August 26, 2025 • 46 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci welcome longtime sportswriter and NY Times best selling author Jane Leavy to discuss her latest book, 'Make Me Commissioner' (available Sept. 9th). Tom looks at some of the ideas and suggestions that Jane has for MLB. Jane notes the lack of true superstars in the game and the ways that the game needs to draw young fans. What does the future hold for MLB and how can the game evolve while maintaining its history? Plus, we get 'A Reading from The Book of Joe'!
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey Eric, Welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
To the Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Verducci,
and of course Joe Madden. Joe, I know you are
a closet bibliophile. I know, back in the day, ravenous
appetite for reading books, going back to Pat Conroy, Kurt Vonnegut,
names Missioner, and Joe. I also know it's kind of
(00:36):
like eating your fruits and vegetables and getting more sleep, right,
we sometimes need to be prodded to do more of
book reading.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
So where are you on your book reading quests.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'm horrible. I'm absolutely horrible, and I'll tell you why.
I mean, I think I figured it out. There's just
so much other stuff to read constantly. I'm always reading.
I missed not reading novels, and I don't like me
for that. I'm not acquiescing to anything here.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
I did.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
I used to read at least the book every two weeks,
and that was started in nineteen seventy seven on a
bus Uncle Chuck Gamey a missioner's centennial and it just
kept going, I mean.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
For years, and it was wonderful, and I.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Really believe I don't know, I believe a lot of
what I think and how I think was absolutely influenced
by all these different wonderful authors, different genres. I really
liked the historic fiction a lot. I did read some biographies,
obviously of Colin Pale's. Among my favorite favorite author of
all time for me is Pat Conroy.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
I really like ken Fallt too.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
I mean I could go on and on about this
Leon Yours with Exodus and the Hades. I mean, he
really opened my eyes. And Greg Aisles with his stuff
about World War Two. It was good stuff, man. But
I'm disappointed in myself. It's just the way the world
works today. Like I'll get up in the morning and
I look on videos. Right, I'm looking at MLV videos
from yesterday. I want to see what happened. And then
(01:52):
I go to YouTube just to catch up on news.
And I watched the news, and then I'll watch golf swings.
I mean, it's just they made it too easy. It's
like the new method of reading is watching a video,
and I'm not proud of it at all.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Well, I've got something to get you back. Let's call
it in reading shape. It's like getting back on the treadmill. Okay, Okay,
we've got here a special guest. She's Jane Levy, and
she wrote a book that's just out.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Make me Commissioner. I love the title here.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I Know What's wrong with baseball and how to fix it.
Jane has written, I mean, so many New York Times bestsellers.
He's written great biographies on Sandy Kofax, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth,
and Mount Rushmore of baseball practically, and we are absolutely
thrilled to have Jane with us. Jane, congratulations on the book.
(02:41):
How you doing these Days?
Speaker 5 (02:42):
It was a four year slought. You guys know what
this is like?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
You written together.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
I love your book together. Just started out. This is
not a book I wanted to write. I thought I
was going to find another guy to put up on
my Mount Rushmore. And when I sat down to look,
I have two rules. One never do a book that
a friend has done good better indifferent to do a
book or biography that you don't think you can improve.
(03:07):
So I started looking around to see what major league
figure was begging to have a life story told. And
the truth of the matter is in modern baseball. And
one thing I will change is to figure out how
to start making stars again. Babe Ruth would be rolling
over in his grave to know how few of the
(03:28):
current echelon of major leaguers rank in the top of
hits and clicks and money earned and outside income. There
just doesn't seem to be an urgency to reduce those
kinds of stars and to require them to do the
kinds of things that help you become a star.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
That's interesting, Jane, I was wondering about where this book
came from the idea of it, and is the course
of reporting this book, what did you find where some
of the more unexpected revelations you mentioned the lack of
true star players, especially as compared to some of the
other major sports these days. What else really surprised you
(04:07):
in the course of reporting this out.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Well, I think the thing probably surprised and appalled, I
mean most was the well two things, the sheer numbers
of shredded arms major league and minor league arms, and
distinct deterioration of the Black American population of players in
the system, and how that was allowed to deteriorate from
(04:34):
an industry where they could brag every April fifteenth, It's
Jackie Robinson Day, and go from close to twenty percent
of all major leaguers being African American black or down
to six and they put money into it recently and
that some total improvement for last year was zero point
three percent.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I mean, I got something on your first part of that, Jane,
and Tom hears me banging on this all the time.
You're talking about the lack of legitimate stars and the
the fans being able to really hold on to and
somebody you really want to write about, And honestly, I
don't know. For me, it's about the last twenty years
is when the genesis of it and I was at
(05:14):
the beginning of it also, And I might probably culpable
a little bit, but I really believe analytically analytics kind
of prevents greatness. The way that the analytical world has
taken over. Everybody's become the same, everybody's after the same player,
everybody wants to develop the player the same way, and
a lot of the same This is a lack of
baseball grabitas experience guys that have done it before.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
It's based on more.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
You're talking about velocity, you're talking about shredded arms, you're
talking about home runs, hit the ball with the wall,
but strikeouts are okay and try to get a walk. Defense.
It's okay if we would like to play good defense,
but if we don't, it's fine, and they have to
actually change rules to put base running or base stealing
back in the game. So I just the phrase. I
use it to stay out of the way of greatness.
And I think, in my mind's eye, analytics is really
(05:59):
it kind of it does. It gets in a way
of people becoming great because there's a lot of restrictor
plays but on them, there's a lot of that. It's
just the fact that guys aren't just turned loose to
be themselves. They're always being influenced by data, numbers, technology,
which always lacks emotion and always lacks character. It's just
it's just very sterile and generic. So that's my part
(06:20):
about it. That's the part that I find interference. That
that's where inference is occurring. And I believe from my perspective,
if you want to get back to greatness and people
that are really attractive to watch and can become Hall
of Fame potential or people you want to write about,
I would let them be themselves a little bit more
in regards to developmentally, not just so much again, they
(06:43):
throw a pitch in a bullpen. Look at this on
the iPad. Hitters in the in the immediately look up
and see what their exovelocity was after they've lined out
all This kind of stuff, to me is superfluous and
it's not really a necessary as part of our game.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
I spend a lot of time with a woman who
created the MIT Sports Analytics Lab. So she's not somebody
who hates analytics. She makes makes her living and she's
brilliant at her doing this stuff. Their name is Peco Hassai,
and she's in the weeds, but it's fascinating, she said.
The people who are creating these algorithms these days are
(07:20):
people who are very good at algorithms, but they don't
have what in that world is called domain knowledge, and
that means what's happening on a field and having seen
it before. And more scary than that is that they
don't feel you need to have domain knowledge in order
to create a metric that might be useful to not supplant,
(07:45):
but increase a manager's ability to manage. If you can
use them, you know, in conjunction with your eyes and
your ears and your wit and your wisdom, great so
be it. But that's not how they're used. And as
Joe and I have talked about this, you know, analytics
can tell you what's going to happen nine times out
of ten, and if you make those decisions always based
(08:07):
on nine times out of ten, then you miss the
one time where it's different, where the wind changes, or luck,
luck comes and descends upon your shoulders, or fate intervenes.
You're Roger Davis, you know, and you're you're not supposed
to hit that home run in twenty sixteen? Was he? Joe?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I mean, and of course not there he was, and
he did it.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
And Joe Torre said, and you don't know he can
do it. He's the last guy you're going to send
up in any.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Other professional Well, what I love about this book, Jane,
what I love about any book.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Really, it's a good book.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It really makes you think, you know, it's it should
be to me an interactive experience, not just a passive experience.
And you've done that with this book. And I actually
think you mentioned the human element a lot. I think
that's a thread here in this book, and it actually
made me think about how we connect to one another,
not just to baseball right. I mean, we live in
(09:04):
a world now in which if you're a middle school
English teacher you have to figure out whether your students
are using AI to write their essay rather than doing
their own thinking.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
I mean, that's the world we live in.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And there is this pursuit of perfection in baseball when
you just eloquently stated the fact that we love sports
because of what's unexpected. So I think what you're doing
here is you're kind of getting the pulse of how
we are connecting to baseball as fans. And is that
something that going forward that Major League Baseball actually should
(09:37):
be worried about because a lot of baseball now is
attracting people based on, let's face it, gambling and the
fact that going to a baseball game is not so
much about the game as it is a social event
and the happenings that are going on with light shows
and music and what have you. So the long way
of asking you, Jane, about going forward here, is this
(09:57):
good or should baseball be concerned about how people are
connecting to the game in a very different way?
Speaker 5 (10:03):
Well? Absolutely absolutely, Because most people these days go once
maybe twice a year. Somebody gets them tickets, somebody has
a suite whatever. It doesn't have to do with either
an allegiance to a team a player. What's happened is
when when analytics Joe says this so well, and when
analytics conspire against allowing for those possibilities, you preclude them
(10:27):
from happening. When is the next time you think we're
going to see a perfect game? And you know, Joe
brought up with me to the Snell example when Cash
took him out, and you know the World Series, and
what about when Clayton Kershaw was taken out when he
was two innings away, you know, six outs away from
a perfect game in his first appearance in twenty twenty two.
(10:49):
I talked to Dave Roberts about it. I don't think
he can say how much he regrets it, but he
does regret it. If somebody is going to do the impossible,
it was gonna be Clayton Curshell on that day. And
wouldn't a headline that had said and Kershaw of the
greatest left I think it was October first, something like that,
and after coming off an arm injury, goes out in
(11:11):
Minnesota in his first outing and throws a perfect game.
If that was the story, rather than Clainton Krushell when
seven innings and was perfect and came out, because that
was the prudy, analytically prudey thing to do. That's the
reason to go to the ballpark.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Jane actually not just puts her finger on the pulse
of these things. She comes up with solutions and ideas.
