. You know
that was a Silver said that this is a bump
in the road. They're that little incident with more and
Hong Kong, and that you know they're working on repairing
the NBA's relationship with China, repairing it and what they
(35:06):
should be doing the Saint to Beijing. Listen, we're proud
to be Americans. And if you try to tell us
what to think, or what to say, or what to do,
we're gonna tell you we're a step off. Look for
your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest.
It's a storybook world for them. You look and see
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with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles,
(35:31):
They see a windy path that could lead to adventure,
and they see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world?
Find a forest near you and start exploring and discover
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(35:52):
Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds
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(36:12):
you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.
Look to your children's eyes to see the true magic
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look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face
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(36:33):
could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide.
Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and
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We're talking to Missouri Senator Josh Halley. This is the
Winds and Losses podcast. Clay Travis here. All right, So
(36:53):
you write that letter, which, by the way, I thought
was fantastically well done. I retweeted it when I saw
go out and you also, and this is pretty commonplace.
It's a big story the way that the NBA's relationship
with China is going. And so when you write a
letter like this, it's not uncommon that media members would
(37:15):
get added to a letter like this via email. So
you can make them aware because they cover the league,
because they are that they should be aware of the
relationship between the NBA and politicians, given that the NBA
is going to be a social justice warrior organization at
least for this restart of the season in Orlando and
(37:37):
all the changes with the jersey and the statements on
the court and everything else. You send it out to
a variety of NBA media And how soon after that
email goes out does Adrian Wojnarowski. And I'll say it.
You may not want to curse, but he uh, he
writes back, uh, fuck you. That's the entire message from
(37:57):
his ESPN corporate email account. Back to your office for
having the gall to ask the n b A about
its response to to to China. How quickly does that happen?
And who on your staff was like, Oh my god,
is this real? I mean it kind of take me
into how that process played out. You know, we we
got that back from him. I mean, let me just look,
(38:21):
I can look right here within um oh to two minutes, Clay,
we sent it out at eight fifty five. I've got
this in front of me. We sent out the press
release about our letter to press at eight fifty five,
and at eight fifty seven blows rights back from his
iPhone because this tag sent from my iPhone, so he
gets that sit directly to him. Two minutes later, he
(38:43):
writes back, fuck you to a United States Senator in
Missouri from his esp In corporate email account. And did
you think it would be in pranked? Like when one
of your staff members was like, hey, wait a minute, uh,
you know, can you believe what Adrian Morgenarowski just wrote back? Well,
I have to say I did. I sort of looked
at it and listen, we get you know, we get responses.
(39:03):
No don members of the breast, but we you know,
we people troll us all the time, and you know
that's welcome to me to welcome to the internet. Yeah,
there's a lot of there's a lot of ridiculous in
this out there. So yeah, so but from a media member,
have you ever seen anything like that to have that
happen now quickly and have that response, and now I've
never seen that response from a from a media member before,
(39:25):
and it took you know, I was like, well, this
is My first thought was, what's the deal here? But
you know, no, I mean it's the ESPN dot com.
And then my my other thought was is that, well,
he's just saying what ESPN thanks. I'm frankly not surprised.
My my expectations could be perfectly honest with you, is
(39:47):
that ESPN would completely ignore because they don't want to
cover at all. Yeah. Absolutely, that's what they did back
in October. I mean, they crudgingly with the Hong Kong
blow up in the NBA back in October, grudgingly, as
memory serves, finally got around the covering a kind of
but you know, it's like, let's let's let's move on
as quick as possible because Clay, the ESPN, Disney the
(40:10):
parent company, you know, they they benefit to financially from
the the NBA's rate of relationship, which China. I mean,
let's you know, let's be honest here. So and I'm
sure in terms of you know, their their own staff
members views, employees views, uh, you know, it's not woke
center for nothing. So I was surprised by that response,
(40:31):
but I thought, you know, this is this is becoming
all two typical of what the media. They don't They
won't report the news, they won't actually ask the tough questions.
I mean, why why is the Rick question here is?
Why is an ESPN asking these questions of the NBA.
I mean, why aren't they going and saying, hey, hold
on this a second. Are you not gonna say anything
(40:52):
about what's going on in this country where you make
literally billions of dollars nothing? Why take pressing that? That's
the real issip. Yeah, and let's let's go in here
for a second to uh to the law. Because both
of us are lawyers. You know this better than I do,
because you are a freaking Supreme Court clerk. But there's
a difference between providing complete First Amendment freedoms to your
(41:15):
players to make whatever political statement they want to make
on their jerseys and discriminating on content, right, because what
the NBA is basically doing is a form of propaganda.
They are saying, hey, we're okay with you making political
statements so long as we agree with those political statements. Right. So,
(41:35):
in other words, it's not a content neutral policy when
it comes to their jersey. They are selecting the the
the the opinions that the players are allowed to advertise
on their jersey. And it's a very ripe moment of
hypocrisy here that you can point and say, oh, you're
fine ripping the United States and other institutions and taking
(41:59):
particular or sides here where there's zero risk because of
all the freedoms we have, but you won't stand up
for the basic human rights of others around the world
that you are taking billions of dollars for. This is
the very essence of what the job of sports media
should be, right to speak truth to power. Instead, you
(42:20):
raise all these issues and ESPN's top NBA reporter, his
first response is to say, not, oh, these are interesting
issues that should be explored. It's to say fuck you
to a sitting United States senator. You know it's you're
you're right about all of that claim you're and you're
write about it. Think it's such an important point that
(42:41):
this is corporate approved speech on the back of these jerseys.
My understanding is the NBA can correct me if I'm wrong,
But my understanding is that it's not like the players
can just go out and say, oh, this is what
I want to We're gonna do the cause statements. Here's
what I want to. Mind, Uh, the NBA has to
approve it. So that's they selected, you know handful right
(43:02):
that these that these statements here the approved statements. And yeah,
there's nothing in there about Hong Kong, about China, about
the concentration camps, none of that. Nor by the way,
is there anything in there like support our troops or
back the Blue or anything, or America or God bless America.
You know, we couldn't have that for having's sake. So this,
(43:25):
this is this is the NBA corporate saying that here's
the kind of speech that you could have and that yeah,
it just so happens to be speech that is great
for their bottom line. Imagine that. So also, again, I
want to circle back around to what I think is
the most stunning part about this is this is ESPN
really by and large as a corporation, saying what they believe.
(43:49):
Because Woad got tremendous uh, you know, you know, applause
inside of the inside of the ESPN family for saying this, right,
and you said you'd tweeted out like this is distracting
in some ways. I mean, the reality is it gets
a lot more attention and it forces ESPN to acknowledge it,
at least in some way. But Woaj has the right
(44:09):
to his opinion. He can say f you to a
senator if he wants to. There's no I think he
believes that, and I think he means it. And I
don't particularly begrudge anybody from their own ability to have
their own political opinions, But when you represent an ESPN
organization that's supposed to be covering the the n b A,
to me, this is just a lustrative of ESPN's contempt
(44:32):
for a large percentage of their audience that they would
even have somebody saying this. And by the way, do
you think that Woach keeps his job if he responds
this way to a o C. If Barack Obama's office
sends out a press release and he immediate responses fuck
you to Barack Obama or tow AOC, is there any
way that he keeps his job at ESPN. In other words,
(44:54):
you're a Republican senator, I think he I think he
can get away with saying that because there's so much
poured in contempt for Republicans inside of ESPN. But if
he had done that to a Democratic star, I think
there's a good chance he gets fired. Yeah, it's probably
as probably a different standard for sure, but you know,
(45:14):
I play. I think the big thing here is that
it just it just shows you that ESPN is not
willing to do their job of actually a reporting and
be asking tough questions. And to me that that was
a significance of his email. I mean, listen, I want
to be clear about that that I never asked for
an apology from now. I don't want one, and I
don't want to cancel either. This isn't about I don't.
(45:36):
I don't. I'm not asked him to be fired. I
don't want it to be cancel culture right against it? Yeah,
against it. So some people sit in me like, are
you trying to cancel him? I'm not trying to cancel him.
I don't even want an apology from him, you know.
I mean when Whitlock asked me, hey, do you want
Loves to apologize? I said no, I don't want to apologize.
