The Book of Joe: Schwarber signing highlights MLB Winter Meetings

Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci discuss the MLB Winter Meetings with Tom joining us from Orlando.  Kyle Schwarber re-signs with the Phillies and Joe explains how both sides fit each other so well.   How did the Schwarber deal help shape the future of Pete Alonso in Baltimore? Edwin Diaz heads to the Dodgers, but how do the Mets respond? Plus, Tom gives an update on the Rays new stadium while they quietly made an impactful deal.  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey there, Ed, and welcome back to the Book of
Joe podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
It's me Tom Verducci and of course Joe Madden and
I am kind at you from Orlando, Florida and the
Baseball Winter Meetings Joe wasn't a signing festival of free agents,
but we did have some moves and seemed like it
was the top of the market with some of the
bigger teams. And let me start out with one of
your former guys, Kyle Schwarber. Not a surprise that Kyle

(00:42):
re signs with the Philadelphia Phillies five years, one hundred
and fifty million dollars. There are some surprises to the
negotiations there. But give you your first thought when you
heard that Kyle was going back after he was in
play for a bunch of teams, and why not after
hitting fifty six home runs?

Speaker 4 (00:59):
As it should be. We've talked about this, I think previously.

Speaker 5 (01:04):
It's very belongs.

Speaker 4 (01:05):
I think you know, you have all the different things
about Cincinnati and these other groups, Pittsburgh, whatever, you know,
just knowing Schwerbs, it didn't make any sense. This is
a real loyal fellow. He loves being there. I think
he feels like there's unfinished business there. And of course
the dollars in years were probably right on the money.
I thought, you know, maybe four times forty, but then

(01:27):
it came down what five times thirty I mean, which
is still pretty good stuff, right, So anyway, I was
not surprised whatsoever. Again, I'm happy for him at Page.
It's the perfect landing spot for him. And honestly, I
think the Phillies need him more than he needs them.
So so I think it was Dave Dobroski doing Dave
Dombrowski kind of a thing. He understands the value with

(01:50):
what he does, not only on the field, but what
he does in the clubhouse, et cetera, and in the community.
You know, Philadelphia fans not easy. It's not an easy group.
And and he looks he looks good on them, and
they look good on him the same vice versa. Things
It just had made all the sense.

Speaker 5 (02:05):
In the world.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, I'm with you. I didn't think he was going
anywhere else.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
As you mentioned, his connection to the city, not just
the team, is really strong. There's nothing Kyle wants more.
And you know this Joe better than anybody than to win.
He's a guy who wants to win, pure and simple. Now,
this is part of being a pro. You have free agency,
you negotiate, you see what's out there. I never thought
he was leaving Philadelphia, so good on them. A couple
of things I want to run by you here. Number one,

(02:30):
A couple of teams interested in Kyle Schwerber, the Pittsburgh
Pirates and the Baltimore Orioles. Now, I was told Joe
that both teams were at the same level five years,
one hundred and fifty million dollars, and the Pirates actually
indicated they were willing to go even the one sixty five.
The Pittsburgh Pirates. I mean, it's groundbreaking that a Senate

(02:52):
can say, Listen, they knew they weren't going to get
the player.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Listen. As it turned out, it's probably true.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
But I love the fact that Pittsburgh made I believe
an honest effort. Listen to clock is ticking on their
time with Paul Skeins. You know, four years left. They'll
probably trade him with one where you left on the contract.
We'll see about all that, but they need to step
up and pick up the payroll and who better to
have if your team trying to learn how to win
than a glue guy like Kye Schwarber. So I like

(03:21):
that deal, and I like the fact that Baltimore as
well has some money to play with here and new
ownership there seems to indicate that, yeah, they're a player.

Speaker 5 (03:28):
Now. Well, I mean, I agree with what you're saying.

Speaker 4 (03:33):
I just think enough Tony Soprano or Don Corleone right here,
you just got to make him an offer you can't
refuse if you really you know you're at this Schmes.
I mean, listen, they got to make you have to
like overpay dramatically I think right there, in order to
really set some kind of an example. It's nice, you know,
it's almost like the amelioration of the fan base that Okay,
we tried and listen, I get it.

Speaker 5 (03:54):
It's not my money, that's it. I understand.

Speaker 4 (03:57):
However, if you really believe this guy's going to make
that kind of difference, you walk in the room and
see what it's going to take. I think, I mean
another twenty million. I don't know if you truly believe that,
you know, got this shorter, smaller window with schemes and
you think this is the kind of guy or one
of the the absolute pieces of this puzzle that's.

Speaker 5 (04:17):
Going to make you get over the top.

Speaker 4 (04:20):
Yeah, you might have to do something industry wide that
people don't like. You say, it's crazy, Why do you
do that? Well, because we needed to. We had to
in order to get to this next level that we're seeking.
So yeah, I saw that. I read what you're talking
about specifically, and my thought is, you know the fact
that the numbers were real equal with the final offer

(04:41):
with the Phillies. Dang, I just I just got to
go back and say, listen, guys, what are we doing here?
And is this Do we really mean what we're saying
right here? Do we really want to get into this
other league with the big boys? Then I think you
just got to make a ridiculous offer.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
I do well, I don't disagree with you there.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
It reminds me of when the Washington Nationals stepped up
and got Jason Worth. Remember that people were like, yeah,
are they doing They're not ready to win and they
did overpay.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
But that's what you have to do.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
When you're a team that does not have a track
record winning and you're trying to win, what's the attraction there,
it's going to be money at that point. So in theory,
I agree with your premise. I think, specifically in this
case with Kyleege Schwarber, I don't think what they put
on the table is going to convince him to go
to Pittsburgh on the belief that they're going to contend.
This guy lives for the postseason. To me and the

(05:30):
comfort level in Philly, I think with this guy. With
most guys, I agree with you. The money talks, and
we break down a lot of these players based on
where they grew up.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Where they played in college.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
You know, friends on the team, the agent's representatives, with
friendship with people in the front office. Let's not get ourselves.
It usually comes down to the best offer. I don't
think they could have bought Kyle Schwarber's loyalty if you
will away from Philly in this case.

Speaker 5 (05:56):
You know, and I'm not disagreeing with that, but I
had to try.