For instance, you mentioned the perfect game. Jane, she's got
an idea. This is pretty good. And I know, Joe
you don't like giving managers rules to work with, but
sometimes we have to legislate things because you leave people
to their own devices in this game, and it may
never get back to where it should be. If a
(11:46):
manager takes a starting pitcher out with a perfect game
intact through seven innings, you lose your challenge for the
next ten days.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I saw that that's outsteading.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
That'll make you think right now, That'll make the front
office think right there.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
That's what I'm trying to do.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
It's not even about making the manager thing, because all
these things, Jane are really they're being controlled from above.
And you know that Tommy knows that, I know that
everybody knows that it's not managers making decisions like this,
it's front offices. I've been through situations, and I classically
use the time with Jake Arietta in our big year
with the Cubbies where we're beating the Minnesota Twins.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Late in the game it ended up being ate nothing.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
It had been a close game, all of a sudden
it say nothing and Jacobs cruising. And I had the
experience in the minor leagues of seeing young pitchers throw
complete game shutouts and how it changed the way they
thought about themselves and it altered their their trajectory moving forward.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
So that was an experience for me.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
So I let him go and he threw right aroun
one hundred and twenty pitches, complete games, shutout, and after
that he just zoomed. He just took off after that,
And I was kind of criticized by the front office
because I permitted that to happen, and then I gave
them the explanation I just gave you, and then you
just alluded to that earlier where the people that are
(13:00):
doing these things are making these calls really have no
experience in the field and have no thought or idea,
and there's nothing in the algorithms, nothing in the matrices
that covers the human element. What they feel, how they're there,
their heart, they're got their brain sores after being accomplished
in these moments, and how it's going to benefit you
down the road. All they think about is injury. They
(13:22):
don't think about the potential positive outcome. And that's the
part that frustrates me.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
Didn't you tell me that you used to have a
preseason no hitter meeting. You'd be better to explain it
and where it came from than I. But I made
sure to put that in because I thought it was brilliant.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Well, actually THEO brought that to my attention and we did.
And that's from then on I started to do it.
And I give him credit for it because Steel has
even though he had never played whatever, but he has
a pretty good pulse on what's going on.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
And so we had a meeting.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
And the guys knew that if you have a potential
no hitter, if you have a no hitter going, I'm
going to stay out of the way.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Now, there's got to be I to some extent.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Maybe a limit, because I remember when Edwin Jackson did
it to us with the Raizy. He's almost one hundred
and fifty pitch walk seven or eight guys at the
Tropic Canada field and still ended up with a no hitter,
and I think that kind of did bother him afterwards physically. However,
that's the anomaly. I think, Yes, you talk to the guys,
you know, okay, after that, the next start, you may
(14:20):
be pushed back a day, maybe pushed back two days.
But we're not going to get in the way of
this accomplishment for you, your resume, your family, your mom,
your dad, and your grandkids down the road. So these
are the things aren't even considered anymore. Although the lure
and all the allure that we had experienced growing up
looking at the back of a baseball card or waiting
till the next day to read the box score, that's
(14:42):
not considered important anymore.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
And I disagree with that completely.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
You're right, all these guys should be given these opportunities
to do this kind of thing. And that's why I
think it's vital to have these kind of meetings in
camp because it's actually it's independent if any analytical component,
which I think needs to be curbed quite frankly, that's
another subject, but that's what we did.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
You have to have some situational dexterity, and that is
what is missing. Once the decision is made before the
game or manager is told a guy can only go
so many the unis or you can you can't use
them today, or whatever it is. You have to be
able to say, wait a minute, this is Clayton crucial,
(15:24):
this is the guy who's done everything else, or it's Ariata.
You know, how is this going to change his trajectory
as a pitcher and as a human being.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
There's a lot of choreography done before the game, as
you know, there's it's all about its choreographed, and the
dexterity is you.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Got to be You better be right.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
If you're going to be incorporate dexterity at all, you
better be right because otherwise it's really going to not
work in your favor as the manager of The games
are so scripted today to me, you know, the large
sample size is the large sample size, and the small
sample size is your experience.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
So all these these.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Menumbers that are compiled are compiled through the course of
over a year, maybe two years. Good, they're going to
repeat themselves often. But you know what, it's not often
that reality matches up with this thought. This this matrix
whatever reality and actual and what happens for sure before
the game, which you lay out as your plan does
not always meet reality. So you have to maintain dexterity
(16:19):
in the moment, and that is your experience. That's where
it's at, and that's where they don't want.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
They don't want experience.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
They want more controllable situations that they want to do
before the game, but not allowing for the fact that
when the game begins a lot of times that stuff
just gets blown up.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, you're talking about those blink moments right right out,
when you respond to something in the moment. Absolutely, And
another one of your ideas I really like involved kids,
because even Major League Baseball's own research shows that if
you want a fan for life of the game of baseball,
you need to reach them in those magic years I
call magic years between say eight and twelve. And if
(16:56):
you get a young person out to the ballpark even
one game a year, that has a tremendous impact and
whether that person is going to be a lifelong fan
and then pass on that love of baseball to.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Their own kids. And you came up with a great idea.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Every night we look and listen the average attendants in
the big leagues is about twenty nine thousand and thirty thousand.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
There's a lot more seats that do not get used.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Why not make sure that kids can get in free
as long as they're accompanied by an adult? I guess,
And you bring up an example where if you gave
a kid a free ticket, give them a hot dog
in a soda, ice cream, maybe a cap and Joe
Madden can speak to how important it is as a
kid to have had of your favorite team. And you
can bring up the example that Chicago Cubs had done that.
(17:42):
It would cost them four million dollars, which sounds like
a lot, but at the same time, they were paying
Jason Hayward twenty one million dollars not to play for
them to play for the Los Angeles Dodgers. Is this
really a doable thing for baseball and for individual teams
to do to give away these tickets to young people.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
Give a kid tenant on a free ticket, Grandpa page,
Grandpa's going to spoil the kid. He's gonna tell them
the stories. He's going to take him by a hand
and make him a baseball fan for life. And that's
what they need more than anything else, Right, now good stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Jane.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Hey, listen, there's a lot more I want to get
into about this book. There is so much is such
a rich book full of great ideas. Again, it really
makes you think whether you're a fan of the game
or maybe you're starting to turn off on the game,
there's many reasons to dive into this book. We will
continue our conversation with Jane leeby make Me Commissioner. I
know what's wrong with baseball and how to fix it.
We'll do that right after this quick break. Welcome back
(18:50):
to the Book of Joe podcast, joined by Jane Levy
In a great book, Make Me Commissioner. Jane, I'm gonna
play Devil's advocate right here, because a lot of people
in Major League Baseball now I'm talking about in the
Commissioner's office look at some of the numbers here and
they say, hey, we don't need fixing, right. I mean,
let's face it, a lot of businesses these days judge
themselves by television ratings.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Last year, baseball was lucky enough.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
To get sho Heyo Tani and Aaron Judge in the
World Series Yankees and Dodgers, and it was the highest
rated World Series since twenty seventeen. This year, Major League
Baseball on Fox is up ten percent. On ESPN, it's
up twenty two percent on TBS, it's up sixteen percent,
including sixty nine percent in the eighteenth to thirty four demographic.
The Major League Baseball Network Showcase games, which I do,
(19:36):
up thirteen percent, thirteen percent in the eighteenth to thirty
four demographics.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
All double digit growth this year.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
I'm not sure whether everybody's cribbing off of last year's
World Series, whether this is completely the Otani effect, But
you tell me, how do you interpret the increased viewership
numbers for Major League Baseball this season compared to what
the trend has been in this game.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Well, first of all, yet you need to know not
just the percentages, have to know how many people that
actually is. Like last year, they were touting the findings
of the annual Aspen State of Play game, which showed that,
oh wow, there were seventeen point nine million playing baseball,
and then when he went to the fine print, you
found out, well, yes there were, but of those seventeen
(20:18):
point nine million people, give or take nine million, were
people who played once between once and thirteen times a year.
In other words, you go to the company picnic and
you pick up a glove, are your hamstring and that
counts as playing baseball. Yes, I commend them for the increases.
That's great, but look at the fine print and what
(20:40):
it is. The same week that the Bananas were signed
by ESPN, major League Baseball lost. It's five hundred It's
five hundred million, right a year contract with ESPN. They
have a real problem with the television and we all
know it. It's hard to find the games. They've splintered
(21:01):
where the games appear so many different ways, a lot
of people can't find them. So, you know, make baseball
find a ball. Yes, split it up, take advantage of
streaming and game day and all that stuff, but consider
what it means to sit down and say I want
to find a game. I'm up here. I couldn't watch
(21:22):
the Red Sox and Yankees, and I'm in Cape Cod,
Massachusetts because of blackouts. I own every kind of package
except nessen, So because I didn't have nesson, I couldn't
watch the game.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
I even tried.
Speaker 5 (21:35):
Computer mirroring, couldn't do it. If you're a regular person
and I'm not very regular, you know, and you come
and you want to watch that game and you can't
you're going to be turned off for life. And they
have made some significant gains, Tom, There's no doubt about it,
and I applaud them for that. I just think, you know,
the long term TRUG dectory needs some pimping, as it were.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Tomy, let me ask you this.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
I mean, do they have when they make these kind
of claims, because these stats could always be pipulated, just
like Jane suggesting, do they at least attach it to
why they think that's happening? What are the drivers in
this situation?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Well, I do think they've They've done a really good
job in terms of national games, having scheduled the big
rivalry games tend to be on weekends. Fox picks up
those games. A lot of this is driven by the
New York and Los Angeles markets. I mean, we're going
to talk next, Jane about the economic system, where let's
face it, it's.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Such a great system.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Put it this way that no other sport would want
to copy the economic system baseball has.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
But it's very top heavy. At baseball.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
You have these national draw teams and starting with the
Yankees and the Dodgers, but you just can't put any
baseball game out there, and I think they've done a
good job making sure they get these bigger games on
weekends in prime time.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
And there's also the international element.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
I mean, we.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Cannot underestimate the Otani effect on Major League Baseball. To
borrow from one of Jane's favorites, he is our babe, Ruth.
I mean last year, the first two games of the
World Series, the games were on at nine AM in Japan,
and more people watched the World Series those first two
games in Japan than here in prime time in the
United States. It's crazy. Netflix is getting into baseball. Yeat Netflix,
(23:17):
because they got the rights to the WBC Japan telecast
next year. They get so many people watching those games.
