September 13, 2024 • 52 mins
In this episode of 'The Book of Joe' Podcast, Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci welcome Nationals GM Mike Rizzo to the podcast! Mike talks about being a player under Joe Maddon and how his career went from playing to being in the front office. We touch on blending old school and new methods to improve scouting and player evaluations. Joe stresses how he prefers leadership by empowerment, not leadership by control. We wrap up by honoring Ed Kranepool and James Earl Jones, noting their contributions to the baseball community.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Dary, welcome back. It's the latest episode of the
Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of
course Joe Madden and Joe. We got a special guest today.
(00:24):
One of your former players is here. We're going all
the way back, though. When I say former players, to
your first managing job and the first of his forty
three seasons in professional baseball, I'm talking about the nineteen
eighty two Salem Angels of the Northwest League and Mike Rizzo. Mike,
I know you've won World championships with the Diamondbacks in
(00:45):
the front office with the Nationals as President of Baseball
Operations and general manager. But I'm sure your career highlight
is that summer playing for the Salem Angels and Joe Maddenda.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Past didn't we jell was It was a fun season.
It was my indoctrination to professional baseball. I was a
nervous from Chicago and got hooked up with a great
skipper who was young and energetic and a little crazy himself.
And it was a nice ride to the championship in
my first World Series ring. It was fun.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, we had a great time, and that was really
an interesting summer. And I know you probably don't maybe
remember this, but we beat of course, we beat Metford.
The Metford Athletics were like the fifty three and seventeen
or something like that. Going into the playoffs, we were
thirty four and thirty six, two games under five hundred
two different divisions obviously, and we Kirk McCastle and Arbano
(01:41):
Lugo pitched two great games. But one of the things
was Riz. Remember we played there during the season. We
had a bad game, you're playing first base, had a
tough day, and the writer there, whoever the writer was,
the local journalist, really highly criticized us in the newspaper
and I really took an umbradge to that. I was
offended by this and actually threatened the guy afterwards that
(02:01):
I got a call from the league president because he
such skating stuff about my rookie league club. So that's
what I remember. Also, it was a great year, full
of personalities. Like you're talking about, We played great. We
had uh Mark maclamore and Kevin Davis up the middle,
seventeen year old middle infielders. Riz was of course one
of the veteran group. He was this one of the
(02:22):
stage members of the team that kept things loose and irrelevant.
So it was it was really it was one of
my funnest summers as a as a baseball manager, as
a baseball person.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Was that great.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Well, Mike, you mentioned that you thought your skipper was
a little bit crazy. Give us an insight on what
a young Joe Madden was like as a manager.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, he was. He was young. That was the first
thing that struck me. You know, he was. I think
you were like three or four years older than than
some of the players on the team. And you know,
I think you were, you know, you were cutting your
teeth as a as a manager at the time. You
I know, you scouted an area and then managed half
the in the half a club. So it was fun
kind of like growing together. And you know, I was,
(03:02):
you know, I was a clueless kid at the time.
Obviously I was twenty one years old and uh and
you had all the answers and until you don't have them,
And it was it was an interesting It was an
interesting dynamics. See all all these different personalities from all
over the world, all over the country kind of getting
together for one common goal and we were below five hundred.
(03:24):
But I remember we we we got hot at the
right time and we we took we took that into
uh into the playoffs and beat a really you know,
really accomplished Oakland A's minor league team, and UH, I
remember my favorite, my favorite memory is the trip back
and uh but we were on we were on the
bus and uh we were busting it back and we
(03:44):
we had a blast and it was you know, kind
of the first the first taste of of what what
success is in professional baseball. And uh, I'll never forget
the Uh, I'll never forget the euphoria that that we had,
you know, on the field and in a visitors ballpark,
and then and then taking it on a bus and
and you know, driving that long trip home that seemed
(04:07):
like it went in five minutes, It was probably five hours.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
We celebrated that night at the hotel swimming pool, and
then there was a lot of adult beverages consumed and eventually,
like you said, on the road, right back, Kirk mccaskell,
Captain Kirk, he's getting up the bus in Salmon. It's
probably like I don't know, two TV cameras and whatever
that's a little bit concerned. I said, listen, put your
sunglasses on and keep them on as you get out
(04:31):
there and talk to people.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
It was hysterical.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
We had a great time and it was with the
culmination of a really, really fun summer.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Well, Mike, I know you come from a great baseball background,
third generation scout. Of course, your dad was in the
Phil Rizzo, the inaugural class of the Pro Scouts Hall
of Fame. So take me back to when, first of all,
the Angels drafted you out of high school. He's back
in nineteen seventy nine, twenty eighth round pick by the Angels.
What was your thinking then, what was the thought for
(04:59):
you about entering professional baseball?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, Joe and I have another common ally is the
scout who signed both of us as the same scout, Nick,
the late great Nick Kenzick, who was a was an
Angel Mount Rushmore piece, in my opinion, over there with
the with the California Angels. So I drafted out of
high school, wasn't ready to play pro ball obviously, and
went on to college. And then three years later Nick
(05:23):
drafted me again and got an opportunity to play three
great years in the minor leagues. It was some of
the most fun times in my in my life. And uh,
you know, we talk about the grind, and you know
how tough it is to play in the minor leagues.
I loved it. I loved the bus rides. I love
the common the camaraderie with the with the other players,
and uh and uh just uh, you know, just the
(05:46):
idea of playing baseball for a living was was something
that really appealed to me. I loved it, and I
was bit by the baseball bug early in my life,
and I knew I was gonna that was gonna be
my career path. It took a detour when uh, you know,
the league tells you that you don't belong in the
big leagues, and the league told me early in my
career I didn't belonging there. But I still wanted to
(06:07):
have a career in major league baseball, so I took it.
I took a different path, but it was it was
a path that it's been very fruitful for me, and
baseball's giving me everything I have in life.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Mike, let me ask you real quick about that fork
in the road, because you know, Joe and I have
written about this extensively. When that moment comes when you
love a game so much and somebody tells you you're
not good enough to play anymore. You mentioned three years
your third year? Was it with Redwood in nineteen eighty four.
How did you get the word that, you know, Mike Rizzo,
(06:40):
you may have to try something else because playing is
not working out for you. And what was that like?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Well, it was It was shocking to me. You know.
I guess I was a bad self evaluator. But I
remember to call I got from Billy benac Joe. You
remember Billy. Oh, yeah, he gave you a call. He
was the farm director at the time and said, hey, Riz.
He said, we're gonna let you go, and said all
the right things and was very kind about it, was
very complimentary about it as he as he released me,
(07:08):
and I thought he was I thought they were making
a mistake, you know. I told him, I said, you know,
you know, I'm going to make it to the big
leagues and I'm going to stick it to you every
time we get there, and blah blah blah blah blah.
And then soon after after, I you know, after I
calmed down a little bit, my dad grabbed me, who
was you know, a nine year minor league player in
his day, and then in a long time scout and
(07:29):
baseball guy kind of sat me down and really gave
me the real information about what it takes to get
to the big leagues and that you know, he didn't
feel that I had the skills to do it, but
you can make a great living in this thing. I've
got a lot to offer to the game. And you know,
you could be a manager or a front office person,
you know, if you want to be. And and that
(07:51):
was that was my next decision because I was going
to hook on with another team. Another team offered me
a contract to play in the minor leagues, in the
low low A ball level, and he told me, said, hey,
you could kick around this thing for years and you know,
be a baseball bump like I was nine years in
and it couldn't you know, you don't provide for your
family because you don't make any money obviously in the
minor leagues, or you could take another route. And you know,
(08:12):
with that conversation, I decided that it was time to
stay in the game. But I finished my education at
University of Illinois, which was a promise I made to
my mom. When I signed, and very fortunate that while
I was at University Illinois, the scouting director who signed
me at the time, Larry Hines, became the general manager
(08:35):
of the White Sox and remembered me through Nick Hamsick
and offered me a scouting job with the White Sox,
which was the start of my post playing career.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
That is so much good stuff right there for me.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
I mean, like a lot of he's mentioning people, Tommy
and I've spoken about from Larry.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
To your pop to Nikki.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
The thing that I love and the reason why I
think you've been so successful is because you got involved
in scouting so soon, so early in your career. That's
what people don't quite understand anymore. And I don't even know,
Michael to the extent that how many scouts teams have
on the road, because when we came up, it was
the lifeblood of the organization, there's no question. And the
scouts you're talking about are iconic and those are the
(09:14):
guys that taught me. I mean, I had some wonderful
and obviously the reason why I was able to do
it I did as a coach and the manager was
because of all the guys on the field. But the
scouts man got me first and right from Nicki. With
Nicki Kamsick, you used to stop in the Quad City,
take you out for beer, try to pump you up
a little bit. Love nick from the point he signed
me at the Broadview Hotel and which would talk Kansas
(09:35):
back in seventy five. But you learn so much from
these guys, and if you learn how to scout, you
really understand the game well, the ability to really contribute
just by your brain and your ability to see things
and transmit them to others.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
And this is the reason why groups are successful. To me,
when it comes.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Down analytics, the biggest or the most important part of
analytics to me is acquisitional off season stuff. That's when
that's when I really as if I were in that position,
would really utilize the numbers and analytics to really compare
and contrast different players and make it augment my scouting department,
not just replace it.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
But that's just getting to.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
The point is that I believe that scouting not spoken
about enough. The guys that are really true icons in
the game not spoken about enough. That is the reason
why the game was great, and they gave me my
opportunity and those are the guys that really taught.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Me, no question. And I think the teams that do
it best now are a good blend and a good balance.
