May 13, 2025 • 53 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci explore the managerial changes with the Rockies firing Bud Black and the Pirates letting Derek Shelton go. Joe looks at the best way to handle the situation while Tom explains why it's so tough to win in Colorado. Onto the new inductees into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. How music has changed so much in 30 years and why Joe thinks things are so different now. Plus, we had an old-fashioned manager meltdown!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey Daron, welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
To the Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci,
and of course Joe Madden and Joe. I guess it's
that time of year, about almost a quarter of the
way through the season, and managers are taking the hit
and of all places, in Pittsburgh and in Colorado, two
teams that nobody expected to contend are saying we need
(00:39):
a new voice to try to win more games. Pittsburgh,
let Derek Shelton go. Colorado, let's Buddy Black go. After
a long time there successfully nine years with the Rockies,
starting with the first two making the playoffs. Your quick
takes Joe on, You've been there before. Managers getting the
pink slip in the course of the season never easy.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
It's always a blow to your ego somewhat. And the
best way, if you can process it, is to not
take it personally and just as long as you can
answer the questions that you know you put your program
out there, you actually attacked the day in a way
that you felt good about. Now, both of these guys
are friends. I mean I Shelty was my hitting coach
with the Rays back in the two thousand and eight,
(01:24):
nine ten whatever in that area. And then Pepe buddy
Black and I was served together with the Angels. So
these guys are like good friends, and so I feel
for them. I feel for them, I feel for their families. However,
after saying all of that, I'm happy for them. I mean,
both situations got kind of difficult. It's more difficult to
imagine Colorado turning it around right now as compared to
(01:44):
what the Pirates maybe can't a bit. I don't see
them making that much noise for the rest of this year,
but we'll see. They have the pitching staff to get
a little bit fun. But you know, Pepe in Colorado
that was hard to watch. I mean, every day I
pick up the paper, I look at the record and
they were getting annihilated. Was just like losing. And I'm
(02:06):
thinking to myself, how do you go in that locker room?
And people have asked me that, and I've given different answers,
but it's not easy. It's not easy to do that.
You need total support from those people around you in
order to survive that moment and also to continue to
believe in you. That's part of it. And realize in
both situations you look at the manager taking the hit
(02:27):
for it, but understand that it's not you want to
give them full responsibility for the lack of success, and
don't do that. It's not true. There's a lot of
other culpable people involved. So in a perverse way, I'm happy,
especially for Buddy Black where Derek is younger and he's
really trying to get a strong stronghold on being a
(02:47):
major league manager. I think he might get another opportunity.
But both situations were really difficult to watch.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, both have real systemic problems in the organization that
we really have nothing to do with the manager. We
knew going into this year, Joe, you mentioned the Pittsburgh
Pirates pitching.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
It's good. I wouldn't. It's great.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
It's not necessarily deep, but they have really good arms,
and we knew that they were way short offensively and
really almost nothing was done about that, and they they've
turned out to be even worse offensively than we thought.
That's not certainly on Derek Shelton. Apparently Derek Shelton was
on the last year of his deal and they have
Don Kelly there, you know who you know kind of
(03:26):
a Jim Leland disciple, I think is a great baseball
mine runs their spring training. He's a local kid from
a kid and a local guy from Mount Lebanon, and
I think they realized this guy was a talent right
and an ascending talent in terms of going to be
a manager someday, and they wanted it to happen there,
so they saw an opportunity. I like the hiring of
(03:48):
Don Kelly. I think he is a smart baseball guy.
I just don't like the situation there because they just
have not invested in the infrastructure to find more offense there.
They've I can't even say, Joe, They've tinkered on the
margins trying to find offense there. They basically went to
the season without first basement. Don't know how you actually
do that. They looked into Anthony Rizzo and passed on that.
(04:08):
There's a whole lot of things they could have done
to help this team. I'm not saying going out there
and get Pete Alonzo, but when you're the Pittsburgh Pirates,
you have to understand you have Paul Skins, a trend,
you know, transcending generational type pitching talent. You know, a
Steven Strasburg type arm and the clock is already ticking
as to when he leaves the Pittsburgh Pirates. Similar to
(04:29):
Garrett Cole, You've got to take advantage of this narrow
window here. One thing I always say, Joe, these teams
Colorado and Pittsburgh and the like, stop talking to me
about trying to build a sustainable winner. You are not
the Los Angeles Dodgers. You don't have the resources to
have a quote unquote sustainable winner.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
That's just execut you speak there.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Try to find a core group when you've got someone
like Skins to build around you knows, send in a
two to four year window around a cor young players
before they get too expensive and have to move on,
and then try to keep the down cycles as short
as possible with the next group behind them. But you're
not going to build a sustainable winner in places like
(05:15):
Pittsburgh and Colorado.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, and just backtracking just a bit on what you
were talking about the first basement situation. I mean, we've
talked about that earlier in the year. It's getting to
the point where analytics believes you could put anybody at
first base. I really believe that, and I think for
their perspective. They bought into that theory also, so I
think that's part of the reason why they just thought, oh, well,
we'll find somebody that can hit a little bit there,
(05:37):
catch the ball a little bit there, but we're not
going to pay for that particular service. Yeah, I listen.
It's they can't compete Dodgers on a bunch of different levels,
right from the very top with Andrew and the kind
of dough that they do have. You know, I may
be naive with all this, but I'm rooted in the
(05:58):
research and development component of our game. I mean, for me,
in a place like Pittsburgh is all about research and development.
I mean, I would put so much emphasis on my
minor league system, my scouting system, and getting and building
this group from within that's going to permeate and continually
be able to supplant or replace people that, like you're
(06:21):
talking about, may leave in several years. And then with that,
that's when you more judiciously ring in that free agent
and again by a couple of middle class guys. Just
get a couple of the middle class in there, that
salary range where it's a little bit uncomfortable maybe, but
knows how to play baseball can influence the rest of
your team in a way that's going to be beneficial
(06:41):
down the road. So I still believe in that method.
I mean, look at the Rays. I think that's what
the Race kind of do all the time. I think
Milwaukee's kind of in that group right now. Both are
relatively successful, And again, what is success for a lot
of these groups anymore? That's the part that's really confusing.
Being successful. You talked about sustainable, but that's probably they're
(07:03):
just trying to be five hundred on an annual basis.
What is sustainable for me? It's like every year I
would go to Springteter I mean every year, maybe maybe
not my first year with the Race, but maybe not
quite the second. But I always talk about the playoffs
and then I will talk about the World Series in
the same breath. I don't think they really believe that stuff.
And if you did believe it and not just give
(07:24):
it lip service, what do you do then to be
a participant at the end of the year, being part
of the dance, being part of the tournament, whatever you
want to say? So I listen to me. I love
the concept of building from the bottom up. I love
the minor leagues, and I love scouting. I without being there,
I don't know, you know, what they think of it
and and how they're really applying the tenants of baseball
(07:47):
to their developmental process. But places like that have to
not kind of they have to be fully immersed in that.
And and I don't I don't know how much they are.
You know better than I do, because you know you
got your figure on the pulse a bit better than I.
But I my Pittsburgh in those places, I got to
start right there.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I agree with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
And that's why we need to talk about the Rockies now,
because let's start with this. This is sort of a
disclaimer you have to give them. I think it's tougher
to win in Colorado than any other place. Right when
you're playing at altitude, it's just abnormal baseball. So you
have to start with the fact that they're playing uphill
(08:29):
from the start, pitches just don't move as much. The
recovery on the physical taxing on the body is just
is something that other teams and players do not have
to face.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So start with that.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
With that mind, then you should have the biggest most
robust analytics department a player development apartment in all of baseball.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
They don't. They have one of the smallest analytical departments.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
They don't have a scout in the Far East where
you should be getting players and at least being in
that market, which they are not. You know, to me, Joe,
you have to build that team around freakish athletes with
strength just to survive at altitude, right. And if you
wanted to go out there and buy players in the market,
(09:15):
like Chris Bryant, that's a mistake because you're banking that
players who made their their money and their their reputation
at sea level, that there's a lack of predictability in
their numbers once they go and play in Colorado. And
it's not just you know, batting average, home runs RBIs.
It's how they hold up in the grind of a season,
(09:36):
especially for pitchers. So that's why it's more important than
ever that you develop a certain type of player. And
I'll go back to what Jim Leland said about coors Field.
They built the wrong ballpark there. They built it too
darn big. There's too much space in the outfield.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
He said.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
They should have built another Fenway Park with small fences
and large walls. Because there's too many hits that have
fall on like gigantic outfield. Nobody ever gets thrown out
on the bases. You can walk from second to home
on any kind of a base hit, and that works
against the Rockies as well. So you have to populate
that roster which is freakish athletes who can cover ground,
(10:13):
hold up to the grind of a season, and then
you had the whole seesaw effect of going back between
home and the road because the balls are moving completely
differently back and forth through the course of a twenty
six week season. So that's why building from within is
even more important than ever for the Rockies.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Tommy, I cannot disagree with anything you said. That's a
great recap. I think all the points that you made,
and when you talked about Jimmy Leland's definition of that ballpark,
immediately I thought about the Dudley Dome in El Paso.
I managed in Midland, Texas, and the Deadly Dome was
kind of like that. The Deadly Dome, which was almost
on the Mexican border, was short left field and was
(10:49):
almost like a square or rectangle, and there was the
outfield wall did not bow out. It was straight across
straight across from the left field line to the center
field area, and man, the ball would just it would fly.
It flies in El Paso like would fly in Colorado,
and it was a really difficult ballpark to manage it.
(11:09):
I mean, as a manager in that ballpark, I always said,
you just try to get your team in position to
kick the last field goal. The same was in Midland. Midland,
Texas are the same way. At that time was a
one tier wall. They eventually built it up into a
higher Fenway like wall. For my first year, first two
years there, I think the wall was not high. So
(11:30):
pop ups are going out of the ballpark. Is really managerially,
I'm telling you, man, it's very difficult to be strategic.
It just is because you could do all the right
things and a guy could get jammed and the balls
popped up and all of a sudden, the wind blows
it and it's gone out of the ballpark. So it is.
My point is it is a tough place to play
and to really I'm just talking from the managerial seat.
(11:52):
It's hard to be consistent with your approach because what
you believe is going to work a lot of times
maybe could have worked, but the elements really do conspire
against you, and that's just that that ballpark and then
you so brought up and I totally believe this. When
you go on the road, you get used to playing
one kind of game at that ballpark, and all of
a sudden, you go to sea level teams was Shreveporto, Tulsa,
(12:15):
or Beaumont. Beaumont was a double deck ballpark with the
and the ball didn't carry in. The mosquitoes were like
little Cessana's flying in out there were so big. So
you go to those ballparks and the ball didn't go.
So you've been teaching yourself at home to try to
get the ball in their lift the ball whatever. Then
you go on the road and play these ballparks and
if you tick that same approach there, out you're out.
(12:37):
You're out. The ball's not going anywhere. You're out. So
you have to play two completely different kind of games.
And that's that's not just that's not fantasy, that's reality.
So again, you're right, I mean, build your whatever these
athletes are, whatever you want them to look like, whatever
kind of game you're gonna play, step outside of the box.
You can't think the way the Dodgers think you can't
(12:57):
think the way any Sea level team thinks. You just can't.
You can't. It's a dip. I actually played in Boulder
for two summers in Boulder, Colorado, right up the street.
