The Book of Joe: Struggling bats, Fan Interference, and October Power!

Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci begin with the Cubs addressing the struggles of Kyle Tucker.  Joe talks about the approach a manager takes when handling a talented player in a rough spot.  Tom notes the Yankees and Aaron Judge getting on the same page regarding injuries.  Can there be fan interference without the fan actually touching the ball?  Home run ratios increased during the last postseason, so which teams could that help or hurt this October? Plus, how much concern do you have for the Astros?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there and welcome back to the Book.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of course
Joe Maddon.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Joe, how are you doing today.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
I'm doing well. Tommy.

Speaker 4 (00:25):
Just got back from a Tunnel to Towers event in Chicago,
more specifically Saint Charles, which is almost like driving to Iowa,
which you leave Chicago. But anyway, great little town, great
golf course, wonderful, wonderful event. These are so stirring emotionally.
After the event, you have a little bit of a dinner.
Everything's kept on time, but there's a couple speeches made

(00:47):
and it's a very emotional time. So these people do
a wonderful job Tunnel to Towers while the Joiner kind
of spearheads the whole thing Whilelye and I go way back.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Of course you did sun him in nineteen eighty three.
I think it was.

Speaker 4 (00:59):
Anyhow, great event, good times. It just got back last night.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, great cause and they do such a great job.
And speaking of Chicago, Joe, I wanted to start this
week with the story of Kyle Tucker and the Chicago
Cubs and when is the right time to sit down.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Not just a player, but a superstar player.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
I mean, in the last five years, Kyle Tucker has
a war exceeded only by six other players. I mean,
he is an elite player in the game, but he's
been going so bad that Craig Counsel felt like he
had to sit him down. And as he mentioned, yes,
it's physical, there's some mechanical things going on, but it's
also mental. You know, you look at Kyle Tucker play

(01:41):
and normally he's very even keeled. You know, he's slamming
his bat, he's slamming his helmet. There was a ground
ball the other day he didn't bother running out. It
was hugging the first base line and he just didn't
run it out. Really at a frustration, So Craig Council
decides when the team is going up against the first
place Brewers, that's when he's going to sit Kyle Tucker
for what he called a reset. I want to get

(02:03):
into what's wrong with Tucker the first year. I want
to ask you about when a manager makes that call.
Clearly he's reading some bad body language. In addition to
the physical side of the game, the time when a
manager says, you know, what he or a guy middle
of the order hitter, but we need to give you
a break.

Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, that's that's ongoing. Obviously, that's been building. First of all,
Kyle Tucker's one of my favorite players in the game.
Talked about it at the beginning of the year. I said,
I take him over Soto. And I know Soto's having
a great year and Kyle's not, But I still love
this guy and he is all of that. Who knows
to what extent that maybe more day games, maybe the
Chicago vibe, whatever it might be, just pressing because of money,

(02:42):
possibilities next year, all that stuff. But when it comes
down to sitting a guy like this, what would bet
that there's been some conversation being had in advance of
all this. You just don't all of a sudden decide
to do that. The different things you've described not running hard,
they're slamming things down. I mean, does are all You
just asked that guy to come into your office, he said, done.

(03:04):
You have a good chat and find out, really what's
at the crux of what's bothering you?

Speaker 3 (03:08):
Why is this?

Speaker 4 (03:09):
Of course you're not hitting. Of course there's a lot
of things that have snowballed whatever, and now all of
a sudden, you're doing things you normally don't do, and
we just just let's have a conversation about it and
just try to get down to, as they say, nitty
griddy of why this is occurring, and then you make
your choices after that. Yeah, I mean, when a guy
needs a break, doesn't matter who you're playing, where, what

(03:30):
it looks like from the outside in, you just have
to do it. I've often said, and last week we
talked about September has its own energy. The other part
of it is when a guy runs out of gas.
That's why it's so important to give breaks or days
off in advance, I believe in today's world of professional sports,
because when somebody runs out of fuel, there's no fuel
stations along the line in a Major League baseball season.

(03:50):
That's why very I'm very, very much aware of the
fuel gauge on all these guys. Maybe he's a little
bit more fatigued normal, who knows, But there's a reason
this guy is that good. He's still one of my favorites.
He's going to come back, he's going to be great,
He's going to show up. But for right now, if
that's what Great Filthy had to do. I understand that,
but I'm certain it was conversation in events of this.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Move Kyle Tucker.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
It gets a lot of attention, but I have no
problem with these kind of moves, Joe, and I'm with
you in terms of where you're at in the schedule.
That's incidental to what you must do with a player.
It just happened to be that they're playing the Brewers.
You're not going to ride through this slump here and say, oh,
well wait till you play a lesser team to give
you time off. No, I think time is now to
do it. And the other thing, Joe is you know

(04:36):
a lot of times these things work out for the better.
I know a lot of times this enables the player
to go work in a cage and work on some
fundamental things without having to worry about game results, right,
and just kind of take that pressure off. I'm not
sure if you told Kyle Tucker to just completely shut
it down. And I know sometimes that happens is you're

(04:56):
physically exhausted. They don't even want you to put spikes on,
stay out of the cage, whatever. I think this is
really a chance to work on his setup and swing.
You know, listen, last year they did this with PCA.
They gave him a couple of days off. Pete crow Er,
I'm strong in Kansas City, Dustin Kelly, the hitting coach,
worked on some drills, get on that back leg, a
couple of days off. He came back rare and he's

(05:17):
been a different hitter since. Michael Harris the second Brian
Stinker gave him a day off.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
He was really really scuffling.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
He made the adjustment to get his hands back up
high where they were originally before he got to the
big leagues. He's been on fire since then.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
And years ago.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
I saw Kevin Long do that with Curtis Granderson, keep
him out of the lineup for two days, get in
the cage, work.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
On some things.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
And usually when you work on some major things, that's
what you do. You give a day or two to
work on some things and let them take root.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
And that's what I see with Kyle Tucker.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
I mean, I look at what he's doing, Joe, and
just going back to July first, this is the worst
thirty eight game stretch of his career. Lowest ops, it's
under six hundred. He's never struggled like this. There's one
home run in this stretch. There's twenty six rollover.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Ground balls to the right side.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
One out of every five balls he's putting in play
is a rollover ground ball to the right side. He
has not had a hit to the left center field
gap in this entire time. One pole side home run.
You know, Kyle jumped to another level as a hit
or in my book, when he really learned how to
get the ball in the air to the pole side.
He's a guy who came up, he had a closed stance,

