The Book of Joe: Sign Stealing, Pennant Races, and Davey Johnson Memories

Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci begin with the blatant sign stealing happening in baseball.  Joe explains what teams can do about it and what reactions he's had about dealing with it.  Has the game become too polite? Tom points out how it's affecting the game and the lack of concern from teams stealing calls.  We turn to the Mets collapse and what issues they've faced down the stretch.  Tom also wonders what issues could haunt the Dodgers through September and the postseason. Plus, we note the passing of longtime player/manager Davey Johnson.  Joe recalls some of his memorable moments interacting with Johnson.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Daron, welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcasts
with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe,
we need to talk about a trend I see in

(00:24):
around Major League Baseball and I can't believe this is
happening here, the stealing of signs off the bases without repercussions.
To me, that the culture of stealing signs has totally changed.
I mean, you remember, and it wasn't even that long
ago where if you were relaying signs off the basis,
somebody on your team was going to wear it on
the hip or maybe worse. And now we saw this

(00:47):
in the Yankees Blue Jays series. We saw it earlier
with the Yankees and the Seattle Mariners, where it just
seems to be a case of now, if a team
is doing that and blatantly by the way, the way
the Yankees are doing another basis, the.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Team in this case, Toronto says, that's on us. We
have to be better.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Give you your take real quick here to begin on
how you see this culture changing in terms of stealing
signs from basis.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, we've stripped away a lot of the aggress in
this in our game, just through rules and regulations and
right down to bat flips and celebrations where it's an
accepted part of the baseball culture. Now for us, you're
right back in the day man, if you thought somebody
was stealing signs, which I agree with what they're saying
that we have to do a better job of concealing
our signs.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
Absolutely we do. However, part of it.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Is if I'm going to make you think about a
little bit, you're probably going to not try to do that.
So there's two ways of looking at I still think
there should be some retaliation in some regard. I'm not
saying hit anybody in the head. That's not my point,
but you have to be able. You have to make
the other side think twice and not make it so
easy on them.

Speaker 4 (01:49):
To do it. However, I do agree with that.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
I used to get upset because we're doing a horrible
job of concealing our signs, and that really comes down
to a lot of pictures I've run around second base
are very basic.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
They don't like to have.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
To think to the point where the catcher does different
multiple signs in order to make it more difficult, and
some guys will just refer to the first sign, second sign,
whatever sign only because it's easier for them to do that,
and then of course it becomes easier to steal signs. Also, location,
if you could just transmit location to the hitter, that

(02:22):
in and of itself is an advantage, just because right
handed pitcher throwing to a right handed hitter. If I
know the ball is going to be away, at least
I can look away, and that's definitely an advantage, or
look in looking away. It could be fastball or breaking ball, slider.
If it's the locations in it could be fastball. It
could be a change the way the game is evolved.
But at least I know which side of the play

(02:42):
to mentally protect. So I agree you need to do
a better job. I also believe that we're just becoming
way too polite in the game. I'm not into politeness,
you know. I'm not of that ilk that people think
you should shake hands after a game like the Stanley Cup.
Maybe after the seventh game of the World Series, possibly,

(03:03):
but I'm I'm just not built that way, and I
can't get over it. I can't permit myself to view
the world that way that it's so easy to lose
and I have to immediately demonstratively concede to my opponent.
So batflips all this other crap, not being retaliatory anymore, fraternization,
all that stuff. I saw Lindor and I think it

(03:24):
was Marte at second base the other day after a
close call. They're just waiting, They're waiting for the returns,
and they're just standing there like two buddies that grew
up in the same high school. It's gotten to the
point where that part of it does bother me a
little bit. Maybe that's old school in me, but I
still believe in it.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, listen, nobody wants to see guys, as you mentioned,
you know, throwing the ball up and in throwing the
ball now ninety five plus miles an hour being routine.
I never liked the idea that because you did something
that was against the unwritten rules, you're gonna be in
a harms way, literally a harms a way. Obviously there's
a way to do it. We saw Justin Verlander hit

(04:02):
Mason Wynn the other day exactly the way you're supposed
to do it, hit.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Him right in the wallet.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
But that being said, we need to talk about, you know,
how it's being done, because the PitchCom device has been
great for the game, and it really if you remember
before it, there was so much Shenanigan's going on from
the bases in terms of picking up signs, and the
PitchCom device, the wireless communication between the catcher and the pitcher.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Has really cut down on that.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
But what's happening now is the Yankees are getting signed
from the bases. By the way, in this case it
was Max Scherzer. Earlier it was Andre's Munoz the Mariners closer.
You know, Scherzer is coming to the set position with
his hands away from his body and high so that
Cody Bellinger on first base can actually see his grip
into his glove. He begins to raise his arms to

(04:44):
Aaron Judge at second base, and now he raises his
arms to Ben Rice in the batter's box. So Ben
Rice now knows whether it's a fastball or it's an
off speed pitch. And he actually beat the Blue Jays
in a key game in the Al East by getting
tipped off when the off speed pitch was coming. And
Ben Rice absolutely crushes fastballs.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
He doesn't hit much off anything.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
Else.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
But he absolutely crushes fastballs. And he wound up getting
to a full count, getting a fastball and hit a
three run homer, all because he knew what pitch was coming.
Because Scherzer was not I call it ball security like
the NFL, Joe was not protecting the way he was coming.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Set.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Now, the issue here with me, Joe, is the way
the Yankees are doing it. And Cody Bellinger talked after
the game about this. Yes, we have the signs and
we don't care whether you know it or not. There
used to be discretion when it came to signaling them.
You know, a guy would lean one way or another.
He would tap the top of his helmet, some subtle sign.
The Yankees are out there and landing airplanes on the tarmac.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
They don't care.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
And you know, even John Schneider, the Toronto Blue Jay manager,
was like, hey, that's on us now. I did speak
with another manager, Joe, and maybe you're along this line
as well, who told me, listen, everybody does it. We
do it, but we think it's disrespectful to do it
so blatantly. You know, they're more subtle about the way
they relay it when they do have the signs from somebody.

(06:07):
Should that make a difference, Joe, if you're getting the signs,
should you be essentially rubbing it in the face as
the other team or should you be more discreet about it?

