May 20, 2025 • 49 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci start with changes in Baltimore as the Orioles fire Brandon Hyde. What can you do when a bad team isn't getting better? Joe walks through the steps of changing a manager. Jose Alvarado is suspended which leaves the Phillies looking for bullpen help. Do the Rangers have the next two-way player in MLB and could it become a growing trend in baseball? Plus, did Joe lose any pull he had at the Vatican?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey thereon, Welcome back to the latest episode of the
Book of Joe with Tom Berducci.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
That's me and Joe Madden. That's you, Joe. How you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I am doing well, Tommy.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
It's amazing that we're still it seems like a regular
episode now here talking about managers getting fired Joe. Right
this time it's Brandon Hyde of the Baltimore Orioles. I
know Hyder was on your staff in Chicago. You've known
them for a long time. Give me your initial reaction
when you heard the Orioles were making a change.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Well, obviously their record's not good. And then you're always
at the mercy of decision makers trying to decide why
is the record not good? And you don't have to
look very far under the hood to realize why they
weren't doing so well and it had nothing to do
with Hyder. I was really disappointed. Again, it's just the
the way the world works. Sometimes in our industry, there
(01:07):
are some gms or presidents that get it that, really,
I think, evaluate the situation better and then really try
to address the absolute reason why we're having a hard
time as opposed to those that just want to possibly,
you know, I don't want to say safe face, but
maybe safe face and offer up the sacrificial land. Because
Hyder is that good. Did the guy's manager of the
(01:28):
year two years ago? They won ninety some games. Last year,
of course wasn't everything you're expecting, but this is a
young team that still is sending These guys are still learning.
They caught the baseball world by storm a couple of
years ago, and then all of a sudden a reality
sits in and the league adjust to them. Now they
have to adjust back to the league. So I was
really disappointed. Quite frankly, I've been texting with Hyder. I
(01:51):
didn't like it. I don't think it makes any sense.
I know the record is not good, but it's not
his fault.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
One hundred percent agree.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I mean, when you think about it, Joe, this guy
went to back to back postseasons with a team that
he guided through a huge rebuilding program.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
That's right here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We are a quarter of the way through the next season,
after back to back postseasons, and they say there's the
door leave. It's obviously not a manager's problem. It's a
roster construction problem. Yeah, there's some injuries here, but my
goodness that you know every team.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
You know this, Joe, every team has injuries.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
It's a matter of how much depth do you have
to withstand those injuries.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And the Orioles to me, were never a playoff team
this year.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I'd never liked the roster, going back to the trade
deadline last year, Halloy Jmenez, Trevor Rodgers in this passed
off season.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
You know, Corbyn Burns leaves. I get it. Maybe you
couldn't contend any for.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
A guy who wants to go back home to Arizona,
but he replaced them with Charlie Morton forty one years old.
As far as your offense goes, you lose Anthony Santander
and you pick up Tyler O'Neill, Gary Sanchez.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I mean, it's just you look at this team, Joe.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
To me, when this season started, I did not like
the Baltimore Orioles, and they're playing worse than I thought
they were. Now I understand a lot of this is
face saving. You pretty much hinted at this, Joe, right,
you need escapegoate here. What happened to me is obviously
they're struggling, and then they had that lost Friday night,
which is about as bat of a loss as you can.
(03:21):
It's sort of the equivalent to the Rockies, and that
twenty one nothing lost to the Padres. They lost in
a way that nobody's ever lost a game before. They
put twenty runners on base, they stranded fifteen, they struck
out fifteen times, and they scored only three runs. It
was an abomination. They swung a miss thirty two times,
(03:42):
and they lost the game when the closer Felix Bautista,
who by the way, did not get a swing a
miss and his velocity was down across the board. But anyway,
he's covering first base on a ground ball to the
right side with a runner on second base, bang bank
play at first.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
The runner is safe. He is not alert to the
trail runner.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
And that's how the Washington Nationals scored the winning run
with Joe.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You've seen it a million times.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
How many times in spring training the guys do this
ad nauseum cover first, check the trail runner.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
He didn't do that, let his guard down. So this
lack of alertness.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
You had Atlee Rushman behind the plate on a pass ball,
jogging after the ball. So the runner who was stealing
at first base goes all the way to third. You
had Jackson Holliday, who's covering on that play, who vacated
the bag instead of deking the runner to make sure
there was a throw to force a slide, vacated the bag.
The runners heads up now that there is no play,
and that's why he went to third. So that's the
(04:38):
kind of ugly loss. And listen, it's a super small
sample size. It's one loss, I get it. But for
if the ownership is on the fence, that's kind of
a last straw kind of game.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, and again I'm still not blaming him. I mean,
obviously there's a lethargy among the group based on their record,
and they got to shake and they got to fight
through it, no question. But even going back beyond what
you're saying there, just I was reading some stuff. I
think they sounded like eight guys last year something that
that effect in their accumulative war if you're into that stuff,
is less than one. It's a point in negative point eight.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So yeah, and they did. You're right, they did boost
their payroll. I think they had the highest percentage boosting
their payroll. But how did you spend that money that's
not on the manager.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Well, that's it exactly. That's my point. I mean, you
start looking at this is this is why. And I'm
already going into the end because I already had my
quote of the day based on all this. But this
is this is Brian Cashman. This, this is like why
I love Cash. The Yankees stunk a couple of years ago.
Cash did not panic. He did not start slicing everybody off.
(05:39):
He went and he was accountable to the whole thing,
got together with the whole group. We got to get
better at this. Where are we lacking right here? And
he still has the same group there that was there
a couple of years ago, and they're doing pretty good
right now. There are times when leadership has to suck
it up and admit that they're the problem and not
not the the In this situation, field staff compared to
(06:00):
a front office. To me, the analytical department is culpable
as much as anything. If you're Gonn bringing O'Neil and all
these other guys, Sanchez to replace the people that had
left the stand there, et cetera, bad guess. And then
of course Charlie Warreon, he's been so good for a while,
but my god, forty one years old, what do you expect.
There's such a lot of bad assumptions on their part, right,
(06:20):
And I know these are all analytical decisions. There's no question.
When you're starting to pick up guys like O'Neil, et cetera,
you start looking for this platoon advantage stuff, and this
is something that the analytical department is going to jump
into and attempt to be able to put their stamp
of approval on this and eventually believe it's going to
work out. And then it doesn't, that's okay. Well we
all screw up on a decision, but that's okay. But
(06:42):
then don't start blaming somebody else. That's where I have
an issue with this whole thing. It's something that permeates
the entire industry, and that's where I think we need
to get better when it comes down to deciphering what
has gone wrong here, Let's do a better job of that.
And you stop putting out your manager, your hitting coach,
your pitching coaches, et cetera. Putting them out there. There's
(07:04):
a reason why. It's not the reason why. It's the
acquisitional process that's flawed. That's what it comes down to
all the analytical departments. They have their own little cocktail
that they derived their decision making from. Put some better
ingredients in your cocktail and you might get a better results.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, Tyler O'Neill, to me, he's a platoon player. You know,
he doesn't hit right hand pitching. He's had one season,
he's turning thirty years old. He's had one season where
he's had five hundred played appearances. He doesn't stay healthy.
He's not an everyday player. I'm sorry that that was
a mistake. They just looked at numbers last year and
thought they needed help against left handed pitching, and that's
(07:38):
why they signed Sanchez and O'Neill, and both them been
hurt and ineffective. There's a lot to be concerned about
with this team. Let me start with Adlie Rushman. That
guy's gone backward. And let's not forget this ownership group,
this front office. Their first draft, they had Bobby Witt
Junior and Adlie Rushman and they took a catcher one
to one. I have a five tools shortstop.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Now. Adlie, you know, to his credit.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
To the big leagues and looked like a polished player,
a leader, a catcher behind the plate switch hitter great,
but historically you don't draft catchers that high, and I
don't know what's happened to him.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
In his last calendar year, he's hitting two twenty with
a three to zero five on base percentage. His bad
at slow, he's a ground ball machine. Last year, first
time probably failed in his life at anything, had a
really high chase rate. This year he's been great as
far as getting back to plate discipline. He's just not
hitting the ball hard. It's that simple, and I'd be
(08:36):
concerned about that if I'm the Orioles that this has
gone on now for a little more than a year
and he's supposed to be one of your franchise core guys.
So I look at Rushman, I look at Heston Kirstad,
who's getting some run and really not doing much with it.
He's a lot of swing and missing in this game.
I don't like him defensively as well. Maybe the core
isn't what we thought it was with this Baltimore Orioles team.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
That's what I'm talking about. You take a deep, deep
dive like what they're they're analyzing. What their consuer ing
here is that the staff there has not done a
good enough job to make these guys better. Rushman like
hit the ground running, like you said a couple of
years ago. So he's regressed. Why I want to know why?
If the power you explained to one part about it
where he started to chase, and now he's not chasing.
That's good that happens, But why is the power so
(09:20):
deficient all of a sudden. There's got to be reasons why,
But that that needs to be I don't know. That's
gonna They're gonna look for the analytical reasons. They're going
to look at all the data regarding that exit velocities,
what maybe is a bat path, all those different kind
of things. But what's he thinking? Has he gotten weaker?
Is it all this catch and he already taken some toll?
(09:41):
Maybe the body's not good enough. I don't know, but
that's that's a bad process as far as I'm concerned.
The other kid cures stat I haven't seen enough of him,
but I know they had a lot of high hopes there.
Now the shortstop Henderson, here's the guy. A couple years
ago we were arguing who was better him or Bobby
Wood Jr. And I think is still a legitimate argument.
I still I'm a wit guy. But there's there's a
(10:02):
bunch of guys there within this team that are underperforming. Why.
I don't know why. I don't watch them often enough.
But again, like you said, maybe it was an over
evaluation at some point, and that happens. That happens when
a team bust on the scene earlier, a couple of
young guys. It hit the ground run and all of
a sudden, the assumption is that they're going to be
like that for ten the next ten years. Not always true.
(10:25):
Your mind gets in a way, your body breaks down somewhere.
Maybe this whatever it is within his body is not
feeling quite as good as it did when he first
arrived here. There's a lot of underlying reasons why, but
the overarching reason is not because the manager is not
good at what he does anymore. That's the part that
really bums me out. A lot of these guys feel
like they're forced to make a change just for the
(10:47):
sake of change. And listen, there's nothing wrong with that
if you've really identified that as the problem. But please
take the time to identify the real problem. That's why
I've always had issues like I've had press conferences where
teams start. MY team might be struggling and all of
a sudden you get questions as to why, and my
answer would almost always be listening, let me, let's let's
(11:08):
really look and find out what the real reason is
behind is and not just the superficial stuff that everybody
could jump on and you provide a sacrificial lamp. I
could go on and on about this. I've been in
situations like this, so I do not believe Hyder was
the issue. I believe Hider's a very good manager. I
know he's strong in the clubhouse, he knows what he believes,
he's got a sharp baseball mind. I know that was
(11:29):
not the issue. So yeah, I'm banging on him a
little bit because I don't like it. I really thought
they're going to be in a hunt this year, and
for whatever reason, something is disconnected there and I'm telling
you what, it's not in the clubhouse.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, I mean you have to start with the pitching, though, Joe.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I mean, only the Rockies have a higher era than
the Baltimore Orioles. And as I said, you know, I'll
listen to Grayson Rodrigue is not there. Andrew Kittridge not there.
