Book of Joe: September Baseball is coming!

The Book of Joe Podcast with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon begins with the injury for Shohei Ohtani.  How does this affect his pitching and free agent future?  Joe explains his approach to keeping players healthy and how pitchers have been handled improperly.  Tom gives his thoughts on Jordan Wicks debut with the Cubs and how teams will prepare their pitchers for September.  We step over to football for a moment, where Joe comments on Matthew Stafford and a concern over his 'connection' with teammates. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Welcome Back to the Book of Joe Podcast with Me,
Tom Berducci and Joe Madden and Joe. There's a lot
of things I want to dive into. It's a really
interesting time of year as we turned a page into September,

(00:26):
Pennant races in full swing and a lot of young
players hitting the wall, a lot of pictures getting you know,
I don't want to say hurt, but especially fatigue this
time of year. But we have to start with sho
Hey Otani because once again it's found that he has
a tear in the UCL second time in five years. Listen,

(00:46):
I know how much you know what makes this guy
tick Joe and for me, I look at Otani and
a lot of people have speculated on how this harms
his free agency. I actually don't think it's going to
hurt his free agency that much. I think this guy
will be so much in demand. You know, show hey.
He loves to play the game of baseball. He is
going to pitch again, folks. It won't be until twenty

(01:09):
twenty five, but I don't see this guy giving up
that side of the game. He loves this game, and
he's gone through this before.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
This is a setback.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
But when you're talking about signing Shohei Otani for the
next eight, nine, ten, eleven years, he's going to pitch
and hit for somebody again. So does the final number
that he signs for come down a little bit?

Speaker 2 (01:32):
I mean, maybe he's not.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Going to pitch in twenty twenty four, so maybe a
factor that probably misses the first month hitting as a
DH in twenty twenty four, but he's still going to
hit the market as an Aaron Judge type hitter who's
younger than Aaron Judge when Judge hit free agency, and
with the possibility you're getting an ACE and I think
a probability starting in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
So that's my take. Joe, you know what makes this
guy tick?

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Give me kind of your take when you first heard
about show Hey going down and not pitching for the
rest of this year.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah, it's awful.

Speaker 4 (02:05):
I mean, he's having the probably the most historic season
every surpassing things he's done in the past.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
So it's too bad with that.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
The industry needs him, They love him, the fans love him.
What he's done to recreate interest in our game is incomparable. Actually,
it's just everything that he's done.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
So yeah, all of that.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
Having said all that is moving it forward. Okay, I'm
just a little surprised a little bit that he continuing
to hit based on what may happen next year. In
other words, I would think that if you were there
to shut it down now, if in fact he needs
surgery to do that, now shut it down now, then

(02:46):
permit him at least to hit next year, knowing that
he's not going to pitch next year. So there's something
to be said about that. The longer he waits, he
may miss the first part of the year, and again,
will that impact his worth?

Speaker 3 (03:00):
I think.

Speaker 4 (03:02):
When it comes to evaluating how much you want to
pay him next year, there might be some impact, like
you suggested, but there also may be like these incredible
amount of incentives built into his contract for when he
comes back as a pitcher.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
Now, I know you've.

Speaker 4 (03:17):
Said that, and I believe that he will pitching him,
but there's still some considerations there because when he came
back after the first one, I saw him in twenty twenty,
and it's not like he just got back on a
horse and just started throwing the ball like he had
in the past, So even though he comes back, there
still might be a building period to that. I know
it's twenty twenty five, and maybe he doesn't pitch like

(03:37):
he can until the middle of that year. So there's
a lot of uncertainties about this. He's still going to
be great. He's going to come back and hit and
pitch again. Yes, how do you determine what you want
to give him for that? I think there's going to
be a lot of people at organizations clamoring around same numbers,
But then there may be one outlier that just goes
above and be honest, is you know the heck with

(03:58):
that we want him, We're going to pay him like
he's well. I think you have to evaluate him, you know,
two ways he's not well. Then if there's some people
that are going to say, we're just gonna evaluate him
as though he's well because we believe he's going to
be that again and we want him. So there's a
lot of uncertainty with this, But he will be back.
He'll be back as a hitter and a pitcher and
they'll do both really well.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, you do make a good point, Joe, about when
these guys come back off these surgeries, We should not
expect them to just hit the ground running, right, And
I think it's especially true with second Tommy John surgeries.
Now we don't know for sure if he's going to
have one. He does have a tear, so let's assume
for the moment that there is a surgery coming for
show Hey. Those are called revisions, these second Tommy John surgeries,

(04:39):
and the statistics will tell you that the recovery period
is longer generally about an average of twenty one months,
believe it or not, and that the rate of return
to the same level of play is much lower after
the second Tommy John surgery than the first Tommy John surgery.
And generally you're also going to find that the amount

(05:00):
of workload a pitcher can take after the second Tommy
John surgery is lower. You're seeing that with a guy
like Nathan Ivaldi. Yes, he's pitching again with the second
Tommy John surgery. He's had one qualified season since his
second Tommy John surgery. So there is an attrition factor,
there's no question about it. But again, I just think
Shohey is such a fantastic hitter.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
He's such a gait attraction.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Like really, the game has not seen in a very
long time that the teams that want shohey Atani or
the teams that wanted him before this tour, they still
want him and the price is still going to get
really high.

Speaker 4 (05:38):
Well, I agree with all that, it's just a matter
of how much do they want to risk these different groups,
and I'm sure they're going to be privy to all
this Stocker information. How bad is this terror?

Speaker 3 (05:50):
And that's another thing. I mean, like.

Speaker 4 (05:53):
The fact that there's not been revealed that he needs
surgery or not. I mean, how often do guys not
get surgery with something like this and event surely returned
to what they had been. I I don't even know
what that number might be, but it's got to be low,
so you almost have to assume surge is going to occur.
And again just to wait, wait, wait, that's the part
I don't quite get to mean. I think there are
like eleven out on the wild card or something like

(06:13):
that right now. And I know, you know, just from
his perspective, he's so proud and maybe chasing numbers that
had not been done before. Possibly, But I'm just be
curious representation wise, what the discussions, like, what are the
reasons to continue along this avenue without really prepping for

(06:35):
the future. I'm just curious about that, even to the
point where I guess he refused an MRI originally. Whatever
the the different things I'm hearing that he had the MRIs,
you know, possibly got a tear, and he's still playing.
All these things just are a little bit and congruent
to me based on my experiences in the past.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
So he sounds like he's got a big.

