December 19, 2024 • 48 mins
In this episode of 'The Book of Joe' Podcast, Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci are getting ready for the Holiday season. The Yankees sign Cody Bellinger, how will he fit into their roster makeover? Tom explains a new study on pitching and the increase in injuries. What can teams learn from this latest research? The fixes could be simple, but will all teams follow suit? Plus, Joe and Tom remember their favorite gifts while exploring some actual baseball items available for gifts this season!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio,
Hey Drein.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome Back. It's the Book of Joe Podcast with Me,
Tom Berducci, and Joe Madden. Joe's that time of year.
I have to ask you, have you done all your shopping?
Almost finished?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm pretty close. I just got to get Coral, one
of my granddaughters. I think I just have Coral left,
get something for Beanie when I get up the pah
on Friday.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
So overall, yeah, I've been I've been very proactive. I'm
normally proactive.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I got so many you know, the grandkids and kids
and everything, so I kind of stay on top of
these things.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
So I think I'm in pretty good shape.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Good for you. Well for those who are not, by
the end of this podcast, we will give you some
holiday gift ideas for a baseball fan. I'm speaking of gifts.
How about the Yankees picking up Cody Bellinger for a
song Joe. This is obviously the Cubs wanted to move
out from under Cody Bellinger after the t from Kyle Tucker.
(01:05):
He basically was not living up to the contract that
was two years, fifty two million left unless he ops
out after one year, and the Yankees were a willing
partner there. On paper, Joe, it's a great fit, I
think because Cody Bellinger could play center field, get Eric
Judge out of center, get him back where he belongs
on the corner. And he's a left handed bat, and
the Yankees really need a left handed compliment to Eric
(01:28):
Judge specifically, he fills those bills. I'm not sure about
the Cody Bellinger that they're getting, Joe. That's what I
want to ask you about. When you get a player
like this who's trending down. You know, Cody Bellinger from
twenty nineteen, that player does not exist anymore and he's
not coming back. He can look at the way he
hits the ball, and Cody Bellinger has lost the ability
to hit the ball hard. In the last two years.
(01:50):
His average EGGS velocity out of two hundred and fifty
five batters ranks two hundred. He's been essentially over the
last five seasons, so it's not just the last two
years an average major league hitter. He's at OPS plus
of one hundred. That's essentially flat average. Now we know
there's more in the tank, Joe. He's a good athlete,
so give me your take on what happens with Cody Bellinger.
(02:11):
If you're the New York Yankees, they got a good
heading coach and James Browson. Do you just sign up
for this version the Cubs had the last couple of years,
or do you say, hey, we can get more out
of him.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
First of all, the one thing about him Bellinger, he's
a really good baseball player. I mean, so you've got
to look at the overall picture. I can play defense
in a couple of positions really well, like really well.
You know, he's a cute on the basis, he's just
a good baseball player with a lot of versatility. So
that's got to account for something regarding his offense in
(02:41):
that ballpark. Immediately, he could become better and more of
a power hitter in that ballpark if he is able
to pull the ball.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
There, which I think he can.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
And the next point would be, I'm certain that they
have done their homework and talking to James, they feel
as though they know what they can do to help him.
But I think number one would be the permission to
strike out. I mean, if you really want to get
more power out of him, because I know he's made
a really big push over the last couple of years
to contact the ball more, which I like, but I
like it with two strikes, you know. I just think
maybe situationally, you just turn them loose a little bit more,
(03:11):
And I would start with that with the permission to
strike out. And really, yes, I'm not necessarily working on
pulling the ball all the time, but I think he's
so good as an athlete that he could learn to
really turn it loose early in the account and then
he could just go to battle, almost like what Rizzo
has done over the last several years. So you're getting
a really good baseball player that fits multiple needs. Yes,
(03:32):
in the outfield, but if you need a first baseman,
he's really good there too. And then the final point
to really, if you want more pop out of this
permission to strike out and then really work on the
pull side while you're still maintaining his ability to move
the ball in situations run around third, baseless and two outs.
I just got to score this point. He has the
ability to do those kind of things. So I think
(03:53):
that's what they were looking at when they acquired him.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
That's a really good idea, Joe, because I've seen Cody
last couple of years now. He's gotten better against breaking stuff,
which I like. But I have seen him cut down
in his strong maybe not necessarily always just with two strikes.
He has cut down for the most part on his strikeouts,
and he has put the ball in play the way
he can riund you and run yourself into some hits
that way. But again, it's the power. Maybe it is
(04:18):
just late power that he got away from. And just
turn them loose and let it fly and accept a
few more strikeouts if they come. You know, I'm surprised
because now they have it. I don't know if this
is valuable or not, Joe. They can measure bat speed, right,
I always thought of Cody Bellinger pre's shoulder injury as
a guy with tremendous bat speed. You saw how hyper
flexible he was and that bat would wrap all the
(04:38):
way around his shoulders. He was in the thirteenth percentile
in bat speed this year, and again he's not hitting
the ball hard. It's lugging percentage is way down from
where it was in twenty nineteen. I just think the
Yankees and I understand your point, and I like your point.
You know, keep your expectations a little lower on Cody Bellinger.
You know he's not an envy. He hasn't made an
All Star team since twenty nineteen. He's a good player.
(05:01):
The other point you made I like Joe is he's
a good big player. And if he asked me one
goal for the New York Yankees this offseason, forget about personnel,
just overall goal to me, it would be play cleaner,
fundamental baseball. And I think Doandre helps there no question.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
I mean with the right that's been a big push.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
We heard all of that during the playoffs, and me
reading being a post reader, I read it almost daily
when they when they recapped the previous season, certain things
that they have to do better at, things that they
thought were not good, and that fundamental component always comes up.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
He is a fundamental player, and you're right.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
His swing, my god, when he was really good a
couple of years ago playing against the Cubbies, I thought, God, how.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Could a guy swing that hard and not miss? And
he didn't.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
And the big thing with that, I think at that
point was as the it became more in vogue to
elevate fastball, the effectiveness of his swing went south. Basically,
he had more of an upper cut kind of a swing,
and I think he's done really hard to attempt to
kind of level that thing off, really stay inside the ball, etc.
Things that permitted more contact based on what he had
(06:01):
been And I think did he have some kind of
an injury to his hand under wrist or something.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It was the shoulder. I mean, famous shot heard around
the world was when he did the shoulder bump. But
kik Hernandez in the twenty twenty postseason, well, I think
that's right. You know, that loose limb guy lost that looseness.
The shoulder had to be surgically operated on and tighten
it up, and you quite naturally, you know, kind of
lost that flexibility at speed.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
No, no question.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
It's no different than you know when you're measuring clubhet
speed with a golfer.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
I mean that's probably where it's gone.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
But I maybe you'll never reachieve that number of that
ability to get it there that quickly. But I think athletically,
like I said, if you just let him go a
little bit, well, I don't know the guy. I mean,
I've always liked his game from a distance, and I'm
just surmising if I am the Yankees, these I want
to get back to some of that, and I think
this would be my approach with him regarding the clubheat speed. Again,
(06:53):
he's learned how to handle the ball up and again,
and that would be more like line drive apple kind
of a thing. But man, when he was he would
kill that stuff down, I mean kill it, and with
this big old swing, with this tremendous finish, the bat
would wrap around his back. I would watch him like,
would be amazed that he could almost seehim out of
control and not be out of control. So there's got
(07:16):
to be something there that they're looking at. And this
would be the kind of the beginning I would have
with him. I'm sure it's going to start down here
in Tampa early on, with some kind of workouts in
January February, prior to camp. But dang, if they could
get him even close to back where he had been,
I just think he fits perfectly with this group.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, the Yankees, I still contend they'd be better off
with Jon Soto, right, I mean, he was plan A.
They tried to sign him. I will contend they were
never going to sign him because the Mets simply were
not going to be outbid. But let's take stock so
far of what they've done. Would Plan B Joe okay,
because they wound up with Max Reid, Devin Williams and
Cody Bellinger. And now let's talk about the cost and
(07:58):
player capital that they have given up. They gave up
a guy with a bad four arm who's a free
agent to be It's Nester Quartz. They gave up a
five foot six second baseman with no power prospect that
durban the Brewers in that deal, and in this deal
for Bellinger, they gave up Cody Petite, who's a right
headed pitcher thirty years old, who's thrown eighty innings in
(08:21):
the big leagues in his life. I mean, what do
they give up? So you hit three former All stars
who have tremendously high ceilings very little, and I think
they've got one more move left as a matter of
whether you go want to attack first base or third base?
Best options? Christian Walker and Alex Bregman, what do you
think of Plan B so far?
Speaker 4 (08:40):
I am in. I'm in about all of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
We had talked about that or the one part about
it I think may have gotten away from them would
be Kyle Tucker.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
That was the guy I would really if I'm in
their shoes. I would really want number one that guy.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
To me telling you, man, people may disagree, but it's
not a whole lot of difference if there is between
him and Jan Soto for me, because this guy's maybe
more complete player than Soto is.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
His ability at.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
The plate is maybe not the eye that Soto has,
but dang the power and he could hit a left
handed pitcher man. So that's that was the one part
about it that I thought if the Yankees had got him,
that really would have set it up. I thought Bellinger
being second place now after that third base and first base.
(09:27):
I think that's part of this, the fact that they've
given up so little. They just have to be how
much comfort did they do? They have taken stuff on
right now salary wise, But I like Chisholm at second base.
I wouldn't even think about putting him back at third.
I mean, they keep trying to convince everybody that he's
a third baseman, but athletically I would want that fellow
at second base and then first. I like I told
(09:49):
you before, I'm a big Christian Walker fan. I have
been for years. I just when I first saw this
guy said, dang, I mean it's like a little ball
explodes off this guy's bat and then either I don't
think I think Bregman, if I had a bet, was
going to go back to Houston if I had a bet,
And that leaves Aeronauto Again, here's another guy similar to
Bellinger that has been trending differently compared to what he
(10:11):
had started out as. However, it's still better than what
they have or what they could conjure up in the
near future. I mean, I I'd really like to see
if they come in and I guess this is not
my money, but Walker and and like even in Aeronado,
combined with everything else they've done, that would be a
pretty outstanding off season.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
From what I hear, the Yankees not that sold on Aeronado. Yeah,
Bregman not that close with Houston. The Houston started out
way below market, and then once the Willia Dommas contract
was signed, that number is going to be close to two,
if not over two hundred. Red Sox Yankee still in
play there. That's gonna still need some time to play out,
(10:51):
but definitely options there are still on the board at
both corner positions in the infield. I expect the Yankees
to address one of those spots, Joe, you've read any good,
any good reading material lately?
Speaker 4 (11:03):
Uh? Yeah, reading a book about wokeness.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Okay, I can't remember the author's name, but anyway, it's
kind of interesting. I read about it in the New
York Post and then I began to read it. It's
very you know, clinical, I got to really stay with it.
