The Book of Joe: Baseball in Crisis?

In this episode of 'The Book of Joe Podcast', Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci look at the rate that pitchers are already getting injured.  Has baseball failed a generation of pitchers?  Baseball biomechanics expert Glenn Fleisig returns to look at how players on the mound are being handled.   Joe explains why he always felt responsible when one of his pitchers was injured.  Tom wants to know how fewer fastballs being thrown affects the injury rate.  Glenn explains what baseball is doing for this issue and the actions coming on the horizon.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, and welcome back to the latest edition of
the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and
of course Joe Medden and Joe. I wish we had

(00:25):
a better topic to talk about right now, but to me,
the topic in baseball right now is baseball is in
crisis when it comes to pitchers' health. Things really hit
the wall over the weekend, some back and forth between
the Players Association and the Union, but more importantly, this
is the way I put it, Joe, and I want

(00:46):
your response to this. Baseball as an industry, and I'm
talking about Major League Baseball teams, I'm talking about the
amateur market, I'm talking about training facilities has been an
abject failure in terms of this generation of pictures. I
say that because they are succeeding with ta teaching pictures
how to throw and especially to throw harder, but they

(01:09):
are failing at the most basic mission of any kind
of endeavor, and that is personal health. And that the
rate that pictures are breaking down is telling me that
the system that's in place now is broken. It's not sustainable,
and it needs change. So listen, we had individual anecdotal

(01:29):
information Joe this week about several pictures going down with injuries,
blown out elbows, Jure Perez, the Marlins, Spencer, Strider of
the Braves, just to name a couple. The list goes
on and on. We know that, Joe. I want to
get your response. You've been in this game so long,
You've given so much of this game. You care about players.
I know how deeply you do care about them and

(01:51):
their own health. Give me your reaction to what has
been going on, not just this week, but really I
want to say over the last half decade to decade.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, first off, when you talk about a picture getting hurt.
As a manager, whenever one of my pitchers was injured,
I always thought it was my fault. It's fore to
God I did, and that would bother me more than anything.
And I'll remember when specifically it was JP Howell, who
had already come from the University of Texas with the shoulder.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
That had been banged up pretty good. Did not throw
that hard.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
JP did not throw hard, however, great movement, great dum, makeup,
tough guy, and he ended up getting hurt. And I
thought I was partly responsible for that, and I tell you,
that bothered me a lot. So anytime I could go
back to Doug Banny, who we try to actually injure
to try to find out specifically, I it was a
burst of sack or not in his shoulder, and I'm

(02:42):
told to pitch you more often to see if we
could flare this thing up.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
That bothered me a lot.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
So when it comes to pitchers' injuries as a manager,
that would bother me as much as anything. When we
lost the guy and I thought, some ways, this is
my fault. I never even thought about training techniques. You know,
how he's thrown, specifically, how his arm was working, whatever,
velocity was never question at that time, as he tried
to throw too hard. I always was concerned about coming
out of a delivery. I was always concerned with the

(03:08):
young pitchers when I had rookie ball guys, low A
ball guys that got out hitters by using splits or
fork balls at that time, with the nothing behind the
ball except air and their fingers split wide apart, and
they're trying to deceive A ball hitters and getting them
out with this pitch that these kids couldn't hit. They're
going to chase major leag hitters aren't going to chase.
These are the things that bothered me, and then more

(03:30):
specifically today and you already touched on here what Glenn
has to say. But it's obviously velocity and the chasing
of velocity. I mean, I watched these videos of the
training where the with the guys take a crow hop
what Bauer does it before he throws his first pitch
of an inn, he takes a girl out from behind
the mount and throws to his catcher. But maybe that's

(03:50):
just one pitch. And I don't know how he trains specifically,
but to watch guys throw into mattresses or nets as
hard as they possibly can and with no concern about control, command,
how to get hitter out. My pitching is art for
none of that. It's just to try to throw as
hard as I can to get to the big leagues.
And I don't even think they have a concern for
the length of their careers. Quite frankly, I don't. I

(04:13):
think it's just about getting there. It's about maybe making
this original amount of money and then hoping it's enough.
And even those that are consulting with them, those that
are in charge of their careers, basically they're too young
to understand that. I'm kind of disappointed in all that.
So it's the chasing of velocity. It's the not being
concerned with the art of pitching and how to get

(04:34):
hitters out and the fact that there's a reward behind that,
and that we're just creating this conveyor belt of velocity.
So that quite frankly inn organization. If one guy gets injured,
I don't think they're that concerned if they have other
velocity on the conveyor belt. So succinctly that's what I think.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Well, listen, I've always been about cutting through false narratives,
cutting through anecdotal information. I want to understand why this
is happening with if there is any empirical evidence or
scientific evidence, not just people speaking off the top of
their heads. And that includes Tony Clark who had this
terrible statement over the weekend blaming the pitch timer and

(05:13):
how the players voted against the pitch timer, the two
seconds off the clock. We're two weeks into the season,
Tony with it two seconds off the pitch timer, and
the evidence from last year with the pitch timer showed
no appreciable difference in injury rate, don't give me that.
Don't go back and litigate the CBA again that you
got your folks voted against it. This has been going
on for years, not just last year. So to cut

(05:36):
through all this, I'm bringing in an expert, Joe and
you mentioned if Glenn Flisik. He is biomechanics research director
at the American Sports Medicine Institute. He is a consultant
too Major League Baseball. He's one of the foremost practitioners
in this field of biomechanics. Glenn, thanks for joining us.
We've had you on the show before, and here we
are back again, seemingly talking about very similar things. The

(05:58):
correlation between and Joe brought this up, velocity and pitchers
breaking down. It seems to be stronger as velocity goes up.
Give me your take specifically how it relates to this.
I call it an epidemic of injuries and specifically the
increase in velocity.