I mean the ESPN, you know, made him do this
(45:58):
thing where they went out and apologizing, you know whatever.
My point is is that that is a distraction. That
whole thing is a distraction from the bottom line, which
is that ESPN attitude that's reflected by their star reporter.
Their attitude. Isn't that what we want to ask tough questions?
Will it dep you? We want to say something, well,
(46:19):
why isn't the NBA doing that? If you how dare
you even post question? And that's the attitude, I mean,
how dare you even ask? And my my view is is,
wait a minute, why aren't you asking? I mean, you're
the reporter. Why aren't you out there asking? Why is
it ESPN as a news organization for sports allegedly, why
aren't they pressing these questions? And it just goes back
(46:39):
to they're they're bought in, appear to be to the agenda,
the corporate woke agenda of the n b A and uh,
they're brought in to to what's going on in China.
And this is why, by the way, Clay I said yesterday, listen,
rather than you know, ESPN is is calling calling me Disney.
People are calling me. They're saying, how can we talk
(47:00):
to you? And I and I said, listen, let's just
let's just get to the bottom mine here. I'm inviting
the ESPN CEO to my office. So I said, let's
just let's let's talk. Let's Jimmy Pittero and I let's
just sit down and talk, and let's talk about the
NBA and China and ESPN and what you guys are
(47:21):
doing and you're reporting. Let's have an open dialogue about it.
So that's what I've done. By the way, for the record,
I have invited him to come to Washington to sit
down and talk. I want to talk to a bunch
of lobbyists. I want to talk to him. I want
to talk to the ESPN CEO, and I don't want
to talk about woes. I want to talk about China
and the NBA and ESPN coverage and their responsibilities. And
(47:42):
I hope they'll say, yes, what what have you heard
of anything from the NBA, Disney and ESPN so far?
Is it so far just been corporate pr stooges trying
to spend you or what sort of response It's obviously
only been a day, But what sort of response have
you gotten so far? Yeah, it's it's been just to
know what was was a he he was out of line.
(48:03):
I think they put out a statement, the ESPN put
out the state yesterday afternoon sort of you know how
he this was. He was, he was a very bad
boy and shouldn't have talked that way, and we'll take
care of it, he said. I think you know that
that apologies are are cheap, and they don't do anything.
You know, Let's let's let's get to the action, you know,
let's let's get to the actually doing something about the
(48:24):
real issue. And that's why I say, I haven't you know,
I haven't heard anything substantive from anybody. So I don't
want them trotting out their employees for apologies. I want
to see them actually standing up and asking the tough questions.
And I'd like some answers from the NBA. Let's not
let them off the hook, you know. I mean, ESPN
here has inserted themselves into the story, but expose themselves really,
(48:47):
But you know, the n B A I expect a
response from Silver. I'm awaiting a response for Silver. I'd
heard zero from him or from the league, and I'd
like some answers to my questions. And when I get
those answers, I'm gonna let people know. If I don't
get answers, I'm gonna let them know that. So I
expect to hear from the NBA. And UH, I also
(49:07):
am looking forward to sitting down with the ESPN CEO,
and I hope that takes place in we're talking to
Missouri Senator Josh Holley. I want to finish up here.
You're a sports fan. I'm a sports fan. Almost everybody
listening to us right now as a sports fan. Uh.
The decision by sports leagues to decide to embrace politics,
and let's be honest, one side of politics. Uh, we're
(49:30):
not talking about, like you said, very very sort of
unify unifying things like it's one thing if you want
to combat cancer, or if you want to say, hey,
we're trying to raise money for the troops, things that
nine point nine percent probably even larger than that of
Americans would agree on. Now we're talking about taking sides
in social issues and not just taking sides having corporate
(49:53):
speak pick sides. Why is that bad for sports fans? Well,
I mean it just is something becomes something else that
divide the sports then instead of something that unites us,
it becomes another way that we're divided as Americans and
I you know, we've seen this, this attitude from the
corporate the c suite class, the corporate class here now
(50:16):
for really the number of years, and it's getting worse
and worse, where they increasingly look down on so much
of America, the same people whose jobs that they're perfectly
willing to ship out overseas and and say, you know,
good luck to you, but we're going to make a
quick buck by moving to China, moving to you know,
pick your country. And it's that kind of attitude that's
(50:37):
infected the c suite and I think you're seeing that
now in fact the sports corporate world as well. And
it's just it's a contempt for a lot of their
fans and for a lot of this country. And it
just turned sports into another partisan battleground and into another
way where some of America looks down on the rest
of America. And you know, for for me, for you,
(50:58):
I mean growing up loving sports, playing sports, that's something
that historically has brought this country together. It's where we've
celebrated the things that we love together and that united Americans.
That's part of the promise of sports. And uh, I
hate to see that promise broken. And betrayed. Last question,
I appreciate all the time. I know how busy you are.
(51:19):
Missouri Senator Josh Holli. You can go follow him on Twitter. Uh.
He's been doing fantastic work here holding what I would say,
the sports leagues accountable for many of their hypocrisies. Broad
question here, some people say, okay, why does this matter?
Um In terms of using the NBA as a prism
and Disney and ESPN as a prism through which to
(51:39):
view Chinese American relations, Here's what I would say, and
then I want you to try to sum it up
as well. What I would say people out there listening
is there's a difference between someone saying, hey, we're we
want our laws to apply in our region. Right. So
it's one thing for for China to say, hey, you
need to change that movie, Hollywood in order to have
(52:02):
this movie air in China, and for American companies to
make changes. It's another thing entirely for China to do
what I believe they are doing now, which is saying
we expect for Chinese rule of law to govern other
places as well as well, which is what they said
to the n B. A fired Darryl Moray, the First
(52:23):
Amendment doesn't apply when you're dealing with China because there
are no First Amendment rights here. And what I am
seeing and I think Hong Kong is a metaphor. Taiwan
could be, the South China Sea could be as well.
It is a metaphor of China's attempts to take over
the world of global thought. With what they are doing
to the m b A, they are trying to do
(52:44):
to the rest of the globe. And so it's important
for Americans to understand that their own sports are trying
to be co opted by a Chinese communist authoritarian government.
That is my philosophy on why this matters in such
a big way. Would you agree, how would you expound
upon that idea? I think you're right. I mean, it's
it's about imperialism. It's about Chinese imperialism, the Communist Party,
(53:07):
and the Chinese Communist Party isn't forget people of China
have no say in any of this, you know, and
they are held under the thumb of the small group
of thugs. But it's about them trying to impose their
authoritarian ideology on all the rest of us. And you're
really you're right, clave They're not content just to do
that within the bounds of China. They are trying to
(53:30):
reach into our own country, to our athletes, to our markets. Uh,
They're they're trying to to to reach into the the
average everyday America. I mean, this is the same government.
Let's not forget Chinese government that also hacked all of
our information in the in the Equifax briek from a
couple brief from a couple of years ago. All these
folks who had their personal information stolen, who was behind
(53:52):
that China was? China is actively trying to spy on
everyday normal Americans all over the country, every second of
the day, every day of the week, and they're trying
to impose their values on us. And this is why
I come back to, you know, for American companies, what's
wrong with being proud of being American Number one? I mean,
(54:13):
what's what's okay? So NBA, I get it, you do
business all over the world, you're a global brand. Fine,
but what what's wrong with being proud of being an
American and saying, listen, we're at least going to take
a stand for the things that all Americans agree on,
and all Americans agree on the right to freedom of speech,
and we're going to take a stand for that, which,
by the way, you can't put on a jersey. Freedom
(54:35):
of speech not permitted to be on an NBA jersey.
First Amendment not permitted to be on an NBA Jersey.