Sometimes my inability to focus and concentrate based on my
years of having not read. So anyway, it's kind of
(11:26):
interesting book about the woke community and what it's meant
and where the world's going to right now. So that's
that's where I've been.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah. I just got through a speaking of dense, a
very dense book on the Civil War from Eric Larson,
who does a great job. Oh I love historical nonfiction,
great stuff, but you got to stick with it. And
speaking of dense reads, I just read the sixty three
page report that Major League Baseball put together after more
than a year long study of trying to figure out
(11:55):
what is going on with picture injuries. We need to
dive into this joke, some fascinating stuff that's in there.
We'll talk about that right after this break. Well, Joe,
(12:16):
I'm guessing that you had not read this sixty three
page before it just came out. It's not available at
your local bookstores quite yet, but it tells us a
lot of things we already know. Pictures are breaking down
a lot. There's more strikeouts in the game, batting average
going down. But there were some very interesting findings here,
and I'm going to start Joe with first of all,
the overarching reasons. They had three primary reasons why pictures
(12:41):
are breaking down as often as they are. Number one
was velocity. There's no question about this, just from a
kinetic point of view, they're putting more stress on their
arm the harder they throw. As hard as you train,
as strong as you get, you just can't strengthen that
ucl So that's breaking down from the result of that strain.
Optimizing stuff was number two. What does that mean? It
(13:02):
means we're in an age of technology where guys are
throwing bullpens and all they're doing is looking at their
metrics and they're trying to get more spin, more break,
and by doing that, you really can't just have a
touch and field bullpen. You know, you're maxing out on
every pitch. So there's that optimizing stuff. And number three
the game now is about maximum effort. It's about throwing
as hard as you can for as long as you can,
(13:23):
which is not very long. You know, these guys are
pitching shorter. So those are the three primary reasons, a
whole host of reasons, as you know, Joe, But what
do you think about those? Is the three primary reasons
why we can't keep pictures healthy?
Speaker 4 (13:35):
How much did this study cost?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I didn't get the total cost of it, but it
took more than a year. They interviewed more than two
hundred people. I mean everything from biomechanics to orthopedic surgeons,
to former pitchers, you name it, club executives, probably a
lot of interviews, and a lot of money spent on
airplane fares.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Well, that's called common sense, isn't it. And it's so
weird how that's going to actually play into our post
to the day thing. Yeah, I mean, of course it
all makes sense, and it's everything we've been talking about.
And again it's when you start trying to play have
human beings plays though they're being controlled by a joystick,
(14:17):
things are gonna are bad.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
It's gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
I mean, it's just common Yes, the velocity component of it.
You know the stuff in the maxed out bullpens, maxed
out everything.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
It's just from pitch one. They don't want the ball
in play.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
We got to start striking people out from the verious
first hitter of the game. And I hated that in
the dugout. I mean, and I've used the example James Shields.
James Shield's one of the best, most competitive pitchers. I've
ever had the pleasure of managing James. When he would
be throwing too hard in the first inning, I didn't
like that if I saw ninety four and then if
you got in a little trouble too many changeups in
(14:52):
the first inning, I really believe in. You build into
this thing like it's got a great a result in
a crescendo at some point we oftentimes you've heard about
in the past, Well, if I don't get this guy early,
if he's set into the game, I'm not going to
get them.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
And I guys like that.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Are really those are the dudes you want, and they're
the six, seven, eight inning guys that really make your
bullpen even better. So it's one thing the max staff
for whether it's your change up, your fastball, whatever, there's
this other pitch that you really want to highlight in
the game, and then how do you get to the
game and what this workout looks like and where all
your intent is. And it's not about pitching and feeling
(15:29):
and understanding and and really trying to save things to
the second or third times with the batting order. It's
just lay it all out there. And that's why these
guys concede when they want to take the ball from
them so early they concede.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
It's okay.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
We've trained them also to just to kind of be
like afraid of the third time through themselves.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
So this is all like it is. It's I don't.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Want to say brainwashing, because the numbers do kind of
support it, but it's it's a situation where we have
convinced these pitchers of all these components. So thus they're
throwing as hard as they can as long as they can,
doing whatever you want us to do. And now taking
the ball from them earlier is easier because everybody's bought
into this.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, I mean, listen, the system is set up to
encourage exactly the kind of pitching that is harming the game,
at least from a fan friendly point of view. We're
asking pitchers to pitch less often and pitch less when
they go out there, so you're encouraging this, you know,
let it eat mentality for everybody, including the starting pitchers.
The report also acknowledges this is going out in the
(16:31):
minor leagues and that's part of the problem as well,
and club executives acknowledged that they're even more conservative with
their pictures in the minor leagues. So two things are happening.
Those pitchers are not developing endurance and they're also again
being incentivized to max out because they're not pitching enough. No,
there's no and you know this was training, Joe. The
days the pictures running are over. There's no endurance training.
(16:55):
It is all burst training because pitching has become burst
and not craft.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Yes on all of that stuff. It's absolutely true.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
And this is another example of you know, what is progress.
In my mind's eye, the word progress or progressive doesn't
always mean or equals something that's better. I'll agree that
it's different, but I can't tell that it's necessarily better
when you're talking about the minor league this. I've had
this idea for the last couple of years when it
comes to developing pitchers in the minor leagues.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Why can't you just.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Really draft and develop a group that have more pitchability,
and then just draft and develop a group that has
more stuff. I think you have to like balance it
out to the point where you just don't go stuff
all the time. With the velocity, the velocity training, the
high amps, RPMs and bullpens, et cetera. There's a group
(17:48):
that maybe that app applies to. But then you've got
to get a bunch of guys, teach them how to pitch,
teach them how to pitch, encourage this group this like
I would say the range would be, I don't know,
anywhere eighty nine to ninety three ninety four. I mean,
when I started scouting in the mid eighties early eighties,
average velocity fastball, believe it or not, was eighty eight
miles an hour on a ray gun. On a jugs
gun an eighty five miles an hour on a ray gun.
(18:11):
The difference was that one measured at home plate, the
other one measured out of the pitcher's hands. It was
the same information, but it just it just popped up differently.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
So eighty eight so I could give a fifty.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Grade to an eighty eight mile an hour fastball off
my ygun might excuse me my speed gun.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Back in the day.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
So now I would say that average is probably about
ninety one, ninety two, ninety two point five something like.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
That in that area.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
So if you do that and you really teach a
legitimate I think, a legitimate change up and a legitimate
legitimate curveball, That's where I would start with all this
with my young pitchers. So I'd have this pitchability group,
and then I would have my stuff group, which I
probably would want to delegate or designate for bullpen. I
would probably want that where I want more guys with
pitchability pitching the first couple of several innings of the
(18:56):
game for me, Guys that I could teach and could
learn how to get through that third time through the
batdingguarter because they're not expending all their energy earlier in
the game. I I'd love to see that happen, like
to see somebody step out there and do that. Really
try to develop in two different ways. Yeah, I want
to strike out. I want my bullpen guys to come in,
run around second and third.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
One out. It's the ladder part of the game.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
I want that dude that could come out, Jake McGee,
who I know could come out and ride that high
fastball to a right handed hitter even though he's left
ten and they have no chance.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
I want that guy absolutely. But then I want James Shields.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
He's gonna throw hundred and eight hundred and ten hundred
and fifteen pitches and he's gonna pitch with like a
ninety two min hour fastball with a tremendous change up,
a developed curveball that he used to encourage him to
throw all the time that he would not throw often
enough for me. Then he got into the cutter, which
I didn't like nearly as much, but nevertheless he knew
how to pitch. So philosophically, create your philosophy. If you,
(19:51):
if somebody were to create the philosophy organizationally, and then
you go out and fulfill it, you're gonna get what
you what you asked for, a practice for, drafted for.
But if you just choose to go one route only,
that's not progress.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes, yeah, just a couple of numbers for you. The
average velocity now to foreseen fastball in the big leagues
is ninety four miles an hour two thousand and eight,
it was ninety one the Perfect Game National Showcase. So
that's your best high school arms. You show up at
these showcases. Right. If you go back to the five
years between fourteen and nineteen, twenty fourteen and twenty nineteen,
(20:24):
there was an average of five point six guys, this
is high schoolers who could hit ninety five on the
gun at these showcases. Last year there were thirty six.
I mean, that's just crazy in a short period of time.
So we know velocity is going up. It's being taught everywhere.
Let me give you three things, Joe to me that
to me, we're new. As I said, a lot of
(20:45):
this was just confirming what we know. Okay, a couple
of things stood out for me as being new. Number one,
March is the most dangerous time of year for pitchers.
Looking at the numbers and the players placed on the
IL pitchers, it's gone up since twenty seventeen eighty two percent.
Once you get to the after opening day, the rate
(21:08):
actually has gone down the last three years. Something is
happening recently where players are coming to camp and they're
blowing out. And one of the theories in this report,
and this is not for me. This is from orthopedic surgeons,
is that the desire to chase velocity and spin in
the off season is stressing arms. And the ramp up
(21:30):
to spring training is greater than it was before, and
they're doing everything in spring training as they would in
the middle of the season in terms of max effort,
and that's why we're seeing March is the most dangerous
time of year for shoulders and elbows.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Well, truly, it was a way more conservative method in
the off season guys. That's where guys would really be
careful with how much they threw, when they threw, and
they would gradually build into these higher velocity things. Number
of times on the mount how long did they throw
off a flat ground, even right down to their long
toss programs, which I really leaven. I don't even know
(22:04):
to what extent they're emphasized anymore, but I've always thought,
if you want to prove your arm strength, just throw
the ball far. Mark Langston was one of the best
I've ever seen at that, so yeah, I could. I
don't know that for I recollecting more recently. You're right
in regards to like, you know, the drive lines and
whatever guys are paying money to go to these places,
and of course you see these drills where they take
(22:27):
a hop skip and throw the ball as hard as
they can into a net.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
And then.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Compared to my god, like I said, guys will take
a couple of months off, they start training, like you know,
running or lifting weights or do something stretching, but then
they start building into their throwing gradually. And you really
were very cautious in spring training. How you got to
that point where they were ready to pitch five innings
as a starter in a minor even a minor league
(22:53):
and major league game. So the training has dramatically changed.
And absolutely I can see then to your other point,
you're talking about velocity among high school guys.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
My god, back when.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
I had scouted too, there's rare that you saw a
kid throw even ninety plus out of high school back
in the day. And then if you saw a kid
with a really good breaking ball, and maybe his velocity
might have been like eighty four eighty five, let's say
eighty eight being average at that time, but if he
had good spin on a breaking ball, that was easier
to project that this guy's going to improve his fastball
(23:24):
just based on his ability to spin it. So like
Dwayne Dwayne Wood and Scott at Dwayne Word had a
great arm with the Blue Jays in New Mexico. And
this dude was one of the few that was throwing
that high number out of high school. He was really
and Charlie Kerfield was another one. But other guys that
you would scout if they could just spin it, if
they could just spin it, you thought their fastball would
(23:45):
get better.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Speaking in fastballs number two, for me, this struck me
as a new novel identifying and defying the maximum effort.