It should be a destination place if you set this
up right, we're talking about like far East. I believe
that they don't even go there because they think they
don't have a chance to lure anybody to come to
(13:18):
play in Colorado. I would bet that's part of the conversation,
no question. But you've got to get beyond these walls
that you're building and understand and whatever you believe is
right to do this and win, to hear, do that,
attack that, stay away from the way everybody else is thinking,
because your situation is that unique.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I actually think Joe the Rockies go too far in
terms of not doing what other teams do. I think
it's the most insular organization in baseball.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
You know, Bill Schmid, the GM that has been there forever.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Chris Forbes, the player development guy, has been there forever.
Warren Shaefer, who was just named the manager to replace
Buddy Black, has been there nineteen years. He's been with
no other organization as a player minor league manager or
major league coach need to go find the brightest minds
out there, whether it's the Yankees, the Rays, the Dodgers,
(14:10):
the Guardians, and find out what they don't know. You know,
you know, one of the things that smart people really
do is admit what they don't know, and they don't
have to be the smartest person in the room. They
compliment their own intelligence with people who can kind of
complete the circle. And I don't think the Rockies do that.
I think they really need to expand their horizons. Doesn't
(14:33):
mean you're copying anybody else, but asking the question, what
do other teams know about winning on the margins that
we don't know. I don't know that the Rockies stand
for anything, Joe, I really don't know if they have
a philosophy.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Bill Schmidt said, you know, guys are playing hard. First
of all, Playing hard to me is not a compliment.
That's a bare minimum for a professional athlete. And he said,
guys like the direction that we're going. Really, you're the
worst organization in baseball for the last seven years. You're
coming off the last two seasons have been the worst
years in Rockies franchise history. You're heading towards probably the
(15:08):
worst ever, maybe worse than White Sox last year, and
you like the direction.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
The team is going. Don't give me that.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
You've got to really have a complete mindset change here
going forward.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
You are not going in the right direction.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, you got to be very very honest about it.
I mean your explanation also, again is very good. I
wasn't looking at it from that perspective regarding going outside
the box or being insular at the same time. I mean,
I was just really talking about the way they're like
you're talking about the way they're going to play the game.
But yeah, they need to stretch their minds there a
(15:43):
little bit too, to be that disingenuous to consider or
try to portray the fact that we are headed in
the right direction. We like what's going on out there?
How do you say that with a straight face, Because
it's not just this year. This year, it's even more exaggerated.
But this has been going on for a bit. I
know some of those guys you're talking about there, and
of course, like we talked about bod he's gone. But
(16:05):
there's really a moment of reckoning there and it always
starts at the top it always does. Ownership then comes
on down and I don't know the man in charge there,
but that really needs to be considered exactly what they're
saying to the rest of the group, what they believe in,
and they're the ones who could have to elicit the change.
You talk about people, gms, whatever, managers, But it's always
(16:28):
going to start at the top on what's permitted from there,
So the moment of reckoning has to start there and
then filter on down to the rest. And it's got
to be an open, honest approach, and everybody's got to
be culpable, and everybody's got to listen to, like you said,
different thoughts and ideas in order to fix this thing.
Because this thing, I mean, I'm into like the quick
(16:48):
fixed kind of stuff, but this is going to take
a bit based on because I'm not seeing guys playing hard.
I've been watching him intentionally and I see a lot
of like really non competitive at bats. I see some
horrible defense. I see a lot of bad things there.
So I'm not seeing what Billy talked about.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, I mean, listen, it's it's e You're right, it's
not going to be a quick fix.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
There's no doubt about it.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
There needs to be changed, And listen, I love Buddy
as much as you do, but I understand why it
change is made, and you're probably right. They probably did
him a favor by letting him go. But something else
is going on in baseball. When I look at the Rockies, Joe,
in the first fifty years of the one hundred and
sixty two game schedule, there were seven teams that lost
one hundred and ten games. I'm pretty sure the Rockies
(17:29):
are going to lose one hundred and ten this year.
They will become the eighth team in the last twelve
years to lose one hundred and ten games. So seven
teams in the first fifty years and now more than
that in just the last twelve thirteen seasons. I'm not
sure what it is, but the bottom is getting worse
in baseball. You know, not everybody is just rebuilding and
(17:52):
you know, stripping things down the way the Astros bit
did back in twenty thirteen. But it's not a good
look for baseball to have non competitive teams because last year,
you know, the Seattle Mariners looked at the schedule and said,
we lost the playoffs because the AL Central was beating
up on the White Sox, and I'm telling you the
same thing is going to happen this year. The National
League West teams are absolutely going to destroy the Colorado Rockies.
(18:14):
They're eleven and two so far, and if you lose
a game to the Rockies, you feel like you're losing,
you know, losing ground in your division, and probably there's
going to be a playoff spot decided the National League
because somebody had more games against the Rockies and took
advantage of them.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah. I mean I've been part of that too. The
NL Central couple years ago with the Cubs in Cincinnati
was awful and we did we you did beat up
on them. And when there are teams like that, you,
like you said, if you lose to them, it's almost
like it's almost kind of like the end of the
world for a moment. It just it just shouldn't happen,
you believe that. So, yes, all those tremendous imbalances within
(18:49):
divisions could really create an advantage. And like you said,
do not permit a team maybe that's more worthy to
get to the playoffs only because their schedule wasn't as advantageous.
I would, you know, I'm just talking about this now
for me, this is my personal way of doing things.
I'd love to be able to just be like a
fly on the wall, not a guy in the stands
(19:11):
for at least a week, two weeks to watch a
team in order to tell you exactly what I think.
I mean, this is all perception based on I watch videos,
I watch the games on TV a little bit, and
I know people and I read. But there's nothing like
being in the stands and really observing all this stuff.
I mean, I'm an eyeball guy, and I still believe
in the eyeballs, and I believe if you train dryballs
(19:32):
to see things and you've had some experience that it
could really be beneficial. So we've talked about a lot
of different reasons why this one hundred and ten lost
thing is really disturbing and really falls under the category
what's in the best interest of the game, which used
to be really applied often back in the day. When
I first heard that, when was it Bully hw and
(19:52):
Kelly right? I mean, the fact that did not permit
a trade or whatever because it was not in the
best interest of the game. I would love to see
that phrase being brought back and implemented and enforced because
when you're a fan of these teams, I'm watching like
I watched videos and you see actually like people walking
in the gates and they probably show like the small
gaggle that walks in. You have to answer to this
(20:14):
group of people that are spending money and whatever in
their every year. They you know, the hope of at
least competing, which I still hate that just at least
competing phrase. But there's got to be some kind of
edict from the top that it's got to be more
than just showing up and collecting whatever. There's got to
be something done in the best interest of the game,
because it's not. You're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
One last note on the Rocky is speaking of eyeballs,
You got to give those fans credit. Man. It's still,
you know, an attraction for people in Denver to go
out to Coors Field and watch a baseball game. It's
a great venue, great plays to watch a game. You know,
as bad as they've been, Joe, they still have a
really loyal fan base. And last year, for instance, losing
(20:56):
more than one hundred games, they outdrew half of the
playoff teams, including the Mets and the Orioles. So Yeah,
there are tendances down fifteen percent since pre COVID levels,
but it's not like it's really cratered. So I got
to give those fans credit, and you know, maybe the
Rockies for their ballpark experience that it's still a destination
for people to go. You know, as pure baseball fans,
(21:19):
they should be demanding more though in terms of competitiveness. Hey,
we're going to take a quick break on the Book
of Joe. We get back Joe. I want to talk
about the Hall of Fame, but not the Baseball Hall
of Fame. To do that right after this, Welcome back
(21:45):
to the Book of Joe. This is one of our
favorite topics, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Sure you're going to go there.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Did you see the inductees?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
I did not. I'm sorry. How about on.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
The first ballot Chubby Checker he's in. I can't believe
he wasn't in before. He's eighty three years old and
he's still touring.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Joe, I love that. I remember the Twist when it
came out. We all had to do the twist and
it became the Peppermint Twist eventually, and it was such
a such a thing back in that day, and and
the tight suit with the thin tie and all that stuff.
It was so great, It was so cool and it
was wonderful. Was I remember that I was at Our
Lady of Grace at that time when I think it
(22:26):
all broke, and it was wonderful.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
And also on the first ballot they were voted in.
I'm happy about this one. Bad Company. Yeah, you got
to like that job. I mean, that's classic guitar riffs,
you know, put the windows down, put the stereo up.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
I just did that yesterday. I mean I didn't have
Bad Company on, but I got this really great system
in my room over here to the left, and I
was I stretched in the morning. I got this great
carpet to stretch on, and I put some albums on.
I got these big old Sirwin Vega nineteen eighty speakers
and a nice Yamaha Yamaha amp and I did put
on Springsteen. I put Asbury Park and I also put
(23:03):
on Pink Floyd Real Loud, real loud. It was outstanding.
I put one more and I can't remember, Oh, roberta
flat the first time ever saw your face on this
brand new album. First it was a pink album, but
it was brand new, was right out of the container,
out of the the album cover. It was so clear.
I could not you forget. Sometimes you put on these
(23:25):
other albums that slightly used, you get that little scratch
as it comes on, like with the Spring Seen album.
I got that little scratch, scratch scratch, and then eventually
here it comes Bruce. But the roberta Flac first time
ever on a Pink album, never been played before. Wow,
this sound was incredible. So that's the part of the past.
And I had to get up up the floor, changed
(23:45):
the album, turned it over. H oh the other Who
I put the Who on? Also, Yes, it was but
real lout, real out, because I'm in a spot, it
doesn't matter, nobody's gonna hear me. And it was great.
I wanted to get pumped up for the day and
I did well.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Done better than coffee. You're almost as good as coffee.
And also in the category of musical influencer, Warren Zevon.
Now a lot of people think, oh were walls of
London right Warren Zevon, Man, he was so much more
than that. One of the great singers, songwriters, and I
know Joe this this goes back to a sweet spot
(24:19):
for you talking about southern California, the LA scene there
in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Get this.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
On his first album, he had Jackson Brown, Steven Nicks,
Lindsay Buckingham, Don Henley, Glent Fry, Linda Ronstadt, Bonnie Raitt,
Phil Everley, and Carl Wilson. Come on, I mean, that's
an all star team. He was just connected to so
many people, so many people wanted to be around Warren
(24:46):
zevonn He was such a talent. Probably one of your
favorite songs, Poor Poor Pitiful Me.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
That was his song. Yeah, he wrote a ton of
songs for Linda Ronstad.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
You just just I'm just that's the name. When you
mentioned all that, folks, I got admit. I've always had
a crush on this woman and still do. I know
she's in the Parkinson situation now, but to me, she
was the voice of that particular generation. To this day,
she comes on to radio. I listened to Serious Letter, Pandora,
or I'll put her station on. She stops me every time,
(25:18):
her range, her attitude. You know, growing up in Tucson.
She conciones Papa, which pasre papa, the song Mexican songs
that she did a long long time. I mean I listen.
