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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, welcome into All Ball. I'm Doug Gottlink. Thanks so
much for uh making this a part of your podcast
listening day or podcast listening week. We're gonna get you
ready for the NBA Draft, which of course is this
Thursday night. And you can follow me on Twitter as
well as I'll be posting some things on Instagram and
(00:25):
on Facebook. I've gotten a chance to talk to a
bunch of NBA people and um talk to some agents
as well, some coaches, some front office people, all of
whom have given me a variety of uh perspectives on
what we can expect to see this Thursday. You know,
it's interesting because there are some people that believe this
(00:46):
is just gonna be an okay draft. If you look
back at last year, I'm not sure there was a
ton of hype at the top of the draft that
matched the hype at the top of this year's draft.
I actually think this is a pretty darn good draft.
We should have a bevy of starters, bevy of rotation players,
and then some intriguing prospects that could be very much
(01:07):
hit or very much miss um. And look, I I
think there's a lot of different topics talking topics but
here to me are the three. Most interesting one is
do you pass on DeAndre Ayton at number one or
even in the top two or three, Not because you
don't have him as that highly rated a prospect, but
(01:30):
because he plays a position to which um is kind
of being eliminated. It's not that the center position is
being eliminated, but the type of center that that he
is is being marginalized in anyways. Now he's mobile, he
can shoot the basketball. Um. It's not that he is
(01:50):
terrible defensively, but he's not a game changer defensively, either
latterly defending on switches or at the rim. So with
that in mind, he's he's more of a additional big
guy in an era in which the traditional big guys
going the way of the Dodo. There's also the other
issue that you're going to run into, which is what
did we actually see him against a right think about
(02:12):
it for a second. We saw him again as he
was Daniel Monte. I mean, I love and respect him
for Scilla from ESPN who's covered the draft for a
long time, and he's like, look I saw him against
Arizona State, Dude, Arizona State has no big guys. They
played small ball. Of course he looked he looked like
Billy Madison playing dodgeball. That's what it looked like. He's
(02:34):
a man among boys. So we'll get back to that.
We have some gas, they'll join us, we'll have that conversation.
I do want to have the conversation about about Trey
Young and whether or not he's closer to Steph Curry
or closer to Jim or for debt and what we
can expect from a guy who had an incredible year.
(02:54):
And you can sit there and pick apart his shooting
percentages are awful from February one on. They were his
team got worse, didn't get better. That's that's accurate. But
he did in fact lead the country and scoring an
assist as a freshman. And it's really really hard to
get what what's the right perception of him? What's the
right view of him. We'll get to that um, but
(03:16):
here's the one I want to get to. And Jeff Goodman,
who just left ESPN, is going to satellite. We talked
a little bit on his podcast. We'll talk a little
bit more here on mine, which is we have created
we have created a generation of of cyborg basketball players.
That's the best word I can think of to describe
(03:37):
some of these guys. Cyborg basketball players. Um a cyborg
is uh is where you're both organic and biometric in
body parts. I mean that in that these guys are
not real human beings. I'm not sure if you saw
or read or heard the comments from DeAndre Ayton, who
(03:58):
was probably gonna be the the number one of all pick
in which he said that he has these three kind
of alternative personalities that he uses any time he doesn't
want to do an interview. You know, one's name is Eric,
I can't remember. The other two's name doesn't really matter.
The point is this that that's actually something he uttered.
He was asked about why he signed with Puma, and
(04:21):
he basically said it was a business decision. You know,
he didn't say anything about the quality of the shoes
or about the look of it. And it doesn't mean
that it's not true. It's just like the interview thing.
It doesn't mean that it's not true that you don't
try and go to a different place and try and
be a different person because you get tired of doing interviews.
It's just who in their right mind would say that.
(04:41):
And the answer is guys that don't have real emotional
intelligence and don't understand how the world's gonna take them.
And look, I I will blame some of this on
the system. And by system, I don't mean the n
c A, that's what most of you blame it on.
I mean the system of he comes over with his
family from the Baha Alma's and he ends up leaving
(05:02):
his family home and he's basically like a like a
foster child, only his parents still wanted him. But he's
basketball vagabond, bouncing from home to home in order to
play uh for fake high schools. And then he's reunited
with his family, but by then you know he he was.
(05:23):
He was just in the business of playing basketball. Like
he's not a he was never a kid. He was
never allowed to just be a kid. He was never
allowed to kind of succeed or fail. He's never allowed
to go to regular high school. Like these things do
work for people. We do realize that it's it's okay
for a seven foot tall freak athlete who's gonna play
(05:45):
in the NBA to just play in a regular high
school team, Like it's okay, And you might say to yourself, yeah,
but then they'll play two three and they'll hang like, okay, fine,
he might not win every game. Anthony Davis, by the way,
for people who don't know, played out one of the
worst school teams in recent memory. Anthony Davis Now, he
grew late, but it also allowed him to kind of
(06:06):
explore and his game as his body kind of developed.
I just or then you look at Michael Porter Jr.
Who said he's somewhere around Janice as a player. He
feels like he's more like Tracy McGrady. And if you
talk to NBA people, they'll all tell you, like, I
just I don't like him. I don't like him. It's
(06:28):
not that he's a bad kid, like gangbanger, he doesn't
do drugs. Um. It sound an issue like that. He
just unlikable, hasn't been coached, kind of elite, elitist, arrogant um.
You know, he thinks his ship doesn't stink. And he's
never dudes played two college basketball games two ever in
(06:50):
his life. And I guess maybe that's where the comparison comes.
When when he's talking himself up and he's discussing how
great he is in comparison to Tracy McGrady, who of course,
Tracy McGrady never played in college. I guess um, it's
just a weird thing to say. It's just the idea
(07:13):
that you would have no real understanding of how how
you would be taken, how how people would feel when
you would say this, Like, it's just not that hard
to be coached to say when somebody asks you who
you're like, I would love someday, Well, I would love
someday to be like Tracy McGrady. That's what I'd like someday.
(07:34):
That's who in my game. Or I'd love to be
a mix of t If I work hard enough, maybe
one day I could be like a Janice, like a
Tracy McGrady, somewhere in between the two. This is a
basketball player, Michael Porter Jr. Who played in three games
three three his entire career. He scored thirty points in
(07:55):
college basketball. He's ten of thirty from the field, seven
of twenty, three of ten from three point range, seven
and nine from you get the point. He had one
assist in three games. I'm not gonna make any statement
about who he is or what he is. All I'm
gonna tell you is, please don't say you're Jannie or
Tracey like, I don't think Trace McGrady belongs in the
(08:17):
Hall of Fame because until he was, you know, over
the hill and the last guy in the bench, he
couldn't make it out of the first round of the playoffs.
That said, you're comparing yourself to a Hall of Famer
and Janice is an m VP candidate. You've played fifty
three minutes of college basketball. And the reason that Michael
(08:40):
Porter Jr. In in in completely different fashion, completely different
fashion from Deandret and Michael Porter Jr's dad was a
coach on the women's team at Missouri, very tight knit family,
very Christian family, very protected family, and basically they wrapped
him in a bubble so that he wasn't ever around
the old world. And that's that what happened with Trey Young.
(09:04):
And like Trey Young was asking the Dan Patrick Show
if you could think of of any better shooters and
he said maybe Clay and Staph Like what who says
these things? And and I if you're downloading this podcast,
you're probably not that guy. But you might be. You
might think, got leeb, you're turning in to get off
my long guy. No I'm not. I'm telling you you
(09:26):
walk into an NBA locker room and you say that
ship and they're gonna laugh in your face. They just are.
They're gonna sit there and go, Okay, well, how come
you shot from three from February on? You? How come
your team started losing? And you know, you guys are
we're falling and you can't get up. I've been a
(09:48):
tray I was a Trey Young defender before he got
to Oklahoma. But dude, they went eighteen and fourteen. Go
back and look at at what happened to his squad,
you know, I mean, hell, even if you go from
the new year on, this is a great little exercise here, right,
you go from January three, January three to the end
(10:12):
of the season. Do you want to notice? And that
January three was his first game, that's when he took
I think it's thirty eight shots against Oklahoma State. If
you look at Trey Young's numbers after February one, his
team won two games, two both at home Kansas State
Iowa State. This is what he did over the last
(10:34):
eleven games of the season. He shot thirty six percent
from the field from three point range. He had seventy
nine assists and fifty six turnovers like, look, I like
Trey Young. He was way better, way earlier than anyone
(10:54):
could have hoped. But who has the balls to go
on Dan Patrick show and say, you know, listen, uh,
Steph and Claire the only two guys who can hold
my jock as a shooter, Like I want you want
your kid to be confident. You don't want your kids
to be arrogant. And even if it wasn't, it wasn't
tongue planted firmly in cheek, even if you're just kind
(11:14):
of living up to the moment, like, hey, this is
what guys do. They talk about themselves. They brag about themselves.
The inability to relate to everyone else in the world
and how everyone else is going to take that is
kind of what's missing Trey Young. His dad, Ray Young,
I played against him, was a very good player of
Texas Tech, and Trey has been his entire life has
(11:36):
been kind of molded for this destination that he could
play in the NBA, that he could be a one
and done. And I guess they're right right, Like they
didn't want him. You know, he didn't go to Kentucky
because cal Parry wasn't sure he was a one and done,
and Kansas wasn't sure. You know, they had Davonte Graham,
they had other players. He would play, but he probably
(11:58):
wouldn't get the opportunity to put up the numbers that
he put up at KU And so I guess he's
right and we're all wrong. On the other hand, we've
created this system to which guys aren't dealing with They're
not dealing with the realities of life, like you're going
to struggle. It's going to be really, really hard. Those
(12:22):
are the there's four players in the NBA, there's basically
like three NBA players. The rest of the guys that
got a rotate around or whatever call up called out
two way guys and anyway. But even if it's four
d four fifty jobs, they're all coming at you, just
like they all came at Lonzo Ball. And look, Lonzo
Ball shot great, shot, very good percentages in college, terrible
(12:45):
in the pros. His team accomplished more than Trey Young's did,
and his run wasn't easy. The point is we've created
this environment to which, um, these guys have a completely
unreal sense of who they are. That's why let's get
back to DeAndre et do I think Eytan's good. Yeah,
do I think he's a man child, of course. But
(13:05):
I also realized, tell me who the NBA players, the
NBA bodies he's going against our It is men against boys.
If you are big, you're gone. There aren't big There
aren't old big guys in college basketball that are good
at all. If you're any good, you're at mobile at all.
You know, there's the Isaac hass the Isaac Hasta of
(13:26):
the world. There's a four year player. I guess the
point is that if we're comparing DeAndre Ayton and what
he did, you look at how he struggled against Buffalo. Right,
he struggled against Buffalo because Buffalo played small ball. So look,
I want to get to the deandreat In conversation, the
Trey Young conversation to that in a second. But the
first thing is that maybe the most important thing is
(13:47):
we've created these cyboards. They look like humans, they feel
like humans, They played basketball like superhumans, but they are
not human beings. Whether it's Deandreatan bouncing from house to
house to house after coming over from the Bahamas, or
it's Trey Young and Michael Porter raised by great families
who meant well, but an effort to shelter them from
(14:07):
the ills of the world created. All they do is
play basketball and post on social media and talk about
how great they are. Because on social media, people either
talk about how great they are or they take shots.
They try and take shots at them, and those guys
become haters. And that's It's a fascinating world in which
we live in in the in basketball because football just
(14:30):
for the most part, doesn't have that. There's a certain
grit and toughness and you have to have shown it.
You play three years in in in college and so
your flaws get exposed. I thought, for sure, no person,
no person could make Josh rosen Uh look humble. And
then I read the comments of Michael Porter Jr. Comparing
(14:51):
himself to a Hall of Famer and a future Hall
of Famer, one of the top players in the NBA,
and Janison saying he thinks he's a little bit better
right now, seeing as he's played eighty three minutes in
college basketball fifty three minutes whatever the hell was. Yeah,
that's that's cart a little bit ahead of horse. I
am excited about the NBA draft. I have written a
column which you may see up on the athletic Let
(15:13):
me kind of give you the basis of it. It's
I would take this guy over that guy. I would
pick this over that. I would take Colin Sexton over
Trey Young. And he might say, yourself, you're handing on
Trey Young again. No, um doesn't have great practice habits,
not not a leader that people get behind or as
(15:35):
Colin Sexton is, and does I do think those things matter.