But again, every team has injuries. What kind of depth
do you have to survive? Now, this group in Baltimore
front office, they came from Houston. They supposedly cracked the
code on how to develop young pitchers and get swings,
(12:03):
and I haven't seen that in Baltimore. Remember this year
they brought the fence in the wall in left field,
which they probably should have. They over corrected and made
it way too high and deep, and they brought it
in and they don't have the kind of pitching staff
now to make that seem like it was a good decision.
So to me, I look at the pure stuff on
(12:24):
this staff, Joe, and it's not very good. You know,
they signed Kyle Gibson late. Now he's gone. He had
four of the most awful starts you would ever just imagine.
Just not a major league pitcher. I hate to say
that because Kyle's had a great career. He's a great guy.
But stuff wise, again, I don't know what you're looking
at to sign these guys. Charlie Morton fifteen million dollars. Well,
(12:45):
the Mets go out and get a Griffin Canning to
solve their issues. I mean, these things go on and on.
But I looked at this staff when the season started
before the injuries and said, no, this is not good enough.
And you're right, that's not on the manager.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
He did not assemble the staff. Baseball managers have very
little input regarding their rosters anymore. They don't, But there
was a time and I actually thought they staffed too
much power. But I was coming up in the eighties
early nineties, my sit in on meetings, and what happened
at that time was managers and coaches would be influenced
based on how a player played against their team. Only
(13:20):
we didn't get to see the magnitude of games that
everybody's able to see now or scout now via data, video, whatever.
That was not part of the landscape at that time.
You scouted based on what you saw against you how
many of her times that year. So I always thought
that was a bad method for acquisition when the manager
and the staff had way too much input in that
(13:41):
because they were only based on what they saw in
spring training. Maybe a kid was doing well then, but
he's not doing well now. Or the teams that were
playing against they would scout them obviously, and a guy
would have a hot series against them, all of a
sudden they like them. It's not like the NFL. The NFL,
I believe the NFL coaches and staff have a greater
input into this decision making process because the way the
(14:02):
timing works with the draft, and they can and they're
all they ever do is study film anyway, and that's
the primary way to do this. So NFL coaches can't
sit down. They could watch all this, they could interview
at the end of their season before the draft, and
so they could be more involved in this decision making process,
which I think is great. But on the baseball side,
it's impossible. It's impossible. I'm here to tell you the
(14:23):
way our season works, all the work you have to
do on a daily basis, the scouting of it. Here
comes the draft. You got your team to worry about it. Obviously,
there's no way a major league cut manager and staff
have the same kind of input I've had. Back with
the Rays, they gave me a video buster Posey versus
Timmy Beckham. That was the decision at that time. When
the race took Beckham, I I don't know with Posy
(14:45):
taking beforemer after him. I can't remember that specifically.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
The Rays passed on Posey. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
So that was that was That was a video being
passed around at that time. I don't even know how
much was based on the fact they didn't want to
pay whatever Posy might have wanted. That's another story. But yeah,
all this stuff to me is really difficult for me.
I can't concede. I can't concede on this one whatsoever
because I know so at the end of the day,
managers and coaches on the major league level will get
(15:11):
very little input in regards to who's on that team
and in today's world, who plays and how often. And
you know, you have discussions about a particular player, and
I know how I feel about this guy, and I
start my discussion and maybe I'm taking the negative or
the conside to this argument, where the front office staff
and the analytical department it's more pro of this particular
(15:32):
player by the end, and they want to know what
I think. But by the end of the discussion, regardless
of what I think, it's going to be, the conversation
is going to flow in that direction. I'm just telling
you it's absolute fact and truth. So for those of
you that are Hyder fans, just know that he's really
good at what he does. It was not properly done
right there, right now, and I think they're going to
suffer for it for a bit. Last point, who's going
(15:53):
to replace him? Right when you're gonna do something like this?
I mean, if I'm a GM and I think before
the season began or whatever, I have to always keep
it back in my mind. What if this goes wrong
or sideways all of a sudden, my guy isn't doing
what I thought he can do or what he was like,
who's going to be that next guy? And you always
(16:13):
need to know that. So who's going to replace him?
That's a really interesting question to me too.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
That's a great point, Joe. I've always said that when
a team makes a move, you better know that you
have somebody better on hand. I don't like the just
the knee jerk reaction. Well, let's get the manager, then
we'll figure out where we're going next. No, you better
have that in mind right now. You know, they named
the third base coach, Tony Mansilino as the manager. I'm
assuming it's interim. We'll see. You know, he did manage
(16:42):
in the minor leagues for four seasons. He ran the
games when Terry Francone and Cleveland was out during the
COVID year of twenty twenty. Of course, his father has
been a longtime baseball guy. I've been with the Atlanta
Braves most recently last six seven years in player development.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
So a good baseball guy.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
But I don't get the sense that you know this
is their long term answer and who it is I
don't know, but I know this the Baltimore Orioles.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Uh, they've earn't every.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Bit of this fifteen to thirty record, and they're not
making the playoffs. I'll tell you that right now. You're
just not this bad and all of a sudden turn
it around and they're really bad. I mentioned the pitching.
The batting average is the worst in the dh ERA
for any Baltimore team. They've won only four games this
year when the opponents scored first. I mean, that's unbelievable.
They're four and twenty one. I'm not talking about being
(17:29):
down five runs even at the one run on the
board by the other team. They don't come back. They're
oh and twenty five when they trail after six innings,
and going back to last April, if are down four,
they're oh and fifty six. This is the team over
the last year, last one hundred and sixty two games.
So this is not just a bad month seventy seven
(17:49):
and eighty five. So it just and we talked about
this before, Joe, this idea that you're going to build
a sustainable winner is nonsense. If you're a fan, don't
buy it from your team unless you're the Dodgers and
the Yankees.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
It ain't happening.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
To build a sustainable winner, you have to seize these windows.
And we thought the Orioles had a window that opened
in twenty three. Great team, and you know they progressed
a little bit last year, but they did make the postseason.
They did have a four second half. The window's gone
right now the Oriols right now to really reassess where
they are as an organization. So when you have a
(18:24):
core group and it looks like they're ready to win,
you need to pay that off the way the twenty
fifteen Royals did by going out and getting Ben's Oberst
and Johnny Quato. Don't talk to me like you're going
to contend every year for the next decade.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
It doesn't happen.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
In the game.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
You need to really go all in when you've got
a team that's ready to win because you can't keep
them together, and injuries happen, and sustainable winning just doesn't
happen unless you're in New York or LA.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
The misconception is that it's easy to win a major
League baseball game. We often used to laugh in a dugout,
it's really hard to win a major League baseball game.
I mean, I don't know what it looks like from
a distance, and some teams are obviously better than others.
But after you win a major League baseball game, it's like, Wow,
you just exhale, and it's such a wonderful feeling on
a nightly basis to win a major League baseball game.
(19:14):
There's so much going on. Both sides are talented. There's
a laser thin line between winning and losing, even among
the best of the worst. Of course, the best have
the guys that are obviously paid for better, longer lineage,
and probably make less mistakes. That's probably one of the
biggest things. Probably make a lot less mental mistakes. And
(19:34):
at the other end of it, you're going to see
a lot of young guys coming up, great bodies, athleticism,
et cetera. But don't really know how to play the game,
and there is something to be said about learning how
to win. What does that mean on a daily basis? Man,
it's kind of a competitive thing and you're not going
to be denied and you're not going to make the
To me, it's probably there's no way to prove this,
(19:54):
but it's about making fewer, way fewer mental mistakes than
the other teammates. And it really comes down to the
mental mistakes and a lot of games between winning and losing.
So I could go on and on about this, but
it is personal for me on this one. Emotionally, I
know how good Hider is. I know how good he is,
and to evaluate it this way, to me, was absolutely
wrong and I'm just not going to hold back on
(20:15):
this one.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Well, we will check in on how the Rockies and
Pirates are doing. The other two teams have changed managers,
will do that and we'll talk about perhaps the next show. Hey, Otani,
I can't believe I just said that, but we'll talk
about that right after this shortbreak.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
It was interesting, Joe that all three teams have fired managers,
and I always believe that for a team like Baltimore.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Once other teams have fired managers.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
It makes it easier for them to do it right. Yeah,
but in all three cases they just went internally with
replacements for veteran managers. Iraqis since they fired Buddy Black,
they're one and five the Pirates. I mean, they've been
on just an incredible streak now, twenty three straight games
where they have not scored more than four runs. So
(21:14):
Don Kelly might be a good baseball guy in time.
Nothing's changed there. That's the thing about these changes, Joe.
It used to be maybe you brought somebody in, you know,
Billy Martin and Jack McKeon type, who was really going
to change the culture and shake some things up. I
don't see that happening in all three places here, I
really don't.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
No, it's true. There's they they don't want these guys
to come in and do anything differently. They want these
guys to come in and listen. That's it. The manager
today's world, we've alluded to in the last segment and
not alluded to it. Set it straight up, has very
little influence, very little influence. It's the game has run
so much by what happens above them that when you
(21:54):
bring somebody in, they don't want they being organizations, they
don't want somebody to come in with a strong personality
like you're talking about guys that have made brought along
change in the past, because they don't want to give
him that kind of quote unquote power in order to
make the changes they're they're just they're not change agents
(22:14):
at all. They're just they're there because they're young, they're controllable,
or they've been around for a bit. And again still
what somewhat controllable are a lot of controllable because that's
how the game's run today. It's just just a matter
of fact. I'm not saying anything that I know a
lot of guys that coaches, players would ever listen to
our podcast, and they always come back and they appreciate
that we're saying these kinds of things. But it's true.
(22:35):
So they're not change agents. They're there to carry out
the wishes of the front office. Most of the time.
They're able to communicate well with the media, which is
also really important today's genre of professional sports. I get
all that. So if you're looking for this guy to
come in and quote unquote shake things up, he's not
permitted to Even if he's capable of doing that, he's
not going to be permitted to shake things up. It's
(22:57):
going to be still dictated from the top down.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, and I know, small sample size, but after the
Brandon Hyde firing, you know, I cover the game Saturday
against Washington. They came out and Kyle Gibson was just awful,
gave up six runs, but misjudge fly balls, poor defense,
missing cutoff men, lethargic at bats, and they get wiped out.
The next day again ninety four, he got swept at
home by the Washington Nationals. I didn't see any change
(23:22):
there in terms of energy or approach. So we'll see.
I don't think it's going to get much better for Baltimore.
I really don't. It's a tough division, maybe not as
tough as we thought, by the way, with the Yankees
the only team with the winning record, but fifteen to
thirty and heading the wrong direction, it's going to take
a while for this team to turn it around. Be
interesting to see what they do at the trade deadline, Joe.
(23:43):
They've had terrible trade deadlines, they've had bad off seasons,
a lot of pressure on them now to do something
with this team to get a new direction.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Well that as when you're not doing well, what they
know a lot of times we'll do is they'll step
byside and they will permit the manager more leeway in
regards to what he's doing because they don't perceive to
be in the running. They're not going to get as
involved with this whatever the decision is. On a daily basis,
the lineup might be more in control with the manager,
(24:11):
et cetera. Because even like when Hyder started there, I
tell them, listen, man, enjoy this. Enjoy this time when
you guys think we're literally really because nobody's gonna bother
you when you stink. They're only going to start bothering
you when you get pretty good or in the playoff situation,
if you get to that point. So it's actually probably
the best time. If the Orioles really wanted to promote change,
Let turn us over to the coaching staff. Turn us
(24:32):
over to the manager and the coaching staff. Let them
try to influence these guys in a way and bring
out some kind of a fire which are the lethargy
there is just based on their record. They show up
at the ballpark every day, they no longer expect to win,
they expect to lose. So how do you get the
guys out of this kind of adulgence? To me, the
players have to feel some kind of leadership from within
the clubhouse itself. They have to know whomever speaking to them,
(24:54):
whatever they're saying to them, is solid. This is this
is as it is, It's how it's supposed to be.
