December 16, 2025 • 52 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci are watching free agency moves and focus on the NL East. Tom notes the Phillies signing Adolis Garcia and how the team is looking for a turaround. What does this mean for the future of Nick Castellanos? Tom moves onto the Braves' depth strategy and the Mets' shift towards a more defensive approach. What is available in free agency for starting pitchers or other impact players? Tom and Joe also pay tribute to George Altman, reflecting on his diverse career and dedication to baseball.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Daron, welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcast.
It's me Tom Berducci and of course Joe med Joe,
are you okay if we talked about the National League East,
(00:26):
because you got to help me out on what's going
on in the NL East.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, I've been, We've all been following it. Of course,
it is kind of crazy. Yes, I'm happy to talk
about that. I mean, I have a Mets theory kind
of but overall, yeah, it's kind of nuts good.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
We need to sip through a lot of it. Let's
start with the Phillies. Okay. They made an interesting sign
with Adolis Garcia, a guy who's non tendered by the
Texas Rangers, which really spells the end of days for
Nick Castillanos in Philadelphia. He's looking at some kind of
trade release, you name it, but there's no room there
(01:02):
to me anyway at Philadelphia outfield. Garcia is an interesting case, Joe.
When you look at a guy who's thirty three years old,
had a huge year in their World championship season a
couple of years ago, but in the last couple of years,
this dude has not been able to catch up to velocity.
Back in twenty three, he had seven home runs and
it slugged four to sixty five against Elite Velocity ninety
(01:23):
five and above. That's creator the last couple of years.
Lugged down to three twenty one in twenty four, and
then last year only one home run off Elite Velocity
and slugging three hundred. So I don't know how you
look at this, Joe. If you come with a veteran
joined your club, he's thirty three years old, you see
(01:44):
the decline in the last couple of years. You know,
there's always a tendency to say, hey, we can fix
this guy. We know that his defense is really good.
That's an upgrade there, certainly on Castianos, one of the
best throwing arms plus defender I think in right field.
But what's your take on acquiring a guy like this
who's had trouble and you're wondering at his age, whether
(02:06):
you know at this time it's going to continue to
be trouble or you can fix them with a guy
like Kevin Long.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah, I mean I think they put a lot of
faith in Kevin.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
My first thought would be, just how has he been
pitched to, and what have they been telling him?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
I want to go there first.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
You know, I was still managing when he was there
with the Rangers, and God, the guy was, you know,
so strong, he'd mishit balls.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
That that would go out.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You're right, he's I think he's an above average outfielder,
and the army is strong and accurate. My point is analytically,
how he had been pitched to and what was the
game plan? In other words, when he was hitting the fastball?
Did they start throwing a lot of breaking balls? And
all of a sudden he gets off the fastball, sits soft,
and all of a sudden here comes back to the
to the fastball. And I've lost something. I've lost my mindset,
(02:52):
my ability to fire on the fastball. I'm a little
bit late. I'm not seeing it as well.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Whatever, Well, I can tell you, Joe, to answer your question,
it's been a ton of fastballs. I mean they're not
getting them out with breaking pitches. I mean only Mike
Trout saw a higher percentage of ninety five plus fastballs
and did Garcia. And you know what, Mike, it's all
about getting that fastball above his hands. Right with Garcia
is just you know, beat him with velocity.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, once you that's it.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Though, once you've established that from a scouting perspective and
that you know that and you know, I saw it
with Mike also Trout, it makes it relatively easier, if
that makes sense for me, A major ly hitter has
got to be able to hit a fastball otherwise there's
no sense in even worrying about doing all these other things.
But I'm just curious if in fact they see something
(03:38):
as an issue like you're saying, Kevin is so good
at it. It is I think a classic example of
you know, we could fix him.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I think that's part of the conclusion.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Although they have somebody that normally can't fix a lot
of people, they're liking the defense.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
It's an upgrade right there.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
They feel like they're probably extrapolating how many home runs
he's gonna hit with the you know, the slug's gonna
eventually look like, and how does that play regarding you
know that the defense with the offense they can they
could get from him.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
So it's just got to be the Phillies cocktail.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
There's something they like about him, there's something they could
fix about him, and not too long ago he was
pretty good offensive league.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, I mean, listen, the Phillies are to me an
older team. We know that, you know, they're all in.
You know, we talk a lot and I hate this
word window about teams because teams evolve and teams like
that at the top of the market, they're not going
to take a step backward. So again, he's adding some
age there, I get it. But Castiano's just, you know,
(04:36):
again he's a guy who never really learned much played discipline,
and you know, didn't do himself any favors when he
essentially called out as manager last year Rob Thompson when
he questioned how well Rob Thompson communicated to players. Now,
it was an awkward time because they picked up Harris
and Bader, and you know, Joe's a manager. You get
a guy and you ride the hot hand. And Bader
played really well, more specifically, hit really well, took a
(04:58):
bats away from Castianos. So you know, you could see
this one coming, not that it was going to be Garcia,
but that the reduced playing time, if not roster spot
for Castianos was in jeopardy.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, I mean, once Nicky did kind of get I
don't know if there was attack, but there was definitely
a confrontation with Robbie. I mean that really set this
whole thing up. And to defend Robbie's position, he's got
to play the better hitter offensive player at that particular juncture.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
If it's that.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Noticeable, and I right, Nicky can't get into those stretches. Man,
he starts chasing everything. When I had him with the Cubbies,
he was outstanding, and there was a period of time
there with the Affilies he was too. However, there's always
that moment in time where he's going to just start
swinging at the slider down in a way and just
start chasing out of the zone and everything kind.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Of goes south.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
And if you don't have a better alternative, then of
course you just stay with it. But if you do,
it's up to the manager to make that kind of
a move. So I know Nicki well enough to understand
that he got upset. I'm sure after he thought about it,
he probably was contrite regarding what he said and maybe
how he said it. However, the damage had been done
and I'm looking at it from the perspective. I mean,
(06:08):
Robbie gets a contract extension and and with this particular move.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
The front office is supporting him.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
So there's a lot going on there that I think
everybody feels as though Robbie was in the right and
Nicki was not necessarily in the right, and it's it's
resulting in this. It's not a lateral move. I mean,
this guy, like you said, the defensively, there's definitely an
uptick there. And this guy's got huge power when things
are clicking properly for him, So I I could see it.
(06:36):
I want to wish Nikki well and getting on his
feet somewhere and success because he and I had a
really good relationship. He's a different cat, requires a lot
of a conversation, and NICKI did. He always came up
to before the game, almost not almost every game. Every
game we had a brief exchange regarding that night. So
there's there's a lot to like about. This guy is
(06:57):
very intense, but I understand what the Phillies.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Are doing right here.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, listen, he's only Garcia is only two years or
moved from a thirty nine home run season and you
mentioned Kevin Long and yeah, I mean he's one of
the best in the business. Long track record. I will
remind you though we heard a lot of these same
things about Max Kepler last year joining the Phillies. I
was not a big fan of that signing. I think
he's been an overrated ballplayer. He's a guy with some skills,
(07:22):
but the results just haven't been there. And it was
not a good year. I mean, his adjusted ops was
eighty eight. That's far below major league hitters, so the
average major league hitter. So we'll see what happens. But
I do like this taking a flyer on a Doley
scar seat at the Rangers. People tell me they would
not be surprised if he bounces back. They didn't know
(07:44):
he was going to Philly. But change the scenery. Apparently
it was not a great clubhouse last year in Texas.
Could be energized playing in that ballpark for that team.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, listen, I saw it. I saw missing this.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
This guy in Anaheim Stadium Angels Stadium would just power
the ball to center at right center.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
I thought he played hard.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
He's really strong, My god is he's strong. He runs
pretty good too, so tools wise, he's probably a larger
toolbox than maybe Nicky had overall, and I do I
like the gamble. I mean that ballpark in Philadelphia can
be kind to him also the way the ball flies
there on both sides. So it's just it's one of
(08:25):
those things, don't It's all upside I think for the
Phillies based on everything that had happened with Nick and
Robbie in the recent past. So I don't know if
they really wanted to choose someone other than him. Maybe
they had somebody else in their sides just couldn't think
it was going to get done and done on the
other side, Like I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Then, you've talked about it already.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Every team has, you know, they look at these guys
and then they'll go through their analytical departments and they'll
try to narrow down what exactly do he need does
this Fela need to do Differently, we're talking physically, mechanically
in order to be back to where he had been.
And I'm certain that they said in that room and
were convinced that, yeah, we can fix this guy. So
that's that's part of it and why they're doing that.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
They get a up great defensively.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, let's talk about the braves now, Joe. You know,
every year I remind people of this and people seem
to just forget it that every year there's at least
one team and usually two or three that make the
playoffs coming off a losing season. And their early favorite
for the twenty twenty six season, the Atlanta Braves. To me,
you know, they won only seventy six games. I think
(09:25):
they've had a really good offseason, Joe, when you look
at this team, and a lot of it was injuries
to their pitchers last year, but they just resigned Hassan
Kim to play shortstop on a one year deal. I
like that signing Robert Suarez added to the bullpen after
resigning Iglesias as their closer. And as far as death goes,
I mean, you can't pick up better pieces coming off
(09:47):
the bench to Michael Yu Streemsky and Mauricio Dubon. We
know how much their everyday players play. You know, they
like to run the same lineup out there. But man,
I've been impressed with some of the pickups by the
Atlanta Braids this year.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Well, I think you just mentioned some really good bench
pickups and then maybe they have thought to realize we
have to rest these guys a little bit more often
and not just have them try to pleably one sixty
two guys. I know that's been their their methods for
years and it's been very, very successful, no question. However,
they may have come to terms with that when you
(10:19):
get bench players like this, These guys got to play
if in fact they are bench players or eventually become
more on a regular basis, but they're really good players. Yes,
I think it just all indicates maybe a little bit
different philosophy regarding how we're going to approach today. I like,
you know, I like the idea of resting guys. Would
(10:39):
you like to rest guys with guys that are good replacements? So,
you know, with the cubbies you're having like a Zobras
playing all over the place, it was very easy to
rest somebody when you put somebody out there like that
at a different position. So when you have when you
have a bench full of competency, it's a lot easier
for manager to go ahead and throw a different name
out there and and be on board with giving people rest.
(11:02):
So it all, it all makes sense to me based
on what had happened to them over the last couple
of years.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, and last year we should point out the they
dip below the competitive balance tax threshold. They had been
above it in twenty three and twenty four, and like
a lot of teams, they reset their tax by getting
underneath it. Didn't want to get that third straight year
to get into the higher tax brackets. So they're going
to be above it back again in twenty twenty six.
(11:28):
Their payroll is going from about two oh eight million
to two forty five. So I think it's money money
well spent in terms of the depth. Great point on
your part about you know, maybe resting these guys a
little bit more. I know Matt Olsen specifically never wants
to take a day off, but in general, not a
bad idea to uh, to go to that so called
(11:49):
load management. Now we get to the New York Mets.
You got to help me out here, Joe. I know
it's we're still I don't know if it's early in
the winter, but it's not a finished product for sure.