And when the Chinese government comes then to us as Americans,
and comes to this country and says, no, you can't
talk about this, that and the other. You can't talk
about your American principles in your own country without threat
(54:56):
of censorship from China, we have a problem. And that's
why I just think it's not it doesn't take a
lot of courage here, by the way, for these corporations
and for NBA Corporate to actually say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
We're drawing the line right there. We're not going to
let you tell us what do because Clay's thing is
it's only gonna get worse. You know, if NBA Corporate
thinks that vowing the need of China is on these
(55:17):
issues is going to stand them in good stead. If
they think, you know, the use silver space, that we
have mutual respect, they are dead wrong. China is going
to continue to tighten the screws. They're going to continue
to hold hostage corporations who won't do what they want
them to do. And I just think that, you know,
the American people deserve to actually have uh, they're these
(55:38):
these corporations take a stand and say, you know, we're
not We're not afraid to be American and we're not
We're not afraid to stand up for America. Amen, keep
fighting the good fight, Senator. Go follow Senator Josh Holly
on Twitter this podcast if you enjoy its, share with
your friends. We need to get you on again sometime
soon because I want to dive into a lot of
these issues that I agree with you on about the
(55:59):
tech companies and the way that China and other foreign
interests are manipulating American opinion. Uh, I think frankly illegally,
but also surreptitiously through our social media platforms, which I
know you've been a big investigator and proponent of spending
more time on that as well. Thank you for all
the time. Thank you for the good work, Senator, and
please keep us updated on what the NBA, what ESPN,
(56:23):
and what what certainly Disney says about your request for information.
You bet Clay. Thanks for having me. That is Missouri
Senator Josh Holly. I'm Clay Travis has been the Wins
and Losses podcast. Thanks for listening, Go listen and subscribe.
You're gonna love these conversations and always listen to out
kick the coverage on Fox Sports Radio and read out
(56:45):
kick dot com
Walcome in wins and lost his podcast without kick. Appreciate
all of you hanging out with us. We've got a
special Saturday edition of the podcast today for a lot
of you. There was a a wild story on Friday
which illuminated many of the hypocrisies that currently exist in
the sporting universe, particularly with the n B, A and
ESPN and what I would call the woke center universe
(00:23):
of the far left wing sports that is trying to
take over all of the discussion and a lot of
that centator around Missouri Senator Josh Holly, who completely called uh,
the NBA and ESPN on their hypocrisies and he's joining
us now. Senator. First of all, UH, bravo, because Jason
(00:44):
Witlock and myself have been talking about a lot of
the issues that you brought to a head in a
way UH that that that frankly outside of the media
I have not seen. So we'll get into a lot
of that, But first I just want to say thanks
for actually taking the step and illuminate aiding what is
to me a glaring and transparent is example of hypocrisy
(01:05):
in the world of sports. No, we'll you bet, and
thanks for having me thanks for all of the great
work and coverage that you're providing. An out kick. All right,
so let's dive in. I like to start off by
kind of letting people figure out the background of who
we're talking to. And we're gonna get into the China
and the NBA debacle, which I know you've been a
part of, and I believe you were in Hong Kong
(01:27):
viewing the protest for yourself back in October of last year.
And for people out there who are like, well, we'll
get into that, but this is something that you have
been talking about. This something that I've been talking about
for a long time, even before uh, the NBA got involved.
We're gonna get to China and the United States relationship
in a second, But first of all, your background. I'm
kind of fascinated by this. You went to, if I'm
(01:48):
not mistaken, Stanford undergrad and then to Yale Law and
you went to Stanford coming out of a school in
Kansas City. But after having grown up in Missouri, was
it a culture shock for you to travel from Missouri
all the way out to Palo Alto to Stanford. And
the reason why I asked is I grew up in
Nashville and then went away to college in Washington, d C.
(02:09):
And even growing up in Nashville, I just wasn't prepared
for what the East Coast would be like. I'm curious
if the West Coast was an initial culture shock for
you and what you thought about Stanford while you were
out there. Yeah, no, it was the culture shock for sure. Uh.
I grew up in a in the town of uh,
not quite five thousand people in rural Missouri, at which
I'm really proud of. I mean, I'm a small town
(02:30):
boy and my wife and I in Missouri. I live
and now in a small town Ozark, Missouri there, so uh,
you know, proud of that background. And went to Katholic
high school as you say, and that casey, I grew
up at this way. I grew up reading Whitlock because
he was at the Star when I was in high school. Yes,
(02:50):
I don't know if that makes me younger him over
or maybe both, but ye came that later anyhow, But yeah,
that's my background. Also grew up playing sports. Sports were
an important part of my life, and as there are
for a lot of a lot of kids everywhere, but
especially small town kids. So I started playing baseball when
I was five, and then football was the big one.
Though my dad actually played football at a little college
(03:12):
of Kansas, and so I I grew up hearing stories
about that. So I started playing peewee football with the
pad and all when I would believe it was eight
seven or eight was the first time I could do it,
and I played all through high school. And I wanted
to play in college, you know, is one that was
like a lot of guys I call, man, I'm going
to play in college. And it wasn't good enough to
do that. But I had a good college experience. But
(03:33):
yet to your to your point, it was it was
certainly a different culture. And uh, you know, I'm glad
for my years at Stanford and Yale. And I often
say these days, I'm pretty critical of people who, uh
the elites as I as I say, who go to
schools like that. And people sometimes say to me, well,
how why did you say that, I mean, you went there,
And my answer is, yeah, I did, And so I
(03:54):
know exactly what they think. I mean, don't tell me
that these people don't look down many of them on
folks who have the kind of background that you and
I have, and folks who worked for a living. I mean,
I know what they think because I went there. I've
heard it all and I've seen it, and uh, you
know it was it was good for me to clarify
my own beliefs during those times, to clarify what I
(04:15):
thought I'd kind of been put through the tests, because
I can tell you when you're a when you're a
Midwestern conservative going to those schools, you do not get
a free pass. I mean, as as you know, and
you've got to learn to defend yourself. And so that
was all good. So you talk about growing up a
fan of sports and playing sports. What were your teams?
Were you a big Missouri fan? Were you a college
(04:36):
football fan? Were you a sometimes a fractious relationship I
know between the Royals and UH and Cardinal fans. What
what teams did you grow up die hard rooting for
the most when you were a kid. Well, Chiefs for sure,
you know, Selexington, Missouri, which is my hometown about an
hour east of Kansas City, right on the Missouri River.
And so we were in the Kansas City media market.
(04:59):
So te you know, I mean absolutely in fact that
this this this whole experience. The last couple of seasons,
Patrick Mahomes coming to us, and of course the Super
Bowl was you know, for for me, for a kid
who grew up the Chiefs fan, which was just truly
dream come true because I can remember vividly the Montana years.
That's the beginning of my high school experience, and I
can remember, I know right where I was when the Chiefs.
(05:22):
I could still was sitting in a sitting in a
booth at a little local diner and Lexington watching the
game when when the Montana and the Chiefs lost in
the a f C Championship, So I remember that vividly.
So getting back and then winning that and getting onto
the Super Bowl. Winning that has been like you know,
kind of it's kind of bringing a full circle and
and maybe working out some karma there. So anyhow, that's
(05:44):
been awesome. But Chiefs for sure Royals because we're on
the west side of the state. So I've since then,
you know, sort of made my piece of the Cardinals.
I love the Cards. I cheer for him, but I'll
just be honest. I've said this the Cards fans like,
if if you know Royals are playing the Cars, I'm
gonna cheer for the Royals. So I grew up a
big Royals fan, grew up going to the games, old
(06:04):
enough that I can remember seeing George Brett play, and
going to those games was a big childhood. You had
to be a big back in the day to Jackson,
Yeah I did. I got to Saint Jackson was there
when I was a little kid, and uh oh yeah,
I mean he was just you know that he was
obviously a superstar and uh an idol of mine. I
(06:27):
mean growing up you know that the playing uh on
the other coast as he did for football, as you know,
too bad he couldn't play in Kansas City, but no,
he was amazing. So where were you for the Super Bowl?
Did you watch it at home with friends? Fans? Yeah?
So how nervous do you get? So I'm a Titans fan,
(06:47):
so full disclosure. So you ruined my boy's fall, uh
with and also their dad. But we made an unexpected
run to the a f C Championship game. Obviously. But
I find Patrick Mahomes to be, you know, sort of
like Steph Curry and that it's almost impossible to dislike him.
He seems to play with such an effervescent personality and
obviously he's an incredible talent, But as a long suffering
(07:11):
I think it's probably fair to say Kansas City Chiefs fan.