So I think the international element also is taking off here.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
So you've mentioned everything, but you have not mentioned the
changes made to the game as being a driver to
any of this.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I mean, well it is, there's no question, and I
want Jane to speak to this because in the course
of you know, digging into all these topics here, Jane,
you saw the game change with the pitch timer. Major
League Baseball has taken out twenty six minutes of nothingness
out of their products. I mean, as I like to say,
that's better than Ozembic getting rid of the fat, because
(23:53):
the game went from three hours and six minutes to
two hours and forty minutes. And it wasn't like they
took out a lot of offense. It's the same amount
off In fact, hits are actually down slightly, but it's
happening a lot faster. The worst thing being said about
baseball was said for an entire generation, and that is
that it's too slow.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
That narrative is gone, it's been removed.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
The game does move more quickly, and I gotta believe Jane,
and you've talked to players, managers and fans about this.
That has to be a big driver in terms of
the game's popularity.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
It was by far the best change they made. Other
than Joe might disagree with me about this, getting rid
of the shift absolutely was necessary. Should be done a
decade earlier. At least. You know, I had all these friends,
what you guys do too baseball? People said, well, nothing happens,
and it turned out finally they were right. It is
harder for baseball to make changes without people being outraged,
(24:53):
and without them sitting there saying, oh, we're doing pretty good.
We don't have to change anything, and so they didn't
for decades, and it was, to say the least belated.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I'm with you on this ship.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
By the way, Jane, Joe, how you feel about it,
I think a much better game.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
The shift's still there, it's not gone. I watch where
the shortstop plays. He plays one step on the but
he can still cover on the other side.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
See.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
I get that the shift's not there, but I don't
think it's as impactful. You just said hits are down
and offense is not generally up, so I don't think
it's as impactful as people think it is.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
I do agree with Jane.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
The clock is a superstar, absolutely is the superstar of
the changes, and I think that's that's what I was
driving up before when asked you if there's any other
driver's Tommy regarding the shift and people wanting to watch
the games quicker, I totally agree with that. I love
the PitchCom calling pitches a great idea. The parts and
Jane that I don't like is whenever they impact strategy,
(25:48):
they should not interfere with a batter, minimum run around
second base, throw overs the first base. As long as
you have the clock. Those things aren't necessary anymore. I
don't think so. I would love to see because what
happens is now with all these other changes in the
fact that really further ittigates the power of the manager.
The manager has to have even less experience based on
(26:09):
what he's able or not able to do during the
course of the game, where if you have some experience,
if you do know, if you could just see things
in advance a little bit further than these of these
changes mitigate that experience, whether it's a three better minimum,
you know, throwing over the first base which was in
a pitch out, stealing bases, starting runner at second base,
a lot of things are already control at that point.
(26:30):
So that's that really further creates more control for the
front offices and less in the dugout.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Jane, I'm wondering how you consume baseball has changed if
it has.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
You mentioned me, and I.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Think a lot of people are frustrated by some of
the archaic blackout rules major League Baseball has, where sometimes
it's literally just hard to find a game that you want.
You know, it's like a restaurant closing its doors. If
you customers are looking for you, you're not looking for them.
How has it changed for you in terms of consuming baseball?
Speaker 5 (27:01):
Well, I just pay through the nose for every package
you could. I love you, I spend the month. But
can I go back to the ghost runner thing? Because
I hate it. I mean, anybody who's watched Judge or
Stanton try to go small ball in the tenth inning
knows that it's a disaster where teams and players are
(27:21):
turning themselves inside out to not be who they are.
And what's more, it's not real baseball.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
So, Jane, there's one thing we love to do with
the guests on our show, and that is to play
a game we call a reading from the Book of Joe.
We like to think that in our book, the Book
of Joe, it's three hundred and sixty five pages that
you'll basically find something interesting on any page. So we
let our guests pick a number between one and three
(27:50):
hundred and sixty five and we'll go to that page
and see what we find. So the choice is yours.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Here.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You get to pick any number between one and three
sixty five and we'll.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
See what we have.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Page one.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
That's a first.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
That's right, that is a first. It's number one.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
You got to get your lead out there.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Man. Yeah, well, this is a good place to start,
because we love to talk about the struggle on this show.
I mean, a big part of your book, I believe
is not just the pursuit of perfection, but finding hacks
and shortcuts to try to get there in this world.
And we love to emphasize the struggle of what it takes.
Anybody's written a book understands that what that's about. So
(28:30):
I'll start at the top of page one. Quitting is
the easy way. Joe Madden heard it cyn Call. In
the spring of nineteen ninety one. After fifteen years of
service in the minor league system of the California Angels
as a player, a scout, manager, and instructor, Madden.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Was done with the organization.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
If you have to list an official cause for the disillusionment,
it would have been easy to sum up in one word, disrespect.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
This must bring back some memory.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
You open up a scar here eighteen ninety one when
you went through some soul searching. I guess for you
who loves baseball, So explain Jane and our audience about
that moment.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
I'm bleeding right now.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Yeah, that was a situation where I was passed over
for a job, first base coaching job by the Angels.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Doug Grater was the manager.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Gave it to my buddy Jeter Hines, who I dearly
love and was great, was a great coach, great instructor. However,
I really had been in charge of pretty much all
the programs developed into minor leagues from nineteen eighty four
to that moment, hitting instructor, based, running instructor, catch instructor,
field coordinator, all this stuff, and had been a manager.
(29:36):
So I really thought it was my job at that point,
I should have had the job. And after all, at
that point it's different than it is today. You had
to earn your way to the big leagues. You had
to touch all the bases basically in order to be
deemed acceptable or ready to be a major league coach.
And so I got passed over, and that really does
the first time, I just wasn't the same person. After that,
(29:59):
I really thought I had been disrespected. I thought it
was wrong. I also learned at that point, if you're
waiting for fairness to exist, you're gonna wait a really
long time, because the word fair doesn't really it's really not.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
It's a word, but it doesn't really mean anything anymore.
So all these.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Things came to my head at that point, and I
stopped being me for a while, a couple months actually,
until I get on an airplane and going to middle
of Texas. This lady sits next to me. We're just
having a conversation that I did not want to have
morning flight Phoenix to Midland, Texas, not in a good mood,
which is rare, and she blurted out the phrase, remember
(30:33):
one thing, whatever you put out there comes back to you.
And wow, that just kicked me right between the eyeballs.
And I got off the plane a different human. And
the point is going through all these different struggles, which
I really think is important, and nobody, I don't know
how many folks today really understand what that does for you.
So anyway, I went through all that, was really upset,
(30:55):
wanted to leave the angels, carrying it on through into
the season. The lady says that to me on an airplane. Seriously,
it kind of like changed my life from that point
till today. I mean, whenever I get word it out
by stuff I think about that, don't underestimate the struggle
and don't underestimate the power of the correct words in
the right moment that could really attitude is a decision,
and it did change my mindset from that moment on.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Whatever you put out there comes back to you. I
just love that.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
And Jane, it makes me think, this is such a
far reaching book, with so many important elements to it.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
How did you decide how to begin?
Speaker 5 (31:30):
Well? I started the same day, believe it or not,
that THEO started to come up with his ideas for
how to fix the game. So I thought I was
writing one book during twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two,
it only feels like nineteen twenty one, and happy to
switch it and re report the book starting in twenty
twenty three to see how the rules had helped and
(31:53):
whether it was sufficient or whether more needed to be done.
And so I traveled all over the country at every
kind of different baseball I could find. And I had
the privilege of being old enough at this point to
just say I don't need to talk to people I
don't want to talk to. So I had the privilege
of talking to smart guys. I didn't want to talk
to all the people expected you know, characters. I wanted
(32:16):
to talk to people I liked and people I thought
would be honest. And to Joe's point, one of the
guys I spent a lot of time with was Dusty,
who maybe was the most human human in the game
at the time. And I asked him because I said,
I said, what is this thing about the human element?
Suddenly I hear every word the human element, the human element.
(32:37):
And I listed all the guys who had used that phrase.
I guess I'd pick it up. It's now, you know,
dugout shatter and I said, well, what is this and
he said the best I mean, this made be the
best quote in the entire book. He said, I said,
what happened to empiricism on the diamond? And first of all,
I was glad you do the word, But second of
(32:59):
all his quote was fabulous. He said, it means nothing, Jane.
It's unbelievable. They try to sell me some bs and
I'm saying, that ain't what my eyes are telling me.
And their next comment was, your eyes will lie to you.
And if you had to sum up what's wrong, that's
(33:19):
a pretty good summation. And the profound disrespect for wisdom
and experience isn't just in baseball, though, that's our topic.
It's throughout our society. Look at how many scientists have
been canned who've been studying cancer for decades. We don't
seem to remember that wisdom and experience matter, maybe more
(33:44):
than anything else.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Well said Jane, it's an important book. We congratulate you.
Wish you nothing but success with this book. It's make
me Commissioner. I Know what's wrong with baseball and how
to fix it? Published by Grand Central Publishing. It's out
September the ninth. And you may agree wholeheartedly with Jane.
You may agree with Jane, but one thing this book
(34:06):
will do is it will make you think.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
And thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Jane, Thank you, Thanks Jane. Great to see you and
hear you again.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
That was Jane Leevy. We thank her for her time and.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Look forward to the publication of a really important baseball book.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Hey, we're not done yet here on the Book of Joe.
We get back.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
We'll wrap things up right after this. Welcome back to
the Book of Joe podcast Joe. It's an interesting book.
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
How you know.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Jane started this years ago, as she explained, and a
lot has changed in the game since then, mostly the
pitch timer changing, the game. I happen to think the
game is on a really good trajectory right now. But
I do think her points about the human element of
the game still apply. And I think all of us
have to look at, you know, baseball sort of as
(35:03):
a proxy as to what's happening in our in our
culture anyway, in terms of the search for perfection, the
amount of faith we put in technology and in this case, analytics.