(06:25):
closed stride, and he basically went to a neutral setup,
opened up that front hip and get the backside through.
And he's just been He's like Sean Green to me,
making that adjustment. Well, now, for whatever reason, he is
getting on top of the baseball. What I did notice
with his swing, and I did a breakdown on this
if you want to check it out on YouTube, where
he has a steeper attack angle to the baseball. We

(06:47):
can measure these things now, but you can also see
it as well where he's getting the top of the baseball.
As Council told me, he's not as connected in his swing.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
And if you look at his swing his hands.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Are working a little farther away from his core than
they were in the past. That's going to make the
swing longer, it's going to make it slower. So there
are some mechanical things going on here. I wouldn't say,
Joe that they're really major. I don't think this is
an overhaul the way Kevin Long did with Curtis Granderson.
I mean, he's Kyle's been such a great hitter, you're
not going to overhaul him anyway. But I think these subtle,

(07:20):
minor swing changes for Kyle Tucker. I think he's going
to get back quickly, and you know, if it takes
another day, you know that's up to Tucker and Craig Counsel.
But I don't think this is a big deal that
he's sitting down. I think it's just a little hiccup here.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
And I expect that.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
I don't think it has anything to do with impending
free agency. If you know Kyle Tucker at all, man,
this guy is he's as steady as she goes up
until this thirty eight game stretch. I don't think that's
weighing out of his mind at all. I just think
he's at this point he's lost the ability to get
the ball in the air to pull side, and I
think some mechanical tweaks he gets that back.

Speaker 4 (07:55):
And even though that's what you're seeking, the ball in
the air to the pull side. In that ballpark there,
you look at the numbers on the wall and you
think it's kind of short, But it's when that win
blowing in, it's different.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
It's completely different ballpark. It's actually huge.

Speaker 4 (08:07):
To what extent the wind's been blowing in this show,
I don't know, And to what extent that's had any
kind of mental effect on him, I don't know. And
you also said his hands are farther away from his body,
which again then to me that really normally would be
what you would do to really try to get somebody
to pull the ball.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
Maybe it needs to bring him in.

Speaker 4 (08:22):
When you bring your hands closer to your body, it's
easier to stay inside the ball and maybe just start
playing for singles up the middle. That's how you get
back to solid contact. Again, I don't know. I'm not
with the guy, but I believe in him. I think
he's that good. He kills lefties. Also, for whatever reason,
it's not working right now. You know, elementally the playing
outside at Wrigley all the time can be It can

(08:42):
be mentally difficult.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Ask any of these guys.

Speaker 4 (08:46):
You show up at the ballpark and those flags are
just flapping straight in your face, and it does. It's
like hitting off, you know, a long part four with
the wind barreling down right right in your chops, and
all of a sudden your mindset is different. So who
knows why all these little different things are occurring. I'm
sure it's a be an accumulation of a lot of
different smaller things that have become rather large at the moment.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
So agreed, set him down, reassessed.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
It's not like reinventing the wheel with the guy like this,
it's trying to get back to what he had been
doing more than anything that's normally how this thing works out.
You bring somebody like this in the cage to work
with this guy, I'm looking at video about what he
had done in the past and trying to replicate that
more than trying to give him anything new. The other
part would be drills. I like field drills, drills that

(09:32):
I would set up specifically based on what seems to
be the issue right here, and just try to get
him feeling the components of the swing that had been
that's kind of escaping him right now.

Speaker 3 (09:42):
So I'm a big believer on that.

Speaker 4 (09:45):
And more than anything, success for a major league player
is normally controlled in the mind over the body. So
what are you thinking? What is your game plan? What
is your approach right now? What are you trying to do?
That would be the first thing I would really research.
It's like we're in the batter's box. Is that all
the same?

Speaker 3 (10:00):
Good? What does the grip look like? Not unlike a
golf How does that look? It's good?

Speaker 4 (10:05):
If footwear's my front foot landing good. You start from
the feet, work your way up, you look at results
in your work backwards. That's all you're That's why I
would approach this whole thing. But don't expect a dramatically
a different looking hitter. That's the worst thing you could
possibly do. They'll give him a lot of new stuff
to hold on to try to bring back what had
been successful in the past.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
And meanwhile, talking about managers and how they handle their players,
Aaron Boone mentioned yesterday that that Aaron Judge, remember he's
coming off the il with that flexer strain injury, will
not be throwing normally at all this year, and that
caught Aaron Judge off guard. He's basically said, you know what,
he hasn't even seen me throwing these last two weeks.

(10:42):
I don't know why he said that. I think I
know why he said that, Joe. I mean, they're really
worried that there's one throw where Aaron Judge has to
cut it loose and he can blow that thing out.
You know, flex restrains. They just don't go away very quickly.
I mean, you can manage it, but I do think
there's this fear that they put Judge in right field
and the competitiveness of the game takes over and then.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
You blow out.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yankees obviously cannot afford that to happen, So they're going
to proceed cautiously here with Judge as they should continue
to run John Carlos Stanton out there in right field,
not on an everyday basis, but often and hope that
he holds up. We know they're just a monster team
when they're both in the lineup, so you try to
get that happening as much as possible.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
Not sure if Judge is going to.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Play the outfield at all against Boston this weekend. It
doesn't sound like he will. I think they'll proceed slowly.
But in the meantime, Aaron Judge just joined Babe Ruth,
Lou Garrig and Mickey Mantle as the only Yankees to
go four by forty four seasons or more with forty
or more home runs. It's the franchise, you protect him.

(11:48):
I would do the same thing the Yankees are doing, Joe.
I would keep playing like this with Judges the DH,
let him go through his throwing progressions, and do not
risk anything major for a long time here until you're
absolutely sure.

Speaker 4 (12:02):
That's no question. You just you slow play that one completely.
We talked about this, I think previously, and my perspective
is that if in fact you think you could even
go out there, I would really make adaptations so that
the throws aren't as long.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
I would really really.

Speaker 4 (12:17):
Try to drill down into him and to not throw
the ball at Max's ability at any particular time. Again,
just get the ball into the relay guy, get your
second basement out there. Chistlm's got a good arm, Get
him out there fast, get him out there in position.
Train him to do that every stink in time, even
to the point, like I just say he's going to
the right center field gap. Just say, and the center

(12:37):
fielder's coming by. Just flipped the ball the centerfielder and
have him throw the ball in harder. I know this
is like antithetical to an athlete like judge, but in
order to keep him in a lineup, I think these
are considerations Number one. Number two. These plays I'm describing
don't happen as often as you think. So it's not
like he's gonna go out there and he's gonna make
ten throws at night. No, there might be one or

(12:58):
two significant moments, and you have to really just drill
it down and practice. Are we going to do this
in this particular time in order to keep the integrity
of the lineup if you want standing out there often.
I know they're getting away with so far, but I
know he had to take a couple of days off
because he was too sore.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
They're hitting home runs like crazy in Tampa. I get it.
But that's just one moment in time.

