July 17, 2025 • 50 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci recap the All-Star game and the unique finish with a 'Swing-Off!' Tom takes us into the clubhouses after the game and the special encounters between players. Joe reveals some of his favorite moments from around the game. How did Tom feel about the ABS challenge system that was used five times? Joe comments on the Hank Aaron tribute and remembers when he saw the home run record be broken. We wrap up with the coming sale of the Rays and their future in Tampa.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, and welcome back to the latest episode of
the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Verducci and
of course Joe Madden. And this is our All Star edition, Joe.
(00:26):
It's All Star Break and it's also on the heels
of the ninety fifth All Star Game and a one
of a kind All Star game as well, a game
decided by a swing off. I think we need to
come up with a better name for it. But yeah, anyway,
they're going swing off mini home run derby to decide
what was a six to six game. Joe. There's a
(00:46):
lot of places we can go and we'll go with this,
but I first want to start with your gut reactions
from watching this unique All Star game.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, it is unique, and it's all this stuff is
good because it is. It was an exhibition. It's not
a game that we've talked about this before. There was
nothing that counted about it other than entertainment value, which
was really big regarding MLB in the future of MLB,
So it really scored heavily with that. So another circumstances
to either trough out the strike zone, the challenge system
(01:17):
to run into extra innings and decided the way it
was decided. It all worked and it's interesting and I
was really led me to my quote of the day.
I'm not going to tip on this yet, but I
heard it. I saw an interview with the commissioner, who
I do like, and I thought he did a really
good job. I went to explaining everything, and I'm happy
that he's feeling some success from all of this. But yeah,
(01:38):
the fact that there was an exhibition purely permits experimentation, and
I think that was good. I mean, if you're gonna experiment,
that's when you do. It's like a spring training game,
and then from that you learn and you grow. I
would like to think that we're not going to eventually
turn to a shootout or whatever at the end of
a ball game in order to win it. And I
read some of the players comments because nobody wants to
(01:59):
spend or stick around longer than they have to, and
I wish we could get by that kind of a concept.
But no, overall, under the circumstances, entertainment value everything. It
really resonated on all fronts.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, you found the right word, Joe, Entertainment, right, I mean,
that's what the All Star Game is. I mean the
All Star game we grew up with, and I've been
there in clubhouses where the league president, when there was
such a thing, would come in and say how important
it was to try to win the game. Were a
long way from that. Is pure entertainment, is showing off
the skills of the best players in the world on
this stage in the midsummer when baseball kind of has
(02:34):
the sports world to itself, and it succeeded on that
level in this game. Here's a little bit behind the
scenes in terms of production on this because this rule,
if you will, the tiebreaker rule, has been in place
for about three or four years now, and quite frankly,
a lot of people were kind of scared about what
it would look like because everybody wants to see, for instance,
Judge and Otani in that final group, right, But you
(02:57):
can't have guys who start the game and leave the
game two three hours earlier go up there and start
swinging for the fences to decide the All Star Game.
That's just silly. So you have to pick guys who
are not starters, who are still their bodies are still warm,
and basically the guys who are still on the field
at the end of the game. So by definition, you're
(03:18):
not going to get the most popular players to take
those swings. So there was a lot of concern that
it might be anti climactic to have those kind of players,
not the A list celebrities. If you will decide the
All Star Game right, it makes sense. But then once
this thing, we got this to the point where okay,
we're going, we have a time, we're going to do this.
(03:39):
I looked behind me down on the field and I
noticed all the players were walking out of the dugout,
onto the warning track and even the grassy area between
the dugout and home plate, and they were all standing.
Trek Skoobel, the starting pitcher three and a half hours earlier,
came out in his street clothes. Those players bought in
and were so excited about this. I knew before the
(04:02):
first swing, this is going to be cool. The players
made it. We're talking Joe about it. We don't have
to go through the names. But a lot of players
before the All Star Game said, nice being an All Star,
But I don't want to go right. I'd rather have
the time off. I'm the rest. I don't want to
pitch whatever, I'm gonna stay home. The guys who are
there in a game that did not matter, really cared
(04:24):
about the ending of that game, and that's why it worked.
I mean, I'm telling you, Joe, it was like American
Legion Baseball out there watching these American and National leaguers
rooting for one another, for a team put together for
one night in a game that meant absolutely nothing. The
love of the game, the competition really came to the
four and that's why it worked. One of those ideas
(04:45):
that on paper didn't sound so great, in practice it
was awesome.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Yeah, I get and the fans, Boughty and obviously too.
You know, you're right.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I mean, everybody wants time off this time of the year. However,
it's been my experience, even though you're tired, and when
you either selected to go to this game, as you're
part of the staff, as you were in the World
Series the previous year, there's a lot of times you
would just prefer go hitting like the beach or hitting
a hotel room for a couple of days and just
do nothing. You really get to that particular juncture, however,
(05:14):
the point is when you get to the event, it
all changes. It does if you find that energy. And
also the fact that they've extended the break by two
more days that is really important. It's that the four
days is not as important to everybody that does not
make the team, but it's really important to the guys
that do make the team. I've always felt that. And
then even for a while there they stretched into the Thursday,
(05:37):
which would have been tomorrow, they'd still be playing tomorrow,
which is not was never some teams with there was
never really good idea. So I think the fact that
they extended it to four days for everyone then permits
the greater acceptance I think by the players and the
staff itself, for Okay, even though we're here, we got
to go. Once we get there, all of a sudden
(05:59):
the adrenaline search takes over. But we also know we're
going to get two legit days off and then keep
going the Friday wherever you're playing at There was a
time that I always wanted to work out on Thursday
evening somewhere wherever. It's either if we're going to play
at home on the road, you wanted guys to get there.
Then you made it into an optional workout Thursday. But
then I said to heck with it. Just show up
(06:20):
on Friday, games at seven, whatever, get in a little
bit early if you if you're at home, little extra VP, whatever,
however you want to do that. But the thinking changed
eventually as this whole thing moorphed forward.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
So that's what happens.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I think that I believe that I believe it's not
as difficult mentally to want to do it because of
the four days off and the fact that I think
managers should be less stressed out about the fact that
we've had so many days off and then we're going
to play on Friday.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
What are we going to do? How we're going to
do it? I'm concerned.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I mean, that's a natural reaction if you're the manager
of the team. But I think if you just let
it ride. The players, they've been playing catch, they've been
doing some things while they're home. My experience has been
that game on Friday hasn't been.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
As bad as you thought it would be.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Start slow, It's like the first two or three holes
on a golf course, and all of a sudden, by
fourth old, your swing comes back.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Everything's ruvy.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So I think there's again so many things to unpack.
But the four day break really premits all this to happen.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, And I got to tell you the players who
are there were great. And I can tell you that
being in the American League clubhouse after the game and
that was the losing team, it was like they won.
It really was just happiness all around. Everybody knew they
were part of history. The first time we had to
swing off like that well competed game where they were
down six to nothing came back to tie the game.
It was just a really cool atmosphere and another behind
(07:37):
the scenes for you, Joe, you've seen this in the
games you've managed. In the All Star Game, the coolest
thing is when there's no media in there. We get
in there as Fox rights holders for a certain period
of time, and you see the way players kind of
congregate in different smaller groups and the conversations that are
going on. When you see Clayton Kershaw sitting down with
(07:57):
Paul Skeins, right, that kind of stuff happens in the
clubhouse where guys want to pick each other's brains. It
is just so cool. So the players who are not there,
they're missing out. Not just on Hey, it's cool to
play in the game. It's the camaraderie of being around
the best players in the world, of being in this club.
It's one of my most fun things about the All
(08:19):
Star Game, Joe, is to see the way that players interact.
And I always ask the managers every year, like, what
players now that you have in your locker room they're
from visiting teams? Who has surprised you, What have you learned?
Who did you meet? Who impressed you. It's really fascinating
to get the first impressions when managers see these, and
I'm sure you've gone through it, Joe. With visiting players,
(08:40):
it's just a really cool mix of the best players
in the world. So the game is cool, but to
see the best players in the world together interacting, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, it's under these circumstances. Again, there's there's a lightness
about it. The game does not have to be one.
And we've talked about this and I've been a proponent
of the game counting for the reasons that I mean,
it's a competition. You want to win the game, and
I liked the idea that there was something attached to it.
I thought, it's just like you know, whether you again
the golf reference, if you're playing for five bucks rate.
(09:12):
You know, over the course of eighteen holes, it still
makes you bear down a little bit more so. I've
always and the fact that you were playing for home
field advantage. I thought that was a good thing, and
I still do. I'm not backing off that this one
game can't change my mind. But the conversation you're talking
about the lightness of about the group, the guys interacted
with one another. I think part of it was the
fact that nothing really mattered in this game. You could
(09:35):
go out there and just play. If you have a
bad inning, if you strike out three times, whatever, it's
not going to impact if you make an error like
it would have had the game actually mattered. So there's
again when you when you break things down like this
to me, like you said earlier, we could just keep
going down different rabbit holes trying to dissect what it
had been, whether it was the sixties, the President's having
(09:57):
these inspirational speeches even though the game didn't count, but
it did, you know, Freddie lyn Hint a grand Slam
home Roo Chicago.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
How big that was all the different?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Bo Jackson, the game off with the home and the
dead center at Anaheim, whatever I mean but it was big.
I mean, even though the game didn't count at that time,
it had a different litmus test about it was that different.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
It was a different flavor about it.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
And then it mattered, and then when it mattered again,
it became a little bit more serious. As a manager,
I could speak for that specifically. It was you did
not want to mess this up and you wanted to
continue to win for you, for your league end, for
the home field advantage. And now getting back to the
exhibition component of it, and it seems like you're saying
the players took it the right way, and I think, again,
(10:38):
it's all because now if it really doesn't matter, I'm
out there just you know, almost like a spring training game,
and it has a different vibe to it. So so
many different variables involving in the All Star Game now,
it's gone so many different directions since it was conceived.
Was that nineteen thirty three was Carl Hubbell who eventually
met Struck got six guys in a row with the screwball,
(10:58):
And how that created such a llure about mister Hubble
was I Scott it with?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
So wow, It's just it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I should be talked about and I'm certain that there's
going to be more attempts at new ideas thoughts because
of this last point, Corny becomes cool. You have to
be careful with that or heads up for that, because
exactly what you were talking about there. I would try
different things, you know, whether it was defenses, us, dress
up trips, theme road trips, whatever. And before it actually occurs,
(11:29):
it sounds like a great idea, and then until it's
actually implemented and it's successful, you really you freak out
about it a little bit, you get concerned about it.
But the moment it occurs and there's acceptance that resonates
all of a sudden, there's like a big sigh of
relief and it's a it's a real pleasing moment when
the plan comes.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
To fruition point number two. In the All Star Game,
how cool was it once again to see players wearing
their own uniforms? Oh my goodness, I love what Aaron
Boone said. And I hadn't thought about this, but it
makes perfect sense, the idea seeing guys wearing their home
uniforms in a visiting park. So in this case, the
(12:08):
National League teams like Mets players wearing Mets uniform home
unis Unis in Atlanta is so cool, right, But it's
more about identifying your team, your colors, your players, because
when you dress them the same, you couldn't tell one
guy from another. This was a major change that really
helped the field.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
The game cannot agree with you more on that.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I was concerned because I, you know, watching the home
run derby a little bit and you saw the knockoffs
with the Ale and the anl on, I was like,
oh my god, going, where are we going with the uniforms,
And then as soon as you saw that they were
in their own unigram, God, it was such a relief.