Speaker 4 (06:16):
I like what Bellacher did. Actually, that's almost like the
Jack Ryan approach.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah, we did it, we got it, and now it's
your turn to do something about it back at us whatever.
So again this I think this is a weird philosophical
argument that could be bounced back and forth all day long.
There's no one right answer, and there's no wrong answer
right here. Yeah, if you're tipping like the I actually
wrote grip down before he got into that, because the

(06:41):
guys at second base can see.

Speaker 4 (06:43):
The hand in the glove.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
And furthermore, there are thieves on the bench that really
can pick up things in advance, just by the way
you come set. I've talked about this before the Great
West Westerroom. I used to sit with Wes at games
at Arizona State. West used to call pitches for Willie
Mays and William mcubvey from the first base coaching box,
and Wes would sit there and call Kendall Carter's pitches
right before he.

Speaker 4 (07:03):
Threw the ball.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
So that to me is fair game, I believe. And
so what kind of what bellingers say is fair game?
If and if ciarsar is that obvious, that's fair game.
That's that is not cheating in any way, shape or form.
That is good baseball as far as I'm concerned, And
I kind of agree there that retaliation is not necessary
right there. We have to do a better job of
protecting our pitches. When does the retaliation become an issue? Again,

(07:28):
I'm not saying actually like hit somebody, but you got
to make somebody uncomfortable. You got to change it up,
maybe signe wise, so that this typical tipping thing that
you're gonna do, you zig when they think you're gonna zag.
I mean, in other words, if they think it's a
fastball based on what you've been doing, so you tip
intentionally and then throw the opposite pitch to really confuse
because I'll tell you what, when you get it wrong once,

(07:49):
just one time, if the runner at second base gets
it wrong one time, the hitter loses a lot of
confidence there because it gets really uncomfortable when you're sitting
something soft save for instance, and all of a sudden
the guy buzzes you.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
Bad feeling, really bad feeling.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
So there's way I used to combat that within the
structure of the game where it does not call for
violence in a sense. But again, if you're messing it up,
if you're tipping, if you're doing things, that is fair game.
Just like I used to be really good. I talked
about this in stealing signs from third base coaches. I
would study them things that Preston Gomez had taught me,
and I had a really good run in the late

(08:24):
nineties when pitch out was more popular because of the
hit and run, etc. So that was always fair game.
That's not cheating to me, that's like good baseball sense.
So there's a fine line here between when you really
need to do something about it and as opposed to, yeah,
I gotta do something about I got to be better
at what we're doing and not being so concerned about
what they're doing.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, it was only about I want to say now,
three years ago, there was a pitching coach that showed
me screenshots of what his club was doing, and this
was on his own pitcher, where you could tell that
the position of his hand placement on a breaking ball
in the fastball was slightly different. Now they have algorithms

(09:04):
programs to go through all the videos on pictures, and
every club has videos, not just what you're watching at home,
but cameras trained on every picture to try to pick
up tells and they can tell by it essentially through
AI where something is different consistently, and so every team
is doing this. If you do have a tail, people

(09:24):
are going to know. You have to obviously self scout
to make sure you're not giving anything away. So it's
got next level in terms of technology. And I think pictures, well,
I know pictures have to spend so much time on it,
but I'm going to give you an example, Joe, of
how difficult it can be in the heat of competition.
Nabille Chris Mott is a picture for the Arizona Diamondbacks

(09:45):
and Tory Leavello, the manager realized he was tipping his pitches. Now,
you may have seen something like this in the past, Joe,
where he comes set with the hand in the glove
at the belt and he's essentially an off.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Speed pitcher, a lot of change ups, a lot of
breaking ball.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
But what he was regripping to throw a change up
or break the glove would fan a little more because
he's getting his fingers around the baseball when he was
throwing his fastball, where the fingers are not so much
around the baseball, the glove was not fanning. And there
were times in the course of a game after they
alerted him to this where Tori from the dugout would
actually yell at him and say, stop it.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
You're doing it again.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Because your body wants to do it. It wants to do
naturally right. He'd a competition, maybe you're not paying attention
to it, and every once in a while, Tory we'd
have to remind him. But that's how they fixed him.
And every team had this. So this is going on
and you can't get away with it the way you
did in the past because every team has essentially an
army of analysts who are looking at these things. It's
part of what the game is today, and I think

(10:44):
that's why the culture has changed.

Speaker 4 (10:46):
Though.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
As you mentioned, there used to be certain guys like
a West westroom who has almost a gift to figure
out these tells, and now you have an army of
analysts breaking pictures down. So everybody's doing it and there's
a lot of focus and attention and time paid to it, no.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
Doubt all true. The thing I still like, I'm surprised
that maybe more haven't done. It is like a Ryan Dempster.
Remember Demper would just constantly move his glove he.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Was making a martini.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
Joe, Yeah, exactly, shaken nuts, stirred or stirred, not shake
no shaken nuts dirt. Yes, I don't understand why maybe
that might not become more popular. The problem with that
is just the you suggest that being comfortable or uncomfortable
doing those kinds of things from the picture's perspective. So
that would be something you would have to teacher, really
want to get into in the minor league situation, just
to make it more complicated in a sense, just the

(11:32):
way you start, as opposed to just this pure clean delivery,
because there was even to the point back I remember
specifically a very popular thing when the guys used to
do a more full wind up, when their hand would
swing down by the side of their body. Out of
the wind up, you would see only fingers on a
fastball in the hand came back and you would see
a lot of white on a breaking ball, And that

(11:54):
was a really easy surefire away of really determining what
was with pitch was coming at you. So there's all
the little nuance involved. But I liked the idea of
a little bit more movement with your glove as you
start this whole thing, and then out of the with
the runner on second base, if you truly believe that's
going on to set it up in advance, that you're
gonna call one thing and do something completely different just

(12:15):
to get this hitter off of it. Because again I'm
telling you one time and the hitter, the hitter will
definitely retreat at that point.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, it's surprising to me that Max Scherzer is still
coming to the set position with his hands so high
and away from his body. If you watch most pitchers today,
their glove is tight on the belly, I mean really
close to the body. A lot of guys actually have
it turned more towards the side so it's even away
from the hitter, so you don't see any regripping. You
don't see the shape of the glove. To me, pitching

(12:44):
has changed a lot in that way, Joe. You don't
see guys coming set with their hands higher away from
their body, and Max Scherzer did that.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
And listen, when you're playing the Yankees.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
These days, as Cody Bellinger let us know, they're not
bashful about it, and they're as good as anybody when
it comes to breaking down. And not necessarily the players.
I'm talking about the front office. You know they have
Maven's there who can figure these things out. You have
to know when you're playing New York ball, security is
a top priority. They can get inside your head.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
No doubt. I mean. And that's like I said, that's
all good.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
I have no issue with that, and you're right about
the to me, that's where analytics is.