But you know, they signed they signed Jorge Polanco to
replace Pete Alonzo at first base. Devin Williams will be
their closer with Edwin Diaz going out to Los Angeles
and the Dodgers. Listen, you know, for Diaz, it's hard
(12:12):
to criticize the New York Mets because essentially the Dodgers
are too attractive a team. The Mets were right there,
same ballpark, wanted to keep the pitcher, and he just
wanted to go to the Dodgers. What are you going
to do? It was clear from last year the Mets
were not going to get into a long term deal
for Pee Alonzo and you're not going to keep the
player that way. The market was too good, especially once
Kyle Schwarber signs a five year deal. You know, Schwarber
(12:35):
does not play defense, and he's a year or two
older than Pete Alonzo. You knew he was getting a
five year deal. Good on Baltimore to jump in. I
really liked that fit with Baltimore. Question is where do
the Mets go from here? What kind of team they have?
We just talked about the Braves. We know what the
Phillies are the National League East. You know you've got
to win ninety plus games to win that division and
the Mets don't look like that right now. And again,
we'll see how it plays out. But does this team
(12:58):
need another big bet, especially in the outfield, or where
do they go?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, they're trying to it's kind of a small market mentality.
I think I think they've had all these other guys.
You know, of course they do have Soto, and I
can't say that's small market in Lindor.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
That's obviously big market.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
But I read a lot about Stearns wanting to get
into run prevention a little bit more. They felt that
their defense was lacking last year. So it just seems
to me that they're getting more like a well rounded
kind of a player. They whoever this player is, he
has to read well defensively to not just like, well,
he could out hit some of his mistakes. We'd like
(13:35):
his offense a lot. We'll work with them on defense.
I think they've really come to terms with we're gonna
we're gonna play a better game of defense, and the
run prevention is going to be kind of like it's
going to help augment the power that we may be
lacking by not having these power hitters in the lineup.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So it just it just seems like a.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Paradigm shift regarding philosophy, you know, with Cohen there, and
of course he just got his new casino right next
to the city field. I mean, of course there's a
lot of dough going on there. But I think they're
just looking at it like, well, you know, Stearns in
Milwaukee wasn't necessarily about building through these large contracts with
big bangers, et cetera. There's bailiwick as Strong's points were
(14:15):
to build it through these this variety of different moving
pieces and parts, and I don't know, it kind of
looks like that to me. And then the other part
was just the clubhouse in general. I mean guys leaving there.
You know, he came in with all the Valley Who
a couple of years ago, with the money being spent
and all the you know, the different ways are going
about out of their way to make players comfortable. Sodo
(14:36):
talked about it. But then at the end of the
day when Soda in the door, if there's really anything
to that that's it almost seems like the exodus is
based on there certain things guys didn't like, and I
know what Dias did, and I know, you know again
it was a Dodgers, but I'm just curious, as there's
something more to that that's just really repelling some of
these guys. Anyway, I think the Nemo gone is a
(14:57):
good thing. I listened to Nemo talk a lot. I
know he's regarded in some ways, but I think him
Soto and the door it might have been too much.
So I'm curious how this all works out. But it's
like a there's some clup clubhouse.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Drama going on.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And then again, I think from Stearns's perspective, again, I
don't know anything, but it just seems like he's more
comfortable operating under these circumstances like in Milwaukee would operate
as opposed.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
To the New York Mets with this huge amount of money.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I think you're right, and I think there was a
little bit of that Andrew Freed and Andrew Friedman when
he first got to the Dodgers and he learned to
change Sterns as. I think you're right dead on Joe.
He wants to build his team around run prevention, so
defense is a big part of putting a team together.
I know he wants a very athletic, multi positional type
player on his roster, and he has some good young
(15:48):
players coming up through the system. Maybe I'm not sure
how many are ready right now, but he definitely wants
to fold those ones in. It's just an interesting fit
right now. You know, you know Simi It at second
base in his mid thirties for three years now. Lanco
at first base in his thirties with some leg issues
at you know the last few years, hit the ball
(16:09):
great for Seattle last year. Don't get me wrong, I
really like the player, but they're betwixt and between right
now when I look at this team. The young pitching,
you know, he does not Sterns does not want to
give any starting pitcher more than a four year contract,
which will take you out of the top of the
market when you have that kind of thinking. So listen,
we need to see this play out, you know, if
(16:31):
they meant make a big splash for a big bat
at Kyle Tucker, which I probably don't see happening, but
market doesn't incomplete right now. But man, there's some pressure
on Sterns and the Mets to really improve this roster
because right now, to me, Joe, they don't measure up
to the phillies of the Braves.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, and again, I've read about and heard about these
young players that they have and probably wanted to push
them through. But I just think again, Stern's his comfort zone.
He likes to put it together this way, and I
think he likes the ing and yang. He likes the
platoon advantage kind of stuff, the position flexibility that you
just mentioned.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Which I love too. I loved all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I think it's great because we operated with the Rays
where you're not going to go out and spend a
huge amount of money on one or two guys because
we can never afford to be wrong.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Now the Mets could afford to be wrong.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
That's that's something they can afford to be But I
don't know that he's convinced that that's the right way
to do things.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
I think he's looked at it the last couple of.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Years and again going back to who you are, which
your DNA is all about how he arrived there and
being true to all that stuff, and he seems to
be obviously a very bright man. So I'm just saying
he's going back into his comfort zone and he's going
to build it the way he sees the right way
to build it. He's gonna he wants to build it
for uh, like you said, not necessarily a window, but
(17:45):
for a long amount of time. He's already got some
superstars there, so now maybe just get you a better
supporting cast that on a daily basis we can rely
on to matchup better against the other team. And we
know we put a picture out there. That's the big thing.
You have a picture. The pictures are required at twenty seven,
and we start giving up twenty eight, twenty nine, thirty outs.
(18:06):
And that's not just necessarily errors. That's by places you
thought you should have made that you do not, based
on maybe a lack of range throwing accuracy. The ball
that you know could have been out with the better
defenders is considered to hit because maybe the ball bounces
from an awkward throwing position. You know, outfielder is just
not getting to a particular spot. So that's a big
(18:27):
part of defense that doesn't get enough recognition is the
plays that should have been made that are not and
are not necessarily airs. And I want to believe, I
would believe that that's a big part of their evaluation too.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, you're one hundred percent right, you know. I spoke
with David Stearns about that and the way his team
collapsed in the last couple of months of the season,
and he did say the biggest takeaway was that they
just did not play clean baseball. It didn't always show
up in the errors, but he thought that was the
undermining part that was the taste he took away from
the season that we really need to clean it up.
And don't forget, they pretty much wiped out their coaching
(19:00):
staff as well, so Carlos Mendoza has a different staff here.
You know, the Mets right now they're searching. They do
not have the kind of stability that the Phillies and
the Braves have, and they better find it quickly. We're
gonna take a quick break, Joe. When we get back.
Let's talk about the starting pitcher market. We know there
was a rush out there in free agency to build
(19:21):
up bullpens, and see that happen at the trade deadline
as well every year. But what about starting pictures? Who
would you take a flyer on? And I want to
talk about one of Joe's old starting pitchers who may
be done in the major leagues after a long career.
We'll talk about all that right after this on the
Book of Joe. All right, jer let's talk about the
(19:51):
starting picture market free agency. And I want to start
with fran Barvaldez. This guy cannot throw a ball straight
right if he tried to, he couldn't. He's got so
much movement on the ball. He's a ground ball machine.
Lots of like a about him. He's been really pretty durable.
He's had ups in the postseason and man, he's had
some bad downs in the postseason. Overall, track wreck in
(20:12):
the postseason is not what you think it is. It's
really not that good. But I want to ask you this, Joe,
if you're the manager of a team thinking about signing
from Bravaldez, don't you have to sit down with him
and ask him about that incident last year where he
essentially threw a pitch that hit his catcher, where he
crossed them up. A lot of people thought it was intentionally.
The worst part about it, whether it was intentional or not.
(20:34):
After his catcher gets smoked with a fastball that he
didn't think was coming, Valdez had no concern for his catcher,
actually turned his back on it, like, go ahead and
wear it. I don't know about you, Joe, but if
I'm a GM or manager, that's the first question I got.
Well maybe not the first, but when I do sit
down with him or talk to the agent, I got
to get chapter and verse on that incident.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yeah, we talked about it when that occurred, and I
absolutely believe it was intentional. I believe it's intentional, and
there's no other way you can convince me otherwise. It
just is, and especially be based on his reaction. You're right,
I mean that needs to be clarified. I don't know
if he's done it once, he's going to do it again.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Maybe not, but that's not even the point. It's just
the attitude in general. Why would you even do it
one time? There's something smoldering there. Possibly maybe you just
didn't like the guy. I don't know, I don't know
what it was all about. But yes, that's a great
question to be asked, and honestly, I think I would
have that research as well as I possibly can't, and
I'm sure they have before even.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Speaking with him.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
It's one of those things you want to know the
answer before you ask the question to see you know
exactly where's going to come from and how he responds
to it, because there's no way to defend it. And
I mean for me, you know, if I'm sitting across
the table, I'm really interested in him and ask him
that question, I would prefer the Jack Ryan approach right there.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
You know what I screwed up?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah I did. I screwed up. I should obviously should
have never done. It'll never happen again. I don't know
what got into me in that moment. I would be like,
you got to go Jack Ryan on that. If you're
Ramber and Drack is like the protagonist in the novels
with Clancy, just yes, admit it, admit it. And I'm
not saying he has to admit it necessarily publicly, but
(22:13):
he has to admit it in the room with the
guys that he's gonna eventually possibly be employed by. I mean,
for me, that'd be the best tact to get it
out there, you know, pick the scab, have it heel up,
and then eventually start building from there. Because if there's not,
if there's still a disingenuous answer, it's hard to trust
(22:34):
that this guy is really going to be the guy
to take you to the promised land.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
That's a great point, and I agree, especially when you're
talking about he's not going to sign some short term deal.
This is a long term marriage with his next team.
Interesting to me that the Astros don't seem to be
interested at all in a guy who they signed and
developed and had a lot of success with. I know
there's some warning signes here. Don't get me wrong. I
like the picture, but unless I'm in the room with
(23:00):
him and really hear it from him, I definitely have
concerns the rest of the market. Joe, You've still got
Ranger Suarez out there. You've got Zach Gallan, You've got
Michael King. I thought the Diamondbacks made a great signing
getting Merle Kelly back there. Two years, forty million dollars. Man,
that's a bargain, I mean, short term, two years less
(23:23):
than a qualifying offer for a guy who can pitch
towards the top of a rotation, a pitch maker, strike thrower.
I thought that was a really good signing of that group.
I like Zach Gallan, Joe. I mean, I know people
are down on him. They looked at the numbers overall
last year not good. But if you watched him in
the last two months of the season, that was the
(23:43):
same as Zach Gallan that was contending for Cy Young's
pitching in the World Series, pitching at the front of
a rotation. He just didn't have, for whatever reason, the
feel and his breaking pitches and off speed pitches, the curveball,
change up combo in those first three or four months
of the season. I went back and looked at some film,
and I noticed when he was throwing the curveball, especially
(24:04):
his arm after release would be sweeping kind of around
his hip. And the last two months of the season
I saw the finish was more like that traditional you know,
pulling the lampshade down with a hand, was continuing down,
finishing lower and really putting more finished on that pitch.
And he had more break to it. Throwing a little
bit softer with more break. That was the answer to it.
(24:26):
So I that group I would I didn't even call
it a flyer, but I'd be interested in Zach Gallam
with faith that the last two months of the season
he got back to where he should be.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, he's when he's good, he's really good. I didn't
watch it that closely. That's those are really good points.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
I like all them.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Actually, I've always liked Suarez too. King I saw briefly
when he's with the Yankees. Evans I didn't watch as
much with the Padres. Been reading a lot about that.