And they're not looking over their shoulder, over the manager's shoulder.
Who is really pulling the strings right here? Turn it over,
Turn it over to the field staff right there, let
him go, Let them be baseball guys, and let him
try to bring these guys out of their dulgeens. But
to try to do it analytically with a bunch of
(25:15):
dudes walking downstairs with dreams of information ain't gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
A couple of news items to get to.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
The Phillies will be without Jose Alvarado, who was suspended
failed a ped test, which means even once he comes
back the suspension's over, he cannot participate in the postseason.
That's big, Joe. I mean, this guy was throwing the
ball really well.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Now.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Alvarado, I guess, through his agent, claims that you know,
it was a banned substance that he didn't know about
that was part of a weight loss drug he was
taking in the off season. You know he's always bowled
his weight Listen, that's not an excuse. These guys professional athletes.
Everybody knows now what you can you cannot take. You
have to be very careful about what you put in
your body.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
He didn't.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
I'm not saying this is a cover story, but I've
heard a gazillion cover stories. Nobody ever comes out and says, yeah,
you got me, I did it, So I'm always suspicious
when guys come out with cover stories. It's nothing specific
to Jose Alvarado, but I've just heard it too many times.
I'm tired of it. That's a big loss for Philadelphia, Joe.
You know, I didn't think their bullpen was great to
(26:17):
begin with, and that guy can be nasty. I know
he's had control issues in the past, but he's been
good this year.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I think what's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I'm gonna have to wind up using one of their
starters in the pen late in the year slash postseason,
and maybe one of their young starters as well.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
You hate to do that.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
With a young guy, but have a guy even in
Christopher Sanchez, who's that was my dark horse Cy Young
Award candidate this year.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Somebody like that, they're gonna have to be creative.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I think, Yeah, Evarado, he's one of those guys that
could overcome control issues because the stuff is that good.
Back with the Rays, this is an example Maddy Moore
when Matti Mo came up. Matti mo he could shotgun
some pitches. Man, he could throw the ball all over
the place, but it was really hard for hitters to
square them up. Moved the baseball. Even after you might
have put two guys on it will just pop up strikeouts,
(27:08):
weak round balls after that. So that's the allure of Alvarado.
Was watching standing Pitch last night with the Mets and
the Yankees, and again he was a little bit shotgun,
but then again they weren't really squaring him up and
they ground ball to Alonzo was the dagger at that
particular point. So yeah, it's guys like Alvarado that's part
of the landscape right now. And so again it's almost
(27:31):
like the offensive side walks are encouraged and walks are
not necessarily discouraged with pitchers if their stuff is that good,
because they still believe in the swing and miss. They
believe the ball is not going to be put in play.
So guys like Alvarado can get beyond the point where
their fastball command and command in general is not that
good because they have so much swing and missing them
(27:52):
real quick.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
You mentioned the play last night with Pete Alonso. Unfortunately
that's part of Pete's game as well. He just does
not throw well that every time he makes that three
to one play to pitcher covering the bag breath, it's
an accident waiting to happen, and that play man. I
had an immediate flashback to the twenty fifteen World Series
with Eric Cosmer running on Lucas Duda, and I remember
(28:15):
after that game talking to the Royals coaching staff about
how they knew they knew from all the reports. Any
chance you have to make Lucas do to throw the baseball,
do it. And I'm sure that book is out there
on Pete Alonso, just the same way it was on
Jason Giambi. When you have a first baseman who can't throw,
it doesn't sound like a big deal until it is.
(28:36):
And I'm sure that was the report on Pete Alonzo.
I mean, you're gonna run anywhere. They had second and third,
so you can put the contact relay on that situation.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
But you listen. You get the home runs.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
He's having a great year, but you also get some
just times when you hold your breath when he has
to throw a baseball. It's weird, Joe, that it's not
that unusual for first baseman who just simply cannot throw.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Back in the day Frank Thomas who wanted him to
handle the baseball. There's been others. There's pictures that you
want to handle the base well, butunt right back at him.
When I had Maddy Garza, yes, the first at bat
playing the Red Sox playoff game at the Trump guars
Is pitching, he had a really hard time throwing the
first base, whether it was a pickoff whatever. So a
couple of days before that game, Jim Hickey took Maddie
(29:19):
down to al laning Field right down the street and
he was working on PfP with guards away from the
from the trup. First at bat, he was I'm pretty
sure's Coco Cris. He bunted it hard right back to Maddie.
Maddy turns the first and throws a ninety five on
our rocket Carlos at first that we caught it right, Wow,
(29:40):
chest high, unbelievable. You know what, that's stop. That stopped
all the bunny right there. Crazy how one play does that,
But it's it's part of the landscape. And I love
Anthony Rizzo, one of the best throwing first baseman. While
he joiner that I've had Jackie Snow, I've had some
really good throwing first basemen. They are inviable. But it's
part of the landscape. Again, we're talking about where anybody
can play first base these days. I'm not putting Alonso
(30:02):
in that category. I mean, he's a very very good
baseball player overall. But when you got a you got
a guy that can throw first baseman wise, and he's
left handed, which I really love. He could do a
lot of stuff, especially in the old game, with a
lot of bunting. Like we're just talking about us. Rizza
was so good we started crashing that distance between the
mound and first base before everybody caught on to it.
(30:24):
We were like getting pictures bunning right to Riz and
the slot right there were turning double plays because he
threw that one. He wanted to throw, so it's I
felt so bad for him. I was watching his face.
My god, he had to wear that. It's a very
embarrassing moment, and it's a tough moment for a guy
like him. I mean, I hope it does not impact
him moving forward offensively, whatever. But I honestly felt for
(30:45):
the guy because they know hert he's been working.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
It only happened at Yankee Stadium, so I'm sure New
York fans won't remember that play.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Don't forget about that. That's very good.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Another news item, Joe, I'm not sure if you saw
this one. The Texas Rangers signed a high school kid
out of Korea, Sung Young Kim, and they say they're
going to develop him as a two way player. He's
a shortstop and a pitcher. He is six foot two,
one hundred and eighty five pounds. He throws mid nineties
about ninety five mile hour fastball right now.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
So I like the idea. I mean the idea that.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
There's going to be another show. Hey, oh, Tony's just ridiculous.
It's not going to happen. We're not going to see that.
But why not take a guy for as long as
you can anyway. And he's probably more of a pitcher
right now, the scouts say than he is a hitter.
But he's got enough ability on both sides of the
baseball that, you know, being this young, why not, whether
it's extended spring training, rookie ball, what have you.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I'm all about this, Joe. I like it.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I think when you rule things out and to borrow
your phrase, you know, don't get in the way of greatness,
you know, don't put governors on people until you have to.
And I think if you're talking about a high school
player who's got the ability to do two different things,
I don't know yet at the major league level, but
I like the idea the Rangers are thinking this way.
And maybe this is also we're seeing a generation now
who sees Show Hey and say I want to do that.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
And let's face it, you had Show.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Hey with the Angels, and the reason he's a two
way player was because he wanted to do that, right,
That's the reason why he came over here, So why
take it away? So listen, I'm not saying this guy
is gonna be the next show he Oh, Tony, but
I applaud the Rangers for giving him the opportunity to
be a two way player.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Absolutely, the shortstop thing is he's gonna get if he's
going to pitch and play short stuff, that ain't gonna happen.
I don't think that's that's hard on the arm. Man,
it would have to be like a different position because
he's not unless he really starts banging it. He's not
a DH type. It doesn't sound like yet. I don't
know how well he runs, but it might be more
of an outfield kind of a situation, kind of a
big guy. Could even be first base possibly, which would
(32:46):
make more sense. But the shortstop pitcher combo, that's like
being in high school. And you know, I distinctly remember
doing those two things, and the day after I would
pitch and I had to play short stop, I would
open my buttons on my shirt so I could hold
him my pitching arm, my right arm in there like
a sling because it hurts so much, I mean, so
I didn't want it just to drop down by my side.
So it takes days for that to truly recover to
(33:09):
the point where you could play a position like shortstop.
So I think that'll change. But I'm with you, man,
go for it. Think it's interesting, and that's one of
those things that can you put that out there if
you're looking to allure young players. It's of course it's
a very very very very small percentage that may do that,
but nevertheless, it's kind of a something unique that really
draws eyeballs towards it. And you know, see why the Rangers,
(33:31):
I'm good with all that. Good for them, and let's
see what happens it all works out.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yeah, what do you think about the idea of maybe
second base and pitching. You make a good point about
playing shortstop. You know, I've talked with sports orthopedis to say,
you know, all these kids, and a lot of them
do because they tend to be the best players, best athletes,
they pitch and play shortstop growing up and on travel teams,
and a lot of orthopedias recommend against that. Like even
catching and pitching, which some kids do as well, is rough.
(33:57):
You know, they'd rather see you in the outfield or
especially at first base. So doing it professionally it's got
to be, you know, ten times hard. But what about
the possibility of playing second base and pitching?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Still too demanding?
Speaker 3 (34:09):
I think, so I do there's you know the throw
is in as long. From that perspective, I'm thinking about
turning double plays. I'm thinking about cutoff and relays right now.
Although the relay doesn't happen as often the turning of
the double play. Throwing across your body or against you know,
hitting the bag and then propelling yourself towards for a space,
there's a lot going on there. I think that wherever
(34:31):
you can put the minimal number of throws, like if
he's in right field on a nightly basis, just as
let's say left the right field, minimize the number of
throws you have in between innings playing catch, and then
even during the course of the game. I thought that
even having like a showy out there, what you do
is you really have your cutoff guys, go out there farther,
really try to decrease the length of throw has to be,
(34:51):
and I would discourage him from throwing the home plate,
even unless it's like the absolute when you run at
the end of the game, something we did with the Rays.
A couple of years ago, zim Don Zimill pointed out
to me Paul Richards, when he managed the White Sox
in the fifty a very bright manager insisted that is
outfielders never threw the ball at home always showed the
ball a second base, keep the double play in order
because of the infrequency of the guys being thrown out
(35:13):
at home plate. Maybe in Boston you might change that
a little bit with the short left field. But that
was kind of an interesting concept. Is that what we did.
We didn't have really good outfield arms. We just got
the ball through back to second, got the ball through
the ball back to second unless was the game winner
and you had to go to the plate. So there's
ways to mitigate it. The number of throws in the outfield.
They know it's a longer throw, but like I said,
you try to shorten things up, and these are the
(35:35):
things you can work on. So for me, I'd prefer
even I would prefer an outfield position over any infield position,
including first space.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Good stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Joe, Hey, I want to get your opinion on a
major change that was made at the Vatican in the
last couple of weeks that we didn't get a chance
to talk about last week. Yes, we'll do that right
after this on the Book of Joe. Welcome Back to
(36:10):
the Book of Joe podcast Tom Berducci with Joe Madden,
who if I remember correctly, Joe, weren't you once nicknamed Month?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Growing up?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I was? I was Joe Muzzoline. Muzzy was one of
my wide receivers, and because I would never curse, he
would reference refer to me as the month senior? What's
going on? One senior? And Joe muzz had terrible hands.
He's the wide receivers, a doctor, and I saw him
not too long ago. Muzzy hit him right in the chest.