As I said, Joe, I think this book will make
you think. You may not agree with a lot of things,
but we really have to start doing some critical thinking
about some of these issues.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
I'm most of everything she talked about, I think I'm
kind of in agreement with except the shift with you, Yeah,
there's the human elements being subtracted. Absolutely, we listen everything
we just talked about. Everything she's talking about, we've been
talking about on this show for months, years, almost a
couple of years right now. So I cannot agree with
(35:44):
her more. And when it comes down to perfection. And
actually one of her quilight quotes Tori on analytics, they're
trying to make an imperfect game perfect, and I.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
Resent that, said Joe. That's the thing.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
I mean, I do believe a lot of this for me,
The perfection part of it is analytics and gambling. Those
are the two elements that are driving the need for perfection.
And when you when you're talking about perfection, of course
you're not talking about reality or real human beings. Is
nobody's perfect. But I've always thought, of course you're you're
seeking perfection.
Speaker 4 (36:15):
On a night lea base.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
But I also believe if you were perfect at this game,
you wouldn't want to do it.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
It would lose it's a lure. If you were that good.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Every night, there'd be nothing to really work for, a
strife for attempt to get better at because you're perfect.
And I don't even know if people understand that, but
I do believe gambling is driving this way too much.
I don't like it at all. You know, I'm even
seeing more recognizable guys and primarily men that are doing
these commercials and I don't like it. I just don't
(36:43):
like it, and I think it really sets the wrong
tone and as simple as that. But anyway, she's right
on with so many different things. Her breakdown, you know,
the we even got to the point of staying out
of the way greatness, and she can't even find the
next guy to write a book about, because she's concerned
it that person doesn't exist. And I think those people
that she's talking about how to individuality about them that
(37:05):
was nurtured just by people not getting in the way.
Like we're talking about seeing out the way greatness, whether
it's a unique batting stance, at the ability to throw
Loan Ryan throwing two hundred pitches in the game and
nobody there to say that you cannot go ahead and
finish your perfect game, Go ahead and finish your finish
your no hitter, go ahead and finish your shutout, all
these different things. Go ahead and hit the ball to
the right field, and they don't hit tread to hit
a home run even with two strikes.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
All this stuff is being.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Driven by those that had never really done it, and
it's being driven by the baseball's version of artificial intelligence
telling us how to play the game, where the computer
the spreadsheet never really did. So there's so much here
to unpack. I agree with her in so many different ways,
and I'm actually looking forward this would be probably the
(37:48):
next book that I do read.
Speaker 5 (37:50):
Well.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Joe, you brought up a really good point with the
betting and the gambling because I think in this case,
what's changed is our and I'm speaking for fans, our
relationship with baseball. Where you're seeing now and this has
happened multiple times this year, where death threats are being
made on social media to Major League Baseball players and
their significant others because they didn't perform well, which meant
(38:12):
that someone had to bet on that game. And now
you're losing money based on player performance. So we are
now treating baseball players not as human beings but as assets,
as stocks that go up or down. And when you're
losing money based on the performance of players, the anger
becomes palpable in terms of how people react. You're not
(38:32):
just disappointed, but now you're taking it personally. That money
is coming out of your pocket. And I think now
the relationship between the fan and the game is not
so much your favorite team or especially how the game
is played, but what's the upside? How much money can
I make on this? What bet should I put on
this game? And I think baseball's got to be really careful.
(38:53):
I understand it's incredibly popular and it's become so ubiquitous
and so easy to do. Again, we live in a
world of convenience now, even betting has become an issue
of convenience, where we've removed all barriers to betting, and
a lot of people who should not be betting are betting,
especially young people, because it is so easy. And I
think it's warped our view of who the players are
(39:15):
and what our connection to the game is.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
Well, you're creating this group of artificial fans.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I mean, everybody's not fans, like you alluded to it
in the we just talked about with Jane.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
But my hat, I get to say those Cardinal.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Hat When I was nine years old and I became
an absolute fan, and I could sell everything about every
Cardinal in the sixty four sixty five that era. Right
after the time I started playing minor league baseball, I
was a legitimate, sincere Cardinals baseball fan. The fans today
are more artificial. I mean, look at the I mean, listen,
uniforms are no longer uniform. Kind of means like the same,
(39:48):
doesn't it. Uniforms are no longer uniform, and there's all
these abominations. I mean, the Savannah bananas have really had
way more influence than anybody wants to admit to in
our game right now, and it's a one time deal.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Listen. I love what they're doing. I think it's great.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
It's the Harlem glow trotters of baseball, and I think
if you get to see them once or twice on
an annual basis, that's plenty. But the color and everything else,
and the bat flips and the historyonics and the celebrations
and all this stuff. It's good for them in their situation.
But I think it's pouring.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
Over into what we're doing here.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
So it's more of a we're creating an artificial fan
and not a sincere fan, and how long is that
going to last? You really truly need to understand and
know the game and respect it. I think to have
this the fans ship be sustained over a period of
time as opposed to being transient.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
That's what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
We're creating artificial fans, and maybe they're getting tabulated in
these wonderful, possibly manipulated numbers in regards to who's watching
and how popular it's become. I'm always aware and I'm
always kind of suspect of those kind of when I
hear those things, and whether it's in baseball, whether I
watch the news at night these polls all the time.
(41:02):
Who's taking the polls? Kind of questions are being asked.
It's very it's dubious to me, and I don't I
don't have a lot of faith after all, look at
the previous elections and how they've turned out after substantially
different information being given to us regarding polls. Like she said,
if there's an eyeball test to it, Dusty talked about it.
I think I am an eyeball guy. I'm a field guy,
(41:22):
but I'm also listening. I do know that sometimes you
can be deceived. I do understand that, but then sometimes
numbers could be deceptive too.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Well, this has been an interesting journey, Joe.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
We've touched on a lot of important macro topics that we.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Could talk about forever.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
But that's going to put some pressure on you to
end this episode of the Book of Joe with something
even more momentous when it comes to our thought of
the day.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
So, mister closer, the ball is yours. It's the ninth inning.
Take us home.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Yeah, it was really.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
I mean, I've kind of figured on all this before
before we talked to Jane today, and I.
Speaker 4 (41:56):
Had like a couple of different things.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
So I'm going to give you like a couple because
it starts with creativity, and that's what's the attempt here,
is to be creative in regards to being.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Creative and then creating kind of a buzz.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
Like Kramer suggested when the Topless Girl came up when
they were vacationing in the Cape Route on the Island.
Creativity is thinking up new things. Innovation is doing new things.
So trying to create a buzz, right, not easy to do.
But creativity is thinking up new things. So there's new
things being thought of, and then innovation is doing new things.
(42:29):
And I actually have you have to say that there
is innovation in baseball. There are not only thinking about
new things, but they're incorporating them and then for better
or for worse, and for how it's being interpreted, it's
out there. So I give d give credit because listen,
that's been my whole existence in professional baseball. My existence
period is always trying to be creative and trying to
(42:52):
get an edge, create an edge based on what everybody
else is doing.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
The zigging and the zagging.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
I don't know if that's different than what we're talking
about here, but that's always been my gig was to
try to stay ahead of the opposition. Honor the past,
but don't let it control your future. And regarding traditions,
traditions worth keeping, do you release those that which no
longer serve a purpose? These are I get conflicted, So
you have to realize and look, Okay, my cars, I
(43:19):
have old cars. We talk about this often, but I
don't want to drive a fifty six Chevy as was.
I want to drive a fifty six Chevy as Is
after the rest o mod. So there's that to be.
I guess I'm being contradictory when I have old cars
but their new cars basically inside.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
So what traditions are worth keeping?
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Is it worth keeping that little slant six engine that
does no power? Do I put a three point fifty
or better into this thing and get some power and
be able to get onto the freeway? See, I guess,
I guess sometimes I could be contradictory, and I'm really
trying to come to grips with all this. But honor
the past, but don't let it control your future. Creativity, innovation,
(43:58):
all this stuff. That's why I was stuck with today,
and I think what Jane is doing right now is
going to create those kind of thoughts, And for me,
it's always about not just pushing back because it's not
something I'd been thinking about. So I want to be
very open minded and try to suck this all up
and eventually come to the conclusions what do I think about.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
This when it comes to baseball.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
I have concluded that I think I love the pitch clock,
I love the PitchCom Superstars, great Changes, rock and Roll absolutely,
the other stuff I think is superfluous, and then moving
it further uniforms and city connects and all the bat
flips and permitting all this other stuff interfering with strategy.
(44:40):
Having technology, you know, really promote not arguing with umpires,
which is part of the game. All this stuff, to
me needs to be I don't know if ILL ever
concede to that stuff. So that's my conflict.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
You just made me think, Joe, in terms of honoring
the past and still moving forward. To borrow one of
your ideas, how about one week of the baseball season
we call it American Legion Week. Do it, and we
take all the iPads out of the dugout, We take
all the laminated defensive positioning cards out of the player's pockets.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
We tone down the incessant noise in the ballpark.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
If you go to Yankee Stadium and Dodgers Stadium especially,
there is not a moment of quiet between pitches. So
how about one week out of the year we just
remind people of how great this game can be on
its own and let just the players' initiatives and the
way that they read the ball off the bat and
making their own decisions and stop, you know, franchising out
(45:38):
decision making to technology. Play an American Legion week technology off,
go play ball.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
Oh god, I love I swear to god, that's awesome.
I love that. No walk up music.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Now you can wear the retro uniforms too.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
Yeah, we're real uniforms that all match right, and that's
what that's the definition of uniform.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
So yeah, that tld me. I like that, not a
little bit a lot.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
That would be something I think would be wonderfully appealing.