They marry the analytics with the human element, and I
think that those are the teams that are most successful.
I think it's still a vital part of our process here.
You know, we have people see players and utilize all
(10:48):
the data and all the video that we can to
supplement that. But I'll tell you one thing. I was
just talking about this with ownership the other day. It
was that you know you're at the trade deadline, and
you know things are coming fast at you. And when
you have a scouts report from scout that you trust,
a Casey mckeeon and Dan Jennings, Steve Varniery, one of
(11:08):
these one of these great guys that know the game,
Chris Klein, who you and I love and know for forever.
When when those guys have a report on you and
they stamp a guy that they like that you, it
gives me a great assurance that I feel comfortable taking
this player in a trade. But when you're going just
on video or just on on analytical data and numbers,
(11:32):
it gives me a trepidation to to really pull the trigger.
But when I get the blend of both and we
marry both of them and both of them are saying
kind of the same thing, those are the ones that
I say, well, that's the trade I want to make.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
That's interesting, Mike, because I was going to ask you,
and hopefully you have some background on this, the trade
involving the San Diego Padres and Juan Soto in August second,
twenty twenty two. It's very rare for me in my
memory when I when I see a team that needs
to trade an impact player for contractual reasons or whatever.
Very rare the teams do well. It's hard to get
(12:06):
equal value when you've got anything close to equal value
when you've got a talent like a Wan Soto. But
I use your trade there with San Diego as an
example of identifying the right players, and that is putting
the Nationals back on track here to contention, a lot
quicker than otherwise would have happened. Just to refresh people's mind,
you traded Mon Soto and Josh Bell for Robert Hassel
(12:26):
the Third, Hardlein, Susana cj Abrams, Mackenzie Gore, Luke Voight,
and James Wood Mike, give us an idea of the
process that went into that trade. I know it wasn't
something that was done you know, off the back of
the envelope in the last hour you mentioned this, Goalt,
tell me the information you were looking for? What sold
you on those particular players.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Well, you know, we had an iconic player, like you
said that that had two and a half years of
control for a team and you know which is you know,
translates to me as three playoff runs for the team
that acquires them. The great part of the trade which
made it possible for us to acquire the tie of
talent that we did, was we didn't have to trade
and that was probably the most important levers that that
(13:08):
I had, and it was it was it was a
true statement that we were going to make this trade
UH that made sense for us, or we were going
to keep one Soto And so I think that that
really aided me and UH and being aggressive with with
a handful of teams that really at the end of
the day we were there were there was really only three,
three or four teams at the end of the day
(13:30):
that were that had the players that had the the
incentive that were aggressive enough to to really talk about
this trade and and to you know, get into the
weeds with who you're going to take and that type
of thing. And uh, and you know it ended up
being you know, San Diego was the team that was
most aggressive. I gave ownership and a j Preller credit.
(13:50):
They went after it and and and acquired a lot
of good talent that made it possible to get one Soto.
And you know, at the end of the day, we
leaned hard on our scouts, our analytical people. We put
together a nice blueprint and a nice plan to acquire
the players that we had to acquire to make the trade.
And at the end of the day, uh, when uh,
(14:12):
when we added Josh Bell to the deal, and and
uh Susannah was thrown into the deal because of that,
then then uh, we both sides felt comfortable that they
were acquiring the people that they needed to acquire to
get this deal done.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
That's pretty cool, especially a guy like James Wood Mike,
when you when you have someone who's that young and
obviously great physical ability, but I mean, we see him
in the big league level now we realize there's a
lot more in the tank there. He hasn't even filled
out yet. What jumped out to you your scouts at
that time, and was he someone you had to have
in the deal?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah? There was, there was you know five the four
players that we we that we acquired, Gore, Abrams, Hassle
and would they were must must have in the in
the one soda portion of it. And then when uh,
when we we had discovered we had just discovered you know,
luck or chance or hard work or whatever that Susannah
(15:09):
was pitching that he was just a rookie ball guy
in the Arizona Rookie League. And we happened to have
a scout down there because we were you know, we
had we had really blanketed that the Padres organization and
we saw this young kid, I think at the time
it was probably seventeen or eighteen year old kid and
he was in the backfield below in about one hundred,
one hundred and two miles an hour. Got a call
(15:30):
from the scout as we were negotiating this this this
deal and said, you know, this is a this is
a must have throw in type of guy at the
end there and went to aj about it, and obviously
that they became too expensive for him. To put in
a guy like Susannah. So we added Josh Bell to
the deal, and he had a Susannah and then and
then we got a deal. But Woodsy is a he's
(15:54):
a mega talent that that is just scratching the surface.
He's he's got the he's got the offensive skill that
I think is is most important to a young hitter
is that he has command of the strike zone. He
knows the strike zone, he rarely goes outside of it,
and he makes makes good heart contact with the ball
(16:15):
in the zone. You know, he's a big exit velocity guy,
and you know, he hits the ball hard, and he's
got great leverage with his swing, and he goes first
to third and he goes home to third. Joe, he
reminds me of the strikes that Devon White had when
he was back with us. This guy just lopes up
out there. He doesn't look like he's he's gaining ground,
(16:36):
but he is. He's chewing up turf and he's an
elite runner. Now we throw him in left field. He's
never never really played left field before and h and
he's learning the position at the big league level along
with you know, how to hit and how to survive
in the big leagues.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
My observation just listening to you talk about this year,
you just you said it earlier, your process including both
old school and new school methods, and you're the way
you're going blending back back and forth regarding your description
of him, indicates that you truly know what you believe
in what you know because you're talking about the first,
the third, the strides, the loping strides of Devon White,
(17:13):
but then you're also mentioning the exit velocity. That's to me,
that's the true essence of what needs to be done
right now. Just can't be one sided. And that's that's
why I appreciate it. Your your method from the moment
you went on uh with the Diamondbacks. I remember talking
to you out in Arizona one time, we just saw
each other, maybe in a hallway. I was so proud
and happy for you. And then eventually get this job,
(17:34):
you and Davut win the World Series. But that's the
thing that I think is not it's talked about often,
but not necessarily happening where there's a blend going on,
and I think that's that's the true way to get
this thing properly done and I respect how you got there,
and I respect, uh, you know, the path that you've taken,
because again, when you talk about things like this, you're
not just saying it to say it.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
You've actually lived these different things.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
You've lived bus rides, you've lived being with your daddy
and Nicky Camsick, and then again you you've accumulated and
acquired a really good analytical team there in Washington, and
then you blended together. So I like your description because
it does just like you had spoken about, it does
blend together both old and new school tenants, which I
believe is the right way to do this right.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Well, I think I think any good leader, Joe tom
is you know, is I think that you have to
know yourself and know your strengths and weaknesses. And I
know what my strengths are. You know, I'm comfortable and confident.
I know baseball, I know players. But you know, when
I'm calling my teeth at this job is I'm almost
I'm always a GM now for eighteen years. I've been
(18:41):
with the team since since you know, day one, and
I need to surround myself with guys not like me,
that are that had skill sets that I don't have.
So so we you know, we put together an analytical team.
We've we've got some of the smartest, sharpest men and
women in the game and everywhere from M I. T
(19:02):
To Harvard and Universe, Maryland and everywhere in between. And
I think that, uh that you know, what what we
do here is to work for me. Even even if
you're an analytical genius, you have to have respect for
the game of baseball and for the people out out
in the field. And uh, because I always say player development,
guys in the minor leagues and scouts, scouts driving the
(19:23):
highways and that type of stuff. You know, they're they're
the unsung heroes. They don't get paid enough. They don't
they don't get enough accolades and that type of thing.
And without them, we are nothing. And uh there you
can't feel a championship team without them. That's what I
said on the podium when I was lifting the trophy.
This is for all the you know, the coaches, uh,
pounding fungos to a to a guy in a ball
and for all the scouts, uh, you know, driving through Kansas,
(19:46):
you know, to you know, three hundred miles to get
to the next game. Without you guys, that we don't.
You know, we don't have the Rendons in the Strasbourgs
and the Sures of the world because there's nobody there
to see them and and nobody there to scout them
and sign them. And uh and it's uh, it's something
that we've incorporated with our club. There's there's a mutual
respect for numbers and and for and for people and
(20:08):
uh and we can't forget this is a people's game
and uh. And the players are what it's all about.
And the players make us win and lose. And you know,
we can coach as much as we want, we can
manage as much as we want, and GM as much
as you want. Without the players, we have nothing. So
uh and without the scouts and the player development guys,
it's it's hard to develop these guys into into championship
(20:32):
caliber people.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Leadership being about empowerment, leadership not being about control.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
And that's what you're describing to me right there.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I think too, in today's world, the word leader or
leadership has been confused with control.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
And I like that.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I mean, everything you're describing it doesn't surprise me whatsoever
based on your background, but I think that's that's been
been confused more lately, where leadership needs to be about
empowering the group. If you hire somebody to do a job,
let them do their job and not try to control
what they do and their outputs. So again, I mean,
that doesn't surprise me because of like I said, where
you come from. But I do appreciate that explanation because
(21:06):
I can't agree with you more.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Joe, I'm sure you realize pretty quickly back in eighty two,
what a competitive guy Mike Rizzo is. I have to
ask him, because this is the only guy I know
who's been ejected from a Major League baseball game from
his suite in the upper deck. We will ask him
about that right after this short break. We are speaking
(21:40):
with Mike Rizzo, president of Baseball Operations and general manager
of the Washington Nationals, And as I mentioned, the only
man I know is ejected from a baseball game for
arguing with an umpire from his spot in his suite.