Colin Sexton can already guard his position, is tough enough
to guard bigger players. That's huge in the NBA, where
switching everything or switching one through four is the norm,
not the exception, and whereas it's hard to hide a
Tray Young. And you're left with two different decisions if
you have Tree Young. One is to give him the ball,
(15:56):
give him a high ball screen, spread him out, and
let him just go. What are you gonna have? You're
gonna have some nights where he's outstanding. You're also gonna
have some really high turnover nights and some really bad
shot nights, and the numbers will skew in his favor
because like, look, dude, if you put a guy into
eight pick and rolls, he's gonna get some pretty good numbers.
Either he's gonna hit shots with somebody else's, but will
you win that way? I talked to an NBA coach
(16:18):
who said, whoever drafts Tree Young is going to get fired. Now,
you could say that about a lot of guys, but
the point was, you draft him a little bit higher
than you want to because you're trying to not miss
on the next Steph Curry, even if he's not Steph Curry.
And the downside to that is you're gonna play him
earlier and give him more opportunities than he probably deserves
earlier because of how high a draft pick he is
(16:39):
and how much of a following he has. What happened
with Johnny Manzel, what happened with jimmerfer debt. We focus
on Steph Curry because his game does look in many
ways like a freshman college Oklahoma version of Steph Curry,
but there isn't the leadership quality member. Steph played more
(17:02):
off the basketball even in his first couple of years,
not just because of injury. It should be noted I
was told by several members of the Warriors front office
at the time when they made the trade UH, when
they trade away Monte Ellis to get back, Andrew Bogan returned.
Steph Curry and Monte Ellis were offered pick one or
the other. The Bucks chose monte Ellis. So not only
(17:25):
did the Bucks not know, the Warriors didn't know, things
came together and became a two time m v P.
B less not act like we all saw this coming.
I definitely didn't. But even if you did see it
coming and you liked him, he was a better leader. Uh.
He competed more at the defensive end. Trey Young is
a very good pastor. I would say Steph. Steph didn't
(17:46):
show us as much passing until his junior year when
he did play some point um. And I think that
Trey Young is growing into his body. He'll be a
better athlete. And neither are great athletes. But I do
think that Steff was a little bit more bouncy. Trey
hasn't had any injuries, and Steff had early injuries. I
(18:07):
just think you're gonna give this kid the ball because
you're gonna overdraft him and he's gonna struggle. And we
talked with Steve Clifford, who is the head coach of
the Orlando Magic, probably gonna have Trey Young that looks
like a destination for him. They need a point guard.
They also need a reason to fill up that new arena.
The problem with that is Steve Clifford has even said, hey,
(18:27):
guys in the Pros to give up night. Those are
They're really really hard to win with. Right, here's another one.
Some people like Troy Brown orreas. I like Chandler Hutchinson.
Troy Brown super hyped on paper, super talented, and maybe
maybe he's like Jalen Brown no relation where Jalen Brown
didn't shoot a good percentage of cow but became a
(18:48):
viable three point weapon the Pros. And Troy Brown's only
eighteen years only turns nineteen this summer. But I look
at Chandla Hutchinson, who's only he's twenty two years old.
He's more refined in the switch happy end a. He
can guard multiple positions. And no, he'll never be the
ball handler Troy Brown is, but he's a really good
three and D guy. He can hit threes at a
much higher clip than Troy Brown can, and he can
(19:10):
play D at a much higher level than Troy Brown can.
Instead of living on au reputation, I would draft Chandler
Hutchinson because during his rookie contract, you'll get more out
of him than you will Troy Brown. Here's one. I'd
take Aaron Holiday ahead of Jalen Brunson. Both are both
are gonna be backup point guards in the NBA. Jalen
Brunson is a better basketball player, he leads a little
(19:34):
bit better, he makes more shots. It's a sounder passer.
He's a smarter player. And Aaron Holiday is tougher, more athletic,
and a better fit as a backup guard in the NBA.
Both of course have NBA d n a um. Jalen's
dad was a long time Rick was a long time
backup in the league. And if this you could back
(19:54):
dudes down and score in the midpost, in the midpost
and score on pull ups, you take Jalen Brunson a heartbeat.
But because it's two thousand eighteen, where you get is
so and you have to have lateral foot quickness and
you can't touch anybody. I like, I take Aaron Holiday
ahead of Jalen Brunson. Um, I would take Grayson Allen
I had of Dante de Vincenzo. You know, Dante de
Vincenzo is kind of the newer version of Grace Allen
(20:18):
and Grace Down isn't his bouncy's he used to be,
but he's still pretty bouncy. He makes shots. He's a
much better ball handler than Dante de Vincenzo. Uh And
though DiVincenzo is an excellent defender, I think Grace Now
it would be a pretty good defender. Both will struggle
against bigger, longer dudes. DiVincenzo tough, probably a little tougher
than Grace nown but Grace now it is far from soft.
(20:39):
I would actually take Grace Now and a head of
Donte DiVincenzo because I think he's a far more refined
offensive player, saying as he was the guy at Duke
and then he had to fit in with a group
at Duke, whereas DiVincenzo came off the bench and listen,
you just had a chance to just go get buckets
and not have to think about running a team. DiVincenzo
is not a point guard, not close, but at least
when um Grace now and did play point it wasn't
(21:01):
the disaster that the times Donte DiVincenzo was. And again,
like Donte DiVincenzo, glad he's staying in the draft. I
think he's going to stick in the NBA for a
long time. I just have both eyes open. And then
the last one and the pick this not that is
DeAndre and I would take Marvin Bagley over DeAndre Ayton.
Show me the big center. I guess it's Joel Embiid,
(21:24):
But Joel embiads a much better all around athlete out
in the court. Um And remember Embiad's perimeter game took
years to develop, and that development began when he had
the first really two years off of his NBA journey.
That's not what's gonna happen with DeAndre Ayton. He won't
have the time to develop until probably his first off season. Bagley,
(21:44):
at worst, maybe not worst, at I would expect him
to be a Cris Bosh type. I do thinking, hand
the ball a lot better and be involved a lot
more on the perimeter, handling the basketball, passing the basketball,
getting his own shot, get into some io's the pros
that he was when he played a duke. Marvin baglews
supposed to be be the number one pick for the season.
Maybe this is a confirmation bias, and that's why I'm
(22:06):
going with him ahead of DeAndre. No more. It's just
I've watched an f n B A and I see
the paucity of legit back to the basket players, and
I'm like that Deandreatan things sounds great when you're at Arizona.
It doesn't sound great when you get to the pros.
And the pros you gotta play face. You got the basket,
and you have to be a better rim protective. He
just doesn't predict the rim all that one two thousand thirteen,
two thousand fourteen Indiana Pacers had I mean they look,
(22:31):
they had a shot. They had an absolute shot at
the Miami Heat. And the roster composition is is and
the role allocation is so different, so different. They finished
first in the NBA's Central Division. They lost in Game
(22:52):
six to the Miami Heat. They beat the Hawks and
seven to beat the Wizards in six. And this is
a team that remember that was before Paul George broke
his leg. Paul George's only twenty three. They had Land
Stevenson that has been Land sevens and George Hill, David West,
Roy Hibbert a good team. But watch the NBA playoffs
(23:15):
now and you're like, wait, whatever happened to Roy Hibbert?
Not in the league David West, and I grant you
David West at thirty seven years old. You know, nobody
at thirty seven years old is going to be nearly
what they were at thirty three years old. But he's
also he's not a traditional but he was a too
early two thousand's, late nineties power forward. And you can
(23:37):
score some of the post. He's very good on pick
and pop, but on what's called a short role, you know,
like an eighteen foot I mean that just that keyhole
jump shot he would make time and again, and Hibbert's
out of the league. West and maybe or guys like
West are now either shooting threes or they're out of
the league. Kind of fascinating how this thing has changed.
(23:58):
Nobody knows it better than Frank Local course, longtime coach
in the NBA, kind of to spend some time this
year on Fox Sports Radio. Um, when was the moment
that that the shark was that the shark jumped that
all of a sudden, like a guy like Roy Hibbert
couldn't play in this league? Was it was it those
final series where they would go where where they would
(24:19):
go small against you guys, and he had no one
he could guard well, I definitely think that contributed to it.
You know, I don't know if there was it was
one moment, but um, you know, we have the number
one defense in the league two years in a row.
Roy was the centerpiece of that, and um, you know,
a couple of different playoffs series uh sort of I
don't want to say exposed Roy, but made it difficult
(24:41):
for us to have him out. There was the Atlanta
series where they played the point to the points tutors,
and then each of those Miami series ultimately ended ended
in Chris Boss playing the five. And you know, obviously
they were able to prevail. Um. You know a lot
of a lot of different teams, uh began doing it, uh,
you know, in small stretches and then obviously going to
state uh and went to their death line up, and
(25:04):
you know everybody copied them from there. So you know,
I think it was a gradual evolution and you know,
certainly change the way the games played today. Okay, So
I guess here's the question. You've been this game essentially
the entire professional life, right, worked your way up become
the head coach of the Pacers, head coach the Magic
Frank Vocal our guest on the Doug Gotlip Show. I was.
(25:24):
I was hanging out with an Eastern Conference head coach
last week and he was telling me, like, look, it's
not coming back, like the big guy who posts up,
it's just not coming not coming back. He's like, we were,
we were holding out hope because they have a center
that they're probably gonna part ways with that when we
call for the ball, they're like, we tracked. It's a
shot for our big guy to scoring the low post.
He's pretty good, and they're not going to change the
(25:46):
way they officiate. So it's a very physical game down there.
It makes it inefficient. But then I look, and you
got Carl Town's, you got um, you know Joel Embiid,
you got DeMarcus Cousins, you got DeAndre and come in
the league. They do have really good big guys. Do
you think it ever comes back in vogue that you
can use a true center. Well, yeah, I don't think
(26:09):
it's ever gonna come back to the way it was.
You know, to me, it's it's really about playing with
two bigs. Is where the game has changed over the
last you know, plub of six years, more so than
the true center. You know, I still think there's a
place for post offense, and you see that throughout throughout
the playoffs. You do see the balling and going to
the post, whether it's a wing player like le Lebron
(26:31):
or uh you watch the L and B play Um
Cousins you mentioned, even even you know, trying to get
Kevin Love and out Horford involved down low. You know,
as you watch an Eastern Conference playoffs, you know it's
it's it's it's always going to be a part of
the game. But it's not. It's not gonna go back
to the way it was where you know you're seeing
you know, the the eighties where alas Juan and and
uh Duncan are getting the ball down low twenty thirty times.
(26:54):
Tonight it's just not as efficient. Not as efficient offense
is you know, playing the play pick and roll game
and striving for for open lafts and open threes. Frank Vogar,
I guess DeAndre Ayton is getting ready to likely be
the number one overall pick and some of it is
out of need. Right you look at at the void
with the Phoenix suns is they don't have a true center.
(27:16):
But how do you this is like in football, do
you take a running back that early in the draft,
like Sae Kwon Barkley who fits that kind of the
classic running back. But you can get a running back
and be fine later on in the draft. You can
Clint Capella can be a great role man and can
switch defensively, and you can get a Clint Capella later
on the draft. How do you evaluate a player like
(27:37):
Eton who can face up doves, has some majority, but
he's not a great shop blocker and he's not really
like a roll to the rim big guy. How do
you evaluate how effective he can be? And if you
use your number one pick on him, no, you gotta
you got gas and all those things. You know, how
good of a defender is he gonna be? Is he
gonna be down that like Ludi Colbert in today's game?
(27:58):
Is he is? He's just going to be ava? Is he? Um?
Is he gonna be extraordinary as as a lobst rolling
to the basket? Uh? Is he going to be a
short roll guy who is getting catching the ball in
the pocket or is he going to be a most
effective getting the ball in a in a low post?
And you know all those things you know you measure
on a on a one a ten scale, and um,
(28:19):
you know it takes the totality of it and and
you know then obviously affector and all the things like
i Q and rod and and all those things to
see what kind of player are you just gonna get?
Frank Volgar I guess on the Doug Gottlip Show, how
difficult is the task of coaching and managing egos? Knowing
that these guys like they've gotten smart with free agency
(28:40):
and they're taking short deals and they're talking and texting
behind everybody's back about kind of joining up and joining forces.
How did putting the team together? Yeah, this managing the egos,
you know, it's it's uh, it's just part of the game,
you know, the way it is when when free asments
come around. Um, and even you know, guys that our
creat it's yet but are going to be freed and
(29:02):
as they can kind of talk their way out of situations. Um.