Speaker 4 (13:19):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
Actually, I don't think that's cheating. What I wanted to do,
I guess it was illegal. But what I wanted to
do way back when in the nineties was as I
was the first base coach with the Angels, I wanted
a camera behind first base, at least at home, so
I could study the opposition pitchers moves to try to
give a better key to the runner in order to
like just especially against the lefty, to get a better

(13:41):
jump and even steal against left tended pictures were.

Speaker 4 (13:44):
Know when to come back. So I always thought that
would have been a good.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
Idea, and I was told I couldn't do that although
we had like Little Diego had little cameras on both
sides for hitters that I had him kind of read
direct towards the picture when we got to that particular point,
I can't. I'd like to say that it was more helpful.
It really wasn't. But I think based on today's abilities,
I would even be surprised that that's not being done

(14:07):
at some point. But all this stuff, all the chech man,
I'm telling you, it does. It turns it down into
a still picture that you can be studied. And then
you just played over and over again for the guys
before the game, and all of a sudden you got
a definitive key when you know the other team signs
of what they're doing. Man, it's a tremendous advantage, just
as you would think it is.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yeah, I mean it works for the Yankees. I mean
the fact that they do it so blatantly. It actually
is an effective way because it has to be done quickly.
Remember they're talking about a run around first relaying to second,
run around second relaying to the batter, and in some
cases it was the first pace coach relaying to the
runner on second base. So you can see it's right
before the shurezer begins to take the body the glove

(14:49):
and begin the delivery, that the batter is getting the
message from second. That's enough time, right, Joe. If you're
a batter and you realize you're getting.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Tipped off that the change up is coming, even if.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
It's right before the pitch, you could do so you're
gonna sit back.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, I'll tell you what we And again on the
basis to give an example, we had a triangulation going
on with the Angels. Ron Redicky, great third base coach,
outstanding and he learned it from Joey mal Patano, and
we had Primo Alfredo Griffin at first and I was
in the dugout.

Speaker 4 (15:16):
What we tried to do is get the.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
Bench coaches signs to the catcher, because it was everything
was control throwover or no throw over, and maybe a
pitch out signed too. So what we'd be able to
do once we figure them out, we would be able to.
If I got it, you give it to Rags and
Rags that's Ronnie Renicke. He'd look in to he'd look
at the runner at first base in the moment Rags
the pitcher comes set. If Rags would lean towards his

(15:39):
left like towards second base. The runner knew that the
pitcher was not coming over, so the runner had this
free reign of going to second base if he did
not lean, maybe Ronnie wasn't sure. Heads up, the ball
is coming over to you. A tremendous advantage, so sometimes
Primo Alfredo Griffin would grab it. He was also good
at grips and he could see the catcher sign sometimes
all this stuff. So we had this triangulation work. And

(16:00):
if you remember in the early two thousands, we did
a great job against the Yankees. We had the bench
coach signs coming in on the throwovers, and they had
two different catches, Pisado and Flaherty, and we knew each
had I think it was first sign or second sign
based on who the catcher was, and we had that
all figured out. So in that like you're talking about,
that nanosecond, that brief moment, we could get that sign,

(16:21):
get it to Rags. Rags in a moment would see
what was going on and he would lean or not lean.

Speaker 4 (16:26):
And we had a tremendous advantage.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
And that was all done by the factor because the
other team did not conceal their signs.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Well enough, great stuff. I love hearing those stories, Joe.
What I want to hear from you next is the
teams that played for the National League Pennant last year.
The Dodgers and the New York Mets are both scuffling.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
Are they in trouble?

Speaker 1 (16:47):
We'll examine that right after this on the Book of Joe.
Welcome back to the Book of Joe, and we need
to talk about the New York Mets. Joe, they are
in a fourteen and twenty four free fall since the

(17:09):
end of July. They've actually outscored their opponents by somehow,
losing twenty four of those thirty eight games two eighteen
to two eight. They've outscored opponents. Now, there was a
couple of blowout wins they had in there, but they're
losing close games. They've lost eleven of the last fifteen
games decided by two runs. Monday night, they go to Philadelphia.
They lose again by one run, one to nothing. Tell

(17:30):
me about what you see of this team, Joe. It
should be a much better team offensively. We know about
some of the issues they've had in the pitching department,
but they're in a bit of.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
A free fall. Here and they don't seem to be
able to stop it.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, it's kind of like your record tells you who
you are. Kind of a thing that Bill Parcells. Listen
on the field, they got some nice things going on,
there's no question. I mean Alonso, thank god they signed him, right,
I mean, had they not signed him, that had been
an entirely different look for them for this season. What
I see a lot of times from my perspective, a
lot of breakdowns in the bullpen. Hensley comes over from

(18:01):
the Cardinals that miss and this guy's got great stuff.
He doesn't have good stuff, he's got great stuff. So
maybe he's the tipper of the month. I don't know,
because guys are all over his stuff and I've seen
him in person. This is really high end fuel that's
getting turned around quite regularly.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
You'll let me stop you there, Yeah, roughly, because that's
a great point. I'm watching him against Philadelphia Monday night.
You saw him pitching. He threw fifteen pitches, fourteen of
them were breaking balls. This is a guy who throws
one hundred miles an hour, averages about fifty percent of
his pitches being foreseen fastballs. He threw one foreseen fastball

(18:38):
out of fifteen pitches. There's no reason to that. I mean,
he's facing Batory, he's facing Kepler, he's facing real Muto.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
You know, this wasn't Schwerbery, it wasn't Harper.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
I mean, for a guy like that to run away
from his fastball, he's had a tremendous amount of trouble
trying to get into a routine now that he's not
the ninth inning. Pitch the ninth inning, you know, clean
one inning every single time. Just does not do a
good job when dropped into a game before the ninth inning.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
This is a big.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Problem for the New York Mets. Why would he throwing
so many breaking balls?