Speaker 4 (06:16):
There's a lot of stuff there, Tom and I agree
with you guys on everything you're saying. First of all, scientifically,
there's no doubt that the average velocity has been a
rising in Major League Baseball for the last ten years.
And there's no doubt that the number of pitching injuries
have been rising, and if you grab them right next
to each other, they almost look like the same graph. Now,
so that proves that as pitchers are pitching faster, we're

(06:39):
getting more injuries. That does not prove that the velocity
is causing the injuries. Okay, I do think that's the reason,
but that's not the proof. I want to back up
and tell you we've done what's called biomechanics research, where
we've tested baseball pitchers with the markers on their body
or in games, and we've measured the forces in their
elbow in particular, which is related to the Tommy John

(07:02):
type injuries. The data is very convincing and statistically significant.
The faster you throw, the more force there is any elbow.
This is now getting a rid of opinion. This is facts,
in particular within a given picture, the faster he throws,
the more force he has. So what that's saying is

(07:23):
the worst thing a pitcher could do for his injury
risk is to throw every pitch as hard as possible
a max effort guy. Major League baseball organizations realize this
a few years ago, and so what they started doing
was the guys who they viewed as max effort guys.
They said, these will be one inning bullpen guys, and
starting pitchers were the type that mixed it up their

(07:47):
speeds and their pitch selection a little better. Now, though,
I'd say my feeling that you guys could weigh in
as well. Teams have starting pitchers as well as relief
pitchers who are max effort guys, throwing every pitch as
hard as possible, and I think that is proving to
be h the reason these starting pitchers are breaking down.

(08:08):
You can't pitch two hundred innings a year throwing everything
at max effort. What's happening is the science in baseball
is improving. I'm happy about that. I contribute to that,
but also there's a cost with that, which is we
are teaching our pictures how to get maximum velocity by

(08:28):
proper mechanics and proper strength and conditioning and proper nutrition,
and it builds their bodies stronger, except ligaments and tendons
in the joints are kind of left behind. The Tommy
John ligament, what's called the ulner collateral ligament, doesn't build
up like your muscles do. So we're seeing the cost
here that pictures are throwing as hard as possible with

(08:49):
good mechanics and good proper conditioning, their body and the
ligaments are notwithstanding this.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Glad, let me follow up on that, because I think
that's a super important point because we're seeing so many
UCL injuries ull nercollateral ligament, blowing out, tearing, et cetera.
Some of the numbers from Stan Conti, the former trainer
of the LA Dodgers, back in twenty eleven, he counted
one hundred and eleven UCL procedures. Last year twenty twenty three,
two hundred and sixty three, more than double the rate

(09:18):
within twelve years. So I want you to explain to
people the role that the UCL plays in sort of
the biomechanics of throwing, because, as you mentioned, we've done
a great job in terms of improving pitchers mechanics, strengthening
their muscles, training, conditioning, nutrition, We're building better machines, so
to speak. But the flaw in the machine does seem

(09:40):
to be the UCL. So take me inside what the
UCL is and why it's vulnerable.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
Sure, So I work with the orthopedic surgeons, doctor Andrews
who recently retired, Doctor Andrews and others, Doctor Dugas so
I get to see arthroscopically what the ligament looks like.
In addition, we have not to be too discussing, but
we have a cadaver testing lab and we cut open
human elbows and these and shoulders, and I get to
see what these ligaments look like. The ulnar coladal ligament

(10:10):
is a little triangle type of little rubber band shape thing.
It's in a triangle and each of the three branches
are really teeny maybe an inch long, and really thin.
And so this teeny little ligament which is on the
medial side of your elbow, which is the party elbow

(10:31):
that touches your hip when you put your arm next
to your body, this little ligament is a major component
in keeping your elbow integrity. In particular, Tom and Joe.
When a pitcher pitches and he cocks his arm back
so far back where his body is facing home plate,
but his arm is rotated so far back that essentially

(10:52):
the palm of his hand is facing up in that position,
the arm is rotated back we call externally rotated back
so far and then the shoulder and elbow have to
stop your arm from going back, catch it and accelerated forward.
At that point the load on the medial elbow or
the UCL is extraordinary, and in our cadaver testing we've

(11:16):
shown that it's basically redline. It's maximum is at the
maximum amount that that little ligament can withstand.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
I have a question regarding all of that, and the
fact we keep talking about better mechanics. I don't even
know how to phrase this, but I hear the term
better mechanics not knowing what that means, quite frankly, because
I've had so many different pictures through time that look different.
They all look different, nobody it was almost I've had
this conversation about cars and the way people a dress.

(11:45):
Everybody wants to be the same these days. Are we
trying to eliminate indigenous methods of throwing something that's been
built up over a period of time from a kid
at the time he's twelve eleven, He's been thrown a
certain way, and all of a sudden we look us
up and they say, well, we're going to give you
better mechanics and whatever that means. Because I don't really
know what that means. Whatever that is, we're going to
try to get you to throw this way. Is there

(12:06):
a common element in the elbows that blow up. Is
there a common element in the throwing stroke that you
could look at and say wow, or even in advance
of the guy blowing out, is there a common element
to the throwing stroke that you've seen that can tell
you in advance, this guy's a pretty good chance of
breaking down?

Speaker 4 (12:23):
Okay, So there are some things Joe, that all pictures
to succeed must do in their mechanics. And there's some
things that have individual variation. And you know, we have
this biomechanics lab and teams have biomechanics, but in nineteen
sixty pictures we're figuring it out without biomechanics lab. So
some humans have just figured out from playing catch with

(12:45):
their dad or whatever, their proper mechanics, and they've succeeded,
but others have not figured out the right way, And
then by biomechanical analysis you can give them advice what
to do better. To answer your first question, are there
proper mechanics? There are some things that you must do
based on how the human bodies put together and based

(13:05):
on how the laws of physics were. And let me
give you an example. At the shoulder, you must have
your armpit angle at ninety degrees when you're pitching the ball.
What I mean is, regardless of whether you are a
three quarter arm pitcher and over the top pitcher or
sidearm pitcher, you really should that should be differentiated by
tilting your trunk, not by raising or lowering your elbow,

(13:27):
because that's the way the shoulder joint is built. So
there are some things like that that have to be
done a certain way to be healthy and successful. However,
there are other things such as the tilt of the
trunk that is an individual variation, so it's both. Now,
as far as the elbow goes the UCL, one of
the key factors we've seen that correlates with the load

(13:50):
on the elbow is a late arm. Okay, So basically,
at the time of front foot contact, your arm should
be on its way up. Your forum should not be
totally vertical when the front foot hits. It shouldn't be horizontal,
or the wrists should not be below the elbow. It
should be almost vertical. People don't blow out their elbow

(14:11):
at the time by foot contact, but it's a great
checkpoint because everyone has a foot contact and is a
great checkpoint to make sure the timing of your arm
and your body are in sync. And so that's one
example of things that you must do to pass the
energy up to your arm and not throw just.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
With your arm.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
How much is consider what they do behind them? I mean,
what's going on?