Of course, this is twenty twenty, nobody's in the stands,
and the umpire is, of course, Joe West. So Mike,
you got to tell me the story behind this one,
(22:02):
because I can't quite think else quite like it.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Well, you know, you know, Joe's in that kund of
umpire and think umpired more games than anybody in the
in the history of baseball. And it was it was
that weird twenty twenty season which I hated with a passion.
Just nobody into ballpark. It was like it was like
it was like, you know, big time instructional league games,
because you could hear the crack of the bath, the
(22:28):
echoes and the dugouts, you know, people's you know, people
you know, saying stuff. So I was in the third
deck of in Atlanta. I had to be eight hundred
one thousand feet away from home plate, and you know,
I'm in a suite by myself. I've got the TV,
you know, right above me, so I know that I
know where the strike zone is. And things was up
(22:48):
and it was in it was like the fourth inning
or something of a midweek game or something like that.
It wasn't any kind of big situation. And I think
Hunter Wendlstart was up in the plate and he called
a pitch a strike, and it was it was way
way outside his own and I've got, like I said,
and I've got the strikes on right here. So I
yelled from one thousand feet away. You know, the word brutal,
(23:09):
probably very loud. And all of a sudden, they're pointing,
they're pointing up somewhere up around me, and uh and
they they said that, they said I was I was
ejected from the from the game or from the park.
Of course I wouldn't leave. So we had a little
delay there and they wanted me to leave the park.
I refused to leave, so the game went on being
(23:31):
five minutes later and I stayed there. So I don't
know what the what the all the hubbub was about,
but it was. It was It was interesting that that
I got ejected from a game, but it wasn't It
wasn't my first May it probably won't be my last.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Just quickly too. And Riza, he and I talk about
this all the time.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
At first season with the Salem Angels at Chameka, the
field he started to fight at home played against the
ben Phillies. That was outstanding. It ended up everybody was
pressed against the backstop. I don't even remember how long
it went on play at the plate. I can remember
exactly how it unfolded. The Beast might have been there,
Doug Rivell might have been there to support you other
Chicago guy.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
We were We were just full of Chicago guys because.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Of Nick and his pop. It was outstanding. These guys
are not afraid to fight. That this really great brawl,
a real one behind home plate. And I remember this
guy by named adam Ac I think playing for the Phillies.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
It was like pressed up against the backstop. It was
so cool. And those are the kind of moments that
really galvanized the team. I really believe that. I'll argue
that with anybody, but I really appreciate it. And you're
talking about the fighting spirit of Michael. It says it
was obvious even back.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Then because he did not back off, and here both
benches empty.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
It was outstanding.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I would like to abridge that this school a little bit.
And you keep saying I start. You keep saying I
started the fight. I finished the fight. They started. It
was starting at the collision at home plate.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
And who wasn't the collision.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I think it was Govea, I'm not positive by I
think it might have been David who ran ran over
to catcher legal play and then and then as he
was walking to the dugout, the catcher was going going
to get him from behind and I was on deck
and I interceded.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
That's well done.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Big enough to start a prite fight? Was tall skinny
guy from what north Ridge.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Cal State? Nor exactly exactly. I don't think.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I mean, he was a tall, skinny first baseman. I
don't think he was tough enough to start that.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Thank god you, Hey, Mike, one of your teammates that
we we bring up his name once in a while,
Jay Lewis. Do you ever know what happened to Jay Lewis?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Jay Lewis, Yeah, I do not know what happened to him,
but he was trying. He was a pretty player though
he was He was a pretty player.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
That was one of what was our scouts name in
the Louisiana guy was yeah Texas Oklahoma, Texas Oklahoma, I
think was from j Bird was from Oklahoma. Lou Snip
Snippers signed him. It was one of the Snips guys.
And he had a bunch of those twos from the
junior colleges from Oklahoma, Northern Texas, Louisiana, et cetera. Nice
(26:11):
bodies and somewhat somewhat talented, but never never really quite
did it.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Hey, Mike, I want to ask you about this year,
you and your wife Jody, you established the Rizzo Family Foundation,
and a big part of that is the RIZK Kids Initiative,
which strives for educational equity for underserved children and families,
brands and scholarships. Tell me about where this idea came from, Mike, Well.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
You know, we you know, like like I said earlier,
you know, I've been here in Washington, d C. Twenty years.
So I've made this my home. And as time goes on,
Mom passed, Dad. Dad passed right after the World Series.
The last game you ever saw Joe was Game seven
the World Series. Uh, so he got a happy man.
H and then and then, uh two years ago, my
sister passed away at ALS. So you know, as as
(26:57):
we're as Jody and I are sitting there, we're thinking
that you know, we've got you know, this game has
been right to me, and I've made a lot of
money doing doing what I'm doing, and you know it's
time to give something back and to leave a legacy
when I'm when I'm not the GM anymore of the nationals. Uh.
And we felt, what's what's a better way to do
it than put all our attention into the underprivileged young
(27:21):
people of Washington, d C. So we've really focused on
the DC area and on young people. We've we've offered
several college scholarships in my sister's name. Under her we
offer to corporations that do that, we give them a
contribution to to do great things in the in the
(27:43):
DC area, and just giving back to people because we've
had such a wonderful life here and and they've treated
us in this town so great. You know, I live
I lived just until recently, I lived, you know, downtown
by the ballpark for fifteen years and you know, through
the good times, do the rebuilds, the bad times and
(28:05):
all that stuff, the championship years and the lean years.
This neighborhood and this district has embraced me and taken
me in and have been good to me. And I
felt that it was at a great idea to honor
my mother and father and my sister and create riz
kids and do it. I do a small a small
(28:27):
piece that I could do to empower kids and to
make their lives a little bit better.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
That's outstanding, And Joe, I couldn't help but think about
your own situation. Of course, your dad wasn't around for
game seven of the World Series in twenty sixteen or
two thousand and two. But I'm sure with the way
you brought his hat into the dugout with you definitely
on your mind. You guys have a lot in common,
it seems we do.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I mean often said when I was with the Cubbies
that Hazelton is a microcosm of Chicago. When you're in Chicago,
it's like it's a city of neighborhoods. You don't feel
like you're in a big city necessary till you get downtown.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
It's this sprawling.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Group of neighborhoods that's just attached to one another. And
my smaller town is the same way. And you have
all the different ethnicities throughout the city, and there's a
toughness about the people, but there's also a kindness about
the people, and there's a way that we support one another,
whether it's here or bear in Chicago. I've always felt,
I mentioned it earlier, like the strong affinity with the
Chicago guys. Whenever I got to Chicago guys on any level,
(29:30):
I've always enjoyed them. A great sense of humor, played hard,
didn't need to be stroked all the time. You could
be straight up with them. They're not going to fold.
These are the kind of things that I think is
indigenous to that particular area. I mean, you're talking about,
you know, parents and father growing up. Same respect for
my dad. That Mike hat for his my backpack is
(29:50):
in the other room right now. My dad's hat is
still in that backpack. So I think when you have
that kind of foundation structure that was built by your parents,
it's going to stay with you. It's not going anywhere,
and you're going to be in some way, you know,
chip off the old block, kind of a piece, a
remnant of that other person. That is a good thing
(30:11):
because you really want to be like your pop. My
dad had a great work work ethic, so did Michaels,
and we were just very fortunate of those kind of parents.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Well said, and Mike, we got one more job for
you before we let you go. We like to play
a game with our guests here. It's called a reading
from the Book of Joe. We like to think that
you could turn to any page in our book, the
Book of Joe, and find something interesting, funny, touching, you
name it. So we ask our guests to pick any
(30:39):
number between one and three hundred and sixty nine, and
we will turn to that page and find out what's
on that. So it's your turn at bat, Mike Rizzo,
you pick a number between one and three sixty nine.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Let's pick fourteen.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And now I've got to ask you why that number
came to your mind? Why you picked it?
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Well, well, it's kind it's kind of been a lucky
number of mine, and I'm just figuring it book. I
want to I want to hear early early Madden in
the beginning.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Okay, well.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I knew Early Madden.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
I know that's what he did.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
He does, I confess, Well, how appropriate is this? Madden
has been shaped by the lessons and wisdom of great
leaders throughout his life, especially in his formative years. It
began with his parents. I mean, we can't make this
stuff up.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Joe right exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
This was along with their father, Carmen Madden, Joseph Anthony Madden,
and his four brothers operated see Madden and Sons Plumbing
and Heating in Hazleton, Pennsylvania, known throughout the blue collar
cold town as Joe the Plumber. Madden's father kept pipes
and furnaces and working conditions there for sixty years. Always
with a smile on his face and the phillies between
(31:56):
his teeth. Mad's mother, Albina, known to everyone as Beanie,
worked into her eighties at Hazelton's third base Lunch in It,
which lived up to its name as the closest thing
to home from them, he learned the value of it
honest day's work, and how to meet challenges with a smile.
So there you go, Mike Rizzo. You went straight to
the heart of who Joe Madden.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Is beautiful early mad and I love it.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
That's incredible, though this stuff happens with this all the time,
and you picked up a page number fourteen. We just
got done talking about it. I come up with a
quote of the day at the conclusion of all of this,
and I might and Tommy never talked me what the
subject matter is going to be, what the questions are
going to be, like whatever, And I just react to
this show and so almost always it comes it matches
(32:43):
up that.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
That's incredible, well done.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, it's been so much fun, Mike. Before we let
you go. For our Nationals fans listening out there, they're
encouraged by what they're saying here. You seem like you're
on the right track. Give me a sense of where
Washington is going forward from here.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
No, I think we could see the light at the
end of the tunnel. I mean, they've been very patient
in the rebuild, you know, since you know, we started
this thing in twenty one, and you know, we've last
place finishes and there's no fun with that. It's tough
to be a fan with that. But I think they
trust the process and we've done it in the past.