Maybe possibly coming back to the Al East.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I mean, that's that's right there, it would be. I'd
have to do a little bit more deep dive. This
is a this is a perfect moment for your analytical team.
I think this is exactly what I talk about where
I say that analytics really play a big part in
November December baseball, where you're trying to dissect among these
(25:16):
three really good players pitchers, who do we like the
best and why? How do they fit into our ballpark?
Our defense? What kind of defense do they need? I
don't see them among the three. Then probably King has
the most sing miss or maybe Gallon on a good day.
So what do we got here? And the ball and
play more with Suarez? But we like it because it's
soft contact kind of a thing. So this is again
(25:39):
we always talk about analytics and how it pertains to
the day. It pertains to the day to a certain extent,
but it really has a chance to be the superstar
this time of the year when you're trying to dissect
and understand who do we want. Let's get into this car,
who do we want? So I don't know enough to
know exactly among the three. The guy I've seen pitch
(26:01):
the most is Suarez, and I know he's off and
on a little bit at times, but sometimes I just
saw his confidence look to be ebbing and flowing sometimes
because when this guy's on, he just he pitches more
deeply into the game, and I like the left handed
pitch that never gets there sometimes.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
So that's it.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I'm going to defer to my analytical department, and I'd
really want to hear what they have to say about
this and break it down and really describe to me
how he fits in our guys and how it fits
into our guys defensively, because that's going to be a
big part of I think why a group chooses one
or the other.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
It's fascinating to me that the industry just jumped out
so fast on relief pitching. You know, maybe Pete Fairbanks
is the last guy out there, but a rush to
lock up these guys who can pitch late in the
game and not so much for starting pitching. And at
the end of the year we always talk about, you know,
how many innings can your rotation pick up? And the
teams that don't get a lot typically are in trouble,
(26:58):
the Dodgers being an exception, just because they're so darn deep.
But yeah, I think the value of relief pitching as
we're seeing here this offseason, it should be hired. To
be quite honest with you, you know I want some
proven guys in my rotation.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, I mean, listen, I've always believed and I still believe,
a good starting pitching makes for a better bullpen when
you start laying off that many innings on the guys
and the pen on a nightly basis, and I know,
you know you want about the leverage moments and who's
in the right guy for the eighth and in the
ninth inning. And sometimes some teams don't even want to
define closer for that reason. But when you have a
(27:32):
defined closer, you know it's going to get those last
couple outs, then it makes those first eight innings easier
somewhat to try to puzzle together piece it together. I
just don't understand that mindset whereas you on a nightly
basis you want to attempt to juggle four innings of
clean baseball from your bullpen, and especially in the world
(27:56):
where there is the three batter minimum, that makes it
even more problematic for me because there's got to be
some bad matchups in there that you're forced to have
based on the fact that you just can't go to the
bullpen for the better matchup, the left on left situation, whatever.
So listen, whenever I had to go to the bullpen
in the sixth inning, it was tough, man. And if
you do it almost every night or often enough, god,
(28:17):
you get a bunch of exhausted bullpen guys. You're always
unless you have like these the dynamic group that pitched
with the Rails several years ago, with the way Davids
spearheading the whole thing, and that's different, but that doesn't
happen every year. To rely on perfection, and that's what
you expect that you relief pictures perfection, and that's always
been my you know, after the game, you have to
(28:37):
answer the questions to the media and you'll make a
decision to bring somebody in or take somebody out, and
it doesn't work out, and all of a sudden, that
is the focal point of the discussion. And I always
have listen, guys, you hold the relief pictures to an
impossible standard of perfection, and that's what we do.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
So take a little pressure off them.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I like, if you could get starters to go six
and when they go six plus and when you start
to get into the realm, of seven.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
My god, what a difference it makes just mashing up.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
The bullpenp properly and again with the three better minimum
and providing rest.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
So I don't get it. I know everybody wants they
all want to.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Miss bats and they want the fresh armory. But at
the end of the year, how many guys are buying
for the championship on an annual basis? Come on, guys,
let's get some starters that can go more deeply into
the game.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
And speaking of starters, I mentioned this earlier. Joe one
of your starting pitchers with the Chicago Cubs. You darvish
he may be done in baseball. This is nothing official,
of course, but he is going to need another surgery
on his elbow. He's got a torn flexor tendon and
he's got damage to the ulnar collateral ligament. He will
(29:45):
not pitch in twenty twenty six. He's got three years
remaining on his contract, forty six million dollars left on
his contract. He's thirty nine years old. Does he come
back and pitch in twenty seven? Who knows? This is
a guy who had Tommy John surgery in twenty fifteen.
He had Arthur Scottpeck elbow twenty eighteen. He had a
stress reaction in the elbow in twenty twenty three, So
(30:09):
you know, listen, we're a long way off, but listen,
this guy's had a great career. When I think Joe
about people who can spin the baseball, he's one of
the first names for me that comes to mind. It
just his ability to spin the baseball and command it
just remarkable. And what a career he has had, whether
it's over or not. If you combine his seven years
(30:32):
in Japan his thirteen years in the major leagues, two
hundred and eight wins, thirty three hundred strikeouts, four hundred
and sixty one games started. Now, if you just look
at the Major League totals, his strikeout rate over of
all the pitchers with at least seventeen hundred innings, it
(30:55):
is the fourth highest strikeout rate of all time. Chris
Sale number one, Randy Johnson number two, Mac Shure's are
number three, and you d are number four. And I
can tell you this that the Padres love him so
much they want him around even while he's rehabing. This
guy helped out a lot. Randy Vasquez and some of
the other pictures on the Padres team. His pitching intellect
(31:18):
is off the charts. I actually think he's been an underrated,
underappreciated picture in the game, Joe, and I know you
probably feel differently because you had him.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
First of all, start as a human being, he's wonderful.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
He really is.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
His family, his kids, His son used to come and
shag and at Wrigley and center field would be like
thirty degrees out. He's out there with shorts and a
T shirt on. He's running the fly balls down. What
a great kid, you Darbysh is all and I understand
it completely why the.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Padres want him around.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Well, we're talking about when you talk about spinning the ball,
he has. He has as good a feel for what
he was doing as any guy, any pitcher I've had then,
And honestly the next guy would be like show, Hey,
it's something in bred and the up in the culture
when they pitch. I mean, these guys, they have this
ability to spin the ball, and they got these deliveries
(32:11):
that are normally under control. They're never getting out in front.
It's a controlled slower, almost this hesitation or pause. They'll
throw the shoot though the split and I don't even
know and I still believe that has something to do
with the elbow injuries, and I'd have to be proven otherwise.
So I think you just have to accept the fact
that it's going to pop up at some point. However,
if in fact, I don't know that the surgery he
(32:32):
is horrible, it's going to be. But I would bet
that he's going to do everything he possibly can to
come back and pitch again, I would think. And then
if he gets to that point, if he can't do
it anymore, he's just going to say I can't do
it anymore. But this guy, he went out to the
bullpen and Wrigley one day and he's walking past Kyle Hendricks.
Kyle has that great you talk about an air bending changeup.
(32:53):
Kyle is one of the best. Walking by Colin. He says,
show me the grip, show me the grip on your changeup.
So he goes out to the pen and he's working
on the change up with this grip and comes in
and Bzilso's heads up.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Watch this.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
So during the course of that game he starts throwing
this change up. But I mean it was like really
well done, was good. It was like swing and miss
arms feed everything else.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Who does that.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Who walks out to a bullpen a major league pitcher
having that kind of feel and understanding of his arm
and his body and what's going on to take a
new grip and then take it into a major league
game and be successful with it.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
I'm just a huge fan. I wish him nothing but
the best.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I hope it works out well enough he wants to
pitch again, that he does, and if he doesn't, that
he doesn't. But I could totally understand why an organization
would want this fellow. Communicatively, I really enjoyed my conversations
with him.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
You made a great point that I had not thought
about Joe in terms of kind of the Japanese style
of pitching. And I can see it in my mind's
eye right now when you're talking about and you mentioned
Showhy does this as well in Darbish Yamamoto, Kokuchi, a Managa, Sasaki.
They all are never in a hurry. It's just to
(34:05):
kind of gather and go where they're over the rubber
for a long time. Very athletic, very balanced. Like Robin
Roberts used to say a long time ago, if you're
gonna hurry, hurry at the end, right And I could
see and I saw this in the postseason where Yamamoto
would be miming his delivery in the dugout in between innings,
(34:26):
just kind of perfecting the timing of it. Nobody seems
to be as you mentioned, you know, spinning off their heel,
falling off to the first base side. I like to
watch pitchers who keep a very still head when they throw,
where it doesn't go off to the side, it doesn't drop.
I watched Greg Mannix's head and it's like a great hitter.
It never moved the strike. Throwers just watch their heads
(34:48):
and you just hit on something. I think with the
Japanese style of pitching, I think that, you know, I
got to pay more attention to now because they all
do seem to have that trait where they're so well balanced,
kind of start slow, They're never in a hurry over
the back leg.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
What goes back to instructionally, Back in the eighties, they
had the Tokyo Giants used to come over and had
a picture named Keita built kind of like darbish.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
I think it was Keda something to that effect.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Four letters, big tall, right hander, great split the thing
that I and big velocity too. I went up to
their manager, their manager on pseudo, and I asked them,
you know, to talk to the pitching coach, and I
wanted to know, why do they all have such great command?
Why are all your pitchers of great command? And they
throw the ball, excuse me, down on the zone. And
(35:36):
the pitching coach said to me, chin down. So what
you said, chin down? Your American pitchers, your face goes
up in the air. You're always left in your chin
up in the air. What he wanted was the pitcher
to have his chin down as he threw the ball,
which I think, probably you think about it promotes a
more still head, and I agree with that. I mean,
(35:57):
you watch guys throw a ball real well, whether it's
a football, baseball, whatever ball or hitters that are really
good that head Jack Nicholas with golf, everything that everything
rotates around that axis, that stays still, so chin down.
That was my explanation given to me. I used to
talk to these guys all the time because they're fundamentally
I thought they were better than us. I mean even
(36:19):
catcher's blocking balls, oh my god, the Japanese catchers and
instructional League. I never seen guys block balls that well.
And when I went over to Fitch Park and they
were practicing over there before a game.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
I was watching him.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
They'd get a shopping or excuse me, a closed basket
full of baseballs, and a coach would stand on the
rubber facing home plate with the fungo and the catcher
would be in full gear with also extra protection on
his forearms, and the coach would drill balls to home
plate with the fungo to a catcher who was just
(36:56):
basically like a hockey goalie. It was conventionally right out
of me to do this great technique, if not just
knock it down somehow. These guys were fabulous at blocking
balls in the dirt. We overpowered them overall at that point.
But teaching wise, finesse wise, fundamentally wise, I really liked
(37:16):
their their what they look like in their methods. So
none of this is a surprise. They they teach us
from from Jump Street. And that's why I think a
lot of these guys do have great command and great
finish on their pitches, because like you just suggested, they're
never jumping out at the plate.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, and they drill a lot over there, no question
about it. The work on the fundamentals, I love that
idea about putting patting on their forearms. Really, I'll keep
you in there and blocking balls.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yep, yeah, dude, these are bullets.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
These are like bullets, and I'm watching it's going god
you and I was a former catcher.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I thought that would have been fun. I really did.
I thought that would have been fun.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Hey, we're going to take a quick break when we
come back. We'll get just out of the day, as
we always do. But I also want to talk about
an incredible baseball life, baseball community lost to someone who
had a career unlike almost anyone else. And we'll talk
about that right after this on the Book of Joe.