Uniforms are spectacular and you have so much pride when
you wear them, and you're there to represent your team,
your city, your fan base, whatever, and fans want to
(12:53):
see that uniform on display in an All Star game
with their favorite player wearing it. So right, great, great response.
I think they've taken enough heat over the weird uniform
over the last several years.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Now.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
If you want to market something different, fine, but permit
the guys to go out there and not be dressed
in all these elaborate colors and let them wear the
phill I love the Philly uniform. I think it's classic,
whatever it may be, Phillies, Angels, Angels, classical, all these
different unigrams, let them wear. I think the fans really
appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Point number three, we need to talk about Jacob Miserowski
and the Philadelphia Phillies. Now, this became a controversy leading
up to the game, and it really it was the
Phillies who stoked the controversy, saying this kid for the Brewers,
with only five major league starts, does not quote unquote
deserve to be an All Star, which is a bunch
of bologney. The kid is just a phenom. People want
(13:46):
to see him pitch. Mark Fidrids had eleven starts before
he started the All Star Game started the All Star Game.
I can make an argument that five starts in twenty
twenty five is about equivalent of eleven in terms of
exposure in nineteen seventy four. In any case, people have
to remember that Major League Baseball asked Ranger Suarez to
pitch in this game. He said no. Christopher Sanchez pitched
(14:07):
on Sunday. By rule by the CBA, if you pitch
on Sunday, you're not eligible to pitch in the game.
Now you can apply for a waiver. That's like, never
been done. Nobody wants to send their guy out to
the man on a Tuesday after he started a game
on a Sunday. It's sort of a moot point. Zach
Wheeler was in line. I thought he was deserving of
the All Stars start over Paul skiens very close, but
(14:29):
either way, MLB went with Skins. Zach Wheeler said, I'm
like going, he's from Georgia. This is the team now
is complaining about this kid who throws one hundred and
two miles an hour with a Tom Sawyer grin on
his face, who pitched for Crowder College rough Riders, And
now is the talk of Major League Baseball in an
exhibition game? Are you kidding me? And actually some of
(14:50):
the media people ran with this. I mean Nick Castiano
is just saying, what is it? The Savannah bananas? Now
that's how we're picking players. No, it's an exhibition game.
It's not like this kid doesn't getting anything done. Historically,
he's got four wins ear end or three and thirty
three punch outs. There's only been like six or seven
guys who started this way. He earned his way on
the team. I felt bad for the kid. I thought
(15:12):
he handled it well. The blowback was certainly not his fault,
but it came his way because people didn't think he
was quote unquote deserving. I expected better at Phillies here.
Just a bad look at the whining and complaining when
they were bagging out of the game themselves.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
That's the main point I believe right there, the fact
that the reason why he was even considered to be
on the team was because of how they reacted to everything,
or not be wanted to be there.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Part of it Wheelers, especially specifically.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
They tell you let me jump in here, go ahead.
Major League Baseball went through twenty different pictures before they
finally got to this kid and said would you like
to play? And when he heard and we said yes,
he broke down crying. It meant so much to go
to the game. It wasn't like he was on the
original roster at all. They had to go twenty names
down the list to give Hi an invite.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Well, see, that needs to be known.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I mean that needs to because I was not aware
of that to be stated, because quite frankly, when I
heard it, I was like I was kind of surprised
by the whole thing. I haven't seen him pitch yet,
but the minimal numbers of pitching appearances whatever. I know
he throws one hundred miles an hour. I know, I know,
I know, but you would think there's more deserving and
you're just you just described it really well that they
went through an entire litany of names in order to
(16:24):
fill spots, and that see, that's that's where the Phillies
have to back off a little bit, and especially, like
you said, if their own boys decided that they did
not want to do it. I've not seen him pitch yet,
I've heard all about him. I'm looking forward. I'm going
to make sure that I look for probables and see
what he's going to pitch. I could check it out.
It's and again for him, it could be once in
(16:44):
a lifetime thing. Who knows. Injuries occur, things happen, whatever.
So his reaction was great. I saw the video when
he was told in the locker room by Skipper that
he was going to the All Star Game and his
reaction to it. He had to stand in front of
the players and make a little speech, and you could
just see, like like you just said, Tom swear there
(17:04):
he goes. There's a couple of different ways to look
at this, but the main component of it, I believe
is the fact that so many folks turned him down
and he was on on this list of later a
potential All Stars based on the fact that a lot
of people walked away from it.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, and listen again, it's the entertainment part, right, I mean,
are there more deserving people? If you want to break
it down statistically, I would say yes. I mean I
thought Emilio Pagan to the Reds great first half, you know,
definitely had an argument to go to the All Star Game.
But this is a kid who's taken the game by storm.
I mean he beat the Dodgers with one walk and
(17:42):
twelve strikeouts. Since the Dodgers have been in LA, only
Dwight Gooden has done that at such a young age.
I mean, he's a phenom. Folks want to see this
guy pitch, and it's no offense to Emelio Pagan again,
great season, veteran guy back into the Reds bullpen. I
got a good argument, but when it comes to entertainment,
I want to see the guy throw it. One hundred
(18:03):
and two says the ball seven and a half feet
in front of the rubber, with a crazy spin rate
and a low release angle like a Jacob de Grom.
I have him Joe statistically with the best fastball in
the major leagues. When you break down its qualities.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
It's interesting. I got to watch them.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
And then just going back to another point, if the
game mattered, if the game really mattered and he was not, yeah,
you didn't want Pegne at the end of the game
as a relief pitcher, so you might want, you know,
a roster construction might look a little bit differently under
those circumstances.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
But again, like.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
You you've stated it, and we've talked about exhibition game,
it takes on an entirely different light under those circumstances.
And on top of that, those that choose or do
not want to go that step away from it, and
then you have to be replaced. And then it's going
to be compounded by those even though they're healthy enough
and they're well enough, and they're within the guidelines of
being able to do these things, they choose not to
(18:57):
go for a variety of personal reasons whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
So again, this is just where we're at.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Man a lot to unpack with this. I'm happy for
the kid. I'm eager to watch him pitch. I've read
about him, got a great name, and I just I
got to see this for myself.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Moving on to point four ABS, and we're not talking
about the breaking system on Joe's truck, right, this is
the automatic ball strike challenge system. I cannot wait to
hear what Joe Madden has to say about the use
of ABS. We'll take a quick break and we'll dive
into that next. Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast.
(19:46):
We're talking about a fascinating All Star game. A lot
to unpack here as we are doing, including the first
use in a real game, so to speak. I say real,
it didn't count, but we're talking about pure major leaguers.
I know they used it in spring training when you
got guys in the minor leagues up as well. But
the automatic ball strikes is the more players, the batter
of the pitcher and the catcher have the opportunity to
(20:07):
challenge a ball strike called by an umpire, and very
quickly we can all look in real time as it
unfolds in graphic form whether that pitch was a strike
or a ball. Joe, I'm gonna start with you.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
He saw it in action in the All Star Game.
It was used five times, four overturns, one upheld.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
What do you think, well, independent of all that, because
of course it's gonna work. I mean, it's going to
be accurate all the above.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
It it is that.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
And what it then leads to is no arguments.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
You know. That's the thing.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's like, this is going to it's part of my
perfection where we're seeking perfection. And I remember, I don't
know how many times I walked in front of Troy
Gloss when he was at Third Basement the Angels. Troy
and I became very close, and he'd start beating himself
up a couple bat at bats whatever, and I say,
I used to call him Roy and instead of Troy.
Perfection is a boring concept. It takes humanity out of everything.
(21:01):
So I used to say this to him, just walking
by his locker after a couple of tough days. So
we're getting perfection, which then subtracts emotion, and then here's
there's no longer any arguments. Briestly, I saw a game
Balls and Strikes. I can't remember who it was, but
it led to this great argument stirred the fans up.
Manager gets ejected. It might have been Carlos Mendoze's a matter, Carlos.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
That was an old school rant, right.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I mean, so now that's no longer in existence. When
you're going to be everything's gonna be dictator, you know,
the calls even on the basis And I got ejected
for after they called New York and they come back
and I thought the call was still wrong, and then
you're not supposed to say anything, but I did, and
I got ejected for arguing with somebody two thousand miles away.
That's the part that I think you have to be
careful with because again we've talked about it is entertainment.
(21:49):
Isn't our game entertainment. We just talked about the entertainment value.
And I still want to believe it's entertaining to have
a manager come out make a full out of himself
to defend his team. And if the more we seek
perfection and include technology to the point where there's no
reason argue anymore, there's no reason to come out there
kick dirt on home plate, the emotion becomes less than
(22:12):
so to me, the one thing that's the part of it.
It's not spoken about. Enough is that? And then Mendoza
incites his team, stirs it up, defends his guys. All
these opportunities that you have right there that may not
seem important from a distance, but I promise you and
you know that from a dugout in the clubhouse, they are.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
So that's how I look at it. It's not you know,
the number of.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Challenges right or wrong, Okay, we changed the couple whatever.
I'm just looking at from the perspective that abs system
will diminish emotion and prevent and really not even diminished,
prevent forever arguments because there's no reason to.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I'm glad you said that, Joe, and I thought you
were going to go there, because I think that's an
important let's call it a disclaimer or warning label that
should go on not just Major League Baseball, but basically
all of our society. As we can continue to go
farther down the path of technology and automation, it is dangerous.
There's no question you still have to have room for
(23:13):
the human element. With that being said, I will tell
you that I do like this system. I do not
like you know, hopefully it does not lead to a
full on you know, robotics strike zone being called all
the time by machinery. I think that would be a travesty.
But I do like it for a couple of reasons, Joe.
There is fan engagement. The fans totally loved it last night,
(23:33):
and the players actually loved it too. I mean, I
get it's it's it's a novelty right now. It will
cease being a novelty after a month of a season,
so everybody was interested in seeing how it played out,
and it worked really well, and the fans got into it.
There's no question. We see that in tennis with the Hawkeye,
and they have not gotten used to the novelty. It's
still a cool thing for the fans. That is this
(23:54):
fan engagement part of it. So I like that. I
think it introduces strategy, and I'm in favor of anything
that introduces strategy into the game of baseball. You have
to be judicious about when you these challenges. It's like
Aaron Boone told his group American League players last night.
He said, go ahead and challenge if you want, but
I just have one rule. You better be right, you know,
(24:14):
don't be wrong. Don't be wasted a challenge in the
first inning on an OH one pitch you only get two.
You keep it if you're right. But he basically putting
his players on morning, as every manager should like. Don't
be frivolous about it. You have to be really strategic
about it. And the other thing is I wouldn't let
my pitchers challenge. Pictures are the worst judges. They think
(24:34):
everything is a strike. They're too far away, and catchers
who have a really good idea of the strike zone.
The same with framing, they're not all created equal. That's
going to be a skill. If you're really good at
determining if that ball's a strike or not, you can
really change counts and sometimes change a game because of that.