We have a blueprint to get back to the championship
level of play. So we've got a lot of good
(33:22):
young players. We're in position to kind of take next
steps and go from go from rebuilding to potential to
compete and hopefully once we get to the competing mode
that you know, we'll have another ten year run like
we had you know, from you know, from twelve to
(33:43):
to through the World Series Championship in nineteen and where
we were, you know, one of the best teams in
baseball for about you know, eight to ten years in
a row. So that's that's our goal. This game is
Joe tells me this all the time. This game is hard.
It's hard to win games in the big leagues, and
winning a big League game is hard and should be celebrated,
(34:05):
and and we do. It's humbling and you know, just
when you think you're on the right track, we we've been.
You know, we've been playing good baseball with a really
young team. I think we have six, six or seven
rookies in the starting lineup. On any given day, you know,
you run into an Atlanta Braves team like we did
last night, and they humble you. And the good thing
about this game is it does humble you and does
make you make you stronger if you're if you're cut
(34:26):
from the right cloth. So I think we we are
we are cut from the right cloth. Davy Martinez has
got the team playing really, really hard. We play with
our hair on fire. Oftentimes it's it's not pretty, but
they're learning. But it's uh. I think I think people
here see it. We're going in the right direction and uh.
And our plan is to is to compete for for
(34:48):
many years after this and with the support of the
fans and the ownership and and the group, I think
we're on the on the doorstep of something going on
another special run like we did in the past.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Before you go to just make sure you tell Kkhillo
me please, and also David the rest of the coaching staff.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Chris Kleine brought him up earlier.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
I signed KK ad a Grand Canyon College at that time,
and I really thought, I really thought KK was gonna
be a big league player. Six three sixty four, ran well, hit, line, drive, hitter,
played shortstop, could do other things. KK was always one
of my favorite players. So give him my best please.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
He's been with me till this day since nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Yeah, that's awesome, love it.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
That's awesome. This has been so much fun. Mike really
appreciated all the best to you and the Washington Nationals.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Thanks guys, thanks to appreciate it. And Joe always a pleasure.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Same.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Heybody be well, well, there's still more on the Book
of Joe podcast and Joe teas to his Court of
the day. We'll have that and more when we get
back right after this. Welcome back to the Book of
(36:01):
Joe podcast. Joe had to be really fun for you
to get down memory lane a little bit there with
Mike Rizzo his first year in pro ball, your first
year in pro ball, and the Roads meet in Salem,
Oregon about it.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, listen, always very daring to my heart and him
and that an entire group, and again we just talked
about it. Something about him and that group. For the
Chicago guys I've always really enjoyed. Could see when he speaks,
very straightforward, very passionate about what he does. Great background.
He talked about his dad, Phil and Nicky Cam's like
(36:36):
legendary scout in the Midwest, and really fortunate that Nicky
was my signing.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
Scout as well as his.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
The success he's had with the d Backs and now
with the Nationals, I could not be happier for him.
I think it's great, and like he said, he's kept
the Chris Klein of all people. Kk's with him still
and of course David Martinez, my former bench coach, Hickey
my pitching coach. So yeah, you got a root for them.
I root for them all the time. Very happy for
his success. But this is this is a street fighting
(37:04):
kind of a guy, and like I said, you could
you could almost see it in his face and hear
it in his voice, so it's not going to go away.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
I like the approach.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
I like the blend of the fact that he talked
about blending the newer methods absolutely with the older and
when he speaks, he speaks like an old school scout,
which I really appreciate.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, he'll let you know how he feels too. I
mentioned he got thrown out by Joe West. He talked
about that. He also once called Cole Hamil's gutless because
he hit Bryce Harper with a pitchman. I think Bryce
was a rookie and he got fined by Major League
Baseball for speaking his mind and calling Cole Hamill's gutless.
So you got to love that about him.
Speaker 4 (37:38):
I do.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
And that's that's the whole thing. I mean, tell me
what you think, not what you've heard. That's one of
my lines. And Michael's always going to tell you what
he thinks. He's never about what he's heard. I love
those guys that get out there in front and and
again are they're just he could say those things comfortably because.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
That's how he grew up. This is who he is.
This is his fabric.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
It's not like he's not reading books and trying to
become somebody that he's not.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
He's just he is an open book.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
This is who he is viscerally and again, whenever you
work in this industry of baseball, one of the things
that I've always mentioned about my coaching staffs. The one
character trait I love about them is that they're fearless.
Their fearlessness about them that they're going to have tough conversations,
They're going to say what they think, They're not going
to back down, be open minded, but nevertheless still.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
Know what you think. And he's a perfect example of that.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
On a sadder note, Joe, we lost a couple of
guys in the baseball community this week. Ed Cranpool was
one of those eighteen seasons with the New York Mets.
Remember he was signed out of James Monroe High School
in the Bronx a bonus baby in nineteen sixty two
by the New York Mets. He got an eighty thousand
dollars bonus, a lot of money back in the day,
(38:52):
and you probably would applaud what he did with the money, Joe.
He bought a white Thunderbird and he bought a home
in white planes for his mom.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
How could you not be a steady Eddy crane Pool fan.
Never got to meet him, obviously, but growing up right did.
I had a great appreciation for him. I read a
little bit about him the little bit kind of a
thing in the New York Post yesterday and how well
loved and liked it. He was, Yeah, it is a
sad day, and he was. I mean, that generation of player,
(39:24):
that particular group in that time, a very interesting moment
in our game, and he's a big part of that
with the Mets.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, his father actually was killed in France during World
War Two. His mother was six months pregnant at the
time with Eddie Cranpole, so she raised him as a
single mom. He signed at seventeen, and the Mets immediately
put him on a plane to Los Angeles to join
the club. Imagine this, He's out of high school, seventeen,
(39:52):
joins the Mets in La at Dodger Stadium, and that
night he gets there, Sandy Kofax, no hits New York Mets.
Welcome to the sixty two Mets.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
You got to put yourself in that position of being.
Remember when you were seventeen, did you have the mental
ability or the courage or the wherewithal or whatever it
takes to go all that way be in a major
league game. Get eighty thousand bucks to sign at that time,
which was probably I don't even know close to a
million in today's world. That takes something that I could
(40:25):
never have done. I would not have been able to
do that. I would not have been able to.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
As as a seventeen eighteen year old.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Been put in that position, given that kind of opportunity
and survive, I really don't believe so.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
And Casey's stangel was his manager. His roommate was a
thirty four year old Frank Thomas. I mean, that's the
thing to me, as a teenager, you're throwing it in
a purely adult world that you're really not ready for.
Just amazing. But he did, obviously. He's also with the
Miracle Mets of nineteen sixty nine. Hit a home run
in that World Series in Game three, and he still
(40:56):
holds the Mets records for most pinch hits and most
games played. How about that.
Speaker 4 (41:02):
I did not know that.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
And the other one, Austin, I call it the baseball community,
and why not James Earl Jones and one of the
great iconic actors, especially voices of our time. And of
course I include him in the baseball community because in
terms of baseball speeches, you know, you've got lou Garrick's speech,
of course, but you've also got from Hollywood Terrence Mann
(41:25):
played by James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams, and
it's just iconic. This is a guy who, you know,
a lot of people remember that line. You know, if
you've built it, they will come. But it's the whole
speech that he gave. And what's interesting, Joe, is that
when that movie came out and the New York Times
reviewed it, the reviewer ripped that speech specifically by Terrence
(41:50):
Matt said it was completely out of place. Really, how
about that? So think about that, and I'm sure you
do anyway when you read reviews, read him for amusement purposes.
Own doesn't create a review to have them formulate your
our opinion, no question.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
And as you're saying all that, Kevin Costner did such
a great job in his baseball movies and whether it
was Bill Durham or Field of Dreams, and I was
still at that point, and I wish, I hope I
never lose that sense of awe and wonderment. But to
have those players walk out of the cornfields onto the
field itself in Burk Lancaster's role coming down and how
(42:28):
he picked him up on a highway in an old
beat up Volkswagen bus. I mean, those are the kind
of stuff that really conjure up your childhood and that wonderment.
Because the first time I walked into Conyie vaccinating with
my pop up through those you know, the clown's mouth,
you walk out and there's this green field. That's first
time eyes, that's first time passion, and you'd never want
(42:49):
to lose that feeling, that sense of awe. And so
that movie was really able to recapture that when you
watched it. The whole thing going to Boston, I was
such a weird infinity for Fenway Park and what existed
behind the green Monster. And they actually have that one
scene with the lights blaring into the ballpark but you
can see.
Speaker 4 (43:07):
Past the wall. That's you know, for me, that really
hit home and and and and and left its mark
on me.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
So yes, absolutely an Ima just to give costs her
a bit of another plug. I mean, Bull Durham, I
lived that life. I lived that specifically, and that was
so well done. And and his self talk and you
know what he did on the mound with the Robinson
and h in the dugout and the whole thing that
the scene's starting a fight in a pull hall. All
(43:36):
this stuff was so realistic and well done. You know,
you get caught up and the accelerated version of our
game right now and and and how it's being formulated
and publicized and marketed, et cetera. Go back there, just
go back to feel the dreams and go back to
bulldrm because that really pro right or wrong. That's my
impression of interpretation of how this game should be viewed
(43:59):
and perceived. There's a lot of fun involved in that too. Uh,
there was fun, and the game was really a human
game at that time, and that's always was the draw
and it's always going to be the draw for me,
and I hope that we never lose sight of that.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
I agree one hundred percent. And we're talking about baseball
with a small B, not Major League baseball. Baseball the game.