I could listen to this woman all day launch her voice,
I mean, from her to Lady Gaga. For me, she
was the best. She did it the best. She was
(25:39):
this little person with I mean, for me, one of
the best voices I've ever heard. When I got to
the Angels, how about this is all naive? I am,
this is my second time through. She's from Tucson, right,
so I ARTI Raino's from Tucson. So I get the
spring training in twenty twenty whatever it was, and I say, hey,
do you happen to know Linda Ronstad? Saying that you're
both from Tucson. He just looked at me, like, what
(26:01):
are you nuts? Because I was hoping that he could
set up and arrange where I could meet Linda Ronstad
or africame to a game. I didn't realize to what
extent she was ill enough that she couldn't do that,
But I was that much impressed that I've always wanted
to meet her because to me, she's where it begins
and ends for female vocalists.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, just a beautiful voice.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Warren Zevon, by the way, he was born in Chicago
and then he went to LA and he dropped out
of high school to go to New York to try
to make it as a singer songwriter. As a kid,
he studied piano under igor Stravinsky. How's that for training,
So he didn't really pan out. Things didn't pan out
in New York so much so that's when he went
back to LA and he roomed with Stevie Nicks and
(26:43):
Lindsay Buckingham.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
That's how this started that arrangement there.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
But I'm always a fan, Joe of great musicianship and
especially great writing. You know those singer songwriters. I mean
it almost sounds archaic just that phrase, like who is
a singer songwriter?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Now?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And people are gonna tell me yea, they know this guy,
that guy, this person, this woman.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
But back in the day, talking to seventies and eighties,
the world, the musical world was populated with singers songwriter geniuses.
And that really was Warren z more in Zevon. When
you go back and look at his work, I mean, lawyers,
guns and money, fantastic, excitable boy. I mean the opening
line of Where Rolls in London was chosen by people
(27:29):
in England as the best opening line of any song.
I mean, it's just amazing that the words he put
to paper and then to zong, coming from a.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Writer himself, I cannot agree with you more. I mean,
I've offered made these arguments. I started out even the Stones,
probably the first group that made an impression on me.
Can't get no satisfaction. And then of course the Beatles,
and then here came Simon and Garfunkel, who I still
to this day listened to almost I listened to them
as often as I watched Seinfeld. Pretty much. I'm not
(27:59):
always impressed with Simon and Garfunkel. Then you can move
it all the way through. Man brought up Jackson Brown,
you bring up the Crosby, Stills, and Nash loved all
these guys, the Almond Brothers. But it is, it's every
one of the groups. We can name them all. They
were all distinctively unique to their sound and their messaging.
That's what I think is missing today, because when I understand,
(28:21):
there's a small group of people writing most of the
songs today, both lyrically and the song itself, the music
of the song, So that I think is what's missing.
That's and again we've I made the comp with cars.
I mean, I'm looking at where there's gonna be like
three D cars being made right now. They're gonna print
them out of three D and then make these cars.
I mean, come on it. Really, we constantly want to
(28:43):
subtract the human element from everything, and while we do this,
you get a ubiquitous sameness. That's it's all that you're
seeing there. There's a lack of imagination. And I'll argue
that with anybody. So it's easy to turn back the
clock that group right their sixties, seventies, eighties, and then
to the nineties. And eventually as we continue to go forward,
(29:04):
we go backward because we become more of the same
and less of individuals, and we lack the charisma. Cannot
agree with you more man the songwriting, music words they matter,
and individuality, individual sounds matter, as opposed to everybody just
trying to synthesize the same stuff all the time. Which
does bother me. And why do we listen to oldies
(29:26):
station and not contemporary stations because they're not nearly as interesting.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Think about when you got an album back in the
seventies or eighties, especially the seventies, right and you had
the liner to the album right, and you were just
praying the lyrics are on there, and you would read
those lyrics like you were reading poetry.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You could enjoy the song without actually hearing the music
because you got lost in the words. And I don't
know about you, Joe. If I got an album and
it didn't have the song lyrics on the line, I
was disappointed.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Man.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I wanted to see the words.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Agreed, And there's also a photo too, But you're pointing
out I mean, this is my own opinion, but there's
got to be a certain I don't the words suffered
maybe not the right word, but to earn it or
have failed or constantly failed matters. I think when you're
becoming an artist and you're attempting to do something, whether
it's writing, singing or whatever, but primarily writing putting pen
(30:25):
to paper, there's a lot of life experience involved in that.
There's a lot of you're not good enough involved in that.
There's a lot of being turned down, maybe a broken relationship,
and all of that tragedy in your life involved in that.
So I don't know that that's tapped into today as
much as it had been. I think that's the really
(30:47):
roote essence of all this wonderful artistry we've had in
the past. Things were earned. I don't know that. And yeah,
this is not an age thing. This is being I
think I'm kind of pragmatic and open minded about this stuff.
I really believe the group that came up back when
they did the first the first I've talked about is
the first album, the first book. Wow, I've always wanted
(31:10):
that one because to me, that's like all these years
pent up years that they were writing down in notebooks,
jogging things down on napkins, and all of a sudden
they get this opportunity, they put it together, and all
of a sudden they got to hit. That to me
is really the root and soul of a lot of
these artists. And that's why you know, the first book,
like John Grisham's rout in a thousand books, but I
(31:31):
have to go back to the original books with him,
the firm whatever and read that stuff, because that's that's
who these people are. And that's really After that it
becomes more industrial. You got to like, you gotta do this,
I got to keep it going. But those first moments, man,
those are the ones that really impressed me. And that's
why I really still listen to this stuff. It never
(31:53):
gets old. It's timeless. There's universality about it that will
never grow old. Our classic rock today is equivalent to me,
is of the classical music you know, back Beethoven, Wagner, whatever,
back in the today. Timeless. It's going to stand a
test of time, this particular era, I'd say between the
sixties into the seventies for sure. Maybe it's going to
dash into the eighties a bit, but there's a timelessness
(32:14):
about it that well, there's always going to be an
OLDI station playing this one hundred years from now.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
The Struggle, right, we talk about it a lot here
on the book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
The Struggle and you know the upside to struggling and listen,
you talk about classical music. Brahms took twenty years to
write his first symphony. Twenty years to write his first symphony.
And I'll give you a couple of lines. I have
to do this from Warren Zevon. I mentioned were wolves
of London. I saw a were wolf with a Chinese
(32:45):
menu in his hand, walking the streets of Soho in
the rain. He was looking for the place called Lee.
Who folks going to get a big dish of beef
chow Maine.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And here's one of my favorites, Joe.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
We buy books because we believe we're buying the time
to read them.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I mean, come on, I mean I see that. To
me is that's a person that really is just observing
everything around him and everything around him. All these observations
he's taken the heart and then maybe jogging this down
or it's it's it's embedded in his mind. So when
it comes down to, like you said, pen the paper,
they just start coming out because he's had these life
(33:25):
experiences where he really did pay attention. Whereas today we're
gonna rely on AI. We're going to rely on mechanics
to write for us, to create for us. And I mean,
you know, reading about you know, uh the uh not
Millennium gen Z, guys and women all of a sudden
they want them. They're gonna they're okay with relationships based
on AI. It's like it's insanity where we're going right
(33:47):
now and not really realizing we're spinning out of control
with all this crap. There warn't xenons of the world.
I mean, this is the stuff that gosh, I mean again, timelessness.
You wish it would never go away. There's got to
be a moment in the near future hopefully that really
permits us to not get caught up in this hamster
(34:10):
wheel of so called progress where we're becoming less and
less important as human beings. Our minds are becoming less
and less important because relying on all this other stuff
to conclude for us, and I can't stand that, quite frankly,
for somebody else to conclude for me, or a machine
to conclude for me is really repulsive.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I'm with you, and I think I don't know how
this changes, but we really have to de emphasize putting
the emphasis on convenience and speed and hacks. Right, I
really lost the value of kind of that stick toitiveness,
where the reward is putting in the work and the
payoff at the end rather than how quickly can I
(34:52):
get there? What hacks can I use, whether it's AI,
whatever it is. People are in such a hurry, and
that includes music making, right, I mean, there's formulas, there's algorithms,
Just plug it in, sell a few albums, You're done.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Nobody stays together anymore, so.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
The idea that things are worth working for I don't
know where along the line.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We lost that job, but we've got to get it back.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
There's a tremendous amount of value in failure. It's don't
overlook it. Ever. You primarily learn through your failures as
opposed to your positive outcomes. So I am so about that.
I could recap boringly all the different times that I
failed in order to get to become a major league manager.
(35:36):
Was a fifty one, has some good runs after that,
But I could recap all the awful moments where you
barely could afford Christmas for your kids. You know, you
can't even transportation back home this ye your parents over
holidays cost so much. You put on the credit card
anyway because you had to do it, or even the
credit card build it. But I know what's happening now
that you did as a kid to order to put
(35:59):
a couch in your house whatever, then you have to
pay these exorbitan rates. I mean, we all done it.
It's still happening right now. But you got to go
through these really high levels of failure to become a success.
I believe, and I don't think you just suggested. I
don't know that today's world really wants to take the
time to fail they want to go right to success,
and it's no different than guys getting major league managerial jobs.
(36:22):
I'm just going to jump to baseball without having the
opportunity to fail on a minor league level or fail
in the scouting profession where you look at your draft
list that you turn in and you find out that Wow,
like Jeene Thompson said, don't put the guy on the
list unless you really want to, because that's the guy
they're going to draft for you. These are like valuable
lessons learned that we need to appreciate again, and that
(36:45):
to me would be the bedrock the foundation of really
rebuilding all of this to the point where you could
see the light at the end of the tunnel and
you could feel good about yourself because you really accomplish
something through your own thoughts and deeds based on your
own life experiences.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And with that, we're gonna take a quick break on
the Book of Joe. We get back and we're going
to continue with our manager theme. I saw an old
school managerial.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Rant the other day. Boy, I missed those.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
We'll talk about that right after this.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
One of your former players, Rocco Baldelli gave me an
entertaining rant the other day, Joe, I'm doing a game
for Fox in Minnesota. Adrian Johnson was the homeplate umpire,
and I didn't think he was having that bad of
a game. Actually, I hadn't noticed anything. You know, sometimes
you're following along and you're like, man, this guy's off today,
or this guy's really good today. It was just kind
(37:52):
of non the script. It was fine by me, but
not apparently to Rocco Baldelli. There was one strike call
that he especially didn't like. I'm sure it wasn't the
first time he piped up. So he comes running out
and boy, a lot of his adjectives started with the
letter F. I mean, this went on for a while,
and just to cap it off, it was perfect theater.
(38:12):
You just don't see this anymore. As he's walking towards
the dugout at the end of his day, thrown out
of the game by injury, Johnson he takes his cap
off and he dramatically flings it over his head, just.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Like by the way Mary Tyler Moore.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Since we were in Minneapolis, it was a beautiful thing.
We don't see that really, really, I don't think often enough. Listen,
you don't want to encourage, you know, just for the
sake of going out there making a scene, but why
not blow off some steam.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
It's part of the game's tradition. What's interesting to me, Joe.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Is Adrian Johnson's previous game before this one was in
New York. Yankees Padres and Mike Shilt had come out
of the dugout, and before he went into his tirade
to Adrian Johnson behind the plate, he threw away his
lineup card. Then he took off his glasses and threw
away his glasses, being careful enough to make sure he
(39:06):
threw them into the grass so they weren't scratched. I'd
never seen a guy to get himself ready for his
argument whip off his glasses and throw them away. So Rocco,
Mike Schilt, thank you for that, although Adrian Johnson probably
not thanking you.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Yeah, I was watching that game with the Yankees, and
I think Shilty was right. Beyond that, I'm so proud
of Roco. Providence was said win Socket Woon Socket Rhode.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Island one socket Rocket.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Yeah, I mean all the folks back home had to
be very proud. I mean Rocco is one of the
most civil members of the Major League Baseball family, and
I love the fact that he lost his mind a
little bit. Roco was one of my all time favorites.
It's just just on a side note to me, if
that guy did not get hurt, he'd have been like
one of the top ten players of his era, no question.
(39:53):
He was that talented. Every part of the game was
that good, and nobody talks about it. He was that good.