Speaker 4 (19:05):
Joe two, I think I got two points.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
I would think of Number one would be that he's
not proud of his fastball. That's the that's the phrase
we use, even though it registers and triple digits. He's
not proud of his fastball. The confidence has gone, it's
gotten turned around a little bit. And it could be
that other part would be the way the other team,
the Mets breakdown the other team's hitters and we throw
this guy. Just feed this guy breaking balls, his feeding
breaking balls. He can't hit a breaking ball that kind

(19:29):
of a thing. So or it just might be a
combination of both. That he's not proud of his fastball
right now, plus this particular group of hitters you're talking about,
because real Mudo has been hot too. Man, he's had
a nice second half. They that just might have been strategy.
He's also he's got a really good breaking ball too.
So I just think from what I've seen, Like I said,
I've seen that one hundred one on one been turned

(19:50):
around like a god dang it.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
It's just like the evolution of the hitter.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
The fact that back in the day, like ninety three
ninety four was considered gas and I know there's different
ways of measuring it based on different guns and whatever.
But all of a sudden and this guy's getting turned around.
So I think he's his confidence has been nicked up
a little bit there, and thus he's taken a different avenue.
So the truth probably lies somewhere in the combination of

(20:14):
all those different reasons. But that's a big part of
the problem. He's lost some pretty big moments for them.
And then the thing that people don't talk about enough
for me is that the momentum lost when you lose
games like that, and how it compounds, and how it's
difficult to turn it around the next day and come
back and get back on a street. You have this
ability to kind of get hot and stay hot, and

(20:35):
you put yourself in a good position all night long,
and all of a sudden puff there it goes away,
and then it happens again a day or two later.
That's kind of devastating stuff. So that's the ancillary component
to all this, and nobody ever talks about. And I
was really big on it, and that's why man I
always played every game to win every night, because momentum
gain or momentum loss matters.

Speaker 4 (20:55):
It's something that cannot be measured. It's a field thing.

Speaker 3 (20:57):
You walk in the clubhousekies the conversation comes more easily
with one another. There's more trepidation, you could tell, the
derbusness and voices or confidence and voices. These are the
kind of These are the unmeasurables that happen both ways,
the confident way and the non confident way. So that's
part of it. Because on the field of the atos
is getting hot. God, when this guy is playing right

(21:18):
or swinging the bat well interesting baty all you know
had a decent year for them. I've seen Nimmeldud good things,
and there's a lot of good going on there. But
I think for me, the primary problem has been the
breakdown in the bullpen, not holding leads or games that
prevent them from gaining the momentum that they so desperately need.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that the idea that
of momentum gained and loss because baseball is not at
the sketch you know, you don't shake it and get
a complete new start the next day. I can feel
it as I go around and see teams and talk
to managers and players and coaches. You know when a
team is in a good place and it is built
non confidence or lack thereof if you don't have it.
And that's my question for you, Joe, is when you

(21:57):
deal with someone like Hellsley are the Yankees and Aaron
Boone went through this with Devin Williams. Dave Roberts is
going through this with Tanner Scott. You've got guys who've
got great stuff right and a great track record, and
you keep throwing them out there in high leverage situations
because you are confident that that's the pitcher that they are.

(22:18):
But to me watching some of these guys, especially Hellsley,
at some point, you've got to say it's different. Right now,
we've got to back them up, get them out of
high leverage things. Work on something, whether it's pitch selection
or mechanics, whatever it might be, to try to get
him right instead of just putting these guys in the
same high leverage spots because they've done it in the past.

(22:40):
Sometimes you got to get off a guy, even if
it's temporarily.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
I would go to the pitching coach and I would say,
we got to get him in, get him out, get
him in, get him out. That was my way of
rebuilding confidence a little bit easier. I think back in
the day when it was not a three batter minimum.

Speaker 4 (22:55):
The three batter minimum kind of makes that more difficult.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
So in today's game, I would look for a two
out situation and bring somebody in with two outs so
that he can get an smatch up.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
Get him in, get him out, get that last out,
walk off the field.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
I don't have to put him back out there the
next inning. I called him, get him in and get
him out, And that's exactly what I would say to
my pitching coach, and for me, there was a like
I said, an easier matchup. Now, of course if he
does get the first guy out when he comes in,
and I'd prefer to be like with nobody on if possible,
or maybe just one guy on. But that was my
method of rebuilding confidence with a relief pitcher that was
struggling a good guy or any guy, but especially a

(23:29):
good guy. So I'd like to get him and get
him out. And that's what I would suggest, because if
you keep putting himTo the leverage moments in it, man,
you could just see it in the face. Devin Williams
have been watching it all year and I think he's
full and everybody. Once in a while he has somewhat
of a clean inning, but it's not really clean. I
don't like his armstroke. I don't know this is analytically.
I'd love to see the breakdown of his release point
compared to now and in the past, and like the

(23:51):
arm speed at the point of release. Things like that
are the things that to me, it's like a non
committed golf swinger. Just everything's being guided or pushed or aimed.
That's what I see with guys that are off that
are good, but are not good at the very moment.
So I would suggest get him in, get him out.
Look for those moments. I know you well, we might
be wasting him with just one out in the seventh,
and you know you're not. You're trying to build this
confidence up so that the next couple times out the guy.

(24:14):
It's really cool when you get the last out of
an inning and you walk into the dugout and you
sit back down.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
You know your day's over.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
That deep breath shows up, and then you go inside,
ice down whatever you need to do, and then your
confidence going to the next day is much greater.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
By the way, great call on Devin Williams checking the
numbers here. His arm angle has dropped for a fifth
consecutive year. He's gone from a thirty one degree angle
to a twenty one degree angle. I mean, I know
understand he's a side spin guy, he wants to work
around the baseball, but that tells you he's getting even
lower on that baseball.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Good point there with your own eyes.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
I love that, Joe. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
One other point of the Mets, because it turns out
their deadline work really not that good. Hell's the big
pickup of the bullpen has been a zero and Cedric
Mullins a big pickup for centerfield man.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
He's been bad for the New York Mets.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
His lash line one seventy four, two eighty four, two
seventy two. Slug to meet Joe. He's a non player
right now. The defense is not good. He can run
it down, but he doesn't really throw well. And against
Philadelphia Monday night, Mets are down one nothing. Fifth inning,
leadoff runner gets on base, Brett Baty, Mallins tries to bunt. Now,
I don't know whether that was from the bunt from

(25:25):
the venture or not, but this is Mullins batting against
Aaron Nolan the fifth inning of a one nothing game.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
That's I don't understand.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
The top of the lineup is coming around, but that
should not be a bunt situation. In the fifth inning,
first pitch pops up with fastball, so there's an out.
Lindor on the second pitch he sees flies out and
then Brett Baty gets picked off first base.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
So in a matter of three pitches, hitting over.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
But what do you see with Cedric Mullins and and
the idea that you're get a butt in the fifth
inning in Philadelphia Mullins hitting against the right handed pitcher.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
First of all, I like him, I've always liked him,
and I agree. I've been watching the whole thing and
it's been very difficult. And they're just like you said,
their acquisitions, really I thought, really good acquisitions are not
playing up.