The ball pop up in the air for any anybody
(36:39):
to intercept. Fun guy loved the guy, but he's the
one that dropped the month senior on me.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
So you would hit him in a bad spot the hands.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
Right in the hands like it was supposed to be had,
but hit his chest, go right through the hands, chest
pop up, here we go.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
There'd be a lot of umpires who would be shocked
to hear that nickname Joe knowing.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
You right, I know this and things change over time.
I mean I was, you know, growing up our Lady
of Grace the nuns all the time. My mom would
crack me if I said anything wrong. So I guess
I outgrew all that.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
So yes, the new Pope obviously, I'm alluding to Pope Leo.
He's from Chicago, where he was known as Father Bob.
The most amazing thing, I don't know if you've seen it, Joe,
this video that was unearthed from Game one of the
two thousand and five World Series. Father Bob is sitting
in the stands watching the White Sox win Game one
of the World Series. He looked like he had a
(37:29):
little bit of a nervous look on his face, which
is awesome, which tells you that's a legit fan.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Right Bobby Jenks is on the mound.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
I mean, the idea that the White Sox could win
a World Series game, let alone the series probably still
was beyond comprehension at that point. But man, listen, if
you perform one miracle, you're beautified. If you perform two,
you're eligible for sainthood. This guy now is watched and
oversaw that White Sox win a World Series, and that
became the first American to be elected by the Conclave
(37:58):
as Pope. I mean, those are two huge miracles right
there for Father Bob.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Don't think better than that would if he had been
watching over the twenty sixteen Cubs. I mean, my sisters saying,
Karmy said you could get an audience with the pope
because at the beginning everybody said he was a Cubs fan,
and all of a sudden it switched over to the
White Sox. I lost all my status at the Vatican. Yeah,
I did see that video. It's really cool, man, it's
really interesting to see that. It's so hard for us
(38:24):
to wrap our minds around this because we're from here,
and especially from Chicago, but there's a lot of like
people in different countries where popes have been elected, Like
whether it's in Poland or in Argentina, whatever, everybody comes
from somewhere, right, Everybody comes from and particularly these guys
normally come from pretty humble roots. It's not like you've
were born with the silver spoon in your mouth and
(38:45):
you attended the greatest universities eventually get elected pope. It's
normally something of you know, poverty or some more humble beginning.
So yeah, I like everything about him I'm reading so far,
like his philosophies, I like his the direction he's talking about.
Religion is not supposed to be easy, you know, That's
what I've always thought. And again, I'm a Catholic I practice.
(39:08):
Once in a while, I got to admit I should
be better at it. But to acquiesce to religion all
the time, I've never quite understood that where you're trying
to make it easier for the congregation or followers. Potentially,
it is what it is, and I think that's always
going to approach it. I've always been concerned when the
things I was not supposed to do as a kid
became more tolerable, tolerable as I got older. I was
(39:29):
always concerned with that kind of decision making.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, that's probably true in society, right, we're becoming much
more laxed in terms of what should be allowed or
especially convenient. You know, one of my complaints is a
lot of technology, a lot of innovations have almost all
been on the side of convenience. How can we make
things easier? And easier doesn't always equate to better, right.
(39:52):
We talk a lot about discipline and struggling, and certainly
Pope Leo's one of these people who can attest to that.
I mean, it's from Chicago, yes, but missionary work in Peru.
He seems to belong to the world, you know, multi linguist,
the Peruvian South Americans look at him as one of
their own. Chicago looks at him as one of their own.
I think that's a great thing. And he is speaking
the message of peace right off the bat which, my goodness,
(40:14):
do we need that in the world today. So yeah,
like you, I like everything that I've heard about him.
He seems like he's just taking the baton from Francis
and running with it in terms of humility, making sure
the underserved are better served.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
So all good signs. Maybe not for the White Sox yet,
but maybe in time.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, that's interesting. I'm curious as he settles into his
role there if there's going to be more recognition or
commentary about the White Sox, especially if they begin to ascend.
That'd be kind of interesting to see. I guess, well,
that's two great white Sox fans. Obama, that's right. President
Obama was a big white Sox fan. I went to
England one off season while Obama was president. You walk
(40:55):
into these big department stores in London. There's white Sox
here everywhere, and I said, what's oh, Oh, that's right.
Obama is a white Sox fan. So good for the
White Sox. They could use the help right now.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, I meantime that it looks like the Chicago Cubs
are back, Joe. I'm not sure how much you'll be
able to watch them, but offensively, yeah, they're a really.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Good offensive team.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
They've had some injuries on the pitching staff, There's no
question about that. They've survived it well because guys like
Pete Crow Armstrong are just hitting next level Michael Bush,
I mean, up and down the lineup. It seems like
this is a very deep and dangerous lineup. Obviously Kyle
Tucker has made a huge difference there. But now I'd
have to say that, all due respect to Milwaukee and
what they've done, the Cubs are the team to beat
in that division.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Yeah, I mean Saint Louis is making some noise right
now too. I want to see how serious that is.
But I agree, I do watch the Cubs. Armstrong, Crow, i'mstrong,
is really he's got. He's just a life wirey, strong
human being. I mean, he's a throwback kind of a player.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Hey, Joe, let me let me stop you and ask
you about him, because it's a I like this and
I know you're really into your experience as a hitting coach.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Kind of the changes that you can make with hitters.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
The guy was a one sixty nine hitter getting the
bat knocked out of his hands.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Last year.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
He's on an zero for seventeen street. The team goes
to Kansas City and the hitting coach, Dustin Kelly, brings
me into the batting cage and what he was doing
was he was drifting forward as he strove with his
front foot, his hips in his head would follow.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Obviously, you got nothing on the backside.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
You're actually shortening the amount of time you have to
read a baseball when you do that. So they started
with a drill where he picked up the front foot
and he felt the weight on his back side, he
felt loading on the back hip and just hitting balls
off of tee like this, you know, just telling him,
this is the way you need to stay back and
stop this drift that you have. It was just a
drill in the cage. They gave him a day off
(42:48):
to work on that. The next game he decides to
go right into the game with it, and he's absolutely
just killed the ball ever since then. I mean, the
guy's in the top five and slugging in the major leagues.
And like I said, he couldn't. He's getting the bat
knocked out of his hands up until midway through last year.
So let me get your take, Joe on what it
(43:09):
takes for someone to make an adjustment mid season like that.
Obviously he's a great athlete and just to have it
take so quickly.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Well, your explanation, your description is right on the money.
I didn't realize all that had happened. But you're talking
about some classic stuff. What I used to do. I
did this with Dante Boschett. Dante used to be a
big jumper. This is before some of the new contraptions
came out. I used to at Guenautry Park. I got
an extension court and I would wrap it through the
back of the batting cage, the tunnel the turtle and
(43:39):
I haven't put it around his waist and I would
stand behind the batting tunnel as somebody who's throwing a
VP and I would hold him from jumping or drifting
straight ahead. For me, the stride foot is a reach,
it's not a step. So when to really try to
stay behind the ball with your front side, keep your
top pan behind the ball, keep your head behind the ball.
It's kind of a reach with that front foot and
everything stays put. And when you do do that, then
(44:01):
all of a sudden you create like you said, more time,
see the ball longer if you stay behind the ball,
which makes it stronger. But this is an age old
discipline problem where guys want to drift or walk towards
the mound. And like you suggest, it is absolutely true.
The pitch gets faster, pitchers get quicker because you're shortening
up the distance and your head's moving so much. So
that makes all the sense in the world to me.
(44:22):
And what the coach there did, and I one hundred
thousand percent believer in this. You have to create the
right field. Drill work done properly is the d way
to go in regarding to on a daily basis or
when you're attempting to elicit a change. Because until arm
Crawenstrong said I feel it. He didn't know it, but
the moment because he understood what the coach was saying,
(44:43):
I get this, I know you're talking about, do this,
do that. But and then all of a sudden he
takes a swing and all of a sudden, poom, there
it goes, and he says, man, I felt it, And
the coach standing right there, says exactly, that's what we're
trying to get done, and at that point you have
an adjustment that can last. Zobrist. Ben Zobrist in two
thousand and eight was kind of like Peter Armstrong, who's
(45:06):
like the line drive flipping the ball to center field,
groundball kind of stuff. He goes back to Triple A.
I don't know what was Hindu, Steve Henderson, whomever, but
he comes back and my god, the ball's going in
the stands. We go to play Detroit at the end
of the year and Leland Jimmy says, my god, I
love this guy Zobrist because all of a sudden, because
those are pretty big guy power was added to his swing.
(45:29):
Of course, it can be done. Feel is it's all
about field. You has as a coach. You have to
put your your pupil in a position to feel what
you're trying to get across. And like I said, once
you feel it, you know it.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I love these stories, Joe, because you know, a lot
of fans think guys get to the major leagues and
their finished products, and the fact that major league coaches
make a difference, and they make a huge difference, especially
in today's game because guys get there very quickly.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
It just goes to show you a reminder of how
important they are.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
Absolutely, I mean that that's it. I mean, and turn
them loose, turn them loose. I mean, that's just good
old baseball acumen right there, making that adjustment. And that's
the thing, man. I never felt inhibited by anybody within
the organization regarding what to teach and how to teach.
It developed all these kind of drills in the eighties
and the nineties, with velocity at short distances, heavy bats,
(46:20):
all this different stuff. I was never discouraged to try
different things like that, and all I was written like
this hundred page thing on hitting did in the nineteen eighties,
and I still got to dress it up a little bit,
but the one section is about field drills and anything
I try to do an attempt to elicit a change
with Tom Raducci swing, I had to put you into
(46:42):
positions that you felt the difference. So because the moment
you felt the difference and saw the result, now you
know I know him on the right path. But until
you could actually put together the information and feel simultaneously,
we don't have anything yet.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Good stuff, Joe, and it's time for our core of
the day, and you alluded to it early on. It
sounds like we're going full circle back to to the
Baltimore Orioles firing Brandon Hyde.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
We are. This is from Thomas Sowell. The most basic
question is not what is best, but who shall decide
what is best? Decision making? Listen, I've been all about
it the best organizations for years. They always work well
from the top down ownership. It always starts there, and
then you get to a front office and who is
who are the decision making the scouting? Scouting and player
(47:29):
development still the heartbeat of any organization. And whose eyes
are we relying on here? Now? I know in today's
world it's a lot of data driven stuff, and I
am all for that. I want absolutely thousand percent. I
always wanted that stuff. But I also like real eyes
on these human beings also, and then also within the
(47:50):
eyes the conversation what makes this guy tech? Like? You're
talking about the Oriols a minute ago, and we're talking
about I wrote it down here because I mean, you
never questioned anybody's heart, But where's their competitive nature? They
all seem to all of a sudden simultaneously become lethargic,
or they've they've lost this kind of a thing because
they're struggling a little bit. That bothers me. So that
(48:10):
was number one of the most basic question is not
what is best, but who shall decide what is best?
I've always believed in that last point, not to decide
is is also a decision in a baseball game. As
a manager, I would always try to attempt to portray
that after a game when I was asked about you know,
different things happen in the game when you decide not
(48:32):
to do something. Nobody knows that, right, because the only
decisions we recognize are ones where you actually pull a trigger.
You know, you got out there and you make a move,
whether it's a pitching move or maybe move your defense around.
That's obvious. But you also ruminate over things and then
you decide not to do anything. And that's very powerful too,
that people never know when you make a decision to
not react or act, and those are also important. And
(48:55):
again I'm going to go back to cash. Brian Cash,
whan I thought he did a great job when they
were at two games over five hundred a couple of
years ago, and he decided to go a different route,
and that was to stay with a pat hand and
go internal and let's make this thing work from within.
