September 26, 2023 • 52 mins
The Book of Joe Podcast with hosts Tom Verducci and Joe Maddon is counting down the final days of the regular season. Teams are coming down the stretch and Joe wants to know how the Astros are better on the road than they are at home. We touch on the future of Mike Trout and what happens with the Angels. No managers have been fired this season, but will that change when the season is over? Wrapping up with the future of Terry Francona and the similarities between him and Joe, we also get an update on Joe's cars and his recent favorites to drive.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeart Radio.
#fsr
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, welcome back to the latest edition of the
Book of Joe podcast. And it is the final week
of the regular season. And Joe, you sound as if
(00:24):
maybe you can cut a rap album. I don't know,
but maybe the length of the season is catching up
to you here on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
It is. It is. You know, we always get these
little colds this time of the year. It's playoff weather.
I've been through a long season of golf and right
now I think it's kind of catching up to me.
The weather is starting to change a bit. Driven down
to Tampa, two day trip, stopped in Charlotte, eventually made
it to Tampa. So the Bucks and Eagles last night.
Pretty impressive job by the Eagles. So yeah, I'll be fine.
(00:53):
It's just that time of the year.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, it's time to come up big, as Justin Verlander
did in the first game of a huge series between
the Astros and the Mariners.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
And Joe.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
You know, the American League West, inside and out, and
so that's where I want to start with our focus here.
We've got three teams, Texas, Seattle, Houston, three really good teams.
One of them is going home because I think the
Toronto Blue Jays looked like they have a good foothold here,
and I have the Rangers in the playoffs here they
(01:23):
have a three game lead in the lost column with
six to play. They've righted the ship here. So we've
got Seattle and Houston. For me, that's what it's going
to come down to, handicap those three teams, who do
you like, who you don't like? Coming down here in
the final week of the season in the Ale West.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, I'm not trying to be a front runner, but
like you said, Texas looks like they have figured things
out again. It's just I always think about in two
thousand and five when the White Sox win World Series.
We were playing in Chicago in the beginning of September.
In Chicago, they were awful. They were absolutely awful. As
the Angels went to the playoffs that year, we almost
(02:02):
we ended up losing to them in the play They
went to the World Series and won it, but they
were terrible. They were absolutely terrible. But all of a
sudden they flipped the switch. They're pitching was that good.
They turned things around, and of course they had a
good team, so that happens. Sometimes you got to go
through these bad moments and then if you regain traction,
here we go. And I think that's what Texas has done.
They've regained their mojo, they've regained traction. They've got a
(02:22):
lot of good things going on there. Montgomery's been pitching
extremely well, obviously, and so I think if they're in
the other two teams, again, it's a coin toss, but
it's the opposite there. Houston has the pedigree. They have
the pedigree, they've done it before. They got this weird
record this year where they're better on the road, correct,
(02:43):
which I don't get that I mean, and again it's
syntithetical to the years of banging on trash cans. And
I think they do play on the road towards the
end of the season, correct, Houston does.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, they're done with the home schedule.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
They actually finished under five hundred in their home schedule. Now,
in the history of baseball, there's in more than four
hundred postseason teams teams that made the postseason in full seasons,
not counting as shortened twenty twenty or eighty one seasons.
Only one of them had a losing record at home.
Is two thousand and one, Braves were one game under,
(03:16):
so it's very unusual to have a losing record at
home and still be a playoff team.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
The Astros might be able to pull that off.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Well, I think they are. I mean, I guess what
I'm saying is, I think they will be based on
if they've been doing that all year, I don't see
any reason why that trend should discontinue. And again, I
just think the Mariners are just they pushed so hardy
it back into this thing. They went you know, south
through a bit. They were hot. Absolutely, they were hot,
But then again, it's about getting hot at the right time.
So I'm going with Houston and Texas, the two Texas
(03:47):
teams getting their way in there. I agree with the
Toronto component of this thing. So I just think that
eventually you're going to see shadow looking from the outside in.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, they face I think they have to win the
next two against the Astros here after losing the opener.
My quick take on these three teams in the Al West. Texas, Yeah,
I agree with you. They've righted the ship here. A
lot of that is Bruce Bochi is just I mean,
he's going to the Hall of fame. He knows how
to set the right tone with this team, no panic,
(04:17):
and it is a veteran team, so you don't expect
them to dig a bigger hole once they do hit
that eventual skid. One thing concerns me about Texas Joe
in the second half. Their bullpen is twenty sixth in
the major leagues and the second half of the season
era is over five. Now, this team is tremendous offensively,
and their path to make you run of the postseason
(04:38):
really is on the backs of their offense.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Reminds me a little bit of Philadelphia last year.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
It's good enough to do that, as you know, it's
a hard way to navigate the postseason if you really
want to rely on offense. But I do think their
offense is that good where they can be a scary
team because they're loaded up and down the lineup.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, I've been through it though. I mean, yeah, I
do like her. I do like their team offensively speaking, again,
there's something that I kind of thought I figured out
a little bit when I'm still there with Seeger. I
don't I mean really, I would not throw the guy's
strike the whole playoffs. I wouldn't throw him a strike.
I would make him adjusted to me, I would make
him swing out of pitches outside of the zone. And
(05:18):
then I take my chances with everybody else. I know
there's other good guys in the lineup. I get it.
But then when you start applying pressure in other areas,
it makes a difference with the group. You know, the
second basement's outstanding. You know the catcher has done a
really good job. But I just think that Seger is
really the straw right there to be very careful when
(05:40):
I play them, you know, pitching wise. Yeah, And the
thing about that is it's so antithetical boats, it's so
good with the bullpen. So it also indicates, you know,
regardless of how good you can manage a particular part
of the game, if you don't have the right players,
it makes it makes a problematic So those are really
important things to me. Is my bullpen in the playoff situation.
(06:01):
And if I'm relying on hitting only, you're going to
run into some hot pitching staffs, and that's they could
still do a number on you your offensive side of
the ball. So that would be my concern with them
moving forward. If the bullpen is not somewhat fixed and
becomes a little bit more us porous. It's going to
(06:21):
be difficult, very difficult, because good pitching will stop that,
I believe.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, my take on Houston is the pedigree is just
too good to ignore here. And you don't like to
think teams can just turn it on and turn it off,
but they know how to win ball games when they
need to win ball games. There's just so much playoff experience.
They've been in just about every imaginable situation. Think about this.
They went through a three to nine stretch where they
(06:47):
lost three series to the Royals and the A's literally
the two worst teams in baseball. They look like they're
hanging by a thread. They walk into Seattle on the road,
give the ball to Justin Verlander, and he takes the
ball to the ninth inning.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
How about this joke. Justin Verlander in that opener of the.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Three game series with Seattle, his average fastball velocity for
Steamer was ninety three point five. That's the lowest he's
had in any game since twenty sixteen, and he took
the ball to the ninth inning through an absolute gem. Oh,
by the way, the Mariners went zero for thirteen against
(07:27):
the guy with his worst quote unquote velocity since twenty sixteen.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
That to me speaks to who the Astros are.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
You trust the guys with the pedigree, and no team
has more a playoff pedigree right now than do the Astros.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, his breaking ball is so good right now, and
I don't even know what the Scott report necessarily is
with the Mariners fastball versus breaking ball. But again, he's
whatever he's lost there, he's picked up in his pitchability,
just knowledge is want to all that kind of stuff
is there. But last time I saw him on the two,
but I thought his breaking ball was really sharp. And
(08:04):
again he's got this uh, this inner flame thatf you have.
The last point about the Astros too, is that, Okay,
I think they're going to get to the playoffs, but
I think it's going to be hard to really get
deep into the playoffs just because and it is just
because they've been doing it for so many years now
to really fan the flames to the point where they
get hot enough internally mentally wanting it badly enough and
(08:27):
understid that's not an indictment against them. It's just difficult
as human beings to get to that level. You know,
I see I see Texas figuring it out a little
bit more than Houston does right now, just based on
the fact they haven't been there in a while, and
the and you know, boats there, the start they got
off to, all that stuff I think is going to
come back to them a little bit. So I like Texas,
even though I just say what I said about their bullpen,
(08:48):
and you could pitch them a little bit, but I
was just from a humanitarian perspective, a human perspective. I
think their their flames are going to be a little
bit hotter to get this done than Houston's.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
As for Seattle, you mentioned their offense.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
What I don't like about their offenses, there's just too
much swing and miss. So you look at the highest
strikeout rates in baseball, you've got Minnesota.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Number one and Seattle number two. That just too much
swing and miss.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And a guy like Verlander who has become, it really
has been for a long time, a complete pitcher. You know,
I threw it out there about his four seam fastball
because we always think a JV at that high riding
for seamer top of his own upper nineties. But man,
he knows how to pitch, as he mentioned the breaking
stuff is really good, so he can exploit a lineup
that has holes in it, swings and misses to be found.
(09:38):
And that's that scares me about Seattle. The other thing
here is it's generally a really good pitching staff. It's
a top three staff top to bottom of the major leagues,
but they rely a lot on young pitching. And the
Seattle starting pitchers in September are seven to nine with
a four to seven to seven era. You've got guys
(09:59):
like Kirby, who's gonna get the ball in the upcoming
game here, even Gilbert little bit, but some of those
guys now are at that point where that can they
hold it long enough to get this team into the postseason,
And September has not been good for a team that
really to me, their pitching is great, but it.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Hasn't been as good as it was the first five.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Months Uncharted Waters right. That's why I like when I
was with the Rays and Hite to go historical on everybody,
but I really wanted my starting pitching staff to throw
a thousand innings. I did. I really wanted to get
as close to two hundred out of each starter as
we possibly could, and sometimes exceeded, which we did. The
point is when you get to that level of competency
(10:42):
regarding mentally and physically being able to pitch that late
into the season successfully, I think that's a difference maker.
It's hard again, everybody wants to rely on bullpens. Now,
everybody wants to turn the ball over after five innings
or four plus whatever. I still like the tried and
true method to really develop thoroughbreds guys that can do
(11:02):
those kinds of things, and I think it can be developed.
I don't understand. The only thing preventing it, I think is,
if anything, the insistence upon throwing as hard as you
possibly can all the time, and then go out there,
you know, dial it up from first pitch as long
as you can as hard as you can. We'll bring
somebody else in. As opposed to pitchability, where guys can
go six six plus innings on a more consistent basis,
(11:25):
and it becomes a badge of honor when you're a
starting pitcher that you do throw two hundred are really
close to it on an annual basis. I still think
it's desirable to nurture that. Again, am I living in
the past. I don't know why. It's just it's very capable.
We're just not nurturing it now. Two ways we're not
permitting it to happen minor league wise, pushing guys a
(11:47):
little bit farther in innings pitch the number two by
insisting upon a method of just trying to throw the
ball as hard as you can and spinning the ball.