Speaker 4 (06:54):
Voice in what's going on right now, which I guess
is appropriate because it's him, it's his it's his career,
and he's the best. So but I still believe everything
I'm hearing is best suited for him to stop playing
right now, get this thing done.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
And get back to being Showhy as soon as possible.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Well, Joe, you know, you know firsthand, you lived it.
Show Hey's going to do what he wants to do.
He's on his own program, and yes, he wants to play.
It's as simple as that. And you look at the
standings and you say, you know, listen, if you're being
really honest, these games are not meaningful for the Angels, right,
and why not go ahead and get it.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
But I do think it's this simple.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
He loves to play the game of baseball, whether that's
chasing numbers or just being out there and playing baseball.
He wants to continue to do that while he can,
and he can right now as a hitter. Now, the
last time this happened, he had his Tommy John surgery
on October one and he didn't get back into the
lineup until sometime in May the following year. So yes,
by continuing to play, let's say he plays September, right,

(07:57):
he's actually punting April of next year for whoever his
next team is. And that's assuming all things well as
they did last time, agreed.

Speaker 4 (08:06):
I mean, that's that's what we're talking about here. It's
got to be like a multi layered conversation would show
the Angels front office and.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
Of course his representation.

Speaker 4 (08:15):
I think primarily right now it's between show Hey and representation,
even more so than the organization itself, based on the
looming free agency. So it's again typically with him, it's
like it's a first time situation.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
There's really no precedent to all of this.

Speaker 4 (08:31):
And again, I just listen, I want what's best for him.
I want him to continue to do this all baseball
does so.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
And let me.

Speaker 4 (08:40):
Conclude with this, I mean, he's really smart. I think
that part of this is even though they are out
of it, he doesn't think that they're out of it completely.
So if he gets to the point where he's totally
convinced that they're done, that he may choose to do
something else. I just he's so loyal to his group

(09:01):
and interact so well with the group, and he so
much wants to win.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
Think think that's still part of the equation to him.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Well, that leads us to another subject, and we're talking
about pitching injuries, Joe, and that is pitching development and
trying to keep these guys healthy.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
You know.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Another news of last week, of course, we had Stephen
Strasburg un officially announcing his retirement from the game. And
we all know famously the operations shutdown for Steven Strasburg
when the Nationals sat him down as a young pitcher
because they did not want to keep adding on innings
to his yearly jump. And that was a team that

(09:36):
was in the postseason and they did so without Stephen
Strasburg for preventative reasons. We also saw Tony Gonsolin of
the LA Dodgers now shut down Tommy John surgery and
he joins Dustin May, who's already had Tommy John surgery
and now has a forearm flexer issue. We'll see what
happens if he needs a second surgery as well. So

(10:00):
let me give you some numbers, Joe, on these young
pitchers comes to Gonsolin in May. Gonsolin to May, and
the Dodgers system combined have thrown three hundred and fifteen
professional games. Neither one has ever thrown one hundred and
ten pitches in a game. They've exceeded one hundred pitches
between the two of them only three times in three

(10:23):
hundred and fifteen professional games, and guess what, they still
broke down. So I don't know where you're at, Joe,
in terms of what we're doing with young pitchers. And
there's some other young pitchers we're going to get into
here who're getting to the big leagues with ridiculously low
pitch count totals. I know it's a big subject and

(10:43):
there's some science involved here, and maybe there's some pseudoscience
as well, but it seems to me, we're getting these
pitchers to the major leagues. We're not extending them at all.
When I say extending them, I'm talking about pitching a
sixth inning or getting to one hundred pitches even and
they're still breaking down. We all see the rates every
year with these pitchers and injuries you've seen to change

(11:04):
in the arc of your career, Joe, I'd like to
get your thoughts on it.

Speaker 4 (11:08):
Yeah, that is multi layered, right, I mean, I don't
even know where to begin with that. Let's just say
say that I don't agree with the limiting the number
of innings and pitches that a guy throws in the
minor leagues at the point that he never develops. You know,
even in our book, The Book of Joe, you chronicle
different situations. Even as a minor league manager, wh I
permitted some young pitchers to throw way more than that

(11:31):
number and they survived and they pitched well in the
big leagues.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
I think a part of it, first of all.

Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, staying with that vein, if you want to teach
a young man how to pitch and get him beyond
the hundred pitch mark and get him into the seventh inning,
eighth inning, let him pitch, Let him learn how to
get out of jams, let him, let him learn how
to pitch when things just aren't, you know, perfect, It's
not always going to be perfect.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
You're going to be sort of things are going to
be bothering you.

Speaker 4 (11:56):
And to think that you're always going to feel hundred
percent well and get out there every fifth or sixth day,
that is a bad assumption.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
It just doesn't work that way.

Speaker 4 (12:04):
So you got to learn at some point how to
work through these little lakes and pains and how to
be creative and how to get guys out That a
part of the game. I mean, we rely so much
on this velocity driven system right now, and that's part
of the injuries, I think, is the fact that you know,
the way they're teaching guys, they're not teaching they're just
teaching them to throw hard. Like put a mattress up
against my wall over there, take two cro hoops and

(12:25):
throw as hard as you can. We're going to increase
your velocity and spin rate.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
That is such a bad method, and you're just you're
just building them to get hurt and not building them
to pitch. So I think there's again there's so many
different things with this I like.

Speaker 4 (12:37):
I like the idea, even in even rookie ball, yeah,
I don't want my guys going.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
More than maybe one hundred pitches and rookie ball. I
get that, and I listen.

Speaker 4 (12:46):
I was part of the development of Kirk McCastle or
Bono Lugo, Bobby Kipper, all these dudes at young ages
coming out of college in high school, and we did
not We weren't so restricted, and these guys made it
through it and did really well as they moved further along.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
We didn't have. And when you said science, I think
it is pseudo signs.