Speaker 4 (13:18):
So I would be creative right now, I would be creative.
I would start implementing all these thoughts. I've put these
thoughts in guys heads. I know they're going to probably
balk at it in the beginning, But then again, they're
wearing pink shoes and peak elbow pass now, so why
can't you do something like this?

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Hey, speaking of the Red Sox, Joe, I got to
ask you a question about coaching third base. Red Sox
had a frustrating game on Tuesday night. I think they
want zero for thirteen runers in scoring position. They had
a ton of it bats with the bases loaded, never
cashed in. Down one run in the eleventh inning, there
is a potential sacrifice fly to tie the game. Flyball

(13:55):
medium to shallow center field. Colton Kowser, who's got a
really good arm, is out there for Baltimore, and the
runner on third is Nate Eaton, who's very he's in
the ninety fifth percentile and speed, and the third base
coach Kyle Hudson. You know, based off the scouting reports,
the depth of the fly ball decides we're not going
to run here, and they don't run. Now, listen to

(14:15):
throw wound up offline. There's no way of knowing that
that's going to happen, right, You're just basing your decision
on depth in the outfielder's arm. But how much of
that Joe should be a third base coach's call, and
how much is that is the base runner saying I
can get this or I can't get this. I always
find this interesting. I would trust the veteran base runner

(14:36):
or do you just go with whatever the coach tells you.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
It's not only a coach situation. That's how that's how
you work at det say train for it. First of all,
how many outswhere? There's zero or went out?

Speaker 2 (14:44):
There was one out with Alex Bregman on deck, and
Alex Bregman popped up to end the game right now,
went out.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
Went out. It's a different play.

Speaker 4 (14:51):
When out I send them, When out I send them
zero outs, they don't send them. I think you have
That's part of it. Also, you have to put that
in the equation mentally regarding whether we're going to send
him or not. But one thing that we did try
to train for when this is something brought up analytically
when I was with the Cubs. That tweet or fly ball,
that flyball that you just don't know. It's really no

(15:12):
man's land, and it's a very difficult decision for both
the base runner and the third base coach. Zero went out,
that would be what it comes down to is, of
course they're outs. I ain't sending him, especially with Bregman
on deck went out, I'm going to take that chance.
I'm going to take that opportunity to score the run
without having seen it specifically, how deep the ball was,
magicing an outfielder's drifting maybe to his ride or his

(15:32):
left kind of towards the infield a little bit. That's
in my mind's eye. So with one out he goes
zero out, I do not send.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Him, and the runner can't freelance in that situation you
don't want you're even a hobby Bayez or a veteran
good base runner, you would not allow the opportunity to say,
you know, I know you think I shouldn't go, but
I think I can make it, and I'm going.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
Well, there's a couple. I mean, you're if you're going
to talk about hobby, that would be different. But normally
what occurs is the ball is hit, runner goes backs
and tags up third base. Coach gets close to him
enough and you'll see him put his hands over his
mouth like a funnel to try to direct the sound
right towards the runner and he's yelling go go go
or no, no, no, or don't, don't whatever their their
burbage is, that's what's being yelled at that particular time. Now,

(16:15):
I'm even saying a guy like Covey, if you see,
if he hears no, but see something he likes, he's
still going to go.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
He's still going to go. I've seen that happen.

Speaker 4 (16:22):
But I would say ninety percent of the time, maybe
you higher whatever that third base coach is yelling at
that runners, what's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
You just reminded me of a great play in the
seventy five Classic World Series game Red Sox and Reds
And I think Zim was a third base coach where
Doyle got thrown out of the plate on a short
fly ball down the line that George Foster threw home.
And I'm pretty sure it was Zim. The third base
coach was yelling no, no, no, and Doyle thought he was.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Saying go go, go go right, yeah, and got thrown out.
That was a huge point in that game.

Speaker 4 (16:52):
That's why you have to really that's why I kind
of like stopped a little bit there. You really have
to be clear and this is the things you work on,
you work on in spring training. These are the kind
of things to me, this is where like the pre
meeting is important to go over signs.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
I mean the one thing I hate it. I mean
I would.

Speaker 4 (17:09):
I'm pretty mellow, easy going during the course of a game,
but if you're missing signs, I'm not.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
That is when I really get upset.

Speaker 4 (17:16):
Like Zim said, if if they're not getting signs, then
you're not managing. Zim used to say that to me
all the time. And I've had every every stop I've made,
you know, the guys that can't get signs and who
cannot get signs and you're talking about a verbal right there.
I'm talking about actual touches from the third base coach whatever.
And I would actually have them dumb it down. As

(17:37):
an example, when I worked for the Angels, Bobby Kinnop
taught me because I had guys that they get on base,
whether it's Tony Phillips, Spike going whatever, they get all
you know, they're wide eyed and they're just so excited.
If they looked at me and they could not see
my thumb, they're not going. If they could see my thumb.
On either hand, they're going, so that was the thing
they would They would just look to me, even at
second base if they're not going. In a situation, I

(17:59):
put my hands behind my back so Tony could not
see my hands at all, or I just put them
on my so that you can see my thumbs. Even
from second base, you can give a sign like that.
So there's all of this going on too. If these guys, gosh,
it's so frustrating. But overall, there's not that many signs
put on anymore. Although I saw any game yesterday with Cincinnati.
They had runners running that the other cruise running twice

(18:23):
at first base, and he scored on singles twice yesterday
on perfectly placed fly balls into the outfield, kind of
like a modified hit and runner run and hit. Anyhow,
I'm getting off the topic, but there's the verbal run
around second base. They got to be able to yell,
and you have to be able to differentiate between yes
and no go or not go.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yes, that's correct.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
That is one of the very cool things about this podcast.
I can bring up all these game situations and Joe,
you can go back into your rolodex and you figure
out the history of it, the reasons behind it. But
I'm going to bring up something in our next chat
here that I'm not sure even Joe Madden has seen.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
On a baseball field that happened this week.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
We're going to dive into that and we're gonna ask
the question, what really does win in October. We'll do
that right after this on the Book of Joe.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe and Joe.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
This happened in San Diego where there was fan interference
in which the fan did not touch the ball. This
was a fly ball hit I think was Xander Bogart's.
Elliott Ramos of the Giants goes back to the wall,
jumps it goes off his glove into the stands rule
the home run, but upon review it is determined it's

(19:46):
an out. The Giants are giving the out runner is
off the board because the fan interfered with Ramos's ability
to catch the ball. Now Mike Shild goes out there.
He argues, I mean you almost have to as a manager,
right you had a run taken off the board in
front of your home crowd and he gets thrown out
of the game.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
But I think they got this right, Joe.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
There's nothing in the rule book that says that a
fan has to make contact with either the player or
the baseball. The key here is did the fan reach
into the field and the play to prevent or distract
or harm the fielder's ability to make the play. And
the answer here is yes, that the fan did reach

(20:25):
over it. If that ball is in the stands, all
bets are off. As a fielder, you know, you just
have to deal with it. But once that fan reached
over the fence and his arms looked like they were
in the eye line of Ramos as he's reaching for
the ball, I think by the letter of the rule,
the umpires got it right that it was fan interference.