Speaker 2 (14:32):
They could Back in the day Steve Carlton was a
wrist wrapper. Rick Suckcliff put the ball straight down. You
see today when you watch these photographs of pictures, my goodness,
it's like their shoulders are almost touching behind them where
their their right hand and their right arm gets so
far behind them it has so much farther to go.
And then to time that up with the foot hitting
the ground and getting in the proper spot is really

(14:53):
a difficult thing to do, especially if the guy's tall.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
So, I mean, how.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
Much would a guy does behind him is considered a
big fixable teachable, a part of better mechanical good.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
Right again, you're essentially talking about the arm path sure
from the time that they break their hands until the
time of foot contact. Again, what I do and what
I teach to other biomechanists is let's take a look
at where they are a foot contact and pretty much
if they got there the right place of foot contact,
I'm not too concerned how they went to get there.
So at foot contact, like I said, you want your

(15:26):
arm to be kind of up. The other important aspect
of about it, Joe, is that the elbow angle itself
should be about a ninety degree angle. We don't want
a guy who kind of short arms and holds the
bowlet next to his head. Likewise, we don't want a
guy to land a foot contact with the arm held
all the way out. A couple of years ago, kind
of short arming became in vogue. Our biomechanic studies and

(15:48):
those are Britney Dowling and some others have shown that
the safest and most effective way is still to land
with the elbow at about an L shape or about
a ninety degree and so again, to answer your question,
I'm mostly concerned about that arm path if it leads
to them not getting the right place at foot contact.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, those are great points, Glenn, and I actually each
year I will write some names in notebook when I
see people who are late loading. When that front foot
lands and that ball is still not delivered above basically
to the loaded position, that's a late loader, and that
generally is going to show maybe first in the shoulder,
but eventually in the elbow. You can see that. I

(16:28):
can see breakdowns literally waiting to happen. And I can
see what you're talking about. When the ball is loaded
and that angle is more than ninety degree, I call
it forearmed flyout with that ball is just too far
away from the head. Those are mechanical flaws. And I
understand in Major League Baseball, if you're getting people out,
it's difficult to change people because you are getting results

(16:48):
as a results oriented business. But I do believe, and Glenn,
you can correct me if I'm wrong. I think the
industry has done a much better job of identifying those
red flags and smoothing them out. I think mechanically, pitchers
are more maybe than they've ever been.

Speaker 4 (17:05):
Correct. I agree with you. I'm just reminded of a
funny story about ten years ago or so I was
with one of the major league teams had consulted me
to be in their draft room, and I was supposed
to help look at the videos of the guys before
they drafted. And I don't know who's who, you know,
I don't know these guys' names or whatever. And look
at this guy and he had totally late armed some
kid and next thing I know, I'm being called into

(17:27):
the in the principal's office the general manager's room, and
he's saying, tell me, tell me what you told the
rest of the scouts about this guy. And I'm like, well,
his arm is late and things like that. The reason
I was called into that room is because he was
their number. He was number one on their hit on
their hit list, and I think kind of what I said.

(17:48):
They didn't pick him in the first round, and he
dropped to the second round, and then they grabbed on
the second round. But then he blew out his arm
the next year, so they were not too happy about that,
but they were pretty impressed that I got that right
with the late arm guy.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Great story. Hey, listen, we're going to take a quick break.
When we get back again. I'm all about evidence, data
and not just word of mouth here, and I want
to dive into once again really getting into the effect
of velocity on pictures injuries and how quickly it has changed.
We'll do that right after this. Our guest is Glenn Flaisig.

(18:34):
He is the biomechanics research director at ASMI in Birmingham, Alabama,
and Glenn, you mentioned earlier the increase in velocity, and
I just wanted to give you a quick thumbnail of
how quickly it has gone up. Average four seen velocity
from twenty thirteen up to twenty twenty went from ninety

(18:56):
two point seven to ninety three point four. Okay, that's
eight years where it went up gradually, you know, little
by little, incrementally point seven miles per hour. In the
last three years, it has got up point eight miles
per hour. Last year it was in ninety four point two.
We're seeing tremendous increases in average annual velocity and the

(19:18):
top of the market. This is staggering to me, Glenn.
The number of pitchers throwing one hundred miles per hour
and the number of pitches at that speed is just incredible.
In twenty nineteen, only five years ago, the entire season,
there were one fifty eight pitches clocked at one hundred
miles and above. That's less than one per game. Last

(19:39):
year there were three thousand, eight hundred and eighty pitches
clocked at one hundred miles per hour. That's more than
tripled within five years. So it's not just average velocity.
What we're seeing here is the ceiling. More pitchers are
getting to that ceiling of what I call ultra velocity.
Tell me what you're seeing, Glenn.

Speaker 4 (20:01):
Yeah, I'm seeing the same thing as you. As I said,
the body can handle this, and where I wear in
this situation is on both sides. It's the teams that
have been the data analytics for the teams have been
saying to the teams that the pitchers who succeed are
the ones who throw the fastest. And then the teams
have been putting heavy value on that and have been

(20:23):
signing players and training for players, and training for players
to throw as fast as possible. That trickles down and
now college pictures, high school pictures, Latin American pictures know
that their ticket to get drafted is velocity. It's not
an e er or or wins or losses. So there's
a lot of blame to go around within the major

(20:45):
league teams that they are rewarding this, and then the
pictures aren't stupid. They're chasing velocity, as Joe says, because
this is what gets rewarded. Ben Lindberg and The Ringer
put out a story recently, and he was talking about
not just some maximum velocity of pictures, but the range
of velocity of pictures. This is something I've been talking about,

(21:06):
Like I'm saying the picture is going to be most
effective and also best chance of staying healthy if they
not what their maximum velocity is, but that they have
a range lot of fastball velocities. I think that needs
to be emphasized more at the team level.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah, Joe, I actually had a question for you because
I think it's an interesting point that certainly the carrot
that's out there and the amateur and professional market is
chasing velocity. So in your years in Major League Baseball,
how much was that spoken and unspoken that we want
our guys to throw harder. We are chasing velocity.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Because you want bats to be missed. They don't want
the ball to be put in play. That's that's really
what's going on with that. And then you have the
pictures that you would pitch to contact with, which was
definitely not in vogue. I think it's becoming more in
vogue again because regardless of what analytics, analytics changes, just
like everything else, it changes, like what multiple vitamin is
good for you or not. It changes, you know, with

(22:03):
diet is good for you or not.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
Now the type of.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Pitcher where before to get somebody to pitch the contact
was absolutely abhort. And now if you have a good
defense behind you, the guy throws a ball on the ground,
you kind of dig on that because everybody's trying at
the ball in the air. So all this stuff always vacillates.
But the velocity, chasing of velocity has always been about
that missing bats and listen, I like to strike out,