Speaker 4 (26:09):
To their capabilities right now.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
Want to get here's another thing you talked about the
picture that's struggling guys like hitting that struggling like that.
And I know he's a veteran, but I had this
little thing I used to do with guys. Also, First
at bat, you take a strike, Second at bat, you
take a pitch. Third at bat, you're on your own
unless in those first two at batches are runner in
scoring quisition than Rock and roll. The point was a
lot of times I just don't think you're seeing the

(26:32):
ball well and you're a little bit too antsy, a
little bit like maybe overly aggressive.

Speaker 4 (26:36):
I did it with Dallas mcsperrison.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
I wasn't even the hitting coach at the time, but
Dallas was a really good prospect coming up with the
Angels and really didn't have a definitive planet home plate.
The interference would be and I didn't. I hate to
tell guys what to do, but I just a strong suggestion.
You're first at bat, get up there. Just take a strike.
So you're gonna get up there. You know, you don't,
don't concede anything, go through your normal routine. You look
like you're going to swing and then don't. And if

(26:59):
it's a strike, okay, you're ready to rock and roll.
It's ball one. I've taken the I'm taking the next
pitch until I get a strike. And this kind of
like settles you down a little bit. The biggest thing
is that probably the ball looks like ap to him
right now, or even a pink punk ball whatever. It's
just that small and it's that quick. You got to
slow it down. You got to focus on seeing the
ball first, and you got to think small and not big.

(27:22):
So I would do anything I possibly could to get
him in that mindset. And that's it. I mean, he's good,
he's good. I mean if he gets again. We talked
about confidence a moment ago. If he gets his confidence
all of a sudden, he's gonna be a big contributor
to what they're doing. But sometimes you got to create
a plan. How do I slow this down? How do
I get the ball? To see the ball big?

Speaker 4 (27:42):
Again?

Speaker 3 (27:42):
I used to y'all see it big, because I'll tell
you what. When that ball gets small, man, it is
on you in a blink of an eye, not even
the blink of an eye, and it's just in the
catcher's mid and you feel absolutely helpless.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
Well, the New York Mets are, they're in trouble.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
I still like their chances obviously to be a get
into the postseason, but they're at a point now where
Codai Sanga, who should be their ace in the minor leagues,
They've got a six man rotation with three rookies in there.
Three rookies in your rotation in September, trying to hang
on vicarious situation for me. We'll see how that plays out.
As far as the La Dodgers go, Joe. In the

(28:18):
last one hundred games, they're fifty one to forty nine.
They've not played really good baseball for a long time.
And to me, the biggest culprit is their bullpen. If
you look at the twelve teams in playoff position today,
the Dodgers have the worst bullpen. You break it down
any way, you want slugging decisions because they have a
lot of games decided the bullpen.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
They're losing a lot of these games. Listen, they got
Alex Vesia back.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
He's been a big key for them with that crazy
spin for seing fastball that he has, and Dave Roberts
goes to him a lot. But tell me what you
see the Dodgers where you think their bullpen is an
issue that will carry over into the postseason.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
What happened the other night I was happening to I mean,
I'm watching the I guess I was watching the news,
and all of a sudden, that little thing comes up,
no hitter. So I turned on the Dodger game, and
you have a Moto is just shoving, I mean absolutely
in command with the reels, and I'm watching he gets
too quick outs in the night that oh my god.
And then he did I don't know why, but he
throws a breaking ball middle and I don't think he

(29:12):
tried to throw it there, and all of a sudden
home run, which his name the kid Holiday, the Holiday
app it's the homer to write barely gets over it's
a homer. Here comes training and everybody's having a love
fest on the mound, which I don't like. And then
and all of a sudden, here we go with basic,
basic base hit.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
Game over.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
But I'll defend a training and he did have that
one dude struck out. I can't remember who the hitter was, Umpart,
absolutely blue or cult strike three pitch. However, that happens,
and you got to move on from there. But the
fact that they lost that game was like, that really
was telling. I thought, So, you know, they're coming off
like this glamorous season, the Hollywood season. They won, they won,
they won, and you know, that's the first real world

(29:52):
series victory. The one the trunk haaty year not so much.
And so I don't know, I think there's a little
bit of that still going on. There's a little bit
of I don't want to say, resting on your laurels,
but there's a safe there's kind of satiated in a sense,
and they haven't really pushed to the level that they
have in the pastor we're lying on a lot of
young players too. Man, there's a lot of no namers
out there that are cutting their teeths. So from the

(30:13):
Dodger's perspective as an organization, it would consider that okay,
like the fact that we're just okay right now, but
we're relying on a lot of young players that are
really starting to possibly turn the corner an end are
our future. So there's some things to like there too,
in spite of their record, But overall, they are who
they are, like the fifty one to forty nine, that's
who they are right now, and we'll see. It's got

(30:34):
to that point if they got to switch, if they
got the Jimmy Edmunds switch, they need to turn it
on right now because you just can't wait till the
playoffs and all of a sudden, I think you're gonna turn.
I think they need to turn up the dial right now.
They've got to get really focused and almost among each
other talking about listen, let's we got to finish this
strong and get ready for the playoffs, because if they
go into the rest of September in the very mediocre

(30:55):
away which they have, I don't think it's going to
happen for them.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
It's a great point, Joe, because I think that's what
they're doing. I think they're relying on the fact that
they are battle to they know how to respond in
big moments.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Back against the wall. Their talent is going to show.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
And I'm not saying they're not trying, but I think
the sense of urgency they have not played with that
this year. I will tell you I saw the Yankees
go through this in two thousand. I mean, they were
terrible in September, and every time they got into a
big spot in the postseason, they would find a way
to win a game.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
It can happen.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
I know people don't want to hear that that you
can't turn it on and off like a switch, but
it can happen. When you talk about teams, especially teams
like those Yankees were in two thousand and this Dodger
team that has so much experience, it had been in
so many different situations and predicaments that they can basically
will their way and especially talent, their way out of it.