It says that's the biggest shame ever that he the
mitochondria concerns that he had and how it kept him down.
But I as a manager on the field, I would
watch him and I thought he defined Joe Demagio to me,
(40:13):
only probably a little bit bigger, stronger, possibly, But the
way he moved and everything he did was that good.
And it's too bad we got cheated out of all that.
But all the managers, yeah, you got to lose your mind.
Sometimes you have to lose your mind. You can't keep
it inside, and it's got to be extemporaneous. I mean
there's times I did plan those things a little bit
because I just had enough and I said, the first opportunity,
(40:35):
I'm out there, But the best ones are the extemporaneous
moments when you weren't. You're just in there enjoying the game,
and all of a sudden you just lose your mind.
And the players do appreciate that. I really believe that too,
But you got to get it off your chest afterwards.
I'd go inside have a shot of Crown Royal or
something like that, just to calm you down, because you've
got to talk to the press afterwards. But it's that intense, man,
(40:57):
you get going like that, you're shaken. You come up
the field, you think yourself that I really say that,
But just then you stay to the club, just give me,
give me a shot of something that I got to
settle down. And that's just the way. It's just the truth,
and it's a beautiful part of the game, and I'd
love to see more of it. But with all technology
involved and more tech involved in our game, the less
emotion you're going to see. So when you guess to
(41:18):
the point of automatic ball strike stuff, and if that
becomes even more common and useful are utilized, you're going
to see even less of this. The more tech involved,
the less emotion from humans.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, just a couple of notes on Rocco as well.
Bill Belichick called him the best athlete he ever saw.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
I mean, he was that special.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, And he's huge, as you know, Fish fan, the
band Fish. I mean, he's been to a gazillion concerts.
And I mentioned to Roco that Fish actually was on
the ballot for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
They won the fan vote, which is just a small
portion that it's basically a committee that makes the final vote,
(42:00):
but didn't get in. And as Rocco said, knowing Fish
as an all fan, it's like they're probably very good
with that, the fact that they didn't get in.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
But you mentioned the strike zone, Joe.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
It's interesting because what I'm hearing and noticing myself, and
maybe some of this is confirmation bias. The strike zone
on the edges, especially the bottom, is not the same
as before. And you know when the umpires were graded before,
they had a buffer essentially the size of a baseball,
(42:31):
like a five inch buffer.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
So if the ball was five inches just below.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
The hairline of the strike zone and they called it
a strike, that counted as a correct call. And they're
trying to ace the tests, so to speak, because they
get graded after each game. And what they've done now
after they had the trial run in the spring training
with the Challenge system, is now calling a much more
literal strike zone, so that buffer zone is gone. They're
(42:57):
anticipating the fact that Challenge system will be in play
for next year, So you're training the umpires now to
make sure you're literally calling a zone with no buffer zone.
And what pitchers and managers and hitters are noticing is
that fifty to fifty ball now is not being called
a strike that's on the edges or maybe just slightly
off the edge, because that's the way AI is going
(43:20):
to see it next year.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
So far, it.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Hasn't translated to me in terms of more offense. Batting, average,
run scored, slugging are slightly down from last year's number.
Now we have to give it time because in the
summer we know offense goes up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
But that's what I'm seeing here. Maybe it's anecdotal.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
I think there is some data that teams have that
show the strike zone is a little bit smaller this year,
but it's all for the coming of AI and the
Challenge System.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
How about Chase, I mean that would be part of
it too. I mean, okay, maybe that it's a little
bit more finite within the strike zone, but how much
more are people or hitters swinging outside of the strike
zone based on breaking balls and of course velocity just too,
because you're saying you would think smaller zone, greater offense
or production, but you're not necessarily seeing anything substantial. So
(44:10):
I wonder if chase is up based on a lot
of other elements, that's kind of mitigating the smaller strike
zone or making it moot the fact that it doesn't
really matter. Just again, when it comes down to smaller
strike zone, if you're locating, if the ball is located
well in a good spot, it's still not going to
matter a whole lot, I don't think, But you're right.
(44:31):
I mean, the five inch buffer was a joke. We
knew it was a joke, but then again, it was
the same for everybody, and every umpire was different. Man,
we skip those heat maps and you would see the
heat maps knowing where the umpire was more liberal. And
we've talked about this also where right handed picture versus
the right hand hitter, a left handed hitter than a
left handed pitcher versus left nd righty. The umpire had
like four different strike zones based on all these different
(44:53):
moments with the handedness of the pitcher and the batter,
so you had to look at all these different things,
and you wanted your catcher to adjust accordingly. Some guys
are really tight on the inside edge were which I
normally saw was tight on the inside edge right on right,
more liberal away as an example, and then like sweeping
pitches away like left on left, maybe more liberal outside
(45:14):
on a breaking ball, you would just try to find
wherever that edge was. You try to find it based
on the heat map. So they're trying to in a
good way. They're trying to make this more uniform. I
understand that completely. But even though the strike zone may
be more finite or consistent, I'm curious about off how
often guys are chasing outside of the zone compared to
(45:35):
the past, That would be that would be interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, that number actually hasn't changed all that much. It's
traditionally around thirty one percent. Last year was thirty one
point eight. This year's thirty one point one, So the
chase rate really hasn't gone up. Where the game has
changed now is pitch shaping, though I mean, we talk
all the time here about there's so much more spin
in the game today. Maybe they're just taking these pitches
(45:58):
and just trying to, you know, zero in on something
in the zone. But the chase rate itself is pretty
much been kind of held standard.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
But I agree with you.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
It's me the hitting environment is so hard in baseball today,
pitchers just keep getting an edge on hitters.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
In my book, how.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
About like ex velocities like this ball put in plays
or anything different on that.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
I have to check that out. It's a good question.
I'm not sure that has changed. I wouldn't expect that
to change all too much. Are you thinking about torpedo bets.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
I'm just thinking in general, I mean, why there shouldn't
be a significant You would think there'd be a little
bit of a jack based on the fact that the
strike zone is being called differently and hitters should have
a little bit better edge in regards to if there's
not more chase, you think they'd hit the ball more
consistently well, based on the fact that they're not getting
the pitchers aren't getting so much on the edges. I'm
(46:49):
just just curious. But we talked about this, and it's true,
the hitters really get very little analytically from the world
where the pitcher and defense they're pretty much the superstars.
They get this stuff that really does make a difference.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Well, wraps up are edition of you know, Manager Check
as far as it goes, because you talked about two
teams changing managers that you know, nobody really thinks of
them as playoff teams. So I'm not sure they're chasing
wins as much as they're just you know, kind of
giving the door to somebody who didn't have a lot
to do with where these teams are at.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
In terms of the Pirates and the Rockies.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
I'm not sure if you had anything in mind when
you chose your thought of the day, Joe, but when
it came to managers, but what do you have for
us today to and this edition of the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
I think I'm attacking AI. We were there a little bit, yeah,
you know, and I there's a couple but the one
that I really from Gertrude Stein, it just the one
that really stuck for me today was about where we
we what we see is not exactly what's going on.
It's kind of a thought and it came up with this.
Everybody gets so much information all day long that they
(47:57):
lose their common sense. So, you know, we're so flooded.
I mean, I was thinking about, like, I'm I'm a
I'm a culprit right now. Really, I watch a lot
of news on television, I do. I watch that more
than I watch baseball, which is like ridiculous. I watch
news even more than Seinfeld right now, which is unbelievable.
But they're getting We're flooded with so much information all
(48:18):
day long, and of course there's bias involved. You've got
to choose your bias how it lines up to your
own lens of the world. But why you do that.
I think it's really important to absolutely listen to the
other side, and when I do, I find out that
it really kind of galvanizes what I do believe by
listening to what I believe is the side that's not
(48:38):
making any sense. But there's so much information that I
think that people are so influenced by what we're hearing
that they fail to make up their own minds. That's
I think that's the point I was trying to get at.
So I really would encourage and I believe it's you know,
when we take in all this stuff because it's coming
from so many different directions. Where in the past we
had a way for the morning newspaper, you were too
(49:00):
busy during the day to listen to any kind of
news radio kind of stuff. At the end of the day,
there was like Huntley Brinkley at the end of the
day or whatever. There's three News, Walter Cronkite that was
your news, and maybe the local news at the end
of the night, possibly, But there wasn't all this glut
of constantly streaming news and information to us to the
(49:22):
point where we're becoming so inundated with that it's hard
to make up your own mind anymore. And I just
I've always been about that, make up your own mind.
We've kind of touched on that when I was ranting
about the Rockies doing what they think is right. So
I'm just I would just hope that we continue to
use our common sense, our own sense of our group
of sensibilities that we've nurtured over years based on where
(49:44):
we're from and who we grew up around. I just
see that as not being as important anymore, and I
think it needs to be more important so that we
can stay grounded and what we believe in and not
be afraid to argue and disagree and with somebody that
you totally don't believe their set of values whatever, have
(50:05):
that argument, but they go for a beer or sit
down and have a nice glass of wine and understand.
It's important to be able to do that, to have
counter arguments, counter completely polar opposite kind of views of
the world. But still at the end of the day,
if you've had this good discussion, let's let's just agree
to disagree at this point, let's go have that beer
(50:26):
and talk about the Seinfeld episode I watched last night.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Well, Joe, hopefully when you're getting this this this news
fix associated that you have right that not too much
of it is actually pundits because we've lost the what
I call it media literacy, you know, to understand the
difference between news and blather, because the news is presented
(50:52):
as blather with these so called pundits, right, that's the danger,
and we really have to start teaching children in school.
I'm not being joking about this, how to differentiate, to
use critical thinking and not just turn your brain off
and listen to people blather with hot take opinions and
(51:13):
accept that as quote unquote news that's dangerous.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
Yeah. And then and it's it's formulating opinions, and it's
it's creating more polarity regarding what we believe in and
who you should like or not like, who I could
associate with or not associate with. It's that part to
me is I'm absolutely insane. I never remember that as
a kid, or even not even beyond kid ism when
I became, you know, a teenager. Then you go to college.
I never really did like somebody because they didn't agree
(51:37):
with me. I mean, I don't. I've never understood that concept.
I not at all. I've always enjoyed when somebody and
I still do when I when somebody disagrees with me,
I'm fine with that. I encourage it. And then eventually
I could, you know, weigh that and say, good point,
Maybe I need to include that in my thought process
and my belief system. Where nah, it just reinforces exactly
(52:00):
what I believe. And that's the that's the point when
you're talking about the blad rors and the pundits as
opposed to somebody that's responsible, and that's that's up to
us to make our What am I seeing right here?
What do I think this person is he is he
a blatherer or is he a pundit, or is he
somebody that really has give me giving it to me straight,
looking at both sides of the world and just trying
(52:21):
to keep by youse out, which is very difficult, but
I really I attempt to do that myself, so I
have my intent up all the time. And it's it
all starts with baseball too. It's not just in the
real world. I you know, we talk about other things
going on in the game. I've seen this over the
last at least ten to fifteen years. Is where it began,
where it became more. You know, the groups that excuse me,
(52:46):
groups that took charge, and it was always an agenda
based from that group, and if you did not jump
on with that particular method of thought, you were really
thought about less and eventually taken out of there. Back
in the day, I wanted people in the room that
totally disagree to disagree with me to the very end.