And again this is my sensibilities. I'd like to think
others would be into it too. Well done, man, I'm
on board absolutely.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
One week out of the year, that's all.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
I think, And that would happen.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Do it in August, come to the ballpark later, No,
batting practice on the field, you know, all this kind
of stuff. You know, permit the body to rest, permit
the mind to rest, come out play the game and
I it would be so interesting to watch and without
the interference.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
Wow, great idea. Love it, absolutely love it.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Well, it's been a lot of fun. Joe James a
great guest.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
He's got a great book coming out and encourage people
to pick it up. It's out soon September the ninth,
and we'll see you next time on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 4 (46:42):
Well done, Tommy, Thank you for that. Appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey Eric, Welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
To the Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Verducci,
and of course Joe Madden. Joe, I know you are
a closet bibliophile. I know, back in the day, ravenous
appetite for reading books, going back to Pat Conroy, Kurt Vonnegut,
names Missioner, and Joe. I also know it's kind of
(00:36):
like eating your fruits and vegetables and getting more sleep, right,
we sometimes need to be prodded to do more of
book reading.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
So where are you on your book reading quests.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'm horrible. I'm absolutely horrible, and I'll tell you why.
I mean, I think I figured it out. There's just
so much other stuff to read constantly. I'm always reading.
I missed not reading novels, and I don't like me
for that. I'm not acquiescing to anything here.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
I did.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
I used to read at least the book every two weeks,
and that was started in nineteen seventy seven on a
bus Uncle Chuck Gamey a missioner's centennial and it just
kept going, I mean.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
For years, and it was wonderful, and I.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Really believe I don't know, I believe a lot of
what I think and how I think was absolutely influenced
by all these different wonderful authors, different genres. I really
liked the historic fiction a lot. I did read some biographies,
obviously of Colin Pale's. Among my favorite favorite author of
all time for me is Pat Conroy.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
I really like ken Fallt too.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
I mean I could go on and on about this
Leon Yours with Exodus and the Hades. I mean, he
really opened my eyes. And Greg Aisles with his stuff
about World War Two. It was good stuff, man. But
I'm disappointed in myself. It's just the way the world
works today. Like I'll get up in the morning and
I look on videos. Right, I'm looking at MLV videos
from yesterday. I want to see what happened. And then
(01:52):
I go to YouTube just to catch up on news.
And I watched the news, and then I'll watch golf swings.
I mean, it's just they made it too easy. It's
like the new method of reading is watching a video,
and I'm not proud of it at all.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Well, I've got something to get you back. Let's call
it in reading shape. It's like getting back on the treadmill. Okay, Okay,
we've got here a special guest. She's Jane Levy, and
she wrote a book that's just out.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Make me Commissioner. I love the title here.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I Know What's wrong with baseball and how to fix it.
Jane has written, I mean, so many New York Times bestsellers.
He's written great biographies on Sandy Kofax, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth,
and Mount Rushmore of baseball practically, and we are absolutely
thrilled to have Jane with us. Jane, congratulations on the book.
(02:41):
How you doing these Days?
Speaker 5 (02:42):
It was a four year slought. You guys know what
this is like?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
You written together.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
I love your book together. Just started out. This is
not a book I wanted to write. I thought I
was going to find another guy to put up on
my Mount Rushmore. And when I sat down to look,
I have two rules. One never do a book that
a friend has done good better indifferent to do a
book or biography that you don't think you can improve.
(03:07):
So I started looking around to see what major league
figure was begging to have a life story told. And
the truth of the matter is in modern baseball. And
one thing I will change is to figure out how
to start making stars again. Babe Ruth would be rolling
over in his grave to know how few of the
(03:28):
current echelon of major leaguers rank in the top of
hits and clicks and money earned and outside income. There
just doesn't seem to be an urgency to reduce those
kinds of stars and to require them to do the
kinds of things that help you become a star.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
That's interesting, Jane, I was wondering about where this book
came from the idea of it, and is the course
of reporting this book, what did you find where some
of the more unexpected revelations you mentioned the lack of
true star players, especially as compared to some of the
other major sports these days. What else really surprised you
(04:07):
in the course of reporting this out.
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Well, I think the thing probably surprised and appalled, I
mean most was the well two things, the sheer numbers
of shredded arms major league and minor league arms, and
distinct deterioration of the Black American population of players in
the system, and how that was allowed to deteriorate from
(04:34):
an industry where they could brag every April fifteenth, It's
Jackie Robinson Day, and go from close to twenty percent
of all major leaguers being African American black or down
to six and they put money into it recently and
that some total improvement for last year was zero point
three percent.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I mean, I got something on your first part of that, Jane,
and Tom hears me banging on this all the time.
You're talking about the lack of legitimate stars and the
the fans being able to really hold on to and
somebody you really want to write about, And honestly, I
don't know. For me, it's about the last twenty years
is when the genesis of it and I was at
(05:14):
the beginning of it also, And I might probably culpable
a little bit, but I really believe analytically analytics kind
of prevents greatness. The way that the analytical world has
taken over. Everybody's become the same, everybody's after the same player,
everybody wants to develop the player the same way, and
a lot of the same This is a lack of
baseball grabitas experience guys that have done it before.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
It's based on more.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
You're talking about velocity, you're talking about shredded arms, you're
talking about home runs, hit the ball with the wall,
but strikeouts are okay and try to get a walk. Defense.
It's okay if we would like to play good defense,
but if we don't, it's fine, and they have to
actually change rules to put base running or base stealing
back in the game. So I just the phrase. I
use it to stay out of the way of greatness.
And I think, in my mind's eye, analytics is really
(05:59):
it kind of it does. It gets in a way
of people becoming great because there's a lot of restrictor
plays but on them, there's a lot of that. It's
just the fact that guys aren't just turned loose to
be themselves. They're always being influenced by data, numbers, technology,
which always lacks emotion and always lacks character. It's just
it's just very sterile and generic. So that's my part
(06:20):
about it. That's the part that I find interference. That
that's where inference is occurring. And I believe from my perspective,
if you want to get back to greatness and people
that are really attractive to watch and can become Hall
of Fame potential or people you want to write about,
I would let them be themselves a little bit more
in regards to developmentally, not just so much again, they
(06:43):
throw a pitch in a bullpen. Look at this on
the iPad. Hitters in the in the immediately look up
and see what their exovelocity was after they've lined out
all This kind of stuff, to me is superfluous and
it's not really a necessary as part of our game.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
I spend a lot of time with a woman who
created the MIT Sports Analytics Lab. So she's not somebody
who hates analytics. She makes makes her living and she's
brilliant at her doing this stuff. Their name is Peco Hassai,
and she's in the weeds, but it's fascinating, she said.
The people who are creating these algorithms these days are
(07:20):
people who are very good at algorithms, but they don't
have what in that world is called domain knowledge, and
that means what's happening on a field and having seen
it before. And more scary than that is that they
don't feel you need to have domain knowledge in order
to create a metric that might be useful to not supplant,
(07:45):
but increase a manager's ability to manage. If you can
use them, you know, in conjunction with your eyes and
your ears and your wit and your wisdom, great so
be it. But that's not how they're used. And as
Joe and I have talked about this, you know, analytics
can tell you what's going to happen nine times out
of ten, and if you make those decisions always based
(08:07):
on nine times out of ten, then you miss the
one time where it's different, where the wind changes, or luck,
luck comes and descends upon your shoulders, or fate intervenes.
You're Roger Davis, you know, and you're you're not supposed
to hit that home run in twenty sixteen? Was he? Joe?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I mean, and of course not there he was, and
he did it.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
And Joe Torre said, and you don't know he can
do it. He's the last guy you're going to send
up in any.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Other professional Well, what I love about this book, Jane,
what I love about any book.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Really, it's a good book.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It really makes you think, you know, it's it should
be to me an interactive experience, not just a passive experience.
And you've done that with this book. And I actually
think you mentioned the human element a lot. I think
that's a thread here in this book, and it actually
made me think about how we connect to one another,
not just to baseball right. I mean, we live in
(09:04):
a world now in which if you're a middle school
English teacher you have to figure out whether your students
are using AI to write their essay rather than doing
their own thinking.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
I mean, that's the world we live in.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And there is this pursuit of perfection in baseball when
you just eloquently stated the fact that we love sports
because of what's unexpected. So I think what you're doing
here is you're kind of getting the pulse of how
we are connecting to baseball as fans. And is that
something that going forward that Major League Baseball actually should
(09:37):
be worried about because a lot of baseball now is
attracting people based on, let's face it, gambling and the
fact that going to a baseball game is not so
much about the game as it is a social event
and the happenings that are going on with light shows
and music and what have you. So the long way
of asking you, Jane, about going forward here, is this
(09:57):
good or should baseball be concerned about how people are
connecting to the game in a very different way?
Speaker 5 (10:03):
Well? Absolutely absolutely, Because most people these days go once
maybe twice a year. Somebody gets them tickets, somebody has
a suite whatever. It doesn't have to do with either
an allegiance to a team a player. What's happened is
when when analytics Joe says this so well, and when
analytics conspire against allowing for those possibilities, you preclude them
(10:27):
from happening. When is the next time you think we're
going to see a perfect game? And you know, Joe
brought up with me to the Snell example when Cash
took him out, and you know the World Series, and
what about when Clayton Kershaw was taken out when he
was two innings away, you know, six outs away from
a perfect game in his first appearance in twenty twenty two.
(10:49):
I talked to Dave Roberts about it. I don't think
he can say how much he regrets it, but he
does regret it. If somebody is going to do the impossible,
it was gonna be Clayton Curshell on that day. And
wouldn't a headline that had said and Kershaw of the
greatest left I think it was October first, something like that,
and after coming off an arm injury, goes out in
(11:11):
Minnesota in his first outing and throws a perfect game.
If that was the story, rather than Clainton Krushell when
seven innings and was perfect and came out, because that
was the prudy, analytically prudey thing to do. That's the
reason to go to the ballpark.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Jane actually not just puts her finger on the pulse
of these things. She comes up with solutions and ideas.
For instance, you mentioned the perfect game. Jane, she's got
an idea. This is pretty good. And I know, Joe
you don't like giving managers rules to work with, but
sometimes we have to legislate things because you leave people
to their own devices in this game, and it may
never get back to where it should be. If a
(11:46):
manager takes a starting pitcher out with a perfect game
intact through seven innings, you lose your challenge for the
next ten days.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I saw that that's outsteading.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
That'll make you think right now, That'll make the front
office think right there.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
That's what I'm trying to do.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
It's not even about making the manager thing, because all
these things, Jane are really they're being controlled from above.