(20:48):
I'm not sure if you've seen that before, Joe, or
what your opinion was on that, but that was the
first time I've seen it called where there was zero contact.

Speaker 4 (20:56):
First of all, this this is why I've always felt
there should be a camera shooting on each fou pole
along the fence line to determine exs exactly what we're
talking about. Right there, I think that's where it should begin.
Like you just kind of insinuated from the angles.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
I saw this.

Speaker 4 (21:11):
Play, by the way, I watched video in the morning
and I happened to see this one, and I understand
what you're saying. It almost looked like the hands may
have interfered with the vision the sideline of the outfield,
but I couldn't say that for sure based on the angle.
That was my only concern of I could not tell
you that for certain. So you know you're taking a
home run away based on the fact that you think

(21:32):
that there was interference based on the hands coming out
and that the outfielder would have caught it. I mean,
you don't know that the alphare would have caught it regardless.
We just don't know that. So that's where this gray
area does exist for me. With a definitive camera angle
along the outfield fence line and seeing an absolute reach over,
I can understand that. But if this glove went out

(21:52):
was over the fence actually and the guys reaching out,
the fans reaching out, and his hands really aren't extending
all the way over, then I think that's a different play.
So yeah, listen, I would have gotten kicked out. There's
no question out of argetting more vehemently than Shilty did
all this stuff.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
And I know the empires on the field that had
nothing to do with it. I get it.

Speaker 4 (22:09):
They actually made the call in favor of San Diego
before it was overturned. So yeah, this is one of
those things I think you can be middy you talk
about tech. This is where technology, to me, really has
a chance to be very useful. You know the way
the price of cameras these days not very expensive, but
I would start right there. I think that really screams
to have cameras in place to determine.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
And it's not over the entire ballpark.

Speaker 4 (22:31):
There's parts of the outfield where there's no fans that
it's impossible to reach over. And Chicago's got it right
with the basket. Man, You can't the fans can't reach
over the basket.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
You know.

Speaker 4 (22:41):
I've always thought that should have been put in play
in Anaheim with.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
The high wall. Anyhow, long long answer.

Speaker 4 (22:46):
I get what you're saying, but I can't say for
sure that there was interference based on the angle that
I saw.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
I love the basket in Chicago, and I know you
do too, because that gave Hobby Baiaz his home run
against the Giants.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
And maybe one nothing game.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
A lot of fans might be asking why the heck
is that basket there? Because that is the only place
in Major League Baseball where you can hit a ball
that doesn't leave the park and it's a home run automatically.
That dates back to the bleacher bums, which became a
thing at Wrigley in sixty eight and sixty nine, where
it became a cool thing to hang out there in

(23:21):
the bleachers and watch the game. And they used to
put their beverages on the top of the wall, and
sometimes the beverages would fall over, and sometimes the people
who were drinking the beverages fell over. And they got
tired of things falling on the field, so they literally
put that basket in to keep beverages and people from
falling onto the field.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
And it's one of the great quirks of that ballpark.
I know you enjoy it.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
I mean, there's nothing to not like about Wrigley Field,
all that stuff, even the ivy. You'd get frustrated when
the ball would go on the ivy. You know your
running would score, but all of a sudden, it's a
ground roll double. The guy's got to go back.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
To third base.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
You live with it, right the basket, it just barely
crawls into that basket. Works for you. Sometimes against you.
The win is absolutely it's just steaming right into your face.
The flag is just like starts towards own plate.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Live with it.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
There's nothing you can do about it. The fans on
a nightly basis is a frat party. I felt like
I was in Zata said. Every night you show at
a ballpark there, it's like a big old frat party.
There's nothing like it. There's nothing like it. There's no
venue anywhere like it. And on top of that, the
Cubs have done a wonderful job of recreating this old
into the new. It's a retro, it's a resto mode.
It's an old fifty six spell air brought back to

(24:33):
life with all the modern conveniences, with great air conditioning,
a great stereo system three P fifty with fill Injackson,
great disc brakes, et cetera. They've done all that For
those that have never attended a game at Wrigley Field,
that should be on your baseball bucket list because there's
nothing like it.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
I asked the question before Joe, what wins in October? Listen,
we all like to believe, and we do believe, that
it's small ball. It's putting the ball in play, it's
running the bases, it's catching the ball when it's hit.
All the things the Milwaukee Brewers do really well, right,
so they look like a good postseason team. I'm here
to tell you that's not as true as it used
to be. I'm not saying it's not true. What I'm

(25:10):
saying is to win in October these days, and I'm
talking the last five years, you have to hit the
ball out of the ballpark. And I say that because
I'm gonna give you the Major League, not league, the
Major League ranks for the last five World champions.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
First, third, fourth, third, third.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Now going to give you where they ranked in strikeouts
Imajor League Baseball second, seventeenth, twelfth. I should start with four, four, twenty, second, seventeen,
and twelve. The correlation between hitting home runs and winning
World Series much higher in today's game than it is

(25:49):
in terms of strikeouts. Let me give you another number here.
We know that you get to the postseason, you're going
to see better pitching. Batting average is going to go down,
slugging is going to go down. That was true last year.
What probably surprises you is that the rate of home
runs per game in the postseason last year was higher
than it was in the regular season. Think about that

(26:12):
the home run rate went up in the postseason last year.
Here's my theory that hits are so much more difficult
to come by, which means rallies are so much difficult
to come by. You must have the ability to change
the game with a swing or two at some point,
and if you get somebody on base, those are really
game changers. This is I think of what the Brewers

(26:33):
and especially the Padres are facing. No team has won
the World Series finishing in the back half of home
runs in Major League Baseball since the twenty fifteen Kansas
City Royals.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
That's a decade.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Now.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
Do I want to believe the Brewers and Padres could
win the World Series? I do believe that. I do
believe they can.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
I'm giving these numbers because that's the way the game is.
But we all know what percentages mean. You know that
it's a likelihood that probably power wins, but that doesn't
mean absolutely it wins. And I love the way Milwaukee
Brewers play baseball. Padres are just a fun team to
watch with their bullpen. But I'm telling you, Joe, you

(27:12):
have to rethink the way we think of October, because
I think in today's game, you do need power, and
I think that's the one thing that could.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
Hold back Milwaukee and San Diego.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Baseball purists don't want to hear it, but I do
think the game is so power dependent.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
It actually is almost more important in October.