You know, That's why I really believe that I've always
had the mindset that you want to partner up with
your guys, you want to make them, uh, you know,
as happy as as as possible, and and you know
a lot of that involves, Um, you know, are we
being pushed here, you know, with with whatever team that
(29:22):
player is on, and um, you want to make sure
that your situation, uh is clear to each player that
that this is the best situation for them and they
don't need to be looking elsewhere. Um. You you also
took on a completely different challenge in Orlando right where
it was a complete rebuild and you're trying to you
like your your your torn right because you're better off
(29:45):
if for the franchise if you lose. On the other hand,
for you and your job security, you gotta win and
be competitive. Um, if you could do it all over again,
would you do it all over again? You obviously, you
know you look at little things you can do differently.
But you know, we we we absolutely had a long
(30:06):
type of approaches there. Um a unique situation for me
because our front office, our front office team staff the
year one and um, you know you just posted the
team that this is going to be there forever. You know,
That's that's the mindset I've always had. You know, it's
not about you know, scooping up a couple of us
to win here and there to you know, quote unquote
pad your stats or whatever it makes yourself look good
(30:27):
in terms of how many wins you have and um,
you know, but you have to do what's what's an
investments of a franchise, you know, and and operate them
the assumption and you're gonna be there a long term.
You you had until he was traded. You had Alfred Payton,
who was really talented guard, but he really he struggled
to shoot right and I and I had Steve clifford
(30:47):
On who obviously took the Orlando job, and we talked
about we didn't talk about Trey Young per se. But
there's the balance of you really need shooting. You really
need to be able to shoot the basketball in today's
NBA unless you know, unless you're some Rereek like Janice
you know, who can get to the basket or or
Ben Simmons, and even that something gets exposed in the NBA.
But the point guard position, you really need to shoot.
On the other hand, you know the way people play
(31:10):
defensively now everybody's switching defensively, you also need to guard.
How how should we evaluate players coming in the league
And the importance of shooting is opposed to the importance
of defense in into who should be, for example, a
point guard for a team that's trying to rebuild. Well,
I think uh, shooting is is more of a pretium
(31:30):
now than it's ever been. And it's not just the
point guard position. I think I think every perimeter position
uh has has to have you know, uh, the ability
to shoot the basketball or we respect it out there. Um,
and then in most cases the center position does as well.
It's it's really across the board, not just not just
the point guard position. So you know, I think there's uh,
(31:51):
you know, if you're not a great shooter, you've got
to be um, you've got to excel in other areas.
You know, that's clear and um, you know, I think
that's what everybody's looking at with all these these players
coming into the draft. And then as in terms of
the defensive end, it is a switching world out there.
So um, you know, your competitive spirit, your fight, it's
not just always about your size and athleticism, but you know, uh,
(32:13):
you know what's your i Q? Like you know when
you're gonna switch, are you gonna be those guys like
Andre Miller and and uh you know, Jared w and
not almost athleticos, but they're savvy enough to not get
beating switches and Um, you know, you just have to
evaluate all all those types of things. It's not just
about your law athleticism, but switchability defensively and pretty point
(32:34):
shooting are obviously big premiums and what everybody's taking for
in the year's draft. Well, Frank, everybody knows you can coach.
I'm sure you'll be back coaching very very soon. If not,
we're just gonna keep plucking your knowledge because it's it's great. Um,
it's it's it's so far above that of of us,
of the common man. Appreciate you joining us and we'll
talk soon. Thanks. Take care. You can follow them on
(32:56):
Twitter at r P three Not Natural. He's Rashot Phillips,
basketball analyst and draft guru. He joins us on the
Doug Gotlip Show on Fox Sports Radio. All right, so
I saw you on Colin Cowherd and you had Trey
Young as your number one prospect in the draft. Why yes, Um,
just because when you when you look at the dynamics
(33:18):
of the NBA game and the way that is evolved
in you have to have a dynamic type of point
guard in order to win games, and and Trey Young
epitomizes that. But he doesn't play any defense. There's a
lot of guys that don't play any defense in this draft.
Hold On, hold on, who doesn't Marvin Bagley is not
(33:43):
a great defender either. There's there's there's, there's, there's two
there's there's two types of guys though. Okay, there are
guys that don't give enough effort and could give more effort.
There are guys that don't have the speed and quickness
to it, and there are guys that try to stay away,
like he doesn't guard anybody. Anybody and his body his
(34:05):
body type is such to which I know he's added
some strength here and workouts. Yeah, but his boy type
says where he just gets ragged dulled by people, whereas
Badley is not great and needs to be better. But
let's be honest, at least he can put a body
on somebody. The same could be said for Dante. Yeah. Yeah,
but uh Trey is a lot like step Curry in
regards to his offense is his defense, so you have
(34:29):
you cannot ignore how great he is on the offensive
side of the floor because in the NBA, it's not
about ball stoppers. In the NBA, it's about excitement. It's
about hitting three pointers. Electrifying a crowd. That's where the
NBA is about. It's not about guys that can sit
down and play defense. Okay, So why why did he
struggle so much from February one on? Well, you have
(34:53):
to look at it from the standpoint where he was
the you know, the number one guy on the scouting report. Um,
Oklahoma wasn't really a good team, and they wore him
down a lot, a lot. So he tried to give
all he could on the offensive end, but and tried
to rest a little bit on deep on the defensive end,
and he got burnt a couple of times. And hopefully,
you know, he's learned from that. That's been about. That
(35:15):
was about five months ago. Hopefully he's learned from those mistakes. Um.
It seems like he's gotten bigger in the weight room. UM.
And now at the NBA game, he's not gonna have
that much responsibility UM as a as an offensive player,
So he's not gonna have to carry the weight and
the low of a whole team like he had to
do in college. Doug gotl Live Show Fox Sports trader
(35:36):
ras Sean Phillips joining us. Okay, so if you have him,
I mean, if you have him number one on your board,
that would make him the most underrated guy. So who
is the most overrated guy? Which guy makes you be
most queasy? If if you see his name taken early,
I would have to say Luca Donshes. I just kind
of I kind of cringed at that. I crammed at
(35:57):
it because here's a guy that hasn't proven anything. And
in American basketball, obviously he's fantastic and European play uh
and I respect what he's done as a European player,
But the NBA it's a totally different thing. Let's let's
think about football here, Doug, because you're a football guy.
Just like the CFL. A guy catches twenty touchdowns in
(36:18):
the CFL as a wide receiver and then he comes
to the NFL. Well, there's gonna be different defenders. There's
no Drell revis Is in the CFL. There's no Josh
Normans in the CFL. Luca Dong just has that same
type of transition that he has to get accustomed to
different defenders, smarter guys, taller, stronger and coming for a throat.
(36:38):
You know, it's it's it's interesting because I look, I've
played overseas. You did as well. We both know that that, Like, look,
there's a different set level of athletes, especially when you're
going against the European a European guy trying to guard you,
a different style of officiating. Yeah, we also have to
remember that college basketball isn't at the level of Europe
(36:59):
and it's actually a lower like It's like the the
DeAndre Ayten thing is he is he a freak? Yeah,
but he's also going against college bigs, and there are
no good college big so he's not going against anybody
who's a like talent. I I agree with that. I
have to agree that you know, Atan is a physical specimen. Um,
he's bigger than everybody, so he's gonna have an adjustment
(37:22):
as well. But again he has been accustomed to playing
over here in America, so his transition is not as
not as as deep as it's gonna be for Luca Doncheys.
I think Lucas gonna have more of a steeper learning curve.
Um been a guy like DeAndre Ayton Um. Our kids
in America bread to play at the NBA level. Um,
(37:43):
that's the way they're raised and with trade relatively, here's
his dad played at Texas Tech. So he's been around
that and he studied it since the kid. So you
gotta you gotta have you gotta respect that part of it.
Michael Porter Jr. Is a tough one, right. He has
a of offensive skill, but he had has had injuries,
(38:04):
he hadn't played much in college. And there's also something
that he has that a lot of people think that
Trey has, where there's this he hadn't really been coached
and he that they I mean, these guys come in thinking.
I mean, he was quote as saying like, I think
I'm more like Tracey McGrady, I go stronger, I'm tougher
around the basket than Kevin Durant. Is Like, you're not
comparing it that thing One day I want to be saying,
(38:26):
I rd am. A lot of his his arrogance rubbed
people the wrong way. What do you think of Michael
Porter Jr. When he what he'll be in the NBA.
I think I think his is really based on on
injury um in regards to have been confidence in himself.
I have no problem with that, but sometimes you know,
(38:46):
these are these are keys at the end of the day,
so sometimes, uh, they don't express themselves the way that
they should. Um. Like Aiden's comments about his Puma shoe.
I'm sure we can get into that later. But I
think Michael Porter if he if he can stay healthy, um,
I think he's gonna be a really good NBA player. Um,
but there's still a lot to improve on. And I
(39:09):
don't know if he can play eighty two games because
he couldn't play thirty college games. Yeah, it's it's a
it's a really hard one when you look at guys
getting getting dinged up. Although you did just say that
that Trey Young got worn down and you think he's
gonna play two games when he struggled, I understand it's
totally different than three games versus Um, you mentioned the
shoe things. So people are just joining us and they're
(39:30):
not you guys. Puma has signed Marvin Bagley and DeAndre
and and jay Z. Yeah, and you and your reaction
was what I just I don't. I think they're gonna
have a hard time because this generation of Keith and
in his story and his history tells us that we
don't really purchase post player shoes. So they there's gonna
(39:53):
be an uphill battle in regards to trying to sell
post player shoes two kids, because kids are the and
by shoes. I look, I don't think that. I don't
think they did it to sell shoes specifically, right, Like
very few guys their signature shoes actually make money. Pumas
just trying to get the skin in the game. You
get jay z z, is there is there big play.
(40:16):
They're gonna have the number one and probably number two
picks in the NBA draft, and even us talking about
it is wins for Puma, Like, man, they won't sell shoes, Yeah,
but we're talking about it, which considering Puma was never
a word of mouth. We haven't heard nobody's signed with
Puma since Vince Carter did. I actually think that's their win?
Is that? Is that a fair? Is that a fair statement?
(40:36):
I totally understand that. I was just thinking from a
shoe standpoint. If you know, you got kids, I got kids.
I'm not gonna take my kids to the store to
go buy uh, you know, some Beyandre eight and shoes
like I'm not gonna do that. Um, I'm gonna get
him some Kyrie Irvans or something like that. But from
that standpoint of of reconnecting with the culture, I think
(40:56):
it's a phenomenal idea to get those guys and get
Jay Z as an ambassador to come along, and I
think they will be going in the right direction in
that regard. The only thing I will I will say,
I'll say this, I agree with you in thought that
my kids wouldn't buy big guy's shoes. It's one of
the reasons that Lebron James, a lot of Lebron James
shoes have been a tougher sell because Lebron James is
(41:19):
a big dude. He's got to have big dude shoes.
But but remember, like if you go back, remember the
David Robinson pumps, I had those. Yeah, the Shack pumps,
I had those. The Shack pumps, I had those. So
I didn't buy the Shack l A gears. So there
were some big guys shoes that did sell. But David
Robinson kind of was more of a He was an
(41:40):
NBA scoring champ, you know, so he had a little
bit more gravitation because of what he accomplished in those shoes.
But just the traditional like Keim Duncan shoe, Like nobody's
taking their son to a foot locker and say, hey man,
let me get you the Tim Duncan. That's just not happening.
I know, I understand that says fair. It's also it's
(42:01):
Tim Duncan. He was incredibly, incredibly boy a great job
today on the Herd. Thanks so much for Jonas. Follow
him on Twitter. He's a shot. Phillips, thanks for joining us.
Thank you, Doug. You to man like always all right
in a tip for tat Uh. Yesterday we recorded his
first podcast. It's called Good and Plenty. He's Jeff Goodman
(42:22):
now of Stadium Sports, and he joins us here on
the All Ball Podcast. I have topics that I don't
know if you got to the rest of your On
the rest of your podcast, we talked a little bit
on yours about DeAndre Atan, the death of the death
of the modern day Center. Here's what I want to
get to, um Luca don Check. It feels to me
(42:45):
like we're massively underrating him massively and here's why overrating them.
Didn't we like, like because ESPN and and job Vin
Tivoni and Mike Schmidt's had him is like the number
one pick all year, so we started overrating and now
I think we are underrating him and people saying he's
the number four pick and picking apart his game and
he's he's not athletic. He's probably somewhere in between. Right, Well,
(43:10):
I guess, I guess. Look, there's a there's a question here, Okay,
there's there's a bunch of things that go into it. Um,
would you say, how competent a shooter do you think
he is? I mean, from what I've watched on film
and I've watched a ton is is he's pretty good.
I mean he's streaky, but his stout looks it looks nice.