But I do like the idea, like when we have
it on the basis the real purpose is not to
(24:57):
allow that one egregious call to decide a game. Now
you're gonna have a lot of hair splitting exercises more
then you're gonna have those, But that's what you're trying
to avoid. You know that bases loaded three to two pitch,
that's well, the strike's on strike. Three inning over. Now
you have a challenge, you have a fallback. I'm okay
with that. I might actually reduce it, Joe, to one
(25:17):
challenge per team, because I even felt like last night
five of them was a little too much, you know,
And they found in the minor leagues that like four
or five is the right number if you stop the
game down because the umpires having a bad night six
or seven times, that's not good for the game. So
I would actually maybe reduce it to one. But that's
(25:37):
subject I think to change as we go forward.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Beta was a good idea versus VHS, wasn't it, And
so was three D TV, and so was the Edsel.
You know that all these things came on board, and
having done the job to be sending in a dugout
it really again just waiting for the judge to declare
his verdict being some kind of hawkeye system, whatever it
(26:01):
might be, and just having to accept that without having
me the opportunity even except times, you know, the umpire
might be right, but you still got to go there
and just stir it up a little bit. Maybe you
could still do that, I don't know, maybe start arguing
against the system itself. But you just mentioned something there
that there's some umpires that aren't so good. So ball
strike guys, you know on the basis. I guess everybody's
(26:24):
almost a perfect umpire on the basis these days, right,
I mean, is it? Although there's going to be a
couple times when you can't challenge, maybe around a challenge whatever,
but the umpires on the basis.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I'd love to see the data how many times different
umpires have been overruled on the basis, Joe, that's a
great point. You just say, because they they're perfect, because
they have a fallback system of technology. That's how many
times do you not get it right? We should know that,
just like we know errors that players make.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Well, you're gonna have to then know the challenge system
with balls and strikes too. I mean, there's that little
thing on Twitter, the umpires scorecard. I've gone through that
several times, and I'll look at the umpire's name and
I try to guess how good are bad at score
is going to be before I look down at the results,
and I'm almost always right. So again it's going to
(27:08):
expose even though it's exposed bad calls on the basis,
nobody really seems to care, even though the scorecard might
all look good for an umpire, And there's the come
plate umpire. I think might come into a little bit
more scrutiny with that, because there's still going to be
a limited number of challenges, and like you said, if
you're out of your challenges and all of a sudden,
here comes a bad call ony after the ninth inning,
(27:28):
there's going to be some kind of a blowback with
the fans being upset that we don't have enough challenges
at the end of the game when it really mattered
because we were stripped.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Of them earlier in the game.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I think this is going to go to a lot
of different directions eventually, based on the limit umber of
challenges and the fact that you could still lose that
three to two count with two outs because you're out
of challenges in a latter part of the game whenever.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
So I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
My biggest concern, Go ahead and do it, But I'm
as a manager, I've lost this vehicle where I could
actually lose my mind a little bit in an attempt
to stir my team up somewhat. A couple years ago,
there's an umpire in Oakland that he said something to
Max Dassy, my catcher, and I never saw Max.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
He was hitting at the time. Max and he said.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Something the Empire did and I've never seen Max like that.
He come back to the dug got asked him, what
did he say to you? And he told me, I'm
not gonna mention the guy's name. I'm not going to
tell you what he said. But I walked out to
the plate and I stood on home plate, would not
permit the picture to warm up, and I demanded that
the Empire apologized to Max before we start the inning,
(28:36):
because it was that was that crude and rude and wrong.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
So but he gave me this opportunity to show Max
I'm there for Max kind of a thing.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
So anyway, I don't like when my job is mitigated
in a sense because I'm no longer that was a
part of it, man And you look through the history
of managers and what they were able to do and
part of their motivational techniques that's being stripped a little bit.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, Now it's about how good is your replay guy,
how quick he is on the trigger when he makes
the right calls. Right, I mean, it's crazy, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Because I just thought of Chico Fernandez, my boy with
the Rays, one of the funniest guys and he's no
longer there, one of the funniest guys in all of
Major League Baseball.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
One more point on the All Star Game. I'm not
sure if you saw it, Joe, but the tribute to
Hank Aaron was they missed it technological marvel. It was
just a brilliant, stirring moment with photographic mapping, projection mapping
on the field of highlights from the Run seven fifteen
in nineteen seventy four. They basically played out the bat
(29:38):
in multiple media, including having fireworks mimic the ball going
out of the park, and they somehow arranged for this
firework to be shot off with a comet tail going
at the same speed a baseball would travel leaving the yard.
It was just remarkable, befitting someone as remarkable and as
(29:59):
heroic as Henry Aaron. Just a great night in Atlanta,
and hey, I guess it was fitting that, you know,
at the end of the night, and by the way,
it was almost midnight in Georgia to bring back a
lot oft night in the Pips when the swing off
was being held, that's beautiful and it came down to
who can hit home runs on the night when we
honored truly the home run King.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
I gotta go here on this one. I obviously remember
exactly where I was when I watched that. I was
at Jack's Kesslerville, in a barroom at Lafayette out in
the country. Jack was a former vaudevillian. He was in
his eighties at that time, and told me eighty Collins
was the best baseball player he ever saw, and he
saw shoeless Joe Jackson in that whole group. Jack would
(30:40):
recite poetry. He would drink kognak every night, stand in
a corner, and he get little hammered enough that he'd
go with faces on the barroom floor, casey at the bat,
all from heart and with all the trimmings of his
time spent in vaudeville. But I saw it in a
black and white, probably a fourteen inch TV above the
(31:00):
bar at Jack's Kesslerville Inn.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
It's a tremendous man for me.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
It was stirring night then and it still is. It's
one of those historical moments that still can raise the
hair on your forearms. And especially I'm glad they used,
you know, multiple calls at the home run, but especially
Vin Scully, the master at framing a moment in this case,
not just a baseball moment, but a moment of American history.
Just a terrific job all the way around with that.
(31:26):
So it was March second, nineteen seventy four, by the way,
that Gladys Knight and the Pips won a Grammy for
Midnight Train to Georgia. And it was thirty seven days
later in Georgia that Hank Aaron hit number seven fifteen.
And it was last night in Atlanta in Georgia, near
midnight on seven point fifteen, that we had the first
(31:49):
swing off in All Star history.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Enough said, right there, brother, that's perfect, perfect.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Great night for baseball.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I really thought it was a good showcase of you know,
the talent in the game and moving the game forward.
There's no question about that. And the bottom line for me,
Joe is the players will let you know. And the
most important part to me of that night was how
much the players enjoyed that game. I know the fans did,
and we're here for the fans, but to see the
(32:16):
players buy in like that, that was the highlight for me.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yeah. I mean, it's the play exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
The players will let you know, and I'm sure the
format is going to stay similar for the years to come,
and I think now because of the success of last
night and the word of mouth spread by the guys,
you might see more players willing and wanting to go
to this event and be more accepting of it and
again realize you're still going to get two full days
(32:41):
off afterwards. Plush the experience of being at an All
Star game. I went to three one as a bench coach,
too as a manager, and I could break them down
for you very well, each one different. Two of them counted,
one did not, but even one that did not count,
it was kind of upset. We lost in X Rainnings
Way Davis through Home under Robinson Cano and that was it.
(33:01):
But nevertheless, it's special. Man, It's like it's a condemned was.
I always felt like a condensed version of the World Series,
Like there's so much happening. You get there the first
day and then home in Derby, you're signing autographs, you're
doing interviews, you're talking to people. Second that you're playing
the game, and it's just like a non it's like
con Bearer Belt of NonStop activity all day and then
(33:21):
eventually you win or lose.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Then you got to get out of there.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And you just take your Hellcat and you drive across
the Alligator Alley one hundred and twenty five miles an
hour heading Naples, Florid.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
It was fantastic.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
There's a non All Star game piece of news I
have to ask Joe Madden about. But just to close
the book on the All Star Game, Joe, I'm not
sure if this was done when you were managing the team,
but a lot of got players, especially the first timers
we're talking. Apparently there's a room like a swag room
of gratis. You know, it's provided by sponsors, and it
(33:54):
is Christmas morning time twenty essentially, you know, electronic companies
and gadgets, you name it, where players just go in
there and load up. Did they have that when you
were around?
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Oh yeah, yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
And you go in there and you try to be
you know, civil about it. I mean, you're not gonna
you want to get you want to you know, take something.
I think back dad a really cool backpack when I
was in Miami that I think I still have.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
But otherwise, yes, it's it's it is.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Christmas morning and then some a little bit more sticky
fingers than others.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
That's the way I can describe it.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
So, how do you stay home?
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Right right? Well, yeah, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I guess it sounds like once you.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Get there, you're fine. It's the thought of it.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
How many times is the thought of it keep it
from wanting to do something and then we actually engage
in whatever it is and we're so happy.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
We did it.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Good stuff, Joe. Hey, the subject I want to ask
you about involves your Tampa Bay Rays, who are all
over the news. We'll talk about that right after this
on the Book of Joe. A couple of big pieces
(35:07):
of news to talk about on the Book of Joe
involving the Tampa Bay Rays. Number one, they will be
if they qualify for the postseason, playing all their home
games at a minor league ballpark George M. Steinbrennerfield, where
they're playing the regular season games. There had been some
talk about moving games to Miami, maybe Atlanta, maybe Texas,
(35:27):
an actual major league facility ain't happening. And number two,
and this is actually related from what I found out,
the Rays are being stold. Stue Sternberg, who bought the
team back in four for two hundred million dollars, is
getting one point seven billion dollars for the Tampa Bay Rays,
a franchise that does not actually even have a home park,
(35:49):
you know, their usual park, which is always felt temporary
to me. The trop is still under repair. It should
be ready by next season from what people are saying.
But the new owner wants to keep the team, apparently
in Tampa. So the whole push hole between Saint Pete
and Tampa looks like that's ending. Give me your thoughts
here on these two developments, Joe, the Rays will be
(36:12):
playing if they make the World Series, they'll be playing
at a ten thousand seat stadium, and the fact that
they are being sold for a billionaire developer who apparently
wants to keep them on the Tampa side.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, first of all, the playing in that ballpark, I
thought about that from the beginning, you know, because it
definitely playoff caliber group on an annual basis, what are
you gonna do? So I really thought that that should
have been addressed like almost from Jump Street, like listen,
and by the way, if we get to the playoffs,
if the Rays got to the playoffs, they're staying right here.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Okay, I have no issue with that. Really.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
I think the biggest thing there is the financial part
of it, where you know, the receipts from people coming
to the ballpark. Somebody's gonna have to make up where
it somehow. MLB is going to have to I think
augment the kiddie. There's going to be a different way
to draw to conclusion the amount of money made there
regarding distribution to the players and the staffs whatever host
winning or losing a World Series or just getting in
(37:02):
the playoffs in general.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
So I think, just to follow up on that, Joe,
you're absolutely right, because you know it takes a certain
amount of infrastructure. There's logistics associated with this, and as
you know, the players get a share of the postseason gates, right,
and if you're playing in a ten thousand seats stadium
instead of fifty thousand and Dodgers Stadium or forty five
thousand Yankee Stadium, those numbers are going way down. And
(37:24):
Major League Baseball actually acquires it holds about seventy five
hundred tickets for every venue in the World Series for
their media, corporate sponsors, you name it, right. You can't
do that at a ten thousand seat stadium. So there
are logistical problems with it. Such a small ballpark to
host the biggest event in baseball. So your point is
(37:47):
well taken here. But I think the point also, Joe,
is that I believe because the team is being sold right,
and a guy who wants to keep the team in Tampa,
the worst thing would be to pull the rug out
from under those fans and have the game be played
somewhere else. Trying to establish roots in Tampa.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
One hundred percent, and it's going to stay there. I
totally believe that. I heard the commissioners say that it would.