I love that. I even told him that. I told
him how what a great job I thought he did
(49:17):
putting that back together. So not to decide to not
do something is also a decision.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Good stuff, Joe. We will meet again next week and.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Hopefully we don't have another manager fire to talk about.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
I hope not, Tony. Thanks buddy.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
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The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey thereon, Welcome back to the latest episode of the
Book of Joe with Tom Berducci.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
That's me and Joe Madden. That's you, Joe. How you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I am doing well, Tommy.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
It's amazing that we're still it seems like a regular
episode now here talking about managers getting fired Joe. Right
this time it's Brandon Hyde of the Baltimore Orioles. I
know Hyder was on your staff in Chicago. You've known
them for a long time. Give me your initial reaction
when you heard the Orioles were making a change.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Well, obviously their record's not good. And then you're always
at the mercy of decision makers trying to decide why
is the record not good? And you don't have to
look very far under the hood to realize why they
weren't doing so well and it had nothing to do
with Hyder. I was really disappointed. Again, it's just the
the way the world works. Sometimes in our industry, there
(01:07):
are some gms or presidents that get it that, really,
I think, evaluate the situation better and then really try
to address the absolute reason why we're having a hard
time as opposed to those that just want to possibly,
you know, I don't want to say safe face, but
maybe safe face and offer up the sacrificial land. Because
Hyder is that good. Did the guy's manager of the
(01:28):
year two years ago? They won ninety some games. Last year,
of course wasn't everything you're expecting, but this is a
young team that still is sending These guys are still learning.
They caught the baseball world by storm a couple of
years ago, and then all of a sudden a reality
sits in and the league adjust to them. Now they
have to adjust back to the league. So I was
really disappointed. Quite frankly, I've been texting with Hyder. I
(01:51):
didn't like it. I don't think it makes any sense.
I know the record is not good, but it's not
his fault.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
One hundred percent agree.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I mean, when you think about it, Joe, this guy
went to back to back postseasons with a team that
he guided through a huge rebuilding program.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
That's right here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We are a quarter of the way through the next season,
after back to back postseasons, and they say there's the
door leave. It's obviously not a manager's problem. It's a
roster construction problem. Yeah, there's some injuries here, but my
goodness that you know every team.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
You know this, Joe, every team has injuries.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
It's a matter of how much depth do you have
to withstand those injuries.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And the Orioles to me, were never a playoff team
this year.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I'd never liked the roster, going back to the trade
deadline last year, Halloy Jmenez, Trevor Rodgers in this passed
off season.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
You know, Corbyn Burns leaves. I get it. Maybe you
couldn't contend any for.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
A guy who wants to go back home to Arizona,
but he replaced them with Charlie Morton forty one years old.
As far as your offense goes, you lose Anthony Santander
and you pick up Tyler O'Neill, Gary Sanchez.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I mean, it's just you look at this team, Joe.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
To me, when this season started, I did not like
the Baltimore Orioles, and they're playing worse than I thought
they were. Now I understand a lot of this is
face saving. You pretty much hinted at this, Joe, right,
you need escapegoate here. What happened to me is obviously
they're struggling, and then they had that lost Friday night,
which is about as bat of a loss as you can.
(03:21):
It's sort of the equivalent to the Rockies, and that
twenty one nothing lost to the Padres. They lost in
a way that nobody's ever lost a game before. They
put twenty runners on base, they stranded fifteen, they struck
out fifteen times, and they scored only three runs. It
was an abomination. They swung a miss thirty two times,
(03:42):
and they lost the game when the closer Felix Bautista,
who by the way, did not get a swing a
miss and his velocity was down across the board. But anyway,
he's covering first base on a ground ball to the
right side with a runner on second base, bang bank
play at first.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
The runner is safe. He is not alert to the
trail runner.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
And that's how the Washington Nationals scored the winning run
with Joe.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You've seen it a million times.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
How many times in spring training the guys do this
ad nauseum cover first, check the trail runner.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
He didn't do that, let his guard down. So this
lack of alertness.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
You had Atlee Rushman behind the plate on a pass ball,
jogging after the ball. So the runner who was stealing
at first base goes all the way to third. You
had Jackson Holliday, who's covering on that play, who vacated
the bag instead of deking the runner to make sure
there was a throw to force a slide, vacated the bag.
The runners heads up now that there is no play,
and that's why he went to third. So that's the
(04:38):
kind of ugly loss. And listen, it's a super small
sample size. It's one loss, I get it. But for
if the ownership is on the fence, that's kind of
a last straw kind of game.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, and again I'm still not blaming him. I mean,
obviously there's a lethargy among the group based on their record,
and they got to shake and they got to fight
through it, no question. But even going back beyond what
you're saying there, just I was reading some stuff. I
think they sounded like eight guys last year something that
that effect in their accumulative war if you're into that stuff,
is less than one. It's a point in negative point eight.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So yeah, and they did. You're right, they did boost
their payroll. I think they had the highest percentage boosting
their payroll. But how did you spend that money that's
not on the manager.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Well, that's it exactly. That's my point. I mean, you
start looking at this is this is why. And I'm
already going into the end because I already had my
quote of the day based on all this. But this
is this is Brian Cashman. This, this is like why
I love Cash. The Yankees stunk a couple of years ago.
Cash did not panic. He did not start slicing everybody off.
(05:39):
He went and he was accountable to the whole thing,
got together with the whole group. We got to get
better at this. Where are we lacking right here? And
he still has the same group there that was there
a couple of years ago, and they're doing pretty good
right now. There are times when leadership has to suck
it up and admit that they're the problem and not
not the the In this situation, field staff compared to
(06:00):
a front office. To me, the analytical department is culpable
as much as anything. If you're Gonn bringing O'Neil and all
these other guys, Sanchez to replace the people that had
left the stand there, et cetera, bad guess. And then
of course Charlie Warreon, he's been so good for a while,
but my god, forty one years old, what do you expect.
There's such a lot of bad assumptions on their part, right,
(06:20):
And I know these are all analytical decisions. There's no question.
When you're starting to pick up guys like O'Neil, et cetera,
you start looking for this platoon advantage stuff, and this
is something that the analytical department is going to jump
into and attempt to be able to put their stamp
of approval on this and eventually believe it's going to
work out. And then it doesn't, that's okay. Well we
all screw up on a decision, but that's okay. But
(06:42):
then don't start blaming somebody else. That's where I have
an issue with this whole thing. It's something that permeates
the entire industry, and that's where I think we need
to get better when it comes down to deciphering what
has gone wrong here, Let's do a better job of that.
And you stop putting out your manager, your hitting coach,
your pitching coaches, et cetera. Putting them out there. There's
(07:04):
a reason why. It's not the reason why. It's the
acquisitional process that's flawed. That's what it comes down to
all the analytical departments. They have their own little cocktail
that they derived their decision making from. Put some better
ingredients in your cocktail and you might get a better results.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, Tyler O'Neill, to me, he's a platoon player. You know,
he doesn't hit right hand pitching. He's had one season,
he's turning thirty years old. He's had one season where
he's had five hundred played appearances. He doesn't stay healthy.
He's not an everyday player. I'm sorry that that was
a mistake. They just looked at numbers last year and
thought they needed help against left handed pitching, and that's
(07:38):
why they signed Sanchez and O'Neill, and both them been
hurt and ineffective. There's a lot to be concerned about
with this team. Let me start with Adlie Rushman. That
guy's gone backward. And let's not forget this ownership group,
this front office. Their first draft, they had Bobby Witt
Junior and Adlie Rushman and they took a catcher one
to one. I have a five tools shortstop.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Now. Adlie, you know, to his credit.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
To the big leagues and looked like a polished player,
a leader, a catcher behind the plate switch hitter great,
but historically you don't draft catchers that high, and I
don't know what's happened to him.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
In his last calendar year, he's hitting two twenty with
a three to zero five on base percentage. His bad
at slow, he's a ground ball machine. Last year, first
time probably failed in his life at anything, had a
really high chase rate. This year he's been great as
far as getting back to plate discipline. He's just not
hitting the ball hard. It's that simple, and I'd be
(08:36):
concerned about that if I'm the Orioles that this has
gone on now for a little more than a year
and he's supposed to be one of your franchise core guys.
So I look at Rushman, I look at Heston Kirstad,
who's getting some run and really not doing much with it.
He's a lot of swing and missing in this game.
I don't like him defensively as well. Maybe the core
isn't what we thought it was with this Baltimore Orioles team.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
That's what I'm talking about. You take a deep, deep
dive like what they're they're analyzing. What their consuer ing
here is that the staff there has not done a
good enough job to make these guys better. Rushman like
hit the ground running, like you said a couple of
years ago. So he's regressed. Why I want to know why?
If the power you explained to one part about it
where he started to chase, and now he's not chasing.
That's good that happens, But why is the power so
(09:20):
deficient all of a sudden. There's got to be reasons why,
But that that needs to be I don't know. That's
gonna They're gonna look for the analytical reasons. They're going
to look at all the data regarding that exit velocities,
what maybe is a bat path, all those different kind
of things. But what's he thinking? Has he gotten weaker?
Is it all this catch and he already taken some toll?
(09:41):
Maybe the body's not good enough. I don't know, but
that's that's a bad process as far as I'm concerned.
The other kid cures stat I haven't seen enough of him,
but I know they had a lot of high hopes there.
Now the shortstop Henderson, here's the guy. A couple years
ago we were arguing who was better him or Bobby
Wood Jr. And I think is still a legitimate argument.
I still I'm a wit guy. But there's there's a
(10:02):
bunch of guys there within this team that are underperforming. Why.
I don't know why. I don't watch them often enough.
But again, like you said, maybe it was an over
evaluation at some point, and that happens. That happens when
a team bust on the scene earlier, a couple of
young guys. It hit the ground run and all of
a sudden, the assumption is that they're going to be
like that for ten the next ten years. Not always true.
(10:25):
Your mind gets in a way, your body breaks down somewhere.
Maybe this whatever it is within his body is not
feeling quite as good as it did when he first
arrived here. There's a lot of underlying reasons why, but
the overarching reason is not because the manager is not
good at what he does anymore. That's the part that
really bums me out. A lot of these guys feel
like they're forced to make a change just for the
(10:47):
sake of change. And listen, there's nothing wrong with that
if you've really identified that as the problem. But please
take the time to identify the real problem. That's why
I've always had issues like I've had press conferences where
teams start. MY team might be struggling and all of
a sudden you get questions as to why, and my
answer would almost always be listening, let me, let's let's
(11:08):
really look and find out what the real reason is
behind is and not just the superficial stuff that everybody
could jump on and you provide a sacrificial lamp. I
could go on and on about this. I've been in
situations like this, so I do not believe Hyder was
the issue. I believe Hider's a very good manager. I
know he's strong in the clubhouse, he knows what he believes,
he's got a sharp baseball mind. I know that was
(11:29):
not the issue. So yeah, I'm banging on him a
little bit because I don't like it. I really thought
they're going to be in a hunt this year, and
for whatever reason, something is disconnected there and I'm telling
you what, it's not in the clubhouse.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, I mean you have to start with the pitching, though, Joe.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I mean, only the Rockies have a higher era than
the Baltimore Orioles. And as I said, you know, I'll
listen to Grayson Rodrigue is not there. Andrew Kittridge not there.
But again, every team has injuries. What kind of depth
do you have to survive? Now, this group in Baltimore
front office, they came from Houston. They supposedly cracked the
code on how to develop young pitchers and get swings,
(12:03):
and I haven't seen that in Baltimore. Remember this year
they brought the fence in the wall in left field,
which they probably should have. They over corrected and made
it way too high and deep, and they brought it
in and they don't have the kind of pitching staff
now to make that seem like it was a good decision.