Speaker 4 (27:32):
I want it all. I want it all. I'm sorry.
I want guys who hit the ball of the ballpark.
I want guys to put it in play. You have
to have different skill sets in different parts of the lineup.
I want it all. So just going back, I mean,
the analytics has really contributed to a lot of this.

Speaker 3 (27:45):
I mean, I know you did great research. I'd be curious.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
You know, let's just say previous to twenty fifteen, for me,
the analytics really came on board. I don't know twenty
twenty fifteen fourteen, that's when it really got heavy. But
even before that, i'd say, like with the rays we
started in two thousand and six to fifteen, it started
to build up. But I you know, that's the way
the teams are built to do those things. So I
think that's part of it. Because the teams have not

(28:09):
been built on contact, they have not been nurtured to
do that. They've only been nurtured to not worry about
striking out hitting the ball out of the ballpark. So
if that's how your team is built, and of course
that should be the result regarding who winsor doesn't what
I would think. So Kansas City being the last team
to do it, they were built that way and they
also had that magnificent bullpen too.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
I just I don't know.

Speaker 4 (28:30):
I don't know if it's just the residue of architects.
I mean, this is how we're going to build our team.
These are the ingredients we want to have, and thus
that's going to win that. That would just be the
way it plays. Whereas analytics may change. And I'm curious
because analytics is a fluid science. Whatever it's not static
or they're same, there's always going to be adaptations made

(28:51):
based on.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
The souper desure what's going on.

Speaker 4 (28:54):
Well, because analytics are basically the group whomever's in charge
the analytical department, there are cocktails. They apply more weight
to this or that, and eventually they've build out this
this model with all these matrices and the matrix season
and they this is who we are, this is what
we think, this is what we feel this that we're
gonna play the game. That's That's basically what it comes

(29:14):
down to. So there could be like a paradigm shift
analytically with all of this, if in fact, the Brewers
do win this year and just say another team jumps
on the board, and all of a sudden you see
more of that next year.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
So I think it.

Speaker 4 (29:28):
Is this way because everybody's working off the same sheet
of music. Everybody believes the same thing. There's only one
religion anymore, there's no there's no variety in religion. There's
no there's no variety in what's being taught in school.
The core curriculum is this. There's no more liberal arts.
It is this. This is we're gonna teach you this way.
You believe God, to believe in this, how we're gonna

(29:48):
do it. So before there was a variety of different
subjects being taught in school, but right now there is
not there. There's power pitching, there's power hitting defense. We
like it, but if it's not there, that's okay. I'd
rather an offensive player be there.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
Anyway.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
There's all of these absolutes being based on analytical departments
which really mirror one another. So long answer once again,
but this is what I think. So I want to
see the Brewers when this year. I do for the
reason you're just talking about, and it's the purity the
baseball purist to me, you know, I concede to that absolutely,
But once it does occur, and hopefully it does, and

(30:25):
it hopes a bad method to base any kind of
an opinion on, but I'd like to see it occur,
just to try to balance this whole thing out.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
But that's what I think.

Speaker 4 (30:32):
I think it's analytical departments have swayed the way teams
are built.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
Thus this is what you're getting.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
I think that's a great point, Joe.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
And like you, I you know, I really enjoy watching
Milwaukee play baseball, and I do think if they are
rewarded with a World Series championship, I do think it
will force some teams and some you know, player ops
presidents to lean in that direction of the way the
Brewers play baseball. I mean, that's what you need, right

(30:59):
it is. I don't want to say it's a copycat league.
It's not, but I think the the game has gone
with the power. They're seeing that being rewarded in terms
of the postseason.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Last year.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
For instance, the percentage of games one without a home
run was actually lower in the postseason than it was
in the regular season. Only nine postseason games out of
forty three last year were one without a home run.
But I will say this about Milwaukee, Joe. They can
win a game with their base running, and they have
many ways to win a game. But and they have
more power than you think. I'm not trying to sell

(31:30):
them short like they're the fifteen Royals.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
They're eighteenth in home runs. It's not terrible, but the
way they run the.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Bases, there is a reason why they have by far
the most unearned runs that they've scored this year. Right,
they're always pressuring the other team, and it's interesting Willi
Adamas And by the way, I think the Giants talking
about the Giants, they've doubled down on guys like Adamas
and Rafael Devers in that ballpark, I think they're.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Going in the wrong direction, Joe.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
You know, I think they need more Milwaukee Brewers type
players in that ballpark. But anyway, they asked Willia Damas about,
you know, going back to Milwaukee this weekend, what it
is about the Brewers where they're on this You know
they're the best team in baseball, and he said in
one word, base running. I thought that was really really
interesting that Adamis brought that up and he knows the

(32:17):
culture there, obviously spending many years there. I'm going to
give you the five best base running teams in baseball, Joe,
and this is according to stat Cast. Brewers are number one.
That's not a surprise. Number two is the New York Mets,
three Boston Red Sox, four Detroit Tigers, and five Arizona Diamondbacks. Obviously,

(32:40):
all but the Diamondbacks are in playoff position at this point. Now,
I'm going to give you the bottom five base running
Baltimore Orioles, Minnesota Twins, Colorado Rockies, San Francisco Giants, and
Pittsburgh Pirates, all out of it non contenders. Three of
the five fired their managers this year. That's not a

(33:04):
surprise to me, Joe. That we talk a lot about
home runs, but I know base running near and dear
to your heart. It has a lot to do with
how well a team plays. And give credit to the Mets,
who to me, don't have a lot of team speed.
They're very successful on there stolen base attempts when they
do run, and they make really good decisions.

Speaker 4 (33:22):
On the basis team speed is not the main ingredient
to being a good base running team, not at all.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
You just made me.