And they did this by looking at the standard deviation
of fastballs. Okay, so what they found is over the
last seven years, that standard deviation keeps going down. It's
now at about one point oh six. I think it
(24:07):
is where you're getting closer to one. So if you
got to a one standard deviation, that basically you're throwing
the same way all the time, so that standard deviation
is dropping. What that tells you is there's no modulation,
there's no adding and subtracting. That's putting an identifier on
this maximum effort all pitches, all the time. Mentality that's happening,
(24:28):
and actually the lowest closer to one the standard deviation
happened in twenty twenty. I think about twenty twenty. That
was a sixty game season short ramp up to the
season expanded rosters, guys were pitching even shorter. So there's
a direct correlation between asking pitchers to pitch less and
maximum effort going into each pitch. They've identified that we
(24:51):
can measure that guys are maxing out more than they
ever have.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Yeah, it's just watching it.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
I mean that would be something that was a scouting
term even back in the day too.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Is he's a max effort guy.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I mean he would just bump and and like used
it from his toes to the hair on his head.
He would absolutely grind to throw that ball as hard
as he could. And that was always undesirable actually, because
you always felt as though something bad was going to
happen with that arm. As a guy through during the
course of the year. Easy gas was always a wonderful term.
Guys that did it easily that the ball just came
(25:23):
out of the hands so well that the delivery was
timed out well, the front foot of the arm arriving
at the same point, and then when he concluded his
chest at the plate, his head never moved and his
backfoot would turn over and he would get in a
good fielding position kind of when he concluded his throat.
That was like what you looked for, and you looked
(25:44):
how the arm worked behind the picture also regarding what
it did. How long the stroke was in the back
for me, didn't necessarily have to be long, because it
was some really good short armors back there too.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
But it was just a matter of how.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Fluid and easy that armstroke was and how much they
They really like the guys that really grunt to throw,
and there's still a couple of the left. I mean,
some have been successful, but all of that was something
that we measured and we were kind of like, didn't
like the max effort guys we liked. We always liked
the guys that did it more easily and the great
phrases to throw some easy gas with the bull just
(26:19):
jumps out of your hand, for everything is timed out well.
But I think as you encourage more velocity, you're going
to get more of the max separate guys and you're
going to come out of deliveries. And that was always
my thing with my starters. If I thought they were
coming out of the delivery later, and again when you
try to manufacture velocity. That was something they got from
Joe Coleman that when you have to be careful, when
guys start trying to manufacture able velocity as opposed to
(26:41):
just letting velocity happen, that's when things normally broke down
and command left them.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Point number three that I found new or at least interesting,
And this is no offense to the former players. They
talked to some of the pitching coaches, the pitching coordinators,
they talked to guys who played the game. I put
a lot more faith when it comes to this talking
about injuries in the medical people, the team trainers, and
(27:07):
especially the orthopedic surgeons. That's where I want my information
because the game is so different. We're not going back
to nineteen eighty six because we have so many ways
to train guys and so much more knowledge about how
the body works. So I want to listen to the
orthopedic surgeons, and what they said was kind of scary
to me that, let's face it, we just talked about velocity, Joe,
but we know that the use of fastballs actually keeps
(27:28):
going down to a record low less than half of
the pitches now are fastballs and major league baseball. So
spin is up? Why spin up? Because everybody's chasing spin,
and they're chasing the shape of the pitches. So there's
a whole lot more of grip's strength that's in play.
There's a whole lot more of supernation and pronation, whatever
you have to do, arm angles, dropping the sweeper becoming
(27:49):
such a popular pitch. And what the orthopedic has said is,
and this is not more than one, they're seeing shoulder
injuries and rib cage injuries like they've never seen before.
We're talking about fractured ribs throwing a baseball. We're talking
about tear of the terrorist muscle. We're talking about scap injuries.
We're talking about the capsule, the muscles that really stabilize
(28:11):
the capsule of the shoulder now that are tearing and breaking.
And the orthopedis are saying this is because the way
people are chasing pure stuff, not just velocity, that I
found especially interesting makes sense.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
One of the tenants in the past was always to
develop fastball command first.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
I mean, you really did not want to move one of.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Your minor league pitchers at all until they really learn
how to develop command. Of their fastball, because that was
the one pitch that everything always worked off of. And
when you had a guy that really knew could throw
a strike when he wanted to throw a strike. To me,
that was always a definition of a major league picture
was he could throw his fastball for a strike when
he wanted to. There's times you don't want to, you
wanted to be off, to play whatever, but to develop
(28:56):
fastball command first. And when you do develop fastball command
first and know where your fastball is going, then that's
the kind of guy that I I think you can't
pitch the third time to the batting order and can
throw one hundred pitches more easily. And again going back
to the stress test of putting on the arm so
much by all the different contortions that we're asking the
body to do, I'd love to see a regeneration of
(29:19):
that and this and the orthopedic guys know what they're
talking about, but also so does Marcel Latchman. You know,
guys that have been around a long time, really outstanding,
established pitching coaches. I would love to see worphing together
of some of the guys that are still with us
that taught pitchers for so many years and were so
successful on so many different levels, with so many different.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Kinds of guys.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Why would you not want to bring together the science
of the whole thing and the actual practical application that
a lot of these pitching coaches were able to afford.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I mean, everybody's talking.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
About brett Strom, right, Strowoery's been around for one hundred years,
so guys like that. I'd like to see what they
have to say and overlay that with what all the
scientific or medical communities talking about. Because I'm telling you,
eyeball matter, field matters, common sense matters. So I don't
know how much of that is being applied to this,
(30:10):
but I'd love to see because when it comes down
to it, we have been so taught to just believe
numbers and believe the science only, and we've been taught
to not believe experience and eyeballs anymore.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
I'd like to see it over late.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Well, the bottom line is you know this, Joe. The
incentives are set up now to have this system in place,
and if I'm a pitcher, I realize what the risks are.
I see people, you know, blowing out their elbows.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
I get it.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
But I'm signing up for it because I need to
throw hard because hard harder is better, Throwing faster is better,
Spinning the ball is better. All the numbers show that,
so performance and salary all are incentivized advising pictures and
the system, the way clubs use pictures is all set
up for this to be sustainable. I'm not saying sustainable
in terms of health, but I don't see it change
(30:56):
because this is the way the system is set up.
So the recommendation from this report is to find a
way basically to modulate pitching. And maybe this report says
one way to do that, and it might be the
only way is to start looking at roster rules and
playing rules to incentivize teams and pitchers to modulate their pitching. Now,
(31:18):
that could be as simple as dropping the number of
pitchers on a roster. You drop that to eleven. It
could be that to get away from this roster churn,
because there's so many guys now who throw over nineties
that you know, guys with options are going back and
forth to drop of a hat. Soon as they pitch
two innings and they can't pitch for another couple of days,
they go down to the minors. Somebody else comes up
(31:38):
put some more rules on keeping guys down to the minors.
If you're sending them down the penalties like if you
take your starter out before the fifth inning, you lose
your DH. There was some talk, and people get carried
away because anytime you bring up an idea, they think
it's going to be implemented. Having a pitch right, you
must pitch five or six innings minimum in a game.
That's not happening. But this is the conversations that are
(32:00):
happening that the way the game is set up right now,
things are not going to change unless there are structural
changes to the system of how baseball is played. What
do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Yeah, I'm you know, I'm just I love the organic
changes that I don't like. I don't like legislation in
order to attempt to change this thing. And again, the
game's been pretty darn good for a long time. We're
talking about one specific problem right now. Then you're going
to all of a sudden change the format completely. I
don't like it, frankly, I don't.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I think I can agree Joe that if nothing changes
this system, it's actually getting exaggerated. Pictures are pitching less
and less and less, and they're using more and more
pictures in the course of the season, and batting average is
going down and strikeouts are going up.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
That's looking to change philosophy.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
It really comes down to what we're teaching and how
we're teaching in and what the expectations are of those teachings.
If you just want swing and miss only, if that's
what the front office wants, then yeah, you're going to
probably have to do some things in order to mitigate,
ameliorate whatever the word is right that you want to do.
But I listen, there's just the way it's being taught.
We've just talked about that and what's being asked of
(33:08):
these pictures to do, which is basically impossible if you're
a human being. That's that's the biggest part of the problem.
I mean, you normally have a lot of really good information.
Is there like a study done on the longevity of
a major league picture, like how many years in the
big leagues now compared to like say twenty years ago.
Just how many years there's an average major league picture
(33:29):
pitching the big leagues now compared to them. I'm just
curious about that and how the injury plays into that,
because back in the day too, Guys wouldn't even say anything.
They wouldn't say that there arm hurts because they knew
they're going to be replaced. There was such a glut
of minor league players and really good ones that were
willing to or they're willing to take your place. I
prefer a paradigm shift in philosophy.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
That's what I.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Prefer, and this is what baseball prefers that too, Joe.
It's a matter of how you get there, and I
think that's the crux of the matter is it's not
going to get there organically, because, as I just said,
on the amateur level, if you don't throw ninety as
high school kid, you're not getting colleges to look at you.
If you're fifteen and you're getting scouted in Latin America,
you have to throw above ninety or else you're not
(34:14):
going to get signed.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Doesn't it have to occur individually within organizations, Like who's
the first organization going to say, listen, we're going to
do this. It's such a copycat thing. I mean, we've really,
I think, devolved into the sameness. And I've talked about
this before. Everybody wants to be like everybody else. Even
back down to the study, Why didn't the Yankees have
a specific study or the Daughters have a specific study,
or the Mariners have a specific study just to suit
(34:37):
their needs and what they think or believe.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
It's always this you need a large sample size, though,
I mean, they have access to the whole cross section
of people to find this problem. So I'd rather have
that information that somebody working in a silo in one organization. Now,
what you do with it should be individualized. But I
like the fact that they didn't go had the lens
really wide open to get this info.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah, I guess I'm not a post of that. But
at the end of the day, the Mariners have to
make up their own minds, the Yankees have to make
up their own minds. Everybody got to make it, but
nobody does. Nobody makes up their own minds anymore. Becomes
this group think kind of a thing. And I think
that's where it really breaks down. Somebody's gonna have to
have the courage to say this hasn't worked. I know
what everybody else is saying, but we're going to do
this instead, And this is why. And that's what I'm saying.