Speaker 4 (13:04):
Quite frankly, there's no there's no way to predict when
a guy's going to get injured other than if he
has a bad delivery, his armstroke is bad and he's
trying to throw too hard and he comes out of
his delivering the latter part of the game. That to
me is a predicator regarding whether guy's going to get
injured or not. So I would much prefer a more
aggressive approach. I guess is the way to put it.

(13:24):
Start him out slowly, but really be cognizant of building
them up a ball high AAA whatever is remaining in
the minor leagues right now. I build up arm strength,
make them throw long toss and have him pitch the
adversity and have them finished games, have them walk off
the mound and shake hands with the catcher and everybody
joining on the mound there to congratulate them pitching a
complete game and understanding how to do this. I think

(13:46):
that's important. And with that, you're going to build better bullpens.
You're not going to burn out bullpens every two three
years because guys are just trying to three hundred miles
an hour and getting hurt.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
There's so many things that are interconnected with this.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
Like I said, we could take it one topic at
a time, but yeah, I believe in in a different
developmental system them. I don't believe that what they're saying
is accurate. It's just a it's just a safe method
based on if the guy throws too many pitches, he's
going to get hurt. My god, if a guy throws
too many pitches, he might build up arm strengths.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
So it works both ways.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
That's a great point, and especially it's been all thirty
teams treating every pitcher the same way when it comes
to those workloads. And I don't think either one of
us really likes that one size fits all approach. But
you know, we had Glenn Flisich on this show a
while back, Joe, and remember we talked about this where
it used to be the two biggest red flags for
pitching injuries were overuse and poor mechanics. Well, very few

(14:44):
pictures if anybody gets overused. I think we can say
that very safely. And the game has really gotten a
lot better with mechanics because of technology, and we can
break down these pitching deliveries and know where the stress
points are and address them and what's happening And this
isn't his words all paraphrase. We've done such a better
job as an in industry cleaning up mechanics. And I

(15:07):
think over over correcting on workload, that we are teaching
guys to throw harder, and that now has become the
red flag, which is velocity, which is redlining every time
you go out there. You're talking about is chasing velocity,
and that's where the injuries are coming from.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
It.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
It's not that the system of limiting guys innings in
the minor leagues and pitch counts, that's not saving pictures
from anything. So I think the industry has to relook,
you know about what is the attrition rate for these
young pictures.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
When you talk about teaching mechanics, who's doing the teaching
and what is the basis for their teachings. You know,
a lot of this has to do with stick figures
and slow motion video and all this other kind of stuff.
That young people might be able to attempt to accumulate
a databank mentally and try to watch a picture pitch
may backtracked. They're not watching the picture pitch and trying

(16:01):
to correct them. They're watching a picture pitch. Then they
go and they turned to an iPad and then attempt
to imparts some wisdom. I was around Marcel Latschman, I
was around Joe Coleman as two examples. I was around
mister Paul Paul. I was around some really good pitching
coaches that were outstanding and regarding correcting deliveries not just
in a bullpen session, but also real time in the game.

(16:24):
And that's where it's really pertinent, too pertinent. I don't
know that, Listen, I'm not indicting everybody, but I'm just
telling you, if you haven't had the experience to really
do these kind of things, I just believe that you're
going to do in game based on your vision as
compared to like a lot of these guys just need
to be able to look at an iPad and tell
you what they think. I was around the best, and

(16:46):
I believe in game corrections. I believe things get sideways
sometimes and you'll be able to That's what I want
my pitching to be able to go out there that
to settle the guy down, have him breathed, or if
he's legitimately seeing something, I'll tell you what. Junior Coleman
and Marcel Latchman outstanding at those two items and I
saw it. And teaching mechanics, I mean, I don't even

(17:09):
know if it's incongruent to say that I'm going to
teach them to throw as hard as they possibly can.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
I'm going to teach good mechanics.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
At the same time, I don't know that that doesn't
make sense to me, because when you're treating the guy
to like throw throw hard, throw hard, throw hard, and.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
That's really much the main objective.

Speaker 4 (17:26):
It's like hitters chasing exit velocity and launch angles, you're
really not learning how to hit. So these are the
things that I hear, Okay, I'll listen to it. But
at the end of the day, I know what Jimmy
Leffiever did. I know what Benny Hines did.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
I know what Rick Down did. I know what Marshall did.

Speaker 4 (17:42):
I know what Joe Coleman did, And we had eventually
there was some video that was brought into it. But
these guys were really good with eyeballs, man, and they're
really good in the dugout. They're really good when the
guy moses up alongside them. They don't have to look
at an iPad to take what they're seeing. They'll tell
you what they're seeing. So, yeah, I going to old
school a little bit, but I'm also a believer in
this other stuff.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
But I'm telling you, at the end of the day,
a good cod coach sees things by himself, independent of
a device.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, I'm not going to argue with you there.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
And I think it gets back to one of our
favorite words, Joe, and that's balance.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
Right.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
I do want that pitching coach who can see something
in real time and has got experience. But I also
know that if you looked at Steven Strasburg, if you
looked at Mark Pryor, and you put them now on
the technology we have today, you realize there were major
red flags in their deliveries. They were late getting that
ball loaded. In other words, that front foot is on

(18:36):
the ground, that ball is still not above the shoulder
at a loaded position. That's a red flag there that
I think a lot of people missed early on. And
they could have protected Steven Strasburg all they wanted in
terms of pitch counts. But when you've got that kind
of a flaw and you're stressing the shoulder and eventually
the elbow by being a late loader, you're going to

(18:56):
get hurt.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
It's as simple as that.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
And I think with technology we can jump on some
of those things early and smooth out some of those things.
So I think, yeah, I think a balance is the
best way to go.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
Let me just if I may on that one with
Steven Strasburg, which this guy when he was good, was
really good.

Speaker 4 (19:14):
That's got to go back to when he's like twelve
or thirteen or fourteen. I think, yes, it's hard. It's
hard to take an armstroke like they're doing with Giolito.
They've done with Giledo in with the White Sox coupiers
go with that abbreviated pull back with the raking of
the ball, which I kind of like. But to just
change somebody's armstroke and become a big league player and
think you're going to be successful with it, man, that's

(19:35):
not easy to do.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Not easy, especially when the guy is having success.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
Of course.