Because you're around my age, so you have seen a
lot of losses over the years in the playoffs and
everything else. He has to feel like just an unbelievable
gift from the sporting gods, right, totally, Oh totally. And
now I've got two little boys of my own, my
older boys seven and my younger boy is five, and
(07:31):
so to be able to watch the games with them
and to have them they're just old enough this year
when we watched them last year together in the season
before this past one, and when they were six and four,
but to have him be able to watch the games
and kind of get into it a little bit more
this year, that there's something I think, you know, as
a father, there's something special about that, especially if the
(07:52):
game has meant something, the team has meant something to you,
or for me really, to be honest, it kind of
brought back memories. My dad was my coach when I
was playing pee wee football, little league football up until
I went to high school. So there was just something
about sharing that with my own boys that brought that
memories of of of my childhood with my dad coaching me,
and that there's just you know, if that's an awesome thing.
(08:13):
So that took to be honest, that was the best
part about watching the game. And my kids helped keep
me calm because they, you know, they understood that we
were down, and you know, they could tell but you know,
they're sending five and they were like, oh, we're gonna win, Daddy,
We're gonna win, you know, And Daddy was like, man,
I'm sweating it by the end of the in the third.
But anyhow, it was. It was good and of course
they get My younger boy can still rattle off the
(08:35):
score and he'd tell you what the other day he
said to his mom, Well, at halftime, Mama, score was
this and that and we were down. And I was like, man,
that stayed with them. Uh so pretty cool. Now, I
I what I have found. I've got three boys, twelve,
nine and five, and what I have found is so
amazing about it is it takes you back because everybody
can kind of get jaded as you get older about sports.
(08:57):
You learned some of the less egg zilarating parts, let's say,
of of the sporting universe and what a business it is,
but going back and being able to see it through
your kid's eyes kind of takes you back in time
and reminds you of what it was like to be seven, eight,
nine years old yourself when you were a fan. It's
it's one of the coolest things I think about about
(09:17):
being a dad, certainly as it relates to sports. Now,
I'm fascinated by something else in your background. You were
you clerked after you graduated from Yale Law School, and
you ended up on the Supreme Court clerking for John Roberts.
I believe you met your wife there. But I've always
been fascinated as a guy who went to Vanderbilt Law school.
I never did any of the clerk experience, but one
(09:39):
of my classmates was a Supreme Court clerk, and it's
just such an august, incredible, unique accomplishment. What was that
like for you to be a clerk on the Supreme
Court and what was that experience like? Well, I did
indeed beat my wife there, as you said, so it
worked out great for me. I'm not sure that her
family still thinks it was a great year for her,
(10:01):
but but it was a great year for me. And
we're coming up on the ten years of Mary's defty
this month, Um, but now you know click clearing of
the court. I mean, the thing about getting to work
at the Supreme Court is that you get to see
so many cases. First of all, because the court gets
about ten thousand requests a year to hear cases, and
(10:21):
that's how many requests come in from the lower courts.
And they only hear this year they only heard fifty some.
My year they heard about seventy cases. So a fraction, small,
small fraction of the cases they get requests for do
they actually hear Grant searches. The is a formal term
for that. So you just see so many cases and
(10:43):
you get to learn so much about different parts of
the law. And you get to see great lawyers too.
I mean, you know the arguments. I went to every
argument that we had at the court that year, Um,
and you know, it's it's just fascinating. You learn so much,
and I've got tremendous respect for the courts of the Institution.
I tell you, I'm not very happy with this year.
(11:03):
That's a different subject, but you know, I've I learned
a lot and it made a big difference to me.
That's the kind of law I went on to practice them.
I became a constitutional lawyer. My my wife as well,
like my wife's still practices, and uh, that's really my
my experience of the court really a shape chap. So
did you so a couple of things that I think
are interesting in the background of the court. Did you
(11:25):
play in the highest court in the land and the
basketball gym that was there? Was there a league? Was
there any kind of regular basketball game that would take
place there? I did play up there, and in fact
the year that I was there, Uh, the Jayhawks from
neighboring Kansas that won the de Nasial v Civil In
National Championship Innitcial Basketball Championship, which was you know, a
(11:48):
little a little hard to take being a being Missouri boy.
But they came to the reason I mentioned is the
Chief Justice, who is also a big sports fan. The
Chief Justice invited them to come to the super in
Court when they made their DC trip and they got
invited the White House, the chiefs ass said, well, why
don't come to the Supreme Court. And then he had
the truly master stroke idea. He said, let's invite him
(12:09):
to do a scrimmage. You shoot around at the highest
court in the land, which they did. So it was
kind of awesome, even though it was you know, Kansas,
it was kind of awesome to see those guys up
at the highest court in the land, up there shooting
around and and you know, we got to go out
there with them, and then we had them for lunch
all that stuff. But yeah, the Clerks would get together
(12:30):
and play from time to time. I'll be honest with
the basketball is is not my sport, but it's you know,
it's it's it's awesome to be up there and to
be able to to think about, you know, this is
a court that and not only have the Justice has
played on over the years, Michael Jordan has played on
that court. Clarence Thomas was friends with Jordan I think
still is and invited him to come and so he
(12:51):
shot around on that court, and you know, so that's
pretty cool. Another thing about it is, I don't know
if you've seen a clip that this ceiling in that court,
because it wasn't designed to be a basketball court. It's
right above the main courtroom. The feeling is well up there. Yeah,
you basically can't shoot a three pointer, I mean not
with any any kind of ark at all. So it's
a low ceiling, and then the other thing is being
(13:13):
above the main courtroom. There's these stories from back in
the eighties when the court would be in session hearing
oral arguments, and a couple of clerks who were supposed
to be in their seats in the courtroom listening, decided,
you know what a good opportunity for us, maybe just
shoot a few baskets and they go up and do
and they could hear the basketball bouncing in the courtroom.
(13:35):
So since been during oral arguments they literally rope off
the court just in case, you know, somebody should want
to wander out there. So it's pretty fun. How many
of the justices are legitimate sports fans? Would you say?
Because I always think that's interesting. Everybody obviously has serious
things in their life, and for most people, sports are
(13:56):
an escape from that serious part of their life. John Roberts,
it sounds like some atty good sports fan. Were there
other justices that you heard talking about sports and some
guys can fake it right or girls you know, like
you know that they're not really fans. Did that Was
there like a legitimate sports relationship at all that you
picked up on when you were Clark Gage Justice Thomas
(14:16):
is a big sports fan in my observation, love sports. Um,
you know follows sports. And uh, I said, you know,
friends with athletes. I mean that. So Justice Thomas for sure,
and you have the Chief Justice is both himself you know,
played played high school football rather and that was kind
of a formative experience for him. Uh and uh, you
(14:36):
know continues he was or used to be at least
a golfer and continues to do that and follows that
very very closely. Uh So, now the courts changed pretty
fair amounts since I've I've been there. I don't know
a lot of the new justices, but it seems like
Kavanaugh is a pretty big, pretty big fan. And I
hear that and he he of course wasn't wasn't there
when I was there, But yeah, are the ones who
(14:59):
were there when I would around, I would say, probably,
uh yeah, Justice Thomas and the Chief Justice where the
two biggest sportsens that I knew. Maybe others were, but
I didn't. I didn't hear him talk about it, but
I heard the Chief and I heard Justice Thomas talk
about him to regular face. It was not uncommon for
the Chief Justice to say to us as a group
of clerks are here. He'd say, hey, did you see
(15:20):
the game last night? Can you believe you know, can
you believe they missed that vehicle? Did you see the putt?
That tigers? Tigers still playing? I guess he's playing again now.
But he was at his height then, you know, did
you see that? Probably the tiger? That kind of thing
that was pretty common. And of course we would always
complain him like, well we didn't get see any of that, chief,
because you had stuff working that we were hony day
(15:41):
when you were a clerk, like what was your typical
day it was? You know, it's it's clerks make it
sound worse than it is. It's for one thing, it's
only a year, you know, and you can a do
anything for a year. Indeed, such it's such a great
experience that you want to soak up all of it,
you know. I mean, you'd be an idiot to say, oh,
you know, I gotta have two weeks a vacation, which
(16:01):
probably we did not yet, but you know that you'd
be stupid to do that over that experience. But you know,
there were some long days and then there were some
more normal days. The justices and again this more than
ten years ago and now I'm dating myself, but the
justices are pretty hard workers, um, and you know they would,
uh we were, certainly and then put you this way
(16:22):
any time to teach justices and chambers. We were expected
to be there. I mean, there was no doubt about that.