(35:20):
If you take the science about the whole thing and
then get some people with actual experience of doing this
and overlay it.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
That to me would be the.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Most interesting way to break this cycle, because it can't
remain this way, and it's not gonna work this way
regardless of this beautiful study and everything. Unless somebody takes
action and is strong enough to go away from the
over overwriting philosophy of an industry, you're gonna end up
doing the same thing over and over again. I guess
that's the definition of insanity.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, last year, this twenty twenty fourth season, there were
two hundred and eighty one Tommy John surgeries for professional
pitchers minor leagues and major league. Well that's kind of
sixty nine percent in the last decade. So that's one
Tommy surgery for every day of the championship season. Every
day at the championship season, somebody is getting cut on
(36:10):
that elbow. So it's an issue. It's not an issue
in terms of performance. It's harder to hit than ever
before the major leagues. It's an issue because pitchers are
not staying healthy. We owe it to them to try
to keep them healthy, and it's not producing a fan
friendly game where the ball just is not play. So
(36:31):
what happens? Listen, this is just the beginning identifying a problem.
The answers are not easy, but hopefully there are some
There is some change in philosophy going forward, because I
when you extrapolate this out, it just gets worse. To me. Joe,
we talked about gifts for your baseball fan. If you
haven't purchased any, I've got a couple of ideas. We'll
(36:52):
talk about that right after this. Welcome back to the
Book of Joe podcast. That's me Tom Berducci with Joe Madden. Joe,
I might have asked you this before. Do you have
(37:13):
a favorite gift growing up as a kid that you
got on Christmas?
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Easy that blew you away? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
I just brought it up on the golf course the
other day, my flexible flyer I slid, yeah, with the
chrome bumper on it. That actually I did touch with
my tonguer lips one time and it did stick, and
it's kind of scared the crap out of me.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
But that thing that survived.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
I ran into a one of those wooden horses that
they used to block the streets off, so I did
my sight swiped it and it broke the side of
my sled, but I, you know, got it back home
and my dad was so talented he put a brace
on it, put it back together, so that flexible Flyer.
I remember waking up and it was standing up against
(37:53):
the wall and they were beautiful. The construction was beautiful,
the decal, the sticker, the logo, the emblem, whatever was outstanding.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
Flexible Flyer wins. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
That was back when they had a lot of snow too,
so I'm sure you got to use it a lot.
I remember this toy I got called a Sandlot slugger.
This guy where his young kid wearing jeans and a
T shirt. You push down on his head and he
would swing the bat. And it came with a ball
on a tee and the harder you push down on
(38:25):
his head, the part of the ball went. I don't
know why, but I was very little in the love
baseball and you could use it anywhere and annoy your
sister's with it. So that's what I did. But I
was looking at the I don't know if you saw
this the other day, the home run that Freddie Freeman
hit the Grand Slam, walk off Grand Slam Game, War
of the World Series, Great moment, right, did you see
it just sold at auction?
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Joe?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
First of all, it was captured by a ten year
old kid grandstand the bleachers of Dodger Stadium. It was
a cute story because the kids got braces on and
his parents tell them, Hey, we're going to go to
the orthodontis and take your braces off, and they surprised
him by going straight to Dodger Stadium, not to the
orthodontic and he winds winds up with this ball that
Freddy Freeman was all Kirk Gibson on baseball history with
(39:09):
the home Running Game one. Did you see it just
sold at auction? Joe?
Speaker 4 (39:12):
I did not.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
It went for one point five six million dollars. Come on,
ten year old kid goes to a ball game, gets
a ball that becomes worth one point five to six
million dollars. How about that?
Speaker 4 (39:26):
That's wow, That's that's staggering. Right.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
It does not. It does not top the all time
record for a baseball at auction, and that was by
no other than shohe Otania his home run when he
went he got his fiftieth home run to make it
fifty to fifty for the first time in baseball history.
That sold at auction point three nine two million dollars.
(39:51):
Think about that. The Dodgers this year paid Otani two
million dollars in salary. Don't forget sixty eight million was
the first he was paid two million dollars in salary
at a baseball where it's twenty five bucks, sold for
double his salary of the Dodgers, what.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
Did that banana sell for? That piece of art, the
banana tape with the with the duct tape, the.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Dude duct tape. Yeah, I saw. They talked to the
guy at the bedego who sold the darn thing. He's like,
what right, Yeah, that was millions.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Right, And the guy that bought it ate the banana.
So I mean, it's like who knows, I mean, the
price of anything anymore.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
I love the idea.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I love the part about the parents telling the kid
who's going to get his braces taken off and then
all of a sudden that occurred. That's the magical part
of you know, parents taking kids the ball games, and
and that kind of impression will last forever. But I listen,
it's just it's like anything else is why do you
pay Soto seven? You know, seven hundred and some million dollars.
It's just the price of doing business right now. And
(40:46):
that's what happens with these baseballs, and somebody, somebody has
to have that item. You know, I wanted. I wanted
a new set of irons the other day, so I
did that. It's just it's what somebody, somebody's willing to
pay for it. It's interesting.
Speaker 4 (40:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
For me, it doesn't really float my boat in a sense,
or I don't really doesn't move my needle at all,
because I just that goes in and out of my brain.
But for the kid catching the ball because he went
to get braces or thought he's getting his brace was
taken off, I think that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Well, I mean, I'm glad you brought that up with one.
So do people say, well, he's not worth it?
Speaker 4 (41:16):
Right?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
He is worth it because he put himself out on
the open market and somebody paid him that money. That's
the definite definition of worth. It boggles my mind. But
people are like, that's too much. Somebody paid it, that's right.
I mean, for instance, Joe, what do you The all
time record for any piece of baseball memorabilia was the
(41:40):
jersey that Babe Ruth wore in nineteen thirty two at
the Friendly Confines at Wrigley Field, the cold shot home run.
You know what that jersey went for? It sold four
months ago, by the way, nineteen thirty two cold shot
jersey at Babe Ruth all time record just taking.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
A stab five million, five million.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
You're not even close, really, twenty four point one two
million dollars. You say it's not worth it, right, Well,
it was to somebody.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
Is that the same jersey that Costanza wiped was all over?
He sat there because he was trying to get fired
by the Yankees, and s Steinbrender said, it's about time.
Just a chubby little guy with skinny legs running around
the base is something like that. Listen, that's that's I
didn't know that. I did not know that at all.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Costanza didn't wash it, and you have a shrink on him.
It was so I came up with some ideas for
the if you're wanting some last minute gift ideas. MLB
dot com. You know they run these auctions. You see
balls taken out of the game, right, and they put
it authenticity sticker on it, and you know you can
bit on it. By the way, the ball that Aaron
Judge dropped.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
I heard that one.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, forty three grand. The Dodgers did not sell that,
by the way. That was MLB auction, So you could
buy Aaron Judge's forty fourth home run ball four his
career number three oh one, so there's not really any
history attached to it. The current bid on that is
(43:08):
five grand, okay, so you'd bring at least five grand
if you want to get somebody as a as a
Christmas present. Aaron Judge's forty fourth home run ball a triple,
just an ordinary triple. If there is such a thing
for sho Hey Otani a ball he hit for a triple,
It's got a bid on it right now, eighteen hundred bucks,
so you've got to go higher than that. And there's
(43:29):
a beat that Otani used that he autographed as well,
game used bat and he autographed. It sounds like a
good gift for somebody, you know, Joe who's a big
O'tani fan. Right well, you better bid quickly because the
bidding closes on December the nineteenth, and the minimum bid
is fourteen nine and ninety five dollars. I think this
(43:51):
is all points to the fact that baseball is in
a really good place right now, Joe, You're spending fifteen
thous on an Otani autographed bet.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
These are the kind of items you need for your auction,
items that your foundation, And I.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Think, yeah, how about that that right exactly?
Speaker 3 (44:04):
I mean that's if you get in the right city,
and you have to have a big part of getting
that kind of dose having the right auctioneer. These guys
make or break your evening with your foundational dinners and stuff.
We've gone through that with respect ninety foundation. But that's
what I think when you say all that, and when
you get really really good stuff and you have the
right crowd with the right auctioneer. And I'm just talking
(44:26):
about online right now. And I guess maybe online could
actually be a pretty good auctioneer based on the number
of people that see it. But that's the difference maker.
So again, with somebody's willing to pay, is what it's worth.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, the Freeman Ball, the bidding went crazy, like in
the last thirty or thirty minutes or last hour have
been about it was under a million to wound up
going at one point five million. So there you go.
If you've got say at least twenty thousand on you.
You can buy a home line ball by Aaron Judge,
a ball at at In for a triple, and an
ATONI signed bat. There you go.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
I guess they're also counting on appreciation at some point,
right that is that supposed to be like the grand
kid's college education, because that time it's going to be
at least one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year
to go to Harvard or Yelle at one of those places,
or Princeton where you're located.
Speaker 4 (45:15):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
You never know. You never know because the tany home
run ball I said, went for more than four millions
at the record. The old record was three million, and
that was Mark Maguire's seventieth home run ball. Really sure
that's appreciated much over the years.
Speaker 4 (45:31):
Joe, No, I agree with you on that one percent percent.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
So you kind of teased your your closing line here, Joe.
I think it has something to do, if I'm correct here,
with trusting data as much as we do in society today.
But who do you got with the words of the day.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
I don't have an actual contributor.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
It's just from a famous story movie Miracle on thirty
fourth Street, and appropriately. Yeah, all right, I wanted to
go with the Christmas name right now, and wow, we
nailed it early and simply put.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
And I love this because you know how I am.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
I mean, I do believe in numbers and I like
them and I want some direction, but I also believe
in people a little bit more and things that you
don't understand. So faith is believing in things when common
sense tells you not to. Faith is believing in things
when common sense tells you not to, things that you
just can't see, but you have to believe they're out there.
(46:26):
And this, of course, this has to deal with faith,
saying a religious method right here even and just when
it comes down to believing in Santa Claus or not,
but you have to rely on common sense. I mean
sometimes it just comes down to it. And we're talking
about the pitching right now. For me, obviously, everything's saying,
you know, trying to throw real hard is not good.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
It's just not good.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
And then you want pictures to last longer, So it's
going to come down to a different method of training.
You just can't continue this method and expect a different result.
It's just not going to work. And you talk about
hitting you're talking about hitting being a dearth of hitting
right now, Well, if in fact you teach a different
method of pitching, even if there's not, the ball is
(47:09):
put in play more, which is exactly what not hits,
but ball being put in play more and more reliance
on defense and good old fashioned positioning, because now we're
pitching at a lot of velocity number but still hard
to hit. It's not easy to hit, man, it's just
not easy. But the development of the fastball more are
more i guess, pedestrian fastball like ninety three, ninety four,
(47:30):
and learning just a different method of doing this, which
is a more of a tried and true method.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
So then common sense would tell.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
You that pitchers pitching that manner, you're probably gonna get
greater longevity out of them, both in terms of career
and number of innings during appearance. And on the other side,
you're looking for more offense, ball being put in play,
maybe not necessarily equating hits, but it should. There'll be
more greater batting average. But maybe you're gonna get what
you want. You're gonna get healthier pitchers and a little
(48:00):
bit more offense, and then you're gonna arrive at what's
called baseball that doesn't a whole lot of change, but
maybe just needs to learn from its past.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
I like it, Joe.