Speaker 4 (05:59):
I mean aggressing a big Going back in time, when
I first got to the Angels, everyone is after Garrett Cole,
and of course he is all that and he's that good.
But there was another guy out in the market that
was Zach Wheeler. Who I was really infatuated with. I
thought he was like, I can't even you know. He
was just a click below de Gram and he had

(06:19):
been heard at that time. There was a lot of
concerned about that. But I thought they threw the ball
in a very similar fashion where they just wound up easily.
The ball jumped out of their hand. It was like
was on a conveyor belt and it just exploded towards
home play. My point is that, Mike, my argument was
at that time that if we could sign Wheeler first,
that gives you a better chance of signing a Garrett

(06:40):
Cole because then all of a sudden, Garrett Cole believes
that the Angels are really trying, They're doing something differently here.
It could make a difference if we do this and
then it opens the other free agent's eyes. Hey, maybe
there is something here that is a different and that
is attractive to me. Now having been in part of
the process and going to Wheeler's house and Georgia, it

(07:03):
was obvious that pretty obvious that it wasn't gonna happen.
Billy up or have got that from the beginning, and
Billy was right. However, my point is the guy like
Schwerber if in fact, you want to build to this
point and you'd have to sell it to Kyle. Listen,
you're you're the first Domino man. Once we get you, now,
are really going to be able to attract these other
fellows that could put this thing together. Pittsburgh to me

(07:24):
one of the traditionally great franchises as a kid growing
up from Pennsylvania. They weren't my team, but they were
kind of like my second or third team. I love
their uniforms. Leverberta Clemente, a guy by name of Elroy, Face,
Bob Friend, Dick Roa did shortstop. There was an attract
on this there, man. And then you know, of course
in the late seventies Chuck Tanner put them together and

(07:45):
all of a sudden that we are family. There's a
lot to love to the Burg, the city itself, there's
a lot.

Speaker 5 (07:50):
It really is. So I'm just saying.

Speaker 4 (07:52):
I if I'm running the Pirates, I'm selling all this stuff, man,
I'm selling it all and whatever. Listen, Kyle, we want
you here as this centerpiece, and once we land you,
we really believe we're going to make a solid attempt
to sign these other pieces around you.

Speaker 5 (08:06):
To make this viable. Maybe not this year.

Speaker 4 (08:09):
We're gonna have to, you know, possibly make a you know,
some noise here and start building it. But you're the
guy that's here. You are, You're the cornerstone that's going
to build the whole thing. So again, I'm not saying
it would have ever happened. I don't even maybe that
was part of the conversation.

Speaker 5 (08:23):
I don't know that. But I like Pittsburgh.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
I mean, I just like the city itself and whatever,
and I see a lot going on. Schwarbss a Cincinnati guy, Ohio,
I'm not far removed. You know, There's there's some some connection.
So I saw that as being, you know, the blue
collar kind of interest. Probably appealed to his sensibilities. I
just don't know if they extrapolated far enough in the
future or really believe that he would be the cornerstone

(08:50):
that puts him over the top.

Speaker 5 (08:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
All good points.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
And I'm not sure to flip it that Kyle Schwarber
or anybody can sit there and trust that Pittsburgh management
is going to spend at the level it's going to
take to get this team to contend. That remains to
be seen. But you've got to get that first guy
to start convincing people.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
It's a really good point. Baltimore.

Speaker 3 (09:10):
Let's talk about what stepping up here means for Baltimore,
because to me, this means that Baltimore, to me, is
a real player for Peter Alonzo. You know, having this
money on the table for Schwarbert and listen, I thought
it was a fair contract. It kind of jars you
when you see a DH only getting that kind of money.
But Schwarber's impact bat, no question about it. Alonso also

(09:31):
an impact bat, a couple of years younger than kyleeg Schwarber,
and he does play defense. You can knock his defense
all you want, but he does play first base, which
is not a thick position in the major leagues as
far as talent, and he plays literally every game. So
I look at Baltimore, Joe, and I think that's a
real option for pet Alonso. And there was a report
from Mark Feinzan that the Mets do not want to

(09:53):
go beyond three years for Peter Alonzo. But I think
this contract offered a Schwarber and after the trade for
Taylor Ward from the Angels, to me, that makes them
a true pla for pin A Lonzo.

Speaker 5 (10:05):
Yes, that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (10:07):
I mean I'm just as you're explaining all of this,
I'm thinking about the just the ballpark itself, the fact
that they made it, they brought it back a little.

Speaker 5 (10:14):
Bit, and I see a lot. So Yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
In fact, I just to break in a minute, if
you look at the numbers, because you know that place
was the toughest part for any right handed power hitter.
Pete's thirty eight home runs last year would have translated
it into about forty five forty six in a season
in Baltimore. So yeah, it's if I'm a right handed hitter. Now,
it doesn't scare me like it did a couple of
years ago.

Speaker 4 (10:35):
No, not only that, I mean he could power the
ball at the right center too.

Speaker 5 (10:38):
I think it might.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
I think when you got you know, that kind of
an off field situation, I think it makes some right
handed hitters better. I'm talking about the left field, I
mean the right field side of the field, when that
becomes more attractive. It's a high wall but not very
deep to right field. And even that little porch above
the bullpens where the ball hits the top like kind
of the roof and jumps into the stands that's right up,

(10:59):
as Alley pun intended. I mean, it's like he he
I think he could thrive in this ballpark. Now, don't
is Mount Castle still there the first basement isn't he's
still part of that or not?

Speaker 2 (11:10):
He's a free agent now, okay at first base? Basically
open the.

Speaker 5 (11:13):
I got you?

Speaker 4 (11:14):
Then that makes all makes all the sense in the world.
It's a great fit. Now, where's Pete's mind at right now?
Because I mean, honestly.

Speaker 5 (11:22):
You look at the Orioles.

Speaker 4 (11:23):
I mean, just a couple of years ago, these guys
are in the thick of everything and then whoa, everything
blew up.

Speaker 5 (11:27):
So I think it'd be it easy convincing.

Speaker 4 (11:29):
To him that, listen, you're the guy that can get
us back to that point. We need what you do.
There's a lot of really good young players on that group.
They got to pitch better, obviously, but as a hitter,
as a power hitter as he is, that ballpark could
really played to his hitting sensibilities. And yeah, it can
highlight what he can do defensively. Listen, as long as

(11:51):
the guy works, and I would imagine that he does work,
and you know, I know that the metrics really don't
like him, and I saw make some bad throws, and
I saw make some good throws by the end of
the year. I think there's a work I think about
this fellow that he can improve even at this age
a bit just become a little bit more consistent in
some areas.

Speaker 5 (12:10):
So it makes all the sense in the world.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
And it is a good fit Kyle Schwarber.