Speaker 4 (19:40):
I mean, if there's a lot on it. I like
the idea of like really accomplish players. If there's any
video of them when they were in high school, as
an example, hitting or throwing the baseball, I'd love to
see video of that, and then see a video of
them now.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
I would bet high.

Speaker 4 (19:56):
Percentage wise what they look like as a senior in
high schools, what they look like is twenty seven year
old in the big league, regarding how they threw the ball,
how they swung the bat, how they start at the bat,
et cetera. Once you build in those body movements, man,
it's hard. It's hard to change that stuff. You could
do like little tweaks, you could do like minor adjustments,
but it's hard to make mate to do major surgery.
The big thing, the difference to me, and we don't

(20:17):
talk about this enough, is what they're thinking. And that's
where like a Kenriviza was so invaluable, and so is
Harvey Dorfin in that particular growth group, Carl Keel, because
it's about what we think it's ability to breathe, it's
about slowing things down, which permits me to see things better.
Nobody talks about that enough, and I think, to me,
that's a real underrated method of teaching this game, or

(20:39):
teaching any sport. So all again, balance, all these things
have to be included, but we're so focused on I
watch a game and the right away a guy hits
the ball heart and they're going to tell me how
how hard he hit it? What was the miles prober? God,
that's so boring to me, I swear. And the same
thing with a picture. I mean, god, he's throwing ninety
nine miles an hour.

Speaker 3 (20:57):
Good.

Speaker 4 (20:57):
But if it's straat and it's and it's right there,
I've seen some guys get really turned around easily with that.
It's just it's not as important to being a good picture,
a good hitter and being able to breathe and being
beat your opposition mentally. It's not always about beating them physically.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Joe, we're gonna take a quick break and we got
we come back. I've got a story.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
I think you're going to like something happened Monday night
in Kansas City that hasn't happened in two years.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Believe it or not. I'll tell you that story right
after this.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
Cool.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
Okay, Joe. This is Kansas City.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
They're playing Pittsburgh Monday night and Johann Oviedo, twenty five.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Year old pitcher for the Pirates, is just dealing.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
He's through eight innings and he's got ninety seven three
ninety something pitches. Derek Shelton, the manager, and Oscar Marine,
the pitching coach, they're prepared as the game is today,
to shut him down.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
That's it. Nice job, shake his hand, you're done.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Rodriguez, their young catcher, goes up to Oviedo and said,
let's go.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
You're finishing this game.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
And the manager of the pitching coach, to their credit,
took that as a cue from their young catcher and said,
you know what, Let's send him out there for the ninth.
Johann Alvito goes one, two three in the ninth inning,
finishes with one hundred and twelve pitches, complete game. Huge
hug after the game, uh Rodriguez and Ovieda. They said

(22:31):
it was the best hug they've ever had in their lives.
It was just a great moment for a team. Let's
face it's not playing for anything. Let me tell you,
Joe age twenty five, pitcher throwing nine innings at one
hundred and twelve pitches. It's the first time that's happened
in two years. So again, credit starts with the catcher

(22:52):
and he Rodriguez. This guy's just full of energy. Reminds
me of a young Wilson Contreras. And credit to the
manager and the pitching coach as well for not being
so locked in to some imaginary limit of a pitch
count for Johann al Vieda. And how do you think
Johan Johann Alvieda Field felt after the game the next morning,

(23:12):
after throwing a CGH and his catcher bringing him through
that ninth inningk.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
That is a perfect game. That's the first perfect game
of the year. I love hearing all that stuff, the innings,
the number of pitches that could really.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
Catapult this young pitcher. Definitely when he gets in trouble
and in a latter part of the game in the future,
he's going to know how to work through that a
little bit more readily. He's gonna look for that finish
line every time he goes out there. That's going to
benefit the bullpen, that's going to benefit the team. There's
all these ancillary benefits that occur in that moment that
nobody wants to attempt to evaluate and construct.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
It's true. It's just true.

Speaker 4 (23:48):
I've had so many examples of that, and we've used
the Jake Ariota thing with in Minnesota several years ago.
But my thing was always like a couple years ago
with the Agels, I think I read Devers pitch a
complete game.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
At some point we had a no hitter. I know that,
but you just let these guys go, let him go
into the half of you.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
You always have somebody ready in the bullpen. You have
somebody playing catch, not necessarily standing up, but get them
get him close to being loose.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
We need this quickly. We'll do this.

Speaker 4 (24:19):
But when you give a young man an opportunity like this,
it could be life altering as a pitcher and organizationally. Hopefully,
I hope there wasn't a phone call afterwards with some.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Kind of concern about, well, you.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
Know, don't let that happen again kind of a thing. No,
I hope that did not happen because it's possibly that
it did. This is something again hopefully that the other
young pictures on that team notice and they want to
do also.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
By the way, in twenty eleven, Clayton Kershaw did it
four times.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
I think his career turned out Okay, yeah, it's not bad.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
So the other night, speaking of young pitchers, I saw
Jordan Wicks make his major league debut for the Cubs.
If you haven't seen him pitch, love his mechanics. He
has got a plus plus change up, kind of middling velocity.
He's a college kid, went to Kansas State, but man,
he's really really impressive in terms of his baseball IQ,

(25:14):
the cleanliness of his arm stroke and again he's blessed
with just a change up. He can tell you it's
coming and hitters still have trouble with it. It's really
that good. And looking at his career, Joe again, he
went to Kansas State, pitched three years there, pitched a
couple of years in the minor leagues. He made his
major league debut without ever throwing even ninety pitches as

(25:35):
a professional. He only went beyond five innings once in
the minor leagues. So I was talking to David Ross
about this, and you know, this is what teams do
quote unquote to keep pitchers healthy. Right, So now you
get to the major leagues and you know, ROSSI took
him out after five innings. A kid pitched great, first

(25:55):
three guys, he went home run, single walk, and after
that he goes fifteen.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
In a row.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
But Rossi, he took him out of the game obviously
because he's not really stretched out, and that's what he
is at this point in his young career.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
He's actually twenty four years old, so he's not a baby.
Ross he talked about.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
This is how they were developing pitchers in the minor leagues,
relief pitchers under restrictions of being able to pitch only
twice a week in the minor leagues, and you get
to the major leagues, you better be ready to go
two three days in a row, three or four times
a week. So as a major league manager, you're inheriting
these guys who still have training wheels on. And if
you're in a pennant race like a David Ross boy,