I want disagreement. I love disagreement. So it's part of
(53:09):
the way of the world right now, and hope we
get by that. But the end of the day, folks,
make up your own mind, don't let anybody make it
up for you.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
That is a quart of the day.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
I'm gonna go with Joe Madden as my thought of
the day, so thanks for ending it that way.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Joe you got We'll see you next time on the
Book of.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
Joe wait to wind me up. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey Daron, welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
To the Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci,
and of course Joe Madden and Joe. I guess it's
that time of year, about almost a quarter of the
way through the season, and managers are taking the hit
and of all places, in Pittsburgh and in Colorado, two
teams that nobody expected to contend are saying we need
(00:39):
a new voice to try to win more games. Pittsburgh,
let Derek Shelton go. Colorado, let's Buddy Black go. After
a long time there successfully nine years with the Rockies,
starting with the first two making the playoffs. Your quick
takes Joe on, You've been there before. Managers getting the
pink slip in the course of the season never easy.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
It's always a blow to your ego somewhat. And the
best way, if you can process it, is to not
take it personally and just as long as you can
answer the questions that you know you put your program
out there, you actually attacked the day in a way
that you felt good about. Now, both of these guys
are friends. I mean I Shelty was my hitting coach
with the Rays back in the two thousand and eight,
(01:24):
nine ten whatever in that area. And then Pepe buddy
Black and I was served together with the Angels. So
these guys are like good friends, and so I feel
for them. I feel for them, I feel for their families. However,
after saying all of that, I'm happy for them. I mean,
both situations got kind of difficult. It's more difficult to
imagine Colorado turning it around right now as compared to
(01:44):
what the Pirates maybe can't a bit. I don't see
them making that much noise for the rest of this year,
but we'll see. They have the pitching staff to get
a little bit fun. But you know, Pepe in Colorado
that was hard to watch. I mean, every day I
pick up the paper, I look at the record and
they were getting annihilated. Was just like losing. And I'm
(02:06):
thinking to myself, how do you go in that locker room?
And people have asked me that, and I've given different answers,
but it's not easy. It's not easy to do that.
You need total support from those people around you in
order to survive that moment and also to continue to
believe in you. That's part of it. And realize in
both situations you look at the manager taking the hit
(02:27):
for it, but understand that it's not you want to
give them full responsibility for the lack of success, and
don't do that. It's not true. There's a lot of
other culpable people involved. So in a perverse way, I'm happy,
especially for Buddy Black where Derek is younger and he's
really trying to get a strong stronghold on being a
(02:47):
major league manager. I think he might get another opportunity.
But both situations were really difficult to watch.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, both have real systemic problems in the organization that
we really have nothing to do with the manager. We
knew going into this year, Joe, you mentioned the Pittsburgh
Pirates pitching.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
It's good. I wouldn't. It's great.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
It's not necessarily deep, but they have really good arms,
and we knew that they were way short offensively and
really almost nothing was done about that, and they they've
turned out to be even worse offensively than we thought.
That's not certainly on Derek Shelton. Apparently Derek Shelton was
on the last year of his deal and they have
Don Kelly there, you know who you know kind of
(03:26):
a Jim Leland disciple, I think is a great baseball
mine runs their spring training. He's a local kid from
a kid and a local guy from Mount Lebanon, and
I think they realized this guy was a talent right
and an ascending talent in terms of going to be
a manager someday, and they wanted it to happen there,
so they saw an opportunity. I like the hiring of
(03:48):
Don Kelly. I think he is a smart baseball guy.
I just don't like the situation there because they just
have not invested in the infrastructure to find more offense there.
They've I can't even say, Joe, They've tinkered on the
margins trying to find offense there. They basically went to
the season without first basement. Don't know how you actually
do that. They looked into Anthony Rizzo and passed on that.
(04:08):
There's a whole lot of things they could have done
to help this team. I'm not saying going out there
and get Pete Alonzo, but when you're the Pittsburgh Pirates,
you have to understand you have Paul Skins, a trend,
you know, transcending generational type pitching talent. You know, a
Steven Strasburg type arm and the clock is already ticking
as to when he leaves the Pittsburgh Pirates. Similar to
(04:29):
Garrett Cole, You've got to take advantage of this narrow
window here. One thing I always say, Joe, these teams
Colorado and Pittsburgh and the like, stop talking to me
about trying to build a sustainable winner. You are not
the Los Angeles Dodgers. You don't have the resources to
have a quote unquote sustainable winner.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
That's just execut you speak there.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Try to find a core group when you've got someone
like Skins to build around you knows, send in a
two to four year window around a cor young players
before they get too expensive and have to move on,
and then try to keep the down cycles as short
as possible with the next group behind them. But you're
not going to build a sustainable winner in places like
(05:15):
Pittsburgh and Colorado.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, and just backtracking just a bit on what you
were talking about the first basement situation. I mean, we've
talked about that earlier in the year. It's getting to
the point where analytics believes you could put anybody at
first base. I really believe that, and I think for
their perspective. They bought into that theory also, so I
think that's part of the reason why they just thought, oh, well,
we'll find somebody that can hit a little bit there,
(05:37):
catch the ball a little bit there, but we're not
going to pay for that particular service. Yeah, I listen.
It's they can't compete Dodgers on a bunch of different levels,
right from the very top with Andrew and the kind
of dough that they do have. You know, I may
be naive with all this, but I'm rooted in the
(05:58):
research and development component of our game. I mean, for me,
in a place like Pittsburgh is all about research and development.
I mean, I would put so much emphasis on my
minor league system, my scouting system, and getting and building
this group from within that's going to permeate and continually
be able to supplant or replace people that, like you're
(06:21):
talking about, may leave in several years. And then with that,
that's when you more judiciously ring in that free agent
and again by a couple of middle class guys. Just
get a couple of the middle class in there, that
salary range where it's a little bit uncomfortable maybe, but
knows how to play baseball can influence the rest of
your team in a way that's going to be beneficial
(06:41):
down the road. So I still believe in that method.
I mean, look at the Rays. I think that's what
the Race kind of do all the time. I think
Milwaukee's kind of in that group right now. Both are
relatively successful, And again, what is success for a lot
of these groups anymore? That's the part that's really confusing.
Being successful. You talked about sustainable, but that's probably they're
(07:03):
just trying to be five hundred on an annual basis.
What is sustainable for me? It's like every year I
would go to Springteter I mean every year, maybe maybe
not my first year with the Race, but maybe not
quite the second. But I always talk about the playoffs
and then I will talk about the World Series in
the same breath. I don't think they really believe that stuff.
And if you did believe it and not just give
(07:24):
it lip service, what do you do then to be
a participant at the end of the year, being part
of the dance, being part of the tournament, whatever you
want to say? So I listen to me. I love
the concept of building from the bottom up. I love
the minor leagues, and I love scouting. I without being there,
I don't know, you know, what they think of it
and and how they're really applying the tenants of baseball
(07:47):
to their developmental process. But places like that have to
not kind of they have to be fully immersed in that.
And and I don't I don't know how much they are.
You know better than I do, because you know you
got your figure on the pulse a bit better than I.
But I my Pittsburgh in those places, I got to
start right there.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I agree with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
And that's why we need to talk about the Rockies now,
because let's start with this. This is sort of a
disclaimer you have to give them. I think it's tougher
to win in Colorado than any other place. Right when
you're playing at altitude, it's just abnormal baseball. So you
have to start with the fact that they're playing uphill
(08:29):
from the start, pitches just don't move as much. The
recovery on the physical taxing on the body is just
is something that other teams and players do not have
to face.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So start with that.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
With that mind, then you should have the biggest most
robust analytics department a player development apartment in all of baseball.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
They don't. They have one of the smallest analytical departments.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
They don't have a scout in the Far East where
you should be getting players and at least being in
that market, which they are not. You know, to me, Joe,
you have to build that team around freakish athletes with
strength just to survive at altitude, right. And if you
wanted to go out there and buy players in the market,
(09:15):
like Chris Bryant, that's a mistake because you're banking that
players who made their their money and their their reputation
at sea level, that there's a lack of predictability in
their numbers once they go and play in Colorado. And
it's not just you know, batting average, home runs RBIs.
It's how they hold up in the grind of a season,
(09:36):
especially for pitchers. So that's why it's more important than
ever that you develop a certain type of player. And
I'll go back to what Jim Leland said about coors Field.
They built the wrong ballpark there. They built it too
darn big. There's too much space in the outfield.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
He said.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
They should have built another Fenway Park with small fences
and large walls. Because there's too many hits that have
fall on like gigantic outfield. Nobody ever gets thrown out
on the bases. You can walk from second to home
on any kind of a base hit, and that works
against the Rockies as well. So you have to populate
that roster which is freakish athletes who can cover ground,
(10:13):
hold up to the grind of a season, and then
you had the whole seesaw effect of going back between
home and the road because the balls are moving completely
differently back and forth through the course of a twenty
six week season. So that's why building from within is
even more important than ever for the Rockies.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Tommy, I cannot disagree with anything you said. That's a
great recap. I think all the points that you made,
and when you talked about Jimmy Leland's definition of that ballpark,
immediately I thought about the Dudley Dome in El Paso.
I managed in Midland, Texas, and the Deadly Dome was
kind of like that. The Deadly Dome, which was almost
on the Mexican border, was short left field and was
(10:49):
almost like a square or rectangle, and there was the
outfield wall did not bow out. It was straight across
straight across from the left field line to the center
field area, and man, the ball would just it would fly.
It flies in El Paso like would fly in Colorado,
and it was a really difficult ballpark to manage it.
(11:09):
I mean, as a manager in that ballpark, I always said,
you just try to get your team in position to
kick the last field goal. The same was in Midland. Midland,
Texas are the same way. At that time was a
one tier wall. They eventually built it up into a
higher Fenway like wall. For my first year, first two
years there, I think the wall was not high. So
(11:30):
pop ups are going out of the ballpark. Is really managerially,
I'm telling you, man, it's very difficult to be strategic.
It just is because you could do all the right
things and a guy could get jammed and the balls
popped up and all of a sudden, the wind blows
it and it's gone out of the ballpark. So it is.
My point is it is a tough place to play
and to really I'm just talking from the managerial seat.
(11:52):
It's hard to be consistent with your approach because what
you believe is going to work a lot of times
maybe could have worked, but the elements really do conspire
against you, and that's just that that ballpark and then
you so brought up and I totally believe this. When
you go on the road, you get used to playing
one kind of game at that ballpark, and all of
a sudden, you go to sea level teams was Shreveporto, Tulsa,
(12:15):
or Beaumont. Beaumont was a double deck ballpark with the
and the ball didn't carry in. The mosquitoes were like
little Cessana's flying in out there were so big. So
you go to those ballparks and the ball didn't go.
So you've been teaching yourself at home to try to
get the ball in their lift the ball whatever. Then
you go on the road and play these ballparks and
if you tick that same approach there, out you're out.
(12:37):
You're out. The ball's not going anywhere. You're out. So
you have to play two completely different kind of games.
And that's that's not just that's not fantasy, that's reality.
So again, you're right, I mean, build your whatever these
athletes are, whatever you want them to look like, whatever
kind of game you're gonna play, step outside of the box.
You can't think the way the Dodgers think you can't
(12:57):
think the way any Sea level team thinks. You just can't.
You can't. It's a dip. I actually played in Boulder
for two summers in Boulder, Colorado, right up the street.
It should be a destination place if you set this
up right, we're talking about like far East. I believe
that they don't even go there because they think they
don't have a chance to lure anybody to come to
(13:18):
play in Colorado. I would bet that's part of the conversation,
no question. But you've got to get beyond these walls
that you're building and understand and whatever you believe is
right to do this and win, to hear, do that,
attack that, stay away from the way everybody else is thinking,
because your situation is that unique.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I actually think Joe the Rockies go too far in
terms of not doing what other teams do. I think
it's the most insular organization in baseball.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
You know, Bill Schmid, the GM that has been there forever.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Chris Forbes, the player development guy, has been there forever.