Speaker 3 (12:14):
By the way, Joe, I have mentioned three words to
you as it relates to Kyle Schwarber Hall of Fame. Now,
career probably didn't start that way, but he's starting to
put up some serious numbers. I mean, when you're throwing
up home run totals in the forties and fifties, they
add up quickly.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
He's now three hundred.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
And forty home runs and he just signed a five
year deal. I mean, if he averages thirty one thirty
two a year the course of this contract, the dude's
get into five hundred. Now you can come back and
you can say, hey, what about Adam Dunn.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
You know, when Adam.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
Dunn was thirty two years old, he had already had
four hundred and six home runs.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
Looked like a lock for five hundred.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
He only played two more years or three more years
and wound up, you know, barely hitting four to sixty
two is what he wound up at. Never really got
close to five hundred on what we thought he was
going to do. To me, here's the difference, Joe. You
know how hard Kyle Schwerber works. It keeps himself in
great shape. He's supremely motivated, he loves the game. Those
things didn't apply to Adam Done at that stage in

(13:18):
his career. So I think this guy's got a real
good chance of hitting five hundred home runs and possibly
being a Hall of Famer. It brings me back to
when theo Epstein drafted Kyle Schwerber a catcher at Indiana,
and people weren't sure what his position was defensively, and
THEO said, what we're gonna do is I'm gonna stick
him in the left field and just let him put

(13:39):
up big poppy numbers.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Well, he's pretty much there.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
I'm not saying he's poppy, but you know he's not
going to hit for that kind of an average. But
from twenty eight to thirty two, in this prime here,
Schwarber has hit more home runs than David Ortiz did
in those years. I just love the fact that the
way his career is playing out here, he obviously has
gotten so much better against left handed pitch. Last year

(14:04):
he hit more left down left homers than anybody in
the history of the game.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
I think this guy is going to hold up well
over five years.

Speaker 5 (14:11):
You just said it right.

Speaker 4 (14:12):
There's the ascension, that is the that is why you
could even say what you just said. What he's done
with left tenant pitching. When we first had him with
the Cubbies, that I wanted to lead him off, we did.
I thought it was a good idea. You know, it
could be one nothing or if it's not on nothing,
I thought he had such a great handle on his
strikes on it could be just at least the runner
at first base. There's a lot I thought to like there.

(14:34):
I and even in the minor leagues and throughout my
managerial career, I didn't mind putting somebody like that in
the leadoff spot because again, it's it's it's instant, it's
instant numbers, and then of course he comes up more often.
So at that point it just was tough the lefty.
To make him your leadoff hitter was tough because there's
something you didn't want to play against all the lefties.

(14:55):
You wanted to give him a chance, which we did,
maybe not long enough.

Speaker 5 (14:58):
But although he.

Speaker 4 (14:59):
Just wasn't ready to hit lefties at that time, the
whole approach is different. The way he stays back right now,
he waits on the ball right now. I used to
really go out and get it a lot, which would
really permit that down in a way, pitch to be problematic,
The chase on the slatter you have to commit to
so and all those different things that did not permit
him to be a decent left on left hitter. It
wasn't ready. He wasn't ready for it. It just happens,

(15:21):
and then eventually grows into it, finds the right hitting coach,
and then he just you know, the light bulb goes on. Man, Oh,
that's what you meant. You know, I can remember that
from different points in my baseball meager baseball career, but
this this epiphany, the light goes on, That's what he meant.
Like you could hear the same words over and over again,
right and you understand exactly what your coach. Of course

(15:43):
I speak English, understand what you're saying. However, I cannot
make my body, feel or move in what in regards
to what you're talking about.

Speaker 5 (15:50):
I just can't.

Speaker 4 (15:51):
But one day, one moment, all poom, there it is,
I feel it, and your coach is standing right there
and says, that's it.

Speaker 5 (15:59):
That's right.

Speaker 4 (15:59):
So and all of a sudden you're combining knowledge and
feel together, and you, whomever is in charge of this moment,
which was Kevin Long, that's a real powerful moment. And
I think that's I'm sure that's exactly what happened. It
was just a constantly a redund the process of saying
a lot of the same things over and over again,

(16:19):
until finally it made sense to hit to the mind
and the body simultaneously. And now we hit lefties, and
now we know how to hit lefties, and that you're right,
that's what puts him in that conversation. I never even
thought about that, Tommy. I didn't even put that together.
Only you would. And I think what you're saying is legitimate.
He will take care of himself. He's actually looks more

(16:40):
fit now than he did as a youngster coming out
of Indiana. I know how, like you said, motivated he is.
And the city of Philadelphia will keep you motivated.

Speaker 5 (16:50):
Also, so.

Speaker 4 (16:52):
It's the right set of circumstances to see how far
it can go with all of.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
This, and real quick, Joe, we got to bring up
one of the greatest the bats and Cobs history. After
the rain delay in Game seven and twenty sixteen. I
can still see, I'm sure you can in my mind's eye.
Swebber gets that base hit and he's running down that
first baseline pumping his arm, and to me, it was
a different game. It was a different team after that
rain delay. The amount of energy, but to maintain the

(17:19):
energy once the ball is actually in play and we're
playing baseball again.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
It was Schwarber who jump started the whole thing with
that base hit.

Speaker 3 (17:27):
I just see the just the enthusiasm and the energy
on that hit.

Speaker 4 (17:31):
But Happle, we're playing in the Dodgers in the playoffs,
and he, being THEO, comes to me and says, sh
Shoreb's good Surob's going to go to Arizona and he's
gonna start working out. He's gonna start what he did.
I don't know if this is urban legend or not,
but apparently he would stand there and track a thousand
pitches a day off a machine or whatever, just to
see the ball, see the velocity, see it coming at him,

(17:53):
and of course then he would eventually hit. We didn't
know how well is lege was going to hold up.
We didn't know, but you know, the doctors assured us
that it would. You're not going to press him or
push them. And that's why after that big base hit
that we had to pinch run for him, which was
fortuitous because Albert Omoa made a great base running plan
on something that we worked on a lot in spring training,
that was tagging up on flyballs at the outfield, even

(18:13):
when you're at first base. It just was like it
just came together perfectly. But yeah, Schwerbs, he did. He
just had this. He has this different he does. He's
just different kind of a mentality. He's got that winning mentality.
He's no nonsense. Got a great sense of humor, but
he's no nonsense and he's gonna try to get the
best out of him and everybody else around him. He

(18:35):
just it's not a frivolous conversation. It's just he's just
he's got these real intense dark eyes and when he
looks at you, it kind of he's kind of a
guy looks right through you. And you've got to be
able to conversationally, got to be able to hold your
own because there's nothing you're gonna slide by this felt
not that you want to, but I'm just telling you
you ain't gonna slide anything by him. So all this

(18:56):
stuff is makes sense. And so for him to make
get that big hit and start that rally again makes
all the sense. Well, you go back to we kicked
the Angels butt opening series, we go to the Diamondbacks,
balls hit the left center and all of a sudden,
this collision occurs, and we're still able to survive and
do really well that year. But Swarb's just a different animal.