I just think, like you're saying, it's to extrapolate the
money out somehow, if you had played enough thirty five
thousand to forty seed stadium, what would have looked like?
Speaker 3 (38:19):
But you're hit on another thing.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I had not thought about tickets, like for family, you know,
stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
That becomes really difficult.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
And then you know, corporate people, they're probably gonna they'd
have to erect some kind of temporary whatever's there to
accommodate more folks. I don't know how much the Yankees
would appreciate that, but I'm sure there's going to be
deals to be made regarding what could stay and how
it's going to benefit them down the road. But they're
gonna have to extrapolate the amount of money made in
a normal playoff situation if the stadium had like as
(38:49):
thirty five or forty thousand seats, and how are we
going to make it good? How they're going to push
that money into that pot somehow and eventually make it
look kind of normal, even though that's not exactly what
they took in. I can't see the prices getting any
really that much higher, because after all, they're pretty extreme
right now.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Although who knows.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
There might be a lottery system to get tickets. Who knows,
But I think they're gonna have to figure that out
and somehow make it good because they're not going to
be the same amount of folks and the tenants.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
I mean, imagine if the Yankees are playing the Ras
the ALCS places, those tickets are going to be. There's
only ten thousand tickets to watch the Yankees and raise
play for the American League.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Pennant, that's right, that this could be nuts. It could
absolutely crazy.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
You're right crazy, But I do think there's linkage here, Joe.
I think if the team were not being sold right,
it would have been easier. And I know Major League
Baseball at least discussed it. Obviously, you think about any scenario,
what's going to happen if, and you prepare for anything.
But I think it would have been easier to consider
a place like Miami. Now, listen, if the Tigers are
playing the Rays in Miami and Lone Depot Park or
(39:55):
whatever they're calling that these days, you're not going to
fill the place. I'm sorry, your ALCS is gonna have
a lot of empty seats. And that's not a good
look either. So I think the bottom line here is
they are doing the right thing. It's going to create
logistical nightmares. I mean, to put together a championship series,
and especially a world series and involves literal physical infrastructure
(40:17):
with all the cameras, all the media coming from all
over the world. That press box there is so small.
I don't want to say it's a nightmare scenario because
it would actually be a little bit of fun attached
to playing such a big event in a small venue,
But it would be a headache figuring out how to
squeeze twenty pounds of potatoes in a ten pounds sec.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
A lot of offsite stuff could be done there. I mean,
Raymond James is right across the street, and who knows
how they could somehow meet large screens, you know, the
press box. Like you said, they're not gonna be able
to accommodate everybody, so they might be able to set
things up right across the street. The parking lot there
is rather large too, ray j So all that stuff
is central to each other. So they're going to have
to be very creative on how to tie that all together.
(40:58):
Who knows, maybe even charge a certain amount of money
to go into Raymond James and watch it on this
massive screen somehow.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
But it's there.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
The facilities are there outside of that ballpark. But it's
been said, and I believe it's going to stay there.
And now it's up to the race to make things
really difficult.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yes, And if I can put you on the spot,
Joe Manna, because you know that market so well, you've
lived it, you've breathed it. Is this now the way forward,
the better way forward? Because let's face it, the new
owner here, Patrick Zapolski, he's not inheriting the history, right.
Stus Sternberg had to kind of walk between Tampa and
Saint Pete and try to appease both sides. You know
(41:34):
we're going to build, couldn't get anything built on the
Tampa side, and then his latest plan kind of fell
apart to build on the current side of the TRUP.
So a new owner doesn't have that history to inherit necessarily,
at least personally, So maybe it's a little bit easier
for him to get sort of the political capital to
just focus on Tampa and where that is. I don't know,
(41:56):
you know that area better than me. I know some
people talk about the east side of Tampa, so you
can tap into the Orlando market. But give me your take, Joe,
what this means for the future of the Rays and
what their permanent home might be.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Well, the first thing I have to understand the kind
of the politics of the place. I mean, one of
the first pieces of advice I got when I got
there was never referred to it as Tampa Raised or
never referred to it as Saint Petersburg rais to either
the Tampa Bay Rays or the Tampa Bay Tampa Saint
Pete Rays. I mean, it's really either side gets really
offended when they're not included. So, first of all, if
(42:30):
it's going to be Tampa only and with all the
closeness regarding the potential of the new stadium and everything
happening in Saint Petersburg. I'm curious how that's going to
play out, because there's going to be some upset people
on that side of the Howard Franklin and the Gandhi
Causeways bridges there because they don't like that.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
It's been like.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
A Hafield McCoy situation for years, and I've always was like,
really curious as to why the area just can't come together.
It's such a wonderful place live. I like both sides,
and I think it's such a dynamic area. To really
unify on both sides of that those bridges are causeways
and become more unified in regards to what we're trying
(43:09):
to get done here, it could be unbelievably spectacular because
it is that good. I love the place. I feel
like it's a second home. So from that perspective, that's
going to be dealt with that first. I think there's
a lot of people upset if, in fact, it moves
to Tampa over Saint Pete. Now it's having said all that,
I've always felt it should be in Tampa and not
Saint Pete it's just where it's located. Saint Petersburg is
(43:30):
very difficult to get to. I drive that Howard Franklin
and the Gandhy at different times of the day to
go to Saint Pete Country Club, and I'm telling you, man,
when that backs up, it's tough and there's no other
way to get there. So that's always been a concern
on that side, and especially when you're talking about dinner time,
where whenever the game begins, where it repels people from
coming from Tampa over you're going to get the same
(43:52):
thing and reverse people from Saint Pete are not going
to want to go to Tampa. Traffic is tough, and
it keeps getting tougher because Florida's becoming more and more popular.
Having said all that, I agree, I think the new
ballpark I've always felt it should be on the Tampa side,
and I love Eybor City area Channel Cyber. Mister Vinnick
has done a great job, spectacular job with the lightning
(44:16):
and what they've built over there. It's really it's a vibrant,
really groovy area over there. It's near downtown Tampa, it's
near a South Tampa, which is where I used to live.
And South Tampa has. It's really an extraordinary little almost
like a hamlet. It's like a place, a great little
restaurant shops. The topography is great, the water's right there,
(44:37):
bike trails, everything he wants right there. So and like
you suggest that the greater proximity from Orlando, so you
might gain something from that side, but you might get
upset people not wanting to come over from Saint Pete also.
But nevertheless, I think the sitelines the ability to build
something really special there that will attract in the near future.
(44:57):
In the future definitely would get an All Star Game
if they really built it up properly, a nice which
they will. I always thought a something that appeals to
the entire ya not just build a baseball stadium, but
build a baseball stateia that includes the.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
Arts, the youth of the area.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Make it multi fast, not just maybe the ballpark is
the ballpark, but it's just spread it out a little
bit and appeal to everybody, because a large part of
the controversy has always been that they don't want to
put that much money towards just a baseball facility only.
So I'm saying, stretch it out, make it appeal to
everybody because the area is that vibrant, it's that alive,
and it's that interesting. So yes, I vote on the
(45:36):
Tampa side. I love both sides. I think Saint Pete's
been to Saint Pete lately. It's just booming.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Man.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
It's beautiful what they've done down there.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
They really have a great art culture down there, and
the restaurants downtown are fabulous. It's just that it's difficult
to get in and out of. So that's what I think.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
And folks, that's why you listen to the Book of Joe.
You ask Joe a question and you get an answer.
No obfuscation, no filigree, no answering, no agendas. Here's my
answer to your question. I love that, and that's why Joe.
I come to you each time to end our episodes
with more wisdom. And you somewhat hinted, but you held
(46:16):
back your hint early in the podcast on where you
were going for our thought of the day. So now's
your time. What do you got?
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Well again?
Speaker 2 (46:25):
I listened to that interview by with Commissioner Manfred and
I was listening what he said and how he said it.
It made me really ruminate over I mean listened Like
I said, I've been in those situations where.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
You're you're charge your leader and you're you're pushing forth
a new agenda and you believe it's good.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
You want to believe it's good, but you don't know
what to actually get it done and see it in
operation to know that maybe this the thought process was
that good.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
So this is from cerial false see why r I L.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I don't know who this person is, but it really
I thought Nail that leadership is particularly necessary to ensure
ready acceptance of the unfamiliar and that which is contrary
to tradition.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
It's exactly what's going on. He's as a leader.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
It's necessary to ensure the acceptance of the unfamiliar, the unfamiliar,
with the whole game was unfamiliar, a lot of that
game was unfamiliar yesterday, and that it's absolutely contrary to
to tradition, and you have to be a strong leader
to fight through those thoughts and roadblocks whatever.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
So that's what I thought.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
I really thought he demonstrated well what he believes in
what he's doing. And this little quote, when you're fighting
things that are contrary to tradition, not easy.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
That's great stuff. And Ironically, that's exactly what the commissioner
is also doing as he works toward a new CBA
where he's going on as speaking toward to teams to
actually talk to the players about you talk about fighting tradition,
about changing the economic system of Major League Baseball. That
is the riddle of the sphinx when you try to
(48:03):
solve that. But he's that's the tradition he's fighting. Good
luck with that that. We'll save all that for another episode.
But it's a great Court of the day and even
nailed it once again, Joe.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Thank you brother. This has been fun. I appreciate you.
I'm I'm how shall I say, I'm challenging myself with
all of this because I'm a traditionalist and I think
I always will be, and I could the thing you
brought it up earlier about the game, I really the
part's about the change of the game that bothered me
the most is when you interfere with strategy. That's what
bothers me the most because I think as a manager,
(48:38):
I lose an edge if I'm strategically stronger than the
guy and the other dugout. So a lot of the
rules I think have impacted strategy and that's where I
become desjointed with this whole thing. On the other hand,
I was like at the lead a lot of situations
with analytics and shifts in you know, breaking down reverse
splits and all these different things that I did and
(49:00):
organizing a day and how everybody else is doing it
right now. So I have broken from tradition in the past.
I remember my motivation was, how about this. I walked
into the I was ordered with the be with the
angels at the Big Club to throw VP at one time,
and I walked I'm walking out at the end of
the night, and the next day's hitters the guys coming
out early were written literally on a napkin in pen
(49:20):
and thumbtack to the board, and that really bothered me.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
I'm thinking, Okay, we're in the big leagues.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Is it that unsophisticated in regards to getting our point across?
So that one moment when I saw that napkin thumbtack
really did it pushed me to research more into computers
and putting my work on computers and being able to
create forms to do my works that I could.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Change them more quickly when it.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
Was necessary, All because of a thumb tacked napkin indicating
the two or three hitters for next day's early work.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
That's what all began for me.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Great stuff, Joe. The next time we talk, we will
be into the second half, and we're actually by games,
well into the second half, already only about sixty something
games eames remaining in the season. It's crazy, but let
the sprint begin. The next time we talk, we'll we're
talking about the second half of the baseball season.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Cool. And the last point is it's like a roll
of toilet paper. The closer to you get to the
end of faster it goes.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Man Shakespeare couldn't have said it better.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
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or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, and welcome back to the latest episode of
the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Verducci and
of course Joe Madden. And this is our All Star edition, Joe.