(26:36):
it just seems like, you know, you got your hands
strung a little bit here in terms of how much
you can work with these kids. But anyway, I thought
that would really you know, it was very interesting to
see a kid brought up, a college pitcher who had
yet to throw ninety pitches as a professional, and there
he is making his major league debut.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
I mean, all this protectionism, I just really don't understand it.
And what you just said, there are two times a week,
for two times a week for relief that your man.
That's you know, I ran into those problems that the
latter part with the Angels be based on how they
wanted to protect relief pictures, and now they're going to
get hurt. And it's just it's it's not it's not true,

(27:15):
and it's not good. I'm just telling you right now,
it's not I don't know what, like you called it pseudoscience,
and I'm going to go with that. Regardless of how
we pitch pitchers, they still end up getting hurt. There's
there's no way to put a guy in a bubble
and predict that he's not going to get hurt if
we do this all the time. I don't believe that.
And and again with the the infrequency with relief pitchers

(27:35):
you do hamstring managers, it becomes increasingly more difficult, and
and and again. I've been I got to reference myself here,
but even back in the minor leagues, back in a
ball and even a double a midland.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
Whatever you keep it, you keep it charge.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
You know how many times a week a guy pitching,
how many pitches that he threw, and you knew how
much time to give him off.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
After he threw so many pitches or pitched a couple
of days in a row.

Speaker 4 (27:56):
You knew that it hasn't changed. You have to talk
to the player. Everybody's different. Some guys can handle greater workloads,
some guys cannot. They're not all the same. It's not
a cookie cutter in the industry or situation, but we're
trying to make it into one. You just can't always
apply an equation to a human being and think that
you have all the answers based on math or data.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
It's just not true.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
So Joe, let me ask you this, because you lived it.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
You saw some of the you know, guys get to
the big leagues who weren't really stretched out. You know,
you couldn't pitch them a third time through a lineup,
or they didn't know how to pitch to get out
of a jam a third time in the course of
a game. They were never allowed that opportunity. Here's a
comparison for you, because we don't need to go back
to the sixties and seventies. Right when guys are throwing
three hundred innings, we realized that was probably overkilled. Back

(28:43):
in the day, the game's completely different. There's more velocity. Okay,
how about let's compare Jordan Wicks to Sonny Gray. Okay,
Jordan Wicks at a college twenty first overall pick in
twenty twenty one. Ten years earlier, Sonny Gray at a
college Vanderbilt was the eighteenth pick. Sunny Gray's first full
two full seasons, the Miners through one hundred and fifty

(29:04):
two and one hundred and eighty two innings. In those
two years, Jordan Wicks has gone ninety four and ninety
six innings. Sonny Gray was averaging five point six innings
per start in the minor leagues. Ten years later, Jordan
Wicks is throwing three point nine and four point six
three point nine. He went beyond five innings once in

(29:29):
two years. Basically he was out of the most games
in the fourth inning because that's what was scripted.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Now, you tell me, Joe, what has changed. We're talking
only ten years between Sonny Gray and Jordan Wicks.

Speaker 4 (29:44):
I mean, the expectation is we only want them to
go four or five innings.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Because we want to go to the bullpen. We don't
want them to pitch a third time. Two.

Speaker 4 (29:50):
These are all hard and fast lines that have been
drawn in the baseball dirt sand so that they're developing.
So if this kid only goes that many innings per
in the minor leagues, that's fine. That's fine because we
still we want to row take this group of relief
pictures in the latter part of the game, especially with
the win.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
I mean it's always funny too, Like if you're losing.

Speaker 4 (30:11):
It's easier to go longer with certain guys, but when
you're winning, they want them out of there immediately.

Speaker 3 (30:16):
At a certain point, it's not right. Sonny Gray is
a great example. I love him as a picture man.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
He had those couple of tough years, but boy, this
guy is really good and.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
He's not that big. He's not a tall guy. Strom
was the same way.

Speaker 4 (30:28):
There's some guys that are just strong and they repeat
their delivery as well. So I just think when you
hear that story like you just gave it to me.
The front office or front office is that's all they
want out of their starters. And I think when you
nurture starters like that quite frankly enough to pay them
as much and then you could you rely on relief
pictures even were there's a lot of built ins here
that aren't as obvious and aren't spoken about enough. But

(30:52):
there's different reasons why organizations like this method, well beyond
just the fact that the third time through is a problematic.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
All right, we're gonna talk more about young pictures here.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Kyle Harris, I don't know if you caught him for
the San Francisco Giants, punched out eleven in his second start.
He a lefty taking out a high school in twenty twenty.
That's the COVID draft obviously. And listen, they've had governors
on him as well. Seventy one pro starts. He's thrown
a hundred pitches just twice. In the miners in twenty

(31:23):
twenty three, he threw more than five innings just once.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
So here he is in the rotation for the Giants.
They're in a pennant race.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
He was so efficient striking out eleven that he actually
took the ball into the seventh inning, and Gabe Kapler
talked about being nervous watching this guy as he's just
mowing down the Reds. But it made me think. You've
got the Cubs with Jordan Wicks. You've got the Giants
with Kyle Harrison. You've got the Marlins with Urdy Perez,
you got the Orioles with Grayson Rodriguez, the Mariners with

(31:54):
Bryce Miller, the Astros with Hunter Brown. These are all
teams in a pennant race who've got these young pitchers
in their rotations who still have their training wheels on.
So if you're the manager and your job is to
get the team into the postseason, how do you handle
these guys down the stretch.

Speaker 4 (32:12):
Well, you probably have to handle them down the stretch
like you've handled them all year. And even I think
you mentioned or alluded to it earlier, the longer season
people getting fatigued or more tired.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
At the end of the year. That's just obvious. Everybody does.

Speaker 4 (32:24):
But if you've not been stretched out to a certain point,
the chances are you're going to be that way. And
they always try to limit innings or pitches so that
they could get more meaningful innings out of them in
September and October.

Speaker 3 (32:35):
That's not necessarily what's going to happen.