I mean the releases, it looks good. I mean, he's
(43:33):
gonna make shots in the league, partially because he's already
pretty good shooter. He's young, and his work ethic is good,
and he's really confident, almost on the border of of
um cocky, which he's gonna need to be coming into
the NBA. Well, it's it's it's fascinating. I got into
a little bit of the confidence in the Arrogancet, the
Michael Porter Jr. And some of his most recent comments. Uh, well,
(43:55):
when we get to those, I think it's interesting though
that like we're not paying attention and off attention to
trends in the NBA. I talked to several people in
the NBA. The look, we ain't drafting anybody that can't shoot,
which is not you know, We're just not drafting like
we'll find if that's the big or if it's an
or if it's if it's a Janice, you know, if
(44:16):
it's a game changing ball handling, super long athletic. Uh,
maybe we can teach him how to shoot Ben Simmons type, right,
Like those guys, well, those guys are stars, and in
the only way those guys can be who you know,
reach their potential is if you space the floor and
put three point shooters. So it's interesting with the Don
(44:36):
Chick thing, where I I do think he's gonna be
a very good shoot in the NBA. I don't think
he may not ever be the best player on his team.
But I mean, considering it his age, winning a Euro
winning a La Liga as well, and being the best
player on that team and the kind of leader of
that team and dominant, that's that's pretty crazy that that
(44:59):
we're comparing him to, whether it's Michael Porter Jr. Who
played in three games, or DeAndre and who we all
considered to be a beast. But there are no good
centers in college basketball, and yeah, he was dominant, but
he got beat in the first round the n c
A Tournament. So I think it's a it's a really
hard comparison to make because the quality of competition is
so different, and he's so different than everybody else you've mentioned,
(45:23):
And that's why, like you said, you do have to
pay attention to the trends a little bit. I agree
with you. He's probably he's probably not capable of being
a number one guy on his team, but that's fine.
If he's the number four pick in Memphis and your
pair him with Connolly and you've obviously got to add
a couple more pieces. But he's the guy you can
build around, you know. To me, can he be a
Gordon Hayward type? That who? I think? I think. I
(45:46):
think it's a really good comp I think the Gordon
Hayward is a really good, really good, really good compu.
Gordon Hayward is a little bigger than he is, but
he can do everything, could pass, he could shoot, He
was Hayward's more athletic, but he just knew how to
play and did every thing well. Nothing elite, elite level,
but he's a great number two guy on a team. Alright,
(46:06):
how do how do NBA people view some of these
young guys and their comments? Tray Young earlier today, I
want to do something that's never been done. Dan Patrick
asked him if there's a better shooter out there. He
said maybe Stephan Clay, Michael Porter Jr. Comparing himself to
Janice and to Tea mac Um. Even Deandreton's made some
weird comments. Here's what I said. I said, like, look,
(46:29):
we we've almost concreated these cyboards. Right, they look like humans,
but they're clearly not human beings, right, they're not. They
they're not. They don't understand the idea that we want
you to, even if you're not humble, to appear to
be humble. Like when when Taylor Swift every time she
gets an award, every time she gets a Grammy, she
gets up there and she's like, oh my god, I
(46:52):
can't believe it. And that's how we want you to
at least purport yourself, especially when you're super young. How
do NBA people view these guys? I wish I could
play back the comment that Marquel Folds made to me
before he played a game at Washington a year and
a half ago. About a year, right, yeah, um, right,
(47:12):
about a year and out, two years ago, whatever it was.
And I asked him, I said, what are your you know,
what are your goals, what are your expectations whatever? He said,
to be the best player ever to play this game,
and he didn't played a game at Washington yet. And
I just kind of like was like, come on, man, like,
like you've you've proven nothing at this point. You got
a number one ranking because of what you did in
(47:33):
AU basketball. It means nothing. And I just wish some
of these kids would would would show the the humility
that I think we love Steph Curry for. He always
says the right things. Lebron, even for being the best
player in the planet. Lebron's pretty humble for the most part.
I mean, he gives credit where credits due. Obviously he
(47:55):
knows he's the best player in the on the planet,
and sometimes he can get carried away and across is
arrogant um. But I think these kids have proven nothing.
Lebron is the best player. You can make a case
one of the top three players. Ever, however you want
to put him one, two or three, It doesn't matter.
These guys haven't done anything yet. You know, it's it's
it's it's Also, remember when Lebron came out, it wasn't close.
(48:18):
Like we could get onto Lebron for saying, well, you know, man,
you you can say I wasn't supposed to be here,
but you had the chosen one tattooed across your back.
The difference is I was there for the two thousand
three draft. I watched him play in high school. I
watched him. It wasn't close. There was no one in
his stratosphere. So even if it felt like bragging at
(48:40):
the time, like you know what, it wasn't really bragging.
It was kind of a matter of fact. Whereas these
kids are super talented, there's really skilled, but there's there's
no separation between them and the rest of the world
the way there was with Lebron. So please stop liking
yourself to anybody of that ELK And oh, by the way,
Doug Michael Porter played what three games? Treyn lost the
lot of games last I checked and Deander eight and
(49:02):
got knocked out in the and by Buffalo and got pounded.
So like, I know what, you guys are capable of
your all talent, and I like all three of them.
His kids a lot, a lot. I know all three
pretty well. You're you're a hater. You're when you relay
what other NBA g ms tell you about Michael Porter Jr.
Rubbing them the wrong way. You're an It's amazing, isn't it,
(49:26):
Because again, all you're doing is saying, listen. I've been
called by numerous NBA guys since before Michael Porter got
hurt when he was practicing and they were wondering, what
the hell is going on with this kid? And I
was shocked when I first heard it, Dug. I was
because I've sat down with him numerous times. And when
they're telling me, like, who is this kid? You know
(49:47):
he he conducts himself like he's not a part of
the team and arrogant and all that, And I'm saying
to myself like, is this the same kid that I know? Um? Okay,
let let's get to the NBA Draft, which is up
coming on Thursday night. This is gonna drop on a
on Wednesday morning, so we'll get people ready for it.
Um you had you said, Luca don chick, Mike My
(50:09):
might fall all the way to fourth. Does that mean
Jaren Jackson goes third? Uh to the Atlanta Hawks, though, Yeah,
I think he's just got such high upside and and
and people see him as again like what you were saying,
the new age big right. I mean he can he
can step out and shoot threes. It's not pretty. I
think he's gonna get a lot of sounds blocked on
closeout shooting the three because he shoots a you know,
(50:30):
really low release point um and it doesn't have great rotation.
But again, if the get better, he'll get better on that.
He will, He'll get better. And he's really good defensively,
and he's super high character and he works and he's
humble and all that. So I think I think he's
gonna be a good NBA player. You know, I saw
somebody comparing me like Kevin Garnett today or yesterday, and
(50:53):
I'm like, come on again, listen, listen, let me let
me just let me let me explain something. Okay at
this and it's very and now now listen, Kevin Garnett
was also nineteen when you graduated high school, whereas Jaren Jackson,
he's really young. Um, I don't know, if I don't know,
is he is he even nineteen? Yeah? Nineteen later this year? Okay,
(51:14):
So so so this is an important part to make
point to make My high school senior year was two
was old. I was nineteen years old. I played the
Magic's Roundball Classic and KG was in that game, but
he didn't show up until game day because he was
studying for the S A T. Took the s A
T on a Saturday to which he didn't get a
passing the score and that's why he went directly to
the NBA. Is here's some of the Stephan Marbury in
(51:36):
that game. Srief up him in that game, Vince Carter
in that game, UM Robert Trailer in that game. Unbelievable
list of players we practiced for the weekly ding up.
I replaced Johnson Bill who had a shoulder injury in
that game, loaded up with guys that played a decade
in the NBA. It wasn't I want to know how
(51:57):
many sto in that game? How many I didn't take?
Not very many? No I had like I did a
good job, honestly, my my my sole focus in that
game was the shutdown step On Marbury not get crossed up.
And I really frustrate Steph and and he shot a
he shot a terrible percentage. I had a couple of
good times. I think I only made one layup. I
took like one or two threes and that's about it.
(52:18):
I was just facilitating. I mean there's some dudes anyway. UM.
My point is like two people who are like, well,
he's a lot, like is he long? And can he
play facing up the basket? Like? Yeah? But before you
even liking him, and even even if you want to
say he's like Kevin Garnett when he came out of
high school, No, he's not. Kevin Garnett was the best
player in America and it wasn't close. Jaren Jackson. Look,
(52:42):
I think he has a chance to be a really
good face up athletic big you can defend the rim
as well, um somewhere between, you know, a slash four
or five. But he's I think he's gonna be good.
He's not type I. I think that's more Bagley. I
also think Badley can handle it and it a little
bit better than you think. I don't think he was
putting that situation at Duke. I've seen him do a
(53:04):
couple more things, but yeah, like look, I think I
don't know if he's Chris Bosh, but I do think
he can be a face up big. I think he's
gonna have to rework his jump shot. And if, um,
if you know the last five years, you look at
guys that have had to rework their jump shots. None
of them do it in the first year. They do
it in the year between the first and the second year.
The teams don't feel like they have enough time. You know,
(53:25):
you get a guy at the end of June, he
does all the media stuff, you practice him up, he
goes to summer league. You know it's too it's too
it's too late to rework through things, and they wait
till the end of the first year. There's also some
confirmation bias though with NBA teams. No one really shoots
well the first year. But you're not gonna shoot well
shooting your old jump shot. And then they go eat
the numbers like, look, I know you want to shoot
that shot, but look at the numbers. They don't lie
(53:46):
and it helps the guy get by in So I
agree with you, he's he's got all right. Let's kind
of move through this. The first round of the draft. Um,
let's say don che Goes goes for you get to
five Mavericks, they go Mohamed Bamba. Yeah, I think so.
I mean high Arctor, New Orleans, Noel Right and and
and obviously a guy who can shouted New Orleans was
capped out. He never got better part because of his
(54:07):
work ethic um where Mobomba. I think he's gonna have
high work ethic um. He's obviously super long, does everything
in the defensive end, and I think he'll be adequate offensively.
I don't think he'll ever be a great offensive player,
but I think he can be a solid offensive player.
What happens with Trey Young? I've seen ESPN now having
(54:29):
dropping as far as the l A Clippers at twelve
his campus, saying three through eight. What do you think? Yeah,
I don't think it's three. I don't think he goes
three to five. I think his his feeling is probably
six um because of a need with Orlando, and I
(54:50):
think he could fall to the Clippers, who who clearly
need a point guard and could take a shot on
him with one of their two picks. Be fascinating to see.
All right, check out his new podcast. Of course, he's
gonna work for Stadium Sports to be joining us hopefully
more regularly. He's Jeff Goodman everybody hates him except for me.
I'm kidding, Jeff, I don't actually like you that much.
Thanks so much for joining us all I'll talk to you.
(55:14):
So look, as we get ready for the NBA draft, Um,
I just I get the DeAndre Eighten thing. He is
a man child, He is skilled. He He's shown a
much better motor in college than he did when he
was in high school. That bodes well for him. He
can shoot, he can pass. Some's not a great shot blocker,
(55:35):
but it's not like he can't block shots at all.
I just how many times do we have to see
a center being taken out of the game in a
big NBA game before we start to think is that
really the best best route? Um, but I gave you
the guys that I would take instead of I would
take Marvin Bagley one, even if I was even if
(55:56):
I was the Phoenix Suns. Part of the problem with
the Phoenix Suns is they just don't seem to have
a winning culture. They got a lot of talent there.
I do think Devin Booker still has a chance to
be a superstar. But at some point they got to decide,
all right, we got some pieces we want to win
they're gonna take Ayton Bagley is gonna go to Sacramento,
and what happens that it with it Atlanta really kind
(56:17):
of shapes the rest of the draft. My guess, just
a guess, is that you know, they know what they
have at points that they probably go with Jaren Jackson
at three, but you know, maybe they go for Trey
Young and maybe they try and and play the way
that Golden State did. Maybe they try and remake themselves
in that fashion. Will We shall see. In the meantime,
(56:37):
I really appreciate you downloading, rating, and subscribing to this podcast.