(00:26):
It's All Star Break and it's also on the heels
of the ninety fifth All Star Game and a one
of a kind All Star game as well, a game
decided by a swing off. I think we need to
come up with a better name for it. But yeah, anyway,
they're going swing off mini home run derby to decide
what was a six to six game. Joe. There's a
(00:46):
lot of places we can go and we'll go with this,
but I first want to start with your gut reactions
from watching this unique All Star game.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, it is unique, and it's all this stuff is
good because it is. It was an exhibition. It's not
a game that we've talked about this before. There was
nothing that counted about it other than entertainment value, which
was really big regarding MLB in the future of MLB,
So it really scored heavily with that. So another circumstances
to either trough out the strike zone, the challenge system
(01:17):
to run into extra innings and decided the way it
was decided. It all worked and it's interesting and I
was really led me to my quote of the day.
I'm not going to tip on this yet, but I
heard it. I saw an interview with the commissioner, who
I do like, and I thought he did a really
good job. I went to explaining everything, and I'm happy
that he's feeling some success from all of this. But yeah,
(01:38):
the fact that there was an exhibition purely permits experimentation, and
I think that was good. I mean, if you're gonna experiment,
that's when you do. It's like a spring training game,
and then from that you learn and you grow. I
would like to think that we're not going to eventually
turn to a shootout or whatever at the end of
a ball game in order to win it. And I
read some of the players comments because nobody wants to
(01:59):
spend or stick around longer than they have to, and
I wish we could get by that kind of a concept.
But no, overall, under the circumstances, entertainment value everything. It
really resonated on all fronts.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, you found the right word, Joe, Entertainment, right, I mean,
that's what the All Star Game is. I mean the
All Star game we grew up with, and I've been
there in clubhouses where the league president, when there was
such a thing, would come in and say how important
it was to try to win the game. Were a
long way from that. Is pure entertainment, is showing off
the skills of the best players in the world on
this stage in the midsummer when baseball kind of has
(02:34):
the sports world to itself, and it succeeded on that
level in this game. Here's a little bit behind the
scenes in terms of production on this because this rule,
if you will, the tiebreaker rule, has been in place
for about three or four years now, and quite frankly,
a lot of people were kind of scared about what
it would look like because everybody wants to see, for instance,
Judge and Otani in that final group, right, But you
(02:57):
can't have guys who start the game and leave the
game two three hours earlier go up there and start
swinging for the fences to decide the All Star Game.
That's just silly. So you have to pick guys who
are not starters, who are still their bodies are still warm,
and basically the guys who are still on the field
at the end of the game. So by definition, you're
(03:18):
not going to get the most popular players to take
those swings. So there was a lot of concern that
it might be anti climactic to have those kind of players,
not the A list celebrities. If you will decide the
All Star Game right, it makes sense. But then once
this thing, we got this to the point where okay,
we're going, we have a time, we're going to do this.
(03:39):
I looked behind me down on the field and I
noticed all the players were walking out of the dugout,
onto the warning track and even the grassy area between
the dugout and home plate, and they were all standing.
Trek Skoobel, the starting pitcher three and a half hours earlier,
came out in his street clothes. Those players bought in
and were so excited about this. I knew before the
(04:02):
first swing, this is going to be cool. The players
made it. We're talking Joe about it. We don't have
to go through the names. But a lot of players
before the All Star Game said, nice being an All Star,
But I don't want to go right. I'd rather have
the time off. I'm the rest. I don't want to
pitch whatever, I'm gonna stay home. The guys who are
there in a game that did not matter, really cared
(04:24):
about the ending of that game, and that's why it worked.
I mean, I'm telling you, Joe, it was like American
Legion Baseball out there watching these American and National leaguers
rooting for one another, for a team put together for
one night in a game that meant absolutely nothing. The
love of the game, the competition really came to the
four and that's why it worked. One of those ideas
(04:45):
that on paper didn't sound so great, in practice it
was awesome.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Yeah, I get and the fans, Boughty and obviously too.
You know, you're right.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I mean, everybody wants time off this time of the year. However,
it's been my experience, even though you're tired, and when
you either selected to go to this game, as you're
part of the staff, as you were in the World
Series the previous year, there's a lot of times you
would just prefer go hitting like the beach or hitting
a hotel room for a couple of days and just
do nothing. You really get to that particular juncture, however,
(05:14):
the point is when you get to the event, it
all changes. It does if you find that energy. And
also the fact that they've extended the break by two
more days that is really important. It's that the four
days is not as important to everybody that does not
make the team, but it's really important to the guys
that do make the team. I've always felt that. And
then even for a while there they stretched into the Thursday,
(05:37):
which would have been tomorrow, they'd still be playing tomorrow,
which is not was never some teams with there was
never really good idea. So I think the fact that
they extended it to four days for everyone then permits
the greater acceptance I think by the players and the
staff itself, for Okay, even though we're here, we got
to go. Once we get there, all of a sudden
(05:59):
the adrenaline search takes over. But we also know we're
going to get two legit days off and then keep
going the Friday wherever you're playing at There was a
time that I always wanted to work out on Thursday
evening somewhere wherever. It's either if we're going to play
at home on the road, you wanted guys to get there.
Then you made it into an optional workout Thursday. But
then I said to heck with it. Just show up
(06:20):
on Friday, games at seven, whatever, get in a little
bit early if you if you're at home, little extra VP, whatever,
however you want to do that. But the thinking changed
eventually as this whole thing moorphed forward.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
So that's what happens.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I think that I believe that I believe it's not
as difficult mentally to want to do it because of
the four days off and the fact that I think
managers should be less stressed out about the fact that
we've had so many days off and then we're going
to play on Friday.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
What are we going to do? How we're going to
do it? I'm concerned.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I mean, that's a natural reaction if you're the manager
of the team. But I think if you just let
it ride. The players, they've been playing catch, they've been
doing some things while they're home. My experience has been
that game on Friday hasn't been.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
As bad as you thought it would be.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Start slow, It's like the first two or three holes
on a golf course, and all of a sudden, by
fourth old, your swing comes back.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Everything's ruvy.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So I think there's again so many things to unpack.
But the four day break really premits all this to happen.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, And I got to tell you the players who
are there were great. And I can tell you that
being in the American League clubhouse after the game and
that was the losing team, it was like they won.
It really was just happiness all around. Everybody knew they
were part of history. The first time we had to
swing off like that well competed game where they were
down six to nothing came back to tie the game.
It was just a really cool atmosphere and another behind
(07:37):
the scenes for you, Joe, you've seen this in the
games you've managed. In the All Star Game, the coolest
thing is when there's no media in there. We get
in there as Fox rights holders for a certain period
of time, and you see the way players kind of
congregate in different smaller groups and the conversations that are
going on. When you see Clayton Kershaw sitting down with
(07:57):
Paul Skeins, right, that kind of stuff happens in the
clubhouse where guys want to pick each other's brains. It
is just so cool. So the players who are not there,
they're missing out. Not just on Hey, it's cool to
play in the game. It's the camaraderie of being around
the best players in the world, of being in this club.
It's one of my most fun things about the All
(08:19):
Star Game, Joe, is to see the way that players interact.
And I always ask the managers every year, like, what
players now that you have in your locker room they're
from visiting teams? Who has surprised you, What have you learned?
Who did you meet? Who impressed you. It's really fascinating
to get the first impressions when managers see these, and
I'm sure you've gone through it, Joe. With visiting players,
(08:40):
it's just a really cool mix of the best players
in the world. So the game is cool, but to
see the best players in the world together interacting, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, it's under these circumstances. Again, there's there's a lightness
about it. The game does not have to be one.
And we've talked about this and I've been a proponent
of the game counting for the reasons that I mean,
it's a competition. You want to win the game, and
I liked the idea that there was something attached to it.
I thought, it's just like you know, whether you again
the golf reference, if you're playing for five bucks rate.
(09:12):
You know, over the course of eighteen holes, it still
makes you bear down a little bit more so. I've
always and the fact that you were playing for home
field advantage. I thought that was a good thing, and
I still do. I'm not backing off that this one
game can't change my mind. But the conversation you're talking
about the lightness of about the group, the guys interacted
with one another. I think part of it was the
fact that nothing really mattered in this game. You could
(09:35):
go out there and just play. If you have a
bad inning, if you strike out three times, whatever, it's
not going to impact if you make an error like
it would have had the game actually mattered. So there's
again when you when you break things down like this
to me, like you said earlier, we could just keep
going down different rabbit holes trying to dissect what it
had been, whether it was the sixties, the President's having
(09:57):
these inspirational speeches even though the game didn't count, but
it did, you know, Freddie lyn Hint a grand Slam
home Roo Chicago.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
How big that was all the different?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Bo Jackson, the game off with the home and the
dead center at Anaheim, whatever I mean but it was big.
I mean, even though the game didn't count at that time,
it had a different litmus test about it was that different.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
It was a different flavor about it.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
And then it mattered, and then when it mattered again,
it became a little bit more serious. As a manager,
I could speak for that specifically. It was you did
not want to mess this up and you wanted to
continue to win for you, for your league end, for
the home field advantage. And now getting back to the
exhibition component of it, and it seems like you're saying
the players took it the right way, and I think, again,
(10:38):
it's all because now if it really doesn't matter, I'm
out there just you know, almost like a spring training game,
and it has a different vibe to it. So so
many different variables involving in the All Star Game now,
it's gone so many different directions since it was conceived.
Was that nineteen thirty three was Carl Hubbell who eventually
met Struck got six guys in a row with the screwball,
(10:58):
And how that created such a llure about mister Hubble
was I Scott it with?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
So wow, It's just it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I should be talked about and I'm certain that there's
going to be more attempts at new ideas thoughts because
of this last point, Corny becomes cool. You have to
be careful with that or heads up for that, because
exactly what you were talking about there. I would try
different things, you know, whether it was defenses, us, dress
up trips, theme road trips, whatever. And before it actually occurs,
(11:29):
it sounds like a great idea, and then until it's
actually implemented and it's successful, you really you freak out
about it a little bit, you get concerned about it.
But the moment it occurs and there's acceptance that resonates
all of a sudden, there's like a big sigh of
relief and it's a it's a real pleasing moment when
the plan comes.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
To fruition point number two. In the All Star Game,
how cool was it once again to see players wearing
their own uniforms? Oh my goodness, I love what Aaron
Boone said. And I hadn't thought about this, but it
makes perfect sense, the idea seeing guys wearing their home
uniforms in a visiting park. So in this case, the
(12:08):
National League teams like Mets players wearing Mets uniform home
unis Unis in Atlanta is so cool, right, But it's
more about identifying your team, your colors, your players, because
when you dress them the same, you couldn't tell one
guy from another. This was a major change that really
helped the field.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
The game cannot agree with you more on that.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I was concerned because I, you know, watching the home
run derby a little bit and you saw the knockoffs
with the Ale and the anl on, I was like,
oh my god, going, where are we going with the uniforms,
And then as soon as you saw that they were
in their own unigram, God, it was such a relief.