So to me, I look at the pure stuff on
(12:24):
this staff, Joe, and it's not very good. You know,
they signed Kyle Gibson late. Now he's gone. He had
four of the most awful starts you would ever just imagine.
Just not a major league pitcher. I hate to say
that because Kyle's had a great career. He's a great guy.
But stuff wise, again, I don't know what you're looking
at to sign these guys. Charlie Morton fifteen million dollars. Well,
(12:45):
the Mets go out and get a Griffin Canning to
solve their issues. I mean, these things go on and on.
But I looked at this staff when the season started
before the injuries and said, no, this is not good enough.
And you're right, that's not on the manager.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
He did not assemble the staff. Baseball managers have very
little input regarding their rosters anymore. They don't, But there
was a time and I actually thought they staffed too
much power. But I was coming up in the eighties
early nineties, my sit in on meetings, and what happened
at that time was managers and coaches would be influenced
based on how a player played against their team. Only
(13:20):
we didn't get to see the magnitude of games that
everybody's able to see now or scout now via data, video, whatever.
That was not part of the landscape at that time.
You scouted based on what you saw against you how
many of her times that year. So I always thought
that was a bad method for acquisition when the manager
and the staff had way too much input in that
(13:41):
because they were only based on what they saw in
spring training. Maybe a kid was doing well then, but
he's not doing well now. Or the teams that were
playing against they would scout them obviously, and a guy
would have a hot series against them, all of a
sudden they like them. It's not like the NFL. The NFL,
I believe the NFL coaches and staff have a greater
input into this decision making process because the way the
(14:02):
timing works with the draft, and they can and they're
all they ever do is study film anyway, and that's
the primary way to do this. So NFL coaches can't
sit down. They could watch all this, they could interview
at the end of their season before the draft, and
so they could be more involved in this decision making process,
which I think is great. But on the baseball side,
it's impossible. It's impossible. I'm here to tell you the
(14:23):
way our season works, all the work you have to
do on a daily basis, the scouting of it. Here
comes the draft. You got your team to worry about it. Obviously,
there's no way a major league cut manager and staff
have the same kind of input I've had. Back with
the Rays, they gave me a video buster Posey versus
Timmy Beckham. That was the decision at that time. When
the race took Beckham, I I don't know with Posy
(14:45):
taking beforemer after him. I can't remember that specifically.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
The Rays passed on Posey. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
So that was that was That was a video being
passed around at that time. I don't even know how
much was based on the fact they didn't want to
pay whatever Posy might have wanted. That's another story. But yeah,
all this stuff to me is really difficult for me.
I can't concede. I can't concede on this one whatsoever
because I know so at the end of the day,
managers and coaches on the major league level will get
(15:11):
very little input in regards to who's on that team
and in today's world, who plays and how often. And
you know, you have discussions about a particular player, and
I know how I feel about this guy, and I
start my discussion and maybe I'm taking the negative or
the conside to this argument, where the front office staff
and the analytical department it's more pro of this particular
(15:32):
player by the end, and they want to know what
I think. But by the end of the discussion, regardless
of what I think, it's going to be, the conversation
is going to flow in that direction. I'm just telling
you it's absolute fact and truth. So for those of
you that are Hyder fans, just know that he's really
good at what he does. It was not properly done
right there, right now, and I think they're going to
suffer for it for a bit. Last point, who's going
(15:53):
to replace him? Right when you're gonna do something like this?
I mean, if I'm a GM and I think before
the season began or whatever, I have to always keep
it back in my mind. What if this goes wrong
or sideways all of a sudden, my guy isn't doing
what I thought he can do or what he was like,
who's going to be that next guy? And you always
(16:13):
need to know that. So who's going to replace him?
That's a really interesting question to me too.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
That's a great point, Joe. I've always said that when
a team makes a move, you better know that you
have somebody better on hand. I don't like the just
the knee jerk reaction. Well, let's get the manager, then
we'll figure out where we're going next. No, you better
have that in mind right now. You know, they named
the third base coach, Tony Mansilino as the manager. I'm
assuming it's interim. We'll see. You know, he did manage
(16:42):
in the minor leagues for four seasons. He ran the
games when Terry Francone and Cleveland was out during the
COVID year of twenty twenty. Of course, his father has
been a longtime baseball guy. I've been with the Atlanta
Braves most recently last six seven years in player development.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
So a good baseball guy.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
But I don't get the sense that you know this
is their long term answer and who it is I
don't know, but I know this the Baltimore Orioles.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Uh, they've earn't every.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Bit of this fifteen to thirty record, and they're not
making the playoffs. I'll tell you that right now. You're
just not this bad and all of a sudden turn
it around and they're really bad. I mentioned the pitching.
The batting average is the worst in the dh ERA
for any Baltimore team. They've won only four games this
year when the opponents scored first. I mean, that's unbelievable.
They're four and twenty one. I'm not talking about being
(17:29):
down five runs even at the one run on the
board by the other team. They don't come back. They're
oh and twenty five when they trail after six innings,
and going back to last April, if are down four,
they're oh and fifty six. This is the team over
the last year, last one hundred and sixty two games.
So this is not just a bad month seventy seven
(17:49):
and eighty five. So it just and we talked about
this before, Joe, this idea that you're going to build
a sustainable winner is nonsense. If you're a fan, don't
buy it from your team unless you're the Dodgers and
the Yankees.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
It ain't happening.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
To build a sustainable winner, you have to seize these windows.
And we thought the Orioles had a window that opened
in twenty three. Great team, and you know they progressed
a little bit last year, but they did make the postseason.
They did have a four second half. The window's gone
right now the Oriols right now to really reassess where
they are as an organization. So when you have a
(18:24):
core group and it looks like they're ready to win,
you need to pay that off the way the twenty
fifteen Royals did by going out and getting Ben's Oberst
and Johnny Quato. Don't talk to me like you're going
to contend every year for the next decade.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
It doesn't happen.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
In the game.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
You need to really go all in when you've got
a team that's ready to win because you can't keep
them together, and injuries happen, and sustainable winning just doesn't
happen unless you're in New York or LA.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
The misconception is that it's easy to win a major
League baseball game. We often used to laugh in a dugout,
it's really hard to win a major League baseball game.
I mean, I don't know what it looks like from
a distance, and some teams are obviously better than others.
But after you win a major League baseball game, it's like, Wow,
you just exhale, and it's such a wonderful feeling on
a nightly basis to win a major League baseball game.
(19:14):
There's so much going on. Both sides are talented. There's
a laser thin line between winning and losing, even among
the best of the worst. Of course, the best have
the guys that are obviously paid for better, longer lineage,
and probably make less mistakes. That's probably one of the
biggest things. Probably make a lot less mental mistakes. And
(19:34):
at the other end of it, you're going to see
a lot of young guys coming up, great bodies, athleticism,
et cetera. But don't really know how to play the game,
and there is something to be said about learning how
to win. What does that mean on a daily basis? Man,
it's kind of a competitive thing and you're not going
to be denied and you're not going to make the
To me, it's probably there's no way to prove this,
(19:54):
but it's about making fewer, way fewer mental mistakes than
the other teammates. And it really comes down to the
mental mistakes and a lot of games between winning and losing.
So I could go on and on about this, but
it is personal for me on this one. Emotionally, I
know how good Hider is. I know how good he is,
and to evaluate it this way, to me, was absolutely
wrong and I'm just not going to hold back on
(20:15):
this one.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Well, we will check in on how the Rockies and
Pirates are doing. The other two teams have changed managers,
will do that and we'll talk about perhaps the next show. Hey, Otani,
I can't believe I just said that, but we'll talk
about that right after this shortbreak.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
It was interesting, Joe that all three teams have fired managers,
and I always believe that for a team like Baltimore.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Once other teams have fired managers.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
It makes it easier for them to do it right. Yeah,
but in all three cases they just went internally with
replacements for veteran managers. Iraqis since they fired Buddy Black,
they're one and five the Pirates. I mean, they've been
on just an incredible streak now, twenty three straight games
where they have not scored more than four runs. So
(21:14):
Don Kelly might be a good baseball guy in time.
Nothing's changed there. That's the thing about these changes, Joe.
It used to be maybe you brought somebody in, you know,
Billy Martin and Jack McKeon type, who was really going
to change the culture and shake some things up. I
don't see that happening in all three places here, I
really don't.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
No, it's true. There's they they don't want these guys
to come in and do anything differently. They want these
guys to come in and listen. That's it. The manager
today's world, we've alluded to in the last segment and
not alluded to it. Set it straight up, has very
little influence, very little influence. It's the game has run
so much by what happens above them that when you
(21:54):
bring somebody in, they don't want they being organizations, they
don't want somebody to come in with a strong personality
like you're talking about guys that have made brought along
change in the past, because they don't want to give
him that kind of quote unquote power in order to
make the changes they're they're just they're not change agents
(22:14):
at all. They're just they're there because they're young, they're controllable,
or they've been around for a bit. And again still
what somewhat controllable are a lot of controllable because that's
how the game's run today. It's just just a matter
of fact. I'm not saying anything that I know a
lot of guys that coaches, players would ever listen to
our podcast, and they always come back and they appreciate
that we're saying these kinds of things. But it's true.
(22:35):
So they're not change agents. They're there to carry out
the wishes of the front office. Most of the time.
They're able to communicate well with the media, which is
also really important today's genre of professional sports. I get
all that. So if you're looking for this guy to
come in and quote unquote shake things up, he's not
permitted to Even if he's capable of doing that, he's
not going to be permitted to shake things up. It's
(22:57):
going to be still dictated from the top down.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, and I know, small sample size, but after the
Brandon Hyde firing, you know, I cover the game Saturday
against Washington. They came out and Kyle Gibson was just awful,
gave up six runs, but misjudge fly balls, poor defense,
missing cutoff men, lethargic at bats, and they get wiped out.
The next day again ninety four, he got swept at
home by the Washington Nationals. I didn't see any change
(23:22):
there in terms of energy or approach. So we'll see.
I don't think it's going to get much better for Baltimore.
I really don't. It's a tough division, maybe not as
tough as we thought, by the way, with the Yankees
the only team with the winning record, but fifteen to
thirty and heading the wrong direction, it's going to take
a while for this team to turn it around. Be
interesting to see what they do at the trade deadline, Joe.
(23:43):
They've had terrible trade deadlines, they've had bad off seasons,
a lot of pressure on them now to do something
with this team to get a new direction.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Well that as when you're not doing well, what they
know a lot of times we'll do is they'll step
byside and they will permit the manager more leeway in
regards to what he's doing because they don't perceive to
be in the running. They're not going to get as
involved with this whatever the decision is. On a daily basis,
the lineup might be more in control with the manager,
(24:11):
et cetera. Because even like when Hyder started there, I
tell them, listen, man, enjoy this. Enjoy this time when
you guys think we're literally really because nobody's gonna bother
you when you stink. They're only going to start bothering
you when you get pretty good or in the playoff situation,
if you get to that point. So it's actually probably
the best time. If the Orioles really wanted to promote change,
Let turn us over to the coaching staff. Turn us
(24:32):
over to the manager and the coaching staff. Let them
try to influence these guys in a way and bring
out some kind of a fire which are the lethargy
there is just based on their record. They show up
at the ballpark every day, they no longer expect to win,
they expect to lose. So how do you get the
guys out of this kind of adulgence? To me, the
players have to feel some kind of leadership from within
the clubhouse itself. They have to know whomever speaking to them,
(24:54):
whatever they're saying to them, is solid. This is this
is as it is, It's how it's supposed to be.