(22:27):
run around third base, and less than two outs.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
I love it. Just you're kind of talking about throwing
within a range.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
So a guy that has that capability, and it doesn't
always have to be a fastball, he has to have
that other special pitch that a hitter is going to
swing and miss at when he wants him to swing
in miss at. If there's times again that if you
want to have a starting pitcher pitch more deeply in
the games consistently, I like the idea of yeah, being
able to pitch the contact, trying to get it out

(22:52):
within the first three pitches and at bat that's always
been an accent. I've here to it. When I was
in the minor leagues. Is the rover kind of running
the thing. I wanted the starters to try to get
a hitter out within the first three pitch. Then if
you get to the two stuff, they're all trying to
strike out guys with the first pitches. So listen, you've
got to get two strikes on it before you could
strike somebody out, So understand what you're doing out again,

(23:12):
the art of pitching. That's the range we're talking about
right here. So for me, I did I mean, I
like velocity. Everybody likes velocity, but I want pitchers that
could pitch another situation. They know how to get people
out based on what the hitter strengths are compared to yours.
I mean, these are the kind of thoughts that I've
always had from the dugout. But it's devolved so simply

(23:33):
because database. We're going to talk about analytics completely. We
want swings and misses, and that's really what's been chased.
After the velocity equals swings and misses. I'm saying that
other pitches you've seen the cutter become more prominent. Then
it became the elevated fastball, which I loved in Tampa
Bay years ago. The point is, I think that you
don't always have to try to throw as hard as

(23:53):
you can max velocity every pitch. The guys I've always loved,
and the guys I chase as the scout was those
that did it easily. They're almost effortless and the ball
would come out hot. And that's another thing, just a
scouting term, seeing the ball out of a pitcher's.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Hand and what it looks like.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Then I would always focus on that dirt area between
front of home plate to the catchersman man, the dudes
that had great carry on the ball. You could just
see it. I mean, I don't know how you could
describe it regarding the gun, etc. Maybe you can more
sophisticatedly with the stuff on.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
The roof these days. But I could see Carrie from
the side, and I could see swing and miss.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
So this is a long answer, but I'm wanting all
of these different things. I don't just need velocity, and
I don't want you to try to strike somebody out
on the very first pitch.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, it gets back to what Len was talking about
having a range with velocity. There is no pacing, as
you know, Joe, in the major leagues anymore. Yeah, first
of all, we don't ask pitchers to pitch three times
through a lineup, so it's go as hard as you
can for as long as you can, which generally is
about eighteen to twenty two batters. That's it. So they're
in strikeout mode from pitch one, and I'm sure redlining
like that is also part of this. And Glenn, I

(24:58):
wanted to ask you about something I looked into again.
The extreme hard throwers. To me, I hate to say this,
but it's true, are literally breakdowns waiting to happen because
the body just cannot survive the torque that is on
the UCL With pitchers who are throwing consistently in the
upper nineties, I think that is now a proven fact.

(25:20):
Unless you have some extreme outlier out there. What you're
doing is you're redlining what the human body can withstand.
So I went back and I looked at starting pitchers
who averaged ninety six and a half miles per hour
or greater since twenty nineteen. Last five seasons, twenty one pittures.

(25:41):
Eighteen of them have broken down twenty two elbow procedures.
Among those eighteen pitchers we're talking about, you know, Jacob
de gram Sanny Elcontera, Noah Sinde, Guard, Jordi Perez, Joey O'tani,
Drew Rasmus and Tyler, Glasnawz, Sean McClanahan, Walker Bueller, Brandon Wood,
Luis Sevrino. It goes on and on. To me, this

(26:03):
is not sustainable. We've been watching this for a period
of years. If I've got a guy like Jacob deGrom,
he's thrown ninety nine fastballs and ninety five sliders, I'm sorry, Glenn,
correct me if I'm wrong. The human body, unless you're
an absolute freak, cannot withstand doing that time after time.

Speaker 4 (26:22):
It's absolutely true. Like I was trying to say, anatomically,
you can get the big guys have big bones, They're
large guys that you could train to make your muscles big.
But this little owner cloudel liigment is this teeny little
rubber band thing in your elbow and all this training,
these things are just so strong, these owner cloudeal ligaments,
and clearly we're pushing them past what they can handle.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
You know, I remember talking to Chris Young when they
signed Jacob de Grom. He said, you know, we'd talked
to our training staff and we regard this as a challenge.
It's the word he used a challenge to keep him healthy.
When the anecdotal evidence tells you you're not going to
win that challenge. I'm sorry, Well.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
I was gonna say, what is the speed limit?

Speaker 4 (27:03):
Right?

Speaker 3 (27:03):
Is there a speed limit? Do you have to put
a speed limit out there?

Speaker 2 (27:05):
You have to have the the police come by within
each within each organization and try to keep a guy
to max number in order to keep him healthy. Is
is there, like you just mentioned, the people that broke
down after a certain point, is there a larger number
that stay healthy within a certain range also? And it
would that even be attracted to people.

Speaker 3 (27:23):
I don't know, but I.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Do believe you could build a really good Major League
picture minus max effort. And I still, quite frankly, I'd
like to have Marcel Latchman look at my pictures as
an example, or mister Paul Dick Paul look at my
pictures as an example. These the pitching coaches that I've
known for years that are outstanding.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
What they do.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
I want them to look at my pictures, regardless of
what any kind of data mind say to me. I
want those guys to look at my pictures right from
the You work from the ground up, and these guys
work from the ground up, and they have certain tried
and truths that they've used their.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
Entire life career.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
I really think with that you would have less breakdown
as opposed to always relying on withness perceived to be
the best mechanics via putting dots on a pitcher's bodies.
Because everybody works differently, and every kid's been throwing differently
from a certain age, I think you're better off working
within what this guy looks like and building off of
that the necessarily changing. I was always afraid as a

(28:22):
scout and then a minor league manager early on, like
rookie ball, I always talk about change his armstroke?

Speaker 3 (28:28):
Are you created kidding me?