Uniforms are spectacular and you have so much pride when
you wear them, and you're there to represent your team,
your city, your fan base, whatever, and fans want to
(12:53):
see that uniform on display in an All Star game
with their favorite player wearing it. So right, great, great response.
I think they've taken enough heat over the weird uniform
over the last several years.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Now.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
If you want to market something different, fine, but permit
the guys to go out there and not be dressed
in all these elaborate colors and let them wear the
phill I love the Philly uniform. I think it's classic,
whatever it may be, Phillies, Angels, Angels, classical, all these
different unigrams, let them wear. I think the fans really
appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Point number three, we need to talk about Jacob Miserowski
and the Philadelphia Phillies. Now, this became a controversy leading
up to the game, and it really it was the
Phillies who stoked the controversy, saying this kid for the Brewers,
with only five major league starts, does not quote unquote
deserve to be an All Star, which is a bunch
of bologney. The kid is just a phenom. People want
(13:46):
to see him pitch. Mark Fidrids had eleven starts before
he started the All Star Game started the All Star Game.
I can make an argument that five starts in twenty
twenty five is about equivalent of eleven in terms of
exposure in nineteen seventy four. In any case, people have
to remember that Major League Baseball asked Ranger Suarez to
pitch in this game. He said no. Christopher Sanchez pitched
(14:07):
on Sunday. By rule by the CBA, if you pitch
on Sunday, you're not eligible to pitch in the game.
Now you can apply for a waiver. That's like, never
been done. Nobody wants to send their guy out to
the man on a Tuesday after he started a game
on a Sunday. It's sort of a moot point. Zach
Wheeler was in line. I thought he was deserving of
the All Stars start over Paul skiens very close, but
(14:29):
either way, MLB went with Skins. Zach Wheeler said, I'm
like going, he's from Georgia. This is the team now
is complaining about this kid who throws one hundred and
two miles an hour with a Tom Sawyer grin on
his face, who pitched for Crowder College rough Riders, And
now is the talk of Major League Baseball in an
exhibition game? Are you kidding me? And actually some of
(14:50):
the media people ran with this. I mean Nick Castiano
is just saying, what is it? The Savannah bananas? Now
that's how we're picking players. No, it's an exhibition game.
It's not like this kid doesn't getting anything done. Historically,
he's got four wins ear end or three and thirty
three punch outs. There's only been like six or seven
guys who started this way. He earned his way on
the team. I felt bad for the kid. I thought
(15:12):
he handled it well. The blowback was certainly not his fault,
but it came his way because people didn't think he
was quote unquote deserving. I expected better at Phillies here.
Just a bad look at the whining and complaining when
they were bagging out of the game themselves.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
That's the main point I believe right there, the fact
that the reason why he was even considered to be
on the team was because of how they reacted to everything,
or not be wanted to be there.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Part of it Wheelers, especially specifically.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
They tell you let me jump in here, go ahead.
Major League Baseball went through twenty different pictures before they
finally got to this kid and said would you like
to play? And when he heard and we said yes,
he broke down crying. It meant so much to go
to the game. It wasn't like he was on the
original roster at all. They had to go twenty names
down the list to give Hi an invite.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Well, see, that needs to be known.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I mean that needs to because I was not aware
of that to be stated, because quite frankly, when I
heard it, I was like I was kind of surprised
by the whole thing. I haven't seen him pitch yet,
but the minimal numbers of pitching appearances whatever. I know
he throws one hundred miles an hour. I know, I know,
I know, but you would think there's more deserving and
you're just you just described it really well that they
went through an entire litany of names in order to
(16:24):
fill spots, and that see, that's that's where the Phillies
have to back off a little bit, and especially, like
you said, if their own boys decided that they did
not want to do it. I've not seen him pitch yet,
I've heard all about him. I'm looking forward. I'm going
to make sure that I look for probables and see
what he's going to pitch. I could check it out.
It's and again for him, it could be once in
(16:44):
a lifetime thing. Who knows. Injuries occur, things happen, whatever.
So his reaction was great. I saw the video when
he was told in the locker room by Skipper that
he was going to the All Star Game and his
reaction to it. He had to stand in front of
the players and make a little speech, and you could
just see, like like you just said, Tom swear there
(17:04):
he goes. There's a couple of different ways to look
at this, but the main component of it, I believe
is the fact that so many folks turned him down
and he was on on this list of later a
potential All Stars based on the fact that a lot
of people walked away from it.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, and listen again, it's the entertainment part, right, I mean,
are there more deserving people? If you want to break
it down statistically, I would say yes. I mean I
thought Emilio Pagan to the Reds great first half, you know,
definitely had an argument to go to the All Star Game.
But this is a kid who's taken the game by storm.
I mean he beat the Dodgers with one walk and
(17:42):
twelve strikeouts. Since the Dodgers have been in LA, only
Dwight Gooden has done that at such a young age.
I mean, he's a phenom. Folks want to see this
guy pitch, and it's no offense to Emelio Pagan again,
great season, veteran guy back into the Reds bullpen. I
got a good argument, but when it comes to entertainment,
I want to see the guy throw it. One hundred
(18:03):
and two says the ball seven and a half feet
in front of the rubber, with a crazy spin rate
and a low release angle like a Jacob de Grom.
I have him Joe statistically with the best fastball in
the major leagues. When you break down its qualities.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
It's interesting. I got to watch them.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
And then just going back to another point, if the
game mattered, if the game really mattered and he was not, yeah,
you didn't want Pegne at the end of the game
as a relief pitcher, so you might want, you know,
a roster construction might look a little bit differently under
those circumstances.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
But again, like.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
You you've stated it, and we've talked about exhibition game,
it takes on an entirely different light under those circumstances.
And on top of that, those that choose or do
not want to go that step away from it, and
then you have to be replaced. And then it's going
to be compounded by those even though they're healthy enough
and they're well enough, and they're within the guidelines of
being able to do these things, they choose not to
(18:57):
go for a variety of personal reasons whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
So again, this is just where we're at.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Man a lot to unpack with this. I'm happy for
the kid. I'm eager to watch him pitch. I've read
about him, got a great name, and I just I
got to see this for myself.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Moving on to point four ABS, and we're not talking
about the breaking system on Joe's truck, right, this is
the automatic ball strike challenge system. I cannot wait to
hear what Joe Madden has to say about the use
of ABS. We'll take a quick break and we'll dive
into that next. Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast.
(19:46):
We're talking about a fascinating All Star game. A lot
to unpack here as we are doing, including the first
use in a real game, so to speak. I say real,
it didn't count, but we're talking about pure major leaguers.
I know they used it in spring training when you
got guys in the minor leagues up as well. But
the automatic ball strikes is the more players, the batter
of the pitcher and the catcher have the opportunity to
(20:07):
challenge a ball strike called by an umpire, and very
quickly we can all look in real time as it
unfolds in graphic form whether that pitch was a strike
or a ball. Joe, I'm gonna start with you.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
He saw it in action in the All Star Game.
It was used five times, four overturns, one upheld.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
What do you think, well, independent of all that, because
of course it's gonna work. I mean, it's going to
be accurate all the above.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
It it is that.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
And what it then leads to is no arguments.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
You know. That's the thing.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's like, this is going to it's part of my
perfection where we're seeking perfection. And I remember, I don't
know how many times I walked in front of Troy
Gloss when he was at Third Basement the Angels. Troy
and I became very close, and he'd start beating himself
up a couple bat at bats whatever, and I say,
I used to call him Roy and instead of Troy.
Perfection is a boring concept. It takes humanity out of everything.
(21:01):
So I used to say this to him, just walking
by his locker after a couple of tough days. So
we're getting perfection, which then subtracts emotion, and then here's
there's no longer any arguments. Briestly, I saw a game
Balls and Strikes. I can't remember who it was, but
it led to this great argument stirred the fans up.
Manager gets ejected. It might have been Carlos Mendoze's a matter, Carlos.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
That was an old school rant, right.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I mean, so now that's no longer in existence. When
you're going to be everything's gonna be dictator, you know,
the calls even on the basis And I got ejected
for after they called New York and they come back
and I thought the call was still wrong, and then
you're not supposed to say anything, but I did, and
I got ejected for arguing with somebody two thousand miles away.
That's the part that I think you have to be
careful with because again we've talked about it is entertainment.
(21:49):
Isn't our game entertainment. We just talked about the entertainment value.
And I still want to believe it's entertaining to have
a manager come out make a full out of himself
to defend his team. And if the more we seek
perfection and include technology to the point where there's no
reason argue anymore, there's no reason to come out there
kick dirt on home plate, the emotion becomes less than
(22:12):
so to me, the one thing that's the part of it.
It's not spoken about. Enough is that? And then Mendoza
incites his team, stirs it up, defends his guys. All
these opportunities that you have right there that may not
seem important from a distance, but I promise you and
you know that from a dugout in the clubhouse, they are.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
So that's how I look at it. It's not you know,
the number of.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Challenges right or wrong, Okay, we changed the couple whatever.
I'm just looking at from the perspective that abs system
will diminish emotion and prevent and really not even diminished,
prevent forever arguments because there's no reason to.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I'm glad you said that, Joe, and I thought you
were going to go there, because I think that's an
important let's call it a disclaimer or warning label that
should go on not just Major League Baseball, but basically
all of our society. As we can continue to go
farther down the path of technology and automation, it is dangerous.
There's no question you still have to have room for
(23:13):
the human element. With that being said, I will tell
you that I do like this system. I do not
like you know, hopefully it does not lead to a
full on you know, robotics strike zone being called all
the time by machinery. I think that would be a travesty.
But I do like it for a couple of reasons, Joe.
There is fan engagement. The fans totally loved it last night,
(23:33):
and the players actually loved it too. I mean, I
get it's it's it's a novelty right now. It will
cease being a novelty after a month of a season,
so everybody was interested in seeing how it played out,
and it worked really well, and the fans got into it.
There's no question. We see that in tennis with the Hawkeye,
and they have not gotten used to the novelty. It's
still a cool thing for the fans. That is this
(23:54):
fan engagement part of it. So I like that. I
think it introduces strategy, and I'm in favor of anything
that introduces strategy into the game of baseball. You have
to be judicious about when you these challenges. It's like
Aaron Boone told his group American League players last night.
He said, go ahead and challenge if you want, but
I just have one rule. You better be right, you know,
(24:14):
don't be wrong. Don't be wasted a challenge in the
first inning on an OH one pitch you only get two.
You keep it if you're right. But he basically putting
his players on morning, as every manager should like. Don't
be frivolous about it. You have to be really strategic
about it. And the other thing is I wouldn't let
my pitchers challenge. Pictures are the worst judges. They think
(24:34):
everything is a strike. They're too far away, and catchers
who have a really good idea of the strike zone.
The same with framing, they're not all created equal. That's
going to be a skill. If you're really good at
determining if that ball's a strike or not, you can
really change counts and sometimes change a game because of that.