Speaker 4 (32:37):
It's just just by playing longer, that extra month or
two months mentally just beats the crap out.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
Again, that's not even considered. It's just the fact that
if we limit the number of pitches that they've thrown,
almost automatically, they're going to be successful when it comes
to the end of the year when everything is dialed up,
everything is dialed up, and they're dialed up mentally.

Speaker 4 (32:55):
Man, And it's really comes down to that. The mentally
tough groups are the groups you really got to be
careful with because they're not going to quit, they're not
going to give up, and they're gonna be very dangerous
in the latter part of the season.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
So these kind of kids.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
Right here, Yeah, they're all got great arms, they've all
but they're they're not established. They haven't done this for
a period of time. Uh, They're they're they're short lived.
To this point, you have to see this again over
over time to to really believe that they can do
this repeated on an annual basis.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
They can be good to great and they talked about Kershaw.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
You've got to build into this greatness and it just
doesn't happen overnight. A couple months of success or maybe
one or two years in the minor leagues of success
does not equate into becoming this this, this animal and
a major league level. And that's that's that's the assumptions
that are going to be made by limiting them. Her
pitches that he pitches, a number of appearances that he makes,

(33:50):
that all of a sudden he's going to figure it
out and be great. These these are the things that
timmy are counterintuitive. But more than anything, the length of
the season heads up. It's a mental grind where than
it is a physical one.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, one last stat for you here on pitchers twenty
five and younger throwing one hundred and ten pitches. It's
only been forty six of those games this year. Just
ten years ago. Again, we're not going back to Asian
ancient times, folks. Just ten years ago there were six
hundred and thirty seven of those games. The game has
changed very quickly. And one more pitching injury. You got

(34:22):
to mention you, darbish, Joe. I know you had him,
you like him and really nobody can spin a baseball
quite like you. Darbish, his elbow now is barking for
a San Diego team, that's just I mean, listen, they
never got on track, and now this is probably it
for the Padres.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
They had a tough series against the Brewers. Now you lose, Darbish.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
You know, this is the team I thought could go
to the World Series, and on paper it certainly looked
that way, Joe. But I wanted to get your thoughts
on San Diego because we use that word chemistry a lot,
and it's sort of one of these things, like you
know when you see it right, And I look at
that San Diego team and the way things have just
not come together for them, and you look at the
way they play offensive team baseball, and it's non existent.

(35:02):
I'm gonna give you some numbers here for the Padres offense.
When they have two strikes this year, they're hitting one
sixty three. That's twenty second in baseball. You put runners
out there in scoring position, they hit two thirty. That's
twenty ninth in baseball. Only Oakland is worse. How about
late and close in games? They hit one p eighty five,

(35:25):
that's thirtieth in baseball. How about going to the opposite
field twenty two percent, that's twenty eighth in baseball, and
swinging at pitches in the zone. They're dead last in baseball.
So that tells you they take more strikes. I mean,
that's I mean, that's across the board offensive failure. For

(35:46):
a team that in the last decade, Joe, they've brought
back the same hitting coach only once they've gone through
I think the number is twelve hitting coaches in ten years.
That offense is broken. They haven't played team baseball. So
despite all the names on that star studded roster, they

(36:09):
never played team baseball. To me, that's a lack of chemistry.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
No question.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
And you know people always make fun of that. We
mock what we don't understand. If you've never been in
a position that you have to create this kind of
culture chemistry.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
Within a group.

Speaker 4 (36:23):
You're going to say that it's winning creates the chemistry.
Winning solves all problems. But how do you get to
that particular point? And I listen, I'm a big believer
in the creation of culture and chemistry. I believe I
have methods, I have thoughts, I have ideas on how
to do that. So I think if you've never been
in that position before, you kind of make light of that.

(36:45):
But I'm here to tell you it is true and
it does work. Now these hitters adaptations, there's no adaptations
happening within these at bats. It's just it sounds like
a one size fits all swings and we're not really
concerned about moving the baseball in different situations, being a
tougher route. And again, that's metal We could talk about
all the physical we want. That's a mental adjustment for me.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
I am going to move the ball. I am going
to hit the ball the opposite field. I am going
to get this run in somehow.

Speaker 4 (37:11):
That's as pertinent as any kind of physical approach you
could possibly think of.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
Last point, the firing of coaches. That always bothers me.

Speaker 4 (37:20):
Now there's sometimes a coach is I don't know, really
not good at what he does? Why, disinterested? Possibly, although
I've met very few coaches that are disinterested, Maybe inability
to connect, maybe hypercritical guys that to the point where
it really beats guys down, beats down their confidence, whatever.

(37:44):
But I get really annoyed when I see coaches getting
fired during the course of a season. And again it's
when that happens, somebody's got to be the escape whatever.
That's fine, but I think that's overblown. I don't think
it's necessary. I think within the players themselves that's really

(38:05):
where the magic lies. Whether whether or not the acquisitional
process it wasn't good, we over evaluated some people, or
within the group itself, there's no real leadership. It is
a lot of dignity guys that aren't into team concepts.
There's all these things that consider but never are. So
I am not into firing coaches. I don't quite understand
that unless you've made an absolute mistake, and you'll know that.

(38:27):
You'll know that actually very quickly. And then when it
comes to the players themselves, it's the mental adaptations during
the season. For me, physical mechanics should be taught less
and less.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
As the season goes along. In other words, you got
to talk a lot about it in spring training. I
get it. I'm in there, I was there.

Speaker 4 (38:43):
I think by the end of the season, at least
seventy five percent of your teaching, maybe eighty, maybe even
more than that. It's got to be a mental approaches
compared to a physical approach. So when it comes down
to hitting coaches. You know, if the guys it's mister
Goodrich and that's all he knows.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
Maybe I can see that getting old.