Speaker 4 (33:27):
You know, my flashback brain is going all over the place.
Every Arizona Instruction League, everyone I was in charge of,
which started I think in nineteen eighty four with the
Angels at Genauntry Park, Geenuntry Field. I sit them down
on the right field line of field number two and
everybody'd be sitting there, including pictures. But when he got
to the emphasis for the position players, I told him,

(33:47):
for every one of you guys sitting down here, the
number one emphasis for all of you guys right here
at this camp is base running. That's the number one emphasis. Eventually,
Whitey Herzaw came into existence with the Angels for a
brief period of time, and Whitey was all over it too.
But that was the thing we did. We emphasized base running.
We had meetings before every game every day on the
right field line of field number three, and we'd have

(34:11):
Frank Weeberger go up and down inspect their shoes, make
sure their shoes were clean. But then I would do
the positive and negatives from the previous day and would
always center. I would always make sure that I would
point out both the positive and negative components of are
base running the previous day. You applay so much pressure
to the other team mentally, the preparation before the game begins,

(34:32):
before the series begin is really heavy. When you do that,
and all of a sudden, they're going to start making
mistakes because they are in a hurry. Based on your
base running acumen and the fact that you're going to
push it.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
This stuff doesn't just happen.

Speaker 4 (34:44):
You have to have really good base running instructors, and
you have to really philosophically let the guys know, what
are we all about here?

Speaker 3 (34:51):
We were about going first. We're about heart.

Speaker 4 (34:53):
Running hard to first base respect ninety heart cuts it
first base, not turns. We wanted at the inside of
the bag. We wanted to snap our head, gut ourselves
going to that next directions as we possibly can. It
was never a single. It was always a double to
the outfielder. Made it a single and you're on second base.
I wanted them to run through third base expecting to
go and not expecting to stop.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
Things like this.

Speaker 4 (35:14):
First to third was the ruler that was the king,
that was the reason you're on first base is to
get the third base. And finally, we wanted to get
the third base with less two out, less than two
outs as often as possible. I don't know how many
times I said that to the guys, so that we
could score.

Speaker 3 (35:29):
On and out.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
All these things have to be highlighted to really get
your guys to get to the point where they're going
to be such a pain in the butt to the
other side. Next point on that enugh tenant you just
had said earlier about the power, is it easier? Isn't
it easier to buy contact over buying power, or is
it easier to buy power over contact? In other words,
if I'm a team that doesn't have this huge payroll,
why I'm out there trying to buy power all the

(35:52):
time when I don't have the money to buy power.
If I could somehow acquire it through the free agency,
or once in a while maybe actually trade for one
of those guys which people just don't give up, it
easier to accumulate contact overpower. These are the things that
I've often thought about, and I told theo Epstein with
the Cubbies, I don't know there was like a bunch.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Like even at one point forty draft choices.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
I think in the draft that says, why not between
thirty and forty, just pick guys that could really really run.
I mean, have our scouts just really zero in on
like all the old Kansas City Royals Academy premise of athletes.
Just get guys that could run. For ten picks that Gore.
We picked up Terrence Score, I had Quentin Barry. We
always picked up somebody when it comes to the playoffs,

(36:36):
a guy that you know to pinch run for your
catch or whatever, that could absolutely steal a bag and
what that meant to late inning rallies. It's still it's important.
But I kudos to the groups that understand that and
to those that do not. They need to hire a
really good base running department and coaching staff because you
could teach anybody to run the base as well.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
They don't have to be fast.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
A couple of really good points you made there, Joe One.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
I do believe you're absolutely right that base running must
be emphasized, really be done well. You cannot take it
for granted that players are just going to do it
on their own. You have to make that part of
your culture. Pat Murphy does that Milwaukee as well as anybody.
And you're right that power is more expensive to obtain.
It's harder to obtain, and it's more expensive to obtain.

(37:19):
So some of these other teams should be doubling down
on contact more than trying to find power. I mean,
you got to explain to me how the Angels, the
Rockies and the Pirates are among the seven teams in
baseball who strike out the most. That shouldn't happen. I mean,
I'm with you. Those kind of markets, those kinds of

(37:41):
teams should be emphasizing putting the ball in play. And
obviously everybody should be emphasizing base running.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
I mean, you watch games every night, Joe.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Base running is one of those things that'll make you
scratch your head for.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
One one more point.

Speaker 4 (37:54):
Money gards the base running in spring training and in
spring and in practice and actual structuring and in spring training,
the first thing I want it done every day with
every team was base running. We've felt whatever you put
at the beginning of practice really hits home with the group.
This is my god, We're doing this the first thing
every day. They must think this is important. We got

(38:15):
to the point where we actually had a warm up
on the basis as opposed to you know, standing on
a line or getting in a group circle whatever. We
had a Monday Wednesday, No, Monday, Thursday, Tuesday, Friday, Wednesday, Saturday,
moving warm up on the basis. I had it for
every minor league team. They had this specific warm up

(38:36):
to go through, and it happened on the basis, so
that while you're actually being stretched and getting ready for
the game, you're actually practicing base running skills. So part
of it would be just after you did a couple
of scretches, you get at first base, take your primary
secondary lead. Now we're going to go first to third
with a good cut at second base as an example,
So this is great. I had Kevin McNair base running instructor.

(38:58):
He was an old yeah, track and field guy at Stanford.
We had him and Kevin came in and gave us
all this different stuff to work with. In the mid eighties,
people talk about being ahead of our time.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
We absolutely were. But then we took it into Like
I said, we did this.

Speaker 4 (39:15):
Day every day, and I go into towns and can
we back off on this?

Speaker 3 (39:20):
No, We're not backing off on this. Because it's not
easy to do that.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
Every day, you try to create habits in the minor
league so that when they get to the big leagues
or as.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
They move up the ladder, it's like anything else.