Warren Shaefer, who was just named the manager to replace
Buddy Black, has been there nineteen years. He's been with
no other organization as a player minor league manager or
major league coach need to go find the brightest minds
out there, whether it's the Yankees, the Rays, the Dodgers,
(14:10):
the Guardians, and find out what they don't know. You know,
you know, one of the things that smart people really
do is admit what they don't know, and they don't
have to be the smartest person in the room. They
compliment their own intelligence with people who can kind of
complete the circle. And I don't think the Rockies do that.
I think they really need to expand their horizons. Doesn't
(14:33):
mean you're copying anybody else, but asking the question, what
do other teams know about winning on the margins that
we don't know. I don't know that the Rockies stand
for anything, Joe, I really don't know if they have
a philosophy.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Bill Schmidt said, you know, guys are playing hard. First
of all, Playing hard to me is not a compliment.
That's a bare minimum for a professional athlete. And he said,
guys like the direction that we're going. Really, you're the
worst organization in baseball for the last seven years. You're
coming off the last two seasons have been the worst
years in Rockies franchise history. You're heading towards probably the
(15:08):
worst ever, maybe worse than White Sox last year, and
you like the direction.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
The team is going. Don't give me that.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
You've got to really have a complete mindset change here
going forward.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
You are not going in the right direction.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, you got to be very very honest about it.
I mean your explanation also, again is very good. I
wasn't looking at it from that perspective regarding going outside
the box or being insular at the same time. I mean,
I was just really talking about the way they're like
you're talking about the way they're going to play the game.
But yeah, they need to stretch their minds there a
(15:43):
little bit too, to be that disingenuous to consider or
try to portray the fact that we are headed in
the right direction. We like what's going on out there?
How do you say that with a straight face, Because
it's not just this year. This year, it's even more exaggerated.
But this has been going on for a bit. I
know some of those guys you're talking about there, and
of course, like we talked about bod he's gone. But
(16:05):
there's really a moment of reckoning there and it always
starts at the top it always does. Ownership then comes
on down and I don't know the man in charge there,
but that really needs to be considered exactly what they're
saying to the rest of the group, what they believe in,
and they're the ones who could have to elicit the change.
You talk about people, gms, whatever, managers, But it's always
(16:28):
going to start at the top on what's permitted from there,
So the moment of reckoning has to start there and
then filter on down to the rest. And it's got
to be an open, honest approach, and everybody's got to
be culpable, and everybody's got to listen to, like you said,
different thoughts and ideas in order to fix this thing.
Because this thing, I mean, I'm into like the quick
(16:48):
fixed kind of stuff, but this is going to take
a bit based on because I'm not seeing guys playing hard.
I've been watching him intentionally and I see a lot
of like really non competitive at bats. I see some
horrible defense. I see a lot of bad things there.
So I'm not seeing what Billy talked about.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, I mean, listen, it's it's e You're right, it's
not going to be a quick fix.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
There's no doubt about it.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
There needs to be changed, And listen, I love Buddy
as much as you do, but I understand why it
change is made, and you're probably right. They probably did
him a favor by letting him go. But something else
is going on in baseball. When I look at the Rockies, Joe,
in the first fifty years of the one hundred and
sixty two game schedule, there were seven teams that lost
one hundred and ten games. I'm pretty sure the Rockies
(17:29):
are going to lose one hundred and ten this year.
They will become the eighth team in the last twelve
years to lose one hundred and ten games. So seven
teams in the first fifty years and now more than
that in just the last twelve thirteen seasons. I'm not
sure what it is, but the bottom is getting worse
in baseball. You know, not everybody is just rebuilding and
(17:52):
you know, stripping things down the way the Astros bit
did back in twenty thirteen. But it's not a good
look for baseball to have non competitive teams because last year,
you know, the Seattle Mariners looked at the schedule and said,
we lost the playoffs because the AL Central was beating
up on the White Sox, and I'm telling you the
same thing is going to happen this year. The National
League West teams are absolutely going to destroy the Colorado Rockies.
(18:14):
They're eleven and two so far, and if you lose
a game to the Rockies, you feel like you're losing,
you know, losing ground in your division, and probably there's
going to be a playoff spot decided the National League
because somebody had more games against the Rockies and took
advantage of them.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah. I mean I've been part of that too. The
NL Central couple years ago with the Cubs in Cincinnati
was awful and we did we you did beat up
on them. And when there are teams like that, you,
like you said, if you lose to them, it's almost
like it's almost kind of like the end of the
world for a moment. It just it just shouldn't happen,
you believe that. So, yes, all those tremendous imbalances within
(18:49):
divisions could really create an advantage. And like you said,
do not permit a team maybe that's more worthy to
get to the playoffs only because their schedule wasn't as advantageous.
I would, you know, I'm just talking about this now
for me, this is my personal way of doing things.
I'd love to be able to just be like a
fly on the wall, not a guy in the stands
(19:11):
for at least a week, two weeks to watch a
team in order to tell you exactly what I think.
I mean, this is all perception based on I watch videos,
I watch the games on TV a little bit, and
I know people and I read. But there's nothing like
being in the stands and really observing all this stuff.
I mean, I'm an eyeball guy, and I still believe
in the eyeballs, and I believe if you train dryballs
(19:32):
to see things and you've had some experience that it
could really be beneficial. So we've talked about a lot
of different reasons why this one hundred and ten lost
thing is really disturbing and really falls under the category
what's in the best interest of the game, which used
to be really applied often back in the day. When
I first heard that, when was it Bully hw and
(19:52):
Kelly right? I mean, the fact that did not permit
a trade or whatever because it was not in the
best interest of the game. I would love to see
that phrase being brought back and implemented and enforced because
when you're a fan of these teams, I'm watching like
I watched videos and you see actually like people walking
in the gates and they probably show like the small
gaggle that walks in. You have to answer to this
(20:14):
group of people that are spending money and whatever in
their every year. They you know, the hope of at
least competing, which I still hate that just at least
competing phrase. But there's got to be some kind of
edict from the top that it's got to be more
than just showing up and collecting whatever. There's got to
be something done in the best interest of the game,
because it's not. You're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
One last note on the Rocky is speaking of eyeballs,
You got to give those fans credit. Man. It's still,
you know, an attraction for people in Denver to go
out to Coors Field and watch a baseball game. It's
a great venue, great plays to watch a game. You know,
as bad as they've been, Joe, they still have a
really loyal fan base. And last year, for instance, losing
(20:56):
more than one hundred games, they outdrew half of the
playoff teams, including the Mets and the Orioles. So Yeah,
there are tendances down fifteen percent since pre COVID levels,
but it's not like it's really cratered. So I got
to give those fans credit, and you know, maybe the
Rockies for their ballpark experience that it's still a destination
for people to go. You know, as pure baseball fans,
(21:19):
they should be demanding more though in terms of competitiveness. Hey,
we're going to take a quick break on the Book
of Joe. We get back Joe. I want to talk
about the Hall of Fame, but not the Baseball Hall
of Fame. To do that right after this, Welcome back
(21:45):
to the Book of Joe. This is one of our
favorite topics, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Sure you're going to go there.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Did you see the inductees?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
I did not. I'm sorry. How about on.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
The first ballot Chubby Checker he's in. I can't believe
he wasn't in before. He's eighty three years old and
he's still touring.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Joe, I love that. I remember the Twist when it
came out. We all had to do the twist and
it became the Peppermint Twist eventually, and it was such
a such a thing back in that day, and and
the tight suit with the thin tie and all that stuff.
It was so great, It was so cool and it
was wonderful. Was I remember that I was at Our
Lady of Grace at that time when I think it
(22:26):
all broke, and it was wonderful.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
And also on the first ballot they were voted in.
I'm happy about this one. Bad Company. Yeah, you got
to like that job. I mean, that's classic guitar riffs,
you know, put the windows down, put the stereo up.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
I just did that yesterday. I mean I didn't have
Bad Company on, but I got this really great system
in my room over here to the left, and I
was I stretched in the morning. I got this great
carpet to stretch on, and I put some albums on.
I got these big old Sirwin Vega nineteen eighty speakers
and a nice Yamaha Yamaha amp and I did put
on Springsteen. I put Asbury Park and I also put
(23:03):
on Pink Floyd Real Loud, real loud. It was outstanding.
I put one more and I can't remember, Oh, roberta
flat the first time ever saw your face on this
brand new album. First it was a pink album, but
it was brand new, was right out of the container,
out of the the album cover. It was so clear.
I could not you forget. Sometimes you put on these
(23:25):
other albums that slightly used, you get that little scratch
as it comes on, like with the Spring Seen album.
I got that little scratch, scratch scratch, and then eventually
here it comes Bruce. But the roberta Flac first time
ever on a Pink album, never been played before. Wow,
this sound was incredible. So that's the part of the past.
And I had to get up up the floor, changed
(23:45):
the album, turned it over. H oh the other Who
I put the Who on? Also, Yes, it was but
real lout, real out, because I'm in a spot, it
doesn't matter, nobody's gonna hear me. And it was great.
I wanted to get pumped up for the day and
I did well.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Done better than coffee. You're almost as good as coffee.
And also in the category of musical influencer, Warren Zevon.
Now a lot of people think, oh were walls of
London right Warren Zevon, Man, he was so much more
than that. One of the great singers, songwriters, and I
know Joe this this goes back to a sweet spot
(24:19):
for you talking about southern California, the LA scene there
in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Get this.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
On his first album, he had Jackson Brown, Steven Nicks,
Lindsay Buckingham, Don Henley, Glent Fry, Linda Ronstadt, Bonnie Raitt,
Phil Everley, and Carl Wilson. Come on, I mean, that's
an all star team. He was just connected to so
many people, so many people wanted to be around Warren
(24:46):
zevonn He was such a talent. Probably one of your
favorite songs, Poor Poor Pitiful Me.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
That was his song. Yeah, he wrote a ton of
songs for Linda Ronstad.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
You just just I'm just that's the name. When you
mentioned all that, folks, I got admit. I've always had
a crush on this woman and still do. I know
she's in the Parkinson situation now, but to me, she
was the voice of that particular generation. To this day,
she comes on to radio. I listened to Serious Letter, Pandora,
or I'll put her station on. She stops me every time,
(25:18):
her range, her attitude. You know, growing up in Tucson.
She conciones Papa, which pasre papa, the song Mexican songs
that she did a long long time. I mean I listen.
I could listen to this woman all day launch her voice,
I mean, from her to Lady Gaga. For me, she
was the best. She did it the best. She was
(25:39):
this little person with I mean, for me, one of
the best voices I've ever heard. When I got to
the Angels, how about this is all naive? I am,
this is my second time through. She's from Tucson, right,
so I ARTI Raino's from Tucson. So I get the
spring training in twenty twenty whatever it was, and I say, hey,
do you happen to know Linda Ronstad? Saying that you're
both from Tucson. He just looked at me, like, what
(26:01):
are you nuts? Because I was hoping that he could
set up and arrange where I could meet Linda Ronstad
or africame to a game. I didn't realize to what
extent she was ill enough that she couldn't do that,
But I was that much impressed that I've always wanted
to meet her because to me, she's where it begins
and ends for female vocalists.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, just a beautiful voice.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Warren Zevon, by the way, he was born in Chicago
and then he went to LA and he dropped out
of high school to go to New York to try
to make it as a singer songwriter. As a kid,
he studied piano under igor Stravinsky. How's that for training,
So he didn't really pan out. Things didn't pan out
in New York so much so that's when he went
back to LA and he roomed with Stevie Nicks and
(26:43):
Lindsay Buckingham.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
That's how this started that arrangement there.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
But I'm always a fan, Joe of great musicianship and
especially great writing. You know those singer songwriters. I mean
it almost sounds archaic just that phrase, like who is
a singer songwriter?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Now?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And people are gonna tell me yea, they know this guy,
that guy, this person, this woman.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
But back in the day, talking to seventies and eighties,
the world, the musical world was populated with singers songwriter geniuses.