(38:25):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe. I'm not sure
if you saw this. The name is not a household name.
George Altman passed away. He was ninety two years old.
What a career. He's one of the few people in
baseball history who played in the Negro leagues, in the
Major leagues and in Japan. How about that. He also
(38:47):
was the first guy to hit two home runs in
the same game off Sandy Kofak, something that Ernie Banks
later did. But yeah, he went from the Kansas City
Monarchs to Major League Baseball, where he was a really
good player for the Cubs. Got traded to the Cardinals
and then traded to the Mets, and then back to
the Cubs and went often. Had a great career in
Japan as well. He died at ninety two. He was
(39:10):
the oldest living New York Met at the time. It
was interesting I mentioned traded to the Mets. He get
traded to the Mets after the sixty three season for
Roger Craig. Remember Roger Craig. Yeah, with the sixty two
Mets and sixty three Mets. The general manager George Weiss
was asked about dealing Roger Craig, who was a very
(39:31):
popular player, a great guy on those teams. Weis had
a great line. He said, well, when a guy loses
forty six games, we're talking about two years. When a
guy loses forty six games, I think it's time for
a change. He was traded for George Altman came over
to play for Casey Stangle. But what a fascinating career
(39:53):
all total, in all those leagues, he wound up hitting
three hundred and fifty nine home runs. I mean, you
know that guy loved baseball. When you continue to play
literally all around the world.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Isn't it great? That's that's so, that is baseball.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
You know, the generation at the time we grew up within,
that kind of a story really resonates. It was purely
for the love of the game and and everybody that
everybody that surrounded him.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
It's just that the.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Purest, the most purest sense of the game of baseball
was not lost on anybody in that generation or a
player like Altman. And I do remember him briefly with
the Cardinals sixty three, I believe briefly with the Cardinals
and had his baseball card because that's when I that
was the my first year I became officially a Saint
Louis Baseball Cardinal fan going into sixty four. Yeah, I remember,
(40:45):
I remember is the card I remember all of that
to play in multi continents and and just purely play
because he loved it. It's wonderful and I'm so happy,
like you know that you brought it up. And these
are the kind of things we can't forget about. I mean,
this is the again, you don't necessarily read or hear that,
(41:06):
or in today's game, you don't really expect a lot
of guys or anybody to do what a George Altman
did and probably not required anymore. But it's so cool
to hear that kind of a story because it really
speaks to the essence of why we played this game.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, when he was thirty eight years old, he's playing
for the Lote Orions. This is back in nineteen seventy one.
He had thirty nine home runs at the age of
thirty eight, So it's a big left handed hitting dude. Yeah,
you're right. He played for the sixty three Cardinals. So
now the oldest living met from what most people can establish,
(41:40):
is a guy by the name of John de Merit
who turns ninety years old in January. He played on
the nineteen sixty two Mets. Actually he started his career.
He was a local guy drafted by the Milwaukee Braves
and he played ninety three games with the Braves at
a buck seventy four. Was an outfielder. He got picked
in the expansion Draft by the Mets. So he goes
(42:01):
to the Mets and didn't play a whole lot. Casey
Stangel didn't use him a lot, and so the Mets
sent him to Syracuse. They sold his contract to Triple
A and he decided to retire at that point. That's
John de Merritt, who's now the oldest New York met
turning ninety years old in January.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
I wonder if there's any relationship to Marty de Merrit.
Marty recently passed away. Marty's one of them classic classic
characters in the game of baseball.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Former major league pitching coach.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
He used to run the San Francisco Giants minor leagues
for years as a pitching coach. God, no bigger character,
no more fun guy, no more bigger personality. I think
he ended up living in Venezuela at the in his
last days. But Marty, their an instructional league in Arizona,
which it would be hundred and five hundred and ten.
(42:51):
You're playing in October September, October. You go out to
the pitching mount. He had zinc all over his redhead
with all over his face, and he would have his
jacket on like not the lightweight jacket. He'd have the heavy,
giant check with a talet around his neck.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
And he'd walk out.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
To the mound in his bombastic way, and he put
his hands on the shoulders of the pitcher. He was
going to talk to with his nose about I went
eight inches away from the fellow's nose, and he would
just inspire his pitching staff.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
They all loved Marty.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
DeMeritt eventually was with the Rays. And anyway, it's a
true character of the game. And there's another guy, not
unlike Altman, that did his work all throughout baseball wherever
it existed, and was a true character of the game.
And these are the kind of guys that really do miss.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
No absolutely And I love hearing anything about the sixty
two Mets because one of the greatest characters ever, Casey Stengele,
was the manager of that team. And actually, DEMI wasn't
a big fan of Casey's as I said, he really
didn't play a whole lot. And he said Casey used
to fall asleep during games and other players had to
(44:01):
translate the Stengle Lees as it was known to to
Marry He's like, what's he talking about? So he wasn't
a big fan of Casey, But how can you not
be a fan of Casey and the colorful character that
he was.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Whitey Herzog was a big fan of Casey. Whitey thought
he was one of the smartest baseball guys he ever met.
Just as an example, and I got this from Whitey.
I think it was Whitey. You know, sacrifice Bot was
very popular back then, and white excuse me, Casey would
have his pictures. He wanted to throw, like runners on
first and second, throw a breaking ball in a bunch
(44:32):
situation for a strike, because it took longer to get
to the play, which then permitted you was a pitcher,
to get closer to the third baseline to possibly make
that play off of the breaking ball pitch. Now, I
don't know, think about it, there's going to be a
little bit time difference in that, but the fact to
take it to that level, and I'd love to know
how often it maybe did or did not work. But nevertheless,
(44:52):
it's one of those thoughts. So probably something I would
have thought of at some point, but I got it
from from Whitey, and then of course nobody bunch anymore,
so there's no real reason to.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Try to put it to a test.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
But that was something that Whitey told me, and he
also told me that he just thought case is one
of the brightest baseball minds he was ever around.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
That's fascinating. I've never heard that before, because you know,
Traditionally they say the high fastball is the harder pitch
to bunt. So let's see a lot of high fastballs
first pitches. When you think a team might be bunting.
What do you think? You think, Hey, there's a merit
to that. I do, or would you? Is the curveball
easier to bunt than a high fastball?
Speaker 2 (45:30):
It might be, but if you're in position to field it,
then you get to out of third basis, which is
what he was after anyway. No, the high fastball is
way more difficult to actually bunt. But who had like
a really great high fastball back then. I don't know
what the velocities were, but I think that if in fact,
you could get your pitcher in a position to feel
the bundy bet, a good fielding pitcher with a good
(45:51):
breaking ball you could throw for a strike, all these
these things would be factor as part of the pregame conversation.
Another thing, like you look at Billy Martin. I worked
with Lee Walls. Lee Walls is a very good outfield coach.
He was part of Billy's mafia back in the day.
But Billy would have is when the picture was fresh
early in the game, he would have his outfielders play
(46:12):
up more tightly, and as the game was in progress,
he would have them spread out as long as the
Saint pitcher was in the game, because as he got tired,
he thought that the pitcher might be more apt to
get hit hard.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
Now, it's just something small.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
I mean, we didn't have the sophistication of data and
analytics back then as they do now. But that was
Billy's analytical mind was as the picture was fresher, played
tighter because the ball wasn't going to be hit as one.
As the pitcher got two more pitches, a little bit
more tired, let's open this up. Outfielders a little bit
more deep into the outfield. And that's the way he
worked his analytical mind playing defense back in the day
(46:45):
in the outfield.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
And Billy was Casey's guy, that was his mentor, Billy Martin.
Casey stangled that connection there. And yeah, I covered Billy
Martin when he was managing the Yankees, and I totally
agree with any indication that that guy was a baseball genius.
He really was, you know, issues off the field for sure, absolutely,
and it kind of declined his baseball sharpness if you will,
(47:10):
in those later years managing. But my goodness, that guy
was a baseball genius.
Speaker 3 (47:15):
I never got to be around him. I wish I had.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
So that brings us here to our thought of the day, Joe,
you always finish up with some words of wisdom. Here,
What do you have for us today?
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Well, it's going extending beyond the baseball field right now,
just based on the world events and how awful things
are right now. However, and even though there's a lot
of bad stuff going on, you still gotta you still
got to work to unify and band together and find
solutions to some very difficult problems.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
We just do.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I got two once from Ann Frank and I had
the distinct I guess it is pleasure to actually visit
the apartment that she lived in above in Amsterdam, and
pleasure in the sense that respect ominous feeling that you
get walking up into that that room and that grouping
(48:07):
of rooms that they had remained silent all day long.
In these rooms they could even flush toilets because people
were working down below, and they would give themselves up.
But she, she said, I don't think of all the misery,
but of the beauty that still remains. That was from
her and you could imagine a young girl like that
having that thought. And then, my guy, we've talked about
(48:28):
this before, Colin Powell, that perpetual optimism is a force
multiplier that we just got it.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
We just got to stay, We got to keep seeking.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Answers, We got to make hard decisions and try to
move this thing forward and do the right thing for everybody.
It's just it's just difficult. I'm a news watcher and
I guess that's part of my problem. And we all
have to be able to somehow come to grips with
what's going on and then move it forward. And so
(48:58):
optimism is still a big part of this And in
spite of all the misery, there is still a beauty
that remains that we have to try to bring to
the forefront and permeate to rest with. So anyway, in
this holiday season, just got to keep moving it forward, man.
And is there really difficult moments to get beyond. And
we will get beyond them, but we have to come
together trying to find unifying solutions to these really dramatically
(49:21):
difficult problems.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
That is a great reminder, Joe, anytime of year, but
especially this time of year, because there have been studies,
and this is factually true that bad news travels like
four times as fast as good news. So you mentioned
if you're a newswatcher, and it's hard not to be
these days because it's so ubiquitous, but most of it
does tend to be negative, and I think you almost
(49:45):
have to remind yourself, and the words of man Frank
certainly is served better than my words here of the
beauty of the world, that what you're getting is sort
of it's not a true reflection in terms of percentage
of everything that's going on that's negative. It's just the
percentage of news that is negative is much higher than
what's happening in reality. It's not to diminish those events,
(50:07):
but you must have to remind yourself, yeah, that there's
also way more good out there that just doesn't get
as much attention.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Agreed, one hundred percent right, And you know I tend
to I see the class half full all the time.
And Colin Powell is that his autobiography I read years ago,
and I remember that particular phrase about the being a
force multiplier, and his is one of his greatest thoughts
that I got.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
It's very simple, which I love.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
He would give the president his how do you say,
I give my best advice and I give him my
strongest loyalty, because even in his advice might be it
was given but not utilized, and maybe the exact opposite
was done and put out there and became the policy.
So at that point he after he had given his
(50:55):
his best shot to the president regarding what he thought,
when the conclusions were drawn, and when the group eventually
came to conc illusion, whatever it was put out there,
he backed at one hundred percent. So I utilized that
in a lot of meetings I had with my coaching staffs,
and even I think I utilize it with some players
and players meetings. Who's always thought that resonated when you're
(51:17):
talking about team and groups and unity. Yeah, we can
have some disagreements, but I want I want to know
exactly what you're thinking.
Speaker 3 (51:25):
Tell me what you think now what you've heard.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
But at the end of this, when we walk outside,
we're in front of the group, we have to show
the unified front, and so sometimes your opinion is voted down. However,
I need you to voice the group opinion at this point.