It's called All Ball. It will continue as next next
week we'll get you ready for Lebron Week or Kauai Week,
will react to the draft, we'll react to Draft day trades,
and get you ready for free agency bananza, and we'll
begin to talk a little bit more about what's left
the shrapnel that we gotta pick out. Oh yeah, college bass, well,
(57:00):
not just recruiting, but guys that didn't keep their name
in the draft. Who benefits, who's strong, who's weak? The
massive rebuild jobs in the incoming recruiting class. This is
all Ball. I'm Doug got
Hey, welcome into All Ball. I'm Doug Gottlink. Thanks so
much for uh making this a part of your podcast
listening day or podcast listening week. We're gonna get you
ready for the NBA Draft, which of course is this
Thursday night. And you can follow me on Twitter as
well as I'll be posting some things on Instagram and
(00:25):
on Facebook. I've gotten a chance to talk to a
bunch of NBA people and um talk to some agents
as well, some coaches, some front office people, all of
whom have given me a variety of uh perspectives on
what we can expect to see this Thursday. You know,
it's interesting because there are some people that believe this
(00:46):
is just gonna be an okay draft. If you look
back at last year, I'm not sure there was a
ton of hype at the top of the draft that
matched the hype at the top of this year's draft.
I actually think this is a pretty darn good draft.
We should have a bevy of starters, bevy of rotation players,
and then some intriguing prospects that could be very much
(01:07):
hit or very much miss um. And look, I I
think there's a lot of different topics talking topics but
here to me are the three. Most interesting one is
do you pass on DeAndre Ayton at number one or
even in the top two or three, Not because you
don't have him as that highly rated a prospect, but
(01:30):
because he plays a position to which um is kind
of being eliminated. It's not that the center position is
being eliminated, but the type of center that that he
is is being marginalized in anyways. Now he's mobile, he
can shoot the basketball. Um. It's not that he is
(01:50):
terrible defensively, but he's not a game changer defensively, either
latterly defending on switches or at the rim. So with
that in mind, he's he's more of a additional big
guy in an era in which the traditional big guys
going the way of the Dodo. There's also the other
issue that you're going to run into, which is what
did we actually see him against a right think about
(02:12):
it for a second. We saw him again as he
was Daniel Monte. I mean, I love and respect him
for Scilla from ESPN who's covered the draft for a
long time, and he's like, look I saw him against
Arizona State, Dude, Arizona State has no big guys. They
played small ball. Of course he looked he looked like
Billy Madison playing dodgeball. That's what it looked like. He's
(02:34):
a man among boys. So we'll get back to that.
We have some gas, they'll join us, we'll have that conversation.
I do want to have the conversation about about Trey
Young and whether or not he's closer to Steph Curry
or closer to Jim or for debt and what we
can expect from a guy who had an incredible year.
(02:54):
And you can sit there and pick apart his shooting
percentages are awful from February one on. They were his
team got worse, didn't get better. That's that's accurate. But
he did in fact lead the country and scoring an
assist as a freshman. And it's really really hard to
get what what's the right perception of him? What's the
right view of him. We'll get to that um, but
(03:16):
here's the one I want to get to. And Jeff Goodman,
who just left ESPN, is going to satellite. We talked
a little bit on his podcast. We'll talk a little
bit more here on mine, which is we have created
we have created a generation of of cyborg basketball players.
That's the best word I can think of to describe
(03:37):
some of these guys. Cyborg basketball players. Um a cyborg
is uh is where you're both organic and biometric in
body parts. I mean that in that these guys are
not real human beings. I'm not sure if you saw
or read or heard the comments from DeAndre Ayton, who
(03:58):
was probably gonna be the the number one of all pick
in which he said that he has these three kind
of alternative personalities that he uses any time he doesn't
want to do an interview. You know, one's name is Eric,
I can't remember. The other two's name doesn't really matter.
The point is this that that's actually something he uttered.
He was asked about why he signed with Puma, and
(04:21):
he basically said it was a business decision. You know,
he didn't say anything about the quality of the shoes
or about the look of it. And it doesn't mean
that it's not true. It's just like the interview thing.
It doesn't mean that it's not true that you don't
try and go to a different place and try and
be a different person because you get tired of doing interviews.
It's just who in their right mind would say that.
(04:41):
And the answer is guys that don't have real emotional
intelligence and don't understand how the world's gonna take them.
And look, I I will blame some of this on
the system. And by system, I don't mean the n
c A, that's what most of you blame it on.
I mean the system of he comes over with his
family from the Baha Alma's and he ends up leaving
(05:02):
his family home and he's basically like a like a
foster child, only his parents still wanted him. But he's
basketball vagabond, bouncing from home to home in order to
play uh for fake high schools. And then he's reunited
with his family, but by then you know he he was.
(05:23):
He was just in the business of playing basketball. Like
he's not a he was never a kid. He was
never allowed to just be a kid. He was never
allowed to kind of succeed or fail. He's never allowed
to go to regular high school. Like these things do
work for people. We do realize that it's it's okay
for a seven foot tall freak athlete who's gonna play
(05:45):
in the NBA to just play in a regular high
school team, Like it's okay, And you might say to yourself, yeah,
but then they'll play two three and they'll hang like, okay, fine,
he might not win every game. Anthony Davis, by the way,
for people who don't know, played out one of the
worst school teams in recent memory. Anthony Davis Now, he
grew late, but it also allowed him to kind of
(06:06):
explore and his game as his body kind of developed.
I just or then you look at Michael Porter Jr.
Who said he's somewhere around Janice as a player. He
feels like he's more like Tracy McGrady. And if you
talk to NBA people, they'll all tell you, like, I
just I don't like him. I don't like him. It's
(06:28):
not that he's a bad kid, like gangbanger, he doesn't
do drugs. Um. It sound an issue like that. He
just unlikable, hasn't been coached, kind of elite, elitist, arrogant um.
You know, he thinks his ship doesn't stink. And he's
never dudes played two college basketball games two ever in
(06:50):
his life. And I guess maybe that's where the comparison comes.
When when he's talking himself up and he's discussing how
great he is in comparison to Tracy McGrady, who of course,
Tracy McGrady never played in college. I guess um, it's
just a weird thing to say. It's just the idea
(07:13):
that you would have no real understanding of how how
you would be taken, how how people would feel when
you would say this, Like, it's just not that hard
to be coached to say when somebody asks you who
you're like, I would love someday, Well, I would love
someday to be like Tracy McGrady. That's what I'd like someday.
(07:34):
That's who in my game. Or I'd love to be
a mix of t If I work hard enough, maybe
one day I could be like a Janice, like a
Tracy McGrady, somewhere in between the two. This is a
basketball player, Michael Porter Jr. Who played in three games
three three his entire career. He scored thirty points in
(07:55):
college basketball. He's ten of thirty from the field, seven
of twenty, three of ten from three point range, seven
and nine from you get the point. He had one
assist in three games. I'm not gonna make any statement
about who he is or what he is. All I'm
gonna tell you is, please don't say you're Jannie or
Tracey like, I don't think Trace McGrady belongs in the
(08:17):
Hall of Fame because until he was, you know, over
the hill and the last guy in the bench, he
couldn't make it out of the first round of the playoffs.
That said, you're comparing yourself to a Hall of Famer
and Janice is an m VP candidate. You've played fifty
three minutes of college basketball. And the reason that Michael
(08:40):
Porter Jr. In in in completely different fashion, completely different
fashion from Deandret and Michael Porter Jr's dad was a
coach on the women's team at Missouri, very tight knit family,
very Christian family, very protected family, and basically they wrapped
him in a bubble so that he wasn't ever around
the old world. And that's that what happened with Trey Young.
(09:04):
And like Trey Young was asking the Dan Patrick Show
if you could think of of any better shooters and
he said maybe Clay and Staph Like what who says
these things? And and I if you're downloading this podcast,
you're probably not that guy. But you might be. You
might think, got leeb, you're turning in to get off
my long guy. No I'm not. I'm telling you you
(09:26):
walk into an NBA locker room and you say that
ship and they're gonna laugh in your face. They just are.
They're gonna sit there and go, Okay, well, how come
you shot from three from February on? You? How come
your team started losing? And you know, you guys are
we're falling and you can't get up. I've been a
(09:48):
tray I was a Trey Young defender before he got
to Oklahoma. But dude, they went eighteen and fourteen. Go
back and look at at what happened to his squad,
you know, I mean, hell, even if you go from
the new year on, this is a great little exercise here, right,
you go from January three, January three to the end
(10:12):
of the season. Do you want to notice? And that
January three was his first game, that's when he took
I think it's thirty eight shots against Oklahoma State. If
you look at Trey Young's numbers after February one, his
team won two games, two both at home Kansas State
Iowa State. This is what he did over the last
(10:34):
eleven games of the season. He shot thirty six percent
from the field from three point range. He had seventy
nine assists and fifty six turnovers like, look, I like
Trey Young. He was way better, way earlier than anyone
(10:54):
could have hoped. But who has the balls to go
on Dan Patrick show and say, you know, listen, uh,
Steph and Claire the only two guys who can hold
my jock as a shooter, Like I want you want
your kid to be confident. You don't want your kids
to be arrogant. And even if it wasn't, it wasn't
tongue planted firmly in cheek, even if you're just kind
(11:14):
of living up to the moment, like, hey, this is
what guys do. They talk about themselves. They brag about themselves.
The inability to relate to everyone else in the world
and how everyone else is going to take that is
kind of what's missing Trey Young. His dad, Ray Young,
I played against him, was a very good player of
Texas Tech, and Trey has been his entire life has
(11:36):
been kind of molded for this destination that he could
play in the NBA, that he could be a one
and done. And I guess they're right right, Like they
didn't want him. You know, he didn't go to Kentucky
because cal Parry wasn't sure he was a one and done,
and Kansas wasn't sure. You know, they had Davonte Graham,
they had other players. He would play, but he probably
(11:58):
wouldn't get the opportunity to put up the numbers that
he put up at KU And so I guess he's
right and we're all wrong. On the other hand, we've
created this system to which guys aren't dealing with They're
not dealing with the realities of life, like you're going
to struggle. It's going to be really, really hard. Those
(12:22):
are the there's four players in the NBA, there's basically
like three NBA players. The rest of the guys that
got a rotate around or whatever call up called out
two way guys and anyway. But even if it's four
d four fifty jobs, they're all coming at you, just
like they all came at Lonzo Ball. And look, Lonzo
Ball shot great, shot, very good percentages in college, terrible
(12:45):
in the pros. His team accomplished more than Trey Young's did,
and his run wasn't easy. The point is we've created
this environment to which, um, these guys have a completely
unreal sense of who they are. That's why let's get
back to DeAndre et do I think Eytan's good. Yeah,
do I think he's a man child, of course. But
(13:05):
I also realized, tell me who the NBA players, the
NBA bodies he's going against our It is men against boys.
If you are big, you're gone. There aren't big There
aren't old big guys in college basketball that are good
at all. If you're any good, you're at mobile at all.
You know, there's the Isaac hass the Isaac Hasta of
(13:26):
the world. There's a four year player. I guess the
point is that if we're comparing DeAndre Ayton and what
he did, you look at how he struggled against Buffalo. Right,
he struggled against Buffalo because Buffalo played small ball. So look,
I want to get to the deandreat In conversation, the
Trey Young conversation to that in a second. But the
first thing is that maybe the most important thing is
(13:47):
we've created these cyboards. They look like humans, they feel
like humans, They played basketball like superhumans, but they are
not human beings. Whether it's Deandreatan bouncing from house to
house to house after coming over from the Bahamas, or
it's Trey Young and Michael Porter raised by great families
who meant well, but an effort to shelter them from
(14:07):
the ills of the world created. All they do is
play basketball and post on social media and talk about
how great they are. Because on social media, people either
talk about how great they are or they take shots.
They try and take shots at them, and those guys
become haters. And that's It's a fascinating world in which
we live in in the in basketball because football just
(14:30):
for the most part, doesn't have that. There's a certain
grit and toughness and you have to have shown it.
You play three years in in in college and so
your flaws get exposed. I thought, for sure, no person,
no person could make Josh rosen Uh look humble. And
then I read the comments of Michael Porter Jr. Comparing
(14:51):
himself to a Hall of Famer and a future Hall
of Famer, one of the top players in the NBA,
and Janison saying he thinks he's a little bit better
right now, seeing as he's played eighty three minutes in
college basketball fifty three minutes whatever the hell was. Yeah,
that's that's cart a little bit ahead of horse. I
am excited about the NBA draft. I have written a
column which you may see up on the athletic Let
(15:13):
me kind of give you the basis of it. It's
I would take this guy over that guy. I would
pick this over that. I would take Colin Sexton over
Trey Young. And he might say, yourself, you're handing on
Trey Young again. No, um doesn't have great practice habits,
not not a leader that people get behind or as
(15:35):
Colin Sexton is, and does I do think those things matter.