And that really was Warren z more in Zevon. When
you go back and look at his work, I mean, lawyers,
guns and money, fantastic, excitable boy. I mean the opening
line of Where Rolls in London was chosen by people
(27:29):
in England as the best opening line of any song.
I mean, it's just amazing that the words he put
to paper and then to zong, coming from a.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Writer himself, I cannot agree with you more. I mean,
I've offered made these arguments. I started out even the Stones,
probably the first group that made an impression on me.
Can't get no satisfaction. And then of course the Beatles,
and then here came Simon and Garfunkel, who I still
to this day listened to almost I listened to them
as often as I watched Seinfeld. Pretty much. I'm not
(27:59):
always impressed with Simon and Garfunkel. Then you can move
it all the way through. Man brought up Jackson Brown,
you bring up the Crosby, Stills, and Nash loved all
these guys, the Almond Brothers. But it is, it's every
one of the groups. We can name them all. They
were all distinctively unique to their sound and their messaging.
That's what I think is missing today, because when I understand,
(28:21):
there's a small group of people writing most of the
songs today, both lyrically and the song itself, the music
of the song, So that I think is what's missing.
That's and again we've I made the comp with cars.
I mean, I'm looking at where there's gonna be like
three D cars being made right now. They're gonna print
them out of three D and then make these cars.
I mean, come on it. Really, we constantly want to
(28:43):
subtract the human element from everything, and while we do this,
you get a ubiquitous sameness. That's it's all that you're
seeing there. There's a lack of imagination. And I'll argue
that with anybody. So it's easy to turn back the
clock that group right their sixties, seventies, eighties, and then
to the nineties. And eventually as we continue to go forward,
(29:04):
we go backward because we become more of the same
and less of individuals, and we lack the charisma. Cannot
agree with you more man the songwriting, music words they matter,
and individuality, individual sounds matter, as opposed to everybody just
trying to synthesize the same stuff all the time. Which
does bother me. And why do we listen to oldies
(29:26):
station and not contemporary stations because they're not nearly as interesting.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Think about when you got an album back in the
seventies or eighties, especially the seventies, right and you had
the liner to the album right, and you were just
praying the lyrics are on there, and you would read
those lyrics like you were reading poetry.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You could enjoy the song without actually hearing the music
because you got lost in the words. And I don't
know about you, Joe. If I got an album and
it didn't have the song lyrics on the line, I
was disappointed.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Man.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I wanted to see the words.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Agreed, And there's also a photo too, But you're pointing
out I mean, this is my own opinion, but there's
got to be a certain I don't the words suffered
maybe not the right word, but to earn it or
have failed or constantly failed matters. I think when you're
becoming an artist and you're attempting to do something, whether
it's writing, singing or whatever, but primarily writing putting pen
(30:25):
to paper, there's a lot of life experience involved in that.
There's a lot of you're not good enough involved in that.
There's a lot of being turned down, maybe a broken relationship,
and all of that tragedy in your life involved in that.
So I don't know that that's tapped into today as
much as it had been. I think that's the really
(30:47):
roote essence of all this wonderful artistry we've had in
the past. Things were earned. I don't know that. And yeah,
this is not an age thing. This is being I
think I'm kind of pragmatic and open minded about this stuff.
I really believe the group that came up back when
they did the first the first I've talked about is
the first album, the first book. Wow, I've always wanted
(31:10):
that one because to me, that's like all these years
pent up years that they were writing down in notebooks,
jogging things down on napkins, and all of a sudden
they get this opportunity, they put it together, and all
of a sudden they got to hit. That to me
is really the root and soul of a lot of
these artists. And that's why you know, the first book,
like John Grisham's rout in a thousand books, but I
(31:31):
have to go back to the original books with him,
the firm whatever and read that stuff, because that's that's
who these people are. And that's really After that it
becomes more industrial. You got to like, you gotta do this,
I got to keep it going. But those first moments, man,
those are the ones that really impressed me. And that's
why I really still listen to this stuff. It never
(31:53):
gets old. It's timeless. There's universality about it that will
never grow old. Our classic rock today is equivalent to me,
is of the classical music you know, back Beethoven, Wagner, whatever,
back in the today. Timeless. It's going to stand a
test of time, this particular era, I'd say between the
sixties into the seventies for sure. Maybe it's going to
dash into the eighties a bit, but there's a timelessness
(32:14):
about it that well, there's always going to be an
OLDI station playing this one hundred years from now.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
The Struggle, right, we talk about it a lot here
on the book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
The Struggle and you know the upside to struggling and listen,
you talk about classical music. Brahms took twenty years to
write his first symphony. Twenty years to write his first symphony.
And I'll give you a couple of lines. I have
to do this from Warren Zevon. I mentioned were wolves
of London. I saw a were wolf with a Chinese
(32:45):
menu in his hand, walking the streets of Soho in
the rain. He was looking for the place called Lee.
Who folks going to get a big dish of beef
chow Maine.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And here's one of my favorites, Joe.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
We buy books because we believe we're buying the time
to read them.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
I mean, come on, I mean I see that. To
me is that's a person that really is just observing
everything around him and everything around him. All these observations
he's taken the heart and then maybe jogging this down
or it's it's it's embedded in his mind. So when
it comes down to, like you said, pen the paper,
they just start coming out because he's had these life
(33:25):
experiences where he really did pay attention. Whereas today we're
gonna rely on AI. We're going to rely on mechanics
to write for us, to create for us. And I mean,
you know, reading about you know, uh the uh not
Millennium gen Z, guys and women all of a sudden
they want them. They're gonna they're okay with relationships based
on AI. It's like it's insanity where we're going right
(33:47):
now and not really realizing we're spinning out of control
with all this crap. There warn't xenons of the world.
I mean, this is the stuff that gosh, I mean again, timelessness.
You wish it would never go away. There's got to
be a moment in the near future hopefully that really
permits us to not get caught up in this hamster
(34:10):
wheel of so called progress where we're becoming less and
less important as human beings. Our minds are becoming less
and less important because relying on all this other stuff
to conclude for us, and I can't stand that, quite frankly,
for somebody else to conclude for me, or a machine
to conclude for me is really repulsive.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I'm with you, and I think I don't know how
this changes, but we really have to de emphasize putting
the emphasis on convenience and speed and hacks. Right, I
really lost the value of kind of that stick toitiveness,
where the reward is putting in the work and the
payoff at the end rather than how quickly can I
(34:52):
get there? What hacks can I use, whether it's AI,
whatever it is. People are in such a hurry, and
that includes music making, right, I mean, there's formulas, there's algorithms,
Just plug it in, sell a few albums, You're done.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Nobody stays together anymore, so.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
The idea that things are worth working for I don't
know where along the line.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We lost that job, but we've got to get it back.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
There's a tremendous amount of value in failure. It's don't
overlook it. Ever. You primarily learn through your failures as
opposed to your positive outcomes. So I am so about that.
I could recap boringly all the different times that I
failed in order to get to become a major league manager.
(35:36):
Was a fifty one, has some good runs after that,
But I could recap all the awful moments where you
barely could afford Christmas for your kids. You know, you
can't even transportation back home this ye your parents over
holidays cost so much. You put on the credit card
anyway because you had to do it, or even the
credit card build it. But I know what's happening now
that you did as a kid to order to put
(35:59):
a couch in your house whatever, then you have to
pay these exorbitan rates. I mean, we all done it.
It's still happening right now. But you got to go
through these really high levels of failure to become a success.
I believe, and I don't think you just suggested. I
don't know that today's world really wants to take the
time to fail they want to go right to success,
and it's no different than guys getting major league managerial jobs.
(36:22):
I'm just going to jump to baseball without having the
opportunity to fail on a minor league level or fail
in the scouting profession where you look at your draft
list that you turn in and you find out that Wow,
like Jeene Thompson said, don't put the guy on the
list unless you really want to, because that's the guy
they're going to draft for you. These are like valuable
lessons learned that we need to appreciate again, and that
(36:45):
to me would be the bedrock the foundation of really
rebuilding all of this to the point where you could
see the light at the end of the tunnel and
you could feel good about yourself because you really accomplish
something through your own thoughts and deeds based on your
own life experiences.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And with that, we're gonna take a quick break on
the Book of Joe. We get back and we're going
to continue with our manager theme. I saw an old
school managerial.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Rant the other day. Boy, I missed those.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
We'll talk about that right after this.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
One of your former players, Rocco Baldelli gave me an
entertaining rant the other day, Joe, I'm doing a game
for Fox in Minnesota. Adrian Johnson was the homeplate umpire,
and I didn't think he was having that bad of
a game. Actually, I hadn't noticed anything. You know, sometimes
you're following along and you're like, man, this guy's off today,
or this guy's really good today. It was just kind
(37:52):
of non the script. It was fine by me, but
not apparently to Rocco Baldelli. There was one strike call
that he especially didn't like. I'm sure it wasn't the
first time he piped up. So he comes running out
and boy, a lot of his adjectives started with the
letter F. I mean, this went on for a while,
and just to cap it off, it was perfect theater.
(38:12):
You just don't see this anymore. As he's walking towards
the dugout at the end of his day, thrown out
of the game by injury, Johnson he takes his cap
off and he dramatically flings it over his head, just.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Like by the way Mary Tyler Moore.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Since we were in Minneapolis, it was a beautiful thing.
We don't see that really, really, I don't think often enough. Listen,
you don't want to encourage, you know, just for the
sake of going out there making a scene, but why
not blow off some steam.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
It's part of the game's tradition. What's interesting to me, Joe.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Is Adrian Johnson's previous game before this one was in
New York. Yankees Padres and Mike Shilt had come out
of the dugout, and before he went into his tirade
to Adrian Johnson behind the plate, he threw away his
lineup card. Then he took off his glasses and threw
away his glasses, being careful enough to make sure he
(39:06):
threw them into the grass so they weren't scratched. I'd
never seen a guy to get himself ready for his
argument whip off his glasses and throw them away. So Rocco,
Mike Schilt, thank you for that, although Adrian Johnson probably
not thanking you.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Yeah, I was watching that game with the Yankees, and
I think Shilty was right. Beyond that, I'm so proud
of Roco. Providence was said win Socket Woon Socket Rhode.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Island one socket Rocket.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Yeah, I mean all the folks back home had to
be very proud. I mean Rocco is one of the
most civil members of the Major League Baseball family, and
I love the fact that he lost his mind a
little bit. Roco was one of my all time favorites.
It's just just on a side note to me, if
that guy did not get hurt, he'd have been like
one of the top ten players of his era, no question.
(39:53):
He was that talented. Every part of the game was
that good, and nobody talks about it. He was that good.
It says that's the biggest shame ever that he the
mitochondria concerns that he had and how it kept him down.