Speaker 4 (48:09):
Faith.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
It's a great word any time of year, but especially
at this time of year. So thanks for that and
a great job. We'll see you next time on the
Book of Joe.
Speaker 4 (48:18):
All right, brother, take care of Merry Christmas.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Merry Christmas to everybody.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
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Hey Drein.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome Back. It's the Book of Joe Podcast with Me,
Tom Berducci, and Joe Madden. Joe's that time of year.
I have to ask you, have you done all your shopping?
Almost finished?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm pretty close. I just got to get Coral, one
of my granddaughters. I think I just have Coral left,
get something for Beanie when I get up the pah
on Friday.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
So overall, yeah, I've been I've been very proactive. I'm
normally proactive.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I got so many you know, the grandkids and kids
and everything, so I kind of stay on top of
these things.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
So I think I'm in pretty good shape.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Good for you. Well for those who are not, by
the end of this podcast, we will give you some
holiday gift ideas for a baseball fan. I'm speaking of gifts.
How about the Yankees picking up Cody Bellinger for a
song Joe. This is obviously the Cubs wanted to move
out from under Cody Bellinger after the t from Kyle Tucker.
(01:05):
He basically was not living up to the contract that
was two years, fifty two million left unless he ops
out after one year, and the Yankees were a willing
partner there. On paper, Joe, it's a great fit, I
think because Cody Bellinger could play center field, get Eric
Judge out of center, get him back where he belongs
on the corner. And he's a left handed bat, and
the Yankees really need a left handed compliment to Eric
(01:28):
Judge specifically, he fills those bills. I'm not sure about
the Cody Bellinger that they're getting, Joe. That's what I
want to ask you about. When you get a player
like this who's trending down. You know, Cody Bellinger from
twenty nineteen, that player does not exist anymore and he's
not coming back. He can look at the way he
hits the ball, and Cody Bellinger has lost the ability
to hit the ball hard. In the last two years.
(01:50):
His average EGGS velocity out of two hundred and fifty
five batters ranks two hundred. He's been essentially over the
last five seasons, so it's not just the last two
years an average major league hitter. He's at OPS plus
of one hundred. That's essentially flat average. Now we know
there's more in the tank, Joe. He's a good athlete,
so give me your take on what happens with Cody Bellinger.
(02:11):
If you're the New York Yankees, they got a good
heading coach and James Browson. Do you just sign up
for this version the Cubs had the last couple of years,
or do you say, hey, we can get more out
of him.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
First of all, the one thing about him Bellinger, he's
a really good baseball player. I mean, so you've got
to look at the overall picture. I can play defense
in a couple of positions really well, like really well.
You know, he's a cute on the basis, he's just
a good baseball player with a lot of versatility. So
that's got to account for something regarding his offense in
(02:41):
that ballpark. Immediately, he could become better and more of
a power hitter in that ballpark if he is able
to pull the ball.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
There, which I think he can.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
And the next point would be, I'm certain that they
have done their homework and talking to James, they feel
as though they know what they can do to help him.
But I think number one would be the permission to
strike out. I mean, if you really want to get
more power out of him, because I know he's made
a really big push over the last couple of years
to contact the ball more, which I like, but I
like it with two strikes, you know. I just think
maybe situationally, you just turn them loose a little bit more,
(03:11):
And I would start with that with the permission to
strike out. And really, yes, I'm not necessarily working on
pulling the ball all the time, but I think he's
so good as an athlete that he could learn to
really turn it loose early in the account and then
he could just go to battle, almost like what Rizzo
has done over the last several years. So you're getting
a really good baseball player that fits multiple needs. Yes,
(03:32):
in the outfield, but if you need a first baseman,
he's really good there too. And then the final point
to really, if you want more pop out of this
permission to strike out and then really work on the
pull side while you're still maintaining his ability to move
the ball in situations run around third, baseless and two outs.
I just got to score this point. He has the
ability to do those kind of things. So I think
(03:53):
that's what they were looking at when they acquired him.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
That's a really good idea, Joe, because I've seen Cody
last couple of years now. He's gotten better against breaking stuff,
which I like. But I have seen him cut down
in his strong maybe not necessarily always just with two strikes.
He has cut down for the most part on his strikeouts,
and he has put the ball in play the way
he can riund you and run yourself into some hits
that way. But again, it's the power. Maybe it is
(04:18):
just late power that he got away from. And just
turn them loose and let it fly and accept a
few more strikeouts if they come. You know, I'm surprised
because now they have it. I don't know if this
is valuable or not, Joe. They can measure bat speed, right,
I always thought of Cody Bellinger pre's shoulder injury as
a guy with tremendous bat speed. You saw how hyper
flexible he was and that bat would wrap all the
(04:38):
way around his shoulders. He was in the thirteenth percentile
in bat speed this year, and again he's not hitting
the ball hard. It's lugging percentage is way down from
where it was in twenty nineteen. I just think the
Yankees and I understand your point, and I like your point.
You know, keep your expectations a little lower on Cody Bellinger.
You know he's not an envy. He hasn't made an
All Star team since twenty nineteen. He's a good player.
(05:01):
The other point you made I like Joe is he's
a good big player. And if he asked me one
goal for the New York Yankees this offseason, forget about personnel,
just overall goal to me, it would be play cleaner,
fundamental baseball. And I think Doandre helps there no question.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
I mean with the right that's been a big push.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
We heard all of that during the playoffs, and me
reading being a post reader, I read it almost daily
when they when they recapped the previous season, certain things
that they have to do better at, things that they
thought were not good, and that fundamental component always comes up.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
He is a fundamental player, and you're right.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
His swing, my god, when he was really good a
couple of years ago playing against the Cubbies, I thought, God, how.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Could a guy swing that hard and not miss? And
he didn't.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
And the big thing with that, I think at that
point was as the it became more in vogue to
elevate fastball, the effectiveness of his swing went south. Basically,
he had more of an upper cut kind of a swing,
and I think he's done really hard to attempt to
kind of level that thing off, really stay inside the ball, etc.
Things that permitted more contact based on what he had
(06:01):
been And I think did he have some kind of
an injury to his hand under wrist or something.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It was the shoulder. I mean, famous shot heard around
the world was when he did the shoulder bump. But
kik Hernandez in the twenty twenty postseason, well, I think
that's right. You know, that loose limb guy lost that looseness.
The shoulder had to be surgically operated on and tighten
it up, and you quite naturally, you know, kind of
lost that flexibility at speed.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
No, no question.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
It's no different than you know when you're measuring clubhet
speed with a golfer.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
I mean that's probably where it's gone.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
But I maybe you'll never reachieve that number of that
ability to get it there that quickly. But I think athletically,
like I said, if you just let him go a
little bit, well, I don't know the guy. I mean,
I've always liked his game from a distance, and I'm
just surmising if I am the Yankees, these I want
to get back to some of that, and I think
this would be my approach with him regarding the clubheat speed. Again,
(06:53):
he's learned how to handle the ball up and again,
and that would be more like line drive apple kind
of a thing. But man, when he was he would
kill that stuff down, I mean kill it, and with
this big old swing, with this tremendous finish, the bat
would wrap around his back. I would watch him like,
would be amazed that he could almost seehim out of
control and not be out of control. So there's got
(07:16):
to be something there that they're looking at. And this
would be the kind of the beginning I would have
with him. I'm sure it's going to start down here
in Tampa early on, with some kind of workouts in
January February, prior to camp. But dang, if they could
get him even close to back where he had been,
I just think he fits perfectly with this group.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, the Yankees, I still contend they'd be better off
with Jon Soto, right, I mean, he was plan A.
They tried to sign him. I will contend they were
never going to sign him because the Mets simply were
not going to be outbid. But let's take stock so
far of what they've done. Would Plan B Joe okay,
because they wound up with Max Reid, Devin Williams and
Cody Bellinger. And now let's talk about the cost and
(07:58):
player capital that they have given up. They gave up
a guy with a bad four arm who's a free
agent to be It's Nester Quartz. They gave up a
five foot six second baseman with no power prospect that
durban the Brewers in that deal, and in this deal
for Bellinger, they gave up Cody Petite, who's a right
headed pitcher thirty years old, who's thrown eighty innings in
(08:21):
the big leagues in his life. I mean, what do
they give up? So you hit three former All stars
who have tremendously high ceilings very little, and I think
they've got one more move left as a matter of
whether you go want to attack first base or third base?
Best options? Christian Walker and Alex Bregman, what do you
think of Plan B so far?
Speaker 4 (08:40):
I am in. I'm in about all of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
We had talked about that or the one part about
it I think may have gotten away from them would
be Kyle Tucker.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
That was the guy I would really if I'm in
their shoes. I would really want number one that guy.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
To me telling you, man, people may disagree, but it's
not a whole lot of difference if there is between
him and Jan Soto for me, because this guy's maybe
more complete player than Soto is.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
His ability at.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
The plate is maybe not the eye that Soto has,
but dang the power and he could hit a left
handed pitcher man. So that's that was the one part
about it that I thought if the Yankees had got him,
that really would have set it up. I thought Bellinger
being second place now after that third base and first base.
(09:27):
I think that's part of this, the fact that they've
given up so little. They just have to be how
much comfort did they do? They have taken stuff on
right now salary wise, But I like Chisholm at second base.
I wouldn't even think about putting him back at third.
I mean, they keep trying to convince everybody that he's
a third baseman, but athletically I would want that fellow
at second base and then first. I like I told
(09:49):
you before, I'm a big Christian Walker fan. I have
been for years. I just when I first saw this
guy said, dang, I mean it's like a little ball
explodes off this guy's bat and then either I don't
think I think Bregman, if I had a bet, was
going to go back to Houston if I had a bet,
And that leaves Aeronauto Again, here's another guy similar to
Bellinger that has been trending differently compared to what he
(10:11):
had started out as. However, it's still better than what
they have or what they could conjure up in the
near future. I mean, I I'd really like to see
if they come in and I guess this is not
my money, but Walker and and like even in Aeronado,
combined with everything else they've done, that would be a
pretty outstanding off season.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
From what I hear, the Yankees not that sold on Aeronado. Yeah,
Bregman not that close with Houston. The Houston started out
way below market, and then once the Willia Dommas contract
was signed, that number is going to be close to two,
if not over two hundred. Red Sox Yankee still in
play there. That's gonna still need some time to play out,
(10:51):
but definitely options there are still on the board at
both corner positions in the infield. I expect the Yankees
to address one of those spots, Joe, you've read any good,
any good reading material lately?
Speaker 4 (11:03):
Uh? Yeah, reading a book about wokeness.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Okay, I can't remember the author's name, but anyway, it's
kind of interesting. I read about it in the New
York Post and then I began to read it. It's
very you know, clinical, I got to really stay with it.