And I've always thought if you watch Field of Dreams
and you don't get it, and maybe you think it's sappy,
well then you really don't have baseball in your DNA,
because a true baseball fan gets every bit of that movie.
(44:34):
And it's just to me, it's always at home, and
the people who complain about it or find something wrong
with it, they don't really have baseball in their blood.
And that, to me is the ultimate test.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
That mom moon like Graham, moon like Graham on the
side of a road, right, carrying whatever, carrying everything with it.
Speaker 4 (44:50):
That's who we were.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
I mean, carrying your glove, the look in his eye,
the haircut, everything about that kid getting in that vehicle
in the dreams. I mean, that's what we should be
able to conjure or or our children, our kids, whether
they're athletes or not. That's that's the look of wonderment
you want to see in your kid's face regarding what
(45:12):
they want to do with their life. What's what is
their passion? What turns them on? Why do they wake
up in when he what? What do they what do
they want to achieve? And how do they want to
work toward it?
Speaker 4 (45:20):
That's all there.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
And this kid eventually grows up to be a doctor
of course in the movie whatever, But that's with my
kids and my grandkids. If I could see that in
her face, that's that's it. And I don't know that
we necessarily nurture that enough anymore. It's become a little
bit too complicated. And maybe you can you know, they
can't put the Genie back in the bottle. I understand that,
but to me, that's what that represents. When I see
(45:44):
that kid's face getting in the backseat, you know, I
kind of putting his arms up whatever and ducking his
head into the front air front seat area.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
That's it. That's what he was all about.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
That's that's all that was on his on his mind.
That's what he wanted to be and he was not
going to be denied. And I love that.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
And let's not forget James Earl Jones also reads another
generation of baseball fans in the sandlot, which you know,
that's as pure as it gets. Just the name of
the movie. And I missed those days when kids played
baseball without a uniform on. And James Earl Jones, it's
just an iconic actor of stage, screen, you name it.
(46:22):
He will be missed.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
Have to be organized.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Just find a field, right, we will meet there at
eight thirty in the morning, nine o'clock whatever, and you
left there and just a game breaks out. You could
even use stones as bases, like we did up at
Coriol Stadium when Mike barn and I used to play
up there in the up beyond the outfield where the
Little League game might be going on in the stadium itself.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Again.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Again, this I don't want to sound, you know, weirdly older, nostalgic,
but these are the things that we're missing. I mean,
at that point, the kids have to be creative. You
have to be creative. You're you're among each other, there's
no organization, there's no you know, helicopter parenting going on.
You're really there lifting your own devices to survive and
do well. Those are the kind of moments that really teach.
(47:04):
Those are the most teachable moments that you have to
draw on whatever that is within each one of us
that we have, it's drawn upon and it has to
come to the forefront in order to survive or be
good at something. That's the stuff that I think, you
know a lot of our kids miss it. It's too
much with devices and whatever. We get caught on all
the time, and not enough outside just doing with other kids.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
And that's that's part of our issues. That's part of
our problems.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yeah, unorganized play, it's really important. It is you learn
to fend for yourself and you also learn to settle
disputes and you know that, Joe, but it's a big
part of being a kid and playing a game with
other kids. You make your own rules and you sell
your own disputes. I love the power in that.
Speaker 4 (47:46):
Agree.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Well, this was fun going down memory lane back to Salem, Joe,
nineteen eighty two. So I'm not sure if you have
something today to take us home that regards your time
in Salem, but I know that was a magical year
for you, as you mentioned your Salem Angels beating the
Medford A's for the Northwest League, and I'm sure listening
to Mike Rizzo, it's something that you never forget at
(48:07):
that stage of your life and that kind of success.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
I'm going to try to explain this properly because I
think we all you probably experienced it yourself, but I
think we all talking about passion, talking about what you
want to be when you grow up, kind of a thing,
whatever that might be as you as you're going forward
with that, and whether it's a baseball, whether it's being
a broadcaster or a journalist, whether it's being a doctor, whatever,
(48:31):
there's always this trepidation about it. There's always good enough,
there's always these built in fears that you can't even explain,
but they're there.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
I mean, there's something about.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Us humans that we have this, this this fear pocket
the DNA within us that holds us back, constantly holds
us back until you get to the point where you
eventually eventually realize that I got to fight through this,
I got to feel the fear and do it anyway
and not permit this whatever that is, because it's it's
just it's just there that we've got to get beyond
that in order to really achieve and become what we
(49:02):
want to become.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
And it's really important. So again, this was it today.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
A lady by name of Isabella laflesh l A F
L E C h G. I guess she's a writer journalist.
I didn't know until I looked it up, but this
is exactly one hundred percent accurate, and it's remaine what
we're talking about. Your passion is waiting for your courage
to catch up, period.
Speaker 4 (49:24):
And that's it. I mean, for me to become a
major league manager, my courage had to catch up with
my passion.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
For you to become even a minor league player, your
courage has to catch up with your passion. And once
it does, and then you and you just then you're
able to breathe and be yourself, and then you you
demonstrate or give to the world exactly who you are.
There's there's no holding back because this is who I am.
Kind of have to overthinking. I don't have to worry
about saying the wrong thing or making a mistake whatever.
(49:50):
I'm just telling you this is this is who I am.
So your passion is waiting for your courage to catch up,
I think in order to be highly successful.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I love that. It really reminds me of one of
my favorite lines Joe and was when Vince Gully answered
my question how could you be so good for so long?
And he said, the humility to prepare and the confidence
to pull it off.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
You know that really struck me even today talking with
Mike Rizzo. You heard him talk about all the people
that are around him, the Major League staff, the analytics department, everything,
and yet he sat there and said that he also
is confident in knowing what he knows, that he knows
the game of baseball. And I tell people all the
time we all need mentors, you know, growing up and
(50:34):
establishing ourselves as professionals. Well before that, we need opportunity,
and we need encouragement. But there comes a point and
you hit this perfectly, Joe with that quote, where it
has to come from within and you have to have
that inter strength, that interconfidence, so that I love that.
That's great advice at any stage in life.
Speaker 4 (50:52):
It's something that I could speak from a personal experience.
Just briefly.
Speaker 3 (50:56):
When I got the job as the Raised manager, you know,
I had been a backup singer.
Speaker 4 (51:02):
I was never lead singer before. And my agent was.
Speaker 3 (51:04):
Tommy Tanger and along with Allen Ero at the time.
And Tommy came to the introductory press conference in Tampa
Bay and so there's a bunch of people was in
that outfield restaurant whatever, and of course you go to
the press conference. You start up, but you know, talking
about what you want to talk about, and then eventually
ask you questions. But Tommy afterwards said, I've never heard
you speak like that and never heard you say those
(51:25):
things because basically.
Speaker 4 (51:27):
My courage caught up with my passion. That's pretty much
what occurred.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
And then once you're holding your own baby man and
protecting your own family, it's completely different.
Speaker 4 (51:35):
And that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (51:37):
Joe Madden, lead singer. We're going to save that for
another episode.
Speaker 4 (51:41):
You cut it ahead.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
This is fun, Joe. We'll see you next time. I
Love We'll get Joe.
Speaker 4 (51:44):
Thanks Tommy.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Dary, welcome back. It's the latest episode of the
Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of
course Joe Madden and Joe. We got a special guest today.
(00:24):
One of your former players is here. We're going all
the way back, though. When I say former players, to
your first managing job and the first of his forty
three seasons in professional baseball, I'm talking about the nineteen
eighty two Salem Angels of the Northwest League and Mike Rizzo. Mike,
I know you've won World championships with the Diamondbacks in
(00:45):
the front office with the Nationals as President of Baseball
Operations and general manager. But I'm sure your career highlight
is that summer playing for the Salem Angels and Joe Maddenda.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Past didn't we jell was It was a fun season.
It was my indoctrination to professional baseball. I was a
nervous from Chicago and got hooked up with a great
skipper who was young and energetic and a little crazy himself.
And it was a nice ride to the championship in
my first World Series ring. It was fun.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, we had a great time, and that was really
an interesting summer. And I know you probably don't maybe
remember this, but we beat of course, we beat Metford.
The Metford Athletics were like the fifty three and seventeen
or something like that. Going into the playoffs, we were
thirty four and thirty six, two games under five hundred
two different divisions obviously, and we Kirk McCastle and Arbano
(01:41):
Lugo pitched two great games. But one of the things
was Riz. Remember we played there during the season. We
had a bad game, you're playing first base, had a
tough day, and the writer there, whoever the writer was,
the local journalist, really highly criticized us in the newspaper
and I really took an umbradge to that. I was
offended by this and actually threatened the guy afterwards that
(02:01):
I got a call from the league president because he
such skating stuff about my rookie league club. So that's
what I remember. Also, it was a great year, full
of personalities. Like you're talking about, We played great. We
had uh Mark maclamore and Kevin Davis up the middle,
seventeen year old middle infielders. Riz was of course one
of the veteran group. He was this one of the
(02:22):
stage members of the team that kept things loose and irrelevant.