Speaker 4 (39:31):
Stretching on a daily basis, lifting weights a couple three
days a week, going for a walk, whatever, riding your bike,
creating a habit. This creates the habit. So I always
felt that if you've created good habits with minor leaguers
early on, eventually they're going to want to do it
on their own. It's going to become a drug day.
I have to do this kind of a thing. So
that's what we did, and it was really really successful.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
We're going to take a quick break, Joe, and over
this break, I want you to think about a question
that we normally do not ask this time of year,
and that is are you worried about the Houston Astros.
We'll answer that question right after this Welcome back to

(40:17):
the Book of Joe, by the way, and talking about
home runs being the coin of the realm in today's
postseason world, that would bode well for the Yankees, the Dodgers,
and the Mariners. Those are the three teams that that's
the way they play baseball. They may not get a
lot of hits, they may take some strikeouts, but they
change games up and down the lineup.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
We'll see how that plays out.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
And meanwhile, the Houston Astros always seem to be there
down the stretch into October. But watch them play baseball
lately and you're not seeing a whole lot. How about this, Joe,
For their last five games, their losses have been by
scores of seven to nothing, twelve nothing, ten nothing, and
one nothing. I mean, just the remarkable stretch. We know

(41:00):
they've been missing, you're don Alvarez. We know they really
black left handed pop to really balance out that lineup.
But tell me your take here on the American League
West and whether Houston can hold off Seattle, which, by
the way, I look at a lot of these West
Coast teams, Joe. I don't know if this happened to
you at the Angels back in the day, But when

(41:20):
they go on these humidity trips I call them in
August coming back east, they're different teams. That's what's happening
to Seattle, who just killed it on their homestand and
now scuffling on a humidity trip.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Here on the East coast.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
But give me your take on the Astros and if
they can hold off Seattle in the west, well, that's.

Speaker 3 (41:37):
A good point. I mean, I hate it. I shouldn't say, hey,
I didn't like.

Speaker 4 (41:40):
I also loved when we had our opposite coast trips
early in the year as opposed to late in the year,
if you could get that stuff out of the way early,
because it's always difficult to travel that far and even
you're saying humidity in this situation, but just the time
changes beat you up pretty badly. So when you get
that out of the way early that was always beneficial.
As supposed to late in the season could be very devastating.

(42:03):
I've been through that regarding the Astros. I've been watching
this it's like, well, what's going on here? I they
get Korea and all of a sudden, he gets a
couple of hits. I thought things were really going to
start rolling in their favorite and all of a sudden
they're not. And then I watched Seattle, like you suggest that.
I know Phillies are having the best with them right now,
but I like Seattle's vibe right now. Their acquisitions are

(42:23):
among the best, and I still like their pitching staff
a lot. I mean, I see some of these young
guys get beat up a little bit. But when they,
like you said, when they get back home, they're gonna
get all straightened out. I think Seattle can supplant the
Astros right now. I like what they're doing a lot.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
On the other.

Speaker 4 (42:39):
Side, I don't understand the Astro games. Are they at
home a lot? You know, remember a couple of years
ago they had a really hard time at home, but
they've been like they were much better on the road.
Have they been at home with all these losses?

Speaker 2 (42:51):
They're in Detroit now, Okay, okay, that was certainly part
of their problem.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
They ran into trek school boys.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Yeah, that's all. That's never helpful, right.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
But you're right.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
In recent years they've really struggled for some reason at home,
including the postseason, haven't been playing. Now this year they're
doing much better at home thirty eight to seven.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
But in terms of this current trip, they just started
a trip they had lost. Baltimore took care of them
near perfect game on the Friday night, and they go
from Detroit to Baltimore for a four game series and
then go back home for the Rockies, the Angels, and
the Yankees. So yeah, this has happened both home and

(43:32):
road recently. And again they made a trade for Sanchez,
the left handed hitter. Helped the line up a little bit,
but I'd be worried about Houston's ability to score uugh runs.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
Well, obviously it's trending in that direction. You know, Korea
is a nice player, used to be really good. Getting
him back together with the band sound like a good idea.
I don't know that he's going to be that impactful
down the stretch for them, just based on his more
recent history. So yeah, I would be concerned. If I
was them, I would be concerned. And especially with the Mariners,

(44:02):
with their acquisition, the vibe they got going on right now,
I think they're very dangerous.

Speaker 2 (44:07):
Yeah, I'm trying to see the schedule here. I think
they've got a series against Seattle the next to the
last week of the season in Houston and that's it
in terms of head to head matchups. And speaking of
getting the band back together, I'm not sure if you
remember the rocker Dave Edmunds. Does that name mean anything,

(44:27):
Dave Edmonds and rock Pile.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
I know Jimmy Edmonds.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
No relations, okay, Dave Edmunds, British rocker.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
You would love it.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
It's what a lot of people call a great bar band,
which means, you know, great guitar riffs, great hooks, hard
driving guitar.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
Dave Edmonds.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
I bring it up because he had a one solo hit,
I Hear You Knocking, Yeah, yeah, you know that song right,
And then he teamed up with Nick Lowe and a
couple of the guys rock Pile. If you haven't heard them,
you would definitely dig them. Great classic rock and roll sound.
They came out with the other songs. Second the album

(45:09):
was called Seconds of Pleasure, Girls Talk, Queen of Hearts.
I knew the bride when she used to rock and roll.
Good stuff anyway. Dave Edmunds is eighty one years old,
and the other day, not too long ago, his wife
put out a post that claimed that he essentially died
in her arms, and they rushed into the hospital and
they resuscitated him. He's back among the living at eighty

(45:33):
one years old, and he was doing so well. They
did a procedure on his heart. He had a cardiac
arrest where his heart stopped, and they brought him back
to life and they sent him home. So Dave Edmunds
is still with us. But I'm surprised you have not
heard of Rock Pile and Dave Edmunds.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
Joe, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
Before we do our next podcast, that's your homework assignment.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
I wrote it down.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
You gonna go listen to rock Pile's album Seconds of
Pleasure and report back.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
I'm going to do that as well as getting my
voice right.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Oh my god, not like you could cut a rock
album today.

Speaker 4 (46:06):
The travel, the lack of sleep, all that stuff doesn't help.
But I wrote it down. Rock Piles, Sounds of Pleasure.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
I definitely Stor's is a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
I say, Sounds of Pleasure, Seconds of Pleasure. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (46:19):
I can't even understand my own handwriting today, but yeah,
I definitely gonna give it a listen, I promise.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Okay, Well, in the meantime, we've covered a lot of
ground today, Joe, but we always end with some words
of wisdom.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
What do you have to take us home today?

Speaker 3 (46:31):
Clear your throat properly is number one?