I think those are two things that are really preventing
the two hundred any pitcher.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
It's a great point, Joe. I think you're absolutely dead
right about that. It's a chasing veloc and chasing swings
and misses on the mound. So that's why you see
abbreviated starts. Guy's not going deep into games. Walk rate
hasn't gotten any better, strikeout rate has. But you know,
I did a game last night for FS one the
Giants and watching Logan web pitch.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
What a treat.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I mean, he's throwing ninety two at best, but the
movement on his sinker and changeup is just crazy. And
this is a kid who does not want to come.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Out of the game. Leads the major leagues and innings pitch.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
He pitched the ninth inning and had a one run lead,
two runners on base, nobody out.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
He was not coming out of that game.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
He threw three straight ground balls two hundred and sixteen
innings into the season to get out of a ninth
inning gym and win the darn game. I mean, come on,
we need more of those kind of pitchers. That was
a treat to watch.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Isn't it. I mean, and again I don't. I do
believe it's out there. I do believe it's out there.
It's just it's just methodology. How are we going to
go about this? What are we going to permit? What
are we going to nurture? What do we think wins?
I mean, if the point analytics shifts to the point
where the starting picture becomes more necessary, then you'll see
organizations attempt to nurture and build up arm strength and
(13:14):
number of pictures thrown and get guys into mornings on
an annual basis. That's just an analytical shift. If everything
remains the same regarding the way front offices are constructed,
I do believe that. I believe, I know it. I've
seen it. I believe it. I know it. It has
it's going to come down to again, different training method
a different mindset, paradigm shift, in regards to how we
(13:36):
treat our minor league pictures and what we expect out
of them. And he even goes back to high school
and college, you know where they're they're just teaching kids
to crow up and throw as hard as they can.
That's got to go away. I was talking to a
trainer the other day, really my favorite trainer in all
of baseball. I'm not going to mention his name, but
he was telling me how arm injuries are so severe.
It's almost the arms are blowing up based on the
(13:56):
training methods employed today. And that's that's where you're seeing
this radical shift in the number of surgeries. And not
only that when they do get in there, the fact
that the arms are blown up so badly, these are
the kind of things that have to be addressed. And
there's only one reason. It's the methods being taught though,
the stress that's being put on the arm based on,
like you said, velocity missing bats. At the end of
(14:17):
the day, I wish I remember the pitcher that was
talking about pitching the contact. I wanted to applaud him.
You pitch the contact, then when you get to get
to two strikes, then you try to strike somebody out
in the right situation. But you can't strike somebody out
with zero strikes on him.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Hey, Joe, as long as we're talking about the American
League West, I want to ask you about Mike Trout.
He talked to the media actually for the first time
in a couple of weeks here this week. And a
lot of speculation about whether Mike Trout will want to
leave force a trade from the Angels. Now he has
a full note trade clause and nothing's happening unless Mike
(14:52):
Trout wants it to happen. He was somewhat and you
know Mike so well, he's not going to rock anybody's boat,
and he's not going to answer a direct question about, Hey,
do you want to play here or do you want
to be.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
He said something.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
He's going to sit down with Artie Moreno and with
John Carpino, as he does at the end of every season.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
He's going to go home kind of clear his mind.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
You know, Mike likes to get away from the game
with his Eagles and his hunting and all that in
the offseason and then get ready for spring training in
an Angel's uniform. He wasn't committing to anything, but that's
Mike Trout. I mean, he's not going to rock anybody's boat, Joe.
I don't know your take on Mike, but I cannot
see Mike Trout saying get me out of here.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I could be totally wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Maybe he's harboring something underneath the surface here, but he's
such a loyal guy to the Angels, the way they've
treated him from the day they drafted him, after so
many teams passed on Mike. You know, I just don't
know if Mike Trout wants to go somewhere else. Does
he want to win absolutely? Does he want to force
a trade? That's a different question.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I mean, I and please take this the right away.
I'm not identifying myself in any way, shape or form
to his talent level. I'm missed talking about geography. We're
from the same neck of the woods. Basically, he's a
little bit into New Jersey, south of Philadelphia. I'm a
little bit north just where we come from. Yeah, I
don't see him doing those kinds of things. I don't
see him being demanding. When you're raised in a small
(16:18):
town like that and the humility that surrounds that, it's
difficult to ever arrive at the point where you think
things are all about you. So I don't see him
doing that. I could see him having a conversation. I
could see him just to Artie and John relaying his feelings,
his thoughts. But I just it's antithetical again to his
(16:41):
personality and where he comes from, his parental background and
his friends and his coaches. It's hard, man, It's hard to,
I think, to step away from that. Those roots stills upbringing.
So yeah, I could see him wanting to speak with
and finding out what they think more than forcing onto
(17:01):
them what he thinks.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Well said, Hey, we're going to take a quick break, Joe,
and when we get back, I really want to ask
you about managers around the game. We have not had
a managerial change in the course of this season. Are
there any coming up after the season. We'll talk about
that next Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts. Yeah, managers,
(17:32):
how about this, Joe. None have been fired this year,
No changes. This is after last year. There were seven
teams that changed their manager either during the season and
after the season.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Of course you were part of that early on.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
And I know, Joe, you're not going to bring this up,
but I will you talk about what happened with the
Angels with you. You had a three year contract with
an option year. The first year was a COVID season.
I mean, no manager taking over our team is able
to implement any parts of their culture in a COVID
shortened season. It was just so unusual. The next year
(18:05):
there's a lockout, the spring training starts extremely late, and
half of your star players were basically on the il
for more than half of a season. And then the
next year, after twenty seven to twenty nine start, you're out.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
So really three years you.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Didn't have a quote unquote normal season, not one. Okay,
since then, your record, by the way you were twenty
percentage was four eighty two, and that third year for
sixty eight. Overall, since then, the Angels are worse. They're
four forty one. So you're not going to say it,
but I'll say it that you really didn't have a
(18:44):
full run with the Angels.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
And as time is starting to show.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Here, the manager wasn't the problem with the Angels, because
they've been worse off since you've been gone.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, listen, it's I really did want to stay there longer.
I wanted to stay there actually for a long time
I grew up as an Angel, I was a California Angel,
and that's really why I wanted to go back there.
I thought my relationship with Artie was one that I
would be able to be given the opportunity to bring
us back to what I considered the glory years. It
(19:13):
was such a big part of the first World Series
championship and then after that, even to the point I
left with the Rays and go back to the minor
league level. So I went California Angel. That's who I am,
and I'll say that to anybody. And I really had
wished that Ardy had renamed him rebranded them the California
Angels when he took them over, as opposed to the
Los Angeles Angeles, which says no, does not ring with
(19:36):
me at all. I just think it's too far from
the truth. So anyway, having said that, yeah, I wanted
to be there longer. I really do believe we could
have turned it around one hundred percent, not even ninety
nine percent. There was a lot of things there that
I felt we're going in the right direction, as evidence
by the beginning of that season or my last season there,
and then we just couldn't hit We just couldn't pitch.
(20:00):
I was forced to make some bullpen decisions based on availability,
and then all of a sudden, Bob's your uncle and
I'm out of there. Right But you're talking about that
situation compared to now, and again, I think the lack
or why we're not seeing as many managerial firings is
because of the influence of the front office. I was
in more of a unilateral decision making situation with the angels.
(20:21):
I did fight on some things I didn't like. I
let people know what I didn't like, and that probably
was a big part of my demise there. But you're
not going to get that for most managers today. You're
not going to get pushed back with front offices when
you don't agree with something you know. Quite frankly, a
lot of the guys that are managing right now, I've
never done it before prior to this, so you don't
(20:42):
really know what you think. Sometimes you just know they
what the group of on top tells you to think.
I'm just being honest. So I think the lack of
firing is pretty much because there's so much influence from
the front office to the clubhouse of the game that
would almost be like they'd be firing themselves, you know,
if in fact they chose to let a manager go
(21:02):
after feeding him so much in information, asking him to
do so many different things during the game, and then
eventually saying you're the problem, when in fact, obviously it's
not true. So that's my short winded die.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Try well think about it.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I mean, there's been some great surprise teams pop up,
the Reds still in the race here in the last week,
the Diamondbacks of course, the Orioles taking a huge leap
forward with Brandon Hye.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
This year great stories, right, But a big part of this.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Year also is the amount of money spent on teams
that really have been disasters. The three biggest payrolls in baseball,
the Mets, the Yankees, the Padres, all with losing records.
The Cardinals and the White Sox have been disasters. I
don't know if we're going to see a managerial change
(21:50):
among any of those teams. It's really interesting to me
that some of these teams that really underachieve.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
You don't hear a lot of noise.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Now.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Aaron Boom was just kind of speaking out loud, answering
questions the other day. He doesn't know what his future
is going to be with the Yankees. I gotta believe
he's coming back.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
This season is not on Aaron Boone. I think the
players have made it clear that they like him, not
that that's the be all and the end all. You know,
sometimes you know, you get the confidence of the players
and there's.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Other things that are lacking. I get that, but I
think he's done a good job.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I think the roster was really not built for today's
game to start out.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
That's not on him. Give me a quick take on
Aaron Boone.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I agree, I agree all those guys you mentioned should
come back next year. It's more of the acquisitional process
than it is the end game management of the team.
There are so many folks that want to be involved
in the daily runnings or the making of the team
that it becomes confusing. And I think again that's why
it's very difficult to pin any of the negativity on
(22:53):
the managers, because they are just part of this fluid
system that runs from the top to the bottom, from ownership,
from some of these situations right down to the dials
ownership an office eventure to the dugout. So they're they're
great communicators. Aaron Is, buck Is, Bobby Melboyne is I
mean you've mentioned somebody else too, I can't remember. But
(23:14):
these guys are all good, good, really good at what
they do, and they're great communicators, and a big part
of their job is to at least twice a day
get in front of the cameras before after the game
and then kind of be the spokesperson almost the press
secretary for the organization. And these guys are really good
at that. So again, the acquisitional process needs to be
(23:36):
more under scrutiny as opposed to the managerial process. Uh No,
one and then and then again. Analytically, I know that
the Yankees are going through this analytical deep dive, which
I find interesting. It's I think eventually all this is
going to lead to more of a balanced situation, which
I think is great, where you do balance analytics with
(23:56):
baseball acumen teaching the game, and then using analytics serving baseball,
not baseball serving, which is I think pretty much what's
going on right now. So I think you get back
to this balanced situation, and if in fact the manager
becomes more prominent decision making, then it will be where
you see managers either glorified or fired or consistently or easily.
(24:18):
But when the brunt of the decision making is being
derived or dictated from up above, it's hard for these
managers to be fired because they're pretty much basically carrying
out what the front office wants.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
You're right, and I think that's especially true with the
Yankees with Aaron Boone and Brian Cashman.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
They have a great relationship.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I don't think it makes sense to go anywhere else
when they do work together very well. And that's not
a knock on Boone, as you said, it's just the
way that the game is now. A couple of other situations,
now Buck Showalter with the Mets. That's interesting because now
David Sterns is the president of Baseball Operation. New guy
comes in and you don't know, so I think it's
(25:00):
probably fifty to fifty whether David Sterns wants Bucks show
Walter back. Think when you hire David Stearns, who essentially
was a free agent and a Marquis free agent, for
what he does, you give him the right to pick
his own manager.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
I think that's clear. We don't know where he is
on Buck.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
We'll have to find out in San Diego with Bob Melvin,
you know him and Aj Pereller have been together now a.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Couple of years.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
They went to the NLCS last year, and really the
relationship has not been great or at least productive in
this season.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I don't know if if that relationship is going to
continue going forward. Are both going to be back? Is
one going to be back and not the other. There's
a lot of questions with San Diego. No one knows
where they're going, other than their payroll is going to
be reduced. Blake Snell, Josh had free agents. They'll put
one Soto on the trade market, see what they can get.