So it was it was really it was one of
my funnest summers as a as a baseball manager, as
a baseball person.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Was that great.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Well, Mike, you mentioned that you thought your skipper was
a little bit crazy. Give us an insight on what
a young Joe Madden was like as a manager.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, he was. He was young. That was the first
thing that struck me. You know, he was. I think
you were like three or four years older than than
some of the players on the team. And you know,
I think you were, you know, you were cutting your
teeth as a as a manager at the time. You
I know, you scouted an area and then managed half
the in the half a club. So it was fun
kind of like growing together. And you know, I was,
(03:02):
you know, I was a clueless kid at the time.
Obviously I was twenty one years old and uh and
you had all the answers and until you don't have them,
And it was it was an interesting It was an
interesting dynamics. See all all these different personalities from all
over the world, all over the country kind of getting
together for one common goal and we were below five hundred.
(03:24):
But I remember we we we got hot at the
right time and we we took we took that into
uh into the playoffs and beat a really you know,
really accomplished Oakland A's minor league team, and UH, I
remember my favorite, my favorite memory is the trip back
and uh but we were on we were on the
bus and uh we were busting it back and we
(03:44):
we had a blast and it was you know, kind
of the first the first taste of of what what
success is in professional baseball. And uh, I'll never forget
the Uh, I'll never forget the euphoria that that we had,
you know, on the field and in a visitors ballpark,
and then and then taking it on a bus and
and you know, driving that long trip home that seemed
(04:07):
like it went in five minutes, It was probably five hours.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
We celebrated that night at the hotel swimming pool, and
then there was a lot of adult beverages consumed and eventually,
like you said, on the road, right back, Kirk mccaskell,
Captain Kirk, he's getting up the bus in Salmon. It's
probably like I don't know, two TV cameras and whatever
that's a little bit concerned. I said, listen, put your
sunglasses on and keep them on as you get out
(04:31):
there and talk to people.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
It was hysterical.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
We had a great time and it was with the
culmination of a really, really fun summer.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Well, Mike, I know you come from a great baseball background,
third generation scout. Of course, your dad was in the
Phil Rizzo, the inaugural class of the Pro Scouts Hall
of Fame. So take me back to when, first of all,
the Angels drafted you out of high school. He's back
in nineteen seventy nine, twenty eighth round pick by the Angels.
What was your thinking then, what was the thought for
(04:59):
you about entering professional baseball?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, Joe and I have another common ally is the
scout who signed both of us as the same scout, Nick,
the late great Nick Kenzick, who was a was an
Angel Mount Rushmore piece, in my opinion, over there with
the with the California Angels. So I drafted out of
high school, wasn't ready to play pro ball obviously, and
went on to college. And then three years later Nick
(05:23):
drafted me again and got an opportunity to play three
great years in the minor leagues. It was some of
the most fun times in my in my life. And uh,
you know, we talk about the grind, and you know
how tough it is to play in the minor leagues.
I loved it. I loved the bus rides. I love
the common the camaraderie with the with the other players,
and uh and uh just uh, you know, just the
(05:46):
idea of playing baseball for a living was was something
that really appealed to me. I loved it, and I
was bit by the baseball bug early in my life,
and I knew I was gonna that was gonna be
my career path. It took a detour when uh, you know,
the league tells you that you don't belong in the
big leagues, and the league told me early in my
career I didn't belonging there. But I still wanted to
(06:07):
have a career in major league baseball, so I took it.
I took a different path, but it was it was
a path that it's been very fruitful for me, and
baseball's giving me everything I have in life.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Mike, let me ask you real quick about that fork
in the road, because you know, Joe and I have
written about this extensively. When that moment comes when you
love a game so much and somebody tells you you're
not good enough to play anymore. You mentioned three years
your third year? Was it with Redwood in nineteen eighty four.
How did you get the word that, you know, Mike Rizzo,
(06:40):
you may have to try something else because playing is
not working out for you. And what was that like?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Well, it was It was shocking to me. You know.
I guess I was a bad self evaluator. But I
remember to call I got from Billy benac Joe. You
remember Billy. Oh, yeah, he gave you a call. He
was the farm director at the time and said, hey, Riz.
He said, we're gonna let you go, and said all
the right things and was very kind about it, was
very complimentary about it as he as he released me,
(07:08):
and I thought he was I thought they were making
a mistake, you know. I told him, I said, you know,
you know, I'm going to make it to the big
leagues and I'm going to stick it to you every
time we get there, and blah blah blah blah blah.
And then soon after after, I you know, after I
calmed down a little bit, my dad grabbed me, who
was you know, a nine year minor league player in
his day, and then in a long time scout and
(07:29):
baseball guy kind of sat me down and really gave
me the real information about what it takes to get
to the big leagues and that you know, he didn't
feel that I had the skills to do it, but
you can make a great living in this thing. I've
got a lot to offer to the game. And you know,
you could be a manager or a front office person,
you know, if you want to be. And and that
(07:51):
was that was my next decision because I was going
to hook on with another team. Another team offered me
a contract to play in the minor leagues, in the
low low A ball level, and he told me, said, hey,
you could kick around this thing for years and you know,
be a baseball bump like I was nine years in
and it couldn't you know, you don't provide for your
family because you don't make any money obviously in the
minor leagues, or you could take another route. And you know,
(08:12):
with that conversation, I decided that it was time to
stay in the game. But I finished my education at
University of Illinois, which was a promise I made to
my mom. When I signed, and very fortunate that while
I was at University Illinois, the scouting director who signed
me at the time, Larry Hines, became the general manager
(08:35):
of the White Sox and remembered me through Nick Hamsick
and offered me a scouting job with the White Sox,
which was the start of my post playing career.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
That is so much good stuff right there for me.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
I mean, like a lot of he's mentioning people, Tommy
and I've spoken about from Larry.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
To your pop to Nikki.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
The thing that I love and the reason why I
think you've been so successful is because you got involved
in scouting so soon, so early in your career. That's
what people don't quite understand anymore. And I don't even know,
Michael to the extent that how many scouts teams have
on the road, because when we came up, it was
the lifeblood of the organization, there's no question. And the
scouts you're talking about are iconic and those are the
(09:14):
guys that taught me. I mean, I had some wonderful
and obviously the reason why I was able to do
it I did as a coach and the manager was
because of all the guys on the field. But the
scouts man got me first and right from Nicki. With
Nicki Kamsick, you used to stop in the Quad City,
take you out for beer, try to pump you up
a little bit. Love nick from the point he signed
me at the Broadview Hotel and which would talk Kansas
(09:35):
back in seventy five. But you learn so much from
these guys, and if you learn how to scout, you
really understand the game well, the ability to really contribute
just by your brain and your ability to see things
and transmit them to others.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
And this is the reason why groups are successful. To me,
when it comes.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Down analytics, the biggest or the most important part of
analytics to me is acquisitional off season stuff. That's when
that's when I really as if I were in that position,
would really utilize the numbers and analytics to really compare
and contrast different players and make it augment my scouting department,
not just replace it.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
But that's just getting to.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
The point is that I believe that scouting not spoken
about enough. The guys that are really true icons in
the game not spoken about enough. That is the reason
why the game was great, and they gave me my
opportunity and those are the guys that really taught.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Me, no question. And I think the teams that do
it best now are a good blend and a good balance.
They marry the analytics with the human element, and I
think that those are the teams that are most successful.
I think it's still a vital part of our process here.
You know, we have people see players and utilize all
(10:48):
the data and all the video that we can to
supplement that. But I'll tell you one thing. I was
just talking about this with ownership the other day. It
was that you know you're at the trade deadline, and
you know things are coming fast at you. And when
you have a scouts report from scout that you trust,
a Casey mckeeon and Dan Jennings, Steve Varniery, one of
(11:08):
these one of these great guys that know the game,
Chris Klein, who you and I love and know for forever.
When when those guys have a report on you and
they stamp a guy that they like that you, it
gives me a great assurance that I feel comfortable taking
this player in a trade. But when you're going just
on video or just on on analytical data and numbers,
(11:32):
it gives me a trepidation to to really pull the trigger.
But when I get the blend of both and we
marry both of them and both of them are saying
kind of the same thing, those are the ones that
I say, well, that's the trade I want to make.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
That's interesting, Mike, because I was going to ask you,
and hopefully you have some background on this, the trade
involving the San Diego Padres and Juan Soto in August second,
twenty twenty two. It's very rare for me in my
memory when I when I see a team that needs
to trade an impact player for contractual reasons or whatever.
Very rare the teams do well. It's hard to get
(12:06):
equal value when you've got anything close to equal value
when you've got a talent like a Wan Soto. But
I use your trade there with San Diego as an
example of identifying the right players, and that is putting
the Nationals back on track here to contention, a lot
quicker than otherwise would have happened. Just to refresh people's mind,
you traded Mon Soto and Josh Bell for Robert Hassel
(12:26):
the Third, Hardlein, Susana cj Abrams, Mackenzie Gore, Luke Voight,
and James Wood Mike, give us an idea of the
process that went into that trade. I know it wasn't
something that was done you know, off the back of
the envelope in the last hour you mentioned this, Goalt,
tell me the information you were looking for? What sold
you on those particular players.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Well, you know, we had an iconic player, like you
said that that had two and a half years of
control for a team and you know which is you know,
translates to me as three playoff runs for the team
that acquires them. The great part of the trade which
made it possible for us to acquire the tie of
talent that we did, was we didn't have to trade
and that was probably the most important levers that that
(13:08):
I had, and it was it was it was a
true statement that we were going to make this trade
UH that made sense for us, or we were going
to keep one Soto And so I think that that
really aided me and UH and being aggressive with with
a handful of teams that really at the end of
the day we were there were there was really only three,
three or four teams at the end of the day
(13:30):
that were that had the players that had the the
incentive that were aggressive enough to to really talk about
this trade and and to you know, get into the
weeds with who you're going to take and that type
of thing. And uh, and you know it ended up
being you know, San Diego was the team that was
most aggressive. I gave ownership and a j Preller credit.