And they're not looking over their shoulder, over the manager's shoulder.
Who is really pulling the strings right here? Turn it over,
Turn it over to the field staff right there, let
him go, Let them be baseball guys, and let him
try to bring these guys out of their dulgeens. But
to try to do it analytically with a bunch of
(25:15):
dudes walking downstairs with dreams of information ain't gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
A couple of news items to get to.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
The Phillies will be without Jose Alvarado, who was suspended
failed a ped test, which means even once he comes
back the suspension's over, he cannot participate in the postseason.
That's big, Joe. I mean, this guy was throwing the
ball really well.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Now.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Alvarado, I guess, through his agent, claims that you know,
it was a banned substance that he didn't know about
that was part of a weight loss drug he was
taking in the off season. You know he's always bowled
his weight Listen, that's not an excuse. These guys professional athletes.
Everybody knows now what you can you cannot take. You
have to be very careful about what you put in
your body.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
He didn't.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
I'm not saying this is a cover story, but I've
heard a gazillion cover stories. Nobody ever comes out and says, yeah,
you got me, I did it, So I'm always suspicious
when guys come out with cover stories. It's nothing specific
to Jose Alvarado, but I've just heard it too many times.
I'm tired of it. That's a big loss for Philadelphia, Joe.
You know, I didn't think their bullpen was great to
(26:17):
begin with, and that guy can be nasty. I know
he's had control issues in the past, but he's been
good this year.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I think what's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I'm gonna have to wind up using one of their
starters in the pen late in the year slash postseason,
and maybe one of their young starters as well.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
You hate to do that.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
With a young guy, but have a guy even in
Christopher Sanchez, who's that was my dark horse Cy Young
Award candidate this year.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Somebody like that, they're gonna have to be creative.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I think, Yeah, Evarado, he's one of those guys that
could overcome control issues because the stuff is that good.
Back with the Rays, this is an example Maddy Moore
when Matti Mo came up. Matti mo he could shotgun
some pitches. Man, he could throw the ball all over
the place, but it was really hard for hitters to
square them up. Moved the baseball. Even after you might
have put two guys on it will just pop up strikeouts,
(27:08):
weak round balls after that. So that's the allure of Alvarado.
Was watching standing Pitch last night with the Mets and
the Yankees, and again he was a little bit shotgun,
but then again they weren't really squaring him up and
they ground ball to Alonzo was the dagger at that
particular point. So yeah, it's guys like Alvarado that's part
of the landscape right now. And so again it's almost
(27:31):
like the offensive side walks are encouraged and walks are
not necessarily discouraged with pitchers if their stuff is that good,
because they still believe in the swing and miss. They
believe the ball is not going to be put in play.
So guys like Alvarado can get beyond the point where
their fastball command and command in general is not that
good because they have so much swing and missing them
(27:52):
real quick.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
You mentioned the play last night with Pete Alonso. Unfortunately
that's part of Pete's game as well. He just does
not throw well that every time he makes that three
to one play to pitcher covering the bag breath, it's
an accident waiting to happen, and that play man. I
had an immediate flashback to the twenty fifteen World Series
with Eric Cosmer running on Lucas Duda, and I remember
(28:15):
after that game talking to the Royals coaching staff about
how they knew they knew from all the reports. Any
chance you have to make Lucas do to throw the baseball,
do it. And I'm sure that book is out there
on Pete Alonso, just the same way it was on
Jason Giambi. When you have a first baseman who can't throw,
it doesn't sound like a big deal until it is.
(28:36):
And I'm sure that was the report on Pete Alonzo.
I mean, you're gonna run anywhere. They had second and third,
so you can put the contact relay on that situation.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
But you listen. You get the home runs.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
He's having a great year, but you also get some
just times when you hold your breath when he has
to throw a baseball. It's weird, Joe, that it's not
that unusual for first baseman who just simply cannot throw.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Back in the day Frank Thomas who wanted him to
handle the baseball. There's been others. There's pictures that you
want to handle the base well, butunt right back at him.
When I had Maddy Garza, yes, the first at bat
playing the Red Sox playoff game at the Trump guars
Is pitching, he had a really hard time throwing the
first base, whether it was a pickoff whatever. So a
couple of days before that game, Jim Hickey took Maddie
(29:19):
down to al laning Field right down the street and
he was working on PfP with guards away from the
from the trup. First at bat, he was I'm pretty
sure's Coco Cris. He bunted it hard right back to Maddie.
Maddy turns the first and throws a ninety five on
our rocket Carlos at first that we caught it right, Wow,
(29:40):
chest high, unbelievable. You know what, that's stop. That stopped
all the bunny right there. Crazy how one play does that,
But it's it's part of the landscape. And I love
Anthony Rizzo, one of the best throwing first baseman. While
he joiner that I've had Jackie Snow, I've had some
really good throwing first basemen. They are inviable. But it's
part of the landscape. Again, we're talking about where anybody
can play first base these days. I'm not putting Alonso
(30:02):
in that category. I mean, he's a very very good
baseball player overall. But when you got a you got
a guy that can throw first baseman wise, and he's
left handed, which I really love. He could do a
lot of stuff, especially in the old game, with a
lot of bunting. Like we're just talking about us. Rizza
was so good we started crashing that distance between the
mound and first base before everybody caught on to it.
(30:24):
We were like getting pictures bunning right to Riz and
the slot right there were turning double plays because he
threw that one. He wanted to throw, so it's I
felt so bad for him. I was watching his face.
My god, he had to wear that. It's a very
embarrassing moment, and it's a tough moment for a guy
like him. I mean, I hope it does not impact
him moving forward offensively, whatever. But I honestly felt for
(30:45):
the guy because they know hert he's been working.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
It only happened at Yankee Stadium, so I'm sure New
York fans won't remember that play.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Don't forget about that. That's very good.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Another news item, Joe, I'm not sure if you saw
this one. The Texas Rangers signed a high school kid
out of Korea, Sung Young Kim, and they say they're
going to develop him as a two way player. He's
a shortstop and a pitcher. He is six foot two,
one hundred and eighty five pounds. He throws mid nineties
about ninety five mile hour fastball right now.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
So I like the idea. I mean the idea that.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
There's going to be another show. Hey, oh, Tony's just ridiculous.
It's not going to happen. We're not going to see that.
But why not take a guy for as long as
you can anyway. And he's probably more of a pitcher
right now, the scouts say than he is a hitter.
But he's got enough ability on both sides of the
baseball that, you know, being this young, why not, whether
it's extended spring training, rookie ball, what have you.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I'm all about this, Joe. I like it.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I think when you rule things out and to borrow
your phrase, you know, don't get in the way of greatness,
you know, don't put governors on people until you have to.
And I think if you're talking about a high school
player who's got the ability to do two different things,
I don't know yet at the major league level, but
I like the idea the Rangers are thinking this way.
And maybe this is also we're seeing a generation now
who sees Show Hey and say I want to do that.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
And let's face it, you had Show.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Hey with the Angels, and the reason he's a two
way player was because he wanted to do that, right,
That's the reason why he came over here, So why
take it away? So listen, I'm not saying this guy
is gonna be the next show he Oh, Tony, but
I applaud the Rangers for giving him the opportunity to
be a two way player.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Absolutely, the shortstop thing is he's gonna get if he's
going to pitch and play short stuff, that ain't gonna happen.
I don't think that's that's hard on the arm. Man,
it would have to be like a different position because
he's not unless he really starts banging it. He's not
a DH type. It doesn't sound like yet. I don't
know how well he runs, but it might be more
of an outfield kind of a situation, kind of a
big guy. Could even be first base possibly, which would
(32:46):
make more sense. But the shortstop pitcher combo, that's like
being in high school. And you know, I distinctly remember
doing those two things, and the day after I would
pitch and I had to play short stop, I would
open my buttons on my shirt so I could hold
him my pitching arm, my right arm in there like
a sling because it hurts so much, I mean, so
I didn't want it just to drop down by my side.
So it takes days for that to truly recover to
(33:09):
the point where you could play a position like shortstop.
So I think that'll change. But I'm with you, man,
go for it. Think it's interesting, and that's one of
those things that can you put that out there if
you're looking to allure young players. It's of course it's
a very very very very small percentage that may do that,
but nevertheless, it's kind of a something unique that really
draws eyeballs towards it. And you know, see why the Rangers,
(33:31):
I'm good with all that. Good for them, and let's
see what happens it all works out.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yeah, what do you think about the idea of maybe
second base and pitching. You make a good point about
playing shortstop. You know, I've talked with sports orthopedis to say,
you know, all these kids, and a lot of them
do because they tend to be the best players, best athletes,
they pitch and play shortstop growing up and on travel teams,
and a lot of orthopedias recommend against that. Like even
catching and pitching, which some kids do as well, is rough.
(33:57):
You know, they'd rather see you in the outfield or
especially at first base. So doing it professionally it's got
to be, you know, ten times hard. But what about
the possibility of playing second base and pitching?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Still too demanding?
Speaker 3 (34:09):
I think, so I do there's you know the throw
is in as long. From that perspective, I'm thinking about
turning double plays. I'm thinking about cutoff and relays right now.
Although the relay doesn't happen as often the turning of
the double play. Throwing across your body or against you know,
hitting the bag and then propelling yourself towards for a space,
there's a lot going on there. I think that wherever
(34:31):
you can put the minimal number of throws, like if
he's in right field on a nightly basis, just as
let's say left the right field, minimize the number of
throws you have in between innings playing catch, and then
even during the course of the game. I thought that
even having like a showy out there, what you do
is you really have your cutoff guys, go out there farther,
really try to decrease the length of throw has to be,
(34:51):
and I would discourage him from throwing the home plate,
even unless it's like the absolute when you run at
the end of the game, something we did with the Rays.
A couple of years ago, zim Don Zimill pointed out
to me Paul Richards, when he managed the White Sox
in the fifty a very bright manager insisted that is
outfielders never threw the ball at home always showed the
ball a second base, keep the double play in order
because of the infrequency of the guys being thrown out
(35:13):
at home plate. Maybe in Boston you might change that
a little bit with the short left field. But that
was kind of an interesting concept. Is that what we did.
We didn't have really good outfield arms. We just got
the ball through back to second, got the ball through
the ball back to second unless was the game winner
and you had to go to the plate. So there's
ways to mitigate it. The number of throws in the outfield.
They know it's a longer throw, but like I said,
you try to shorten things up, and these are the
(35:35):
things you can work on. So for me, I'd prefer
even I would prefer an outfield position over any infield position,
including first space.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Good stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Joe, Hey, I want to get your opinion on a
major change that was made at the Vatican in the
last couple of weeks that we didn't get a chance
to talk about last week. Yes, we'll do that right
after this on the Book of Joe. Welcome Back to
(36:10):
the Book of Joe podcast Tom Berducci with Joe Madden,
who if I remember correctly, Joe, weren't you once nicknamed Month?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Growing up?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I was? I was Joe Muzzoline. Muzzy was one of
my wide receivers, and because I would never curse, he
would reference refer to me as the month senior? What's
going on? One senior? And Joe muzz had terrible hands.
He's the wide receivers, a doctor, and I saw him
not too long ago. Muzzy hit him right in the chest.
The ball pop up in the air for any anybody
(36:39):
to intercept. Fun guy loved the guy, but he's the
one that dropped the month senior on me.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
So you would hit him in a bad spot the hands.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
Right in the hands like it was supposed to be had,
but hit his chest, go right through the hands, chest
pop up, here we go.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
There'd be a lot of umpires who would be shocked
to hear that nickname Joe knowing.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
You right, I know this and things change over time.