But I do like the idea, like when we have
it on the basis the real purpose is not to
(24:57):
allow that one egregious call to decide a game. Now
you're gonna have a lot of hair splitting exercises more
then you're gonna have those, But that's what you're trying
to avoid. You know that bases loaded three to two pitch,
that's well, the strike's on strike. Three inning over. Now
you have a challenge, you have a fallback. I'm okay
with that. I might actually reduce it, Joe, to one
(25:17):
challenge per team, because I even felt like last night
five of them was a little too much, you know,
And they found in the minor leagues that like four
or five is the right number if you stop the
game down because the umpires having a bad night six
or seven times, that's not good for the game. So
I would actually maybe reduce it to one. But that's
(25:37):
subject I think to change as we go forward.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Beta was a good idea versus VHS, wasn't it, And
so was three D TV, and so was the Edsel.
You know that all these things came on board, and
having done the job to be sending in a dugout
it really again just waiting for the judge to declare
his verdict being some kind of hawkeye system, whatever it
(26:01):
might be, and just having to accept that without having
me the opportunity even except times, you know, the umpire
might be right, but you still got to go there
and just stir it up a little bit. Maybe you
could still do that, I don't know, maybe start arguing
against the system itself. But you just mentioned something there
that there's some umpires that aren't so good. So ball
strike guys, you know on the basis. I guess everybody's
(26:24):
almost a perfect umpire on the basis these days, right,
I mean, is it? Although there's going to be a
couple times when you can't challenge, maybe around a challenge whatever,
but the umpires on the basis.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I'd love to see the data how many times different
umpires have been overruled on the basis, Joe, that's a
great point. You just say, because they they're perfect, because
they have a fallback system of technology. That's how many
times do you not get it right? We should know that,
just like we know errors that players make.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Well, you're gonna have to then know the challenge system
with balls and strikes too. I mean, there's that little
thing on Twitter, the umpires scorecard. I've gone through that
several times, and I'll look at the umpire's name and
I try to guess how good are bad at score
is going to be before I look down at the results,
and I'm almost always right. So again it's going to
(27:08):
expose even though it's exposed bad calls on the basis,
nobody really seems to care, even though the scorecard might
all look good for an umpire, And there's the come
plate umpire. I think might come into a little bit
more scrutiny with that, because there's still going to be
a limited number of challenges, and like you said, if
you're out of your challenges and all of a sudden,
here comes a bad call ony after the ninth inning,
(27:28):
there's going to be some kind of a blowback with
the fans being upset that we don't have enough challenges
at the end of the game when it really mattered
because we were stripped.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Of them earlier in the game.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I think this is going to go to a lot
of different directions eventually, based on the limit umber of
challenges and the fact that you could still lose that
three to two count with two outs because you're out
of challenges in a latter part of the game whenever.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
So I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
My biggest concern, Go ahead and do it, But I'm
as a manager, I've lost this vehicle where I could
actually lose my mind a little bit in an attempt
to stir my team up somewhat. A couple years ago,
there's an umpire in Oakland that he said something to
Max Dassy, my catcher, and I never saw Max.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
He was hitting at the time. Max and he said.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Something the Empire did and I've never seen Max like that.
He come back to the dug got asked him, what
did he say to you? And he told me, I'm
not gonna mention the guy's name. I'm not going to
tell you what he said. But I walked out to
the plate and I stood on home plate, would not
permit the picture to warm up, and I demanded that
the Empire apologized to Max before we start the inning,
(28:36):
because it was that was that crude and rude and wrong.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
So but he gave me this opportunity to show Max
I'm there for Max kind of a thing.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
So anyway, I don't like when my job is mitigated
in a sense because I'm no longer that was a
part of it, man And you look through the history
of managers and what they were able to do and
part of their motivational techniques that's being stripped a little bit.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, Now it's about how good is your replay guy,
how quick he is on the trigger when he makes
the right calls. Right, I mean, it's crazy, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Because I just thought of Chico Fernandez, my boy with
the Rays, one of the funniest guys and he's no
longer there, one of the funniest guys in all of
Major League Baseball.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
One more point on the All Star Game. I'm not
sure if you saw it, Joe, but the tribute to
Hank Aaron was they missed it technological marvel. It was
just a brilliant, stirring moment with photographic mapping, projection mapping
on the field of highlights from the Run seven fifteen
in nineteen seventy four. They basically played out the bat
(29:38):
in multiple media, including having fireworks mimic the ball going
out of the park, and they somehow arranged for this
firework to be shot off with a comet tail going
at the same speed a baseball would travel leaving the yard.
It was just remarkable, befitting someone as remarkable and as
(29:59):
heroic as Henry Aaron. Just a great night in Atlanta,
and hey, I guess it was fitting that, you know,
at the end of the night, and by the way,
it was almost midnight in Georgia to bring back a
lot oft night in the Pips when the swing off
was being held, that's beautiful and it came down to
who can hit home runs on the night when we
honored truly the home run King.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
I gotta go here on this one. I obviously remember
exactly where I was when I watched that. I was
at Jack's Kesslerville, in a barroom at Lafayette out in
the country. Jack was a former vaudevillian. He was in
his eighties at that time, and told me eighty Collins
was the best baseball player he ever saw, and he
saw shoeless Joe Jackson in that whole group. Jack would
(30:40):
recite poetry. He would drink kognak every night, stand in
a corner, and he get little hammered enough that he'd
go with faces on the barroom floor, casey at the bat,
all from heart and with all the trimmings of his
time spent in vaudeville. But I saw it in a
black and white, probably a fourteen inch TV above the
(31:00):
bar at Jack's Kesslerville Inn.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
It's a tremendous man for me.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
It was stirring night then and it still is. It's
one of those historical moments that still can raise the
hair on your forearms. And especially I'm glad they used,
you know, multiple calls at the home run, but especially
Vin Scully, the master at framing a moment in this case,
not just a baseball moment, but a moment of American history.
Just a terrific job all the way around with that.
(31:26):
So it was March second, nineteen seventy four, by the way,
that Gladys Knight and the Pips won a Grammy for
Midnight Train to Georgia. And it was thirty seven days
later in Georgia that Hank Aaron hit number seven fifteen.
And it was last night in Atlanta in Georgia, near
midnight on seven point fifteen, that we had the first
(31:49):
swing off in All Star history.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Enough said, right there, brother, that's perfect, perfect.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Great night for baseball.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I really thought it was a good showcase of you know,
the talent in the game and moving the game forward.
There's no question about that. And the bottom line for me,
Joe is the players will let you know. And the
most important part to me of that night was how
much the players enjoyed that game. I know the fans did,
and we're here for the fans, but to see the
(32:16):
players buy in like that, that was the highlight for me.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yeah. I mean, it's the play exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
The players will let you know, and I'm sure the
format is going to stay similar for the years to come,
and I think now because of the success of last
night and the word of mouth spread by the guys,
you might see more players willing and wanting to go
to this event and be more accepting of it and
again realize you're still going to get two full days
(32:41):
off afterwards. Plush the experience of being at an All
Star game. I went to three one as a bench coach,
too as a manager, and I could break them down
for you very well, each one different. Two of them counted,
one did not, but even one that did not count,
it was kind of upset. We lost in X Rainnings
Way Davis through Home under Robinson Cano and that was it.
(33:01):
But nevertheless, it's special. Man, It's like it's a condemned was.
I always felt like a condensed version of the World Series,
Like there's so much happening. You get there the first
day and then home in Derby, you're signing autographs, you're
doing interviews, you're talking to people. Second that you're playing
the game, and it's just like a non it's like
con Bearer Belt of NonStop activity all day and then
(33:21):
eventually you win or lose.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Then you got to get out of there.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And you just take your Hellcat and you drive across
the Alligator Alley one hundred and twenty five miles an
hour heading Naples, Florid.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
It was fantastic.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
There's a non All Star game piece of news I
have to ask Joe Madden about. But just to close
the book on the All Star Game, Joe, I'm not
sure if this was done when you were managing the team,
but a lot of got players, especially the first timers
we're talking. Apparently there's a room like a swag room
of gratis. You know, it's provided by sponsors, and it
(33:54):
is Christmas morning time twenty essentially, you know, electronic companies
and gadgets, you name it, where players just go in
there and load up. Did they have that when you
were around?
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Oh yeah, yep, yep.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
And you go in there and you try to be
you know, civil about it. I mean, you're not gonna
you want to get you want to you know, take something.
I think back dad a really cool backpack when I
was in Miami that I think I still have.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
But otherwise, yes, it's it's it is.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Christmas morning and then some a little bit more sticky
fingers than others.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
That's the way I can describe it.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
So, how do you stay home?
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Right right? Well, yeah, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I guess it sounds like once you.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Get there, you're fine. It's the thought of it.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
How many times is the thought of it keep it
from wanting to do something and then we actually engage
in whatever it is and we're so happy.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
We did it.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Good stuff, Joe. Hey, the subject I want to ask
you about involves your Tampa Bay Rays, who are all
over the news. We'll talk about that right after this
on the Book of Joe. A couple of big pieces
(35:07):
of news to talk about on the Book of Joe
involving the Tampa Bay Rays. Number one, they will be
if they qualify for the postseason, playing all their home
games at a minor league ballpark George M. Steinbrennerfield, where
they're playing the regular season games. There had been some
talk about moving games to Miami, maybe Atlanta, maybe Texas,
(35:27):
an actual major league facility ain't happening. And number two,
and this is actually related from what I found out,
the Rays are being stold. Stue Sternberg, who bought the
team back in four for two hundred million dollars, is
getting one point seven billion dollars for the Tampa Bay Rays,
a franchise that does not actually even have a home park,
(35:49):
you know, their usual park, which is always felt temporary
to me. The trop is still under repair. It should
be ready by next season from what people are saying.
But the new owner wants to keep the team, apparently
in Tampa. So the whole push hole between Saint Pete
and Tampa looks like that's ending. Give me your thoughts
here on these two developments, Joe, the Rays will be
(36:12):
playing if they make the World Series, they'll be playing
at a ten thousand seat stadium, and the fact that
they are being sold for a billionaire developer who apparently
wants to keep them on the Tampa side.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, first of all, the playing in that ballpark, I
thought about that from the beginning, you know, because it
definitely playoff caliber group on an annual basis, what are
you gonna do? So I really thought that that should
have been addressed like almost from Jump Street, like listen,
and by the way, if we get to the playoffs,
if the Rays got to the playoffs, they're staying right here.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Okay, I have no issue with that. Really.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
I think the biggest thing there is the financial part
of it, where you know, the receipts from people coming
to the ballpark. Somebody's gonna have to make up where
it somehow. MLB is going to have to I think
augment the kiddie. There's going to be a different way
to draw to conclusion the amount of money made there
regarding distribution to the players and the staffs whatever host
winning or losing a World Series or just getting in
(37:02):
the playoffs in general.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
So I think, just to follow up on that, Joe,
you're absolutely right, because you know it takes a certain
amount of infrastructure. There's logistics associated with this, and as
you know, the players get a share of the postseason gates, right,
and if you're playing in a ten thousand seats stadium
instead of fifty thousand and Dodgers Stadium or forty five
thousand Yankee Stadium, those numbers are going way down. And
(37:24):
Major League Baseball actually acquires it holds about seventy five
hundred tickets for every venue in the World Series for
their media, corporate sponsors, you name it, right. You can't
do that at a ten thousand seat stadium. So there
are logistical problems with it. Such a small ballpark to
host the biggest event in baseball. So your point is
(37:47):
well taken here. But I think the point also, Joe,
is that I believe because the team is being sold right,
and a guy who wants to keep the team in Tampa,
the worst thing would be to pull the rug out
from under those fans and have the game be played
somewhere else. Trying to establish roots in Tampa.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
One hundred percent, and it's going to stay there. I
totally believe that. I heard the commissioners say that it would.