Speaker 2 (28:29):
When Gilito had his armstroke changed a couple years ago,
a lot of immediate success with that. It looked great,
he went into that shorter stroke. I mean, for me
as a rookie ball manager, I wouldn't do that. I
wouldn't want to do that because I'm afraid that you're
going to get a long term negative, negative benefit, if
that's parper way of saying it. So those are the
things that I'm really really aware of, and I was

(28:50):
taught by some really good coaches early on, and things
that I've adhered too. Be careful when you're starting to
change ARMStrokes, be very very careful, especially if a kid's
been throwing one way for a long period of time.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
Joe, I'm going to actually I want to tell your
listeners and stuff. You know this the mindset in a
major league baseball organization. It's a little different than what
you just said. For sure, the major league pitchers, the guy,
the thirteen guys on the major league team, the teams
essentially don't want to mess around the pitcheon. Coach doesn't
want to mess around. I don't want to get fired
when this guy gets hurt. So the minor league is

(29:25):
more of a of a playground for the teams and
probably in your experience as well, the minor league there's
a minor league pitcher who probably might not be major
league quality unless we make some changes. So there's more
of a willingness at the minor league level of the coaches,
the team, and the players to make change, whereas once
they make it to the major leagues they're more locked in.

(29:45):
Would you agree with that.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, The changes a lot of times on a minor
league level would be to add another pitch. It might
be like for some guy the velocity wasn't quite there
and he wasn't missing enough bats. Just change his arm stroke,
like maybe an underward pitcher as an example. It was
rare that you would get a guy that threw more
conventional and if you just left him alone and just
gave him a couple thoughts that it's going to turn
around completely. And we never saw that kind of advance

(30:09):
in velocity over a period of time. Like if a
guy was just a soso a ball or double a
pitcher and all of a sudden he gave him something
to think about, he's throwing five six seven miles an
hour harder. That was rare, if ever, that that did happen.
The thing that we did like to do was the
cherry picking a catcher with a good arm all of
a sudden, you, Troy Percival, you put him on the mound.

(30:30):
Trevor Huffin was a short stop at your University of Arizona.
Say how smart I was as a scout. I wanted
to put him. I said, this guy's going to make
a great catcher someday because he couldn't hit that well.
And of course he becomes the best closer ever, one
of the best. So the cherry picking looking for good arms.
I think that was that's really productive on the minor
league levels, and I was always interested in that.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
Outfielders.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
There was the kid a couple of years ago may
Hey came from the outfield and had a over the
top armstroke. And that's the other thing, like armstroke, Like
over the top.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
I love over the top.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
If you throw over top cutter elevated cut her in
that's what I kind of loved. I mean, I could
start breaking it down for the things that I like,
and that's what we want to talk about. But yes,
the minor leagues is more of a experimental place, and
you're right. I mean, if a kid's not doing well,
he'll do anything to stay there and maybe advanced with
the big leagues. But my experience was most of the time,

(31:19):
you're going to.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
Get the one rare one.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
You're right, you're going to get a rare guy now,
and then for the most part, it just didn't work.
If it didn't work over a period of time, it's
just not going to work.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Glen. One more issue I want to ask you about,
because as I mentioned, things have happened really quickly. The
changes in the game, I believe with the proliferation of
the pitching laboratories, if you will, both on the major
league level and the amateur market have really exploded, I
want to say, in the last five years, and we're
seeing the changes in the major leagues. We talked a
lot about velocity. Almost counterintuitively, the number of fastballs throwing

(31:51):
to the major leagues actually is going down. For the
first time in the history of baseball. Fastballs are now
a minority of the total pitches that are thrown. It
is not the primary pitch. And especially in the last
couple couple of years, we're seeing teams go to more
and more spin. Why because there's the swing of miss
Joe was talking about. An average slider, for instance, is

(32:12):
harder to hit than an elite fastball. So they're chasing
these numbers. And part of chasing those numbers is getting
on the iPads and looking at the pitch shapes, the paths,
and the spin and beginning to tailor the shapes and
spins of those pitches to make those pitches more unhittable.
And by doing so, and this is my theory, Glenn,

(32:32):
I want to ask you about I think what we're
doing is we're finishing pitches harder the grips, the way
the ball is spinning out of the hand. If you're
trying for more spin, if you're trying for more break,
there's more effort associated from the wrist on down to
finish those pitches. And we're seeing now, you know, injuries
we didn't hear about very much before. The flexs are

(32:54):
tender muscle, or the flex are tended in the forearm.
What is going on and how do you equate some
of these injuries? Now with the increase in space, I.

Speaker 4 (33:04):
Want to talk a little about velocity and then spin.
I want to say that the velocity, the chasing velocity,
and the load on the elbow velocites not just fastballs
only the guys are throwing sliders and current boles at
higher speeds, sweepers at higher speeds. The research has shown
that the higher the speed of breaking pitches, the more
stressful they are, so velocity is not just a fastball

(33:25):
issues all pitch issue now as far as the spin
goes and spin rate, biomechanics research has shown in general
that fastballs and breaking pitches actually produce about the same
amount of stress on an elbow. Change ups in the
biomechanics lab produce less stress on the elbow. But whether
you throw a max effort current bowl or fastball or sweeper,

(33:48):
these things seem to be the same effort as the fastball.
So really Tom just adding up all the max effort
pitches seems to be the problem. The issue about whether
the gripping it harder to get more spin is causing
more stress or risk on the elbow is unknown. I've
had a lot of conversations with doctor Andrews, doctor Meister

(34:12):
and some others, and we're trying to figure this out.
We don't have the answers that data. One possibility is
that the extra grip actually does not put more load
on the under kloinal ligran. The extra grip actually protects
the ligament because your flexer pronator mass, your four muscles
actually go right where the UCL is, and if you're

(34:35):
using your muscles, it actually lessens the load on the UCL. However,
if you're gripping everything so hard, maybe later in the
game your muscles have fatigued and now the UCL is exposed.
The other possibility doctor Meister's talking with me, and the
other possibility is that when you do grip, the muscle
is not protecting the UCL, it's actually essentially yanking on

(34:58):
the UCL and causing a little more risk of injury.
So the jury is out scientifically about whether more grip
to get more spin is a protective or if it's dangerous.
Jury's out.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Still one quick comment there, Tommy, just part of the
breaking ball being more effective in the utilization of that
more that's also a direct result of greater velocity because
hitters have to get ready sooner because they know what
a velocity number might be. They know their little internal
clock with ninety five, ninety six to ninety seven feels
like so poom poom poom. I got to get ready sooner,

(35:34):
and then all of a sudden, here comes the breaking
ball off of that. So in a way, by throwing harder,
that makes your breaking ball better, just from a mental perspective,
from the hitter's perspective.