Sometimes my inability to focus and concentrate based on my
years of having not read. So anyway, it's kind of
(11:26):
interesting book about the woke community and what it's meant
and where the world's going to right now. So that's
that's where I've been.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah. I just got through a speaking of dense, a
very dense book on the Civil War from Eric Larson,
who does a great job. Oh I love historical nonfiction,
great stuff, but you got to stick with it. And
speaking of dense reads, I just read the sixty three
page report that Major League Baseball put together after more
than a year long study of trying to figure out
(11:55):
what is going on with picture injuries. We need to
dive into this joke, some fascinating stuff that's in there.
We'll talk about that right after this break. Well, Joe,
(12:16):
I'm guessing that you had not read this sixty three
page before it just came out. It's not available at
your local bookstores quite yet, but it tells us a
lot of things we already know. Pictures are breaking down
a lot. There's more strikeouts in the game, batting average
going down. But there were some very interesting findings here,
and I'm going to start Joe with first of all,
the overarching reasons. They had three primary reasons why pictures
(12:41):
are breaking down as often as they are. Number one
was velocity. There's no question about this, just from a
kinetic point of view, they're putting more stress on their
arm the harder they throw. As hard as you train,
as strong as you get, you just can't strengthen that
ucl So that's breaking down from the result of that strain.
Optimizing stuff was number two. What does that mean? It
(13:02):
means we're in an age of technology where guys are
throwing bullpens and all they're doing is looking at their
metrics and they're trying to get more spin, more break,
and by doing that, you really can't just have a
touch and field bullpen. You know, you're maxing out on
every pitch. So there's that optimizing stuff. And number three
the game now is about maximum effort. It's about throwing
as hard as you can for as long as you can,
(13:23):
which is not very long. You know, these guys are
pitching shorter. So those are the three primary reasons, a
whole host of reasons, as you know, Joe, But what
do you think about those? Is the three primary reasons
why we can't keep pictures healthy?
Speaker 4 (13:35):
How much did this study cost?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I didn't get the total cost of it, but it
took more than a year. They interviewed more than two
hundred people. I mean everything from biomechanics to orthopedic surgeons,
to former pitchers, you name it, club executives, probably a
lot of interviews, and a lot of money spent on
airplane fares.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Well, that's called common sense, isn't it. And it's so
weird how that's going to actually play into our post
to the day thing. Yeah, I mean, of course it
all makes sense, and it's everything we've been talking about.
And again it's when you start trying to play have
human beings plays though they're being controlled by a joystick,
(14:17):
things are gonna are bad.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
It's gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
I mean, it's just common Yes, the velocity component of it.
You know the stuff in the maxed out bullpens, maxed
out everything.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
It's just from pitch one. They don't want the ball
in play.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
We got to start striking people out from the verious
first hitter of the game. And I hated that in
the dugout. I mean, and I've used the example James Shields.
James Shield's one of the best, most competitive pitchers. I've
ever had the pleasure of managing James. When he would
be throwing too hard in the first inning, I didn't
like that if I saw ninety four and then if
you got in a little trouble too many changeups in
(14:52):
the first inning, I really believe in. You build into
this thing like it's got a great a result in
a crescendo at some point we oftentimes you've heard about
in the past, Well, if I don't get this guy early,
if he's set into the game, I'm not going to
get them.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
And I guys like that.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Are really those are the dudes you want, and they're
the six, seven, eight inning guys that really make your
bullpen even better. So it's one thing the max staff
for whether it's your change up, your fastball, whatever, there's
this other pitch that you really want to highlight in
the game, and then how do you get to the
game and what this workout looks like and where all
your intent is. And it's not about pitching and feeling
(15:29):
and understanding and and really trying to save things to
the second or third times with the batting order. It's
just lay it all out there. And that's why these
guys concede when they want to take the ball from
them so early they concede.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
It's okay.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
We've trained them also to just to kind of be
like afraid of the third time through themselves.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
So this is all like it is. It's I don't.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Want to say brainwashing, because the numbers do kind of
support it, but it's it's a situation where we have
convinced these pitchers of all these components. So thus they're
throwing as hard as they can as long as they can,
doing whatever you want us to do. And now taking
the ball from them earlier is easier because everybody's bought
into this.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, I mean, listen, the system is set up to
encourage exactly the kind of pitching that is harming the game,
at least from a fan friendly point of view. We're
asking pitchers to pitch less often and pitch less when
they go out there, so you're encouraging this, you know,
let it eat mentality for everybody, including the starting pitchers.
The report also acknowledges this is going out in the
(16:31):
minor leagues and that's part of the problem as well,
and club executives acknowledged that they're even more conservative with
their pictures in the minor leagues. So two things are happening.
Those pitchers are not developing endurance and they're also again
being incentivized to max out because they're not pitching enough. No,
there's no and you know this was training, Joe. The
days the pictures running are over. There's no endurance training.
(16:55):
It is all burst training because pitching has become burst
and not craft.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Yes on all of that stuff. It's absolutely true.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
And this is another example of you know, what is progress.
In my mind's eye, the word progress or progressive doesn't
always mean or equals something that's better. I'll agree that
it's different, but I can't tell that it's necessarily better
when you're talking about the minor league this. I've had
this idea for the last couple of years when it
comes to developing pitchers in the minor leagues.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Why can't you just.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Really draft and develop a group that have more pitchability,
and then just draft and develop a group that has
more stuff. I think you have to like balance it
out to the point where you just don't go stuff
all the time. With the velocity, the velocity training, the
high amps, RPMs and bullpens, et cetera. There's a group
(17:48):
that maybe that app applies to. But then you've got
to get a bunch of guys, teach them how to pitch,
teach them how to pitch, encourage this group this like
I would say the range would be, I don't know,
anywhere eighty nine to ninety three ninety four. I mean,
when I started scouting in the mid eighties early eighties,
average velocity fastball, believe it or not, was eighty eight
miles an hour on a ray gun. On a jugs
gun an eighty five miles an hour on a ray gun.
(18:11):
The difference was that one measured at home plate, the
other one measured out of the pitcher's hands. It was
the same information, but it just it just popped up differently.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
So eighty eight so I could give a fifty.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Grade to an eighty eight mile an hour fastball off
my ygun might excuse me my speed gun.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Back in the day.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
So now I would say that average is probably about
ninety one, ninety two, ninety two point five something like.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
That in that area.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
So if you do that and you really teach a
legitimate I think, a legitimate change up and a legitimate
legitimate curveball, That's where I would start with all this
with my young pitchers. So I'd have this pitchability group,
and then I would have my stuff group, which I
probably would want to delegate or designate for bullpen. I
would probably want that where I want more guys with
pitchability pitching the first couple of several innings of the
(18:56):
game for me, Guys that I could teach and could
learn how to get through that third time through the
batdingguarter because they're not expending all their energy earlier in
the game. I I'd love to see that happen, like
to see somebody step out there and do that. Really
try to develop in two different ways. Yeah, I want
to strike out. I want my bullpen guys to come in,
run around second and third.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
One out. It's the ladder part of the game.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
I want that dude that could come out, Jake McGee,
who I know could come out and ride that high
fastball to a right handed hitter even though he's left
ten and they have no chance.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
I want that guy absolutely. But then I want James Shields.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
He's gonna throw hundred and eight hundred and ten hundred
and fifteen pitches and he's gonna pitch with like a
ninety two min hour fastball with a tremendous change up,
a developed curveball that he used to encourage him to
throw all the time that he would not throw often
enough for me. Then he got into the cutter, which
I didn't like nearly as much, but nevertheless he knew
how to pitch. So philosophically, create your philosophy. If you,
(19:51):
if somebody were to create the philosophy organizationally, and then
you go out and fulfill it, you're gonna get what
you what you asked for, a practice for, drafted for.
But if you just choose to go one route only,
that's not progress.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes, yeah, just a couple of numbers for you. The
average velocity now to foreseen fastball in the big leagues
is ninety four miles an hour two thousand and eight,
it was ninety one the Perfect Game National Showcase. So
that's your best high school arms. You show up at
these showcases. Right. If you go back to the five
years between fourteen and nineteen, twenty fourteen and twenty nineteen,
(20:24):
there was an average of five point six guys, this
is high schoolers who could hit ninety five on the
gun at these showcases. Last year there were thirty six.
I mean, that's just crazy in a short period of time.
So we know velocity is going up. It's being taught everywhere.
Let me give you three things, Joe to me that
to me, we're new. As I said, a lot of
(20:45):
this was just confirming what we know. Okay, a couple
of things stood out for me as being new. Number one,
March is the most dangerous time of year for pitchers.
Looking at the numbers and the players placed on the
IL pitchers, it's gone up since twenty seventeen eighty two percent.
Once you get to the after opening day, the rate
(21:08):
actually has gone down the last three years. Something is
happening recently where players are coming to camp and they're
blowing out. And one of the theories in this report,
and this is not for me. This is from orthopedic surgeons,
is that the desire to chase velocity and spin in
the off season is stressing arms. And the ramp up
(21:30):
to spring training is greater than it was before, and
they're doing everything in spring training as they would in
the middle of the season in terms of max effort,
and that's why we're seeing March is the most dangerous
time of year for shoulders and elbows.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Well, truly, it was a way more conservative method in
the off season guys. That's where guys would really be
careful with how much they threw, when they threw, and
they would gradually build into these higher velocity things. Number
of times on the mount how long did they throw
off a flat ground, even right down to their long
toss programs, which I really leaven. I don't even know
(22:04):
to what extent they're emphasized anymore, but I've always thought,
if you want to prove your arm strength, just throw
the ball far. Mark Langston was one of the best
I've ever seen at that, so yeah, I could. I
don't know that for I recollecting more recently. You're right
in regards to like, you know, the drive lines and
whatever guys are paying money to go to these places,
and of course you see these drills where they take
(22:27):
a hop skip and throw the ball as hard as
they can into a net.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
And then.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Compared to my god, like I said, guys will take
a couple of months off, they start training, like you know,
running or lifting weights or do something stretching, but then
they start building into their throwing gradually. And you really
were very cautious in spring training. How you got to
that point where they were ready to pitch five innings
as a starter in a minor even a minor league
(22:53):
and major league game. So the training has dramatically changed.
And absolutely I can see then to your other point,
you're talking about velocity among high school guys.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
My god, back when.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
I had scouted too, there's rare that you saw a
kid throw even ninety plus out of high school back
in the day. And then if you saw a kid
with a really good breaking ball, and maybe his velocity
might have been like eighty four eighty five, let's say
eighty eight being average at that time, but if he
had good spin on a breaking ball, that was easier
to project that this guy's going to improve his fastball
(23:24):
just based on his ability to spin it. So like
Dwayne Dwayne Wood and Scott at Dwayne Word had a
great arm with the Blue Jays in New Mexico. And
this dude was one of the few that was throwing
that high number out of high school. He was really
and Charlie Kerfield was another one. But other guys that
you would scout if they could just spin it, if
they could just spin it, you thought their fastball would
(23:45):
get better.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Speaking in fastballs number two, for me, this struck me
as a new novel identifying and defying the maximum effort.