That's going to unify and not divide us.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Well said as always we always appreciate here. On the
Book of Joe, the best advice of Joe Madden is
always good. Great job. We'll see you next time. On
the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
All right, buddy, love it.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Daron, welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcast.
It's me Tom Berducci and of course Joe med Joe,
are you okay if we talked about the National League East,
(00:26):
because you got to help me out on what's going
on in the NL East.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, I've been, We've all been following it. Of course,
it is kind of crazy. Yes, I'm happy to talk
about that. I mean, I have a Mets theory kind
of but overall, yeah, it's kind of nuts good.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
We need to sip through a lot of it. Let's
start with the Phillies. Okay. They made an interesting sign
with Adolis Garcia, a guy who's non tendered by the
Texas Rangers, which really spells the end of days for
Nick Castillanos in Philadelphia. He's looking at some kind of
trade release, you name it, but there's no room there
(01:02):
to me anyway at Philadelphia outfield. Garcia is an interesting case, Joe.
When you look at a guy who's thirty three years old,
had a huge year in their World championship season a
couple of years ago, but in the last couple of years,
this dude has not been able to catch up to velocity.
Back in twenty three, he had seven home runs and
it slugged four to sixty five against Elite Velocity ninety
(01:23):
five and above. That's creator the last couple of years.
Lugged down to three twenty one in twenty four, and
then last year only one home run off Elite Velocity
and slugging three hundred. So I don't know how you
look at this, Joe. If you come with a veteran
joined your club, he's thirty three years old, you see
(01:44):
the decline in the last couple of years. You know,
there's always a tendency to say, hey, we can fix
this guy. We know that his defense is really good.
That's an upgrade there, certainly on Castianos, one of the
best throwing arms plus defender I think in right field.
But what's your take on acquiring a guy like this
who's had trouble and you're wondering at his age, whether
(02:06):
you know at this time it's going to continue to
be trouble or you can fix them with a guy
like Kevin Long.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah, I mean I think they put a lot of
faith in Kevin.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
My first thought would be, just how has he been
pitched to, and what have they been telling him?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
I want to go there first.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
You know, I was still managing when he was there
with the Rangers, and God, the guy was, you know,
so strong, he'd mishit balls.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
That that would go out.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You're right, he's I think he's an above average outfielder,
and the army is strong and accurate. My point is analytically,
how he had been pitched to and what was the
game plan? In other words, when he was hitting the fastball?
Did they start throwing a lot of breaking balls? And
all of a sudden he gets off the fastball, sits soft,
and all of a sudden here comes back to the
to the fastball. And I've lost something. I've lost my mindset,
(02:52):
my ability to fire on the fastball. I'm a little
bit late. I'm not seeing it as well.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Whatever, Well, I can tell you, Joe, to answer your question,
it's been a ton of fastballs. I mean they're not
getting them out with breaking pitches. I mean only Mike
Trout saw a higher percentage of ninety five plus fastballs
and did Garcia. And you know what, Mike, it's all
about getting that fastball above his hands. Right with Garcia
is just you know, beat him with velocity.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, once you that's it.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Though, once you've established that from a scouting perspective and
that you know that and you know, I saw it
with Mike also Trout, it makes it relatively easier, if
that makes sense for me, A major ly hitter has
got to be able to hit a fastball otherwise there's
no sense in even worrying about doing all these other things.
But I'm just curious if in fact they see something
(03:38):
as an issue like you're saying, Kevin is so good
at it. It is I think a classic example of
you know, we could fix him.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I think that's part of the conclusion.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Although they have somebody that normally can't fix a lot
of people, they're liking the defense.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
It's an upgrade right there.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
They feel like they're probably extrapolating how many home runs
he's gonna hit with the you know, the slug's gonna
eventually look like, and how does that play regarding you
know that the defense with the offense they can they
could get from him.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
So it's just got to be the Phillies cocktail.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
There's something they like about him, there's something they could
fix about him, and not too long ago he was
pretty good offensive league.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, I mean, listen, the Phillies are to me an
older team. We know that, you know, they're all in.
You know, we talk a lot and I hate this
word window about teams because teams evolve and teams like
that at the top of the market, they're not going
to take a step backward. So again, he's adding some
age there, I get it. But Castiano's just, you know,
(04:36):
again he's a guy who never really learned much played discipline,
and you know, didn't do himself any favors when he
essentially called out as manager last year Rob Thompson when
he questioned how well Rob Thompson communicated to players. Now,
it was an awkward time because they picked up Harris
and Bader, and you know, Joe's a manager. You get
a guy and you ride the hot hand. And Bader
played really well, more specifically, hit really well, took a
(04:58):
bats away from Castianos. So you know, you could see
this one coming, not that it was going to be Garcia,
but that the reduced playing time, if not roster spot
for Castianos was in jeopardy.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, I mean, once Nicky did kind of get I
don't know if there was attack, but there was definitely
a confrontation with Robbie. I mean that really set this
whole thing up. And to defend Robbie's position, he's got
to play the better hitter offensive player at that particular juncture.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
If it's that.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Noticeable, and I right, Nicky can't get into those stretches. Man,
he starts chasing everything. When I had him with the Cubbies,
he was outstanding, and there was a period of time
there with the Affilies he was too. However, there's always
that moment in time where he's going to just start
swinging at the slider down in a way and just
start chasing out of the zone and everything kind.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Of goes south.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
And if you don't have a better alternative, then of
course you just stay with it. But if you do,
it's up to the manager to make that kind of
a move. So I know Nicki well enough to understand
that he got upset. I'm sure after he thought about it,
he probably was contrite regarding what he said and maybe
how he said it. However, the damage had been done
and I'm looking at it from the perspective. I mean,
(06:08):
Robbie gets a contract extension and and with this particular move.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
The front office is supporting him.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
So there's a lot going on there that I think
everybody feels as though Robbie was in the right and
Nicki was not necessarily in the right, and it's it's
resulting in this. It's not a lateral move. I mean,
this guy, like you said, the defensively, there's definitely an
uptick there. And this guy's got huge power when things
are clicking properly for him, So I I could see it.
(06:36):
I want to wish Nikki well and getting on his
feet somewhere and success because he and I had a
really good relationship. He's a different cat, requires a lot
of a conversation, and NICKI did. He always came up
to before the game, almost not almost every game. Every
game we had a brief exchange regarding that night. So
there's there's a lot to like about. This guy is
(06:57):
very intense, but I understand what the Phillies.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Are doing right here.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, listen, he's only Garcia is only two years or
moved from a thirty nine home run season and you
mentioned Kevin Long and yeah, I mean he's one of
the best in the business. Long track record. I will
remind you though we heard a lot of these same
things about Max Kepler last year joining the Phillies. I
was not a big fan of that signing. I think
he's been an overrated ballplayer. He's a guy with some skills,
(07:22):
but the results just haven't been there. And it was
not a good year. I mean, his adjusted ops was
eighty eight. That's far below major league hitters, so the
average major league hitter. So we'll see what happens. But
I do like this taking a flyer on a Doley
scar seat at the Rangers. People tell me they would
not be surprised if he bounces back. They didn't know
(07:44):
he was going to Philly. But change the scenery. Apparently
it was not a great clubhouse last year in Texas.
Could be energized playing in that ballpark for that team.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, listen, I saw it. I saw missing this.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
This guy in Anaheim Stadium Angels Stadium would just power
the ball to center at right center.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
I thought he played hard.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
He's really strong, My god is he's strong. He runs
pretty good too, so tools wise, he's probably a larger
toolbox than maybe Nicky had overall, and I do I
like the gamble. I mean that ballpark in Philadelphia can
be kind to him also the way the ball flies
there on both sides. So it's just it's one of
(08:25):
those things, don't It's all upside I think for the
Phillies based on everything that had happened with Nick and
Robbie in the recent past. So I don't know if
they really wanted to choose someone other than him. Maybe
they had somebody else in their sides just couldn't think
it was going to get done and done on the
other side, Like I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Then, you've talked about it already.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Every team has, you know, they look at these guys
and then they'll go through their analytical departments and they'll
try to narrow down what exactly do he need does
this Fela need to do Differently, we're talking physically, mechanically
in order to be back to where he had been.
And I'm certain that they said in that room and
were convinced that, yeah, we can fix this guy. So
that's that's part of it and why they're doing that.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
They get a up great defensively.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, let's talk about the braves now, Joe. You know,
every year I remind people of this and people seem
to just forget it that every year there's at least
one team and usually two or three that make the
playoffs coming off a losing season. And their early favorite
for the twenty twenty six season, the Atlanta Braves. To me,
you know, they won only seventy six games. I think
(09:25):
they've had a really good offseason, Joe, when you look
at this team, and a lot of it was injuries
to their pitchers last year, but they just resigned Hassan
Kim to play shortstop on a one year deal. I
like that signing Robert Suarez added to the bullpen after
resigning Iglesias as their closer. And as far as death goes,
I mean, you can't pick up better pieces coming off
(09:47):
the bench to Michael Yu Streemsky and Mauricio Dubon. We
know how much their everyday players play. You know, they
like to run the same lineup out there. But man,
I've been impressed with some of the pickups by the
Atlanta Braids this year.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Well, I think you just mentioned some really good bench
pickups and then maybe they have thought to realize we
have to rest these guys a little bit more often
and not just have them try to pleably one sixty
two guys. I know that's been their their methods for
years and it's been very, very successful, no question. However,
they may have come to terms with that when you
(10:19):
get bench players like this, These guys got to play
if in fact they are bench players or eventually become
more on a regular basis, but they're really good players. Yes,
I think it just all indicates maybe a little bit
different philosophy regarding how we're going to approach today. I like,
you know, I like the idea of resting guys. Would
(10:39):
you like to rest guys with guys that are good replacements? So,
you know, with the cubbies you're having like a Zobras
playing all over the place, it was very easy to
rest somebody when you put somebody out there like that
at a different position. So when you have when you
have a bench full of competency, it's a lot easier
for manager to go ahead and throw a different name
out there and and be on board with giving people rest.
(11:02):
So it all, it all makes sense to me based
on what had happened to them over the last couple
of years.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, and last year we should point out the they
dip below the competitive balance tax threshold. They had been
above it in twenty three and twenty four, and like
a lot of teams, they reset their tax by getting
underneath it. Didn't want to get that third straight year
to get into the higher tax brackets. So they're going
to be above it back again in twenty twenty six.
(11:28):
Their payroll is going from about two oh eight million
to two forty five. So I think it's money money
well spent in terms of the depth. Great point on
your part about you know, maybe resting these guys a
little bit more. I know Matt Olsen specifically never wants
to take a day off, but in general, not a
bad idea to uh, to go to that so called
(11:49):
load management. Now we get to the New York Mets.
You got to help me out here, Joe. I know
it's we're still I don't know if it's early in
the winter, but it's not a finished product for sure.
But you know, they signed they signed Jorge Polanco to
replace Pete Alonzo at first base. Devin Williams will be
their closer with Edwin Diaz going out to Los Angeles
and the Dodgers. Listen, you know, for Diaz, it's hard
(12:12):
to criticize the New York Mets because essentially the Dodgers
are too attractive a team. The Mets were right there,
same ballpark, wanted to keep the pitcher, and he just
wanted to go to the Dodgers. What are you going
to do? It was clear from last year the Mets
were not going to get into a long term deal
for Pee Alonzo and you're not going to keep the
player that way. The market was too good, especially once
Kyle Schwarber signs a five year deal. You know, Schwarber
(12:35):
does not play defense, and he's a year or two
older than Pete Alonzo. You knew he was getting a
five year deal. Good on Baltimore to jump in. I
really liked that fit with Baltimore. Question is where do
the Mets go from here? What kind of team they have?