Like you know, if he was in and his routine
was back then he'd dropped off his young son, UM,
who's now all grown up, and he dropped him off
in the morning at school and come into the court
and work all day and he'd work on the way home.
And we need to be available, so and you know
(16:43):
we work weekends, um when we needed to, which was
a good a good person of the time, but it
was it was such a great experience that you know,
it's one that that I was for everybody who who
loves the law and its interested in the law. And
like I said, it made a huge difference for me
starting not like if I could be you and you
could be me for just what hour, if you could
(17:05):
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the United States Forest Service and the ad Council. All right, well,
I'll skip ahead. You you are now a senator from Missouri.
We're talking with Josh Holley, and uh, you obviously are
(18:39):
very accomplished, um in what you've done since then, and
getting on the Supreme Court as a clerk is a
is a heck of accomplishment for I know many people
who are listening who are at least familiar with the
legal field in any way. So is going to Stanford
and getting into Yale law school. Um. But what we
are focused on here, and I just kind of wanted
to get people a background. I was fascinated by it myself.
(19:00):
Is uh. I believe and I think you probably agree
with me. And you're we're around the same age, born
in the same year. We kind of grew up, you
and I did on the tail end of the Cold
War with the United States and Russia. And I believe
that we are in what should be classified in some
way as a Cold War with China right now, and
(19:21):
that China is taking advantage of some of the difficulties
going on right now around the globe, which frankly, they
caused the coronavirus to continue to take more and more
of the rights away from people in the vicinity of
China who have had them, whether that be Hong Kong,
which is going on right now and we're gonna get into,
or certainly I think they would like to to reclaim Taiwan.
(19:43):
I think that's certainly one of their goals the South China.
See the aggressive moves that they're making there to try
to control more of the area around China. Would you
agree with me that the United States probably the biggest
threat that we face right now is China on a
variety of different fronts, and that it feels a little
bit at least like to me, very Russia, like in
(20:05):
the Cold War from when I was a kid and
what was America was going through at the time. I mean,
I just don't think there's any doubt that China is
our biggest national security threat, probably our biggest economic threat
of this century, and it's gonna be like this for
the rest of our lifetimes. I don't have any doubt.
By the way, who is going to emerge from this
(20:28):
as number one. It's gonna be us. But we've you know,
we've got some work to do. And this is you know,
this is life, right, I mean, this is this is
part of it. You're going to have people who don't
like America, who want to knock America off its pedestal.
China has been trying to steal our jobs with some success,
too much success, and steal our our technology, steal our property.
(20:51):
They've been doing all of that for decades now, and
I think frankly that the d C establishment has been
asleep at the wheel on this for way too long.
But we we've got some work here to do to
stop what China is trying to do, what they're trying
to take from us, stop them from from inserting themselves.
They want to be a global notice, a global power, Clay.
They really want to be the global power. And they
(21:13):
see that differently than we do. You know. They see
that is they want to control I mean, them being
in charge, is them controlling the world and controlling us,
and we can't let that happen. Okay. So this grew
the the intersection of sports and China. Some people who
have not followed this case closely but are listening to
us now. Back in October, the the NBA, which has
(21:37):
had a very deep relationship with China as they've expanded
their brand around the world. Uh, the NBA was on
sort of a Goodwill tour around Asia and the Houston
Rocket GM. Darryl Moray tweeted Free Hong Kong as a
part of the Hong Kong protests, and all hell basically
broke loose in terms of the NBA's relationship with China.
(22:01):
And before I get into the specifics of that, you
actually traveled over to China to witness the Hong Kong
protest for yourself, I understand, back in October of last year. Uh,
and we've certainly seen this relationship devolved. I mean, in fact,
all of the protesters and what they were protesting for
(22:22):
has been proven to be a true maybe even studying
to me, maybe to you as well, how quickly China
has moved to curtail those basic human rights and freedoms
in Hong Kong. But what did you see on your
trip in October as these protests were going on. Yeah,
I needed to go and and see it for myself.
That's the reason I went. I just we I had
(22:44):
talked to the protesters, uh from Afar, you know, from
from here in the States. But I just I just
decided that, you know what, I've got to see this.
So I went to Hong Kong to say, and and
I did. I didn't want to stay cooped up in
an hotel some somewhere. We got out on the streets,
much to the consternation of of I think some of
the diplomatic corps, But there you go. Um, So we
(23:05):
went out and and we're out on the streets to
the protesters in several different locations. And you know, I
saw saw what was going on. It was the real deal.
Um and uh. I will just say that, you know,
seeing up close and personal what the authoritarian resume Invaizing
was willing to do and we're doing to their own people,
(23:27):
not allowing them to assemble. You know, we think for
granted a lot of our rights United States. In the
United States, will we allow folks to assemble and protests peacefully?
Even a lot of times about a permit. I mean,
you know, technically in most places you're supposed to get
a permit, but you know here in the US, a
lot of times like hey, it's you know, if it's peaceful,
we'd let to do it. There in Hong Kong, and
this is back in October, you couldn't even get a permit.
(23:47):
I mean, these protesters were asking, would you please give
us a permit which they were entitled to under law. Nope.
Then they were clubbing them down, they were spraying them down,
they were arresting teenagers, throwing them into prison, be eating
them viciously. And I saw it. I saw all this
on on the streets, and so it just to me
it was such a vivid example of the way Beijing
(24:10):
does business, you know, and what they have done to
us for years in taking our jobs, in stealing our
property and trying to build their military on the backs
of our middle class. That's has been their modus operending
for decades now. You could you could see that same
spirit out on the street to Hong Kong. If they
beat their own people in Hong Kong. Let's not forget
(24:32):
they're Chinese. Take They're out there beating their own people,
arresting them, spraying then macing them, you know, threatening them,
shooting them in some instances, um you know, with note
the protesters have no weapons, that their their thug police
had weapons, shooting them openly, and it's just crazy stuff.
(24:52):
And that just shows you, I think, what Beijing's mentality is.
And so Darryl Morey, the Houston Rockets GM says free
Hong Kong and the NBA ultimately has their exhibition games.
There's all this controversy. Uh. To me, the NBA players,
the coaches, Adam Silver, they bent the knee. Uh. And
(25:13):
then to use the Lebron James phrase that that he
likes to claim that they will never do. Lebron shut
up and dribbled and uh and and bowed down to
his Chinese overlords. We saw the same thing happen with
Steve Kerr and Greg Popovich, two coaches who are quick
to rip everything Donald Trump says. But when Steve Kerr
(25:35):
was specifically asked about that situation, he said, you know,
do you say? He was asked, do you support protests
in Hong Kong? He said, well, that's a complex situation.
He still hasn't said anything. And now the protest have
clearly been proven to be Uh. These guys knew what
was going on because China has swept in. They passed
(25:57):
new rules. You can go to jail for years if
you protest. They are literally pulling books out of libraries
in Hong Kong that have to do with the with
with democracy there. And so this is this is for
Americans who really haven't been paying a lot of attention
to this. This is Orwellian what China is doing. They
(26:19):
are taking over in Hong Kong, and it is a
horrible sign of what might be to come. And frankly,
I think the United States has been asleep at the
wheel and has not been aggressive enough in condemning what's
going on in Hong Kong. Yeah, you're I mean, you're
absolutely right about what's going on there. I mean it's
a democracy is over now in Hong Kong. I mean
(26:40):
that's just the sad, the sad but stark truth. The
Beijing has passed they call it a law. By the
way to Clay, I always always the fall when I
say that, because you know there is no legislature in Beijing,
they don't elect anybody. It's all fake and so beazing.
You said, we're passing a national security law. Well it's
not a law, and eat handed down on high from
(27:01):
the Chinese Communist Party, a bunch of unelected thugs. But
they've they've put it into operation in Hong Kong and
it being now no more, no more protests, no more assembly,
no more free speech, no more right to worship, none
of that stuff, yanking all of it and you've seen
it already. What they've done is that they put that
new law into effect, that edict. They swept up protesters.