And you know that Tommy knows that, I know that
everybody knows that it's not managers making decisions like this,
it's front offices. I've been through situations, and I classically
use the time with Jake Arietta in our big year
with the Cubbies where we're beating the Minnesota Twins.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Late in the game it ended up being ate nothing.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
It had been a close game, all of a sudden
it say nothing and Jacobs cruising. And I had the
experience in the minor leagues of seeing young pitchers throw
complete game shutouts and how it changed the way they
thought about themselves and it altered their their trajectory moving forward.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
So that was an experience for me.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
So I let him go and he threw right aroun
one hundred and twenty pitches, complete games, shutout, and after
that he just zoomed. He just took off after that,
And I was kind of criticized by the front office
because I permitted that to happen, and then I gave
them the explanation I just gave you, and then you
just alluded to that earlier where the people that are
(13:00):
doing these things are making these calls really have no
experience in the field and have no thought or idea,
and there's nothing in the algorithms, nothing in the matrices
that covers the human element. What they feel, how they're there,
their heart, they're got their brain sores after being accomplished
in these moments, and how it's going to benefit you
down the road. All they think about is injury. They
(13:22):
don't think about the potential positive outcome. And that's the
part that frustrates me.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
Didn't you tell me that you used to have a
preseason no hitter meeting. You'd be better to explain it
and where it came from than I. But I made
sure to put that in because I thought it was brilliant.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Well, actually THEO brought that to my attention and we did.
And that's from then on I started to do it.
And I give him credit for it because Steel has
even though he had never played whatever, but he has
a pretty good pulse on what's going on.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
And so we had a meeting.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
And the guys knew that if you have a potential
no hitter, if you have a no hitter going, I'm
going to stay out of the way.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Now, there's got to be I to some extent.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Maybe a limit, because I remember when Edwin Jackson did
it to us with the Raizy. He's almost one hundred
and fifty pitch walk seven or eight guys at the
Tropic Canada field and still ended up with a no hitter,
and I think that kind of did bother him afterwards physically. However,
that's the anomaly. I think, Yes, you talk to the guys,
you know, okay, after that, the next start, you may
(14:20):
be pushed back a day, maybe pushed back two days.
But we're not going to get in the way of
this accomplishment for you, your resume, your family, your mom,
your dad, and your grandkids down the road. So these
are the things aren't even considered anymore. Although the lure
and all the allure that we had experienced growing up
looking at the back of a baseball card or waiting
till the next day to read the box score, that's
(14:42):
not considered important anymore.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
And I disagree with that completely.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
You're right, all these guys should be given these opportunities
to do this kind of thing. And that's why I
think it's vital to have these kind of meetings in
camp because it's actually it's independent if any analytical component,
which I think needs to be curbed quite frankly, that's
another subject, but that's what we did.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
You have to have some situational dexterity, and that is
what is missing. Once the decision is made before the
game or manager is told a guy can only go
so many the unis or you can you can't use
them today, or whatever it is. You have to be
able to say, wait a minute, this is Clayton crucial,
(15:24):
this is the guy who's done everything else, or it's Ariata.
You know, how is this going to change his trajectory
as a pitcher and as a human being.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
There's a lot of choreography done before the game, as
you know, there's it's all about its choreographed, and the
dexterity is you.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Got to be You better be right.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
If you're going to be incorporate dexterity at all, you
better be right because otherwise it's really going to not
work in your favor as the manager of The games
are so scripted today to me, you know, the large
sample size is the large sample size, and the small
sample size is your experience.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
So all these these.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Menumbers that are compiled are compiled through the course of
over a year, maybe two years. Good, they're going to
repeat themselves often. But you know what, it's not often
that reality matches up with this thought. This this matrix
whatever reality and actual and what happens for sure before
the game, which you lay out as your plan does
not always meet reality. So you have to maintain dexterity
(16:19):
in the moment, and that is your experience. That's where
it's at, and that's where they don't want.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
They don't want experience.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
They want more controllable situations that they want to do
before the game, but not allowing for the fact that
when the game begins a lot of times that stuff
just gets blown up.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, you're talking about those blink moments right right out,
when you respond to something in the moment. Absolutely, And
another one of your ideas I really like involved kids,
because even Major League Baseball's own research shows that if
you want a fan for life of the game of baseball,
you need to reach them in those magic years I
call magic years between say eight and twelve. And if
(16:56):
you get a young person out to the ballpark even
one game a year, that has a tremendous impact and
whether that person is going to be a lifelong fan
and then pass on that love of baseball to.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Their own kids. And you came up with a great idea.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Every night we look and listen the average attendants in
the big leagues is about twenty nine thousand and thirty thousand.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
There's a lot more seats that do not get used.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Why not make sure that kids can get in free
as long as they're accompanied by an adult? I guess,
And you bring up an example where if you gave
a kid a free ticket, give them a hot dog
in a soda, ice cream, maybe a cap and Joe
Madden can speak to how important it is as a
kid to have had of your favorite team. And you
can bring up the example that Chicago Cubs had done that.
(17:42):
It would cost them four million dollars, which sounds like
a lot, but at the same time, they were paying
Jason Hayward twenty one million dollars not to play for
them to play for the Los Angeles Dodgers. Is this
really a doable thing for baseball and for individual teams
to do to give away these tickets to young people.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
Give a kid tenant on a free ticket, Grandpa page,
Grandpa's going to spoil the kid. He's gonna tell them
the stories. He's going to take him by a hand
and make him a baseball fan for life. And that's
what they need more than anything else, Right, now good stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Jane.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Hey, listen, there's a lot more I want to get
into about this book. There is so much is such
a rich book full of great ideas. Again, it really
makes you think whether you're a fan of the game
or maybe you're starting to turn off on the game,
there's many reasons to dive into this book. We will
continue our conversation with Jane leeby make Me Commissioner. I
know what's wrong with baseball and how to fix it.
We'll do that right after this quick break. Welcome back
(18:50):
to the Book of Joe podcast, joined by Jane Levy
In a great book, Make Me Commissioner. Jane, I'm gonna
play Devil's advocate right here, because a lot of people
in Major League Baseball now I'm talking about in the
Commissioner's office look at some of the numbers here and
they say, hey, we don't need fixing, right. I mean,
let's face it, a lot of businesses these days judge
themselves by television ratings.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Last year, baseball was lucky enough.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
To get sho Heyo Tani and Aaron Judge in the
World Series Yankees and Dodgers, and it was the highest
rated World Series since twenty seventeen. This year, Major League
Baseball on Fox is up ten percent. On ESPN, it's
up twenty two percent on TBS, it's up sixteen percent,
including sixty nine percent in the eighteenth to thirty four demographic.
The Major League Baseball Network Showcase games, which I do,
(19:36):
up thirteen percent, thirteen percent in the eighteenth to thirty
four demographics.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
All double digit growth this year.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
I'm not sure whether everybody's cribbing off of last year's
World Series, whether this is completely the Otani effect, But
you tell me, how do you interpret the increased viewership
numbers for Major League Baseball this season compared to what
the trend has been in this game.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Well, first of all, yet you need to know not
just the percentages, have to know how many people that
actually is. Like last year, they were touting the findings
of the annual Aspen State of Play game, which showed that,
oh wow, there were seventeen point nine million playing baseball,
and then when he went to the fine print, you
found out, well, yes there were, but of those seventeen
(20:18):
point nine million people, give or take nine million, were
people who played once between once and thirteen times a year.
In other words, you go to the company picnic and
you pick up a glove, are your hamstring and that
counts as playing baseball. Yes, I commend them for the increases.
That's great, but look at the fine print and what
(20:40):
it is. The same week that the Bananas were signed
by ESPN, major League Baseball lost. It's five hundred It's
five hundred million, right a year contract with ESPN. They
have a real problem with the television and we all
know it. It's hard to find the games. They've splintered
(21:01):
where the games appear so many different ways, a lot
of people can't find them. So, you know, make baseball
find a ball. Yes, split it up, take advantage of
streaming and game day and all that stuff, but consider
what it means to sit down and say I want
to find a game. I'm up here. I couldn't watch
(21:22):
the Red Sox and Yankees, and I'm in Cape Cod,
Massachusetts because of blackouts. I own every kind of package
except nessen, So because I didn't have nesson, I couldn't
watch the game.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
I even tried.
Speaker 5 (21:35):
Computer mirroring, couldn't do it. If you're a regular person
and I'm not very regular, you know, and you come
and you want to watch that game and you can't
you're going to be turned off for life. And they
have made some significant gains, Tom, There's no doubt about it,
and I applaud them for that. I just think, you know,
the long term TRUG dectory needs some pimping, as it were.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Tomy, let me ask you this.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
I mean, do they have when they make these kind
of claims, because these stats could always be pipulated, just
like Jane suggesting, do they at least attach it to
why they think that's happening? What are the drivers in
this situation?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Well, I do think they've They've done a really good
job in terms of national games, having scheduled the big
rivalry games tend to be on weekends. Fox picks up
those games. A lot of this is driven by the
New York and Los Angeles markets. I mean, we're going
to talk next, Jane about the economic system, where let's
face it, it's.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Such a great system.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Put it this way that no other sport would want
to copy the economic system baseball has.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
But it's very top heavy. At baseball.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
You have these national draw teams and starting with the
Yankees and the Dodgers, but you just can't put any
baseball game out there, and I think they've done a
good job making sure they get these bigger games on
weekends in prime time.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
And there's also the international element.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
I mean, we.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Cannot underestimate the Otani effect on Major League Baseball. To
borrow from one of Jane's favorites, he is our babe, Ruth.
I mean last year, the first two games of the
World Series, the games were on at nine AM in Japan,
and more people watched the World Series those first two
games in Japan than here in prime time in the
United States. It's crazy. Netflix is getting into baseball. Yeat Netflix,
(23:17):
because they got the rights to the WBC Japan telecast
next year. They get so many people watching those games.