We just talked about the Braves. We know what the
Phillies are the National League East. You know you've got
to win ninety plus games to win that division and
the Mets don't look like that right now. And again,
we'll see how it plays out. But does this team
(12:58):
need another big bet, especially in the outfield, or where
do they go?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, they're trying to it's kind of a small market mentality.
I think I think they've had all these other guys.
You know, of course they do have Soto, and I
can't say that's small market in Lindor.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
That's obviously big market.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
But I read a lot about Stearns wanting to get
into run prevention a little bit more. They felt that
their defense was lacking last year. So it just seems
to me that they're getting more like a well rounded
kind of a player. They whoever this player is, he
has to read well defensively to not just like, well,
he could out hit some of his mistakes. We'd like
(13:35):
his offense a lot. We'll work with them on defense.
I think they've really come to terms with we're gonna
we're gonna play a better game of defense, and the
run prevention is going to be kind of like it's
going to help augment the power that we may be
lacking by not having these power hitters in the lineup.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So it just it just seems like a.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Paradigm shift regarding philosophy, you know, with Cohen there, and
of course he just got his new casino right next
to the city field. I mean, of course there's a
lot of dough going on there. But I think they're
just looking at it like, well, you know, Stearns in
Milwaukee wasn't necessarily about building through these large contracts with
big bangers, et cetera. There's bailiwick as Strong's points were
(14:15):
to build it through these this variety of different moving
pieces and parts, and I don't know, it kind of
looks like that to me. And then the other part
was just the clubhouse in general. I mean guys leaving there.
You know, he came in with all the Valley Who
a couple of years ago, with the money being spent
and all the you know, the different ways are going
about out of their way to make players comfortable. Sodo
(14:36):
talked about it. But then at the end of the
day when Soda in the door, if there's really anything
to that that's it almost seems like the exodus is
based on there certain things guys didn't like, and I
know what Dias did, and I know, you know again
it was a Dodgers, but I'm just curious, as there's
something more to that that's just really repelling some of
these guys. Anyway, I think the Nemo gone is a
(14:57):
good thing. I listened to Nemo talk a lot. I
know he's regarded in some ways, but I think him
Soto and the door it might have been too much.
So I'm curious how this all works out. But it's
like a there's some clup clubhouse.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Drama going on.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And then again, I think from Stearns's perspective, again, I
don't know anything, but it just seems like he's more
comfortable operating under these circumstances like in Milwaukee would operate
as opposed.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
To the New York Mets with this huge amount of money.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I think you're right, and I think there was a
little bit of that Andrew Freed and Andrew Friedman when
he first got to the Dodgers and he learned to
change Sterns as. I think you're right dead on Joe.
He wants to build his team around run prevention, so
defense is a big part of putting a team together.
I know he wants a very athletic, multi positional type
player on his roster, and he has some good young
(15:48):
players coming up through the system. Maybe I'm not sure
how many are ready right now, but he definitely wants
to fold those ones in. It's just an interesting fit
right now. You know, you know Simi It at second
base in his mid thirties for three years now. Lanco
at first base in his thirties with some leg issues
at you know the last few years, hit the ball
(16:09):
great for Seattle last year. Don't get me wrong, I
really like the player, but they're betwixt and between right
now when I look at this team. The young pitching,
you know, he does not Sterns does not want to
give any starting pitcher more than a four year contract,
which will take you out of the top of the
market when you have that kind of thinking. So listen,
we need to see this play out, you know, if
(16:31):
they meant make a big splash for a big bat
at Kyle Tucker, which I probably don't see happening, but
market doesn't incomplete right now. But man, there's some pressure
on Sterns and the Mets to really improve this roster
because right now, to me, Joe, they don't measure up
to the phillies of the Braves.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, and again, I've read about and heard about these
young players that they have and probably wanted to push
them through. But I just think again, Stern's his comfort zone.
He likes to put it together this way, and I
think he likes the ing and yang. He likes the
platoon advantage kind of stuff, the position flexibility that you
just mentioned.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Which I love too. I loved all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I think it's great because we operated with the Rays
where you're not going to go out and spend a
huge amount of money on one or two guys because
we can never afford to be wrong.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Now the Mets could afford to be wrong.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
That's that's something they can afford to be But I
don't know that he's convinced that that's the right way
to do things.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
I think he's looked at it the last couple of.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Years and again going back to who you are, which
your DNA is all about how he arrived there and
being true to all that stuff, and he seems to
be obviously a very bright man. So I'm just saying
he's going back into his comfort zone and he's going
to build it the way he sees the right way
to build it. He's gonna he wants to build it
for uh, like you said, not necessarily a window, but
(17:45):
for a long amount of time. He's already got some
superstars there, so now maybe just get you a better
supporting cast that on a daily basis we can rely
on to matchup better against the other team. And we
know we put a picture out there. That's the big thing.
You have a picture. The pictures are required at twenty seven,
and we start giving up twenty eight, twenty nine, thirty outs.
(18:06):
And that's not just necessarily errors. That's by places you
thought you should have made that you do not, based
on maybe a lack of range throwing accuracy. The ball
that you know could have been out with the better
defenders is considered to hit because maybe the ball bounces
from an awkward throwing position. You know, outfielder is just
not getting to a particular spot. So that's a big
(18:27):
part of defense that doesn't get enough recognition is the
plays that should have been made that are not and
are not necessarily airs. And I want to believe, I
would believe that that's a big part of their evaluation too.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, you're one hundred percent right, you know. I spoke
with David Stearns about that and the way his team
collapsed in the last couple of months of the season,
and he did say the biggest takeaway was that they
just did not play clean baseball. It didn't always show
up in the errors, but he thought that was the
undermining part that was the taste he took away from
the season that we really need to clean it up.
And don't forget, they pretty much wiped out their coaching
(19:00):
staff as well, so Carlos Mendoza has a different staff here.
You know, the Mets right now they're searching. They do
not have the kind of stability that the Phillies and
the Braves have, and they better find it quickly. We're
gonna take a quick break, Joe. When we get back.
Let's talk about the starting pitcher market. We know there
was a rush out there in free agency to build
(19:21):
up bullpens, and see that happen at the trade deadline
as well every year. But what about starting pictures? Who
would you take a flyer on? And I want to
talk about one of Joe's old starting pitchers who may
be done in the major leagues after a long career.
We'll talk about all that right after this on the
Book of Joe. All right, jer let's talk about the
(19:51):
starting picture market free agency. And I want to start
with fran Barvaldez. This guy cannot throw a ball straight
right if he tried to, he couldn't. He's got so
much movement on the ball. He's a ground ball machine.
Lots of like a about him. He's been really pretty durable.
He's had ups in the postseason and man, he's had
some bad downs in the postseason. Overall, track wreck in
(20:12):
the postseason is not what you think it is. It's
really not that good. But I want to ask you this, Joe,
if you're the manager of a team thinking about signing
from Bravaldez, don't you have to sit down with him
and ask him about that incident last year where he
essentially threw a pitch that hit his catcher, where he
crossed them up. A lot of people thought it was intentionally.
The worst part about it, whether it was intentional or not.
(20:34):
After his catcher gets smoked with a fastball that he
didn't think was coming, Valdez had no concern for his catcher,
actually turned his back on it, like, go ahead and
wear it. I don't know about you, Joe, but if
I'm a GM or manager, that's the first question I got.
Well maybe not the first, but when I do sit
down with him or talk to the agent, I got
to get chapter and verse on that incident.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yeah, we talked about it when that occurred, and I
absolutely believe it was intentional. I believe it's intentional, and
there's no other way you can convince me otherwise. It
just is, and especially be based on his reaction. You're right,
I mean that needs to be clarified. I don't know
if he's done it once, he's going to do it again.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Maybe not, but that's not even the point. It's just
the attitude in general. Why would you even do it
one time? There's something smoldering there. Possibly maybe you just
didn't like the guy. I don't know, I don't know
what it was all about. But yes, that's a great
question to be asked, and honestly, I think I would
have that research as well as I possibly can't, and
I'm sure they have before even.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Speaking with him.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
It's one of those things you want to know the
answer before you ask the question to see you know
exactly where's going to come from and how he responds
to it, because there's no way to defend it. And
I mean for me, you know, if I'm sitting across
the table, I'm really interested in him and ask him
that question, I would prefer the Jack Ryan approach right there.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
You know what I screwed up?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah I did. I screwed up. I should obviously should
have never done. It'll never happen again. I don't know
what got into me in that moment. I would be like,
you got to go Jack Ryan on that. If you're
Ramber and Drack is like the protagonist in the novels
with Clancy, just yes, admit it, admit it. And I'm
not saying he has to admit it necessarily publicly, but
(22:13):
he has to admit it in the room with the
guys that he's gonna eventually possibly be employed by. I mean,
for me, that'd be the best tact to get it
out there, you know, pick the scab, have it heel up,
and then eventually start building from there. Because if there's not,
if there's still a disingenuous answer, it's hard to trust
(22:34):
that this guy is really going to be the guy
to take you to the promised land.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
That's a great point, and I agree, especially when you're
talking about he's not going to sign some short term deal.
This is a long term marriage with his next team.
Interesting to me that the Astros don't seem to be
interested at all in a guy who they signed and
developed and had a lot of success with. I know
there's some warning signes here. Don't get me wrong. I
like the picture, but unless I'm in the room with
(23:00):
him and really hear it from him, I definitely have
concerns the rest of the market. Joe, You've still got
Ranger Suarez out there. You've got Zach Gallan, You've got
Michael King. I thought the Diamondbacks made a great signing
getting Merle Kelly back there. Two years, forty million dollars. Man,
that's a bargain, I mean, short term, two years less
(23:23):
than a qualifying offer for a guy who can pitch
towards the top of a rotation, a pitch maker, strike thrower.
I thought that was a really good signing of that group.
I like Zach Gallan, Joe. I mean, I know people
are down on him. They looked at the numbers overall
last year not good. But if you watched him in
the last two months of the season, that was the
(23:43):
same as Zach Gallan that was contending for Cy Young's
pitching in the World Series, pitching at the front of
a rotation. He just didn't have, for whatever reason, the
feel and his breaking pitches and off speed pitches, the curveball,
change up combo in those first three or four months
of the season. I went back and looked at some film,
and I noticed when he was throwing the curveball, especially
(24:04):
his arm after release would be sweeping kind of around
his hip. And the last two months of the season
I saw the finish was more like that traditional you know,
pulling the lampshade down with a hand, was continuing down,
finishing lower and really putting more finished on that pitch.
And he had more break to it. Throwing a little
bit softer with more break. That was the answer to it.
(24:26):
So I that group I would I didn't even call
it a flyer, but I'd be interested in Zach Gallam
with faith that the last two months of the season
he got back to where he should be.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, he's when he's good, he's really good. I didn't
watch it that closely. That's those are really good points.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
I like all them.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Actually, I've always liked Suarez too. King I saw briefly
when he's with the Yankees. Evans I didn't watch as
much with the Padres. Been reading a lot about that.
Maybe possibly coming back to the Al East.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I mean, that's that's right there, it would be. I'd
have to do a little bit more deep dive. This
is a this is a perfect moment for your analytical team.