Speaker 4 (39:01):
But when you get a nice balance with your coaches
that able to see very quickly one thought, one word
to Tom and put them back in place. But I
could repeat my mental mechanics to you daily daily. I
could come back with the mental approach to you every day,
and I'm not going to wear you out. But if
I come back with the physical approach every day, I'm
going to wear you out.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
Joe, I'm glad you brought up that point about coaches
getting to blame much too quickly. I go back to
a conversation I had with Chad Mottola, the Rais hitting coach,
early in the season. The Rays were just on fire
the first couple of months in the season. They were
the best offensive team in baseball. And one of the reasons,
in his words, why they get off to a good start.
He said, listen, we have now some continuity here. You know,

(39:42):
the Rays, like a lot of teams, have kind of
flipped their roster a lot, but he was working with
the same group of guys and it's almost like that
college basketball coach. It's got you know, a couple of
point guards who are four year seniors. Right, You've got
things established, You've got culture established, and that matters. So
I think continuity with a staff having that message kind
of cement itself. And if you continually and you're getting

(40:05):
rid of coaches because you don't like the results, well
maybe that's more about your process than it is about
the coach. So I'm glad you brought that up. I'm
a big believer that there should be continuity. Like you said,
if there's certain rare cases where the guy has to
go because he's just not doing a good.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Job for whatever reason, yeah, that can happen.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
But you hired a guy because you believed he's good
and knowledgeable, and you have to sometimes let these things
take root.

Speaker 4 (40:30):
Just like players have to when they play with one another,
they get better as a group. But whether it's baseball, basketball,
we could talk about all different sports, the same thing
with the coaching staff. And I'm glad you brought that
up also because that is absolutely true. What Chad said
is great. It matters to the continuity within the coaching
staff when a season might break down or a player

(40:51):
too has a bad year. Again, somebody's got to be
blamed for this, and you never blame the player.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
So I like.

Speaker 4 (40:58):
I've had situations where I've been able to keep a
coaching staff together when you have as a manager enough
voice regarding who you can keep, who you cannot, who's
going to be in that room or who's not.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
That I would I would always choose to keep. And
like we just you just mentioned, it has to be
a real.

Speaker 4 (41:17):
Breakdown somewhere that would not would want me to not
want somebody in that room that I've had for a
couple of years. A coach's room could make and break success.
A perfect example the two thousand and two Angels. That
coaching staff for me was the best one that I've
ever been involved with from so Shawn down. And I've

(41:38):
had some great coaching staffs, and I've had some great
groups of Chicago, Tampa Bay and Anaheim. But that group there, Wow,
that group there made an impact on that team. That
group there, each position, each each group, each each department
head was so good at what they did. And I'll

(41:58):
tell you what, if you want some spirited pre series meetings,
sit in that room with Mickey Hatcher, Alfredo Griffin, Ronnie Rennicky, myself,
Buddy Black. You sit in that room, sit in that room,
and you want to hear some disagreements that I give
social credit because Sosh would take it because it would
get loud sometimes because Sosh and Ronnie and Mickey and

(42:19):
Alfredo had played together. So it's different. I mean, they knew,
they knew well enough.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
That they can get a little bit louder than normal.

Speaker 4 (42:25):
So those are the things that make a great coaching staff.
The ability to argue independently of any kind of noise
from even from upstairs or any kind of Scott and report.
That was a difference maker for us, and it was
a big part of the two thousand and two Angels
winning the World Series.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Great story, great coaching staff as well. Man, I remember
that staff. They really stood out, and not just because
they won the World Series. They were that good. And
of course many of those went on to be successful
major league managers. We're going to take one last break here, Joe,
when we get back. This is really interesting. There's something
that was said by Kelly Stafford, the wife of Bram's

(43:03):
quarterback Matt Matthew Stafford, that I can't wait to ask
you about Okay.

Speaker 3 (43:07):
I'm curious.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Now, Hey, welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast.
And it was not on another podcast where Kelly Stafford,
the wife of Rams quarterback Matthew Stafford, talked about the

(43:28):
disconnect between Matthew and the younger players on the team. Now,
keep this in mind, Matthew Stafford is only thirty five
years old, right, he's young, but in NFL terms, he's
not young. So he's got these twenty one twenty two
year old kids joining the team out of college, maybe
first second year. And Kelly mentioned this that he feels

(43:52):
like he can't connect with them. And part of the
reason why, and I'm going to oversimplify it, is the
phones that the players, these younger guys who are immediately
on their phones. Whereas Matthew Stafford came up, and again
where he's not that old, but he came up at
a time where guys after practice would sit around, they'd

(44:14):
play ping pong, they would talk football, they would talk
whatever it would be. And that kind of connection, at
least for Matthew Stafford, now isn't there because everybody is
retreating to their own private space with a phone. I
thought that was very fascinating Joe, I think it's a
great observation.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
It's not saying that it's bad, it's worse, it's better.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
It's just different in how things have changed in terms
of locker room camaraderie. You just talked about your coaching
staff with the two Angels, and I can give you
great stories about teams like the nineteen ninety three Phillies
and back in the day when they had beer in
the clubhouse, those guys would sit around after the game
and they would talk baseball for hours before they went home.

(44:59):
Nobody was in a hurry to leave the clubhouse. So, Joe,
you saw this hard to change. You're a guy who
started reading Millennials for Dummies to try to connect with
these guys. Give me an idea of how much a
major league clubhouse has changed in terms of connecting with
the younger player.

Speaker 4 (45:18):
Well, it's all true regarding what Stafford had said. I mean,
but it's not just in a major league clubhouse or
in an NFL locker room. At society in general, conversation
has gone by the wayside and everybody wants to communicate
through thumbs. And I hope this the story applies. But
a couple of years ago. I wanted it.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
I did.

Speaker 4 (45:39):
I did do like a fraternity party at Lafayette before
the loafayat Lee High game, and I wanted to support
of the school. And I got to know the president,
Alison Barley at the time, and I told Alison what
I'd like to do, and I wanted to get a
lot of the students to attend this party because they
hadn't really been doing that, and she kind of snickered
at me, but she was into it, but she said,

(45:59):
it's hard to get them to leave their the domicile
there there they're doing whatever because all they want to
do is communicate via their cell phones. To go out
and socialize in a fraternity house or anywhere on campus
orrock campus was a thing of the past because they
just they don't know how to interact. They really don't

(46:20):
know how to communicate with one another face to face
because it's all done via technology.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
Now.

Speaker 4 (46:26):
You know, it's maybe not as severe in a major
league locker room, because of course there's some face to face,
but I think they've been so this particular age group
has been so trained to utilize this this little device
to communicate, and that's what they pretty much do postgame.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
Guys used to go out. You talk about that coaching
staff with the Angels.