(27:22):
You can't now, some protesters out in Hong Kong have
have tried to hold up just blank signs, Claire. They
don't say anything. There's no message on them that could
be that could be uh in any way destabilizing, whatever
that might mean. And these protesters are getting arrested for
holding up blank signs. I mean, it's just there's no
rule of law that this is just. It is pure
(27:42):
authoritarianism now. And that is again it shows you what
Beijing hopes frankly for the world, but certainly for any
area that is under their control. And they want to
just raise Hong Kong to the ground essentially in terms
of its freedoms, and then they want to turn their side.
You mentioned Taiwan earlier. They want to do that to Taiwan.
(28:03):
And the reason we care is number one. Of course,
we care about the fate of free people anywhere. I mean,
we are we're a free nation. I still believe in
the free world. I mean I believe in that thing
called the free world. We're a free people in America,
and so you know, we we our hearts are with
free people everywhere, number one, but number two, we care
about our own security. And the truth is a China
(28:25):
that is so emboldened that they will break all of
their treaty commitments because they have them in Hong Kong.
They'll break them in order to put that city on
the ground, and then we'll try to take over Taiwan,
and then we'll try to expend their dominance all over
the world. That is painderous, to put it mildly, to
the United States of America. They're nothing more threatening to
(28:45):
our jobs are our security than this kind of imperialism
in China. And that's what we're up against. And one
of the things that you can talk about for the
purposes of sports is this idea that sports can help
to raise awareness and consciousness of what might be going on,
and that rather than bow down to the Chinese overlords,
(29:06):
as the NBA has done and basically put Darryl Moray
and witness protection ever since he said free Hong Kong. Uh.
And so the NBA has made the decision, Okay, we're
gonna make uh statements on our jerseys. And this is
where your connection to the n b A and ESPN
(29:26):
and Disney came in. We're recording this on a Saturday. Yesterday,
on a Friday, you released a letter which asked a commissioner,
Adam Silver, why the NBA was allowing certain statements to
be made on a jersey, but for instance, they wouldn't
allow anybody to put free Hong Kong on their jerseys
(29:46):
or support the Chinese people who are consuming the NBA content. Uh,
and we'll see these games in theory, the n b
A is doing, what I think you would agree with me,
is sort of a fake woken us. Right. They will
rip American institutions, and they will rip American values which
will then be used as Chinese propaganda. Right because all
(30:09):
these Chinese communists are going to be showing the NBA
in their country and they're gonna say, see, look, everything
is not great in America. Look at all the things
in ways that they're being mistreated. And this could be
if the NBA wants to get political with their jerseys,
why are they being hypocritical bowing down to China and
their communist leadership while ripping the United States. And you
(30:32):
raised this issue with Adam Silver, and all hell broke
loose again there as well, But what was the intent
of your letter to the NBA. The NBA makes a
tremendous amount of money in China, I mean just a
tremendous amount of money. And then this is where this
is where I think the NBA has some obligations, right,
(30:53):
I mean even before they started this stuff about putting
social justice caused statements on the back of the uniforms
just recently, and their relationship with China is now pretty
long standing. And when you're making that much money in
that kind of a place, doing deals with that sort
of a government, which is what the NBA corporate is doing,
then I think when you've got a situation month we've
(31:13):
had in Hong Kong, or like you've got with the Weakers,
who are a religious minority who are literally in concentracing
camps in China, in constant tracing camps, now I think
you've got some responsibility to say something about that, at
least say that, oh my gosh, we don't agree with
with that. But you know, I mean, the NBA's what's
their latest contract just that this past year worth over
(31:35):
one point five billion dollars. I mean, it's just unbelievable,
the amount of money you mentioned, the you know, sort
of woke stance at the NBA's take, and it's corporate.
It's classic corporate wokeness. You know. It's nothing that would
interfere with profits for having sake. I mean, let you know, profits,
Oh my gosh, we're gonna get those, and nothing that
would interfere with our our multinational plan to scoop up
(31:57):
money and all of these different markets for so many
American corporations. If that means selling out the American worker,
sending jobs overseas, oh by golly, we'll do that in
the heartbeat. But don't you know. Ah, but but we're woke.
You know, don't get mad at us because we're wok.
It's really a huge distraction to try and move attention
away from what they're really doing, what these huge corporations
are really doing. And the NBA is right there in
(32:19):
terms of the money they are making it China and
the kind of deal that they have made with the
Chinese government. And uh, you know, I think it is
not too much to ask him, which is my point
to Silver in my letter, what, first of all, what
is the deal with China? Why aren't you saying anything,
as you make all this money as an organization, and
(32:39):
at the very least, if you're gonna put statements on
the back of jerseys, why wouldn't you allow a player
to wear a free Hong Kong statement on the back?
I mean, for that matter, why not to support our troops,
you know, I mean, what's wrong with that too? But
just on the China thing, why not free Hong Kong?
Why not free to weaker's that's that that's the religious
minority that's in concentration camps. Because you're right, the people
(33:00):
of China would see that. That would send a message. Uh,
it would, I think, frankly show that the NBA is
willing to stand up a little bit. But you know,
oh no, we can't. We can't have any of that.
You saw the reaction. Also, Adam Silver said that they
had mutual respect the NBA did for China. You just
(33:20):
mentioned the concentration camps, the cracking down on all Hong
Kong democracy, the fact that over a billion Chinese people
don't have basic human rights. It should be insulting to
all Americans that Adam Silver said in any way that
the NBA has mutual respect for what China stands for,
shouldn't it. Yeah, that's just about money. I mean, it's
(33:43):
just sure, it's mutual respect for making money for NBA corporate.
I mean, that's that's what it's about. Again, as it
is for so many of these multinational corporations. I can
tell you that the Chinese government, they doesn't have any
respect for anybody in America. And you look at the
kind of respect they showed us when Daryl Morey, to
(34:04):
your point, Clay, when he had the audacity just to retweet,
as I recall, Moray didn't actually himself say anything, He
just retweeted a a one little line about Hong Kong.
And look how the Beijing government came down on this
American citizen by demanding he'd be fired, by threatening to
pull all the Rockets games from television, then I treatening
(34:26):
to pull all of the NBA games from all of
the Chinese platforms. I mean that's not respect. That is contempt.
That is an attempt to control and to to to
subjugate us, just like they want to subjugate their own people.
And for the NBA to to not only turn a
blind eye, but actually to cooperate, I mean to go
(34:46):
along with the cow towing by saying, oh more and
this spoke you know he wasn't speaking for the league. Uh,
and then silve all of Silver's other statements. You know
that was a Silver said that this is a bump
in the road. They're that little incident with more and
Hong Kong, and that you know they're working on repairing
the NBA's relationship with China, repairing it and what they
(35:06):
should be doing the Saint to Beijing. Listen, we're proud
to be Americans. And if you try to tell us
what to think, or what to say, or what to do,
we're gonna tell you we're a step off. Look for
your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest.
It's a storybook world for them. You look and see
a tree, They see the wrinkled face of a wizard
with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles,
(35:31):
They see a windy path that could lead to adventure,
and they see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world?
Find a forest near you and start exploring and discover
the forest dot org brought to you by the United
States Forest Service and the Council What grows in the
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(35:52):
Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds
grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect
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closer than you think. Find a forest near you and
start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot org brought to
(36:12):
you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.
Look to your children's eyes to see the true magic
of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You
look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face
of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They
see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that
(36:33):
could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide.
Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and
start exploring and discover the Forest dot org brought to
you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council.
We're talking to Missouri Senator Josh Halley. This is the
Winds and Losses podcast. Clay Travis here. All right, So
(36:53):
you write that letter, which, by the way, I thought
was fantastically well done. I retweeted it when I saw
go out and you also, and this is pretty commonplace.
It's a big story the way that the NBA's relationship
with China is going. And so when you write a
letter like this, it's not uncommon that media members would
(37:15):
get added to a letter like this via email. So
you can make them aware because they cover the league,
because they are that they should be aware of the
relationship between the NBA and politicians, given that the NBA
is going to be a social justice warrior organization at
least for this restart of the season in Orlando and
(37:37):
all the changes with the jersey and the statements on
the court and everything else. You send it out to
a variety of NBA media And how soon after that
email goes out does Adrian Wojnarowski. And I'll say it.