Speaker 4 (35:43):
So you're saying, by throwing the fastball harder.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Yep, yeah, because then after that you got you got
to mentally get ready sooner. So and all of a sudden,
if you're thrown from the same slot and it's unrecognizable
and hitter has already gotten ready for the fastball because
he has to. I've always taught, you know, hit fastball first,
get you get your fastball hacked ready first. When you
do do that, then eventually you're gonna, I think, and
chase more breaking balls because of that. Or you could

(36:06):
go the other route, and I've seen guys do that,
like the based on what Tommy's talking about, the hitters.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
Going to go up there looking breaking ball, You're going
to look soft.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
And with that, you're seeing a lot of guys not
being able to hit a fastball being late because of that,
which is not really a bad tack anymore, because they
know they're going to see the breaking ball. And after all,
I still believe the breaking ball strikes a lot easier
to hit than the fastball strike.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, just take a look at what the Boston Red
Sox are doing this year. They brought in Andrew Bailey
as they're pitching coach, Craig Breslow as their general manager.
The Boston Red Sox are throwing fewer fastballs than any
team in baseball. They are in the twenty percent throwing fastballs,
between twenty five and twenty nine percent fastballs this year.
That is unheard of, certainly even as recently as five

(36:48):
years ago. So Glenn You've been obviously very very helpful
to explaining to us what's been going on. I call
this an epidemic. I think you would agree we're heading
to something to me that is not sustainable. But I
want to end here with you on reasons to be optimistic,
because I think we all agree that everyone in the
game should be concerned, teams, coaches, players especially, So when

(37:12):
there is universal concern, you would think there is universal
agreement to do something about it. I know you're part
of a widespread study by Major League Baseball taking in
all kinds of opinions, doctors, trainers, physicians, coaches, you name it,
by mechanical experts. What do you see on the horizon,
either short term or long term that can at least

(37:36):
put the brakes on this epidemic.

Speaker 4 (37:38):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up because I want
to end on a happy note, not just all a
doom and gloom. But we've been down this road before.
Ten years ago we had this conversation. There was a
rash of injuries in twenty fourteen or so in Major
League Baseball partnered with USA Baseball and we made the
pitch Smart program. We figured out at that time ten
years ago, the biggest issue were amateur pitchers pitching too

(38:01):
much year round, and it didn't solve the pitching injuries,
but it slowed down the rise of pitching injuries. It
did work. And then you know, as we all know,
a couple of years ago, major League Baseball saw the
entertainment value of the game needed to be better, and
they did some studies on pitch timers obviously in the
news right now and other things, and I think we

(38:23):
all agree baseball is more entertaining than now. So I
think there is a mechanism. I think that model is
what we're going to follow, as you said, Tom myself
and Major League Baseball. There's a research committee going on,
exploratory committee trying to figure out what to do, because,
like with the entertainment situation a couple of years ago,

(38:44):
we want to identify what are the factors, really quantify
them scientifically, and then think about what we could propose
and implement as new rules, essentially at the major league level.
And I can't disclose some of the things that are
being brainstormed right now, but I am encouraged. I think
Major League Baseball is very interesting in reducing the number

(39:05):
of injuries from the Commissioner's Office and Major League Baseball,
and I think we are going to study and implement
some maybe some crazy ideas and try to get a
grip on this. So I am optimistic that on the
horizon we're going to implement some things to hopefully help
this well.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
I hope you're right. I hope we have reached a
tipping point here because I as I think, I think
this generation has failed this generation of pitchers. We've taught
the generation how to throw and to throw harder, but
we've not taught them how to pitch and most especially
to stay healthy. So hopefully there are some answers on
the horizon. It's going to take people like you, Glenn,

(39:44):
and all the experts to get their heads together as
a collective effort, and hopefully it's something that the players
and Major League Baseball get together on because it's it's
pitcher's health. It's just paramount to the really the history
of the game. When you think about it, Joe, you
know this when you're growing up or you're a fan now,
the first thing you ask when you think about going
to a game is who's the starting pitchers? Right? We

(40:06):
need those starting pitchers to be stars again, and you
can't do that when you're on the il with a
blown out UCLA.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
Keep in mind the Marquee matchup as you guys are
putting this together, the Marquee matchup, you always check the
probables every day. Buddy Black and I would always tease
each other about that when we coach with the Angels. Oh,
there's a Marquee matchup today. And within that Marquee matchup,
I mean, I think at some point, the third time
through the batting order, nonsense has got to go away.

(40:34):
I really believe that you have to. And part of
that is a teacher got to pitch and not just throw.
He's gonna run out of gas, very limited things that
he can do, And primarily I think it's just gonna fatigue.
The fatigue things going to get them latter part of
the game if they don't have something else to go
to the third time through the batting order. I'd love
to see that. With that, you're going to have a
better bullpens. Bullpens that aren't distressed as much right down

(40:55):
the line. So I'm all about the Marquee matchup. I'm
all about bringing starting pitching back. Really as a manager,
when you have that. I was thinking about this the
other day, that throw two hundred innings when I was
with the Rays and that was two thousand, what six
through fourteen? Every year I would annually talk to my
starting pitchers, James Shields, David Price, Alex Cobb, some pretty

(41:18):
good group of guys, Scotty Kasmer.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
Our goal is two hundred innings a piece. I want.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
I wanted a thousand innings out of my starting pitchers,
not just five. It might be six, it might be seven.
I don't think it's unreasonable. I mean, everybody thinks that's unreasonable.
And these guys pitch for a long time. Those are
the kind of thoughts I'd like to see explored and
build a longevity there because part of the answer, a solution,
I think, is within that. If you're if I'm gonna
challenge you to pitch two hundred innings this year, I
gotta make all my starts. I got to pitch into

(41:44):
that sixth inning often or better. And how do I
do that? And what's the number of pitches you're gonna
permit me to throw? Like with Shields, when James got
to one oh eight for the first time successfully and
I let him go beyond that. After that, he took off.
He absolutely took off. We can't attempt to clone everybody.
We can't try to make everybody the same, Kat and
I think that's part of the issue the way we

(42:06):
deal with society in general. We all want everybody to
be the same. Don't overlook the individuality of each guy
and how they throw and how long they've been thrown
that way.

Speaker 3 (42:15):
I think that's important.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
And I also think it's important to permit them to
be athletes and permit them to be great and not
get in their way.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
I think that's all part of the equation.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Well, Glenn, you're always welcome to come back on the
Book of Joe. You're a great guest because you bring
some common sense approach, you bring the data, you bring
the evidence, and hopefully next time we have you on
you're bringing some solutions as.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
Well, I hope. So.