(19:18):
And the Phillies know.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
That he played in high school middle linebacker and he
was also on the spirit dance team in the school plays.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
How about that.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
That tells you all you need to know about a
guy who's comfortable with himself and will also knock you
in the next week if you get in his way.

Speaker 4 (19:36):
He would always do the little dance and left field
when he went out there for the fans at Wrigley.
He's an entertainer man, and you know what, it's a
what is it?

Speaker 5 (19:45):
Dance?

Speaker 4 (19:45):
Like nobody's watching a singing like nobody's listening. There's another
component then live like it's heaven on Earth. There's one
I'm missing, but that's what he is. He dances like
no one's watching. He sings like no one's listening. Oh,
lovel like you've never been hurt, and and live like
it's heaven on Earth.

Speaker 5 (20:01):
That's what he does.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Awesome stuff.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
Hey, there was another big signing this case, it was
a free agent leaving his team. Edwin Diaz will talk
about what it means for the Dodgers and the New
York Mets. We'll do that right after this on the
Book of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe.

(20:30):
Edwin Diaz is a Dodger. Joe, how about have you
Dave Roberts Right now, you've spent ever since ken Lee
Jansen the left, You've been running people through that ninth
inning like on a weekly basis, right, especially in the postseason.
You look at players who have closed games for Dave Roberts.
It's all over the map, including two starting pitchers ending
the last two World Series. Well, now, as good as

(20:51):
the Dodgers are, they have to me the guy who's
been over the last four or five years. The best
closer in baseball, Edwin Diaz three year contract sixty was
it sixty nine million dollars? A lot of people were surprised.
I really wasn't, Joe, But this is what the Dodgers do.
They had almost eighty million dollars coming off the payroll,
so it's not like they're blowing the payroll to another

(21:13):
huge level here. But boy, this is goin to hurt
the New York Mets. Give me your first reaction when
you first heard about Diaz to the Dodgers.

Speaker 5 (21:20):
Not surprised, you know.

Speaker 4 (21:21):
And again I read the New York papers constantly, and
you know, I think you know how much did the
Mets really cherished having him back there? The fact that
he is as good as you described, Plus he does
that there. You saw it Hellsley right when he came in,
and it did not work out like you thought it
would when he had been in Sing Louis. So it's
not for everybody. It's not for the weak of heart.

(21:42):
The only injury he's had is when he got injured
in that celebration right. Otherwise he's been pretty healthy during
this time too, I believe. And God, the fastball is
oppressive and so is the breaking ball. And on top
of that, I would bet that the Dodgers actually there's
something about what they've been recognizing regarding what they're seeing
that that they feel like they could help him become

(22:02):
even better. There's no that I'm sure that's part of it.
It's just a little bit surprising, not surprising that the
Dodgers did that at all, not even a little bit
surprising that the you know, the Mets, and all you
read about is like since Cohen took over that they're
competing with the Dodgers, they want to be the Dodgers
on East Coast, all this other stuff, and then this happens.

(22:24):
This not that there's not a whole lot of happiness
going around that Ivory Tower at City Field right now,
I don't think so. I don't know that this they
saw this one coming. And I guess the the amount
of money between the two places wasn't horribly different, right,
So it had to be something about internally about the
is somebody sold him with within a Dodge organization, or

(22:46):
there was something about the Mets side he wasn't quite
comfortable with that you would never hear about because I
don't think he's the kind of guy that's going to
open up about that. But that's that's the part that
I thought was interesting. Whereas the money was kind of
similar or very similar, almost exactly the same, that he
would leave that place to go there, other than the
fact that he might feel that they could win there

(23:08):
more than with the Mets, and again something that he
internally sees. That's the part of this that I'd like
to know more about.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Yeah, first of all, in the money, you're right, they
were both very close, and again it's it's not a
crazy deal when you think about, well, best closer in baseball.
I get it, he's in his early thirties, but keeping
that three years, that's a big win for the Dodgers.
And the fact that with a little bit of deferred money,
I mean it's not Otani deferred money, but there is
some deferred money that his average annual value is less

(23:39):
than what the qualifying offer was. So it's not an
outrageous deal at all for the Dodgers. And I said,
as I said, you know, with the money coming off
the payroll, listen, money's great because they looks like they
made a mistake on Tanner Scott last year seventy two
million dollars and you know, he got hit and at
the end of the year was hurt. We'll see if

(23:59):
they can fix him, but they didn't in the course
of last year.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
But it doesn't matter. You can live with that when.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
You have the money to go out there and get
Edwin Diaz. As far as the Mets here, are going
to give them a pass Joe until we hear more,
because from what I was told from a source that
this was a case where the Dodgers are just so
darned attractive right now that it wasn't a matter that
you know, he wasn't going to take the money from

(24:26):
the Mets. But if you're in your thirties like Edwin
Diaz and you haven't won a World Series, how do
you not sign with the Dodgers unless you're just in
love with the incumbent team.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
And I'm not saying he was or wasn't.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
I'm just saying right now, to me, the Dodgers are
what the Yankees were in the late nineties early two thousands.
I remember Mike Musina going to the Yankees, who were
loaded with starting pitching, and he had the Orioles wanting
to keep him. He had Boston in it, and he
had the Mets in it all kind of in the
same ballpark. But hop aboard the Yankees train if you
want to win the World Championship. As it turned out,

(25:00):
he didn't at that era with the Yankees. He got
on at the wrong time. But right now, the Dodgers
are the it team. And from my source telling me
this is what attracted Edwin Diaz that yeah, okay, the
Mets are spending right close to what the Dodgers spend,
but last time they won the World Series was eighty six.
You're coming off a really disappointing season in which the

(25:23):
team fell apart in the second half. There were some
chemistry and clubhouse issues there.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
I think we all know that.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
The Mets don't want to say that publicly, and again
I'm not saying Diaz didn't like it there. But right now,
the Dodgers and the way they treat their players as well,
word is out, man, that's the place to play.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
That's tough for the.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
Mets or anybody to compete with if they want to
sign a free agent.