You may not want to curse, but he uh, he
writes back, uh, fuck you. That's the entire message from
(37:57):
his ESPN corporate email account. Back to your office for
having the gall to ask the n b A about
its response to to to China. How quickly does that happen?
And who on your staff was like, Oh my god,
is this real? I mean it kind of take me
into how that process played out. You know, we we
got that back from him. I mean, let me just look,
(38:21):
I can look right here within um oh to two minutes, Clay,
we sent it out at eight fifty five. I've got
this in front of me. We sent out the press
release about our letter to press at eight fifty five,
and at eight fifty seven blows rights back from his
iPhone because this tag sent from my iPhone, so he
gets that sit directly to him. Two minutes later, he
(38:43):
writes back, fuck you to a United States Senator in
Missouri from his esp In corporate email account. And did
you think it would be in pranked? Like when one
of your staff members was like, hey, wait a minute, uh,
you know, can you believe what Adrian Morgenarowski just wrote back? Well,
I have to say I did. I sort of looked
at it and listen, we get you know, we get responses.
(39:03):
No don members of the breast, but we you know,
we people troll us all the time, and you know
that's welcome to me to welcome to the internet. Yeah,
there's a lot of there's a lot of ridiculous in
this out there. So yeah, so but from a media member,
have you ever seen anything like that to have that
happen now quickly and have that response, and now I've
never seen that response from a from a media member before,
(39:25):
and it took you know, I was like, well, this
is My first thought was, what's the deal here? But
you know, no, I mean it's the ESPN dot com.
And then my my other thought was is that, well,
he's just saying what ESPN thanks. I'm frankly not surprised.
My my expectations could be perfectly honest with you, is
(39:47):
that ESPN would completely ignore because they don't want to
cover at all. Yeah. Absolutely, that's what they did back
in October. I mean, they crudgingly with the Hong Kong
blow up in the NBA back in October, grudgingly, as
memory serves, finally got around the covering a kind of
but you know, it's like, let's let's let's move on
as quick as possible because Clay, the ESPN, Disney the
(40:10):
parent company, you know, they they benefit to financially from
the the NBA's rate of relationship, which China. I mean,
let's you know, let's be honest here. So and I'm
sure in terms of you know, their their own staff
members views, employees views, uh, you know, it's not woke
center for nothing. So I was surprised by that response,
(40:31):
but I thought, you know, this is this is becoming
all two typical of what the media. They don't They
won't report the news, they won't actually ask the tough questions.
I mean, why why is the Rick question here is?
Why is an ESPN asking these questions of the NBA.
I mean, why aren't they going and saying, hey, hold
on this a second. Are you not gonna say anything
(40:52):
about what's going on in this country where you make
literally billions of dollars nothing? Why take pressing that? That's
the real issip. Yeah, and let's let's go in here
for a second to uh to the law. Because both
of us are lawyers. You know this better than I do,
because you are a freaking Supreme Court clerk. But there's
a difference between providing complete First Amendment freedoms to your
(41:15):
players to make whatever political statement they want to make
on their jerseys and discriminating on content, right, because what
the NBA is basically doing is a form of propaganda.
They are saying, hey, we're okay with you making political
statements so long as we agree with those political statements. Right. So,
(41:35):
in other words, it's not a content neutral policy when
it comes to their jersey. They are selecting the the
the the opinions that the players are allowed to advertise
on their jersey. And it's a very ripe moment of
hypocrisy here that you can point and say, oh, you're
fine ripping the United States and other institutions and taking
(41:59):
particular or sides here where there's zero risk because of
all the freedoms we have, but you won't stand up
for the basic human rights of others around the world
that you are taking billions of dollars for. This is
the very essence of what the job of sports media
should be, right to speak truth to power. Instead, you
(42:20):
raise all these issues and ESPN's top NBA reporter, his
first response is to say, not, oh, these are interesting
issues that should be explored. It's to say fuck you
to a sitting United States senator. You know it's you're
you're right about all of that claim you're and you're
write about it. Think it's such an important point that
(42:41):
this is corporate approved speech on the back of these jerseys.
My understanding is the NBA can correct me if I'm wrong,
But my understanding is that it's not like the players
can just go out and say, oh, this is what
I want to We're gonna do the cause statements. Here's
what I want to. Mind, Uh, the NBA has to
approve it. So that's they selected, you know handful right
(43:02):
that these that these statements here the approved statements. And yeah,
there's nothing in there about Hong Kong, about China, about
the concentration camps, none of that. Nor by the way,
is there anything in there like support our troops or
back the Blue or anything, or America or God bless America.
You know, we couldn't have that for having's sake. So this,
(43:25):
this is this is the NBA corporate saying that here's
the kind of speech that you could have and that yeah,
it just so happens to be speech that is great
for their bottom line. Imagine that. So also, again, I
want to circle back around to what I think is
the most stunning part about this is this is ESPN
really by and large as a corporation, saying what they believe.
(43:49):
Because Woad got tremendous uh, you know, you know, applause
inside of the inside of the ESPN family for saying this, right,
and you said you'd tweeted out like this is distracting
in some ways. I mean, the reality is it gets
a lot more attention and it forces ESPN to acknowledge it,
at least in some way. But Woaj has the right
(44:09):
to his opinion. He can say f you to a
senator if he wants to. There's no I think he
believes that, and I think he means it. And I
don't particularly begrudge anybody from their own ability to have
their own political opinions, But when you represent an ESPN
organization that's supposed to be covering the the n b A,
to me, this is just a lustrative of ESPN's contempt
(44:32):
for a large percentage of their audience that they would
even have somebody saying this. And by the way, do
you think that Woach keeps his job if he responds
this way to a o C. If Barack Obama's office
sends out a press release and he immediate responses fuck
you to Barack Obama or tow AOC, is there any
way that he keeps his job at ESPN. In other words,
(44:54):
you're a Republican senator, I think he I think he
can get away with saying that because there's so much
poured in contempt for Republicans inside of ESPN. But if
he had done that to a Democratic star, I think
there's a good chance he gets fired. Yeah, it's probably
as probably a different standard for sure, but you know,
(45:14):
I play. I think the big thing here is that
it just it just shows you that ESPN is not
willing to do their job of actually a reporting and
be asking tough questions. And to me that that was
a significance of his email. I mean, listen, I want
to be clear about that that I never asked for
an apology from now. I don't want one, and I
don't want to cancel either. This isn't about I don't.
(45:36):
I don't. I'm not asked him to be fired. I
don't want it to be cancel culture right against it? Yeah,
against it. So some people sit in me like, are
you trying to cancel him? I'm not trying to cancel him.
I don't even want an apology from him, you know.
I mean when Whitlock asked me, hey, do you want
Loves to apologize? I said no, I don't want to apologize.
I mean the ESPN, you know, made him do this
(45:58):
thing where they went out and apologizing, you know whatever.
My point is is that that is a distraction. That
whole thing is a distraction from the bottom line, which
is that ESPN attitude that's reflected by their star reporter.
Their attitude. Isn't that what we want to ask tough questions?
Will it dep you? We want to say something, well,
(46:19):
why isn't the NBA doing that? If you how dare
you even post question? And that's the attitude, I mean,
how dare you even ask? And my my view is is,
wait a minute, why aren't you asking? I mean, you're
the reporter. Why aren't you out there asking? Why is
it ESPN as a news organization for sports allegedly, why
aren't they pressing these questions? And it just goes back
(46:39):
to they're they're bought in, appear to be to the agenda,
the corporate woke agenda of the n b A and uh,
they're brought in to to what's going on in China.
And this is why, by the way, Clay I said yesterday, listen,
rather than you know, ESPN is is calling calling me Disney.
People are calling me. They're saying, how can we talk
(47:00):
to you? And I and I said, listen, let's just
let's just get to the bottom mine here. I'm inviting
the ESPN CEO to my office. So I said, let's
just let's let's talk. Let's Jimmy Pittero and I let's
just sit down and talk, and let's talk about the
NBA and China and ESPN and what you guys are
(47:21):
doing and you're reporting. Let's have an open dialogue about it.