Speaker 1 (46:34):
And gargle with salt? Do that anymore? I usually was
that like a go to for your mom and dad.
Gargle with salt? Water sore throat.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
Yeah, just I have this awful, awful voice in the
morning sometimes. Okay, here's my take on this one. Reality
versus fantasy. We're so much into the fantasy component of
baseball right now, which would be the Savannah Bananas. I mean,
everybody is so intrigued by this group, and every place
I go is in Chicago. I'm playing the golf tournament,

(47:04):
people are coming up to me, Hey, have you seen
the Savanna Bananas? They were playing at Kimiski Park great Field.
I think it's rate right or something like that. Anyhow,
it makes me think about that, and also, like a
lot of the new rules that are happening in the
game itself, it seems to me like the bananas have
a lot of influence on what's going on in Major
League Baseball right now, right down to the colors and

(47:25):
the celebrations, and anything's on the table right now is
being acceptable, and I find that fascinating. I was going
into reality versus fantasy, and I got some good stuff
here because reality and fantasy I kind of overlap a lot.
And I found a good quote from a guy by
name of David Borston, and he's an older gentleman and

(47:45):
he's gone. But it just he's trying to set my
mind straight because sometimes I get off track. And he's
born in early nineteen hundreds, et cetera, nineteen fourteen to
two thousand and four. But the American citizen lives in
a world where fantasy is more real than reality. It's
a cultural elevation of illusion over fact. And I think
I'm thinking to myself, Okay, I'm not knowing when this

(48:07):
guy was born.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
This is like what's going on today?

Speaker 4 (48:09):
Then I realized this guy was born in nineteen fourteen
and passed away in two thousand and four. And then
Lewis Carroll, imagination is the only weapon in the war
against reality. H you know, Alice in Wonderland, reality can
be beaten with enough imagination, Mark Twain. So I'm getting
all concerned about all of what I'm seeing around me
where I'm movies today. Superman Kay is a K pop

(48:32):
demon hunters bad guys, to all these fantasy thunderbolts. It's
never we don't even watch Like there's not even movies
that are so compelling that I got to go to
the theater to see these movies anymore. Because it's all
based on fantasy. So I was worried about this and
is it overtaking Is it overtaking our game the fact
that we want we want to be like the Savannah bananas,

(48:53):
not like the Milwaukee Brewers of today. So I was
I was concerned about that. But I guess the conclusion
is it's always been this way. There's always been like
ebbs and flows, different things become popular, other things that
have been traditional become unpopular. Is it's just the way
things I don't know even out in a sense, and
how they go back and forth. And are we going
to go back to what we had been doing before,

(49:14):
a more traditional part of the game and not just
don't get so concerned about it. So that was my concern,
is the fantasy versus reality, and that we're getting too
much involved with fantasy and not involved as much in reality.
But then looking at somebody that's a historian that actually
I guess was a historian at the University of Chicago
back in the day, you know, really learned man. So

(49:36):
I guess this is just who we are. We always
want to scape reality through fantasy. And maybe it's a
good thing. I don't know, but I get caught up
in traditionalism, I do, although I've been accused of being
outside the box in my thinking for years. So I'm
trying to come to grips with where am I Where
do I lie on all this? So what do I
really think about all of this?

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Should I be more.

Speaker 4 (49:56):
Accepting of changes which I don't really like? Celebrations as
they occur, guy slipping bats and you know they're now
they're they're shaking hands with the first Spase coach, or
some kind of a display before they get to the
bag on a home run. All these things are they
work against my sensibilities, the things that I've learned. But
then again, maybe that's just this moment in time and

(50:19):
it's going to come back as it had been before.
So I don't know where I'm going with this overall,
just as an observation that I had to like actually
research for myself, this moment of fantasy becoming more more
important than reality, and a lot of segments and even
to the point where we have such problems in our
country is as the fantasy necessary to escape the realism

(50:42):
of what's happening right now. So baseball has got me
to think this way. And then I did a little
bit of my research, and maybe I'm the problem, That's
what I'm thinking.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
No, I think you're onto something. Clearly. Man has always.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Enjoyed escaping reality, right, I mean, imagination takes this place
as we otherwise could never visit, and it's a great diversion.
I think the one of the first movies that ever
made was an animated movie, was A rocket Ship to
the Moon. And think about how mysterious the moon was
for eons right until we went there mapped it out.

(51:16):
And now it's like nobody's writing songs and movies about
the moon anymore, right, So.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
We need to go farther.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
And I think what you're getting at, Joe, is that
even though this has always been our pastime, if you
will to escape reality, it seems to be I think
in the balance of reality versus imagination, the heavier side
of things now, like the escape now, is to actually
get in touch with reality, to actually touch things tangibly,

(51:43):
whether it's nature, whether it's a book. So much time
now is spent in a virtual world and adults costuming
and pretending to be something and putting a fake virtual
life out there online, that it almost the reverse happens
now where you go back to reality to Yeah, I

(52:04):
mean I do think it's it's so easier now.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
And you mentioned movies.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yes, I mean you have to go to a movie
theater now to see it in the theater rather than home,
because why probably the CGI the special effects, right, and
those have to be more escapism as well to get
you in. Not a storyline or acting or a narrative
or the screenplay. That's not going to pull people into
a theater. So I think you're onto something here, Joe,

(52:31):
that we do it more often and do it in
more creative ways than ever before that. Yes, I think
the balance between imagination and reality is skewing more towards
the imagination side more than ever it is.

Speaker 4 (52:43):
And I guess that's been concerning for me. Like I said,
movies are of that ilk. And then I'm looking at
the game itself. And you know, there's fantasy baseball, fantasy football,
which when you are involved, like in fantasy football, I
stopped playing that because I started rooting against my team.
If if there was if I had a player on
my fantasy team that was playing against the Cardinals at
that time and had a good day, I was okay

(53:04):
with that. I didn't like that, so I stopped doing it.
I could not root against my guys because of a
fantasy football situation, and that gets really out of control
and it takes absorbs your time and whatever. Anyway I've done,
this has been stuck in my head. And you did
a nice job that I appreciated of clarifying it for
me even more. But that's that's been my It's been stuck,

(53:25):
is stuck in my crawl a little bit. What am
I watching right now? What am I seeing right now?
I don't even want to go to a movie because
there's there's no real compelling movie to go see. I
think the Dylan movie was might be the most recent
one that I had to see. Other than that, all
the stuff that's thrown out there, it's it's just escapism.
And again, is that what we need right now? Over
the true reality? Really good research stories that could just

(53:49):
exist in a in a kitchen for the whole movie.
But it's well acted and as a great script I'm
in So I prefer that kind of thing over what
we're being inundated with right now. Last one here from
Frederic Nietzsche, we have art in order not to die
of the truth.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Guy was good. So I guess we're talking about all
of that anyway. Thank you for that.

Speaker 4 (54:10):
I'm still on a quest to really understand what I'm
thinking about all of this, but I'm concerned a little
bit about it. However, mister Borstein Borstein, I think his name,
Hey pronounce it just as pointed out to me.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
It's been happening for the last century.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
I love it. Good thought provoking stuff.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
And I promise you, Joe and our listeners on this podcast,
we will always keep it real.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
You never know, brother, you never know.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
Great job.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
We'll see you next time, all right, buddy, take care.
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