And they did this by looking at the standard deviation
of fastballs. Okay, so what they found is over the
last seven years, that standard deviation keeps going down. It's
now at about one point oh six. I think it
(24:07):
is where you're getting closer to one. So if you
got to a one standard deviation, that basically you're throwing
the same way all the time, so that standard deviation
is dropping. What that tells you is there's no modulation,
there's no adding and subtracting. That's putting an identifier on
this maximum effort all pitches, all the time. Mentality that's happening,
(24:28):
and actually the lowest closer to one the standard deviation
happened in twenty twenty. I think about twenty twenty. That
was a sixty game season short ramp up to the
season expanded rosters, guys were pitching even shorter. So there's
a direct correlation between asking pitchers to pitch less and
maximum effort going into each pitch. They've identified that we
(24:51):
can measure that guys are maxing out more than they
ever have.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Yeah, it's just watching it.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
I mean that would be something that was a scouting
term even back in the day too.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Is he's a max effort guy.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I mean he would just bump and and like used
it from his toes to the hair on his head.
He would absolutely grind to throw that ball as hard
as he could. And that was always undesirable actually, because
you always felt as though something bad was going to
happen with that arm. As a guy through during the
course of the year. Easy gas was always a wonderful term.
Guys that did it easily that the ball just came
(25:23):
out of the hands so well that the delivery was
timed out well, the front foot of the arm arriving
at the same point, and then when he concluded his
chest at the plate, his head never moved and his
backfoot would turn over and he would get in a
good fielding position kind of when he concluded his throat.
That was like what you looked for, and you looked
(25:44):
how the arm worked behind the picture also regarding what
it did. How long the stroke was in the back
for me, didn't necessarily have to be long, because it
was some really good short armors back there too.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
But it was just a matter of how.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Fluid and easy that armstroke was and how much they
They really like the guys that really grunt to throw,
and there's still a couple of the left. I mean,
some have been successful, but all of that was something
that we measured and we were kind of like, didn't
like the max effort guys we liked. We always liked
the guys that did it more easily and the great
phrases to throw some easy gas with the bull just
(26:19):
jumps out of your hand, for everything is timed out well.
But I think as you encourage more velocity, you're going
to get more of the max separate guys and you're
going to come out of deliveries. And that was always
my thing with my starters. If I thought they were
coming out of the delivery later, and again when you
try to manufacture velocity. That was something they got from
Joe Coleman that when you have to be careful, when
guys start trying to manufacture able velocity as opposed to
(26:41):
just letting velocity happen, that's when things normally broke down
and command left them.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Point number three that I found new or at least interesting,
And this is no offense to the former players. They
talked to some of the pitching coaches, the pitching coordinators,
they talked to guys who played the game. I put
a lot more faith when it comes to this talking
about injuries in the medical people, the team trainers, and
(27:07):
especially the orthopedic surgeons. That's where I want my information
because the game is so different. We're not going back
to nineteen eighty six because we have so many ways
to train guys and so much more knowledge about how
the body works. So I want to listen to the
orthopedic surgeons, and what they said was kind of scary
to me that, let's face it, we just talked about velocity, Joe,
but we know that the use of fastballs actually keeps
(27:28):
going down to a record low less than half of
the pitches now are fastballs and major league baseball. So
spin is up? Why spin up? Because everybody's chasing spin,
and they're chasing the shape of the pitches. So there's
a whole lot more of grip's strength that's in play.
There's a whole lot more of supernation and pronation, whatever
you have to do, arm angles, dropping the sweeper becoming
(27:49):
such a popular pitch. And what the orthopedic has said is,
and this is not more than one, they're seeing shoulder
injuries and rib cage injuries like they've never seen before.
We're talking about fractured ribs throwing a baseball. We're talking
about tear of the terrorist muscle. We're talking about scap injuries.
We're talking about the capsule, the muscles that really stabilize
(28:11):
the capsule of the shoulder now that are tearing and breaking.
And the orthopedis are saying this is because the way
people are chasing pure stuff, not just velocity, that I
found especially interesting makes sense.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
One of the tenants in the past was always to
develop fastball command first.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
I mean, you really did not want to move one of.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Your minor league pitchers at all until they really learn
how to develop command. Of their fastball, because that was
the one pitch that everything always worked off of. And
when you had a guy that really knew could throw
a strike when he wanted to throw a strike. To me,
that was always a definition of a major league picture
was he could throw his fastball for a strike when
he wanted to. There's times you don't want to, you
wanted to be off, to play whatever, but to develop
(28:56):
fastball command first. And when you do develop fastball command
first and know where your fastball is going, then that's
the kind of guy that I I think you can't
pitch the third time to the batting order and can
throw one hundred pitches more easily. And again going back
to the stress test of putting on the arm so
much by all the different contortions that we're asking the
body to do, I'd love to see a regeneration of
(29:19):
that and this and the orthopedic guys know what they're
talking about, but also so does Marcel Latchman. You know,
guys that have been around a long time, really outstanding,
established pitching coaches. I would love to see worphing together
of some of the guys that are still with us
that taught pitchers for so many years and were so
successful on so many different levels, with so many different.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Kinds of guys.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Why would you not want to bring together the science
of the whole thing and the actual practical application that
a lot of these pitching coaches were able to afford.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I mean, everybody's talking.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
About brett Strom, right, Strowoery's been around for one hundred years,
so guys like that. I'd like to see what they
have to say and overlay that with what all the
scientific or medical communities talking about. Because I'm telling you,
eyeball matter, field matters, common sense matters. So I don't
know how much of that is being applied to this,
(30:10):
but I'd love to see because when it comes down
to it, we have been so taught to just believe
numbers and believe the science only, and we've been taught
to not believe experience and eyeballs anymore.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
I'd like to see it over late.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Well, the bottom line is you know this, Joe. The
incentives are set up now to have this system in place,
and if I'm a pitcher, I realize what the risks are.
I see people, you know, blowing out their elbows.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
I get it.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
But I'm signing up for it because I need to
throw hard because hard harder is better, Throwing faster is better,
Spinning the ball is better. All the numbers show that,
so performance and salary all are incentivized advising pictures and
the system, the way clubs use pictures is all set
up for this to be sustainable. I'm not saying sustainable
in terms of health, but I don't see it change
(30:56):
because this is the way the system is set up.
So the recommendation from this report is to find a
way basically to modulate pitching. And maybe this report says
one way to do that, and it might be the
only way is to start looking at roster rules and
playing rules to incentivize teams and pitchers to modulate their pitching. Now,
(31:18):
that could be as simple as dropping the number of
pitchers on a roster. You drop that to eleven. It
could be that to get away from this roster churn,
because there's so many guys now who throw over nineties
that you know, guys with options are going back and
forth to drop of a hat. Soon as they pitch
two innings and they can't pitch for another couple of days,
they go down to the minors. Somebody else comes up
(31:38):
put some more rules on keeping guys down to the minors.
If you're sending them down the penalties like if you
take your starter out before the fifth inning, you lose
your DH. There was some talk, and people get carried
away because anytime you bring up an idea, they think
it's going to be implemented. Having a pitch right, you
must pitch five or six innings minimum in a game.
That's not happening. But this is the conversations that are
(32:00):
happening that the way the game is set up right now,
things are not going to change unless there are structural
changes to the system of how baseball is played. What
do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Yeah, I'm you know, I'm just I love the organic
changes that I don't like. I don't like legislation in
order to attempt to change this thing. And again, the
game's been pretty darn good for a long time. We're
talking about one specific problem right now. Then you're going
to all of a sudden change the format completely. I
don't like it, frankly, I don't.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I think I can agree Joe that if nothing changes
this system, it's actually getting exaggerated. Pictures are pitching less
and less and less, and they're using more and more
pictures in the course of the season, and batting average is
going down and strikeouts are going up.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
That's looking to change philosophy.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
It really comes down to what we're teaching and how
we're teaching in and what the expectations are of those teachings.
If you just want swing and miss only, if that's
what the front office wants, then yeah, you're going to
probably have to do some things in order to mitigate,
ameliorate whatever the word is right that you want to do.
But I listen, there's just the way it's being taught.
We've just talked about that and what's being asked of
(33:08):
these pictures to do, which is basically impossible if you're
a human being. That's that's the biggest part of the problem.
I mean, you normally have a lot of really good information.
Is there like a study done on the longevity of
a major league picture, like how many years in the
big leagues now compared to like say twenty years ago.
Just how many years there's an average major league picture
(33:29):
pitching the big leagues now compared to them. I'm just
curious about that and how the injury plays into that,
because back in the day too, Guys wouldn't even say anything.
They wouldn't say that there arm hurts because they knew
they're going to be replaced. There was such a glut
of minor league players and really good ones that were
willing to or they're willing to take your place. I
prefer a paradigm shift in philosophy.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
That's what I.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Prefer, and this is what baseball prefers that too, Joe.
It's a matter of how you get there, and I
think that's the crux of the matter is it's not
going to get there organically, because, as I just said,
on the amateur level, if you don't throw ninety as
high school kid, you're not getting colleges to look at you.
If you're fifteen and you're getting scouted in Latin America,
you have to throw above ninety or else you're not
(34:14):
going to get signed.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Doesn't it have to occur individually within organizations, Like who's
the first organization going to say, listen, we're going to
do this. It's such a copycat thing. I mean, we've really,
I think, devolved into the sameness. And I've talked about
this before. Everybody wants to be like everybody else. Even
back down to the study, Why didn't the Yankees have
a specific study or the Daughters have a specific study,
or the Mariners have a specific study just to suit
(34:37):
their needs and what they think or believe.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
It's always this you need a large sample size, though,
I mean, they have access to the whole cross section
of people to find this problem. So I'd rather have
that information that somebody working in a silo in one organization. Now,
what you do with it should be individualized. But I
like the fact that they didn't go had the lens
really wide open to get this info.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah, I guess I'm not a post of that. But
at the end of the day, the Mariners have to
make up their own minds, the Yankees have to make
up their own minds. Everybody got to make it, but
nobody does. Nobody makes up their own minds anymore. Becomes
this group think kind of a thing. And I think
that's where it really breaks down. Somebody's gonna have to
have the courage to say this hasn't worked. I know
what everybody else is saying, but we're going to do
this instead, And this is why. And that's what I'm saying.
(35:20):
If you take the science about the whole thing and
then get some people with actual experience of doing this
and overlay it.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
That to me would be the.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Most interesting way to break this cycle, because it can't
remain this way, and it's not gonna work this way
regardless of this beautiful study and everything. Unless somebody takes
action and is strong enough to go away from the
over overwriting philosophy of an industry, you're gonna end up
doing the same thing over and over again. I guess
that's the definition of insanity.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, last year, this twenty twenty fourth season, there were
two hundred and eighty one Tommy John surgeries for professional
pitchers minor leagues and major league. Well that's kind of
sixty nine percent in the last decade. So that's one
Tommy surgery for every day of the championship season. Every
day at the championship season, somebody is getting cut on
(36:10):
that elbow. So it's an issue. It's not an issue
in terms of performance. It's harder to hit than ever
before the major leagues. It's an issue because pitchers are
not staying healthy. We owe it to them to try
to keep them healthy, and it's not producing a fan
friendly game where the ball just is not play. So
(36:31):
what happens? Listen, this is just the beginning identifying a problem.