Colin Sexton can already guard his position, is tough enough
to guard bigger players. That's huge in the NBA, where
switching everything or switching one through four is the norm,
not the exception, and whereas it's hard to hide a
Tray Young. And you're left with two different decisions if
you have Tree Young. One is to give him the ball,
(15:56):
give him a high ball screen, spread him out, and
let him just go. What are you gonna have? You're
gonna have some nights where he's outstanding. You're also gonna
have some really high turnover nights and some really bad
shot nights, and the numbers will skew in his favor
because like, look, dude, if you put a guy into
eight pick and rolls, he's gonna get some pretty good numbers.
Either he's gonna hit shots with somebody else's, but will
you win that way? I talked to an NBA coach
(16:18):
who said, whoever drafts Tree Young is going to get fired. Now,
you could say that about a lot of guys, but
the point was, you draft him a little bit higher
than you want to because you're trying to not miss
on the next Steph Curry, even if he's not Steph Curry.
And the downside to that is you're gonna play him
earlier and give him more opportunities than he probably deserves
earlier because of how high a draft pick he is
(16:39):
and how much of a following he has. What happened
with Johnny Manzel, what happened with jimmerfer debt. We focus
on Steph Curry because his game does look in many
ways like a freshman college Oklahoma version of Steph Curry,
but there isn't the leadership quality member. Steph played more
(17:02):
off the basketball even in his first couple of years,
not just because of injury. It should be noted I
was told by several members of the Warriors front office
at the time when they made the trade UH, when
they trade away Monte Ellis to get back, Andrew Bogan returned.
Steph Curry and Monte Ellis were offered pick one or
the other. The Bucks chose monte Ellis. So not only
(17:25):
did the Bucks not know, the Warriors didn't know, things
came together and became a two time m v P.
B less not act like we all saw this coming.
I definitely didn't. But even if you did see it
coming and you liked him, he was a better leader. Uh.
He competed more at the defensive end. Trey Young is
a very good pastor. I would say Steph. Steph didn't
(17:46):
show us as much passing until his junior year when
he did play some point um. And I think that
Trey Young is growing into his body. He'll be a
better athlete. And neither are great athletes. But I do
think that Steff was a little bit more bouncy. Trey
hasn't had any injuries, and Steff had early injuries. I
(18:07):
just think you're gonna give this kid the ball because
you're gonna overdraft him and he's gonna struggle. And we
talked with Steve Clifford, who is the head coach of
the Orlando Magic, probably gonna have Trey Young that looks
like a destination for him. They need a point guard.
They also need a reason to fill up that new arena.
The problem with that is Steve Clifford has even said, hey,
(18:27):
guys in the Pros to give up night. Those are
They're really really hard to win with. Right, here's another one.
Some people like Troy Brown orreas. I like Chandler Hutchinson.
Troy Brown super hyped on paper, super talented, and maybe
maybe he's like Jalen Brown no relation where Jalen Brown
didn't shoot a good percentage of cow but became a
(18:48):
viable three point weapon the Pros. And Troy Brown's only
eighteen years only turns nineteen this summer. But I look
at Chandla Hutchinson, who's only he's twenty two years old.
He's more refined in the switch happy end a. He
can guard multiple positions. And no, he'll never be the
ball handler Troy Brown is, but he's a really good
three and D guy. He can hit threes at a
much higher clip than Troy Brown can, and he can
(19:10):
play D at a much higher level than Troy Brown can.
Instead of living on au reputation, I would draft Chandler
Hutchinson because during his rookie contract, you'll get more out
of him than you will Troy Brown. Here's one. I'd
take Aaron Holiday ahead of Jalen Brunson. Both are both
are gonna be backup point guards in the NBA. Jalen
Brunson is a better basketball player, he leads a little
(19:34):
bit better, he makes more shots. It's a sounder passer.
He's a smarter player. And Aaron Holiday is tougher, more athletic,
and a better fit as a backup guard in the NBA.
Both of course have NBA d n a um. Jalen's
dad was a long time Rick was a long time
backup in the league. And if this you could back
(19:54):
dudes down and score in the midpost, in the midpost
and score on pull ups, you take Jalen Brunson a heartbeat.
But because it's two thousand eighteen, where you get is
so and you have to have lateral foot quickness and
you can't touch anybody. I like, I take Aaron Holiday
ahead of Jalen Brunson. Um, I would take Grayson Allen
I had of Dante de Vincenzo. You know, Dante de
Vincenzo is kind of the newer version of Grace Allen
(20:18):
and Grace Down isn't his bouncy's he used to be,
but he's still pretty bouncy. He makes shots. He's a
much better ball handler than Dante de Vincenzo. Uh And
though DiVincenzo is an excellent defender, I think Grace Now
it would be a pretty good defender. Both will struggle
against bigger, longer dudes. DiVincenzo tough, probably a little tougher
than Grace nown but Grace now it is far from soft.
(20:39):
I would actually take Grace Now and a head of
Donte DiVincenzo because I think he's a far more refined
offensive player, saying as he was the guy at Duke
and then he had to fit in with a group
at Duke, whereas DiVincenzo came off the bench and listen,
you just had a chance to just go get buckets
and not have to think about running a team. DiVincenzo
is not a point guard, not close, but at least
when um Grace now and did play point it wasn't
(21:01):
the disaster that the times Donte DiVincenzo was. And again,
like Donte DiVincenzo, glad he's staying in the draft. I
think he's going to stick in the NBA for a
long time. I just have both eyes open. And then
the last one and the pick this not that is
DeAndre and I would take Marvin Bagley over DeAndre Ayton.
Show me the big center. I guess it's Joel Embiid,
(21:24):
But Joel embiads a much better all around athlete out
in the court. Um And remember Embiad's perimeter game took
years to develop, and that development began when he had
the first really two years off of his NBA journey.
That's not what's gonna happen with DeAndre Ayton. He won't
have the time to develop until probably his first off season. Bagley,
(21:44):
at worst, maybe not worst, at I would expect him
to be a Cris Bosh type. I do thinking, hand
the ball a lot better and be involved a lot
more on the perimeter, handling the basketball, passing the basketball,
getting his own shot, get into some io's the pros
that he was when he played a duke. Marvin baglews
supposed to be be the number one pick for the season.
Maybe this is a confirmation bias, and that's why I'm
(22:06):
going with him ahead of DeAndre. No more. It's just
I've watched an f n B A and I see
the paucity of legit back to the basket players, and
I'm like that Deandreatan things sounds great when you're at Arizona.
It doesn't sound great when you get to the pros.
And the pros you gotta play face. You got the basket,
and you have to be a better rim protective. He
just doesn't predict the rim all that one two thousand thirteen,
two thousand fourteen Indiana Pacers had I mean they look,
(22:31):
they had a shot. They had an absolute shot at
the Miami Heat. And the roster composition is is and
the role allocation is so different, so different. They finished
first in the NBA's Central Division. They lost in Game
(22:52):
six to the Miami Heat. They beat the Hawks and
seven to beat the Wizards in six. And this is
a team that remember that was before Paul George broke
his leg. Paul George's only twenty three. They had Land
Stevenson that has been Land sevens and George Hill, David West,
Roy Hibbert a good team. But watch the NBA playoffs
(23:15):
now and you're like, wait, whatever happened to Roy Hibbert?
Not in the league David West, and I grant you
David West at thirty seven years old. You know, nobody
at thirty seven years old is going to be nearly
what they were at thirty three years old. But he's
also he's not a traditional but he was a too
early two thousand's, late nineties power forward. And you can
(23:37):
score some of the post. He's very good on pick
and pop, but on what's called a short role, you know,
like an eighteen foot I mean that just that keyhole
jump shot he would make time and again, and Hibbert's
out of the league. West and maybe or guys like
West are now either shooting threes or they're out of
the league. Kind of fascinating how this thing has changed.
(23:58):
Nobody knows it better than Frank Local course, longtime coach
in the NBA, kind of to spend some time this
year on Fox Sports Radio. Um, when was the moment
that that the shark was that the shark jumped that
all of a sudden, like a guy like Roy Hibbert
couldn't play in this league? Was it was it those
final series where they would go where where they would
(24:19):
go small against you guys, and he had no one
he could guard well, I definitely think that contributed to it.
You know, I don't know if there was it was
one moment, but um, you know, we have the number
one defense in the league two years in a row.
Roy was the centerpiece of that, and um, you know,
a couple of different playoffs series uh sort of I
don't want to say exposed Roy, but made it difficult
(24:41):
for us to have him out. There was the Atlanta
series where they played the point to the points tutors,
and then each of those Miami series ultimately ended ended
in Chris Boss playing the five. And you know, obviously
they were able to prevail. Um. You know a lot
of a lot of different teams, uh began doing it, uh,
you know, in small stretches and then obviously going to
state uh and went to their death line up, and
(25:04):
you know everybody copied them from there. So you know,
I think it was a gradual evolution and you know,
certainly change the way the games played today. Okay, So
I guess here's the question. You've been this game essentially
the entire professional life, right, worked your way up become
the head coach of the Pacers, head coach the Magic
Frank Vocal our guest on the Doug Gotlip Show. I was.
(25:24):
I was hanging out with an Eastern Conference head coach
last week and he was telling me, like, look, it's
not coming back, like the big guy who posts up,
it's just not coming not coming back. He's like, we were,
we were holding out hope because they have a center
that they're probably gonna part ways with that when we
call for the ball, they're like, we tracked. It's a
shot for our big guy to scoring the low post.
He's pretty good, and they're not going to change the
(25:46):
way they officiate. So it's a very physical game down there.
It makes it inefficient. But then I look, and you
got Carl Town's, you got um, you know Joel Embiid,
you got DeMarcus Cousins, you got DeAndre and come in
the league. They do have really good big guys. Do
you think it ever comes back in vogue that you
can use a true center. Well, yeah, I don't think
(26:09):
it's ever gonna come back to the way it was.
You know, to me, it's it's really about playing with
two bigs. Is where the game has changed over the
last you know, plub of six years, more so than
the true center. You know, I still think there's a
place for post offense, and you see that throughout throughout
the playoffs. You do see the balling and going to
the post, whether it's a wing player like le Lebron
(26:31):
or uh you watch the L and B play Um
Cousins you mentioned, even even you know, trying to get
Kevin Love and out Horford involved down low. You know,
as you watch an Eastern Conference playoffs, you know it's
it's it's it's always going to be a part of
the game. But it's not. It's not gonna go back
to the way it was where you know you're seeing
you know, the the eighties where alas Juan and and
uh Duncan are getting the ball down low twenty thirty times.
(26:54):
Tonight it's just not as efficient. Not as efficient offense
is you know, playing the play pick and roll game
and striving for for open lafts and open threes. Frank Vogar,
I guess DeAndre Ayton is getting ready to likely be
the number one overall pick and some of it is
out of need. Right you look at at the void
with the Phoenix suns is they don't have a true center.
(27:16):
But how do you this is like in football, do
you take a running back that early in the draft,
like Sae Kwon Barkley who fits that kind of the
classic running back. But you can get a running back
and be fine later on in the draft. You can
Clint Capella can be a great role man and can
switch defensively, and you can get a Clint Capella later
on the draft. How do you evaluate a player like
(27:37):
Eton who can face up doves, has some majority, but
he's not a great shop blocker and he's not really
like a roll to the rim big guy. How do
you evaluate how effective he can be? And if you
use your number one pick on him, no, you gotta
you got gas and all those things. You know, how
good of a defender is he gonna be? Is he
gonna be down that like Ludi Colbert in today's game?
(27:58):
Is he is? He's just going to be ava? Is he? Um?
Is he gonna be extraordinary as as a lobst rolling
to the basket? Uh? Is he going to be a
short roll guy who is getting catching the ball in
the pocket or is he going to be a most
effective getting the ball in a in a low post?
And you know all those things you know you measure
on a on a one a ten scale, and um,
(28:19):
you know it takes the totality of it and and
you know then obviously affector and all the things like
i Q and rod and and all those things to
see what kind of player are you just gonna get?
Frank Volgar I guess on the Doug Gottlip Show, how
difficult is the task of coaching and managing egos? Knowing
that these guys like they've gotten smart with free agency
(28:40):
and they're taking short deals and they're talking and texting
behind everybody's back about kind of joining up and joining forces.
How did putting the team together? Yeah, this managing the egos,
you know, it's it's uh, it's just part of the game,
you know, the way it is when when free asments
come around. Um, and even you know, guys that our
creat it's yet but are going to be freed and
(29:02):
as they can kind of talk their way out of situations. Um.