I just think, like you're saying, it's to extrapolate the
money out somehow, if you had played enough thirty five
thousand to forty seed stadium, what would have looked like?
Speaker 3 (38:19):
But you're hit on another thing.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I had not thought about tickets, like for family, you know,
stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
That becomes really difficult.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
And then you know, corporate people, they're probably gonna they'd
have to erect some kind of temporary whatever's there to
accommodate more folks. I don't know how much the Yankees
would appreciate that, but I'm sure there's going to be
deals to be made regarding what could stay and how
it's going to benefit them down the road. But they're
gonna have to extrapolate the amount of money made in
a normal playoff situation if the stadium had like as
(38:49):
thirty five or forty thousand seats, and how are we
going to make it good? How they're going to push
that money into that pot somehow and eventually make it
look kind of normal, even though that's not exactly what
they took in. I can't see the prices getting any
really that much higher, because after all, they're pretty extreme
right now.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
Although who knows.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
There might be a lottery system to get tickets. Who knows,
But I think they're gonna have to figure that out
and somehow make it good because they're not going to
be the same amount of folks and the tenants.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
I mean, imagine if the Yankees are playing the Ras
the ALCS places, those tickets are going to be. There's
only ten thousand tickets to watch the Yankees and raise
play for the American League.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Pennant, that's right, that this could be nuts. It could
absolutely crazy.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
You're right crazy, But I do think there's linkage here, Joe.
I think if the team were not being sold right,
it would have been easier. And I know Major League
Baseball at least discussed it. Obviously, you think about any scenario,
what's going to happen if, and you prepare for anything.
But I think it would have been easier to consider
a place like Miami. Now, listen, if the Tigers are
playing the Rays in Miami and Lone Depot Park or
(39:55):
whatever they're calling that these days, you're not going to
fill the place. I'm sorry, your ALCS is gonna have
a lot of empty seats. And that's not a good
look either. So I think the bottom line here is
they are doing the right thing. It's going to create
logistical nightmares. I mean, to put together a championship series,
and especially a world series and involves literal physical infrastructure
(40:17):
with all the cameras, all the media coming from all
over the world. That press box there is so small.
I don't want to say it's a nightmare scenario because
it would actually be a little bit of fun attached
to playing such a big event in a small venue,
But it would be a headache figuring out how to
squeeze twenty pounds of potatoes in a ten pounds sec.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
A lot of offsite stuff could be done there. I mean,
Raymond James is right across the street, and who knows
how they could somehow meet large screens, you know, the
press box. Like you said, they're not gonna be able
to accommodate everybody, so they might be able to set
things up right across the street. The parking lot there
is rather large too, ray j So all that stuff
is central to each other. So they're going to have
to be very creative on how to tie that all together.
(40:58):
Who knows, maybe even charge a certain amount of money
to go into Raymond James and watch it on this
massive screen somehow.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
But it's there.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
The facilities are there outside of that ballpark. But it's
been said, and I believe it's going to stay there.
And now it's up to the race to make things
really difficult.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yes, And if I can put you on the spot,
Joe Manna, because you know that market so well, you've
lived it, you've breathed it. Is this now the way forward,
the better way forward? Because let's face it, the new
owner here, Patrick Zapolski, he's not inheriting the history, right.
Stus Sternberg had to kind of walk between Tampa and
Saint Pete and try to appease both sides. You know
(41:34):
we're going to build, couldn't get anything built on the
Tampa side, and then his latest plan kind of fell
apart to build on the current side of the TRUP.
So a new owner doesn't have that history to inherit necessarily,
at least personally, So maybe it's a little bit easier
for him to get sort of the political capital to
just focus on Tampa and where that is. I don't know,
(41:56):
you know that area better than me. I know some
people talk about the east side of Tampa, so you
can tap into the Orlando market. But give me your take, Joe,
what this means for the future of the Rays and
what their permanent home might be.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Well, the first thing I have to understand the kind
of the politics of the place. I mean, one of
the first pieces of advice I got when I got
there was never referred to it as Tampa Raised or
never referred to it as Saint Petersburg rais to either
the Tampa Bay Rays or the Tampa Bay Tampa Saint
Pete Rays. I mean, it's really either side gets really
offended when they're not included. So, first of all, if
(42:30):
it's going to be Tampa only and with all the
closeness regarding the potential of the new stadium and everything
happening in Saint Petersburg. I'm curious how that's going to
play out, because there's going to be some upset people
on that side of the Howard Franklin and the Gandhi
Causeways bridges there because they don't like that.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
It's been like.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
A Hafield McCoy situation for years, and I've always was like,
really curious as to why the area just can't come together.
It's such a wonderful place live. I like both sides,
and I think it's such a dynamic area. To really
unify on both sides of that those bridges are causeways
and become more unified in regards to what we're trying
(43:09):
to get done here, it could be unbelievably spectacular because
it is that good. I love the place. I feel
like it's a second home. So from that perspective, that's
going to be dealt with that first. I think there's
a lot of people upset if, in fact, it moves
to Tampa over Saint Pete. Now it's having said all that,
I've always felt it should be in Tampa and not
Saint Pete it's just where it's located. Saint Petersburg is
(43:30):
very difficult to get to. I drive that Howard Franklin
and the Gandhy at different times of the day to
go to Saint Pete Country Club, and I'm telling you, man,
when that backs up, it's tough and there's no other
way to get there. So that's always been a concern
on that side, and especially when you're talking about dinner time,
where whenever the game begins, where it repels people from
coming from Tampa over you're going to get the same
(43:52):
thing and reverse people from Saint Pete are not going
to want to go to Tampa. Traffic is tough, and
it keeps getting tougher because Florida's becoming more and more popular.
Having said all that, I agree, I think the new
ballpark I've always felt it should be on the Tampa side,
and I love Eybor City area Channel Cyber. Mister Vinnick
has done a great job, spectacular job with the lightning
(44:16):
and what they've built over there. It's really it's a vibrant,
really groovy area over there. It's near downtown Tampa, it's
near a South Tampa, which is where I used to live.
And South Tampa has. It's really an extraordinary little almost
like a hamlet. It's like a place, a great little
restaurant shops. The topography is great, the water's right there,
(44:37):
bike trails, everything he wants right there. So and like
you suggest that the greater proximity from Orlando, so you
might gain something from that side, but you might get
upset people not wanting to come over from Saint Pete also.
But nevertheless, I think the sitelines the ability to build
something really special there that will attract in the near future.
(44:57):
In the future definitely would get an All Star Game
if they really built it up properly, a nice which
they will. I always thought a something that appeals to
the entire ya not just build a baseball stadium, but
build a baseball stateia that includes the.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
Arts, the youth of the area.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Make it multi fast, not just maybe the ballpark is
the ballpark, but it's just spread it out a little
bit and appeal to everybody, because a large part of
the controversy has always been that they don't want to
put that much money towards just a baseball facility only.
So I'm saying, stretch it out, make it appeal to
everybody because the area is that vibrant, it's that alive,
and it's that interesting. So yes, I vote on the
(45:36):
Tampa side. I love both sides. I think Saint Pete's
been to Saint Pete lately. It's just booming.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Man.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
It's beautiful what they've done down there.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
They really have a great art culture down there, and
the restaurants downtown are fabulous. It's just that it's difficult
to get in and out of. So that's what I think.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
And folks, that's why you listen to the Book of Joe.
You ask Joe a question and you get an answer.
No obfuscation, no filigree, no answering, no agendas. Here's my
answer to your question. I love that, and that's why Joe.
I come to you each time to end our episodes
with more wisdom. And you somewhat hinted, but you held
(46:16):
back your hint early in the podcast on where you
were going for our thought of the day. So now's
your time. What do you got?
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Well again?
Speaker 2 (46:25):
I listened to that interview by with Commissioner Manfred and
I was listening what he said and how he said it.
It made me really ruminate over I mean listened Like
I said, I've been in those situations where.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
You're you're charge your leader and you're you're pushing forth
a new agenda and you believe it's good.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
You want to believe it's good, but you don't know
what to actually get it done and see it in
operation to know that maybe this the thought process was
that good.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
So this is from cerial false see why r I L.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I don't know who this person is, but it really
I thought Nail that leadership is particularly necessary to ensure
ready acceptance of the unfamiliar and that which is contrary
to tradition.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
It's exactly what's going on. He's as a leader.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
It's necessary to ensure the acceptance of the unfamiliar, the unfamiliar,
with the whole game was unfamiliar, a lot of that
game was unfamiliar yesterday, and that it's absolutely contrary to
to tradition, and you have to be a strong leader
to fight through those thoughts and roadblocks whatever.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
So that's what I thought.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
I really thought he demonstrated well what he believes in
what he's doing. And this little quote, when you're fighting
things that are contrary to tradition, not easy.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
That's great stuff. And Ironically, that's exactly what the commissioner
is also doing as he works toward a new CBA
where he's going on as speaking toward to teams to
actually talk to the players about you talk about fighting tradition,
about changing the economic system of Major League Baseball. That
is the riddle of the sphinx when you try to
(48:03):
solve that. But he's that's the tradition he's fighting. Good
luck with that that. We'll save all that for another episode.
But it's a great Court of the day and even
nailed it once again, Joe.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Thank you brother. This has been fun. I appreciate you.
I'm I'm how shall I say, I'm challenging myself with
all of this because I'm a traditionalist and I think
I always will be, and I could the thing you
brought it up earlier about the game, I really the
part's about the change of the game that bothered me
the most is when you interfere with strategy. That's what
bothers me the most because I think as a manager,
(48:38):
I lose an edge if I'm strategically stronger than the
guy and the other dugout. So a lot of the
rules I think have impacted strategy and that's where I
become desjointed with this whole thing. On the other hand,
I was like at the lead a lot of situations
with analytics and shifts in you know, breaking down reverse
splits and all these different things that I did and
(49:00):
organizing a day and how everybody else is doing it
right now. So I have broken from tradition in the past.
I remember my motivation was, how about this. I walked
into the I was ordered with the be with the
angels at the Big Club to throw VP at one time,
and I walked I'm walking out at the end of
the night, and the next day's hitters the guys coming
out early were written literally on a napkin in pen
(49:20):
and thumbtack to the board, and that really bothered me.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
I'm thinking, Okay, we're in the big leagues.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Is it that unsophisticated in regards to getting our point across?
So that one moment when I saw that napkin thumbtack
really did it pushed me to research more into computers
and putting my work on computers and being able to
create forms to do my works that I could.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Change them more quickly when it.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
Was necessary, All because of a thumb tacked napkin indicating
the two or three hitters for next day's early work.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
That's what all began for me.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Great stuff, Joe. The next time we talk, we will
be into the second half, and we're actually by games,
well into the second half, already only about sixty something
games eames remaining in the season. It's crazy, but let
the sprint begin. The next time we talk, we'll we're
talking about the second half of the baseball season.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Cool. And the last point is it's like a roll
of toilet paper. The closer to you get to the
end of faster it goes.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Man Shakespeare couldn't have said it better.
Speaker 3 (50:17):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
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