So I think the international element also is taking off here.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
So you've mentioned everything, but you have not mentioned the
changes made to the game as being a driver to
any of this.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
I mean, well it is, there's no question, and I
want Jane to speak to this because in the course
of you know, digging into all these topics here, Jane,
you saw the game change with the pitch timer. Major
League Baseball has taken out twenty six minutes of nothingness
out of their products. I mean, as I like to say,
that's better than Ozembic getting rid of the fat, because
(23:53):
the game went from three hours and six minutes to
two hours and forty minutes. And it wasn't like they
took out a lot of offense. It's the same amount
off In fact, hits are actually down slightly, but it's
happening a lot faster. The worst thing being said about
baseball was said for an entire generation, and that is
that it's too slow.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
That narrative is gone, it's been removed.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
The game does move more quickly, and I gotta believe Jane,
and you've talked to players, managers and fans about this.
That has to be a big driver in terms of
the game's popularity.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
It was by far the best change they made. Other
than Joe might disagree with me about this, getting rid
of the shift absolutely was necessary. Should be done a
decade earlier. At least. You know, I had all these friends,
what you guys do too baseball? People said, well, nothing happens,
and it turned out finally they were right. It is
harder for baseball to make changes without people being outraged,
(24:53):
and without them sitting there saying, oh, we're doing pretty good.
We don't have to change anything, and so they didn't
for decades, and it was, to say the least belated.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I'm with you on this ship.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
By the way, Jane, Joe, how you feel about it,
I think a much better game.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
The shift's still there, it's not gone. I watch where
the shortstop plays. He plays one step on the but
he can still cover on the other side.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
See.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
I get that the shift's not there, but I don't
think it's as impactful. You just said hits are down
and offense is not generally up, so I don't think
it's as impactful as people think it is.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
I do agree with Jane.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
The clock is a superstar, absolutely is the superstar of
the changes, and I think that's that's what I was
driving up before when asked you if there's any other
driver's Tommy regarding the shift and people wanting to watch
the games quicker, I totally agree with that. I love
the PitchCom calling pitches a great idea. The parts and
Jane that I don't like is whenever they impact strategy,
(25:48):
they should not interfere with a batter, minimum run around
second base, throw overs the first base. As long as
you have the clock. Those things aren't necessary anymore. I
don't think so. I would love to see because what
happens is now with all these other changes in the
fact that really further ittigates the power of the manager.
The manager has to have even less experience based on
(26:09):
what he's able or not able to do during the
course of the game, where if you have some experience,
if you do know, if you could just see things
in advance a little bit further than these of these
changes mitigate that experience, whether it's a three better minimum,
you know, throwing over the first base which was in
a pitch out, stealing bases, starting runner at second base,
a lot of things are already control at that point.
(26:30):
So that's that really further creates more control for the
front offices and less in the dugout.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Jane, I'm wondering how you consume baseball has changed if
it has.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
You mentioned me, and I.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Think a lot of people are frustrated by some of
the archaic blackout rules major League Baseball has, where sometimes
it's literally just hard to find a game that you want.
You know, it's like a restaurant closing its doors. If
you customers are looking for you, you're not looking for them.
How has it changed for you in terms of consuming baseball?
Speaker 5 (27:01):
Well, I just pay through the nose for every package
you could. I love you, I spend the month. But
can I go back to the ghost runner thing? Because
I hate it. I mean, anybody who's watched Judge or
Stanton try to go small ball in the tenth inning
knows that it's a disaster where teams and players are
(27:21):
turning themselves inside out to not be who they are.
And what's more, it's not real baseball.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
So, Jane, there's one thing we love to do with
the guests on our show, and that is to play
a game we call a reading from the Book of Joe.
We like to think that in our book, the Book
of Joe, it's three hundred and sixty five pages that
you'll basically find something interesting on any page. So we
let our guests pick a number between one and three
(27:50):
hundred and sixty five and we'll go to that page
and see what we find. So the choice is yours.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Here.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You get to pick any number between one and three
sixty five and we'll.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
See what we have.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Page one.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
That's a first.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
That's right, that is a first. It's number one.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
You got to get your lead out there.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Man. Yeah, well, this is a good place to start,
because we love to talk about the struggle on this show.
I mean, a big part of your book, I believe
is not just the pursuit of perfection, but finding hacks
and shortcuts to try to get there in this world.
And we love to emphasize the struggle of what it takes.
Anybody's written a book understands that what that's about. So
(28:30):
I'll start at the top of page one. Quitting is
the easy way. Joe Madden heard it cyn Call. In
the spring of nineteen ninety one. After fifteen years of
service in the minor league system of the California Angels
as a player, a scout, manager, and instructor, Madden.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Was done with the organization.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
If you have to list an official cause for the disillusionment,
it would have been easy to sum up in one word, disrespect.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
This must bring back some memory.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
You open up a scar here eighteen ninety one when
you went through some soul searching. I guess for you
who loves baseball, So explain Jane and our audience about
that moment.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
I'm bleeding right now.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Yeah, that was a situation where I was passed over
for a job, first base coaching job by the Angels.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Doug Grater was the manager.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Gave it to my buddy Jeter Hines, who I dearly
love and was great, was a great coach, great instructor. However,
I really had been in charge of pretty much all
the programs developed into minor leagues from nineteen eighty four
to that moment, hitting instructor, based, running instructor, catch instructor,
field coordinator, all this stuff, and had been a manager.
(29:36):
So I really thought it was my job at that point,
I should have had the job. And after all, at
that point it's different than it is today. You had
to earn your way to the big leagues. You had
to touch all the bases basically in order to be
deemed acceptable or ready to be a major league coach.
And so I got passed over, and that really does
the first time, I just wasn't the same person. After that,
(29:59):
I really thought I had been disrespected. I thought it
was wrong. I also learned at that point, if you're
waiting for fairness to exist, you're gonna wait a really
long time, because the word fair doesn't really it's really not.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
It's a word, but it doesn't really mean anything anymore.
So all these.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Things came to my head at that point, and I
stopped being me for a while, a couple months actually,
until I get on an airplane and going to middle
of Texas. This lady sits next to me. We're just
having a conversation that I did not want to have
morning flight Phoenix to Midland, Texas, not in a good mood,
which is rare, and she blurted out the phrase, remember
(30:33):
one thing, whatever you put out there comes back to you.
And wow, that just kicked me right between the eyeballs.
And I got off the plane a different human. And
the point is going through all these different struggles, which
I really think is important, and nobody, I don't know
how many folks today really understand what that does for you.
So anyway, I went through all that, was really upset,
(30:55):
wanted to leave the angels, carrying it on through into
the season. The lady says that to me on an airplane. Seriously,
it kind of like changed my life from that point
till today. I mean, whenever I get word it out
by stuff I think about that, don't underestimate the struggle
and don't underestimate the power of the correct words in
the right moment that could really attitude is a decision,
and it did change my mindset from that moment on.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Whatever you put out there comes back to you. I
just love that.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
And Jane, it makes me think, this is such a
far reaching book, with so many important elements to it.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
How did you decide how to begin?
Speaker 5 (31:30):
Well? I started the same day, believe it or not,
that THEO started to come up with his ideas for
how to fix the game. So I thought I was
writing one book during twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two,
it only feels like nineteen twenty one, and happy to
switch it and re report the book starting in twenty
twenty three to see how the rules had helped and
(31:53):
whether it was sufficient or whether more needed to be done.
And so I traveled all over the country at every
kind of different baseball I could find. And I had
the privilege of being old enough at this point to
just say I don't need to talk to people I
don't want to talk to. So I had the privilege
of talking to smart guys. I didn't want to talk
to all the people expected you know, characters. I wanted
(32:16):
to talk to people I liked and people I thought
would be honest. And to Joe's point, one of the
guys I spent a lot of time with was Dusty,
who maybe was the most human human in the game
at the time. And I asked him because I said,
I said, what is this thing about the human element?
Suddenly I hear every word the human element, the human element.
(32:37):
And I listed all the guys who had used that phrase.
I guess I'd pick it up. It's now, you know,
dugout shatter and I said, well, what is this and
he said the best I mean, this made be the
best quote in the entire book. He said, I said,
what happened to empiricism on the diamond? And first of all,
I was glad you do the word, But second of
(32:59):
all his quote was fabulous. He said, it means nothing, Jane.
It's unbelievable. They try to sell me some bs and
I'm saying, that ain't what my eyes are telling me.
And their next comment was, your eyes will lie to you.
And if you had to sum up what's wrong, that's
(33:19):
a pretty good summation. And the profound disrespect for wisdom
and experience isn't just in baseball, though, that's our topic.
It's throughout our society. Look at how many scientists have
been canned who've been studying cancer for decades. We don't
seem to remember that wisdom and experience matter, maybe more
(33:44):
than anything else.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Well said Jane, it's an important book. We congratulate you.
Wish you nothing but success with this book. It's make
me Commissioner. I Know what's wrong with baseball and how
to fix it? Published by Grand Central Publishing. It's out
September the ninth. And you may agree wholeheartedly with Jane.
You may agree with Jane, but one thing this book
(34:06):
will do is it will make you think.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
And thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Jane, Thank you, Thanks Jane. Great to see you and
hear you again.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
That was Jane Leevy. We thank her for her time and.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Look forward to the publication of a really important baseball book.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Hey, we're not done yet here on the Book of Joe.
We get back.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
We'll wrap things up right after this. Welcome back to
the Book of Joe podcast Joe. It's an interesting book.
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
How you know.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Jane started this years ago, as she explained, and a
lot has changed in the game since then, mostly the
pitch timer changing, the game. I happen to think the
game is on a really good trajectory right now. But
I do think her points about the human element of
the game still apply. And I think all of us
have to look at, you know, baseball sort of as
(35:03):
a proxy as to what's happening in our in our
culture anyway, in terms of the search for perfection, the
amount of faith we put in technology and in this case, analytics.