(31:49):
I just think the thing to watch with the Dodgers now,
they're not as good of a defensive team as they've
been in the past.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
That is clear to me, and the bullpen is an issue.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
I don't think Dave Roberts right now has a clear
path to an endgame here where he wants to go,
and he's got the arms to do it. But again,
a guy like Tanner Scott scares me right now. He's
another two pitch guy. If you can't command both pitches
and people narrow it down. Especially his fastball has become
much more hittable this year. Stuff looks good, track record

(32:19):
looks great, but the way he's pitching right now would
scare me a little bit.

Speaker 4 (32:23):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
And as a manager, when you're in this position, you
like absolutes. You have your your your formulaic way of
winning a baseball game. Guys that you could count on
your even orhead guys are even or ahead guys, and
you're not ambivalent with that. They're not ambivalent. They're they're
going to show up every night or almost every night.
It's like a ninety five or ninety seven percent of
the time you know.

Speaker 4 (32:44):
What to expect.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
But when you don't, Wow, that's very unsettling from a
manager's perspective. Of course, from the team and organizational perspective,
it's even more insettling. But being the person having to
make these choices when you don't know what to expect, Wow,
is that difficult. It is so difficult, And even with
some tried and true kind of dudes, it's it makes you.
It makes your job like extraordinarily difficult. And again with

(33:06):
the three batter minimum, it's becomes compounded when you can't
match up again, like just even if it any begins
and the right he gets the first dot. Here comes
a lefty and the lefties Tanner Scott and they're not
going to pinch it. I want to bring Tanner Scott
in to face this one lefty and he gets him out.
Here comes a righty afterwards, boom boom. I get these
guys in and out of games, and I'm able to
build up their confidence again slowly.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
It just takes these little micro moments to.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Put us in the right frame of mind, where it
takes the little micro moments to put us in a
bad frame of mind, and it just it becomes really
a contagion that doesn't want.

Speaker 4 (33:36):
To go away. So that's the one part.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
About the bullpen manipulation that I would miss when I
got guys that are really not being themselves. The three
batter minimum puts me at a disadvantage of trying to
get them well by really slotting them on a one
or maybe two guys that I feel really good about
them with because guess of that third guy and it
might be a bad matchup, and you know it.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
You know what going into it. Man, you look, you
got you always right now you're working little pods.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
You don't just work. You don't put like one name
after a hitter's name. Now you got to work in
pods of three. Every time you set up your bullpen
before the game, it's always it's a threesome. So these
are the kind of things that I think a manager
would be missing right now.

Speaker 4 (34:18):
I think as.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
The inability the rules get in the way right now
of trying to fix somebody a little bit.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Quicker Pennant raise baseball always exciting, so much urgency. He
can't rely on the old adage that it's a long season,
it's a marathon.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
It's it's urgent time. It's fun to watch.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
I guess, un listen, you're a Mets fan these days,
and it might be a little difficult to watch.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
But I've a quick break. We'll get to this. A
bit of sad news.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
We lost one of the great big baseball lives who
I think has been underappreciated across his career at baseball.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
We'll talk about that next.

Speaker 5 (34:50):
On the Book of Joe.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Welcome Back, to the book of Joe Joe Madden.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
I'm not sure if you ever came across your travels
Davy Johnson, manager famously of the world champion New York
Mets of nineteen eighty six, but a long distinguished playing
and managing career.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
But he seems like you're kind of guy.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
Yeah, I came across Dave. You actually got in a
pretty good argument with him.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
I'm not surprised.

Speaker 4 (35:22):
Yeah. It was in Washington.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
We're playing the Nationals, still with the Rays, and Joel
Prault was pitching for US, who had pitched for Washington
the year before, and Davy called him out on pine
tar and so the Empires go out there, and of
course it was true, and so Joel not only gets
kicked out of the game, everything's confiscated, and then he
gets suspended.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
For eight games after that.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
But as this is happening, as the Empires are out there,
I kind of took a walk towards their dugout during
the game, and I'm kind of screaming in their dugout
because my problem with the whole thing was the fact
that Joe had just pitched the other year before, so
of course they had all this insight intel they had,
so don't act like you're doing something spectacular. It's almost
like the time Frank Robinson called Brendan Donnelly on it

(36:07):
in Anaheim. I got kind of upset about that too.
I wasn't the manager though, so that's the one that
was my one run in with him. Afterwards, I said
some things, probably would like to retract it, and he
came back.

Speaker 4 (36:17):
He called me a weird woos. A weird wos was.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
What appeared in the paper the next day, which I
absolutely loved anyway. And Marcel Lashman worked with him with
the USA teams, and Marshall loved him, and I know
the guys that played for him loved him also.

Speaker 4 (36:31):
I just didn't get to.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
Know him well, but I know would have been my
kind of manager. What he did with the was eighty
five mets it. It was kind of like a computerized
version of a manager back then. He was, you know,
like the earl weaver of the platooning kind of a thing.
Gene Mack with all of his intellect, and Davy Johnson
I think stood out a little bit and in regards
to how he did things and the positive nature of

(36:53):
the way he did do things.

Speaker 4 (36:54):
I just didn't know him.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
I didn't get to know him well, but I did
have that one run in with him. So yeah, it's
and I'm reading the comments from the former Met players.
They love this guy. They absolutely love this guy. And
that screams at me too. So I had one difficult
moment with him, but I laughed about it, and I'm
sure he did too.

Speaker 4 (37:12):
It is a tough loss. He's he eighty two years old.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, he's one of only three people and the others
are Joe Tory and Dusty Baker who had more than
one hundred home runs in the big leagues and then
was three hundred games over five hundred as a manager
in the big leagues. Now, he is the eighth highest
winning percentage of all managers who managed at least two
thousand games in the big leagues. You know, everybody in