Speaker 4 (42:38):
I always enjoy talking with you guys as well.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
Thanks Glenn, I appreciate it, buddy.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Thanks that was Glenn Flaiesig, biomechanics research director at ASMI.
Thanks so much for Glenn for joining us. And when
we get back, we will wrap up this edition of
the Book of Joe, Welcome back to the Book of

(43:05):
Joe and Joe Madden. I always love talking to Glenn Fleisig.
He knows exactly what he's talking about. There's not, you know,
any voodoo science here. This guy's dedicated his life essentially
to dedicate to studying biomechanics and baseball players, and he
has seen the change. And I am not afraid to
call out major league teams, Joe, because I think what

(43:27):
they're doing is they're giving lip service to play our health.
And I say that because they talk now about, oh,
you know, we're as you said, we're not pitching guys
the third time around the lineup. We're always pitching them
with an extra day of rest. The pitch count has
declined severely in the last ten years. Pitchers are pitching
less than they ever have before. But that's not the problem.

(43:51):
The real problem is the velocity. So I don't care
if they're having these guys you know, out of the
game in the fifth inning with eighty five pitches pitching
on the fifth day. That does not address the issue,
which is guy g are throwing too hard for their
own good. And until Major League Baseball teams actually acknowledge
that and stop putting the carrot out there of ultra velocity.

(44:14):
We're going to see the best young pitchers in this
game continue to break down. We are not going to
see ten or fifteen year starting pitchers who become Hall
of Famers because their UCLs just cannot handle the torque
they are putting on.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
Yeah, listen, hundred percent agree as you're saying that.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
I'm thinking.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
And an example again is my example is James Shields,
who turned out to be really good major league pitcher,
Shieldsy when I had him, when he was really good.
If he came out in that first inn he's thrown
like ninety three, ninety four plus, I would get really
nervous concern because he's trying to overthrow the ball. It's
not going to have the same movement. He just wasn't
gonna have the same result. I didn't, thinking sure enough

(44:56):
he would not. The first inning was a big thing
for me with him. So we'd get him back down
ninety one, ninety two, sometimes ninety three, throwing that devastating
changeup pitching, and all of a sudden he's there in
the seventh or the eighth any often Jeff demon big
six ' nine right hander this guy. Had he stayed healthy,
you'd have heard from him for a long time also,
and he would throw eighty nine to.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
Ninety one ninety two.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
When he got higher than that, i'd get concerned all
of a sudden the ball get rattled around. Plus when
he did that, I know he had a better chance
of being there late in the game. He was one
of those guys who would go through like nine, ten,
twelve outs in.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
A row with nobody reaching the first base.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
So yeah, I think we're only it's only being emphasized
because according to the group in charge right now, it's
the only way to get people out, which I totally
disagree with. And like you're saying, if you want longevity
within your group, if you want to starting pitches that
you like and have them for a long period of time,
they're gonna have to take a different approach. And it's
going to start in the minor leagues. And how do
you raise them in the minor leagues and what you

(45:53):
ask them to do there so by the time they
get to you in the major leagues they know how
to do this.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
It matters. All this stuff matters.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
If you want a base stealer and the big leagues.
Have them steal bases in the minor league. As an example,
if you want to got to play multiple positions in
the major leagues, try him out in the minor leagues.
Haven't played multiple positions there before he gets there.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
We've only got to become a switch hitter. Of course,
you're going to do that in the minor league.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
Whatever you want done, whatever you think is going to
permit your team to be successful on the major league level,
have him do it in the minor leagues. Person you
have a much better chance of that infiltrating your team
and your culture for a long period of time.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
And you know what, I don't need to see any
more social media posts of these sixteen seventeen year old
kids crow hopping and throwing plyaballs one hundred and fifteen
miles an hour into a net and some facility. I
don't need to see that anymore. You know why, because
you're putting yourself directly in harm's way. There's no question
about it. If I were a team Joe, I've got

(46:49):
a kid out there on the market on draft day
who's a high school senior throwing the upper nineties, I
would not touch him. Based on the experience. Everything I've seen,
there is no way the high velocity throwers, it said
venteen and eighteen are going to have sustainable big league careers.
And if I do have a young pitcher like a

(47:10):
Paul Skeene's the prospect out of LSU with the Pittsburgh Pirates,
I'd get him to the big leagues right now. There's
no reason for him to be, you know, punching people
out in the minor leagues right now, because it's just
not sustainable to be throwing that hard. I want him
pitching in the big leagues. I know that sounds almost cruel,
but the clock does tick on these young pitchers and
when they're throwing in the upper nineties.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Agreed again, I mean that was actually that was actually
a stuff that we had on Percy. When Percy was
coming up. It was Doc Yocum at that time said hey,
take him up there, pitch him. He's not going to
last very long. He said the same thing about Roberto Hernandez.
Roberto had a bad elbow too, but eventually both of
these guys had long and really good careers.

Speaker 3 (47:48):
I can't tell exactly why. I do believe being watched
over by Marcel Et cetera.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
And some really, I really believe that, I do believe
that these guys can pick up flows quicker than anything.
They know when to throttle back, they know when they
may advise to maybe.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
A little bit. But there's this.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
It's a good sports car with a six speed, right,
you know when to shift down, shift, you know in
the shift into the higher gear. You have to know
how to do again, pitch within a range. You have
to be able to know how to do that. And again,
you're right, that's not being that's not being talked spoken
about enough or at all, And that what's the answer.
That's the answer for me to get more experienced pitching coaches.

(48:26):
And I'm not slamming the guys that are out there,
it's not even a little bit. But for the most part,
what they know is what they've been told to know
and haven't had the experience to go through these things
for several years, many years, having run into a variety
of different pitches, variety of different coaches, mentors that will
give them different thoughts, information, wisdom, whatever you want to
call it, and in order or to enable them to

(48:47):
utilize it in a moment with a certain picture, whether
it's in a workout in spring training, or in a
game situation and the seventh inning, and the major league
level when it gets hot.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
I'm a big believer in that. I'll never change my
stance on that one. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
The bottom line here, Joe, is the evidence is right
in front of us. Velocity is increasing risk. There's no
question about it. It's like, you know, to use your
car engine analogy. The engine's just too big for the chassis.
It's just too big. It's going to break down. Back
in the day, I'm only going back ten or fifteen
years ago, the two biggest red flags for pitcher injuries

(49:21):
were poor mechanics and overuse. Well, poor mechanics have been
mitigated to a greater degree because we've done so well
in these pitching labs and hooking people up to you know,
three D video systems. You can find flaws and deliveries
and you can't fix them. As far as overuse goes,
it never happens anymore. There's not a single picture that
gets overused these days, not my book. No one's throwing

(49:43):
one hundred and twenty pitches anymore. No one's pitching three
times around a lineup. No one starting pitcher is losing
a game in the seventh or eighth inning. It just
doesn't happen. So what has happened now is that velocity
has become the single biggest risk for a starting pitcher.
It has eclipsed both the overuse and poor mechanics as