The answers are not easy, but hopefully there are some
There is some change in philosophy going forward, because I
when you extrapolate this out, it just gets worse. To me. Joe,
we talked about gifts for your baseball fan. If you
haven't purchased any, I've got a couple of ideas. We'll
(36:52):
talk about that right after this. Welcome back to the
Book of Joe podcast. That's me Tom Berducci with Joe Madden. Joe,
I might have asked you this before. Do you have
(37:13):
a favorite gift growing up as a kid that you
got on Christmas?
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Easy that blew you away? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
I just brought it up on the golf course the
other day, my flexible flyer I slid, yeah, with the
chrome bumper on it. That actually I did touch with
my tonguer lips one time and it did stick, and
it's kind of scared the crap out of me.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
But that thing that survived.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
I ran into a one of those wooden horses that
they used to block the streets off, so I did
my sight swiped it and it broke the side of
my sled, but I, you know, got it back home
and my dad was so talented he put a brace
on it, put it back together, so that flexible Flyer.
I remember waking up and it was standing up against
(37:53):
the wall and they were beautiful. The construction was beautiful,
the decal, the sticker, the logo, the emblem, whatever was outstanding.
Speaker 4 (38:01):
Flexible Flyer wins. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
That was back when they had a lot of snow too,
so I'm sure you got to use it a lot.
I remember this toy I got called a Sandlot slugger.
This guy where his young kid wearing jeans and a
T shirt. You push down on his head and he
would swing the bat. And it came with a ball
on a tee and the harder you push down on
(38:25):
his head, the part of the ball went. I don't
know why, but I was very little in the love
baseball and you could use it anywhere and annoy your
sister's with it. So that's what I did. But I
was looking at the I don't know if you saw
this the other day, the home run that Freddie Freeman
hit the Grand Slam, walk off Grand Slam Game, War
of the World Series, Great moment, right, did you see
it just sold at auction?
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Joe?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
First of all, it was captured by a ten year
old kid grandstand the bleachers of Dodger Stadium. It was
a cute story because the kids got braces on and
his parents tell them, Hey, we're going to go to
the orthodontis and take your braces off, and they surprised
him by going straight to Dodger Stadium, not to the
orthodontic and he winds winds up with this ball that
Freddy Freeman was all Kirk Gibson on baseball history with
(39:09):
the home Running Game one. Did you see it just
sold at auction? Joe?
Speaker 4 (39:12):
I did not.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
It went for one point five six million dollars. Come on,
ten year old kid goes to a ball game, gets
a ball that becomes worth one point five to six
million dollars. How about that?
Speaker 4 (39:26):
That's wow, That's that's staggering. Right.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
It does not. It does not top the all time
record for a baseball at auction, and that was by
no other than shohe Otania his home run when he
went he got his fiftieth home run to make it
fifty to fifty for the first time in baseball history.
That sold at auction point three nine two million dollars.
(39:51):
Think about that. The Dodgers this year paid Otani two
million dollars in salary. Don't forget sixty eight million was
the first he was paid two million dollars in salary
at a baseball where it's twenty five bucks, sold for
double his salary of the Dodgers, what.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
Did that banana sell for? That piece of art, the
banana tape with the with the duct tape, the.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Dude duct tape. Yeah, I saw. They talked to the
guy at the bedego who sold the darn thing. He's like,
what right, Yeah, that was millions.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Right, And the guy that bought it ate the banana.
So I mean, it's like who knows, I mean, the
price of anything anymore.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
I love the idea.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I love the part about the parents telling the kid
who's going to get his braces taken off and then
all of a sudden that occurred. That's the magical part
of you know, parents taking kids the ball games, and
and that kind of impression will last forever. But I listen,
it's just it's like anything else is why do you
pay Soto seven? You know, seven hundred and some million dollars.
It's just the price of doing business right now. And
(40:46):
that's what happens with these baseballs, and somebody, somebody has
to have that item. You know, I wanted. I wanted
a new set of irons the other day, so I
did that. It's just it's what somebody, somebody's willing to
pay for it. It's interesting.
Speaker 4 (40:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
For me, it doesn't really float my boat in a sense,
or I don't really doesn't move my needle at all,
because I just that goes in and out of my brain.
But for the kid catching the ball because he went
to get braces or thought he's getting his brace was
taken off, I think that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Well, I mean, I'm glad you brought that up with one.
So do people say, well, he's not worth it?
Speaker 4 (41:16):
Right?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
He is worth it because he put himself out on
the open market and somebody paid him that money. That's
the definite definition of worth. It boggles my mind. But
people are like, that's too much. Somebody paid it, that's right.
I mean, for instance, Joe, what do you The all
time record for any piece of baseball memorabilia was the
(41:40):
jersey that Babe Ruth wore in nineteen thirty two at
the Friendly Confines at Wrigley Field, the cold shot home run.
You know what that jersey went for? It sold four
months ago, by the way, nineteen thirty two cold shot
jersey at Babe Ruth all time record just taking.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
A stab five million, five million.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
You're not even close, really, twenty four point one two
million dollars. You say it's not worth it, right, Well,
it was to somebody.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
Is that the same jersey that Costanza wiped was all over?
He sat there because he was trying to get fired
by the Yankees, and s Steinbrender said, it's about time.
Just a chubby little guy with skinny legs running around
the base is something like that. Listen, that's that's I
didn't know that. I did not know that at all.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Costanza didn't wash it, and you have a shrink on him.
It was so I came up with some ideas for
the if you're wanting some last minute gift ideas. MLB
dot com. You know they run these auctions. You see
balls taken out of the game, right, and they put
it authenticity sticker on it, and you know you can
bit on it. By the way, the ball that Aaron
Judge dropped.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
I heard that one.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, forty three grand. The Dodgers did not sell that,
by the way. That was MLB auction, So you could
buy Aaron Judge's forty fourth home run ball four his
career number three oh one, so there's not really any
history attached to it. The current bid on that is
(43:08):
five grand, okay, so you'd bring at least five grand
if you want to get somebody as a as a
Christmas present. Aaron Judge's forty fourth home run ball a triple,
just an ordinary triple. If there is such a thing
for sho Hey Otani a ball he hit for a triple,
It's got a bid on it right now, eighteen hundred bucks,
so you've got to go higher than that. And there's
(43:29):
a beat that Otani used that he autographed as well,
game used bat and he autographed. It sounds like a
good gift for somebody, you know, Joe who's a big
O'tani fan. Right well, you better bid quickly because the
bidding closes on December the nineteenth, and the minimum bid
is fourteen nine and ninety five dollars. I think this
(43:51):
is all points to the fact that baseball is in
a really good place right now, Joe, You're spending fifteen
thous on an Otani autographed bet.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
These are the kind of items you need for your auction,
items that your foundation, And I.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Think, yeah, how about that that right exactly?
Speaker 3 (44:04):
I mean that's if you get in the right city,
and you have to have a big part of getting
that kind of dose having the right auctioneer. These guys
make or break your evening with your foundational dinners and stuff.
We've gone through that with respect ninety foundation. But that's
what I think when you say all that, and when
you get really really good stuff and you have the
right crowd with the right auctioneer. And I'm just talking
(44:26):
about online right now. And I guess maybe online could
actually be a pretty good auctioneer based on the number
of people that see it. But that's the difference maker.
So again, with somebody's willing to pay, is what it's worth.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, the Freeman Ball, the bidding went crazy, like in
the last thirty or thirty minutes or last hour have
been about it was under a million to wound up
going at one point five million. So there you go.
If you've got say at least twenty thousand on you.
You can buy a home line ball by Aaron Judge,
a ball at at In for a triple, and an
ATONI signed bat. There you go.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
I guess they're also counting on appreciation at some point,
right that is that supposed to be like the grand
kid's college education, because that time it's going to be
at least one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year
to go to Harvard or Yelle at one of those places,
or Princeton where you're located.
Speaker 4 (45:15):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
You never know. You never know because the tany home
run ball I said, went for more than four millions
at the record. The old record was three million, and
that was Mark Maguire's seventieth home run ball. Really sure
that's appreciated much over the years.
Speaker 4 (45:31):
Joe, No, I agree with you on that one percent percent.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
So you kind of teased your your closing line here, Joe.
I think it has something to do, if I'm correct here,
with trusting data as much as we do in society today.
But who do you got with the words of the day.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
I don't have an actual contributor.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
It's just from a famous story movie Miracle on thirty
fourth Street, and appropriately. Yeah, all right, I wanted to
go with the Christmas name right now, and wow, we
nailed it early and simply put.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
And I love this because you know how I am.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
I mean, I do believe in numbers and I like
them and I want some direction, but I also believe
in people a little bit more and things that you
don't understand. So faith is believing in things when common
sense tells you not to. Faith is believing in things
when common sense tells you not to, things that you
just can't see, but you have to believe they're out there.
(46:26):
And this, of course, this has to deal with faith,
saying a religious method right here even and just when
it comes down to believing in Santa Claus or not,
but you have to rely on common sense. I mean
sometimes it just comes down to it. And we're talking
about the pitching right now. For me, obviously, everything's saying,
you know, trying to throw real hard is not good.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
It's just not good.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
And then you want pictures to last longer, So it's
going to come down to a different method of training.
You just can't continue this method and expect a different result.
It's just not going to work. And you talk about
hitting you're talking about hitting being a dearth of hitting
right now, Well, if in fact you teach a different
method of pitching, even if there's not, the ball is
(47:09):
put in play more, which is exactly what not hits,
but ball being put in play more and more reliance
on defense and good old fashioned positioning, because now we're
pitching at a lot of velocity number but still hard
to hit. It's not easy to hit, man, it's just
not easy. But the development of the fastball more are
more i guess, pedestrian fastball like ninety three, ninety four,
(47:30):
and learning just a different method of doing this, which
is a more of a tried and true method.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
So then common sense would tell.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
You that pitchers pitching that manner, you're probably gonna get
greater longevity out of them, both in terms of career
and number of innings during appearance. And on the other side,
you're looking for more offense, ball being put in play,
maybe not necessarily equating hits, but it should. There'll be
more greater batting average. But maybe you're gonna get what
you want. You're gonna get healthier pitchers and a little
(48:00):
bit more offense, and then you're gonna arrive at what's
called baseball that doesn't a whole lot of change, but
maybe just needs to learn from its past.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
I like it, Joe.
Speaker 4 (48:09):
Faith.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
It's a great word any time of year, but especially
at this time of year. So thanks for that and
a great job. We'll see you next time on the
Book of Joe.
Speaker 4 (48:18):
All right, brother, take care of Merry Christmas.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Merry Christmas to everybody.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!