(13:50):
They went after it and and and acquired a lot
of good talent that made it possible to get one Soto.
And you know, at the end of the day, we
leaned hard on our scouts, our analytical people. We put
together a nice blueprint and a nice plan to acquire
the players that we had to acquire to make the trade.
And at the end of the day, uh, when uh,
(14:12):
when we added Josh Bell to the deal, and and
uh Susannah was thrown into the deal because of that,
then then uh, we both sides felt comfortable that they
were acquiring the people that they needed to acquire to
get this deal done.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
That's pretty cool, especially a guy like James Wood Mike,
when you when you have someone who's that young and
obviously great physical ability, but I mean, we see him
in the big league level now we realize there's a
lot more in the tank there. He hasn't even filled
out yet. What jumped out to you your scouts at
that time, and was he someone you had to have
in the deal?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah? There was, there was you know five the four
players that we we that we acquired, Gore, Abrams, Hassle
and would they were must must have in the in
the one soda portion of it. And then when uh,
when we we had discovered we had just discovered you know,
luck or chance or hard work or whatever that Susannah
(15:09):
was pitching that he was just a rookie ball guy
in the Arizona Rookie League. And we happened to have
a scout down there because we were you know, we
had we had really blanketed that the Padres organization and
we saw this young kid, I think at the time
it was probably seventeen or eighteen year old kid and
he was in the backfield below in about one hundred,
one hundred and two miles an hour. Got a call
(15:30):
from the scout as we were negotiating this this this
deal and said, you know, this is a this is
a must have throw in type of guy at the
end there and went to aj about it, and obviously
that they became too expensive for him. To put in
a guy like Susannah. So we added Josh Bell to
the deal, and he had a Susannah and then and
then we got a deal. But Woodsy is a he's
(15:54):
a mega talent that that is just scratching the surface.
He's he's got the he's got the offensive skill that
I think is is most important to a young hitter
is that he has command of the strike zone. He
knows the strike zone, he rarely goes outside of it,
and he makes makes good heart contact with the ball
(16:15):
in the zone. You know, he's a big exit velocity guy,
and you know, he hits the ball hard, and he's
got great leverage with his swing, and he goes first
to third and he goes home to third. Joe, he
reminds me of the strikes that Devon White had when
he was back with us. This guy just lopes up
out there. He doesn't look like he's he's gaining ground,
(16:36):
but he is. He's chewing up turf and he's an
elite runner. Now we throw him in left field. He's
never never really played left field before and h and
he's learning the position at the big league level along
with you know, how to hit and how to survive
in the big leagues.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
My observation just listening to you talk about this year,
you just you said it earlier, your process including both
old school and new school methods, and you're the way
you're going blending back back and forth regarding your description
of him, indicates that you truly know what you believe
in what you know because you're talking about the first,
the third, the strides, the loping strides of Devon White,
(17:13):
but then you're also mentioning the exit velocity. That's to me,
that's the true essence of what needs to be done
right now. Just can't be one sided. And that's that's
why I appreciate it. Your your method from the moment
you went on uh with the Diamondbacks. I remember talking
to you out in Arizona one time, we just saw
each other, maybe in a hallway. I was so proud
and happy for you. And then eventually get this job,
(17:34):
you and Davut win the World Series. But that's the
thing that I think is not it's talked about often,
but not necessarily happening where there's a blend going on,
and I think that's that's the true way to get
this thing properly done and I respect how you got there,
and I respect, uh, you know, the path that you've taken,
because again, when you talk about things like this, you're
not just saying it to say it.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
You've actually lived these different things.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
You've lived bus rides, you've lived being with your daddy
and Nicky Camsick, and then again you you've accumulated and
acquired a really good analytical team there in Washington, and
then you blended together. So I like your description because
it does just like you had spoken about, it does
blend together both old and new school tenants, which I
believe is the right way to do this right.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Well, I think I think any good leader, Joe tom
is you know, is I think that you have to
know yourself and know your strengths and weaknesses. And I
know what my strengths are. You know, I'm comfortable and confident.
I know baseball, I know players. But you know, when
I'm calling my teeth at this job is I'm almost
I'm always a GM now for eighteen years. I've been
(18:41):
with the team since since you know, day one, and
I need to surround myself with guys not like me,
that are that had skill sets that I don't have.
So so we you know, we put together an analytical team.
We've we've got some of the smartest, sharpest men and
women in the game and everywhere from M I. T
(19:02):
To Harvard and Universe, Maryland and everywhere in between. And
I think that, uh that you know, what what we
do here is to work for me. Even even if
you're an analytical genius, you have to have respect for
the game of baseball and for the people out out
in the field. And uh, because I always say player development,
guys in the minor leagues and scouts, scouts driving the
(19:23):
highways and that type of stuff. You know, they're they're
the unsung heroes. They don't get paid enough. They don't
they don't get enough accolades and that type of thing.
And without them, we are nothing. And uh there you
can't feel a championship team without them. That's what I
said on the podium when I was lifting the trophy.
This is for all the you know, the coaches, uh,
pounding fungos to a to a guy in a ball
and for all the scouts, uh, you know, driving through Kansas,
(19:46):
you know, to you know, three hundred miles to get
to the next game. Without you guys, that we don't.
You know, we don't have the Rendons in the Strasbourgs
and the Sures of the world because there's nobody there
to see them and and nobody there to scout them
and sign them. And uh and it's uh, it's something
that we've incorporated with our club. There's there's a mutual
respect for numbers and and for and for people and
(20:08):
uh and we can't forget this is a people's game
and uh. And the players are what it's all about.
And the players make us win and lose. And you know,
we can coach as much as we want, we can
manage as much as we want, and GM as much
as you want. Without the players, we have nothing. So
uh and without the scouts and the player development guys,
it's it's hard to develop these guys into into championship
(20:32):
caliber people.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Leadership being about empowerment, leadership not being about control.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
And that's what you're describing to me right there.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
I think too, in today's world, the word leader or
leadership has been confused with control.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
And I like that.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I mean, everything you're describing it doesn't surprise me whatsoever
based on your background, but I think that's that's been
been confused more lately, where leadership needs to be about
empowering the group. If you hire somebody to do a job,
let them do their job and not try to control
what they do and their outputs. So again, I mean,
that doesn't surprise me because of like I said, where
you come from. But I do appreciate that explanation because
(21:06):
I can't agree with you more.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Joe, I'm sure you realize pretty quickly back in eighty two,
what a competitive guy Mike Rizzo is. I have to
ask him, because this is the only guy I know
who's been ejected from a Major League baseball game from
his suite in the upper deck. We will ask him
about that right after this short break. We are speaking
(21:40):
with Mike Rizzo, president of Baseball Operations and general manager
of the Washington Nationals, And as I mentioned, the only
man I know is ejected from a baseball game for
arguing with an umpire from his spot in his suite.
Of course, this is twenty twenty, nobody's in the stands,
and the umpire is, of course, Joe West. So Mike,
you got to tell me the story behind this one,
(22:02):
because I can't quite think else quite like it.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Well, you know, you know, Joe's in that kund of
umpire and think umpired more games than anybody in the
in the history of baseball. And it was it was
that weird twenty twenty season which I hated with a passion.
Just nobody into ballpark. It was like it was like
it was like, you know, big time instructional league games,
because you could hear the crack of the bath, the
(22:28):
echoes and the dugouts, you know, people's you know, people
you know, saying stuff. So I was in the third
deck of in Atlanta. I had to be eight hundred
one thousand feet away from home plate, and you know,
I'm in a suite by myself. I've got the TV,
you know, right above me, so I know that I
know where the strike zone is. And things was up
(22:48):
and it was in it was like the fourth inning
or something of a midweek game or something like that.
It wasn't any kind of big situation. And I think
Hunter Wendlstart was up in the plate and he called
a pitch a strike, and it was it was way
way outside his own and I've got, like I said,
and I've got the strikes on right here. So I
yelled from one thousand feet away. You know, the word brutal,
(23:09):
probably very loud. And all of a sudden, they're pointing,
they're pointing up somewhere up around me, and uh and
they they said that, they said I was I was
ejected from the from the game or from the park.
Of course I wouldn't leave. So we had a little
delay there and they wanted me to leave the park.
I refused to leave, so the game went on being
(23:31):
five minutes later and I stayed there. So I don't
know what the what the all the hubbub was about,
but it was. It was It was interesting that that
I got ejected from a game, but it wasn't It
wasn't my first May it probably won't be my last.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Just quickly too. And Riza, he and I talk about
this all the time.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
At first season with the Salem Angels at Chameka, the
field he started to fight at home played against the
ben Phillies. That was outstanding. It ended up everybody was
pressed against the backstop. I don't even remember how long
it went on play at the plate. I can remember
exactly how it unfolded. The Beast might have been there,
Doug Rivell might have been there to support you other
Chicago guy.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
We were We were just full of Chicago guys because.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Of Nick and his pop. It was outstanding. These guys
are not afraid to fight. That this really great brawl,
a real one behind home plate. And I remember this
guy by named adam Ac I think playing for the Phillies.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
It was like pressed up against the backstop. It was
so cool. And those are the kind of moments that
really galvanized the team. I really believe that. I'll argue
that with anybody, but I really appreciate it. And you're
talking about the fighting spirit of Michael. It says it
was obvious even back.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Then because he did not back off, and here both
benches empty.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
It was outstanding.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I would like to abridge that this school a little bit.