(25:54):
The baseball town that San Diego has become is a
tremendous story. I mean, they filled that place, sold out
more than sixty of their home games.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Is tremendous atmosphere.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
It's really analogous to Philly going to Citizens Bank Ballpark.
The energy in that ballpark is tremendous. Those fans turned
out for a losing team this year. I think they,
like the Yankees, are going to have to really take
a deep dive here, not just into the analytics, but
who are they as a franchise and where are they going?
It's not an obvious answer to that question, but I
(26:27):
think San Diego has some hard questions they have to answer,
and I think both the general manager and the manager
are part of those questions.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
You said it properly. The relationship. I mean, that's a
big part of a most important part of all of this,
the relationship. Like when I was with the Angels there,
Perry did not hire me, so I totally understand him
wanting to get his own guy at some point. I
do get it. I can't deny that at all. The
relationship between the GM and the field manager is extremely important. Again,
(26:58):
I for years with Andrew. Andrew and I we did
wonderfully together. And I used to advise my people that
I knew that were in the game. We're not getting
jobs coaches on the minor league level, whatever. I advised
them that they really need to understand this new method
I did about analytics and how it applies to the game.
If you're not into it, please school yourself a bit
(27:19):
on it, because you really need to be able to
speak that language in order to get a job. And
I knew that, and I did advise people about that.
Andrew and I were able to balance all of that
because Andrew knew where I was coming from. He knew
I was into it. I mean, it was started from
the first time I walked into that room in Houston
for that interview. I came armed with a notebook full
(27:41):
of my analytical stuff. He knew that from the beginning,
But he also knew how severely important it was to
me to incorporate old school methods of scouting, teaching, etc.
And I really tried to impart that on him because
that's something he had not been a part of prior
to coming into that. And we created this wonderful balance,
I thought, where we could argue, he and I could argue,
(28:03):
which was really important. We had some great arguments, really
good about different whether it's who to play, who not
to play, whether to swing on a three and zero
count or not. All those things were really good argument
seeing I had back then and even to the role
of the bullpen guy, where you go to a higher
leverage guy in a situation earlier in a game, even
(28:26):
though traditionally it said you should go from to the
seventh to day to the ninth any guy. He's the
guy that really changed my thinking on that. Gosh, I
don't even know it was twenty twelve or eleven or
somewhere in that general vicinity. So we had this really
good method going on where we could. We had this
relationship that we could argue health and a healthy manner,
(28:46):
and I was his guy, and that's why we survived
and we did so well together. Gms have to have
their guy and it should be rooted in a great relationship.
I thought THEO and I had that too. When I
went to the Cubs. I was kind of disappointed there
after five years because I thought we had actually way
more left in the tank than that, but it didn't
(29:07):
work out that way. But that's it. You have to
you have to be the GM needs pretty much needs
to hire whoever that GM is. He needs to hire
you to really work up that same sheet of music.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I think, Joe you said that so well, and I
think the most important point to drive home there is
that disagreement is good and healthy. It's part of a
productive atmosphere. You want people around you who can challenge
your beliefs, but you don't want people just to rubber
stamp where you're going. It doesn't mean you have to
be at loggerheads all the time. But debate is healthy.
(29:41):
It's it's not a bad thing. When you hear about
some friction, that's good. It makes you rethink the different
perspectives in any kind of line of work. I think
is healthy. It's part of what teamwork is all about.
So I'm glad you drove that home. It doesn't mean
that you have to dislike one another. You shouldn't be
challenged by someone's difference of opinion. You actually welcome it.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Let me tell you this, that's been that's really been missing, honestly,
more recently in the game, people players, I mean coaches
are afraid to argue. I think for two reasons. Number one,
they really don't know what they believe anymore. Because again
I'll go back to my minor league training. I knew
what I believed. I knew what I knew based on
the mentors that I had coming up. I knew that
I was firmly entrenched to be the guys today. A
(30:23):
lot of them have not spent enough time being mentored
in the minor leagues by true teachers of the game.
My biggest concern is who's passing on the game to
the next generation of coaches, Even more than players. Who's
the influence, Who are the influencers regarding how the game's
being taught now and how that's going to move forward.
I'm the influencer now based on nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties
(30:47):
baseball and all the people I ran into at that
particular junction, and I bring into bear that and combining
that with what I've learned since then in a more
contemporary approach. Whether you want to call that analytics or not.
But I think I'm able to blend both because I've
had such wonderful mentors to be careful regarding who's coaching
the coaches, who's mentoring that group that's going to bring
(31:09):
the game to the next decade or so.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Well, Joe, That leads me to our next segment here
after a break, we will talk about there will be
at least one managerial change, and it's a guy that
you have a lot in common with.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
We'll talk about that right after this.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast and Joe Madden.
The parallels you have with Terry Francona are very interesting.
You know, Terry hasn't come out and officially announced that
he is going to retire, whatever that may be for Terry,
but yeah, he's not coming back to the Guardians. Just
an incredible career in baseball. You just finished talking about,
(32:00):
you know, getting some experience under your belt, kind of
learning your way up the baseball ladder. He has done that,
not just by playing the major leagues, but he went
to rookie ball, he went to a ball, he went
to double A three years he was in front office.
That was all before he got a job managing the Phillies.
And after the two thousand and three season, it's Joe
(32:23):
Madden and Terry Francona who are both up for the
Boston Red Sox job. Just a loaded team ready to win,
as it turned out, and Terry Francona was the guy
to get it done. Terry Francona wins in Boston, Joe
Madden wins in Chicago with the Cubs too. The longest
droughts to the most historical droughts in sports history, those
(32:44):
two guys ended those droughts. Terry Francona has a career
winning percentage as a manager of five to thirty nine
Joe Madden five thirty two. By the way, Francona ejected
fifty times in his career in Joe Madden fifty nine,
so they've got that as well.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Of course, we.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Cannot forget the twenty sixteen World Series Joe madd and
Terry Francona go up against one another. The darn series
is tied after nine innings in the seventh game. That's
how close that series was. So Terry Francona one of
the true characters in the game. Besides being just a
fantastic manager. I think he's just beloved everywhere that he's
(33:23):
been by every player he's had. So I'm interested, Joe
in your quick thoughts on Tito and and how long
you've gotten to know him.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, like you said, I started in zero four when
he and I both were interviewed for the Red Sox job.
I remember that really, really well, the first obviously big opportunity,
and I remember interviewing with THEO Jed and.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Shoot with the Dodgers name Josh Burns.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Josh Burns, Yeah, and Phoenix. I remember that interview very well.
They put me through a bunch of exercises and I
bought a special suit because Blue but basically told me
I had to all this kind of stuff. And I
sat down in the Phoenician. I think it was, and
we talked, and great experience for me, and of course
I lost out to Terry, but I was I was.
(34:14):
I told THEO later, you did the right thing. You
picked the right guy. It wasn't really ready to be
in Boston at that moment. I think Tito's experience having
been in Philadelphia really played well for him. I think
it made him more exactly ready for that particular job
as I would have been. So I thought that was
a great decision on Theo's choice. Pardon I told him so.
(34:36):
Moving forward, though we had match ax to Lockhorns. You know,
we talked about the winning percentage of the first two
years in Tampa Bay were difficult. Man. We lost one
hundred and almost one hundred games his next first two years.
And then after that in two thousand and eight, that's
when the Rays became good and we played the Red
Sox and that was the first big encounter we had
was Game seven when we won on that ground ball
(34:59):
the hockey and all of a sudden, we're going to
the World Series. The thing about like, just like he said,
with Tito, you know, there's a character about his group,
the fact that they were not afraid, the fact that
he was going to be calm, the fact that you
had to be on your toes, and all these things
that I love when you look on the other side,
looking the other dugout talked to him before the game,
a little gamesmanship going out. He'd messed with you a
(35:21):
little bit, which I loved. But I have so much
respect for him and what he's done in the game,
and that you're right. His players loved him. His players
absolutely adore him, and I think that's because of the
communication factor and that he would build the relationships that
were necessary. We had that game in common. We had
the Wildcard Game also that nobody talks about, and he's
(35:42):
with the Indians when we beat them in the Wildcard
Game to play the Red Sox. Is that I don't know,
but it's that twelve eleven or whatever that year was.
That was a big game. That was where we won.
I think it was four to one. Alex Cott pitch great.
We then played the Red Sox and al Ds and lose.
But then eventually he gets to the big moment with
(36:03):
the World Series in Game seven. So he and I
have had some really big games against one another as managers,
and like I said, the respect is enormous that I
have for him. If he chooses to do this again,
I cannot be happy for him going out on his
own terms and thinks it's great. So yeah, he's a
special guy. We have a lot of common friends that
(36:26):
when I talk to them, they feel the same way.
So if he does choose to do this, I wish
I'm nothing but the best. But he's been outstanding. Joe.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
I see a lot of similarities with you and Terry
and the way you guys manage your ball clubs and
connect with players. It starts with honesty. I mean I
always said that was the number one trade of Joe Tory.
Players knew that whatever he told them, there was no
agenda behind it. It was the honest truth. And sometimes
maybe it was not great news. You didn't want to
(36:54):
hear that you weren't playing or drop from the rotation,
but you knew it was coming from a genuine place.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Terry frank Cone is the same way.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
I think he allows players to be themselves, encourages it
that the best version of yourself, the most productive version
as a baseball player, is going to be a guy
who's able to be himself and not fit into a
system doesn't have a lot of rules, and I know
you're big on that. Give players a freedom to really
express themselves and be themselves as long as they're putting
the work in no problem.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
That's Terry Francona.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
And probably the most famous story with Terry Francona, and
there's a million of those, is falling behind the Yankees
right three in the four Alcs and you know, it's
a wet night at Yankee Stadium and the Red Sox
decided not to take VP on the field. Kevin Malar says,
you know, we're sick of listening to the yankeeographies on
the scoreboard for an hour and a half while we're
(37:45):
working out in the field before the game. And that's
when it was Malar and a couple of other guys,
Johnny Damon decided let's take a shot at Jack Daniels
to get us ready for this game. And of course
they won the game, you'd have to do that the
next night, and so on and so forth. And it
was just that kind of that culture that Terry Francona
really always, no matter what his teams were, whether they
were World Series teams or not, just encourage guys to
(38:08):
be themselves. And I saw that with your clubs, and
I think it's and again it's not you don't want
to be known as quote unquote a player as a
manager because you're two las. Terry like you, he wasn't
beyond you know, having to drop a hammer on his
club with it just airing him out once in a while,
or having a bench a guy if he's not giving
you ninety feet. But I just think establishing that culture,
(38:31):
that atmosphere where players can be themselves. Boy, it's that's
what I think of Terry or Frank Cone when I
think about his years managing.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Right on, I think all that is pertinent. You're right philosophically.
I agree with everything you just said, and just to
boil it down, if I tell you the truth, you
might not like me for a week or ten days,
but if I lie to you, you're going to hate
me forever. And that's pretty much when I have to
have a tough conversation, I will think that in advance.