You know, That's why I really believe that I've always
had the mindset that you want to partner up with
your guys, you want to make them, uh, you know,
as happy as as as possible, and and you know
a lot of that involves, Um, you know, are we
being pushed here, you know, with with whatever team that
(29:22):
player is on, and um, you want to make sure
that your situation, uh is clear to each player that
that this is the best situation for them and they
don't need to be looking elsewhere. Um. You you also
took on a completely different challenge in Orlando right where
it was a complete rebuild and you're trying to you
like your your your torn right because you're better off
(29:45):
if for the franchise if you lose. On the other hand,
for you and your job security, you gotta win and
be competitive. Um, if you could do it all over again,
would you do it all over again? You obviously, you
know you look at little things you can do differently.
But you know, we we we absolutely had a long
(30:06):
type of approaches there. Um a unique situation for me
because our front office, our front office team staff the
year one and um, you know you just posted the
team that this is going to be there forever. You know,
That's that's the mindset I've always had. You know, it's
not about you know, scooping up a couple of us
to win here and there to you know, quote unquote
pad your stats or whatever it makes yourself look good
(30:27):
in terms of how many wins you have and um,
you know, but you have to do what's what's an
investments of a franchise, you know, and and operate them
the assumption and you're gonna be there a long term.
You you had until he was traded. You had Alfred Payton,
who was really talented guard, but he really he struggled
to shoot right and I and I had Steve clifford
(30:47):
On who obviously took the Orlando job, and we talked
about we didn't talk about Trey Young per se. But
there's the balance of you really need shooting. You really
need to be able to shoot the basketball in today's
NBA unless you know, unless you're some Rereek like Janice
you know, who can get to the basket or or
Ben Simmons, and even that something gets exposed in the NBA.
But the point guard position, you really need to shoot.
On the other hand, you know the way people play
(31:10):
defensively now everybody's switching defensively, you also need to guard.
How how should we evaluate players coming in the league
And the importance of shooting is opposed to the importance
of defense in into who should be, for example, a
point guard for a team that's trying to rebuild. Well,
I think uh, shooting is is more of a pretium
(31:30):
now than it's ever been. And it's not just the
point guard position. I think I think every perimeter position
uh has has to have you know, uh, the ability
to shoot the basketball or we respect it out there. Um,
and then in most cases the center position does as well.
It's it's really across the board, not just not just
the point guard position. So you know, I think there's uh,
(31:51):
you know, if you're not a great shooter, you've got
to be um, you've got to excel in other areas.
You know, that's clear and um, you know, I think
that's what everybody's looking at with all these these players
coming into the draft. And then as in terms of
the defensive end, it is a switching world out there.
So um, you know, your competitive spirit, your fight, it's
not just always about your size and athleticism, but you know, uh,
(32:13):
you know what's your i Q? Like you know when
you're gonna switch, are you gonna be those guys like
Andre Miller and and uh you know, Jared w and
not almost athleticos, but they're savvy enough to not get
beating switches and Um, you know, you just have to
evaluate all all those types of things. It's not just
about your law athleticism, but switchability defensively and pretty point
(32:34):
shooting are obviously big premiums and what everybody's taking for
in the year's draft. Well, Frank, everybody knows you can coach.
I'm sure you'll be back coaching very very soon. If not,
we're just gonna keep plucking your knowledge because it's it's great. Um,
it's it's it's so far above that of of us,
of the common man. Appreciate you joining us and we'll
talk soon. Thanks. Take care. You can follow them on
(32:56):
Twitter at r P three Not Natural. He's Rashot Phillips,
basketball analyst and draft guru. He joins us on the
Doug Gotlip Show on Fox Sports Radio. All right, so
I saw you on Colin Cowherd and you had Trey
Young as your number one prospect in the draft. Why yes, Um,
just because when you when you look at the dynamics
(33:18):
of the NBA game and the way that is evolved
in you have to have a dynamic type of point
guard in order to win games, and and Trey Young
epitomizes that. But he doesn't play any defense. There's a
lot of guys that don't play any defense in this draft.
Hold On, hold on, who doesn't Marvin Bagley is not
(33:43):
a great defender either. There's there's there's, there's, there's two
there's there's two types of guys though. Okay, there are
guys that don't give enough effort and could give more effort.
There are guys that don't have the speed and quickness
to it, and there are guys that try to stay away,
like he doesn't guard anybody. Anybody and his body his
(34:05):
body type is such to which I know he's added
some strength here and workouts. Yeah, but his boy type
says where he just gets ragged dulled by people, whereas
Badley is not great and needs to be better. But
let's be honest, at least he can put a body
on somebody. The same could be said for Dante. Yeah. Yeah,
but uh Trey is a lot like step Curry in
regards to his offense is his defense, so you have
(34:29):
you cannot ignore how great he is on the offensive
side of the floor because in the NBA, it's not
about ball stoppers. In the NBA, it's about excitement. It's
about hitting three pointers. Electrifying a crowd. That's where the
NBA is about. It's not about guys that can sit
down and play defense. Okay, So why why did he
struggle so much from February one on? Well, you have
(34:53):
to look at it from the standpoint where he was
the you know, the number one guy on the scouting report. Um,
Oklahoma wasn't really a good team, and they wore him
down a lot, a lot. So he tried to give
all he could on the offensive end, but and tried
to rest a little bit on deep on the defensive end,
and he got burnt a couple of times. And hopefully,
you know, he's learned from that. That's been about. That
(35:15):
was about five months ago. Hopefully he's learned from those mistakes. Um.
It seems like he's gotten bigger in the weight room. UM.
And now at the NBA game, he's not gonna have
that much responsibility UM as a as an offensive player,
So he's not gonna have to carry the weight and
the low of a whole team like he had to
do in college. Doug gotl Live Show Fox Sports trader
(35:36):
ras Sean Phillips joining us. Okay, so if you have him,
I mean, if you have him number one on your board,
that would make him the most underrated guy. So who
is the most overrated guy? Which guy makes you be
most queasy? If if you see his name taken early,
I would have to say Luca Donshes. I just kind
of I kind of cringed at that. I crammed at
(35:57):
it because here's a guy that hasn't proven anything. And
in American basketball, obviously he's fantastic and European play uh
and I respect what he's done as a European player,
But the NBA it's a totally different thing. Let's let's
think about football here, Doug, because you're a football guy.
Just like the CFL. A guy catches twenty touchdowns in
(36:18):
the CFL as a wide receiver and then he comes
to the NFL. Well, there's gonna be different defenders. There's
no Drell revis Is in the CFL. There's no Josh
Normans in the CFL. Luca Dong just has that same
type of transition that he has to get accustomed to
different defenders, smarter guys, taller, stronger and coming for a throat.
(36:38):
You know, it's it's it's interesting because I look, I've
played overseas. You did as well. We both know that that, Like, look,
there's a different set level of athletes, especially when you're
going against the European a European guy trying to guard you,
a different style of officiating. Yeah, we also have to
remember that college basketball isn't at the level of Europe
(36:59):
and it's actually a lower like It's like the the
DeAndre Ayten thing is he is he a freak? Yeah,
but he's also going against college bigs, and there are
no good college big so he's not going against anybody
who's a like talent. I I agree with that. I
have to agree that you know, Atan is a physical specimen. Um,
he's bigger than everybody, so he's gonna have an adjustment
(37:22):
as well. But again he has been accustomed to playing
over here in America, so his transition is not as
not as as deep as it's gonna be for Luca Doncheys.
I think Lucas gonna have more of a steeper learning curve.
Um been a guy like DeAndre Ayton Um. Our kids
in America bread to play at the NBA level. Um,
(37:43):
that's the way they're raised and with trade relatively, here's
his dad played at Texas Tech. So he's been around
that and he studied it since the kid. So you
gotta you gotta have you gotta respect that part of it.
Michael Porter Jr. Is a tough one, right. He has
a of offensive skill, but he had has had injuries,
(38:04):
he hadn't played much in college. And there's also something
that he has that a lot of people think that
Trey has, where there's this he hadn't really been coached
and he that they I mean, these guys come in thinking.
I mean, he was quote as saying like, I think
I'm more like Tracey McGrady, I go stronger, I'm tougher
around the basket than Kevin Durant. Is Like, you're not
comparing it that thing One day I want to be saying,
(38:26):
I rd am. A lot of his his arrogance rubbed
people the wrong way. What do you think of Michael
Porter Jr. When he what he'll be in the NBA.
I think I think his is really based on on
injury um in regards to have been confidence in himself.
I have no problem with that, but sometimes you know,
(38:46):
these are these are keys at the end of the day,
so sometimes, uh, they don't express themselves the way that
they should. Um. Like Aiden's comments about his Puma shoe.
I'm sure we can get into that later. But I
think Michael Porter if he if he can stay healthy, um,
I think he's gonna be a really good NBA player. Um,
but there's still a lot to improve on. And I
(39:09):
don't know if he can play eighty two games because
he couldn't play thirty college games. Yeah, it's it's a
it's a really hard one when you look at guys
getting getting dinged up. Although you did just say that
that Trey Young got worn down and you think he's
gonna play two games when he struggled, I understand it's
totally different than three games versus Um, you mentioned the
shoe things. So people are just joining us and they're
(39:30):
not you guys. Puma has signed Marvin Bagley and DeAndre
and and jay Z. Yeah, and you and your reaction
was what I just I don't. I think they're gonna
have a hard time because this generation of Keith and
in his story and his history tells us that we
don't really purchase post player shoes. So they there's gonna
(39:53):
be an uphill battle in regards to trying to sell
post player shoes two kids, because kids are the and
by shoes. I look, I don't think that. I don't
think they did it to sell shoes specifically, right, Like
very few guys their signature shoes actually make money. Pumas
just trying to get the skin in the game. You
get jay z z, is there is there big play.
(40:16):
They're gonna have the number one and probably number two
picks in the NBA draft, and even us talking about
it is wins for Puma, Like, man, they won't sell shoes, Yeah,
but we're talking about it, which considering Puma was never
a word of mouth. We haven't heard nobody's signed with
Puma since Vince Carter did. I actually think that's their win?
Is that? Is that a fair? Is that a fair statement?
(40:36):
I totally understand that. I was just thinking from a
shoe standpoint. If you know, you got kids, I got kids.
I'm not gonna take my kids to the store to
go buy uh, you know, some Beyandre eight and shoes
like I'm not gonna do that. Um, I'm gonna get
him some Kyrie Irvans or something like that. But from
that standpoint of of reconnecting with the culture, I think
(40:56):
it's a phenomenal idea to get those guys and get
Jay Z as an ambassador to come along, and I
think they will be going in the right direction in
that regard. The only thing I will I will say,
I'll say this, I agree with you in thought that
my kids wouldn't buy big guy's shoes. It's one of
the reasons that Lebron James, a lot of Lebron James
shoes have been a tougher sell because Lebron James is
(41:19):
a big dude. He's got to have big dude shoes.
But but remember, like if you go back, remember the
David Robinson pumps, I had those. Yeah, the Shack pumps,
I had those. The Shack pumps, I had those. So
I didn't buy the Shack l A gears. So there
were some big guys shoes that did sell. But David
Robinson kind of was more of a He was an
(41:40):
NBA scoring champ, you know, so he had a little
bit more gravitation because of what he accomplished in those shoes.
But just the traditional like Keim Duncan shoe, Like nobody's
taking their son to a foot locker and say, hey man,
let me get you the Tim Duncan. That's just not happening.
I know, I understand that says fair. It's also it's
(42:01):
Tim Duncan. He was incredibly, incredibly boy a great job
today on the Herd. Thanks so much for Jonas. Follow
him on Twitter. He's a shot. Phillips, thanks for joining us.
Thank you, Doug. You to man like always all right
in a tip for tat Uh. Yesterday we recorded his
first podcast. It's called Good and Plenty. He's Jeff Goodman
(42:22):
now of Stadium Sports, and he joins us here on
the All Ball Podcast. I have topics that I don't
know if you got to the rest of your On
the rest of your podcast, we talked a little bit
on yours about DeAndre Atan, the death of the death
of the modern day Center. Here's what I want to
get to, um Luca don Check. It feels to me
(42:45):
like we're massively underrating him massively and here's why overrating them.
Didn't we like, like because ESPN and and job Vin
Tivoni and Mike Schmidt's had him is like the number
one pick all year, so we started overrating and now
I think we are underrating him and people saying he's
the number four pick and picking apart his game and
he's he's not athletic. He's probably somewhere in between. Right, Well,
(43:10):
I guess, I guess. Look, there's a there's a question here, Okay,
there's there's a bunch of things that go into it. Um,
would you say, how competent a shooter do you think
he is? I mean, from what I've watched on film
and I've watched a ton is is he's pretty good.
I mean he's streaky, but his stout looks it looks nice.