As I said, Joe, I think this book will make
you think. You may not agree with a lot of things,
but we really have to start doing some critical thinking
about some of these issues.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
I'm most of everything she talked about, I think I'm
kind of in agreement with except the shift with you, Yeah,
there's the human elements being subtracted. Absolutely, we listen everything
we just talked about. Everything she's talking about, we've been
talking about on this show for months, years, almost a
couple of years right now. So I cannot agree with
(35:44):
her more. And when it comes down to perfection. And
actually one of her quilight quotes Tori on analytics, they're
trying to make an imperfect game perfect, and I.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
Resent that, said Joe. That's the thing.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
I mean, I do believe a lot of this for me,
The perfection part of it is analytics and gambling. Those
are the two elements that are driving the need for perfection.
And when you when you're talking about perfection, of course
you're not talking about reality or real human beings. Is
nobody's perfect. But I've always thought, of course you're you're
seeking perfection.
Speaker 4 (36:15):
On a night lea base.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
But I also believe if you were perfect at this game,
you wouldn't want to do it.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
It would lose it's a lure. If you were that good.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Every night, there'd be nothing to really work for, a
strife for attempt to get better at because you're perfect.
And I don't even know if people understand that, but
I do believe gambling is driving this way too much.
I don't like it at all. You know, I'm even
seeing more recognizable guys and primarily men that are doing
these commercials and I don't like it. I just don't
(36:43):
like it, and I think it really sets the wrong
tone and as simple as that. But anyway, she's right
on with so many different things. Her breakdown, you know,
the we even got to the point of staying out
of the way greatness, and she can't even find the
next guy to write a book about, because she's concerned
it that person doesn't exist. And I think those people
that she's talking about how to individuality about them that
(37:05):
was nurtured just by people not getting in the way.
Like we're talking about seeing out the way greatness, whether
it's a unique batting stance, at the ability to throw
Loan Ryan throwing two hundred pitches in the game and
nobody there to say that you cannot go ahead and
finish your perfect game, Go ahead and finish your finish
your no hitter, go ahead and finish your shutout, all
these different things. Go ahead and hit the ball to
the right field, and they don't hit tread to hit
a home run even with two strikes.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
All this stuff is being.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Driven by those that had never really done it, and
it's being driven by the baseball's version of artificial intelligence
telling us how to play the game, where the computer
the spreadsheet never really did. So there's so much here
to unpack. I agree with her in so many different ways,
and I'm actually looking forward this would be probably the
(37:48):
next book that I do read.
Speaker 5 (37:50):
Well.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Joe, you brought up a really good point with the
betting and the gambling because I think in this case,
what's changed is our and I'm speaking for fans, our
relationship with baseball. Where you're seeing now and this has
happened multiple times this year, where death threats are being
made on social media to Major League Baseball players and
their significant others because they didn't perform well, which meant
(38:12):
that someone had to bet on that game. And now
you're losing money based on player performance. So we are
now treating baseball players not as human beings but as assets,
as stocks that go up or down. And when you're
losing money based on the performance of players, the anger
becomes palpable in terms of how people react. You're not
(38:32):
just disappointed, but now you're taking it personally. That money
is coming out of your pocket. And I think now
the relationship between the fan and the game is not
so much your favorite team or especially how the game
is played, but what's the upside? How much money can
I make on this? What bet should I put on
this game? And I think baseball's got to be really careful.
(38:53):
I understand it's incredibly popular and it's become so ubiquitous
and so easy to do. Again, we live in a
world of convenience now, even betting has become an issue
of convenience, where we've removed all barriers to betting, and
a lot of people who should not be betting are betting,
especially young people, because it is so easy. And I
think it's warped our view of who the players are
(39:15):
and what our connection to the game is.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
Well, you're creating this group of artificial fans.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I mean, everybody's not fans, like you alluded to it
in the we just talked about with Jane.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
But my hat, I get to say those Cardinal.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Hat When I was nine years old and I became
an absolute fan, and I could sell everything about every
Cardinal in the sixty four sixty five that era. Right
after the time I started playing minor league baseball, I
was a legitimate, sincere Cardinals baseball fan. The fans today
are more artificial. I mean, look at the I mean, listen,
uniforms are no longer uniform. Kind of means like the same,
(39:48):
doesn't it. Uniforms are no longer uniform, and there's all
these abominations. I mean, the Savannah bananas have really had
way more influence than anybody wants to admit to in
our game right now, and it's a one time deal.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Listen. I love what they're doing. I think it's great.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
It's the Harlem glow trotters of baseball, and I think
if you get to see them once or twice on
an annual basis, that's plenty. But the color and everything else,
and the bat flips and the historyonics and the celebrations
and all this stuff. It's good for them in their situation.
But I think it's pouring.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
Over into what we're doing here.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
So it's more of a we're creating an artificial fan
and not a sincere fan, and how long is that
going to last? You really truly need to understand and
know the game and respect it. I think to have
this the fans ship be sustained over a period of
time as opposed to being transient.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
That's what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
We're creating artificial fans, and maybe they're getting tabulated in
these wonderful, possibly manipulated numbers in regards to who's watching
and how popular it's become. I'm always aware and I'm
always kind of suspect of those kind of when I
hear those things, and whether it's in baseball, whether I
watch the news at night these polls all the time.
(41:02):
Who's taking the polls? Kind of questions are being asked.
It's very it's dubious to me, and I don't I
don't have a lot of faith after all, look at
the previous elections and how they've turned out after substantially
different information being given to us regarding polls. Like she said,
if there's an eyeball test to it, Dusty talked about it.
I think I am an eyeball guy. I'm a field guy,
(41:22):
but I'm also listening. I do know that sometimes you
can be deceived. I do understand that, but then sometimes
numbers could be deceptive too.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Well, this has been an interesting journey, Joe.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
We've touched on a lot of important macro topics that we.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Could talk about forever.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
But that's going to put some pressure on you to
end this episode of the Book of Joe with something
even more momentous when it comes to our thought of
the day.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
So, mister closer, the ball is yours. It's the ninth inning.
Take us home.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Yeah, it was really.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
I mean, I've kind of figured on all this before
before we talked to Jane today, and I.
Speaker 4 (41:56):
Had like a couple of different things.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
So I'm going to give you like a couple because
it starts with creativity, and that's what's the attempt here,
is to be creative in regards to being.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Creative and then creating kind of a buzz.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
Like Kramer suggested when the Topless Girl came up when
they were vacationing in the Cape Route on the Island.
Creativity is thinking up new things. Innovation is doing new things.
So trying to create a buzz, right, not easy to do.
But creativity is thinking up new things. So there's new
things being thought of, and then innovation is doing new things.
(42:29):
And I actually have you have to say that there
is innovation in baseball. There are not only thinking about
new things, but they're incorporating them and then for better
or for worse, and for how it's being interpreted, it's
out there. So I give d give credit because listen,
that's been my whole existence in professional baseball. My existence
period is always trying to be creative and trying to
(42:52):
get an edge, create an edge based on what everybody
else is doing.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
The zigging and the zagging.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
I don't know if that's different than what we're talking
about here, but that's always been my gig was to
try to stay ahead of the opposition. Honor the past,
but don't let it control your future. And regarding traditions,
traditions worth keeping, do you release those that which no
longer serve a purpose? These are I get conflicted, So
you have to realize and look, Okay, my cars, I
(43:19):
have old cars. We talk about this often, but I
don't want to drive a fifty six Chevy as was.
I want to drive a fifty six Chevy as Is
after the rest o mod. So there's that to be.
I guess I'm being contradictory when I have old cars
but their new cars basically inside.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
So what traditions are worth keeping?
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Is it worth keeping that little slant six engine that
does no power? Do I put a three point fifty
or better into this thing and get some power and
be able to get onto the freeway? See, I guess,
I guess sometimes I could be contradictory, and I'm really
trying to come to grips with all this. But honor
the past, but don't let it control your future. Creativity, innovation,
(43:58):
all this stuff. That's why I was stuck with today,
and I think what Jane is doing right now is
going to create those kind of thoughts, And for me,
it's always about not just pushing back because it's not
something I'd been thinking about. So I want to be
very open minded and try to suck this all up
and eventually come to the conclusions what do I think about.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
This when it comes to baseball.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
I have concluded that I think I love the pitch clock,
I love the PitchCom Superstars, great Changes, rock and Roll absolutely,
the other stuff I think is superfluous, and then moving
it further uniforms and city connects and all the bat
flips and permitting all this other stuff interfering with strategy.
(44:40):
Having technology, you know, really promote not arguing with umpires,
which is part of the game. All this stuff, to
me needs to be I don't know if ILL ever
concede to that stuff. So that's my conflict.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
You just made me think, Joe, in terms of honoring
the past and still moving forward. To borrow one of
your ideas, how about one week of the baseball season
we call it American Legion Week. Do it, and we
take all the iPads out of the dugout, We take
all the laminated defensive positioning cards out of the player's pockets.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
We tone down the incessant noise in the ballpark.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
If you go to Yankee Stadium and Dodgers Stadium especially,
there is not a moment of quiet between pitches. So
how about one week out of the year we just
remind people of how great this game can be on
its own and let just the players' initiatives and the
way that they read the ball off the bat and
making their own decisions and stop, you know, franchising out
(45:38):
decision making to technology. Play an American Legion week technology off,
go play ball.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
Oh god, I love I swear to god, that's awesome.
I love that. No walk up music.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Now you can wear the retro uniforms too.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
Yeah, we're real uniforms that all match right, and that's
what that's the definition of uniform.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
So yeah, that tld me. I like that, not a
little bit a lot.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
That would be something I think would be wonderfully appealing.
And again this is my sensibilities. I'd like to think
others would be into it too. Well done, man, I'm
on board absolutely.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
One week out of the year, that's all.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
I think, And that would happen.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Do it in August, come to the ballpark later, No,
batting practice on the field, you know, all this kind
of stuff. You know, permit the body to rest, permit
the mind to rest, come out play the game and
I it would be so interesting to watch and without
the interference.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
Wow, great idea. Love it, absolutely love it.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Well, it's been a lot of fun. Joe James a
great guest.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
He's got a great book coming out and encourage people
to pick it up. It's out soon September the ninth,
and we'll see you next time on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 4 (46:42):
Well done, Tommy, Thank you for that. Appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
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