(39:00):
You know, I've been doing it for a while. I've
had some tough conversations since the mid eighty Seriously, in
Geootry Park, in the little office there, or the Cheenwak
used to sit at they're in instructional leagues that bring
guys in and we would go positives, negatives and then
read off to them what I perceived to be the
goals for this camp. And I wanted them to write
down what their goals are for this camp, bring it
(39:22):
back to me. Then at the end of the camp,
we would review all of this stuff. So a lot
of it came down to just being very frank with
all of these guys, and they love it. A real
professional loves frankness. They want to hear exactly what you're thinking.
And when you do that, when you walk out on
the field there and they look at you, there's not like,
what is he thinking? They know what I'm thinking. They
(39:44):
know exactly what I'm thinking. That's why I was really
big on these meetings, whether it was instructional leagues, spring trainings,
took it to the race, took it to the Cubs,
et cetera. Started that in nineteen eighty four, nineteen eighty five. Actually,
so that's important. I mean, I think if any manager,
whether it's in baseball or in any organization or busines
this group and actually I've had this conversation with some
(40:07):
in the in those positions. One piece of advice would be,
I would as much as you can have individual meetings
with your your lead bulls whoever you perceive these people
to be, or as many employees as you can, because
when you do that and you really create this transparency
where I know exactly what my boss the leader is thinking,
(40:30):
in gentlemen about me, it permits this more at ease
about my job, where I could walk and I could
see him or her and I'm not going to be like, well,
what are they thinking? Because what happens is we always
imagine the worst. You're always going to think the worst
about regarding regarding what does the group of the organization
or the leader think about me. And that's a bad
(40:52):
place to be. And that's where you're imagining things that
are not true, but you give them a certain level
of truth and power. So these are the reasons why
I've done it the way I've done it, And as
you discribe, I think it's exactly what Terry's done too.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Hey Joe again, that game seven in twenty sixteen, It
really is one of the greatest baseball games that any
of us have seen in really across baseball history. It's
so much strategy, so much back and forth. I wonder
if you ever had a chance to talk to Terry
after that game in the years since then about you know,
(41:27):
being part of, let's face it, baseball history from the
strategic standpoint.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
I mean, it was an interesting game to run.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
I wanted to ask you about the situation where Francona
did something I have never seen before or since, and
that's what he took an outfielder out of the game
in the middle of an inning.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
It was the ninth inning. Jason Hayward stole second, advanced
to third on the throwing era. Now he's the winning
run at third base, and Terry Francona takes out Coco
Crisp to put a better arm in the outfield, which
was Michael Martinez. And as it turned out, Michael Martinez
is at the plate with two outs in the last
(42:06):
inning and the guy really had not batted much at
all for Cleveland. That was an interesting move by Terry Francona.
I mean, like you, he's not afraid to make an
outside the box move. There's no question about that.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
But just wondering even about that call and on your end,
sending Jason Hayward in that spot. But if you ever
had a chance to talk to Terry about being part
of baseball history.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Have not, quite, frankly, have not. I don't know why not.
There's no reason why not, but we have not done that.
But getting back to that particular move, Coco Crisp had
a really bad arm. He had heard it years ago,
even in Oakland and Boston. He was he just did
not throw well. So it's understandable why he would make
that move. I mean, if the fly balls at the
(42:53):
cocoa in an area where he could have made a
throat of the plate and we're safe. You killed himself
after the game for not doing it if he had
thought about it. I e. Here comes hobby By there
as again Jason's on third pictures. Sweep's kind of a
sweep slider. He's going to chase right here. Even if
it's two strikes. The better opportunity would be to safe.
(43:13):
They squeeze, because part of that is that you don't
have to go after the pitch if you don't want to.
You could pull the back of it's the ball and
accept ball four. There's all kinds of things going on.
So these are the things you think of you prep
yourself for then you decide to do in the moment
when they When they work, my goodness, you're glorified. When
they don't, you're an idiot. So yeah, I'm listening. When
it came down to that night, didny, I'd much prefer
(43:34):
facing Martinez in the extra innings as opposed to Coco Crisp,
who is actually, you know, not a bad right handed hitter,
and so that it all worked out that way, But
you can't. You have one moment, You have one moment
in time to make that decision. It's revisionism. Is doesn't
work because when you're in a dugout and all these
things are swirling through your head and you've prepped yourself
(43:56):
for that, you make the decision. Some guys would never
make that decision because the thought never came to them,
quite frankly, and that's maybe the a'sually the bane of
having too much experience or too many thoughts or having
been any situations before. Then I was like, wow, I
need to do this right now, and then it doesn't
play out that way, and then why did you do it?
So No, I have not had that conversation with Tito
(44:20):
probably well at some point, but again, quite frankly, the
fact that Martinez was up there really was a lot
better than Coco.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yeah, it's one of my favorite points in the game
that had just a million of them, where you can
go back and look at all the decisions that were
made or moren't made, And for Tito to take out
his outfielder and then for you to put a safety
squeeze on with two strikes on the batter is It's
just it speaks to these guys as managers. Joe Madden,
(44:48):
Terry Francona a lot in common. Terry Francona finishing a
tremendous career more than three thousand and two thousand games
managing the big leagues. I'm not sure what he's going
to do next, but we wish him all the best. Joe,
We're going to take a quick break and we'll up
this last week of the regular season edition of the
Book of Joe right after this, all right, Joe's the
(45:20):
last week of the regular season.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
The air is getting a little cooler.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I have to ask you this, do you change what
you're driving based on the time of year. You've got
some vehicle choices to make, and I'm not sure whether
this time of year presents better for one of your
vehicles than another.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
God, it's such a great question. Right now, I'm only
being limited by the fact that I got to get
a couple of cars registered in Pennsylvania. I'm now a
Pennsylvania resident, and I brought out the bell Air the
other day color Bella and the three P fifty with
fuel injection. The guy that put it together took seven
years to build this car. Oh my god, it runs,
(45:58):
It just runs beautifully. So I drove that. I'm waiting
on the convertible before the weather. I got the seventy
two Chevelle Beautiful like I call it Candy Apple Blue.
Bought it in Chicago when I was still with the
Rays three fifty, also with the six ft trimic transmission.
Again feel injected, beautiful. That's what I want to drive
right now.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yeah, neither neither one of those is the mutter, by
the way, And if you've been on the East coast
the last three days, here right, No, you're not taking
out those babies.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
No, they're they're in the firehouse right now. They're getting
they're just getting some rest. And my van, like my
van is the one the van. It's getting cleaned up.
There's a couple of issues with it yet, but the
van is the one. The van is like, really what
I wanted to beat around in all over northeastern Pennsylvania.
It's a seventy six Dodge Van Tradesman two hundred, you know,
(46:46):
pretty much a shag and wagon. It's got the great
shag in side, tremendous sound system, wonderful air conditioning, new
leather seats that are avocado green with burnt orange, got
a TV in the back. Again. I'm so looking forward
to driving this. It's got a three sixty in it
and now with the four eight stroker Kid, it's really
(47:07):
it's a little bit loud, but it's really cool. That's
what I want to do because once it gets once
it snows and bad up there, none of these play.
I won't take any of these things out unless the
roads are dry and it's not going to freeze. So yeah,
right now, I want to get the Chevelle out there.
I want to convert to I went the top down
last point. These set fifty nine El Caminos on its way,
and this thing is a beauty. Man. I get more
(47:30):
stops on the street when I'm driving the fifty nine
El Camino the first year they made them. Got that
real nautical wood in the back of the bed, a
beautiful red interior, killer sound system. I know. I could
go on and on, but that is the one I
want to get behind the wheel as soon as I
get back to PA.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
That is a beautiful car. It is the shagg And Wagon,
by the way, is also a beautiful car. What is
the name of the color? That's like a bron a
desert bronze or something. What is the name of that color.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
I don't know the exactly. You're right, it's a it's
a desert landscape on it. I bought it through Craigslist
from some dude outside of Pittsburgh at least ten years ago.
I don't know the exact date. I was on every list.
I wanted a seventy six dodge Man because Doug s
Levette used to take me to cal State Fullerton in
nineteen seventy six for my first Angel spring training. We
used to work out at cal State Fullerton. He picked
(48:19):
me up at an Ted's house and Uncle Rick's on
Gardener Street in Elder out of Park in Long Beach.
He picked me up. We drive down to Long Beach State.
We would work I mean, excuse me to cal State Fullerton.
We'd work out, and he'd drive me back. And he
had a seventy six black Dodge Van, And for years
I wanted one of those, so I researched, research, research. Finally,
(48:40):
I think I paid about nine or ten thousand bucks
for this way. Put way more into it than that.
But believe me, it runs great when it's right on.
And I'll tell you the thing about these, it's the jeep.
It really handles like a jeep in a parking lot.
The wheelbase is so far forward and back that it
really is maneuverable. So that's why I got it. And
(49:00):
it's that desert landscape kind of an orange like you're
saying brown, like almost like you're in the desert between Arizona,
New Mexico. It's gorgeous and I can't wait to wait.
I cannot wait to get back behind the wheel.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
On that one key question, Joe doesn't have an eight
track player?
Speaker 2 (49:18):
No, I don't need it anymore because I got Bluetooth.
I mean I got Bluetooth, bunch of bluetooth. It it's like,
you know, you just bring your phone in there and
also and just took it up. Man, you got everything
at your disposal. And this sound is incredible. Oh full
cow speaker.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Is beautiful, sounds lovely. Hey, it does sound love it.
This is this is it for the regular season.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
We are certainly going to be back next week diving
into the postseason matchups.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
A few spots still left to decide here, So anything
special this week Joe to take us out in our
final regular season edition of the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
You know what, it's incredible because for the folks that
don't know this, sometimes, like days like this when we
don't have a guest, I really don't know where Tommy's
going to go with the topics, and I just react
to the next tempraneously.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
I do like to surprise you.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
And I love it. I actually love it, and I
like that I.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
Can go anywhere and you cover it so well.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
But here's the thing. So I pick up my quote
of the day without knowing the topics of the day, right,
and this cannot be more germane and I love it.
And it comes from Herman Melville, who you know, Moby Dick,
and I read I read Wisdom of the Ages by
Meane dire years ago. It's like sixty of his but
he perceives to be some of the most critical passages
(50:32):
in history from the most influential people. And he has
a passage from Melville with Moby Dick and it's about
your insular Tahiti where you need to escape to when
he gets crazy. But this also comes from Melbolle, and
really I love it. And I'm going too far here,
but it is better to fail in originality than to
succeed in imitation. Wow. When I read that that, I
love that. It's so true and it cannot be more germane.
(50:55):
Like I said, to what's going on in the world today.
Everybody wants to imitate everybody else. It's just the real
imaginative or original person sometimes has a hard time because
it does not really morph into the group as easily
in a sense. So I love that fail and originality
as opposed to succeed in imitation. Wow, that's what I
(51:15):
love to see.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
In baseball, that is so well said Harmon Melville.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
I'm not sure if you ever covered baseball, but that
was some writer who hit the nail on the head,
because to.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Me, maybe a double day had everybody.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
It's those who want to kind of copy others and
join the quote unquote wisdom of the crowd. That's the
definition of being average. And who wants to be average?
Be yourself.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
But look at your rear works as a writer, man,
you're so original. You're so able to with your research
and your own vast resource of knowledge in your in
your own personal history, You're able to weave things together
so well. And that's all original. That's not you. You.
You don't imitate anybody, and that's why people love you
writing so much.