Speaker 4 (25:44):
No, you're right correct all of that. You know, I
know how Andrew operates, and you know, un listen when
you have that kind of those kind of resources. It's
easy to replicate the easier to replicate that on an
annual basis. But it just speaks down to the Cohen
era there when he comes in and all the themations
that were made.

Speaker 5 (26:06):
Uh again, this is a situation. I don't I don't.

Speaker 4 (26:08):
I don't know it's sterns well at all, but I
mean I follow a lot of this. Is this another
situation we're just talking about with Schwerbur. I mean, the
Phillies wouldn't let Shuerber go. There's not gonna leave. We're
gonna keep him here somehow. You just described these as
the best closer in the game. Right now, the Mets
are trying to win. Uh, you know on that level
with the Dodgers, how do you let him get away?
I I don't know, Private Jetim, I don't know what

(26:31):
it would take. But again, this is one of those
situations that you may have to overpay because where's this uh,
where's this guy gonna come from? I don't know who
they have in mind to fill that role right now,
because once he's gone, it's like you know when you
when you fire somebody in essence or let somebody go
you have to know in advance, who are we going
to replace him with that's equally as good, And we're

(26:53):
trying to do this. We're not trying to compete. We're
trying to win this whole thing, not just the n
L or the or division. This is about what played
in the last game of the year and winning it.
So these this is what I think about when I
see situations like this. Yes, the Dodgers are very absolutely,
but the goal was to make the Mets as attractive
or more here. So that's what I'm saying. There's something

(27:13):
going on there beyond the money. I'm just be curious,
that's all because he is that good. You just talked
about it, you stated it. It's true, So why do
you permit that to happen? In a sense, because you've
had him. You had him, he was he was yours,
you knew, you know all this quirks, you knew everything
about him, knew how he reacted to the situations.

Speaker 5 (27:33):
You knew, And maybe that's what they didn't like.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
I don't know, maybe there's something that they're actually kind
of pleased with that he's gone.

Speaker 5 (27:38):
We'll see.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
Well, I mean, obviously they did sign Devin Williams, and
at the time it seemed like, well that was a
hedge against Diaz possibly leaving or best case scenario, they
have both of them and they have a lockdown eighth
and ninth inning situation. But no question now Devin Williams
is their closer. I happened to think his year last
year was better than a lot of people think. I
mean they look at the era at yeah, it's not good.

(28:02):
His worst year was it four to seven, And but
if you look at the underlying metrics, the swring and
miss especially, it was all there for Devin Williams. Listen,
he's still a good reliever. It's not like that's a
terrible fallback option that they're lost now. But the fact
is there's still going to have to fortify this bullpen.
You know, it's gonna take a lot more than Devin

(28:23):
Williams now to recover from the loss of Edwin Diaz.

Speaker 4 (28:26):
You're right, I mean, and then Stern's had him with Milwaukee, correct,
I mean, that's part of the that's part of the
connection there. And again this is this is a situation
I think knowing somebody and Stearns now knows he knew
Williams and now he knows DEAs and maybe that was
part of the decision. We're not going to go over
this threshold because we feel as though we got this
guy that can be as good, if not better in

(28:48):
their mind to think about Williams that you're right. I mean,
I saw that stuff last year. I was just and
when a relief pitch, you have to understand that you
mentioned it. What are two or three even three bad
outings during the course of his season could really balloon
your numbers and it could make a look horrible, and
especially if it happens early, because it is something to your.

Speaker 5 (29:06):
Psyche a little bit too.

Speaker 4 (29:08):
So they have a lot of faith there obviously, and
maybe Stearns believes that with willimsbying the only guy there
that might be better for him in regards to how
he approaches the day. There's no confusion. He knows he's
got the ninth. Maybe that's been he's assured of all that.
There's a lot of this conversation that may have occurred
before they went the extra mile with the money too,

(29:28):
So you're right, they probably feel really good about that.
The thing, I'm such a face reader, I'm such a
gut guy. The thing I didn't like when I saw
Williams pitch last year. Was a lot of times this
frustration on the mound, where this concession almost on the mound,
and his look and I and I look at that

(29:48):
stuff like that.

Speaker 5 (29:49):
I thought his armstroke was lower. I thought his arm
angle was lower.

Speaker 4 (29:52):
You're telling me the swing and misses the same, you know,
because that pitch is ridiculously good. But my concern was
the arm kept getting lower, which makes the ball come
out flatter, which then, even if it's good, permission to
keep the bat on that plane a little bit longer.
These are the things I was seeing last year. So
that was my concern about Williams. Is more than even
the numbers indicated. I thought there was a reason the

(30:12):
numbers weren't good, and part of it could have been makeup.

Speaker 5 (30:15):
Part of it could have been his arms strokes.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
Something had gotten off mechanically that they were unable to fix.
Mebe his arm was bothering me, couldn't get it up
as high, those kind of things. That's what I think
about when I when I see a situation like that.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
Well, I can tell you you're dead right, Joe Baden,
because I talked with Devon about this, and listen, we
talked about this with the Mets trading for Cedric Mullens
and Ryan Helsley, both of whom left their team for
the first time, and that was mid season, and that
is a tough adjustment. I'm telling you, folks, it's a
big deal. The one that stands out for me is
Jonathan Scope getting traded for the first time and fell

(30:50):
flat on his face. I think it was in Milwaukee.
It's a shock to the system for a lot of
these guys. And it was interesting when I spoke with Devan,
he talked about after opening Day with the Yankees, he
realized he didn't know how to get home. So it's
just a way of saying that he was a little
bit lost, you know, after being in Milwaukee system his
whole career. He's traded to New York, dropped into New

(31:12):
York after spring training and as he said, there's millions
and millions of people there, I don't might know my
way around. He did have that look on his face.
There's no question about it. There is an adjustment and
a period in life. And you could say, well, it
should happen overnight. What's the big deal for some guys?
If they've been in one place for a long time,
it's all they know, it's all the people they know.
It is a shock to the system, and New York

(31:33):
is very different, There's no question, especially when you don't
produce and all of a sudden you've got criticism on
your back as well.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
So I think that explains a little bit of what.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Happened earlier in the season to Devin Williams, and you're right,
and we've talked about this each year in the last
four or five years, is arm angle has gotten a
little bit lower. He actually said one of the teams
he was talking to in the course of his free
agency mentioned that and said what was interesting was his
arm angle was lower, but his release point was actually

(32:04):
and Devin said, a light bulb went off and he said,
now I know what I need to do to fix that.
I thought that was fascinating. And it wasn't the Mets
who told him this. One of the other teams interested
in Devin Williams noticed something about the way he was
throwing a baseball, and all of a sudden he clicked
to Devin Williams like, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Fascinating stuff.