(37:35):
the top ten is in the Hall of Fame except
Davy Johnson.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
He just won.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
He was the first, besides winning the World Series and
still the last Mets manager to win the World Series,
the first manager to bring the Washington Nationals to the postseason,
and that was the year with Stephen Strasburg shutdown, so
he didn't have his ace and the loss of the
Cardinals in the DS.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
He's the lost Baltimore Orioles.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
Manager to take his team and win games in the ALCS.
He's the last Cincinnati Reds manager to win around in
the postseason. Everywhere he went won. And especially Joe, that
New York Mets team, I was there, full of just characters, personality,
and that was Davy.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
They took on his swagger.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
Now, there are a bunch of confident guys, and they
would have had swagger anyway, but Davy allowed them to
play that way, to be that way, to live hard
off the field. Day didn't care as long as you
showed up on time. And with that Mets team, that
was a problem sometimes. Don't get me wrong. It sounds
like a simple rule, but it was tough for them
to make to get to the ballpark on time and
to play hard.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
They had no problem doing that.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Joe, that was one of, if not the best rally
teams I've ever seen. There was no quit in that team.
And it wasn't just you know, Game six of the
World Series against Boston, they played that way.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
I called it. There are a bunch of middle aged marauders.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
The Mets would come into town, they wanted to drink
your beer and kick your butt.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
They get out of town and go on to the
next conquest.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
They had this way of playing that reflected Davy's confidence.
I have not been around too many guys, Joe who
wore their confidence as openly as Davy Johnson. You know,
I was a young reporter back then covering the Mets,
and that Bob Klappish was another young beat reporter, and
Davy used to always tell us because we loved asking
him questions, not just to learn about the game, but

(39:17):
we wanted to know what he was thinking. As you mentioned,
he was a mathematics major in college, one of the
first managers to use a computer. Didn't rely on it
to make decisions, but used it to inform decisions. Davy
would say to us so many times. If he said
it once, he must have said it a hundred times.
You guys, you know just enough about baseball to be dangerous.

(39:38):
But he would welcome our questions after the game. He
had the thickest skin I've ever seen. When the Mets
fired him in nineteen ninety, essentially told me, you know what,
if the Mets are dumb enough to fire me, then
I was working for the wrong team anyway, just tremendously
confident in what he knew and what he did.

Speaker 4 (39:56):
Yeah, that all suns.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
I mean the word that jumps is charismatic. I mean
that's that whole team and him and Davy himself. Now,
after hearing all this, I wish I'd spoke to him
more often. I didn't do that enough. But that's all
really desirable traits did not get in the way of
the greatness of the Mets. I mean, I know there's
a lot of guys managers of that era that would
have tried to compromise that natural creativity of those players

(40:20):
and try to rein them in, create more discipline here,
or whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
I wanted my discipline.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
I always wanted my discipline as a manager on the field,
meaning that we played the game a certain way. We
played it hard, Like you suggested, Guys knew where to
throw the baseball when it was hit to them. You
ran hard to first base, pitchers worked on your defense.
You know how to hold the runner on first base.
If you got a bunch, you knew where to throw
it and how to throw it. Those are the kind
of things that's where you want your discipline and not
to the point you want. You know, you don't have

(40:46):
to go to the police station at night, but you
definitely want this state out of their way and not
tell them how to dress, how to act, and permit
them to be adults, which they are. They probably all
had kids and they were after all, they were of
drinking age and able to serve in the armed forces.
So that's where I've always had issues. And good for him,
Good for him. I love hearing all of this, and
that makes being called a word whisp by him even

(41:07):
more spectacular.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
Well, he had a Boston Frank Cash and the general
manager who was very old school, and it rubbed him
the wrong way that he thought this Mets team was
a little too loose.

Speaker 4 (41:17):
You know.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
They traded Kevin Mitchell because they thought he was a
bad influence on Dwight Gooden.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Davey didn't care.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Davy was a guy who played Kevin Mitchell at shortstop
when he had a fly ball pitcher like Sid Fernandez
on the mound. Davy ran a game where he brought
in Jesse Roscoe and Roger McDowell, alternating between the outfield
and the pitcher's mound. He was short of players because
some guys got ejected during a fight, and that happened
a lot in Mets games.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
He wasn't afraid to make moves.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
He moved Cal Ripken off a shortstop to third base
to play Manny Alexander. This is what Davey did. But
Frank Cash and thought he was little too lax. And
he reminds me of you, Joe, this way and your
famous line like never get in the way of greatness.
And he didn't want to put governors on these guys
who played fast and loose.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
That was Davey Johnson.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
And when they fired him, Frank Cash made Bud Harrelson
the manager and essentially told them you need rules, and
they started instituting rules. They had no card playing in
the clubhouse, they had no golf on the road. They
established a curfew. When was the last time you had
heard curfew in Major League Baseball? None of it worked,
and David Johnson said, listen, Frank, one of these rules.

(42:23):
We didn't need them. And of course it didn't work
when they went the other way. But David Johnson was
the right manager for the right players because exactly what
you said, Joe all along, don't get in the way
of greatness.

Speaker 4 (42:33):
Yeah, if you're.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
Winning, it's not being too loose, it's being like a
free spirited having a blast family. All those different words
are utilized. It's like, are the rules and regulations of
the past? Is that the comp to present day analytical
situation where things are wanting to be controlled so much.
Maybe that's why I recognized where I think analytics has
gone too far because I was never really into a

(42:56):
whole bunch of rules and regulations.

Speaker 4 (42:58):
I called them policies.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
I had my meetings with my players, and I would
never use the word rules in rags. I did early
on in my career. Then I got over it, and
then we started as great policies. And when you have policy,
it's a little bit more open minded. It's something that's
not as rigid. It's something that I think is malleable
and not so straightforward and harsh. So I get all that,

(43:22):
and I agree with Davy's methods, and like I said,
I wish I'd gotten to know him better based on
this conversation.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Right now, just to wrap things up on Davey Johnson,
you know what a life you know, one two world
series as a player, one as a manager. He had
the last hit off Sandy Kofax. He hit behind Hank
aaron En, Sadahara.