Speaker 3 (51:56):
Find your own inner Tahiti. Also, I love that.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
That's right. That's right, baby, that's right, that's right. Check
it out.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
We'll see it next week week on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
All right, brother, Thank you man.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, welcome back to the latest edition of the
Book of Joe podcast. And it is the final week
of the regular season. And Joe, you sound as if
(00:24):
maybe you can cut a rap album. I don't know,
but maybe the length of the season is catching up
to you here on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
It is. It is. You know, we always get these
little colds this time of the year. It's playoff weather.
I've been through a long season of golf and right
now I think it's kind of catching up to me.
The weather is starting to change a bit. Driven down
to Tampa, two day trip, stopped in Charlotte, eventually made
it to Tampa. So the Bucks and Eagles last night.
Pretty impressive job by the Eagles. So yeah, I'll be fine.
(00:53):
It's just that time of the year.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, it's time to come up big, as Justin Verlander
did in the first game of a huge series between
the Astros and the Mariners.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
And Joe.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
You know, the American League West, inside and out, and
so that's where I want to start with our focus here.
We've got three teams, Texas, Seattle, Houston, three really good teams.
One of them is going home because I think the
Toronto Blue Jays looked like they have a good foothold here,
and I have the Rangers in the playoffs here they
(01:23):
have a three game lead in the lost column with
six to play. They've righted the ship here. So we've
got Seattle and Houston. For me, that's what it's going
to come down to, handicap those three teams, who do
you like, who you don't like? Coming down here in
the final week of the season in the Ale West.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, I'm not trying to be a front runner, but
like you said, Texas looks like they have figured things
out again. It's just I always think about in two
thousand and five when the White Sox win World Series.
We were playing in Chicago in the beginning of September.
In Chicago, they were awful. They were absolutely awful. As
the Angels went to the playoffs that year, we almost
(02:02):
we ended up losing to them in the play They
went to the World Series and won it, but they
were terrible. They were absolutely terrible. But all of a
sudden they flipped the switch. They're pitching was that good.
They turned things around, and of course they had a
good team, so that happens. Sometimes you got to go
through these bad moments and then if you regain traction,
here we go. And I think that's what Texas has done.
They've regained their mojo, they've regained traction. They've got a
(02:22):
lot of good things going on there. Montgomery's been pitching
extremely well, obviously, and so I think if they're in
the other two teams, again, it's a coin toss, but
it's the opposite there. Houston has the pedigree. They have
the pedigree, they've done it before. They got this weird
record this year where they're better on the road, correct,
(02:43):
which I don't get that I mean, and again it's
syntithetical to the years of banging on trash cans. And
I think they do play on the road towards the
end of the season, correct, Houston does.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, they're done with the home schedule.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
They actually finished under five hundred in their home schedule. Now,
in the history of baseball, there's in more than four
hundred postseason teams teams that made the postseason in full seasons,
not counting as shortened twenty twenty or eighty one seasons.
Only one of them had a losing record at home.
Is two thousand and one, Braves were one game under,
(03:16):
so it's very unusual to have a losing record at
home and still be a playoff team.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
The Astros might be able to pull that off.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Well, I think they are. I mean, I guess what
I'm saying is, I think they will be based on
if they've been doing that all year, I don't see
any reason why that trend should discontinue. And again, I
just think the Mariners are just they pushed so hardy
it back into this thing. They went you know, south
through a bit. They were hot. Absolutely, they were hot,
But then again, it's about getting hot at the right time.
So I'm going with Houston and Texas, the two Texas
(03:47):
teams getting their way in there. I agree with the
Toronto component of this thing. So I just think that
eventually you're going to see shadow looking from the outside in.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, they face I think they have to win the
next two against the Astros here after losing the opener.
My quick take on these three teams in the Al West. Texas, Yeah,
I agree with you. They've righted the ship here. A
lot of that is Bruce Bochi is just I mean,
he's going to the Hall of fame. He knows how
to set the right tone with this team, no panic,
(04:17):
and it is a veteran team, so you don't expect
them to dig a bigger hole once they do hit
that eventual skid. One thing concerns me about Texas Joe
in the second half. Their bullpen is twenty sixth in
the major leagues and the second half of the season
era is over five. Now, this team is tremendous offensively,
and their path to make you run of the postseason
(04:38):
really is on the backs of their offense.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Reminds me a little bit of Philadelphia last year.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
It's good enough to do that, as you know, it's
a hard way to navigate the postseason if you really
want to rely on offense. But I do think their
offense is that good where they can be a scary
team because they're loaded up and down the lineup.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, I've been through it though. I mean, yeah, I
do like her. I do like their team offensively speaking, again,
there's something that I kind of thought I figured out
a little bit when I'm still there with Seeger. I
don't I mean really, I would not throw the guy's
strike the whole playoffs. I wouldn't throw him a strike.
I would make him adjusted to me, I would make
him swing out of pitches outside of the zone. And
(05:18):
then I take my chances with everybody else. I know
there's other good guys in the lineup. I get it.
But then when you start applying pressure in other areas,
it makes a difference with the group. You know, the
second basement's outstanding. You know the catcher has done a
really good job. But I just think that Seger is
really the straw right there to be very careful when
(05:40):
I play them, you know, pitching wise. Yeah, And the
thing about that is it's so antithetical boats, it's so
good with the bullpen. So it also indicates, you know,
regardless of how good you can manage a particular part
of the game, if you don't have the right players,
it makes it makes a problematic So those are really
important things to me. Is my bullpen in the playoff situation.
(06:01):
And if I'm relying on hitting only, you're going to
run into some hot pitching staffs, and that's they could
still do a number on you your offensive side of
the ball. So that would be my concern with them
moving forward. If the bullpen is not somewhat fixed and
becomes a little bit more us porous. It's going to
(06:21):
be difficult, very difficult, because good pitching will stop that,
I believe.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, my take on Houston is the pedigree is just
too good to ignore here. And you don't like to
think teams can just turn it on and turn it off,
but they know how to win ball games when they
need to win ball games. There's just so much playoff experience.
They've been in just about every imaginable situation. Think about this.
They went through a three to nine stretch where they
(06:47):
lost three series to the Royals and the A's literally
the two worst teams in baseball. They look like they're
hanging by a thread. They walk into Seattle on the road,
give the ball to Justin Verlander, and he takes the
ball to the ninth inning.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
How about this joke. Justin Verlander in that opener of the.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Three game series with Seattle, his average fastball velocity for
Steamer was ninety three point five. That's the lowest he's
had in any game since twenty sixteen, and he took
the ball to the ninth inning through an absolute gem. Oh,
by the way, the Mariners went zero for thirteen against
(07:27):
the guy with his worst quote unquote velocity since twenty sixteen.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
That to me speaks to who the Astros are.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
You trust the guys with the pedigree, and no team
has more a playoff pedigree right now than do the Astros.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, his breaking ball is so good right now, and
I don't even know what the Scott report necessarily is
with the Mariners fastball versus breaking ball. But again, he's
whatever he's lost there, he's picked up in his pitchability,
just knowledge is want to all that kind of stuff
is there. But last time I saw him on the two,
but I thought his breaking ball was really sharp. And
(08:04):
again he's got this uh, this inner flame thatf you have.
The last point about the Astros too, is that, Okay,
I think they're going to get to the playoffs, but
I think it's going to be hard to really get
deep into the playoffs just because and it is just
because they've been doing it for so many years now
to really fan the flames to the point where they
get hot enough internally mentally wanting it badly enough and
(08:27):
understid that's not an indictment against them. It's just difficult
as human beings to get to that level. You know,
I see I see Texas figuring it out a little
bit more than Houston does right now, just based on
the fact they haven't been there in a while, and
the and you know, boats there, the start they got
off to, all that stuff I think is going to
come back to them a little bit. So I like Texas,
even though I just say what I said about their bullpen,
(08:48):
and you could pitch them a little bit, but I
was just from a humanitarian perspective, a human perspective. I
think their their flames are going to be a little
bit hotter to get this done than Houston's.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
As for Seattle, you mentioned their offense.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
What I don't like about their offenses, there's just too
much swing and miss. So you look at the highest
strikeout rates in baseball, you've got Minnesota.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Number one and Seattle number two. That just too much
swing and miss.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And a guy like Verlander who has become, it really
has been for a long time, a complete pitcher. You know,
I threw it out there about his four seam fastball
because we always think a JV at that high riding
for seamer top of his own upper nineties. But man,
he knows how to pitch, as he mentioned the breaking
stuff is really good, so he can exploit a lineup
that has holes in it, swings and misses to be found.
(09:38):
And that's that scares me about Seattle. The other thing
here is it's generally a really good pitching staff. It's
a top three staff top to bottom of the major leagues,
but they rely a lot on young pitching. And the
Seattle starting pitchers in September are seven to nine with
a four to seven to seven era. You've got guys
(09:59):
like Kirby, who's gonna get the ball in the upcoming
game here, even Gilbert little bit, but some of those
guys now are at that point where that can they
hold it long enough to get this team into the postseason,
And September has not been good for a team that
really to me, their pitching is great, but it.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Hasn't been as good as it was the first five.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Months Uncharted Waters right. That's why I like when I
was with the Rays and Hite to go historical on everybody,
but I really wanted my starting pitching staff to throw
a thousand innings. I did. I really wanted to get
as close to two hundred out of each starter as
we possibly could, and sometimes exceeded, which we did. The
point is when you get to that level of competency
(10:42):
regarding mentally and physically being able to pitch that late
into the season successfully, I think that's a difference maker.
It's hard again, everybody wants to rely on bullpens. Now,
everybody wants to turn the ball over after five innings
or four plus whatever. I still like the tried and
true method to really develop thoroughbreds guys that can do
(11:02):
those kinds of things, and I think it can be developed.
I don't understand. The only thing preventing it, I think is,
if anything, the insistence upon throwing as hard as you
possibly can all the time, and then go out there,
you know, dial it up from first pitch as long
as you can as hard as you can. We'll bring
somebody else in. As opposed to pitchability, where guys can
go six six plus innings on a more consistent basis,
(11:25):
and it becomes a badge of honor when you're a
starting pitcher that you do throw two hundred are really
close to it on an annual basis. I still think
it's desirable to nurture that. Again, am I living in
the past. I don't know why. It's just it's very capable.
We're just not nurturing it now. Two ways we're not
permitting it to happen minor league wise, pushing guys a
(11:47):
little bit farther in innings pitch the number two by
insisting upon a method of just trying to throw the
ball as hard as you can and spinning the ball.
I think those are two things that are really preventing
the two hundred any pitcher.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
It's a great point, Joe. I think you're absolutely dead
right about that. It's a chasing veloc and chasing swings
and misses on the mound. So that's why you see
abbreviated starts. Guy's not going deep into games. Walk rate
hasn't gotten any better, strikeout rate has. But you know,
I did a game last night for FS one the
Giants and watching Logan web pitch.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
What a treat.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I mean, he's throwing ninety two at best, but the
movement on his sinker and changeup is just crazy. And
this is a kid who does not want to come.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Out of the game. Leads the major leagues and innings pitch.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
He pitched the ninth inning and had a one run lead,
two runners on base, nobody out.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
He was not coming out of that game.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
He threw three straight ground balls two hundred and sixteen
innings into the season to get out of a ninth
inning gym and win the darn game. I mean, come on,
we need more of those kind of pitchers. That was
a treat to watch.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Isn't it. I mean, and again I don't. I do
believe it's out there. I do believe it's out there.