Speaker 4 (32:24):
Yeah, I mean, you got to make sure you get
the guy before you tell him everything, especially if he's
in your division.

Speaker 3 (32:31):
We can fix you. I get that under two again.

Speaker 5 (32:34):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (32:35):
I know a lot of gyms that would really be
upset right now under those circumstances.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Giving ammunition to the end.

Speaker 4 (32:41):
Oh my god, it's like proprietary information.

Speaker 5 (32:44):
My god.

Speaker 4 (32:44):
They jump in their bunkers at that point.

Speaker 5 (32:47):
Listen.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
I believe that kind of stuff as a as a
hitting instructor for years. You know, you when you're working
the minor leagues, you go from rookie ball all the
way up to the big leagues. You see hitters on
every level and every level in between. And the thing
that always might pretation was when you work with a
rookie ball guy or a low a ball hitter, it's

(33:09):
obvious what they're doing wrong. It's very obvious because they
do so many things wrong. Things might be off or this,
whether it's their feet, whether you're jumping at it, the
way they're dropping their hands early, their heads playing.

Speaker 5 (33:20):
Whatever, obvious.

Speaker 4 (33:21):
But as guys become more efficient proficient, it's harder to
see the flaws because they're really good at a lot
of the way their body moves and all of a
sudden there's a little thing and that's where this high
speed stuff filming wise and all the tech involved. That's
very helpful in narrowing down, well, what is off with
this fellaw right now? And that's why it's also wonderful

(33:42):
to have a benchmark at base when you first get
somebody to look at and have that on video whatever,
have about all the information so that when it does
go sideways, you can revert back.

Speaker 5 (33:52):
So yeah, this that all makes sense to me.

Speaker 4 (33:55):
The more efficient or more accomplished you become, you're normally
you move well what you do as well, so for
the naked eyed is see that stuff becomes more difficult.
I used to really drive me nuts with hitters coming
up through the Angel system and then eventually it wasn't
a major league hitting coach, but I'm still a major
league as a manager as a hitting coach. As I

(34:16):
watched everything, So that's that's kind of probably what happened there,
fell in between the cracks, because it's just I mean,
I'm so I'm so aware of that because like I
remember back with the Rays, I can't remember who it
was that was struggling, and the first thing I said,
it looks to me is though the arm is dropping
a bit. Eric Neander, Eric, could you check on that
for me, because that, to me, that's that's really that's

(34:39):
the kind of a mechanical adjustment you don't mind making
or talking about, because that's something that's not really going
to get in the guy's head necessarily when you're trying
to not necessarily make an adjustment getting back to he
had been. It's something his body used to do, so
these are That's that's where I think this tech is
really good. Moments like that, to get that snapshot when

(35:00):
the guy's really good. I remember talking to Jimmy Edmonds.
I'm a Jimmy up in Edmonton and he's going off.
He's just like tearing it up. And as any coach,
I would walk in and I would watch guys and
if they're going well. I eventually went up to him
and say, listen, brother, I'm not saying anything to you
this whole time I'm here because I can only serve
to confuse you.

Speaker 5 (35:19):
I'm just here to observe.

Speaker 4 (35:20):
And I wrote down my notes and I had my notes,
and sure enough, next time they came in, he wasn't
doing as well. And I had my notes to talk
to him about exactly what I observed the last time,
but that this is all part of it, man. So
if Williams really understood what they were saying truly and
could incorporate that into his armstroke again, you might see

(35:43):
that devastating stuff you saw at in Milwaukee, because it.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Was well along those lines. And this dovetails with the
New York Mets. They're sort of on the clock at
this point in the post. He's in the off season, right.
I mean, it's you lose Diaz, you traded Nemo for
Marcus Simeon, and you may be holding the line and
losing Pete Alonzo. So they are a team to watch,
no question about it, especially as the Dodgers and Phillies
continue to load.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Up, because that's your competition if you're the Mets.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
But the Simeon trade was really interesting, And I know
we talked about this, Joe, but you know, in talking
to David Stearns about this, he just felt that the
minor league system was loaded with outfielders like backed up
behind Nimo, who had five years left on his contract,
and that's not going to be a pretty contract at
the end of it.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
I think we all know that, so now is the
time to move.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
But I asked him about Simeon, and this gets back
to what people now see with technology and the idea
that you're going to fix somebody. Is Simeon's playing second
base now what thirty five, thirty six, And we talked
about this. You've got to go all the way back
to ben Zoebers a decade ago to find a second
basement at that age who was even average offensively. And

(36:49):
the trend for Marcus Simeon right now not good as
you would expect.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Middle infielders go quickly in their mid thirties is a.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
Fact of baseball life, especially those who played as much
as Marcus Simeon. But Stearns told me that in looking
at the hitting and swing metrics specifically not approach, but
swing metrics for Simeon, they saw something there that they
think they can fix and get them back to the
all star level.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
So there you go.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
Yeah, that's how it works. I mean, everybody, we always feel.

Speaker 5 (37:21):
Like we have the answer.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
We always do this, and I don't know how many
times I said that in meetings. Well, when he comes
in our locker room, we're going to make him well,
I always had a lot of faith in the clubhouse
culture of the teams that I had, and I thought
a combination of the acceptance or the guidance of the
players along with the coaching staff and the information available
because I knew what the information available was, and I've

(37:45):
always had a lot of confidence in myself my observation
skills in regards to breaking baseball movement down. I don't
care what the position was. It was a picture position player,
So always they would ask me. I would take videos
and I would break them down and we'd look at
him and I would try to give my input too.
But I think in general, everybody feels I think it
fixed somebody. Everybody does. We always feel as though we're

(38:08):
a little bit smarter, and then the guy gets there,
and sometimes it may occur and sometimes it may not.
I just it's just a flip of the coin. But
I don't know if that's their true reasoning for doing that,
because the contracts were pretty heavy, and they were pretty
late in their careers overall, and them a little bit
earlier Sime and he really came on later.