(50:03):
the biggest red flag to an injury. So if you've
got a pitcher throwing up her nineties, he's literally a
breakdown waiting to happen. How does that change? I don't know, Joe.
It's a big philosophical change. Because the science isn't changing.
We are developing throwers like we never have before, and
that's going to continue to happen. So the only thing
that can change is behavioral. It has to be some
human element where teams and coaches and the industry decides,

(50:26):
you know what, you don't need to succeed at ninety nine.
You can pitch at ninety five and still get people out.
That's a hard change to happen. It's going to be
a slow turn that's turning around an ocean liner. I
don't know how it happens, but we do need to
get there.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
That's going to be the outlier or outliers.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
I mean, the way that this whole thing works and
everything that we do. Everybody wants to be the same.
Everybody wants to copycat whoever they perceive to be successful.
And that's what's going on now. It's going to continue
to go on until somebody or a group of somebody's
gets not even gets the other separately decides listen, Okay,
that's all good, well and good, but we're going to
do it this way, our way. We're going to incorporate that.

(51:04):
Plus we're going to incorporate this our methods in order
to build what we perceive or how to how we
perceive to be able to build the kind of pitching,
sustainable pitching that's not going to get injured so readily
lasted period of time, have them through all their free
agency productively within our major league team, getting us wins,
getting us saves, but they're going to be healthy the

(51:26):
most of the time because all this other scientific evidence
out there, and I keep hearing about it continues to
break down. So I think the answer lies, like typically
always somewhere in between, more of a balance needs to
be achieved, But it's going to be the group that's
able and willing to be the outlier to go away
from the maddening crowd and do things more or less

(51:47):
the way they see fit.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
One last thing, Joe, for me. For that to happen,
this has to be a joint effort. This has to
be done collectively with the players and MLB. And that
was a terrible sign over the weekend when Tony Clark
in the Union put out their statement. MLB came back
with their state this is not the time to be
really relitigating the CBA. This is the time for both

(52:09):
sides to get together and talk about the most important
issue in baseball, and that's player health. There's nothing more important.
And you better do it collectively.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
Yeah, I mean collectively when it comes to medicine. But
the idea or the thought that all of a sudden,
the clock has something to do with injuries, to me,
I just I didn't even I didn't even know that.
To you said that, I missed that. I heard something
had been had been said, but I'd missed.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
That part of it. I don't agree with that at all.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
When I hear that, I'm I'm hearing that several veteran pictures. Primarily,
it's not the younger guys are not going to say
any of that. It's a primarily a veteran dialogue that's
going to get to a narrative that's going to get together,
get back to Tony, and then it's going to be
presented in that manner. So that's that's what I think
happened for me. It's be more or less the more
veteran guys that got injured and it's going to come back.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Why did I get injured?

Speaker 2 (52:55):
You always have to always have to find a reason why.
It just can't be because I broke down, because I
threw one hundred miles an hour.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
It's got to be a reason.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
Thus, I think it's an easy target to say that
the pitch clock had something to.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
Do with it.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Yeah, and just be prepared. There will be more injuries.
We know that. I will say this time of year
is especially a dangerous time for pictures as they ramp
up for a new season. Sometimes they're recovering from some
slight ailment in the off season. Getting back to game
speed will expose anything that's wrong with the elbow. So

(53:28):
it's not unusual to see a lot of these injuries
early in the season. The next time you start seeing
a plethora of these injuries is probably around August and
September when it starts, guys start to get fatigued. But hopefully,
you know, the pace of these injuries just really slows
down because it is it is just not good for
the game. It's really dispiriting to see some of the
best pictures go down, and hopefully there is there's a

(53:50):
solution at some point in the meantime. Mister Madden, I
don't know how you're going to put a cap on
this one. You always wind up with a way to
to to end our podcast with just the right tone.
So I'm not sure you got this time, but I
count on you to come through. Once again.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
I fight for the individual all the time.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
I do, and I think, again, this is a we
always talk about these socialized methods of finding a solution
where everybody's got to get together. Back in the day,
it was pretty much organizationally. You would get together and
you would want to be the first ones to figure
out how to keep our pictures healthy. Where again, it's
going to be more of a collective route. But that's

(54:30):
just where we're at. So I was thinking about this
before because I thought you might be going in this direction.
The word, the term progressive progressive automatically. I think the
way it's used today, people assume that it's something with
a positive result to it, a positive ending to it,
but the result doesn't automatically have.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
To be good or productive.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
Things may progress down a negative path. I think today
the world has uncovered or emphasized a new meaning to
the term progressive, and that being negative momentum. Sometimes you
garner negative momentum and not just positive moment and I
think progressive sometimes is always attached or those that label
themselves are progressive. It's automatically assume that they're there for everybody,

(55:12):
the common good for everybody else where.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
Sometimes it's not.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
Sometimes they're taking this down the negative path and are
creating negative momentum, and that has to be stopped. Also,
so there's that group who always believe that they're right,
the social engineers, the administrative state that isn't always right,
quite frankly, and that's where I have a lot of
issues or problems sometimes because I don't believe everything I

(55:35):
hear and don't believe everything I read. I think things
are spun a lot of times. And that's my Jack
Ryan approach to answering questions The protagonists from the Tom
Clancy novels where no, mister President, he wasn't just a
friend of yours, he was your best friend. Just to
run towards the issue and not tap dance around it.
So as they're trying to conclude all this regarding the

(55:58):
different thoughts or ideas methods being incorporated to help permit
our pictures to stay on the field, well please be
open about it. Just say it straight up. Don't tap
dance around it. Don't try to paint things, don't try
to spend things, don't try to protect anybody. Just say
what you're doing. Just tell us what we're doing and
how we're doing it, and then I think we all
can get on board and help be part of the solution.

(56:19):
But when you're just when there's some negative momentum that
you just don't because you've created it, you can't admit
to and you can't get away from it, that's not
so good. So progressive is a nice word, but understand
it's not always about a positive change. Sometimes it can't
create negative momentum. That's my quote. I guess I didn't
really get anybody specifically today.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
No, I like that, and I can always count on
you to give a perspective that is rich in the humanities,
very well balanced. Then you just did it again, and
I think that's what we're talking about here, Joe, is
that the science of pitching has evolved and has to
use your word pressed very well, but the art of
pitching is not and we need a better balance. One
hundred percent brother, enjoying it, Joe. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Thanks Tom, You be well.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
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