I mean the releases, it looks good. I mean, he's
(43:33):
gonna make shots in the league, partially because he's already
pretty good shooter. He's young, and his work ethic is good,
and he's really confident, almost on the border of of
um cocky, which he's gonna need to be coming into
the NBA. Well, it's it's it's fascinating. I got into
a little bit of the confidence in the Arrogancet, the
Michael Porter Jr. And some of his most recent comments. Uh, well,
(43:55):
when we get to those, I think it's interesting though
that like we're not paying attention and off attention to
trends in the NBA. I talked to several people in
the NBA. The look, we ain't drafting anybody that can't shoot,
which is not you know, We're just not drafting like
we'll find if that's the big or if it's an
or if it's if it's a Janice, you know, if
(44:16):
it's a game changing ball handling, super long athletic. Uh,
maybe we can teach him how to shoot Ben Simmons type, right,
Like those guys, well, those guys are stars, and in
the only way those guys can be who you know,
reach their potential is if you space the floor and
put three point shooters. So it's interesting with the Don
(44:36):
Chick thing, where I I do think he's gonna be
a very good shoot in the NBA. I don't think
he may not ever be the best player on his team.
But I mean, considering it his age, winning a Euro
winning a La Liga as well, and being the best
player on that team and the kind of leader of
that team and dominant, that's that's pretty crazy that that
(44:59):
we're comparing him to, whether it's Michael Porter Jr. Who
played in three games, or DeAndre and who we all
considered to be a beast. But there are no good
centers in college basketball, and yeah, he was dominant, but
he got beat in the first round the n c
A Tournament. So I think it's a it's a really
hard comparison to make because the quality of competition is
so different, and he's so different than everybody else you've mentioned,
(45:23):
And that's why, like you said, you do have to
pay attention to the trends a little bit. I agree
with you. He's probably he's probably not capable of being
a number one guy on his team, but that's fine.
If he's the number four pick in Memphis and your
pair him with Connolly and you've obviously got to add
a couple more pieces. But he's the guy you can
build around, you know. To me, can he be a
Gordon Hayward type? That who? I think? I think. I
(45:46):
think it's a really good comp I think the Gordon
Hayward is a really good, really good, really good compu.
Gordon Hayward is a little bigger than he is, but
he can do everything, could pass, he could shoot, He
was Hayward's more athletic, but he just knew how to
play and did every thing well. Nothing elite, elite level,
but he's a great number two guy on a team. Alright,
(46:06):
how do how do NBA people view some of these
young guys and their comments? Tray Young earlier today, I
want to do something that's never been done. Dan Patrick
asked him if there's a better shooter out there. He
said maybe Stephan Clay, Michael Porter Jr. Comparing himself to
Janice and to Tea mac Um. Even Deandreton's made some
weird comments. Here's what I said. I said, like, look,
(46:29):
we we've almost concreated these cyboards. Right, they look like humans,
but they're clearly not human beings, right, they're not. They
they're not. They don't understand the idea that we want
you to, even if you're not humble, to appear to
be humble. Like when when Taylor Swift every time she
gets an award, every time she gets a Grammy, she
gets up there and she's like, oh my god, I
(46:52):
can't believe it. And that's how we want you to
at least purport yourself, especially when you're super young. How
do NBA people view these guys? I wish I could
play back the comment that Marquel Folds made to me
before he played a game at Washington a year and
a half ago. About a year, right, yeah, um, right,
(47:12):
about a year and out, two years ago, whatever it was.
And I asked him, I said, what are your you know,
what are your goals, what are your expectations whatever? He said,
to be the best player ever to play this game,
and he didn't played a game at Washington yet. And
I just kind of like was like, come on, man, like,
like you've you've proven nothing at this point. You got
a number one ranking because of what you did in
(47:33):
AU basketball. It means nothing. And I just wish some
of these kids would would would show the the humility
that I think we love Steph Curry for. He always
says the right things. Lebron, even for being the best
player in the planet. Lebron's pretty humble for the most part.
I mean, he gives credit where credits due. Obviously he
(47:55):
knows he's the best player in the on the planet,
and sometimes he can get carried away and across is
arrogant um. But I think these kids have proven nothing.
Lebron is the best player. You can make a case
one of the top three players. Ever, however you want
to put him one, two or three, It doesn't matter.
These guys haven't done anything yet. You know, it's it's
it's it's Also, remember when Lebron came out, it wasn't close.
(48:18):
Like we could get onto Lebron for saying, well, you know, man,
you you can say I wasn't supposed to be here,
but you had the chosen one tattooed across your back.
The difference is I was there for the two thousand
three draft. I watched him play in high school. I
watched him. It wasn't close. There was no one in
his stratosphere. So even if it felt like bragging at
(48:40):
the time, like you know what, it wasn't really bragging.
It was kind of a matter of fact. Whereas these
kids are super talented, there's really skilled, but there's there's
no separation between them and the rest of the world
the way there was with Lebron. So please stop liking
yourself to anybody of that ELK And oh, by the way,
Doug Michael Porter played what three games? Treyn lost the
lot of games last I checked and Deander eight and
(49:02):
got knocked out in the and by Buffalo and got pounded.
So like, I know what, you guys are capable of
your all talent, and I like all three of them.
His kids a lot, a lot. I know all three
pretty well. You're you're a hater. You're when you relay
what other NBA g ms tell you about Michael Porter Jr.
Rubbing them the wrong way. You're an It's amazing, isn't it,
(49:26):
Because again, all you're doing is saying, listen. I've been
called by numerous NBA guys since before Michael Porter got
hurt when he was practicing and they were wondering, what
the hell is going on with this kid? And I
was shocked when I first heard it, Dug. I was
because I've sat down with him numerous times. And when
they're telling me, like, who is this kid? You know
(49:47):
he he conducts himself like he's not a part of
the team and arrogant and all that, And I'm saying
to myself like, is this the same kid that I know? Um? Okay,
let let's get to the NBA Draft, which is up
coming on Thursday night. This is gonna drop on a
on Wednesday morning, so we'll get people ready for it.
Um you had you said, Luca don chick, Mike My
(50:09):
might fall all the way to fourth. Does that mean
Jaren Jackson goes third? Uh to the Atlanta Hawks, though, Yeah,
I think he's just got such high upside and and
and people see him as again like what you were saying,
the new age big right. I mean he can he
can step out and shoot threes. It's not pretty. I
think he's gonna get a lot of sounds blocked on
closeout shooting the three because he shoots a you know,
(50:30):
really low release point um and it doesn't have great rotation.
But again, if the get better, he'll get better on that.
He will, He'll get better. And he's really good defensively,
and he's super high character and he works and he's
humble and all that. So I think I think he's
gonna be a good NBA player. You know, I saw
somebody comparing me like Kevin Garnett today or yesterday, and
(50:53):
I'm like, come on again, listen, listen, let me let
me just let me let me explain something. Okay at
this and it's very and now now listen, Kevin Garnett
was also nineteen when you graduated high school, whereas Jaren Jackson,
he's really young. Um, I don't know, if I don't know,
is he is he even nineteen? Yeah? Nineteen later this year? Okay,
(51:14):
So so so this is an important part to make
point to make My high school senior year was two
was old. I was nineteen years old. I played the
Magic's Roundball Classic and KG was in that game, but
he didn't show up until game day because he was
studying for the S A T. Took the s A
T on a Saturday to which he didn't get a
passing the score and that's why he went directly to
the NBA. Is here's some of the Stephan Marbury in
(51:36):
that game. Srief up him in that game, Vince Carter
in that game, UM Robert Trailer in that game. Unbelievable
list of players we practiced for the weekly ding up.
I replaced Johnson Bill who had a shoulder injury in
that game, loaded up with guys that played a decade
in the NBA. It wasn't I want to know how
(51:57):
many sto in that game? How many I didn't take?
Not very many? No I had like I did a
good job, honestly, my my my sole focus in that
game was the shutdown step On Marbury not get crossed up.
And I really frustrate Steph and and he shot a
he shot a terrible percentage. I had a couple of
good times. I think I only made one layup. I
took like one or two threes and that's about it.
(52:18):
I was just facilitating. I mean there's some dudes anyway. UM.
My point is like two people who are like, well,
he's a lot, like is he long? And can he
play facing up the basket? Like? Yeah? But before you
even liking him, and even even if you want to
say he's like Kevin Garnett when he came out of
high school, No, he's not. Kevin Garnett was the best
player in America and it wasn't close. Jaren Jackson. Look,
(52:42):
I think he has a chance to be a really
good face up athletic big you can defend the rim
as well, um somewhere between, you know, a slash four
or five. But he's I think he's gonna be good.
He's not type I. I think that's more Bagley. I
also think Badley can handle it and it a little
bit better than you think. I don't think he was
putting that situation at Duke. I've seen him do a
(53:04):
couple more things, but yeah, like look, I think I
don't know if he's Chris Bosh, but I do think
he can be a face up big. I think he's
gonna have to rework his jump shot. And if, um,
if you know the last five years, you look at
guys that have had to rework their jump shots. None
of them do it in the first year. They do
it in the year between the first and the second year.
The teams don't feel like they have enough time. You know,
(53:25):
you get a guy at the end of June, he
does all the media stuff, you practice him up, he
goes to summer league. You know it's too it's too
it's too late to rework through things, and they wait
till the end of the first year. There's also some
confirmation bias though with NBA teams. No one really shoots
well the first year. But you're not gonna shoot well
shooting your old jump shot. And then they go eat
the numbers like, look, I know you want to shoot
that shot, but look at the numbers. They don't lie
(53:46):
and it helps the guy get by in So I
agree with you, he's he's got all right. Let's kind
of move through this. The first round of the draft. Um,
let's say don che Goes goes for you get to
five Mavericks, they go Mohamed Bamba. Yeah, I think so.
I mean high Arctor, New Orleans, Noel Right and and
and obviously a guy who can shouted New Orleans was
capped out. He never got better part because of his
(54:07):
work ethic um where Mobomba. I think he's gonna have
high work ethic um. He's obviously super long, does everything
in the defensive end, and I think he'll be adequate offensively.
I don't think he'll ever be a great offensive player,
but I think he can be a solid offensive player.
What happens with Trey Young? I've seen ESPN now having
(54:29):
dropping as far as the l A Clippers at twelve
his campus, saying three through eight. What do you think? Yeah,
I don't think it's three. I don't think he goes
three to five. I think his his feeling is probably
six um because of a need with Orlando, and I
(54:50):
think he could fall to the Clippers, who who clearly
need a point guard and could take a shot on
him with one of their two picks. Be fascinating to see.
All right, check out his new podcast. Of course, he's
gonna work for Stadium Sports to be joining us hopefully
more regularly. He's Jeff Goodman everybody hates him except for me.
I'm kidding, Jeff, I don't actually like you that much.
Thanks so much for joining us all I'll talk to you.
(55:14):
So look, as we get ready for the NBA draft, Um,
I just I get the DeAndre Eighten thing. He is
a man child, He is skilled. He He's shown a
much better motor in college than he did when he
was in high school. That bodes well for him. He
can shoot, he can pass. Some's not a great shot blocker,
(55:35):
but it's not like he can't block shots at all.
I just how many times do we have to see
a center being taken out of the game in a
big NBA game before we start to think is that
really the best best route? Um, but I gave you
the guys that I would take instead of I would
take Marvin Bagley one, even if I was even if
(55:56):
I was the Phoenix Suns. Part of the problem with
the Phoenix Suns is they just don't seem to have
a winning culture. They got a lot of talent there.
I do think Devin Booker still has a chance to
be a superstar. But at some point they got to decide,
all right, we got some pieces we want to win
they're gonna take Ayton Bagley is gonna go to Sacramento,
and what happens that it with it Atlanta really kind
(56:17):
of shapes the rest of the draft. My guess, just
a guess, is that you know, they know what they
have at points that they probably go with Jaren Jackson
at three, but you know, maybe they go for Trey
Young and maybe they try and and play the way
that Golden State did. Maybe they try and remake themselves
in that fashion. Will We shall see. In the meantime,
(56:37):
I really appreciate you downloading, rating, and subscribing to this podcast.
It's called All Ball. It will continue as next next
week we'll get you ready for Lebron Week or Kauai Week,
will react to the draft, we'll react to Draft day trades,
and get you ready for free agency bananza, and we'll
begin to talk a little bit more about what's left
the shrapnel that we gotta pick out. Oh yeah, college bass, well,
(57:00):
not just recruiting, but guys that didn't keep their name
in the draft. Who benefits, who's strong, who's weak? The
massive rebuild jobs in the incoming recruiting class. This is
all Ball. I'm Doug got
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