Speaker 4 (46:48):
Man, we went out almost every night on the road,
just tug out, you know, just talked a lot, a
little couple of beers, whatever. But now they may go
to one of the guy's rooms and play video games.
That's a big thing right now, and at least I
like that from that social perspective. It's not the post
game in the clubhouse. We got to stay here and
talk and have a beer whatever. That's pretty much gone

(47:09):
by the wayside. But it is at least go back
to the hotel and get in a room and play
video games whatever. But at least there's some that part
of socialization. It's every generation, if we want to. My
dad hated it what I did. My dad did not
like my hair, he did not like, you know, what
I did back in the day. And it's the way

(47:29):
we're in my uniform whatever. It's just it's it's all generational.
So I don't I don't worry.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
About that as much.

Speaker 4 (47:35):
And when I got done with the Millennials for Dummies thing,
I realized and it just comes down to communication regardless.
So I would attempt to text more I would, you know,
different things I.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
Was sending, like guys emails with photographs that I would
capture on video.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
With their hitting as an example, or something that I
saw that I thought they needed to address, So I
would communicate with them text wise or email wise so
that they could technologically see what I was talking about.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
And I thought that.

Speaker 4 (48:02):
That would maybe make it easier and more acceptable to
have that face to face conversation. So it's really the same,
and it's really different. How do you communicate as human being?

Speaker 3 (48:13):
Me?

Speaker 4 (48:14):
How do you and I think we got If you
have skills with that, you still bring it to bear.
You still bring what you now knowing what you feel
is the right way to do it, but be ready
and able to adapt to the other way too, because
they get everything they being the millennial group gen Z,
whatever they get, their communication needs to be done that

(48:38):
way because that's what they've learned how to do.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
Agree with it, don't agree with it, I don't care.
It's just the way it is. So for me, it
was about adaptability and I tried to do that.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah, Joe, I think your twenty sixteen Cubs team, and
again not just because they won a World championship but
that was the epitome of team chemistry, right, and probably
the Game seven meeting with Jason Hayward getting the team together,
where you know, the players under your guidance were empowered
to do something like that on their own, whereas and
this is no knock on Cleveland. I remember Francisco Lindor

(49:07):
telling me the story that during that delay, they all
just kind of retreated to their own spaces. He went
back into the weight room and took a little bit
of a nap. He looked up and he saw the
plastic protective sheets over the lockers in case that Cleveland
won the championship, which was kind of a just bad karma,
I guess. But he said, we should have gotten together

(49:28):
and talked among ourselves, like hey, let's reset, and they
just kind of didn't. So and it's not a knock
on Cleveland. That's probably the natural reaction when the game
hits a pause like that. But to your guys credit,
and it didn't happen by accident. You know this, Joe,
that there was enough invested person into person, player to
player in the course of six months that not just
enabled that to happen, but made it happen.

Speaker 4 (49:49):
One hundred percent. I agree with that totally. You threw
out Jason's name right there. I don't remember which spring
trending was specifically, but I was attempting to purchase a
phone booth, an old school phone booth, from eBay somewhere
in Texas. I was going to have it sent there,
and if you had to make a phone call, I
was going to try to get it set up somehow.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
Then you had to go to that phone booth to
make the phone call.

Speaker 4 (50:14):
So just like kind of like limit your ability to
do that ab I also talked to Jason about how
about if we did this. When you check in the morning,
you turn in your cell phone, you give it to VJ.
We put it in a lock box, and you cannot
pick it up until you leave at the end of
the day. And if there's any kind of an emergency,
you give your give your wife, whatever, your vj's phone umber,

(50:36):
they could call in a case of emergency. I still
would like to do that. I mean, if I ever
get an opportunity again, I want to bring that up.
You walk in the door, let's check these things in.
Here's a number to give to people that are important
to you that to call if in fact something is
an emergency and see if we can just live communicatively
the old fashioned way by talking to somebody eyeball to eyeball.

(50:57):
And Jason was all into it. He thought it was
a great idea and I just never got around to
getting it done. My fault, my bad, as they say, so, yeah,
it's an interesting thing, and to empower people to feel comfortable.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Doing that, knowing that I wouldn't care. I mean, of
course I want you to do that. Do we have
to go ask Joe to do that? And of course not.
You guys are grown ups.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
You guys are guys A Major leaguers. You guys have families,
your fathers. Go do it if you see that as
being necessary, So you're right. I was pleased that Jason
felt comfortable doing that. Ab at some point I'd like
to see the check into the cell phone as you
walk into the clubhouse.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
Very interesting, a great idea. It'd be hard to pull off,
but I like the way you think.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
As usual.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Hey, Joe, this is why we call this the most
interesting podcast on the planet, because man, we had some
deep dives today, so the pressure's on you to take
us out with something worthy of this episode.

Speaker 4 (51:53):
Yeah, and I think it works for mister Jackie Robinson
really talked about this a lot. Read Lee Low and
Fish's book about the ferocious gentleman mister Branch Ricky.

Speaker 5 (52:03):
And I was so impressed with that, and it took
me back in time to the you know, nineteen sixteen
or so, I think, when Ricky was a player coach
and player manager with the Saint Louis Browns until he
got to the Cardinals eventually, and of course him and
Jackie Robinson, and you would imagine that this quote comes
from Jackie himself, and God, I wish I.

Speaker 4 (52:22):
Had met this man, but I think it applies kind
of what we're talking about. A life is not important
except in the impact it has on other lives. A
life is not important except in the impact it has
another lives. Communication, getting to know one another, good deeds,
great culture, all these different things. So that's what we need,

(52:43):
not only in the game but everywhere else in our lives,
you know, to get out there and actually go eyeball
to eyeball in a conversation, sits socially, have a pretty
good time, and it just could just be about having
a pretty good time. I'd love to see more of that.
I try to nurture that here in Sugar Loafe. I
got a great patio. I've had a lot of folks
over the course of this summer, just for if you're

(53:05):
out of the keg Raider, maybe a burger, maybe a
pizza night whatever, watching a ballgame outside on a tube.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
Yeah, we have to communicate. The impact we have another
lives really sets us.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
Apart, truly, words to live by. Thanks Joe, We'll see
you next time.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
It's my pleasure brother, see you bye.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
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