Speaker 5 (38:28):
And who knows, I.

Speaker 4 (38:29):
Mean, how we liken him at second base because he
still move at second base or not.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
Yeah, really, well, defensive metrics at least, and just the
eyeball test is defensively yeah, it's really the big upside
here for the Mets getting him.

Speaker 4 (38:43):
I thought, maybe, you know, with if Alonso goes, do
they like somebody else at second base and talk about
moving him in the first base kind of a thing
and just slit him hit and play first base. Is
that's something in the back of their minds. Also, I
don't know, but I've always liked Simey and I I
really you know, I thought in the first when he
was at shortstop, but Oakland, I thought his defense was overplayed.

(39:04):
When he went to Texas in the beginning, I really
thought his offense made his defense look better. And I
haven't seen him enough in the more recently.

Speaker 5 (39:14):
And I have to look at it. But the guy
can hit.

Speaker 3 (39:17):
Man.

Speaker 4 (39:17):
When I saw him, this guy can hit the ball,
jumped really jumped, and when he got hot, he got
like uber hot. This guy was like on a different
planet when he gets hot. So I don't know, And maybe,
you know, give him some days off. I mean, that's
another thing. When the guy gets that age, maybe plan
in more days off to keep Fresher talked to him
about maybe swinging less regards to his work and how

(39:40):
many swings he takes on a daily basis, all those
things would be a factor.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
I think, Yeah, there's other signings, of course, and maybe
not as large as this, but there's one I want
to talk about, smaller market team under the radar signing
who they seem to hit on these signings all the time.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
We'll talk about that and get Joe's.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
A thought of the day right after this break on
the Book of Joe.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
I was looking at the Rays signing Stephen Metz Joe,
and they have a history of just you know, acquiring people,
sometimes in trades, but even lower level free agent deals,
and the guy's stuff just plays up. Stephen Mattz, he's
been around a while. It's a very interesting career to me.
He actually pitched really well for the Red Sox after
he was traded from Saint Louis last year down the

(40:38):
stretch and pitched some high leverage spots for Alex Korra
and did well. And it's sort of been his career Joe,
where Stephen Metz has at times looked really good but
you look at the entirety of his career and you
remember the hullabaloo when he signed or first came up
with the Mets and was so good, so early.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
But his adjusted e E ra Plus.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
Is in ninety eight, which means he's been a little
bit below average in the course of his career. But
get this, he's signed a two year deal for fifteen
million dollars. That's going to bring his career earnings to
seventy three million dollars. Steven Mattz, I know he's left handed,
and I know he has started and he's lasted long

(41:23):
enough to cruise service time like this. But that's the
name of the game, is it lasts long enough, and
they'll keep throwing contracts at you. I remember years ago
Rick Honeycutt, left handed reliever at the time, he said,
you know what, I wanted to retire, but they kept
offering me contracts.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
He kept coming back on one year deals.

Speaker 5 (41:43):
It's funny.

Speaker 4 (41:44):
Well, I was just thinking that there's got to be
a lot of old pros out there looking at Mats's accomplishments,
and you know, they start playing the math game. Had
they been born at a different time. I mean, it's
just amazing. Like even a Dylan ceized the amount of
money this guy's getting. I know he's got a great arm,
I get it, but overall numbers are not you know,
Hall of Famous esque, but the salary certainly is. So Yeah,

(42:07):
that's be regardless. I like, I've always liked Matt's I
did when he was coming up. I thought he saw
like Jerry Kusman, John Matt Lack, you know, all the
mets of Yesteryear. I really liked him a lot. I
like the way the ball came out of his hand.
I liked his breaking ball. I didn't know him a
whole lot. If he broke good in a game, man,
heads up, you're you're not getting nothing. So I don't
know if there was some kind of issues with what

(42:28):
he was sneaking and how he went about, you know,
the mental game. But nevertheless, I really liked his stuff.
And yeah, it makes for the race perspective. It makes
a lot of sense. He's there, he is there, He's
their kind of guy. He's there, Huckleberry man. This is
the kind of guy they're looking for, and with good health.
And I'm sure they did their due diligence on that.

(42:50):
I think it's a good sign.

Speaker 5 (42:51):
I like this guy.

Speaker 4 (42:52):
I don't know what they have in mind right there,
but as if you're going to fill in the rest
of your pitching staff with some veteran guys that may
still have some upside, I would put in probably at
the top of a list.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Yeah, I agree, especially because he's a good swing guy.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
You know, he's starting pitching depth, he's you know, I
don't think they have especially long guys like they used to,
but he's a multiple inning relief guy.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
He can do a lot of different things. So yeah,
good addition.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
And by the way, the Rays tell everybody that the
repairs of the TRUP are on schedule, that they will
be back home next year at the Trap.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
After let's face it really difficult year.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
Kudos for that team for just grinding through it, But
for me, Joe, the schedule caught up to the Rays
in twenty twenty five, eight home games in July, only
eight in August. The ballpark played really small. The Rays
are not built that way to win those kind of games.
They pitch well in that ballpark. I always thought it
was especially dark at the trop and I thought it'd

(43:51):
helped pitching.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
So they'll be count on it.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
Man, they'll have a bounce back season after what seventy
seven wins in twenty five. Getting home is you'll see
the truer version of the Rays, I believe.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
I drive by there often on my way to Saint
Pete Country Club and the roof's up, and what you
see are these dudes up there with like little orange
tops on. They look like ants on the top. You
realize how massive the top of that building is when
you see a human up there. I don't know if
they're sewing it together, whatever they're doing to put that.
I think it's a it was tough on I think
back in the past, but it's looking you know, it's

(44:26):
real clean. It's looking good. No reasona believe they're not
going to be on time. I don't know what the
field looks like below, what's going on inside the building,
but from the top, it's kind of fascinating to watch.
Every time you see somebody up there doing some kind
of work in an orange top and they got to
be tethered to the roof because it is.

Speaker 5 (44:43):
That's got to be scary. Man.

Speaker 4 (44:44):
You cannot pay me enough money to do something like that,
you know, So kudos to those guys. But from what
I'm seeing naked eye, looks like it's going to be
just fine.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
All right.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
We spent a lot of time talking about Edwin Diaz.
Now it's handing the ball to our closer, Joe Madden.
What do you got for us this week? Got the
Book of Joe?

Speaker 5 (45:00):
You know, thought about it.