I think this is exactly what I talk about where
I say that analytics really play a big part in
November December baseball, where you're trying to dissect among these
(25:16):
three really good players pitchers, who do we like the
best and why? How do they fit into our ballpark?
Our defense? What kind of defense do they need? I
don't see them among the three. Then probably King has
the most sing miss or maybe Gallon on a good day.
So what do we got here? And the ball and
play more with Suarez? But we like it because it's
soft contact kind of a thing. So this is again
(25:39):
we always talk about analytics and how it pertains to
the day. It pertains to the day to a certain extent,
but it really has a chance to be the superstar
this time of the year when you're trying to dissect
and understand who do we want. Let's get into this car,
who do we want? So I don't know enough to
know exactly among the three. The guy I've seen pitch
(26:01):
the most is Suarez, and I know he's off and
on a little bit at times, but sometimes I just
saw his confidence look to be ebbing and flowing sometimes
because when this guy's on, he just he pitches more
deeply into the game, and I like the left handed
pitch that never gets there sometimes.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
So that's it.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I'm going to defer to my analytical department, and I'd
really want to hear what they have to say about
this and break it down and really describe to me
how he fits in our guys and how it fits
into our guys defensively, because that's going to be a
big part of I think why a group chooses one
or the other.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
It's fascinating to me that the industry just jumped out
so fast on relief pitching. You know, maybe Pete Fairbanks
is the last guy out there, but a rush to
lock up these guys who can pitch late in the
game and not so much for starting pitching. And at
the end of the year we always talk about, you know,
how many innings can your rotation pick up? And the
teams that don't get a lot typically are in trouble,
(26:58):
the Dodgers being an exception, just because they're so darn deep.
But yeah, I think the value of relief pitching as
we're seeing here this offseason, it should be hired. To
be quite honest with you, you know I want some
proven guys in my rotation.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, I mean, listen, I've always believed and I still believe,
a good starting pitching makes for a better bullpen when
you start laying off that many innings on the guys
and the pen on a nightly basis, and I know,
you know you want about the leverage moments and who's
in the right guy for the eighth and in the
ninth inning. And sometimes some teams don't even want to
define closer for that reason. But when you have a
(27:32):
defined closer, you know it's going to get those last
couple outs, then it makes those first eight innings easier
somewhat to try to puzzle together piece it together. I
just don't understand that mindset whereas you on a nightly
basis you want to attempt to juggle four innings of
clean baseball from your bullpen, and especially in the world
(27:56):
where there is the three batter minimum, that makes it
even more problematic for me because there's got to be
some bad matchups in there that you're forced to have
based on the fact that you just can't go to the
bullpen for the better matchup, the left on left situation, whatever.
So listen, whenever I had to go to the bullpen
in the sixth inning, it was tough, man. And if
you do it almost every night or often enough, god,
(28:17):
you get a bunch of exhausted bullpen guys. You're always
unless you have like these the dynamic group that pitched
with the Rails several years ago, with the way Davids
spearheading the whole thing, and that's different, but that doesn't
happen every year. To rely on perfection, and that's what
you expect that you relief pictures perfection, and that's always
been my you know, after the game, you have to
(28:37):
answer the questions to the media and you'll make a
decision to bring somebody in or take somebody out, and
it doesn't work out, and all of a sudden, that
is the focal point of the discussion. And I always
have listen, guys, you hold the relief pictures to an
impossible standard of perfection, and that's what we do.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
So take a little pressure off them.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I like, if you could get starters to go six
and when they go six plus and when you start
to get into the realm, of seven.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
My god, what a difference it makes just mashing up.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
The bullpenp properly and again with the three better minimum
and providing rest.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
So I don't get it. I know everybody wants they
all want to.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Miss bats and they want the fresh armory. But at
the end of the year, how many guys are buying
for the championship on an annual basis? Come on, guys,
let's get some starters that can go more deeply into
the game.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
And speaking of starters, I mentioned this earlier. Joe one
of your starting pitchers with the Chicago Cubs. You darvish
he may be done in baseball. This is nothing official,
of course, but he is going to need another surgery
on his elbow. He's got a torn flexor tendon and
he's got damage to the ulnar collateral ligament. He will
(29:45):
not pitch in twenty twenty six. He's got three years
remaining on his contract, forty six million dollars left on
his contract. He's thirty nine years old. Does he come
back and pitch in twenty seven? Who knows? This is
a guy who had Tommy John surgery in twenty fifteen.
He had Arthur Scottpeck elbow twenty eighteen. He had a
stress reaction in the elbow in twenty twenty three, So
(30:09):
you know, listen, we're a long way off, but listen,
this guy's had a great career. When I think Joe
about people who can spin the baseball, he's one of
the first names for me that comes to mind. It
just his ability to spin the baseball and command it
just remarkable. And what a career he has had, whether
it's over or not. If you combine his seven years
(30:32):
in Japan his thirteen years in the major leagues, two
hundred and eight wins, thirty three hundred strikeouts, four hundred
and sixty one games started. Now, if you just look
at the Major League totals, his strikeout rate over of
all the pitchers with at least seventeen hundred innings, it
(30:55):
is the fourth highest strikeout rate of all time. Chris
Sale number one, Randy Johnson number two, Mac Shure's are
number three, and you d are number four. And I
can tell you this that the Padres love him so
much they want him around even while he's rehabing. This
guy helped out a lot. Randy Vasquez and some of
the other pictures on the Padres team. His pitching intellect
(31:18):
is off the charts. I actually think he's been an underrated,
underappreciated picture in the game, Joe, and I know you
probably feel differently because you had him.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
First of all, start as a human being, he's wonderful.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
He really is.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
His family, his kids, His son used to come and
shag and at Wrigley and center field would be like
thirty degrees out. He's out there with shorts and a
T shirt on. He's running the fly balls down. What
a great kid, you Darbysh is all and I understand
it completely why the.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Padres want him around.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Well, we're talking about when you talk about spinning the ball,
he has. He has as good a feel for what
he was doing as any guy, any pitcher I've had then,
And honestly the next guy would be like show, Hey,
it's something in bred and the up in the culture
when they pitch. I mean, these guys, they have this
ability to spin the ball, and they got these deliveries
(32:11):
that are normally under control. They're never getting out in front.
It's a controlled slower, almost this hesitation or pause. They'll
throw the shoot though the split and I don't even
know and I still believe that has something to do
with the elbow injuries, and I'd have to be proven otherwise.
So I think you just have to accept the fact
that it's going to pop up at some point. However,
if in fact, I don't know that the surgery he
(32:32):
is horrible, it's going to be. But I would bet
that he's going to do everything he possibly can to
come back and pitch again, I would think. And then
if he gets to that point, if he can't do
it anymore, he's just going to say I can't do
it anymore. But this guy, he went out to the
bullpen and Wrigley one day and he's walking past Kyle Hendricks.
Kyle has that great you talk about an air bending changeup.
(32:53):
Kyle is one of the best. Walking by Colin. He says,
show me the grip, show me the grip on your changeup.
So he goes out to the pen and he's working
on the change up with this grip and comes in
and Bzilso's heads up.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Watch this.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
So during the course of that game he starts throwing
this change up. But I mean it was like really
well done, was good. It was like swing and miss
arms feed everything else.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Who does that.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Who walks out to a bullpen a major league pitcher
having that kind of feel and understanding of his arm
and his body and what's going on to take a
new grip and then take it into a major league
game and be successful with it.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
I'm just a huge fan. I wish him nothing but
the best.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I hope it works out well enough he wants to
pitch again, that he does, and if he doesn't, that
he doesn't. But I could totally understand why an organization
would want this fellow. Communicatively, I really enjoyed my conversations
with him.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
You made a great point that I had not thought
about Joe in terms of kind of the Japanese style
of pitching. And I can see it in my mind's
eye right now when you're talking about and you mentioned
Showhy does this as well in Darbish Yamamoto, Kokuchi, a Managa, Sasaki.
They all are never in a hurry. It's just to
(34:05):
kind of gather and go where they're over the rubber
for a long time. Very athletic, very balanced. Like Robin
Roberts used to say a long time ago, if you're
gonna hurry, hurry at the end, right And I could
see and I saw this in the postseason where Yamamoto
would be miming his delivery in the dugout in between innings,
(34:26):
just kind of perfecting the timing of it. Nobody seems
to be as you mentioned, you know, spinning off their heel,
falling off to the first base side. I like to
watch pitchers who keep a very still head when they throw,
where it doesn't go off to the side, it doesn't drop.
I watched Greg Mannix's head and it's like a great hitter.
It never moved the strike. Throwers just watch their heads
(34:48):
and you just hit on something. I think with the
Japanese style of pitching, I think that, you know, I
got to pay more attention to now because they all
do seem to have that trait where they're so well balanced,
kind of start slow, They're never in a hurry over
the back leg.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
What goes back to instructionally, Back in the eighties, they
had the Tokyo Giants used to come over and had
a picture named Keita built kind of like darbish.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
I think it was Keda something to that effect.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Four letters, big tall, right hander, great split the thing
that I and big velocity too. I went up to
their manager, their manager on pseudo, and I asked them,
you know, to talk to the pitching coach, and I
wanted to know, why do they all have such great command?
Why are all your pitchers of great command? And they
throw the ball, excuse me, down on the zone. And
(35:36):
the pitching coach said to me, chin down. So what
you said, chin down? Your American pitchers, your face goes
up in the air. You're always left in your chin
up in the air. What he wanted was the pitcher
to have his chin down as he threw the ball,
which I think, probably you think about it promotes a
more still head, and I agree with that. I mean,
(35:57):
you watch guys throw a ball real well, whether it's
a football, baseball, whatever ball or hitters that are really
good that head Jack Nicholas with golf, everything that everything
rotates around that axis, that stays still, so chin down.
That was my explanation given to me. I used to
talk to these guys all the time because they're fundamentally
I thought they were better than us. I mean even
(36:19):
catcher's blocking balls, oh my god, the Japanese catchers and
instructional League. I never seen guys block balls that well.
And when I went over to Fitch Park and they
were practicing over there before a game.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
I was watching him.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
They'd get a shopping or excuse me, a closed basket
full of baseballs, and a coach would stand on the
rubber facing home plate with the fungo and the catcher
would be in full gear with also extra protection on
his forearms, and the coach would drill balls to home
plate with the fungo to a catcher who was just
(36:56):
basically like a hockey goalie. It was conventionally right out
of me to do this great technique, if not just
knock it down somehow. These guys were fabulous at blocking
balls in the dirt. We overpowered them overall at that point.
But teaching wise, finesse wise, fundamentally wise, I really liked
(37:16):
their their what they look like in their methods. So
none of this is a surprise. They they teach us
from from Jump Street. And that's why I think a
lot of these guys do have great command and great
finish on their pitches, because like you just suggested, they're
never jumping out at the plate.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, and they drill a lot over there, no question
about it. The work on the fundamentals, I love that
idea about putting patting on their forearms. Really, I'll keep
you in there and blocking balls.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yep, yeah, dude, these are bullets.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
These are like bullets, and I'm watching it's going god
you and I was a former catcher.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I thought that would have been fun. I really did.
I thought that would have been fun.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Hey, we're going to take a quick break when we
come back. We'll get just out of the day, as
we always do. But I also want to talk about
an incredible baseball life, baseball community lost to someone who
had a career unlike almost anyone else. And we'll talk
about that right after this on the Book of Joe.
(38:25):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe. I'm not sure
if you saw this. The name is not a household name.
George Altman passed away. He was ninety two years old.