Speaker 5 (43:40):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
He managed Rusty Stobb.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Who was born in nineteen forty four, and Bryce Harper
who was born in nineteen ninety two. You know, this
guy basically did it all in the game except get
into the Hall of Fame. And one thing I have
to point out Joe is that when he was the
Mets TRIPAA manager, when he was promoted, he paid his
dues in the minor leagues right, and so he had

(44:03):
some of these guys in the team in the minor leagues.
He was the one who told Frank Cash in nineteen
eighty four that Dwight Gooden, who was nineteen years old,
was so good they had to carry about the opening
day roster. Imagine that now, a team carrying a nineteen
year old pitcher on the opening day roster.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
But Davey understood, this guy's the best picture I've had.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
And you look at Gooden, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera, Randy Myers,
Sid Fernandez, and then David Cohene after that, all these pitchers,
young pitchers who Davy Johnson had in a short two
three year window. They all pitched twelve to sixteen years
in the major leagues. He was a master at handling

(44:45):
young pitchers, and I can hear him to this day
talking about when Darling and Gooden and Fernandez were in
a game. This is when people paid attention to wins
and losses. He never wanted them to be in a
situation where they could lose a game where they were
pitching well. So, in other words, a three run lead,
leadoff guy gets on base, that's probably the opportunity to
get the picture out of the game. He never wanted

(45:07):
his pitcher to walk off the field with a bad
feeling with a loss next to their name. It mattered
back then, and I think to some degree it still matters. Joe,
But the way he handled young pitching, and especially and
Melstottlemeyer was his pitching coach all those years, did a
fabulous job.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Proof is in the pudding.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
When you have guys lasting twelve to sixteen years after
starting as a young pitchers.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
The nineteen year old good And today would have that,
what five innings at the most seventy five pitches.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
Maybe he's not pitching third time around a line, oh
every six or seventh day.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
That's like interference with greatness right there? Now, listen, I'm
happy you've brought this subject up because I have a
greater appreciation for Davy.

Speaker 4 (45:46):
Now that's all I mean.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
Like you said, I mean, you're saying things that kind
of remind me of like a lot of things that
I had done, because I would pay attention with the
three run lead for ast guy gets on, you know,
get get the dude out of there.

Speaker 4 (45:57):
If I failed to do.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
That in situations, I'd get upset with myself because I
was I asleep at the switch? Did I miss something
right here? All that little nuance that you're talking about
there that he did is very relevant. And you do
build up cachet with your group. And it's not like
you're painting to the by any means. These guys have
already pitched really well. They've had a great night. Let
him go home having a great night and not leaving

(46:18):
the ballpark with a less dand feeling after they were
so spectacular. So little moments like that, if you're really
paying attention and understand human nature, know your guys, et cetera,
you could make these kind of moves that are kind
of subtle that nobody really truly ever talks about. But
you know, make a difference obviously for the team and
then individually because long term you're gonna get some really

(46:38):
good work out of these guys because they know they
us the manager taking.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
Care of them.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
Well, one thing I appreciate Joe is he always spoke
his mind. You know, it's something we've lost in the
game today, not just as you mentioned the characters in
the game, but for managers who are willing to go
out there almost on an island and just tell you
this truth.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
And that was Davey Johnson, real quick, famous story.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
He actually double switched Daryl Strawberry out of that Game
six of the World Series, so his best lugger is
tied the ninth inning and to move the pitcher spot,
he took Strawberry out of the game. And after the game,
one of the classic World Series games in baseball history,
the met's coming from behind, Buckner makes the error. Clubhouse
is going nuts after the game, and Darryl Strawberry ripped

(47:20):
his manager.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
That's a terrible mistake, taking me out of the.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
Game, And of course Davy being Davy, goes right back
after him and essentially says, you know what, After a
few years, maybe Darryl can be managerial material, But right
now he's thinking about himself and I'm thinking about what
I need to do two or three innings ahead.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
That stuff doesn't happen anymore.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
No, it can't happen anymore. I mean, oh my god,
the whole team would rally against the manager.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
If you said that.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Then the player that said that would have what twenty
five allies, and probably one of the trainers, the massage guy,
the pilates dude, all would be on the side of
the players.

Speaker 4 (47:54):
So no, you can't.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
You can't speak so openly and freely anymore. We talk
about it, the truth tellers, and I know truth comes
in different shapes and sizes. It could be disguised, is
biased it sometimes, But I love the truth tellers, man.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
And that we were surrounded by them.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
And I've in our book, the Book of Joe We
you know, I talk about Bobbaloo. Bob clear my god, man,
if you want your hair party, you don't even need
a comb. Just have a controversial conversation with Bobba Looo
and your hair would come back part it. God, I
love that stuff, and that's what's missing everybody always having
to parse the truth and really stay away from trying

(48:31):
to hurt somebody's.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
Feelings even though they need to be told.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Last point on that is like, but it read a
great line, which I've always tried to consider honesty without
compassion equals cruelty. So you got to know the guys
that you could like shoot between the eyeballs and they'll
be able to they'll take it, and there's others that
if you do, they're just gonna crumble. So you have
to like be honest, but maybe not as severely honest.

Speaker 4 (48:53):
With certain people. And I think there's too much of
that going on today.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
Well, speaking of great lines, Joe, it's time for you
to give us some truth telling here to take us
home on this edition of the Book of Joe.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
What do you have for us?

Speaker 4 (49:04):
You're gonna have to follow along.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
I mean, I was looking for motivation today and it
was Leonardo da Vinci and I read this line from him,
and I thought it was fabulous and it pertains to baseball.
I'm going to rearrange a few of the words. So
this quote comes from Leonardo da Vinci, who I think
was born in like fourteen fifty two and passed in
the early and mid fifteen hundreds. But Leonardo said baseball

(49:28):
fans to According to baseball fans, baseball is poetry that
is seen rather than felt, And to baseball players, poetry
is baseball that is felt rather than seen. That comes
from the great Leonardo back in the day, one of
the earliest baseball fans. But again talking about the game
itself and the fact that of baseball, to me is

(49:50):
an art form. But if you're sitting in the stands,
if you're a fan, you see it, but you don't
necessarily feel it as much the game itself. But as
a player, poetry is baseball, and it's all about feel
as far as I'm concerned, rather than just.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
Looking at it.

Speaker 3 (50:05):
And that's where I think sometimes the way it's explained today,
the way it's manipulated or taught today, you have to
understand it. This game is about feel, and it's about
taking lobs of information and simplifying it, doing simple better
to the most minute detail, maybe one nugget, one thought
to hold on to two nuggets, very difficult to do.

(50:25):
When you're at the point of doing something highly complicated,
you need to make it look simple. Feel is the
primary component, and feel is the gift of experience. So
I read that quote, da Vinci's being so prescient that
he thought this up in the fourteen to fifteen hundreds
and describing the game of baseball.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
I mean, that's one thing I love about this podcast.
I learned something new every time. I had no idea
that Leo is such a baseball fan.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
Big baseball fan, you got baseball started born in fourteen
fifty two, died fifteen something. I can remember the last
part of it. But yeah, I've always been a fan,
and now.

Speaker 4 (50:56):
I'm even a bigger fan of mister da Vinci.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Great job. We'll see you next time, Joe.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
All right, brother, be well, thank you.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
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