Speaker 4 (45:01):
And again it's like this time of the year where
it's like going on and you know, conversationally and you
know what's going on over there at the winter meetings,
things like that. And again with the advent of you know,
the analytics, we've talked about that. We've mentioned it like
trying to fix somebody's mechanics. A lot of it relies
on tech et cetera. So I know recently you and
I had spoken about I told you about this lady Laurahong.

Speaker 5 (45:24):
That I have been in touch with.

Speaker 4 (45:25):
She wrote the book you already know, and it's pretty
much about the intuitive process, gut feeling, intuition, et cetera.

Speaker 5 (45:33):
So I just if you don't mind.

Speaker 4 (45:35):
I'm just gonna read like a paragraph and it was
from the title of the paragraph was who who is
gut feel?

Speaker 5 (45:44):
I thought that was kind of cool and just.

Speaker 4 (45:46):
Briefly, if gut feel is the outcome and intuition is
the process, then there must be an individual in whom
this is taking place. Gut feel is you. As a professor,
This is from her. She's a professor at Northeastern University
and Boston. As a professor, I often say to my students,
the most beautiful story you ever tell should be the

(46:07):
story of who you are and the collection of all
you love. Gut feel is informed by the entirety of
your lived experience, your knowledge, observations, background, memories, truths, relationships, feelings,
emotional intelligence, disappointments, losses, and trauma. Gut feel is you
because it stems from your individual interpretation of the external

(46:30):
data that you are receiving and acquiring, and is the
culmination of everything that takes place during your intuiting process.
The gut feel breakthrough as you have will be distinct
and personal, specific to just you. They cannot be explained,
they cannot be transferred. God, I believe all that when

(46:53):
I read that the stuff that we talk about and
to me, when you are able to overlay that over
data information, then you really got an exciting process that
can really benefit whether it's you personally or you as
a group, as we're talking baseball as an organization. She

(47:13):
really does a wonderful job of describing and defining what
all of this is. She puts it in some really plain,
wonderful language. And I'm saying all this because you know,
we've gotten so far off the path where people like
nobody really wants to give credit to this method of

(47:35):
decision making. It only has to go. Credit always seems
to want to go just to numbers, math, data, and
and and tech those.

Speaker 5 (47:44):
Kinds of things.

Speaker 4 (47:44):
And you know, AI is going to really personify that
even more so. I've spoken with this woman. We're going
to try to get her on the show at some point.
I love my conversations with her, and what I'll do
as a reader book on my iPad and I'll highlight
some things and then I'll write my interpretation and send
it to her and she gets right back to me.

(48:05):
I just think that we can't get away from this,
and we're on the verge of getting away from this
kind of thinking or interpretation of who we are because
we're just handing over everything to math and information and
machines and computers whatever however you want to describe it
and I don't think that's right, and I'm really concerned

(48:27):
about that. So if you really want to check into
a really good book that makes a lot of sense
and is really well written and research larahuang.

Speaker 5 (48:36):
H u a n G, you already know.

Speaker 4 (48:39):
And so I thought it might be a good day
to throw that out there based on the Winter meetings
and how decisions are being made.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
Absolutely, and thanks for those words, Joe, and I think
your own words are important here too, and mentioning. I
think you use the term overlay. You can use the
word blended as well. It should not be a case
of either or where we are and unfortunately, we are
in the process of doing this, placing emotional intelligence with

(49:07):
artificial intelligence, and we're doing that blindly. We're raising now
generation of young students who are just automatically and the
word is automatically, going to check GPT to outsource their
own critical thinking, give me the answer, plug it in.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
I don't have to do the work.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
It's super important to realize that, yeah, technology is great.
No one's talking about shunning it and being a luddite here.
It's about blending the emotional intelligence with the breakthroughs that
we've had with technology, and for some reason, people just
can't hold both concepts in their head for the most part.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
And we're going a.

Speaker 3 (49:49):
Little too fast, too far in on the artificial intelligence
side for me anyway, especially when it comes to our young.

Speaker 4 (49:58):
People expediency making things easier. Okay, where do I like
that in my life? I do like you the internet
to research things.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
I don't have to look at it another DMV.

Speaker 5 (50:10):
Yeah, right there you go. That'd be awesome. But I
don't have to, Like I don't have to go to
the shelf.

Speaker 4 (50:15):
And get an Encyclopedia Britannic. It'll look something up right,
it's right here. We're talking through it right now. And
that's a wonderful thing. But even like back in the
day libraries you have to go through those little cards
and research in the library, find the book, et cetera.

Speaker 5 (50:29):
You have to work to get your information. Is that
good or bad?

Speaker 4 (50:32):
I don't know, but I know from my own personal
journey and when Uncle Chuck turned me onto reading Centennial
in the mid seventies, that opened my mind, and that
really made me a more creative person, a more curious person.
And because I sought my own answers, you know, you
seek your own answers. And when you do that, it
doesn't it apply you to the conclusions. I mean, all

(50:55):
this stuff here, you're not creatively trying to find an answer.
You're easily looking for an answer. Let somebody else tell
me what I want to think. And that's you know,
tell me what you think. Now, what you've heard. That's
a big part of my existence. And so now it's
about I'm gonna tell you what you think and this
is this is what you've heard. That's scary. And I
don't understand why that's attractive whatsoever. It's a lazy form

(51:18):
of being a human being. So I'm I am concerned.
I'm concerned. I you know, I watch you listen. I
read all this stuff all the time, and.

Speaker 5 (51:27):
There's it's it's attached.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
Yes, there's a lot of benefits that there's no question,
but it's all of it's attached to power and money,
and that's always a scary thing. It's not an altruistic thing.
I don't think it was just all about altruism.

Speaker 5 (51:38):
You give it a.

Speaker 4 (51:39):
Different grade, but it's more about power and greed and
money absolutely too.

Speaker 5 (51:44):
So that's that's my concern.

Speaker 4 (51:46):
And to think that people are just going to blindly
adopt it without challenging the concepts or what's really going
to happen.

Speaker 5 (51:54):
That is a very naive approach.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Yeah, it's scary to allow the machine to be doing
learning because when you're using automation to quote unquote learn things,
actually just borrowing that intelligence. As you mentioned, Joe, when
you have to do the work yourself, you're actually absorbing
it and learning it. It's part of who you are,
as you referred to, so really important stuff. Appreciate all
those words, Joe, Thank you brother.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
Great stuff. We'll see you next time on the Book
of Joe.

Speaker 4 (52:20):
All right, Tommy, see you later, buddy.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
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