I mean I was, you know, growing up our Lady
of Grace the nuns all the time. My mom would
crack me if I said anything wrong. So I guess
I outgrew all that.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
So yes, the new Pope obviously, I'm alluding to Pope Leo.
He's from Chicago, where he was known as Father Bob.
The most amazing thing, I don't know if you've seen it, Joe,
this video that was unearthed from Game one of the
two thousand and five World Series. Father Bob is sitting
in the stands watching the White Sox win Game one
of the World Series. He looked like he had a
(37:29):
little bit of a nervous look on his face, which
is awesome, which tells you that's a legit fan.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Right Bobby Jenks is on the mound.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
I mean, the idea that the White Sox could win
a World Series game, let alone the series probably still
was beyond comprehension at that point. But man, listen, if
you perform one miracle, you're beautified. If you perform two,
you're eligible for sainthood. This guy now is watched and
oversaw that White Sox win a World Series, and that
became the first American to be elected by the Conclave
(37:58):
as Pope. I mean, those are two huge miracles right
there for Father Bob.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Don't think better than that would if he had been
watching over the twenty sixteen Cubs. I mean, my sisters saying,
Karmy said you could get an audience with the pope
because at the beginning everybody said he was a Cubs fan,
and all of a sudden it switched over to the
White Sox. I lost all my status at the Vatican. Yeah,
I did see that video. It's really cool, man, it's
really interesting to see that. It's so hard for us
(38:24):
to wrap our minds around this because we're from here,
and especially from Chicago, but there's a lot of like
people in different countries where popes have been elected, Like
whether it's in Poland or in Argentina, whatever, everybody comes
from somewhere, right, Everybody comes from and particularly these guys
normally come from pretty humble roots. It's not like you've
were born with the silver spoon in your mouth and
(38:45):
you attended the greatest universities eventually get elected pope. It's
normally something of you know, poverty or some more humble beginning.
So yeah, I like everything about him I'm reading so far,
like his philosophies, I like his the direction he's talking about.
Religion is not supposed to be easy, you know, That's
what I've always thought. And again, I'm a Catholic I practice.
(39:08):
Once in a while, I got to admit I should
be better at it. But to acquiesce to religion all
the time, I've never quite understood that where you're trying
to make it easier for the congregation or followers. Potentially,
it is what it is, and I think that's always
going to approach it. I've always been concerned when the
things I was not supposed to do as a kid
became more tolerable, tolerable as I got older. I was
(39:29):
always concerned with that kind of decision making.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, that's probably true in society, right, we're becoming much
more laxed in terms of what should be allowed or
especially convenient. You know, one of my complaints is a
lot of technology, a lot of innovations have almost all
been on the side of convenience. How can we make
things easier? And easier doesn't always equate to better, right.
(39:52):
We talk a lot about discipline and struggling, and certainly
Pope Leo's one of these people who can attest to that.
I mean, it's from Chicago, yes, but missionary work in Peru.
He seems to belong to the world, you know, multi linguist,
the Peruvian South Americans look at him as one of
their own. Chicago looks at him as one of their own.
I think that's a great thing. And he is speaking
the message of peace right off the bat which, my goodness,
(40:14):
do we need that in the world today. So yeah,
like you, I like everything that I've heard about him.
He seems like he's just taking the baton from Francis
and running with it in terms of humility, making sure
the underserved are better served.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
So all good signs. Maybe not for the White Sox yet,
but maybe in time.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, that's interesting. I'm curious as he settles into his
role there if there's going to be more recognition or
commentary about the White Sox, especially if they begin to ascend.
That'd be kind of interesting to see. I guess, well,
that's two great white Sox fans. Obama, that's right. President
Obama was a big white Sox fan. I went to
England one off season while Obama was president. You walk
(40:55):
into these big department stores in London. There's white Sox
here everywhere, and I said, what's oh, Oh, that's right.
Obama is a white Sox fan. So good for the
White Sox. They could use the help right now.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, I meantime that it looks like the Chicago Cubs
are back, Joe. I'm not sure how much you'll be
able to watch them, but offensively, yeah, they're a really.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Good offensive team.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
They've had some injuries on the pitching staff, There's no
question about that. They've survived it well because guys like
Pete Crow Armstrong are just hitting next level Michael Bush,
I mean, up and down the lineup. It seems like
this is a very deep and dangerous lineup. Obviously Kyle
Tucker has made a huge difference there. But now I'd
have to say that, all due respect to Milwaukee and
what they've done, the Cubs are the team to beat
in that division.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Yeah, I mean Saint Louis is making some noise right
now too. I want to see how serious that is.
But I agree, I do watch the Cubs. Armstrong, Crow, i'mstrong,
is really he's got. He's just a life wirey, strong
human being. I mean, he's a throwback kind of a player.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Hey, Joe, let me let me stop you and ask
you about him, because it's a I like this and
I know you're really into your experience as a hitting coach.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Kind of the changes that you can make with hitters.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
The guy was a one sixty nine hitter getting the
bat knocked out of his hands.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Last year.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
He's on an zero for seventeen street. The team goes
to Kansas City and the hitting coach, Dustin Kelly, brings
me into the batting cage and what he was doing
was he was drifting forward as he strove with his
front foot, his hips in his head would follow.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Obviously, you got nothing on the backside.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
You're actually shortening the amount of time you have to
read a baseball when you do that. So they started
with a drill where he picked up the front foot
and he felt the weight on his back side, he
felt loading on the back hip and just hitting balls
off of tee like this, you know, just telling him,
this is the way you need to stay back and
stop this drift that you have. It was just a
drill in the cage. They gave him a day off
(42:48):
to work on that. The next game he decides to
go right into the game with it, and he's absolutely
just killed the ball ever since then. I mean, the
guy's in the top five and slugging in the major leagues.
And like I said, he couldn't. He's getting the bat
knocked out of his hands up until midway through last year.
So let me get your take, Joe on what it
(43:09):
takes for someone to make an adjustment mid season like that.
Obviously he's a great athlete and just to have it
take so quickly.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Well, your explanation, your description is right on the money.
I didn't realize all that had happened. But you're talking
about some classic stuff. What I used to do. I
did this with Dante Boschett. Dante used to be a
big jumper. This is before some of the new contraptions
came out. I used to at Guenautry Park. I got
an extension court and I would wrap it through the
back of the batting cage, the tunnel the turtle and
(43:39):
I haven't put it around his waist and I would
stand behind the batting tunnel as somebody who's throwing a
VP and I would hold him from jumping or drifting
straight ahead. For me, the stride foot is a reach,
it's not a step. So when to really try to
stay behind the ball with your front side, keep your
top pan behind the ball, keep your head behind the ball.
It's kind of a reach with that front foot and
everything stays put. And when you do do that, then
(44:01):
all of a sudden you create like you said, more time,
see the ball longer if you stay behind the ball,
which makes it stronger. But this is an age old
discipline problem where guys want to drift or walk towards
the mound. And like you suggest, it is absolutely true.
The pitch gets faster, pitchers get quicker because you're shortening
up the distance and your head's moving so much. So
that makes all the sense in the world to me.
(44:22):
And what the coach there did, and I one hundred
thousand percent believer in this. You have to create the
right field. Drill work done properly is the d way
to go in regarding to on a daily basis or
when you're attempting to elicit a change. Because until arm
Crawenstrong said I feel it. He didn't know it, but
the moment because he understood what the coach was saying,
(44:43):
I get this, I know you're talking about, do this,
do that. But and then all of a sudden he
takes a swing and all of a sudden, poom, there
it goes, and he says, man, I felt it, And
the coach standing right there, says exactly, that's what we're
trying to get done, and at that point you have
an adjustment that can last. Zobrist. Ben Zobrist in two
thousand and eight was kind of like Peter Armstrong, who's
(45:06):
like the line drive flipping the ball to center field,
groundball kind of stuff. He goes back to Triple A.
I don't know what was Hindu, Steve Henderson, whomever, but
he comes back and my god, the ball's going in
the stands. We go to play Detroit at the end
of the year and Leland Jimmy says, my god, I
love this guy Zobrist because all of a sudden, because
those are pretty big guy power was added to his swing.
(45:29):
Of course, it can be done. Feel is it's all
about field. You has as a coach. You have to
put your your pupil in a position to feel what
you're trying to get across. And like I said, once
you feel it, you know it.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I love these stories, Joe, because you know, a lot
of fans think guys get to the major leagues and
their finished products, and the fact that major league coaches
make a difference, and they make a huge difference, especially
in today's game because guys get there very quickly.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
It just goes to show you a reminder of how
important they are.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
Absolutely, I mean that that's it. I mean, and turn
them loose, turn them loose. I mean, that's just good
old baseball acumen right there, making that adjustment. And that's
the thing, man. I never felt inhibited by anybody within
the organization regarding what to teach and how to teach.
It developed all these kind of drills in the eighties
and the nineties, with velocity at short distances, heavy bats,
(46:20):
all this different stuff. I was never discouraged to try
different things like that, and all I was written like
this hundred page thing on hitting did in the nineteen eighties,
and I still got to dress it up a little bit,
but the one section is about field drills and anything
I try to do an attempt to elicit a change
with Tom Raducci swing, I had to put you into
(46:42):
positions that you felt the difference. So because the moment
you felt the difference and saw the result, now you
know I know him on the right path. But until
you could actually put together the information and feel simultaneously,
we don't have anything yet.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Good stuff, Joe, and it's time for our core of
the day, and you alluded to it early on. It
sounds like we're going full circle back to to the
Baltimore Orioles firing Brandon Hyde.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
We are. This is from Thomas Sowell. The most basic
question is not what is best, but who shall decide
what is best? Decision making? Listen, I've been all about
it the best organizations for years. They always work well
from the top down ownership. It always starts there, and
then you get to a front office and who is
who are the decision making the scouting? Scouting and player
(47:29):
development still the heartbeat of any organization. And whose eyes
are we relying on here? Now? I know in today's
world it's a lot of data driven stuff, and I
am all for that. I want absolutely thousand percent. I
always wanted that stuff. But I also like real eyes
on these human beings also, and then also within the
(47:50):
eyes the conversation what makes this guy tech? Like? You're
talking about the Oriols a minute ago, and we're talking
about I wrote it down here because I mean, you
never questioned anybody's heart, But where's their competitive nature? They
all seem to all of a sudden simultaneously become lethargic,
or they've they've lost this kind of a thing because
they're struggling a little bit. That bothers me. So that
(48:10):
was number one of the most basic question is not
what is best, but who shall decide what is best?
I've always believed in that last point, not to decide
is is also a decision in a baseball game. As
a manager, I would always try to attempt to portray
that after a game when I was asked about you know,
different things happen in the game when you decide not
(48:32):
to do something. Nobody knows that, right, because the only
decisions we recognize are ones where you actually pull a trigger.
You know, you got out there and you make a move,
whether it's a pitching move or maybe move your defense around.
That's obvious. But you also ruminate over things and then
you decide not to do anything. And that's very powerful too,
that people never know when you make a decision to
not react or act, and those are also important. And
(48:55):
again I'm going to go back to cash. Brian Cash,
whan I thought he did a great job when they
were at two games over five hundred a couple of
years ago, and he decided to go a different route,
and that was to stay with a pat hand and
go internal and let's make this thing work from within.
I love that. I even told him that. I told
him how what a great job I thought he did
(49:17):
putting that back together. So not to decide to not
do something is also a decision.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Good stuff, Joe. We will meet again next week and.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Hopefully we don't have another manager fire to talk about.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
I hope not, Tony. Thanks buddy.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
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