It's just it's just methodology. How are we going to
go about this? What are we going to permit? What
are we going to nurture? What do we think wins?
I mean, if the point analytics shifts to the point
where the starting picture becomes more necessary, then you'll see
organizations attempt to nurture and build up arm strength and
(13:14):
number of pictures thrown and get guys into mornings on
an annual basis. That's just an analytical shift. If everything
remains the same regarding the way front offices are constructed,
I do believe that. I believe, I know it. I've
seen it. I believe it. I know it. It has
it's going to come down to again, different training method
a different mindset, paradigm shift, in regards to how we
(13:36):
treat our minor league pictures and what we expect out
of them. And he even goes back to high school
and college, you know where they're they're just teaching kids
to crow up and throw as hard as they can.
That's got to go away. I was talking to a
trainer the other day, really my favorite trainer in all
of baseball. I'm not going to mention his name, but
he was telling me how arm injuries are so severe.
It's almost the arms are blowing up based on the
(13:56):
training methods employed today. And that's that's where you're seeing
this radical shift in the number of surgeries. And not
only that when they do get in there, the fact
that the arms are blown up so badly, these are
the kind of things that have to be addressed. And
there's only one reason. It's the methods being taught though,
the stress that's being put on the arm based on,
like you said, velocity missing bats. At the end of
(14:17):
the day, I wish I remember the pitcher that was
talking about pitching the contact. I wanted to applaud him.
You pitch the contact, then when you get to get
to two strikes, then you try to strike somebody out
in the right situation. But you can't strike somebody out
with zero strikes on him.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Hey, Joe, as long as we're talking about the American
League West, I want to ask you about Mike Trout.
He talked to the media actually for the first time
in a couple of weeks here this week. And a
lot of speculation about whether Mike Trout will want to
leave force a trade from the Angels. Now he has
a full note trade clause and nothing's happening unless Mike
(14:52):
Trout wants it to happen. He was somewhat and you
know Mike so well, he's not going to rock anybody's boat,
and he's not going to answer a direct question about, Hey,
do you want to play here or do you want
to be.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
He said something.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
He's going to sit down with Artie Moreno and with
John Carpino, as he does at the end of every season.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
He's going to go home kind of clear his mind.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
You know, Mike likes to get away from the game
with his Eagles and his hunting and all that in
the offseason and then get ready for spring training in
an Angel's uniform. He wasn't committing to anything, but that's
Mike Trout. I mean, he's not going to rock anybody's boat, Joe.
I don't know your take on Mike, but I cannot
see Mike Trout saying get me out of here.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I could be totally wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Maybe he's harboring something underneath the surface here, but he's
such a loyal guy to the Angels, the way they've
treated him from the day they drafted him, after so
many teams passed on Mike. You know, I just don't
know if Mike Trout wants to go somewhere else. Does
he want to win absolutely? Does he want to force
a trade? That's a different question.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I mean, I and please take this the right away.
I'm not identifying myself in any way, shape or form
to his talent level. I'm missed talking about geography. We're
from the same neck of the woods. Basically, he's a
little bit into New Jersey, south of Philadelphia. I'm a
little bit north just where we come from. Yeah, I
don't see him doing those kinds of things. I don't
see him being demanding. When you're raised in a small
(16:18):
town like that and the humility that surrounds that, it's
difficult to ever arrive at the point where you think
things are all about you. So I don't see him
doing that. I could see him having a conversation. I
could see him just to Artie and John relaying his feelings,
his thoughts. But I just it's antithetical again to his
(16:41):
personality and where he comes from, his parental background and
his friends and his coaches. It's hard, man, It's hard to,
I think, to step away from that. Those roots stills upbringing.
So yeah, I could see him wanting to speak with
and finding out what they think more than forcing onto
(17:01):
them what he thinks.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Well said, Hey, we're going to take a quick break, Joe,
and when we get back, I really want to ask
you about managers around the game. We have not had
a managerial change in the course of this season. Are
there any coming up after the season. We'll talk about
that next Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts. Yeah, managers,
(17:32):
how about this, Joe. None have been fired this year,
No changes. This is after last year. There were seven
teams that changed their manager either during the season and
after the season.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Of course you were part of that early on.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
And I know, Joe, you're not going to bring this up,
but I will you talk about what happened with the
Angels with you. You had a three year contract with
an option year. The first year was a COVID season.
I mean, no manager taking over our team is able
to implement any parts of their culture in a COVID
shortened season. It was just so unusual. The next year
(18:05):
there's a lockout, the spring training starts extremely late, and
half of your star players were basically on the il
for more than half of a season. And then the
next year, after twenty seven to twenty nine start, you're out.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
So really three years you.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Didn't have a quote unquote normal season, not one. Okay,
since then, your record, by the way you were twenty
percentage was four eighty two, and that third year for
sixty eight. Overall, since then, the Angels are worse. They're
four forty one. So you're not going to say it,
but I'll say it that you really didn't have a
(18:44):
full run with the Angels.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
And as time is starting to show.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Here, the manager wasn't the problem with the Angels, because
they've been worse off since you've been gone.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, listen, it's I really did want to stay there longer.
I wanted to stay there actually for a long time
I grew up as an Angel, I was a California Angel,
and that's really why I wanted to go back there.
I thought my relationship with Artie was one that I
would be able to be given the opportunity to bring
us back to what I considered the glory years. It
(19:13):
was such a big part of the first World Series
championship and then after that, even to the point I
left with the Rays and go back to the minor
league level. So I went California Angel. That's who I am,
and I'll say that to anybody. And I really had
wished that Ardy had renamed him rebranded them the California
Angels when he took them over, as opposed to the
Los Angeles Angeles, which says no, does not ring with
(19:36):
me at all. I just think it's too far from
the truth. So anyway, having said that, yeah, I wanted
to be there longer. I really do believe we could
have turned it around one hundred percent, not even ninety
nine percent. There was a lot of things there that
I felt we're going in the right direction, as evidence
by the beginning of that season or my last season there,
and then we just couldn't hit We just couldn't pitch.
(20:00):
I was forced to make some bullpen decisions based on availability,
and then all of a sudden, Bob's your uncle and
I'm out of there. Right But you're talking about that
situation compared to now, and again, I think the lack
or why we're not seeing as many managerial firings is
because of the influence of the front office. I was
in more of a unilateral decision making situation with the angels.
(20:21):
I did fight on some things I didn't like. I
let people know what I didn't like, and that probably
was a big part of my demise there. But you're
not going to get that for most managers today. You're
not going to get pushed back with front offices when
you don't agree with something you know. Quite frankly, a
lot of the guys that are managing right now, I've
never done it before prior to this, so you don't
(20:42):
really know what you think. Sometimes you just know they
what the group of on top tells you to think.
I'm just being honest. So I think the lack of
firing is pretty much because there's so much influence from
the front office to the clubhouse of the game that
would almost be like they'd be firing themselves, you know,
if in fact they chose to let a manager go
(21:02):
after feeding him so much in information, asking him to
do so many different things during the game, and then
eventually saying you're the problem, when in fact, obviously it's
not true. So that's my short winded die.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Try well think about it.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I mean, there's been some great surprise teams pop up,
the Reds still in the race here in the last week,
the Diamondbacks of course, the Orioles taking a huge leap
forward with Brandon Hye.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
This year great stories, right, But a big part of this.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Year also is the amount of money spent on teams
that really have been disasters. The three biggest payrolls in baseball,
the Mets, the Yankees, the Padres, all with losing records.
The Cardinals and the White Sox have been disasters. I
don't know if we're going to see a managerial change
(21:50):
among any of those teams. It's really interesting to me
that some of these teams that really underachieve.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
You don't hear a lot of noise.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Now.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Aaron Boom was just kind of speaking out loud, answering
questions the other day. He doesn't know what his future
is going to be with the Yankees. I gotta believe
he's coming back.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
This season is not on Aaron Boone. I think the
players have made it clear that they like him, not
that that's the be all and the end all. You know,
sometimes you know, you get the confidence of the players
and there's.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Other things that are lacking. I get that, but I
think he's done a good job.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I think the roster was really not built for today's
game to start out.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
That's not on him. Give me a quick take on
Aaron Boone.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I agree, I agree all those guys you mentioned should
come back next year. It's more of the acquisitional process
than it is the end game management of the team.
There are so many folks that want to be involved
in the daily runnings or the making of the team
that it becomes confusing. And I think again that's why
it's very difficult to pin any of the negativity on
(22:53):
the managers, because they are just part of this fluid
system that runs from the top to the bottom, from ownership,
from some of these situations right down to the dials
ownership an office eventure to the dugout. So they're they're
great communicators. Aaron Is, buck Is, Bobby Melboyne is I
mean you've mentioned somebody else too, I can't remember. But
(23:14):
these guys are all good, good, really good at what
they do, and they're great communicators, and a big part
of their job is to at least twice a day
get in front of the cameras before after the game
and then kind of be the spokesperson almost the press
secretary for the organization. And these guys are really good
at that. So again, the acquisitional process needs to be
(23:36):
more under scrutiny as opposed to the managerial process. Uh No,
one and then and then again. Analytically, I know that
the Yankees are going through this analytical deep dive, which
I find interesting. It's I think eventually all this is
going to lead to more of a balanced situation, which
I think is great, where you do balance analytics with
(23:56):
baseball acumen teaching the game, and then using analytics serving baseball,
not baseball serving, which is I think pretty much what's
going on right now. So I think you get back
to this balanced situation, and if in fact the manager
becomes more prominent decision making, then it will be where
you see managers either glorified or fired or consistently or easily.
(24:18):
But when the brunt of the decision making is being
derived or dictated from up above, it's hard for these
managers to be fired because they're pretty much basically carrying
out what the front office wants.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
You're right, and I think that's especially true with the
Yankees with Aaron Boone and Brian Cashman.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
They have a great relationship.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I don't think it makes sense to go anywhere else
when they do work together very well. And that's not
a knock on Boone, as you said, it's just the
way that the game is now. A couple of other situations,
now Buck Showalter with the Mets. That's interesting because now
David Sterns is the president of Baseball Operation. New guy
comes in and you don't know, so I think it's
(25:00):
probably fifty to fifty whether David Sterns wants Bucks show
Walter back. Think when you hire David Stearns, who essentially
was a free agent and a Marquis free agent, for
what he does, you give him the right to pick
his own manager.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
I think that's clear. We don't know where he is
on Buck.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
We'll have to find out in San Diego with Bob Melvin,
you know him and Aj Pereller have been together now a.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Couple of years.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
They went to the NLCS last year, and really the
relationship has not been great or at least productive in
this season.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I don't know if if that relationship is going to
continue going forward. Are both going to be back? Is
one going to be back and not the other. There's
a lot of questions with San Diego. No one knows
where they're going, other than their payroll is going to
be reduced. Blake Snell, Josh had free agents. They'll put
one Soto on the trade market, see what they can get.
(25:54):
The baseball town that San Diego has become is a
tremendous story. I mean, they filled that place, sold out
more than sixty of their home games.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Is tremendous atmosphere.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
It's really analogous to Philly going to Citizens Bank Ballpark.