But I as a manager on the field, I would
watch him and I thought he defined Joe Demagio to me,
(40:13):
only probably a little bit bigger, stronger, possibly, But the
way he moved and everything he did was that good.
And it's too bad we got cheated out of all that.
But all the managers, yeah, you got to lose your mind.
Sometimes you have to lose your mind. You can't keep
it inside, and it's got to be extemporaneous. I mean
there's times I did plan those things a little bit
because I just had enough and I said, the first opportunity,
(40:35):
I'm out there, But the best ones are the extemporaneous
moments when you weren't. You're just in there enjoying the game,
and all of a sudden you just lose your mind.
And the players do appreciate that. I really believe that too,
But you got to get it off your chest afterwards.
I'd go inside have a shot of Crown Royal or
something like that, just to calm you down, because you've
got to talk to the press afterwards. But it's that intense, man,
(40:57):
you get going like that, you're shaken. You come up
the field, you think yourself that I really say that,
But just then you stay to the club, just give me,
give me a shot of something that I got to
settle down. And that's just the way. It's just the truth,
and it's a beautiful part of the game, and I'd
love to see more of it. But with all technology
involved and more tech involved in our game, the less
emotion you're going to see. So when you guess to
(41:18):
the point of automatic ball strike stuff, and if that
becomes even more common and useful are utilized, you're going
to see even less of this. The more tech involved,
the less emotion from humans.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, just a couple of notes on Rocco as well.
Bill Belichick called him the best athlete he ever saw.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
I mean, he was that special.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, And he's huge, as you know, Fish fan, the
band Fish. I mean, he's been to a gazillion concerts.
And I mentioned to Roco that Fish actually was on
the ballot for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
They won the fan vote, which is just a small
portion that it's basically a committee that makes the final vote,
(42:00):
but didn't get in. And as Rocco said, knowing Fish
as an all fan, it's like they're probably very good
with that, the fact that they didn't get in.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
But you mentioned the strike zone, Joe.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
It's interesting because what I'm hearing and noticing myself, and
maybe some of this is confirmation bias. The strike zone
on the edges, especially the bottom, is not the same
as before. And you know when the umpires were graded before,
they had a buffer essentially the size of a baseball,
(42:31):
like a five inch buffer.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
So if the ball was five inches just below.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
The hairline of the strike zone and they called it
a strike, that counted as a correct call. And they're
trying to ace the tests, so to speak, because they
get graded after each game. And what they've done now
after they had the trial run in the spring training
with the Challenge system, is now calling a much more
literal strike zone, so that buffer zone is gone. They're
(42:57):
anticipating the fact that Challenge system will be in play
for next year, So you're training the umpires now to
make sure you're literally calling a zone with no buffer zone.
And what pitchers and managers and hitters are noticing is
that fifty to fifty ball now is not being called
a strike that's on the edges or maybe just slightly
off the edge, because that's the way AI is going
(43:20):
to see it next year.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
So far, it.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Hasn't translated to me in terms of more offense. Batting, average,
run scored, slugging are slightly down from last year's number.
Now we have to give it time because in the
summer we know offense goes up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
But that's what I'm seeing here. Maybe it's anecdotal.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
I think there is some data that teams have that
show the strike zone is a little bit smaller this year,
but it's all for the coming of AI and the
Challenge System.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
How about Chase, I mean that would be part of
it too. I mean, okay, maybe that it's a little
bit more finite within the strike zone, but how much
more are people or hitters swinging outside of the strike
zone based on breaking balls and of course velocity just too,
because you're saying you would think smaller zone, greater offense
or production, but you're not necessarily seeing anything substantial. So
(44:10):
I wonder if chase is up based on a lot
of other elements, that's kind of mitigating the smaller strike
zone or making it moot the fact that it doesn't
really matter. Just again, when it comes down to smaller
strike zone, if you're locating, if the ball is located
well in a good spot, it's still not going to
matter a whole lot, I don't think, But you're right.
(44:31):
I mean, the five inch buffer was a joke. We
knew it was a joke, but then again, it was
the same for everybody, and every umpire was different. Man,
we skip those heat maps and you would see the
heat maps knowing where the umpire was more liberal. And
we've talked about this also where right handed picture versus
the right hand hitter, a left handed hitter than a
left handed pitcher versus left nd righty. The umpire had
like four different strike zones based on all these different
(44:53):
moments with the handedness of the pitcher and the batter,
so you had to look at all these different things,
and you wanted your catcher to adjust accordingly. Some guys
are really tight on the inside edge were which I
normally saw was tight on the inside edge right on right,
more liberal away as an example, and then like sweeping
pitches away like left on left, maybe more liberal outside
(45:14):
on a breaking ball, you would just try to find
wherever that edge was. You try to find it based
on the heat map. So they're trying to in a
good way. They're trying to make this more uniform. I
understand that completely. But even though the strike zone may
be more finite or consistent, I'm curious about off how
often guys are chasing outside of the zone compared to
(45:35):
the past, That would be that would be interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, that number actually hasn't changed all that much. It's
traditionally around thirty one percent. Last year was thirty one
point eight. This year's thirty one point one, So the
chase rate really hasn't gone up. Where the game has
changed now is pitch shaping, though I mean, we talk
all the time here about there's so much more spin
in the game today. Maybe they're just taking these pitches
(45:58):
and just trying to, you know, zero in on something
in the zone. But the chase rate itself is pretty
much been kind of held standard.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
But I agree with you.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
It's me the hitting environment is so hard in baseball today,
pitchers just keep getting an edge on hitters.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
In my book, how.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
About like ex velocities like this ball put in plays
or anything different on that.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
I have to check that out. It's a good question.
I'm not sure that has changed. I wouldn't expect that
to change all too much. Are you thinking about torpedo bets.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
I'm just thinking in general, I mean, why there shouldn't
be a significant You would think there'd be a little
bit of a jack based on the fact that the
strike zone is being called differently and hitters should have
a little bit better edge in regards to if there's
not more chase, you think they'd hit the ball more
consistently well, based on the fact that they're not getting
the pitchers aren't getting so much on the edges. I'm
(46:49):
just just curious. But we talked about this, and it's true,
the hitters really get very little analytically from the world
where the pitcher and defense they're pretty much the superstars.
They get this stuff that really does make a difference.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Well, wraps up are edition of you know, Manager Check
as far as it goes, because you talked about two
teams changing managers that you know, nobody really thinks of
them as playoff teams. So I'm not sure they're chasing
wins as much as they're just you know, kind of
giving the door to somebody who didn't have a lot
to do with where these teams are at.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
In terms of the Pirates and the Rockies.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
I'm not sure if you had anything in mind when
you chose your thought of the day, Joe, but when
it came to managers, but what do you have for
us today to and this edition of the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
I think I'm attacking AI. We were there a little bit, yeah,
you know, and I there's a couple but the one
that I really from Gertrude Stein, it just the one
that really stuck for me today was about where we
we what we see is not exactly what's going on.
It's kind of a thought and it came up with this.
Everybody gets so much information all day long that they
(47:57):
lose their common sense. So, you know, we're so flooded.
I mean, I was thinking about, like, I'm I'm a
I'm a culprit right now. Really, I watch a lot
of news on television, I do. I watch that more
than I watch baseball, which is like ridiculous. I watch
news even more than Seinfeld right now, which is unbelievable.
But they're getting We're flooded with so much information all
(48:18):
day long, and of course there's bias involved. You've got
to choose your bias how it lines up to your
own lens of the world. But why you do that.
I think it's really important to absolutely listen to the
other side, and when I do, I find out that
it really kind of galvanizes what I do believe by
listening to what I believe is the side that's not
(48:38):
making any sense. But there's so much information that I
think that people are so influenced by what we're hearing
that they fail to make up their own minds. That's
I think that's the point I was trying to get at.
So I really would encourage and I believe it's you know,
when we take in all this stuff because it's coming
from so many different directions. Where in the past we
had a way for the morning newspaper, you were too
(49:00):
busy during the day to listen to any kind of
news radio kind of stuff. At the end of the day,
there was like Huntley Brinkley at the end of the
day or whatever. There's three News, Walter Cronkite that was
your news, and maybe the local news at the end
of the night, possibly, But there wasn't all this glut
of constantly streaming news and information to us to the
(49:22):
point where we're becoming so inundated with that it's hard
to make up your own mind anymore. And I just
I've always been about that, make up your own mind.
We've kind of touched on that when I was ranting
about the Rockies doing what they think is right. So
I'm just I would just hope that we continue to
use our common sense, our own sense of our group
of sensibilities that we've nurtured over years based on where
(49:44):
we're from and who we grew up around. I just
see that as not being as important anymore, and I
think it needs to be more important so that we
can stay grounded and what we believe in and not
be afraid to argue and disagree and with somebody that
you totally don't believe their set of values whatever, have
(50:05):
that argument, but they go for a beer or sit
down and have a nice glass of wine and understand.
It's important to be able to do that, to have
counter arguments, counter completely polar opposite kind of views of
the world. But still at the end of the day,
if you've had this good discussion, let's let's just agree
to disagree at this point, let's go have that beer
(50:26):
and talk about the Seinfeld episode I watched last night.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Well, Joe, hopefully when you're getting this this this news
fix associated that you have right that not too much
of it is actually pundits because we've lost the what
I call it media literacy, you know, to understand the
difference between news and blather, because the news is presented
(50:52):
as blather with these so called pundits, right, that's the danger,
and we really have to start teaching children in school.
I'm not being joking about this, how to differentiate, to
use critical thinking and not just turn your brain off
and listen to people blather with hot take opinions and
(51:13):
accept that as quote unquote news that's dangerous.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
Yeah. And then and it's it's formulating opinions, and it's
it's creating more polarity regarding what we believe in and
who you should like or not like, who I could
associate with or not associate with. It's that part to
me is I'm absolutely insane. I never remember that as
a kid, or even not even beyond kid ism when
I became, you know, a teenager. Then you go to college.
I never really did like somebody because they didn't agree
(51:37):
with me. I mean, I don't. I've never understood that concept.
I not at all. I've always enjoyed when somebody and
I still do when I when somebody disagrees with me,
I'm fine with that. I encourage it. And then eventually
I could, you know, weigh that and say, good point,
Maybe I need to include that in my thought process
and my belief system. Where nah, it just reinforces exactly
(52:00):
what I believe. And that's the that's the point when
you're talking about the blad rors and the pundits as
opposed to somebody that's responsible, and that's that's up to
us to make our What am I seeing right here?
What do I think this person is he is he
a blatherer or is he a pundit, or is he
somebody that really has give me giving it to me straight,
looking at both sides of the world and just trying
(52:21):
to keep by youse out, which is very difficult, but
I really I attempt to do that myself, so I
have my intent up all the time. And it's it
all starts with baseball too. It's not just in the
real world. I you know, we talk about other things
going on in the game. I've seen this over the
last at least ten to fifteen years. Is where it began,
where it became more. You know, the groups that excuse me,
(52:46):
groups that took charge, and it was always an agenda
based from that group, and if you did not jump
on with that particular method of thought, you were really
thought about less and eventually taken out of there. Back
in the day, I wanted people in the room that
totally disagree to disagree with me to the very end.
I want disagreement. I love disagreement. So it's part of
(53:09):
the way of the world right now, and hope we
get by that. But the end of the day, folks,
make up your own mind, don't let anybody make it
up for you.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
That is a quart of the day.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
I'm gonna go with Joe Madden as my thought of
the day, so thanks for ending it that way.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Joe you got We'll see you next time on the
Book of.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
Joe wait to wind me up. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
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