What a career. He's one of the few people in
baseball history who played in the Negro leagues, in the
Major leagues and in Japan. How about that. He also
(38:47):
was the first guy to hit two home runs in
the same game off Sandy Kofak, something that Ernie Banks
later did. But yeah, he went from the Kansas City
Monarchs to Major League Baseball, where he was a really
good player for the Cubs. Got traded to the Cardinals
and then traded to the Mets, and then back to
the Cubs and went often. Had a great career in
Japan as well. He died at ninety two. He was
(39:10):
the oldest living New York Met at the time. It
was interesting I mentioned traded to the Mets. He get
traded to the Mets after the sixty three season for
Roger Craig. Remember Roger Craig. Yeah, with the sixty two
Mets and sixty three Mets. The general manager George Weiss
was asked about dealing Roger Craig, who was a very
(39:31):
popular player, a great guy on those teams. Weis had
a great line. He said, well, when a guy loses
forty six games, we're talking about two years. When a
guy loses forty six games, I think it's time for
a change. He was traded for George Altman came over
to play for Casey Stangle. But what a fascinating career
(39:53):
all total, in all those leagues, he wound up hitting
three hundred and fifty nine home runs. I mean, you
know that guy loved baseball. When you continue to play
literally all around the world.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Isn't it great? That's that's so, that is baseball.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
You know, the generation at the time we grew up within,
that kind of a story really resonates. It was purely
for the love of the game and and everybody that
everybody that surrounded him.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
It's just that the.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Purest, the most purest sense of the game of baseball
was not lost on anybody in that generation or a
player like Altman. And I do remember him briefly with
the Cardinals sixty three, I believe briefly with the Cardinals
and had his baseball card because that's when I that
was the my first year I became officially a Saint
Louis Baseball Cardinal fan going into sixty four. Yeah, I remember,
(40:45):
I remember is the card I remember all of that
to play in multi continents and and just purely play
because he loved it. It's wonderful and I'm so happy,
like you know that you brought it up. And these
are the kind of things we can't forget about. I mean,
this is the again, you don't necessarily read or hear that,
(41:06):
or in today's game, you don't really expect a lot
of guys or anybody to do what a George Altman
did and probably not required anymore. But it's so cool
to hear that kind of a story because it really
speaks to the essence of why we played this game.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, when he was thirty eight years old, he's playing
for the Lote Orions. This is back in nineteen seventy one.
He had thirty nine home runs at the age of
thirty eight, So it's a big left handed hitting dude. Yeah,
you're right. He played for the sixty three Cardinals. So
now the oldest living met from what most people can establish,
(41:40):
is a guy by the name of John de Merit
who turns ninety years old in January. He played on
the nineteen sixty two Mets. Actually he started his career.
He was a local guy drafted by the Milwaukee Braves
and he played ninety three games with the Braves at
a buck seventy four. Was an outfielder. He got picked
in the expansion Draft by the Mets. So he goes
(42:01):
to the Mets and didn't play a whole lot. Casey
Stangel didn't use him a lot, and so the Mets
sent him to Syracuse. They sold his contract to Triple
A and he decided to retire at that point. That's
John de Merritt, who's now the oldest New York met
turning ninety years old in January.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
I wonder if there's any relationship to Marty de Merrit.
Marty recently passed away. Marty's one of them classic classic
characters in the game of baseball.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Former major league pitching coach.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
He used to run the San Francisco Giants minor leagues
for years as a pitching coach. God, no bigger character,
no more fun guy, no more bigger personality. I think
he ended up living in Venezuela at the in his
last days. But Marty, their an instructional league in Arizona,
which it would be hundred and five hundred and ten.
(42:51):
You're playing in October September, October. You go out to
the pitching mount. He had zinc all over his redhead
with all over his face, and he would have his
jacket on like not the lightweight jacket. He'd have the heavy,
giant check with a talet around his neck.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
And he'd walk out.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
To the mound in his bombastic way, and he put
his hands on the shoulders of the pitcher. He was
going to talk to with his nose about I went
eight inches away from the fellow's nose, and he would
just inspire his pitching staff.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
They all loved Marty.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
DeMeritt eventually was with the Rays. And anyway, it's a
true character of the game. And there's another guy, not
unlike Altman, that did his work all throughout baseball wherever
it existed, and was a true character of the game.
And these are the kind of guys that really do miss.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
No absolutely And I love hearing anything about the sixty
two Mets because one of the greatest characters ever, Casey Stengele,
was the manager of that team. And actually, DEMI wasn't
a big fan of Casey's as I said, he really
didn't play a whole lot. And he said Casey used
to fall asleep during games and other players had to
(44:01):
translate the Stengle Lees as it was known to to
Marry He's like, what's he talking about? So he wasn't
a big fan of Casey, But how can you not
be a fan of Casey and the colorful character that
he was.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Whitey Herzog was a big fan of Casey. Whitey thought
he was one of the smartest baseball guys he ever met.
Just as an example, and I got this from Whitey.
I think it was Whitey. You know, sacrifice Bot was
very popular back then, and white excuse me, Casey would
have his pictures. He wanted to throw, like runners on
first and second, throw a breaking ball in a bunch
(44:32):
situation for a strike, because it took longer to get
to the play, which then permitted you was a pitcher,
to get closer to the third baseline to possibly make
that play off of the breaking ball pitch. Now, I
don't know, think about it, there's going to be a
little bit time difference in that, but the fact to
take it to that level, and I'd love to know
how often it maybe did or did not work. But nevertheless,
(44:52):
it's one of those thoughts. So probably something I would
have thought of at some point, but I got it
from from Whitey, and then of course nobody bunch anymore,
so there's no real reason to.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Try to put it to a test.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
But that was something that Whitey told me, and he
also told me that he just thought case is one
of the brightest baseball minds he was ever around.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
That's fascinating. I've never heard that before, because you know,
Traditionally they say the high fastball is the harder pitch
to bunt. So let's see a lot of high fastballs
first pitches. When you think a team might be bunting.
What do you think? You think, Hey, there's a merit
to that. I do, or would you? Is the curveball
easier to bunt than a high fastball?
Speaker 2 (45:30):
It might be, but if you're in position to field it,
then you get to out of third basis, which is
what he was after anyway. No, the high fastball is
way more difficult to actually bunt. But who had like
a really great high fastball back then. I don't know
what the velocities were, but I think that if in fact,
you could get your pitcher in a position to feel
the bundy bet, a good fielding pitcher with a good
(45:51):
breaking ball you could throw for a strike, all these
these things would be factor as part of the pregame conversation.
Another thing, like you look at Billy Martin. I worked
with Lee Walls. Lee Walls is a very good outfield coach.
He was part of Billy's mafia back in the day.
But Billy would have is when the picture was fresh
early in the game, he would have his outfielders play
(46:12):
up more tightly, and as the game was in progress,
he would have them spread out as long as the
Saint pitcher was in the game, because as he got tired,
he thought that the pitcher might be more apt to
get hit hard.
Speaker 3 (46:22):
Now, it's just something small.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
I mean, we didn't have the sophistication of data and
analytics back then as they do now. But that was
Billy's analytical mind was as the picture was fresher, played
tighter because the ball wasn't going to be hit as one.
As the pitcher got two more pitches, a little bit
more tired, let's open this up. Outfielders a little bit
more deep into the outfield. And that's the way he
worked his analytical mind playing defense back in the day
(46:45):
in the outfield.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
And Billy was Casey's guy, that was his mentor, Billy Martin.
Casey stangled that connection there. And yeah, I covered Billy
Martin when he was managing the Yankees, and I totally
agree with any indication that that guy was a baseball genius.
He really was, you know, issues off the field for sure, absolutely,
and it kind of declined his baseball sharpness if you will,
(47:10):
in those later years managing. But my goodness, that guy
was a baseball genius.
Speaker 3 (47:15):
I never got to be around him. I wish I had.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
So that brings us here to our thought of the day, Joe,
you always finish up with some words of wisdom. Here,
What do you have for us today?
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Well, it's going extending beyond the baseball field right now,
just based on the world events and how awful things
are right now. However, and even though there's a lot
of bad stuff going on, you still gotta you still
got to work to unify and band together and find
solutions to some very difficult problems.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
We just do.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I got two once from Ann Frank and I had
the distinct I guess it is pleasure to actually visit
the apartment that she lived in above in Amsterdam, and
pleasure in the sense that respect ominous feeling that you
get walking up into that that room and that grouping
(48:07):
of rooms that they had remained silent all day long.
In these rooms they could even flush toilets because people
were working down below, and they would give themselves up.
But she, she said, I don't think of all the misery,
but of the beauty that still remains. That was from
her and you could imagine a young girl like that
having that thought. And then, my guy, we've talked about
(48:28):
this before, Colin Powell, that perpetual optimism is a force
multiplier that we just got it.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
We just got to stay, We got to keep seeking.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Answers, We got to make hard decisions and try to
move this thing forward and do the right thing for everybody.
It's just it's just difficult. I'm a news watcher and
I guess that's part of my problem. And we all
have to be able to somehow come to grips with
what's going on and then move it forward. And so
(48:58):
optimism is still a big part of this And in
spite of all the misery, there is still a beauty
that remains that we have to try to bring to
the forefront and permeate to rest with. So anyway, in
this holiday season, just got to keep moving it forward, man.
And is there really difficult moments to get beyond. And
we will get beyond them, but we have to come
together trying to find unifying solutions to these really dramatically
(49:21):
difficult problems.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
That is a great reminder, Joe, anytime of year, but
especially this time of year, because there have been studies,
and this is factually true that bad news travels like
four times as fast as good news. So you mentioned
if you're a newswatcher, and it's hard not to be
these days because it's so ubiquitous, but most of it
does tend to be negative, and I think you almost
(49:45):
have to remind yourself, and the words of man Frank
certainly is served better than my words here of the
beauty of the world, that what you're getting is sort
of it's not a true reflection in terms of percentage
of everything that's going on that's negative. It's just the
percentage of news that is negative is much higher than
what's happening in reality. It's not to diminish those events,
(50:07):
but you must have to remind yourself, yeah, that there's
also way more good out there that just doesn't get
as much attention.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Agreed, one hundred percent right, And you know I tend
to I see the class half full all the time.
And Colin Powell is that his autobiography I read years ago,
and I remember that particular phrase about the being a
force multiplier, and his is one of his greatest thoughts
that I got.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
It's very simple, which I love.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
He would give the president his how do you say,
I give my best advice and I give him my
strongest loyalty, because even in his advice might be it
was given but not utilized, and maybe the exact opposite
was done and put out there and became the policy.
So at that point he after he had given his
(50:55):
his best shot to the president regarding what he thought,
when the conclusions were drawn, and when the group eventually
came to conc illusion, whatever it was put out there,
he backed at one hundred percent. So I utilized that
in a lot of meetings I had with my coaching staffs,
and even I think I utilize it with some players
and players meetings. Who's always thought that resonated when you're
(51:17):
talking about team and groups and unity. Yeah, we can
have some disagreements, but I want I want to know
exactly what you're thinking.
Speaker 3 (51:25):
Tell me what you think now what you've heard.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
But at the end of this, when we walk outside,
we're in front of the group, we have to show
the unified front, and so sometimes your opinion is voted down. However,
I need you to voice the group opinion at this point.
That's going to unify and not divide us.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Well said as always we always appreciate here. On the
Book of Joe, the best advice of Joe Madden is
always good. Great job. We'll see you next time. On
the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
All right, buddy, love it.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
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