The energy in that ballpark is tremendous. Those fans turned
out for a losing team this year. I think they,
like the Yankees, are going to have to really take
a deep dive here, not just into the analytics, but
who are they as a franchise and where are they going?
It's not an obvious answer to that question, but I
(26:27):
think San Diego has some hard questions they have to answer,
and I think both the general manager and the manager
are part of those questions.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
You said it properly. The relationship. I mean, that's a
big part of a most important part of all of this,
the relationship. Like when I was with the Angels there,
Perry did not hire me, so I totally understand him
wanting to get his own guy at some point. I
do get it. I can't deny that at all. The
relationship between the GM and the field manager is extremely important. Again,
(26:58):
I for years with Andrew. Andrew and I we did
wonderfully together. And I used to advise my people that
I knew that were in the game. We're not getting
jobs coaches on the minor league level, whatever. I advised
them that they really need to understand this new method
I did about analytics and how it applies to the game.
If you're not into it, please school yourself a bit
(27:19):
on it, because you really need to be able to
speak that language in order to get a job. And
I knew that, and I did advise people about that.
Andrew and I were able to balance all of that
because Andrew knew where I was coming from. He knew
I was into it. I mean, it was started from
the first time I walked into that room in Houston
for that interview. I came armed with a notebook full
(27:41):
of my analytical stuff. He knew that from the beginning,
But he also knew how severely important it was to
me to incorporate old school methods of scouting, teaching, etc.
And I really tried to impart that on him because
that's something he had not been a part of prior
to coming into that. And we created this wonderful balance,
I thought, where we could argue, he and I could argue,
(28:03):
which was really important. We had some great arguments, really
good about different whether it's who to play, who not
to play, whether to swing on a three and zero
count or not. All those things were really good argument
seeing I had back then and even to the role
of the bullpen guy, where you go to a higher
leverage guy in a situation earlier in a game, even
(28:26):
though traditionally it said you should go from to the
seventh to day to the ninth any guy. He's the
guy that really changed my thinking on that. Gosh, I
don't even know it was twenty twelve or eleven or
somewhere in that general vicinity. So we had this really
good method going on where we could. We had this
relationship that we could argue health and a healthy manner,
(28:46):
and I was his guy, and that's why we survived
and we did so well together. Gms have to have
their guy and it should be rooted in a great relationship.
I thought THEO and I had that too. When I
went to the Cubs. I was kind of disappointed there
after five years because I thought we had actually way
more left in the tank than that, but it didn't
(29:07):
work out that way. But that's it. You have to
you have to be the GM needs pretty much needs
to hire whoever that GM is. He needs to hire
you to really work up that same sheet of music.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I think, Joe you said that so well, and I
think the most important point to drive home there is
that disagreement is good and healthy. It's part of a
productive atmosphere. You want people around you who can challenge
your beliefs, but you don't want people just to rubber
stamp where you're going. It doesn't mean you have to
be at loggerheads all the time. But debate is healthy.
(29:41):
It's it's not a bad thing. When you hear about
some friction, that's good. It makes you rethink the different
perspectives in any kind of line of work. I think
is healthy. It's part of what teamwork is all about.
So I'm glad you drove that home. It doesn't mean
that you have to dislike one another. You shouldn't be
challenged by someone's difference of opinion. You actually welcome it.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Let me tell you this, that's been that's really been missing, honestly,
more recently in the game, people players, I mean coaches
are afraid to argue. I think for two reasons. Number one,
they really don't know what they believe anymore. Because again
I'll go back to my minor league training. I knew
what I believed. I knew what I knew based on
the mentors that I had coming up. I knew that
I was firmly entrenched to be the guys today. A
(30:23):
lot of them have not spent enough time being mentored
in the minor leagues by true teachers of the game.
My biggest concern is who's passing on the game to
the next generation of coaches, Even more than players. Who's
the influence, Who are the influencers regarding how the game's
being taught now and how that's going to move forward.
I'm the influencer now based on nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties
(30:47):
baseball and all the people I ran into at that
particular junction, and I bring into bear that and combining
that with what I've learned since then in a more
contemporary approach. Whether you want to call that analytics or not.
But I think I'm able to blend both because I've
had such wonderful mentors to be careful regarding who's coaching
the coaches, who's mentoring that group that's going to bring
(31:09):
the game to the next decade or so.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Well, Joe, That leads me to our next segment here
after a break, we will talk about there will be
at least one managerial change, and it's a guy that
you have a lot in common with.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
We'll talk about that right after this.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast and Joe Madden.
The parallels you have with Terry Francona are very interesting.
You know, Terry hasn't come out and officially announced that
he is going to retire, whatever that may be for Terry,
but yeah, he's not coming back to the Guardians. Just
an incredible career in baseball. You just finished talking about,
(32:00):
you know, getting some experience under your belt, kind of
learning your way up the baseball ladder. He has done that,
not just by playing the major leagues, but he went
to rookie ball, he went to a ball, he went
to double A three years he was in front office.
That was all before he got a job managing the Phillies.
And after the two thousand and three season, it's Joe
(32:23):
Madden and Terry Francona who are both up for the
Boston Red Sox job. Just a loaded team ready to win,
as it turned out, and Terry Francona was the guy
to get it done. Terry Francona wins in Boston, Joe
Madden wins in Chicago with the Cubs too. The longest
droughts to the most historical droughts in sports history, those
(32:44):
two guys ended those droughts. Terry Francona has a career
winning percentage as a manager of five to thirty nine
Joe Madden five thirty two. By the way, Francona ejected
fifty times in his career in Joe Madden fifty nine,
so they've got that as well.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Of course, we.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Cannot forget the twenty sixteen World Series Joe madd and
Terry Francona go up against one another. The darn series
is tied after nine innings in the seventh game. That's
how close that series was. So Terry Francona one of
the true characters in the game. Besides being just a
fantastic manager. I think he's just beloved everywhere that he's
(33:23):
been by every player he's had. So I'm interested, Joe
in your quick thoughts on Tito and and how long
you've gotten to know him.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, like you said, I started in zero four when
he and I both were interviewed for the Red Sox job.
I remember that really, really well, the first obviously big opportunity,
and I remember interviewing with THEO Jed and.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Shoot with the Dodgers name Josh Burns.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Josh Burns, Yeah, and Phoenix. I remember that interview very well.
They put me through a bunch of exercises and I
bought a special suit because Blue but basically told me
I had to all this kind of stuff. And I
sat down in the Phoenician. I think it was, and
we talked, and great experience for me, and of course
I lost out to Terry, but I was I was.
(34:14):
I told THEO later, you did the right thing. You
picked the right guy. It wasn't really ready to be
in Boston at that moment. I think Tito's experience having
been in Philadelphia really played well for him. I think
it made him more exactly ready for that particular job
as I would have been. So I thought that was
a great decision on Theo's choice. Pardon I told him so.
(34:36):
Moving forward, though we had match ax to Lockhorns. You know,
we talked about the winning percentage of the first two
years in Tampa Bay were difficult. Man. We lost one
hundred and almost one hundred games his next first two years.
And then after that in two thousand and eight, that's
when the Rays became good and we played the Red
Sox and that was the first big encounter we had
was Game seven when we won on that ground ball
(34:59):
the hockey and all of a sudden, we're going to
the World Series. The thing about like, just like he said,
with Tito, you know, there's a character about his group,
the fact that they were not afraid, the fact that
he was going to be calm, the fact that you
had to be on your toes, and all these things
that I love when you look on the other side,
looking the other dugout talked to him before the game,
a little gamesmanship going out. He'd messed with you a
(35:21):
little bit, which I loved. But I have so much
respect for him and what he's done in the game,
and that you're right. His players loved him. His players
absolutely adore him, and I think that's because of the
communication factor and that he would build the relationships that
were necessary. We had that game in common. We had
the Wildcard Game also that nobody talks about, and he's
(35:42):
with the Indians when we beat them in the Wildcard
Game to play the Red Sox. Is that I don't know,
but it's that twelve eleven or whatever that year was.
That was a big game. That was where we won.
I think it was four to one. Alex Cott pitch great.
We then played the Red Sox and al Ds and lose.
But then eventually he gets to the big moment with
(36:03):
the World Series in Game seven. So he and I
have had some really big games against one another as managers,
and like I said, the respect is enormous that I
have for him. If he chooses to do this again,
I cannot be happy for him going out on his
own terms and thinks it's great. So yeah, he's a
special guy. We have a lot of common friends that
(36:26):
when I talk to them, they feel the same way.
So if he does choose to do this, I wish
I'm nothing but the best. But he's been outstanding. Joe.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
I see a lot of similarities with you and Terry
and the way you guys manage your ball clubs and
connect with players. It starts with honesty. I mean I
always said that was the number one trade of Joe Tory.
Players knew that whatever he told them, there was no
agenda behind it. It was the honest truth. And sometimes
maybe it was not great news. You didn't want to
(36:54):
hear that you weren't playing or drop from the rotation,
but you knew it was coming from a genuine place.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Terry frank Cone is the same way.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
I think he allows players to be themselves, encourages it
that the best version of yourself, the most productive version
as a baseball player, is going to be a guy
who's able to be himself and not fit into a
system doesn't have a lot of rules, and I know
you're big on that. Give players a freedom to really
express themselves and be themselves as long as they're putting
the work in no problem.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
That's Terry Francona.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
And probably the most famous story with Terry Francona, and
there's a million of those, is falling behind the Yankees
right three in the four Alcs and you know, it's
a wet night at Yankee Stadium and the Red Sox
decided not to take VP on the field. Kevin Malar says,
you know, we're sick of listening to the yankeeographies on
the scoreboard for an hour and a half while we're
(37:45):
working out in the field before the game. And that's
when it was Malar and a couple of other guys,
Johnny Damon decided let's take a shot at Jack Daniels
to get us ready for this game. And of course
they won the game, you'd have to do that the
next night, and so on and so forth. And it
was just that kind of that culture that Terry Francona
really always, no matter what his teams were, whether they
were World Series teams or not, just encourage guys to
(38:08):
be themselves. And I saw that with your clubs, and
I think it's and again it's not you don't want
to be known as quote unquote a player as a
manager because you're two las. Terry like you, he wasn't
beyond you know, having to drop a hammer on his
club with it just airing him out once in a while,
or having a bench a guy if he's not giving
you ninety feet. But I just think establishing that culture,
(38:31):
that atmosphere where players can be themselves. Boy, it's that's
what I think of Terry or Frank Cone when I
think about his years managing.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Right on, I think all that is pertinent. You're right philosophically.
I agree with everything you just said, and just to
boil it down, if I tell you the truth, you
might not like me for a week or ten days,
but if I lie to you, you're going to hate
me forever. And that's pretty much when I have to
have a tough conversation, I will think that in advance.
(39:00):
You know, I've been doing it for a while. I've
had some tough conversations since the mid eighty Seriously, in
Geootry Park, in the little office there, or the Cheenwak
used to sit at they're in instructional leagues that bring
guys in and we would go positives, negatives and then
read off to them what I perceived to be the
goals for this camp. And I wanted them to write
down what their goals are for this camp, bring it
(39:22):
back to me. Then at the end of the camp,
we would review all of this stuff. So a lot
of it came down to just being very frank with
all of these guys, and they love it. A real
professional loves frankness. They want to hear exactly what you're thinking.