So that's what I've done. By the way, for the record,
I have invited him to come to Washington to sit
down and talk. I want to talk to a bunch
of lobbyists. I want to talk to him. I want
to talk to the ESPN CEO, and I don't want
to talk about woes. I want to talk about China
and the NBA and ESPN coverage and their responsibilities. And
(47:42):
I hope they'll say, yes, what what have you heard
of anything from the NBA, Disney and ESPN so far?
Is it so far just been corporate pr stooges trying
to spend you or what sort of response It's obviously
only been a day, But what sort of response have
you gotten so far? Yeah, it's it's been just to
know what was was a he he was out of line.
(48:03):
I think they put out a statement, the ESPN put
out the state yesterday afternoon sort of you know how
he this was. He was, he was a very bad
boy and shouldn't have talked that way, and we'll take
care of it, he said. I think you know that
that apologies are are cheap, and they don't do anything.
You know, Let's let's let's get to the action, you know,
let's let's get to the actually doing something about the
(48:24):
real issue. And that's why I say, I haven't you know,
I haven't heard anything substantive from anybody. So I don't
want them trotting out their employees for apologies. I want
to see them actually standing up and asking the tough questions.
And I'd like some answers from the NBA. Let's not
let them off the hook, you know. I mean, ESPN
here has inserted themselves into the story, but expose themselves really,
(48:47):
But you know, the n B A I expect a
response from Silver. I'm awaiting a response for Silver. I'd
heard zero from him or from the league, and I'd
like some answers to my questions. And when I get
those answers, I'm gonna let people know. If I don't
get answers, I'm gonna let them know that. So I
expect to hear from the NBA. And UH, I also
(49:07):
am looking forward to sitting down with the ESPN CEO,
and I hope that takes place in we're talking to
Missouri Senator Josh Holley. I want to finish up here.
You're a sports fan. I'm a sports fan. Almost everybody
listening to us right now as a sports fan. Uh.
The decision by sports leagues to decide to embrace politics,
and let's be honest, one side of politics. Uh, we're
(49:30):
not talking about, like you said, very very sort of
unify unifying things like it's one thing if you want
to combat cancer, or if you want to say, hey,
we're trying to raise money for the troops, things that
nine point nine percent probably even larger than that of
Americans would agree on. Now we're talking about taking sides
in social issues and not just taking sides having corporate
(49:53):
speak pick sides. Why is that bad for sports fans? Well,
I mean it just is something becomes something else that
divide the sports then instead of something that unites us,
it becomes another way that we're divided as Americans and
I you know, we've seen this, this attitude from the
corporate the c suite class, the corporate class here now
(50:16):
for really the number of years, and it's getting worse
and worse, where they increasingly look down on so much
of America, the same people whose jobs that they're perfectly
willing to ship out overseas and and say, you know,
good luck to you, but we're going to make a
quick buck by moving to China, moving to you know,
pick your country. And it's that kind of attitude that's
(50:37):
infected the c suite and I think you're seeing that
now in fact the sports corporate world as well. And
it's just it's a contempt for a lot of their
fans and for a lot of this country. And it
just turned sports into another partisan battleground and into another
way where some of America looks down on the rest
of America. And you know, for for me, for you,
(50:58):
I mean growing up loving sports, playing sports, that's something
that historically has brought this country together. It's where we've
celebrated the things that we love together and that united Americans.
That's part of the promise of sports. And uh, I
hate to see that promise broken. And betrayed. Last question,
I appreciate all the time. I know how busy you are.
(51:19):
Missouri Senator Josh Holli. You can go follow him on Twitter. Uh.
He's been doing fantastic work here holding what I would say,
the sports leagues accountable for many of their hypocrisies. Broad
question here, some people say, okay, why does this matter?
Um In terms of using the NBA as a prism
and Disney and ESPN as a prism through which to
(51:39):
view Chinese American relations, Here's what I would say, and
then I want you to try to sum it up
as well. What I would say people out there listening
is there's a difference between someone saying, hey, we're we
want our laws to apply in our region. Right. So
it's one thing for for China to say, hey, you
need to change that movie, Hollywood in order to have
(52:02):
this movie air in China, and for American companies to
make changes. It's another thing entirely for China to do
what I believe they are doing now, which is saying
we expect for Chinese rule of law to govern other
places as well as well, which is what they said
to the n B. A fired Darryl Moray, the First
(52:23):
Amendment doesn't apply when you're dealing with China because there
are no First Amendment rights here. And what I am
seeing and I think Hong Kong is a metaphor. Taiwan
could be, the South China Sea could be as well.
It is a metaphor of China's attempts to take over
the world of global thought. With what they are doing
to the m b A, they are trying to do
(52:44):
to the rest of the globe. And so it's important
for Americans to understand that their own sports are trying
to be co opted by a Chinese communist authoritarian government.
That is my philosophy on why this matters in such
a big way. Would you agree, how would you expound
upon that idea? I think you're right. I mean, it's
it's about imperialism. It's about Chinese imperialism, the Communist Party,
(53:07):
and the Chinese Communist Party isn't forget people of China
have no say in any of this, you know, and
they are held under the thumb of the small group
of thugs. But it's about them trying to impose their
authoritarian ideology on all the rest of us. And you're
really you're right, clave They're not content just to do
that within the bounds of China. They are trying to
(53:30):
reach into our own country, to our athletes, to our markets. Uh,
They're they're trying to to to reach into the the
average everyday America. I mean, this is the same government.
Let's not forget Chinese government that also hacked all of
our information in the in the Equifax briek from a
couple brief from a couple of years ago. All these
folks who had their personal information stolen, who was behind
(53:52):
that China was? China is actively trying to spy on
everyday normal Americans all over the country, every second of
the day, every day of the week, and they're trying
to impose their values on us. And this is why
I come back to, you know, for American companies, what's
wrong with being proud of being American Number one? I mean,
(54:13):
what's what's okay? So NBA, I get it, you do
business all over the world, you're a global brand. Fine,
but what what's wrong with being proud of being an
American and saying, listen, we're at least going to take
a stand for the things that all Americans agree on,
and all Americans agree on the right to freedom of speech,
and we're going to take a stand for that, which,
by the way, you can't put on a jersey. Freedom
(54:35):
of speech not permitted to be on an NBA jersey.
First Amendment not permitted to be on an NBA Jersey.
And when the Chinese government comes then to us as Americans,
and comes to this country and says, no, you can't
talk about this, that and the other. You can't talk
about your American principles in your own country without threat
(54:56):
of censorship from China, we have a problem. And that's
why I just think it's not it doesn't take a
lot of courage here, by the way, for these corporations
and for NBA Corporate to actually say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
We're drawing the line right there. We're not going to
let you tell us what do because Clay's thing is
it's only gonna get worse. You know, if NBA Corporate
thinks that vowing the need of China is on these
(55:17):
issues is going to stand them in good stead. If
they think, you know, the use silver space, that we
have mutual respect, they are dead wrong. China is going
to continue to tighten the screws. They're going to continue
to hold hostage corporations who won't do what they want
them to do. And I just think that, you know,
the American people deserve to actually have uh, they're these
(55:38):
these corporations take a stand and say, you know, we're
not We're not afraid to be American and we're not
We're not afraid to stand up for America. Amen, keep
fighting the good fight, Senator. Go follow Senator Josh Holly
on Twitter this podcast if you enjoy its, share with
your friends. We need to get you on again sometime
soon because I want to dive into a lot of
these issues that I agree with you on about the
(55:59):
tech companies and the way that China and other foreign
interests are manipulating American opinion. Uh, I think frankly illegally,
but also surreptitiously through our social media platforms, which I
know you've been a big investigator and proponent of spending
more time on that as well. Thank you for all
the time. Thank you for the good work, Senator, and
please keep us updated on what the NBA, what ESPN,
(56:23):
and what what certainly Disney says about your request for information.
You bet Clay. Thanks for having me. That is Missouri
Senator Josh Holly. I'm Clay Travis has been the Wins
and Losses podcast. Thanks for listening, Go listen and subscribe.
You're gonna love these conversations and always listen to out
kick the coverage on Fox Sports Radio and read out
(56:45):
kick dot com
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