And when you do that, when you walk out on
the field there and they look at you, there's not like,
what is he thinking? They know what I'm thinking. They
(39:44):
know exactly what I'm thinking. That's why I was really
big on these meetings, whether it was instructional leagues, spring trainings,
took it to the race, took it to the Cubs,
et cetera. Started that in nineteen eighty four, nineteen eighty five. Actually,
so that's important. I mean, I think if any manager,
whether it's in baseball or in any organization or busines
this group and actually I've had this conversation with some
(40:07):
in the in those positions. One piece of advice would be,
I would as much as you can have individual meetings
with your your lead bulls whoever you perceive these people
to be, or as many employees as you can, because
when you do that and you really create this transparency
where I know exactly what my boss the leader is thinking,
(40:30):
in gentlemen about me, it permits this more at ease
about my job, where I could walk and I could
see him or her and I'm not going to be like, well,
what are they thinking? Because what happens is we always
imagine the worst. You're always going to think the worst
about regarding regarding what does the group of the organization
or the leader think about me. And that's a bad
(40:52):
place to be. And that's where you're imagining things that
are not true, but you give them a certain level
of truth and power. So these are the reasons why
I've done it the way I've done it, And as
you discribe, I think it's exactly what Terry's done too.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Hey Joe again, that game seven in twenty sixteen, It
really is one of the greatest baseball games that any
of us have seen in really across baseball history. It's
so much strategy, so much back and forth. I wonder
if you ever had a chance to talk to Terry
after that game in the years since then about you know,
(41:27):
being part of, let's face it, baseball history from the
strategic standpoint.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
I mean, it was an interesting game to run.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
I wanted to ask you about the situation where Francona
did something I have never seen before or since, and
that's what he took an outfielder out of the game
in the middle of an inning.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
It was the ninth inning. Jason Hayward stole second, advanced
to third on the throwing era. Now he's the winning
run at third base, and Terry Francona takes out Coco
Crisp to put a better arm in the outfield, which
was Michael Martinez. And as it turned out, Michael Martinez
is at the plate with two outs in the last
(42:06):
inning and the guy really had not batted much at
all for Cleveland. That was an interesting move by Terry Francona.
I mean, like you, he's not afraid to make an
outside the box move. There's no question about that.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
But just wondering even about that call and on your end,
sending Jason Hayward in that spot. But if you ever
had a chance to talk to Terry about being part
of baseball history.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Have not, quite, frankly, have not. I don't know why not.
There's no reason why not, but we have not done that.
But getting back to that particular move, Coco Crisp had
a really bad arm. He had heard it years ago,
even in Oakland and Boston. He was he just did
not throw well. So it's understandable why he would make
that move. I mean, if the fly balls at the
(42:53):
cocoa in an area where he could have made a
throat of the plate and we're safe. You killed himself
after the game for not doing it if he had
thought about it. I e. Here comes hobby By there
as again Jason's on third pictures. Sweep's kind of a
sweep slider. He's going to chase right here. Even if
it's two strikes. The better opportunity would be to safe.
(43:13):
They squeeze, because part of that is that you don't
have to go after the pitch if you don't want to.
You could pull the back of it's the ball and
accept ball four. There's all kinds of things going on.
So these are the things you think of you prep
yourself for then you decide to do in the moment
when they When they work, my goodness, you're glorified. When
they don't, you're an idiot. So yeah, I'm listening. When
it came down to that night, didny, I'd much prefer
(43:34):
facing Martinez in the extra innings as opposed to Coco Crisp,
who is actually, you know, not a bad right handed hitter,
and so that it all worked out that way, But
you can't. You have one moment, You have one moment
in time to make that decision. It's revisionism. Is doesn't
work because when you're in a dugout and all these
things are swirling through your head and you've prepped yourself
(43:56):
for that, you make the decision. Some guys would never
make that decision because the thought never came to them,
quite frankly, and that's maybe the a'sually the bane of
having too much experience or too many thoughts or having
been any situations before. Then I was like, wow, I
need to do this right now, and then it doesn't
play out that way, and then why did you do it?
So No, I have not had that conversation with Tito
(44:20):
probably well at some point, but again, quite frankly, the
fact that Martinez was up there really was a lot
better than Coco.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yeah, it's one of my favorite points in the game
that had just a million of them, where you can
go back and look at all the decisions that were
made or moren't made, And for Tito to take out
his outfielder and then for you to put a safety
squeeze on with two strikes on the batter is It's
just it speaks to these guys as managers. Joe Madden,
(44:48):
Terry Francona a lot in common. Terry Francona finishing a
tremendous career more than three thousand and two thousand games
managing the big leagues. I'm not sure what he's going
to do next, but we wish him all the best. Joe,
We're going to take a quick break and we'll up
this last week of the regular season edition of the
Book of Joe right after this, all right, Joe's the
(45:20):
last week of the regular season.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
The air is getting a little cooler.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I have to ask you this, do you change what
you're driving based on the time of year. You've got
some vehicle choices to make, and I'm not sure whether
this time of year presents better for one of your
vehicles than another.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
God, it's such a great question. Right now, I'm only
being limited by the fact that I got to get
a couple of cars registered in Pennsylvania. I'm now a
Pennsylvania resident, and I brought out the bell Air the
other day color Bella and the three P fifty with
fuel injection. The guy that put it together took seven
years to build this car. Oh my god, it runs,
(45:58):
It just runs beautifully. So I drove that. I'm waiting
on the convertible before the weather. I got the seventy
two Chevelle Beautiful like I call it Candy Apple Blue.
Bought it in Chicago when I was still with the
Rays three fifty, also with the six ft trimic transmission.
Again feel injected, beautiful. That's what I want to drive
right now.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yeah, neither neither one of those is the mutter, by
the way, And if you've been on the East coast
the last three days, here right, No, you're not taking
out those babies.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
No, they're they're in the firehouse right now. They're getting
they're just getting some rest. And my van, like my
van is the one the van. It's getting cleaned up.
There's a couple of issues with it yet, but the
van is the one. The van is like, really what
I wanted to beat around in all over northeastern Pennsylvania.
It's a seventy six Dodge Van Tradesman two hundred, you know,
(46:46):
pretty much a shag and wagon. It's got the great
shag in side, tremendous sound system, wonderful air conditioning, new
leather seats that are avocado green with burnt orange, got
a TV in the back. Again. I'm so looking forward
to driving this. It's got a three sixty in it
and now with the four eight stroker Kid, it's really
(47:07):
it's a little bit loud, but it's really cool. That's
what I want to do because once it gets once
it snows and bad up there, none of these play.
I won't take any of these things out unless the
roads are dry and it's not going to freeze. So yeah,
right now, I want to get the Chevelle out there.
I want to convert to I went the top down
last point. These set fifty nine El Caminos on its way,
and this thing is a beauty. Man. I get more
(47:30):
stops on the street when I'm driving the fifty nine
El Camino the first year they made them. Got that
real nautical wood in the back of the bed, a
beautiful red interior, killer sound system. I know. I could
go on and on, but that is the one I
want to get behind the wheel as soon as I
get back to PA.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
That is a beautiful car. It is the shagg And Wagon,
by the way, is also a beautiful car. What is
the name of the color? That's like a bron a
desert bronze or something. What is the name of that color.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
I don't know the exactly. You're right, it's a it's
a desert landscape on it. I bought it through Craigslist
from some dude outside of Pittsburgh at least ten years ago.
I don't know the exact date. I was on every list.
I wanted a seventy six dodge Man because Doug s
Levette used to take me to cal State Fullerton in
nineteen seventy six for my first Angel spring training. We
used to work out at cal State Fullerton. He picked
(48:19):
me up at an Ted's house and Uncle Rick's on
Gardener Street in Elder out of Park in Long Beach.
He picked me up. We drive down to Long Beach State.
We would work I mean, excuse me to cal State Fullerton.
We'd work out, and he'd drive me back. And he
had a seventy six black Dodge Van, And for years
I wanted one of those, so I researched, research, research. Finally,
(48:40):
I think I paid about nine or ten thousand bucks
for this way. Put way more into it than that.
But believe me, it runs great when it's right on.
And I'll tell you the thing about these, it's the jeep.
It really handles like a jeep in a parking lot.
The wheelbase is so far forward and back that it
really is maneuverable. So that's why I got it. And
(49:00):
it's that desert landscape kind of an orange like you're
saying brown, like almost like you're in the desert between Arizona,
New Mexico. It's gorgeous and I can't wait to wait.
I cannot wait to get back behind the wheel.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
On that one key question, Joe doesn't have an eight
track player?
Speaker 2 (49:18):
No, I don't need it anymore because I got Bluetooth.
I mean I got Bluetooth, bunch of bluetooth. It it's like,
you know, you just bring your phone in there and
also and just took it up. Man, you got everything
at your disposal. And this sound is incredible. Oh full
cow speaker.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Is beautiful, sounds lovely. Hey, it does sound love it.
This is this is it for the regular season.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
We are certainly going to be back next week diving
into the postseason matchups.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
A few spots still left to decide here, So anything
special this week Joe to take us out in our
final regular season edition of the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
You know what, it's incredible because for the folks that
don't know this, sometimes, like days like this when we
don't have a guest, I really don't know where Tommy's
going to go with the topics, and I just react
to the next tempraneously.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
I do like to surprise you.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
And I love it. I actually love it, and I
like that I.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
Can go anywhere and you cover it so well.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
But here's the thing. So I pick up my quote
of the day without knowing the topics of the day, right,
and this cannot be more germane and I love it.
And it comes from Herman Melville, who you know, Moby Dick,
and I read I read Wisdom of the Ages by
Meane dire years ago. It's like sixty of his but
he perceives to be some of the most critical passages
(50:32):
in history from the most influential people. And he has
a passage from Melville with Moby Dick and it's about
your insular Tahiti where you need to escape to when
he gets crazy. But this also comes from Melbolle, and
really I love it. And I'm going too far here,
but it is better to fail in originality than to
succeed in imitation. Wow. When I read that that, I
love that. It's so true and it cannot be more germane.
(50:55):
Like I said, to what's going on in the world today.
Everybody wants to imitate everybody else. It's just the real
imaginative or original person sometimes has a hard time because
it does not really morph into the group as easily
in a sense. So I love that fail and originality
as opposed to succeed in imitation. Wow, that's what I
(51:15):
love to see.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
In baseball, that is so well said Harmon Melville.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
I'm not sure if you ever covered baseball, but that
was some writer who hit the nail on the head,
because to.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Me, maybe a double day had everybody.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
It's those who want to kind of copy others and
join the quote unquote wisdom of the crowd. That's the
definition of being average. And who wants to be average?
Be yourself.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
But look at your rear works as a writer, man,
you're so original. You're so able to with your research
and your own vast resource of knowledge in your in
your own personal history, You're able to weave things together
so well. And that's all original. That's not you. You.
You don't imitate anybody, and that's why people love you
writing so much.
Speaker 3 (51:56):
Find your own inner Tahiti. Also, I love that.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
That's right. That's right, baby, that's right, that's right. Check
it out.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
We'll see it next week week on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
All right, brother, Thank you man.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Fox Sports Radio News
Host
Jonas Knox
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.