And you keep saying I start. You keep saying I
started the fight. I finished the fight. They started. It
was starting at the collision at home plate.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
And who wasn't the collision.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I think it was Govea, I'm not positive by I
think it might have been David who ran ran over
to catcher legal play and then and then as he
was walking to the dugout, the catcher was going going
to get him from behind and I was on deck
and I interceded.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
That's well done.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Big enough to start a prite fight? Was tall skinny
guy from what north Ridge.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Cal State? Nor exactly exactly. I don't think.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I mean, he was a tall, skinny first baseman. I
don't think he was tough enough to start that.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Thank god you, Hey, Mike, one of your teammates that
we we bring up his name once in a while,
Jay Lewis. Do you ever know what happened to Jay Lewis?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Jay Lewis, Yeah, I do not know what happened to him,
but he was trying. He was a pretty player though
he was He was a pretty player.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
That was one of what was our scouts name in
the Louisiana guy was yeah Texas Oklahoma, Texas Oklahoma, I
think was from j Bird was from Oklahoma. Lou Snip
Snippers signed him. It was one of the Snips guys.
And he had a bunch of those twos from the
junior colleges from Oklahoma, Northern Texas, Louisiana, et cetera. Nice
(26:11):
bodies and somewhat somewhat talented, but never never really quite
did it.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Hey, Mike, I want to ask you about this year,
you and your wife Jody, you established the Rizzo Family Foundation,
and a big part of that is the RIZK Kids Initiative,
which strives for educational equity for underserved children and families,
brands and scholarships. Tell me about where this idea came from, Mike, Well.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
You know, we you know, like like I said earlier,
you know, I've been here in Washington, d C. Twenty years.
So I've made this my home. And as time goes on,
Mom passed, Dad. Dad passed right after the World Series.
The last game you ever saw Joe was Game seven
the World Series. Uh, so he got a happy man.
H and then and then, uh two years ago, my
sister passed away at ALS. So you know, as as
(26:57):
we're as Jody and I are sitting there, we're thinking
that you know, we've got you know, this game has
been right to me, and I've made a lot of
money doing doing what I'm doing, and you know it's
time to give something back and to leave a legacy
when I'm when I'm not the GM anymore of the nationals. Uh.
And we felt, what's what's a better way to do
it than put all our attention into the underprivileged young
(27:21):
people of Washington, d C. So we've really focused on
the DC area and on young people. We've we've offered
several college scholarships in my sister's name. Under her we
offer to corporations that do that, we give them a
contribution to to do great things in the in the
(27:43):
DC area, and just giving back to people because we've
had such a wonderful life here and and they've treated
us in this town so great. You know, I live
I lived just until recently, I lived, you know, downtown
by the ballpark for fifteen years and you know, through
the good times, do the rebuilds, the bad times and
(28:05):
all that stuff, the championship years and the lean years.
This neighborhood and this district has embraced me and taken
me in and have been good to me. And I
felt that it was at a great idea to honor
my mother and father and my sister and create riz
kids and do it. I do a small a small
(28:27):
piece that I could do to empower kids and to
make their lives a little bit better.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
That's outstanding, And Joe, I couldn't help but think about
your own situation. Of course, your dad wasn't around for
game seven of the World Series in twenty sixteen or
two thousand and two. But I'm sure with the way
you brought his hat into the dugout with you definitely
on your mind. You guys have a lot in common,
it seems we do.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I mean often said when I was with the Cubbies
that Hazelton is a microcosm of Chicago. When you're in Chicago,
it's like it's a city of neighborhoods. You don't feel
like you're in a big city necessary till you get downtown.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
It's this sprawling.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Group of neighborhoods that's just attached to one another. And
my smaller town is the same way. And you have
all the different ethnicities throughout the city, and there's a
toughness about the people, but there's also a kindness about
the people, and there's a way that we support one another,
whether it's here or bear in Chicago. I've always felt,
I mentioned it earlier, like the strong affinity with the
Chicago guys. Whenever I got to Chicago guys on any level,
(29:30):
I've always enjoyed them. A great sense of humor, played hard,
didn't need to be stroked all the time. You could
be straight up with them. They're not going to fold.
These are the kind of things that I think is
indigenous to that particular area. I mean, you're talking about,
you know, parents and father growing up. Same respect for
my dad. That Mike hat for his my backpack is
(29:50):
in the other room right now. My dad's hat is
still in that backpack. So I think when you have
that kind of foundation structure that was built by your parents,
it's going to stay with you. It's not going anywhere,
and you're going to be in some way, you know,
chip off the old block, kind of a piece, a
remnant of that other person. That is a good thing
(30:11):
because you really want to be like your pop. My
dad had a great work work ethic, so did Michaels,
and we were just very fortunate of those kind of parents.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Well said, and Mike, we got one more job for
you before we let you go. We like to play
a game with our guests here. It's called a reading
from the Book of Joe. We like to think that
you could turn to any page in our book, the
Book of Joe, and find something interesting, funny, touching, you
name it. So we ask our guests to pick any
(30:39):
number between one and three hundred and sixty nine, and
we will turn to that page and find out what's
on that. So it's your turn at bat, Mike Rizzo,
you pick a number between one and three sixty nine.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Let's pick fourteen.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And now I've got to ask you why that number
came to your mind? Why you picked it?
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Well, well, it's kind it's kind of been a lucky
number of mine, and I'm just figuring it book. I
want to I want to hear early early Madden in
the beginning.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Okay, well.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I knew Early Madden.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
I know that's what he did.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
He does, I confess, Well, how appropriate is this? Madden
has been shaped by the lessons and wisdom of great
leaders throughout his life, especially in his formative years. It
began with his parents. I mean, we can't make this
stuff up.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Joe right exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
This was along with their father, Carmen Madden, Joseph Anthony Madden,
and his four brothers operated see Madden and Sons Plumbing
and Heating in Hazleton, Pennsylvania, known throughout the blue collar
cold town as Joe the Plumber. Madden's father kept pipes
and furnaces and working conditions there for sixty years. Always
with a smile on his face and the phillies between
(31:56):
his teeth. Mad's mother, Albina, known to everyone as Beanie,
worked into her eighties at Hazelton's third base Lunch in It,
which lived up to its name as the closest thing
to home from them, he learned the value of it
honest day's work, and how to meet challenges with a smile.
So there you go, Mike Rizzo. You went straight to
the heart of who Joe Madden.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Is beautiful early mad and I love it.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
That's incredible, though this stuff happens with this all the time,
and you picked up a page number fourteen. We just
got done talking about it. I come up with a
quote of the day at the conclusion of all of this,
and I might and Tommy never talked me what the
subject matter is going to be, what the questions are
going to be, like whatever, And I just react to
this show and so almost always it comes it matches
(32:43):
up that.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
That's incredible, well done.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, it's been so much fun, Mike. Before we let
you go. For our Nationals fans listening out there, they're
encouraged by what they're saying here. You seem like you're
on the right track. Give me a sense of where
Washington is going forward from here.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
No, I think we could see the light at the
end of the tunnel. I mean, they've been very patient
in the rebuild, you know, since you know, we started
this thing in twenty one, and you know, we've last
place finishes and there's no fun with that. It's tough
to be a fan with that. But I think they
trust the process and we've done it in the past.
We have a blueprint to get back to the championship
level of play. So we've got a lot of good
(33:22):
young players. We're in position to kind of take next
steps and go from go from rebuilding to potential to
compete and hopefully once we get to the competing mode
that you know, we'll have another ten year run like
we had you know, from you know, from twelve to
(33:43):
to through the World Series Championship in nineteen and where
we were, you know, one of the best teams in
baseball for about you know, eight to ten years in
a row. So that's that's our goal. This game is
Joe tells me this all the time. This game is hard.
It's hard to win games in the big leagues, and
winning a big League game is hard and should be celebrated,
(34:05):
and and we do. It's humbling and you know, just
when you think you're on the right track, we we've been.
You know, we've been playing good baseball with a really
young team. I think we have six, six or seven
rookies in the starting lineup. On any given day, you know,
you run into an Atlanta Braves team like we did
last night, and they humble you. And the good thing
about this game is it does humble you and does
make you make you stronger if you're if you're cut
(34:26):
from the right cloth. So I think we we are
we are cut from the right cloth. Davy Martinez has
got the team playing really, really hard. We play with
our hair on fire. Oftentimes it's it's not pretty, but
they're learning. But it's uh. I think I think people
here see it. We're going in the right direction and uh.
And our plan is to is to compete for for
(34:48):
many years after this and with the support of the
fans and the ownership and and the group, I think
we're on the on the doorstep of something going on
another special run like we did in the past.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Before you go to just make sure you tell Kkhillo
me please, and also David the rest of the coaching staff.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Chris Kleine brought him up earlier.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
I signed KK ad a Grand Canyon College at that time,
and I really thought, I really thought KK was gonna
be a big league player. Six three sixty four, ran well, hit, line, drive, hitter,
played shortstop, could do other things. KK was always one
of my favorite players. So give him my best please.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
He's been with me till this day since nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Yeah, that's awesome, love it.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
That's awesome. This has been so much fun. Mike really
appreciated all the best to you and the Washington Nationals.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Thanks guys, thanks to appreciate it. And Joe always a pleasure.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Same.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Heybody be well, well, there's still more on the Book
of Joe podcast and Joe teas to his Court of
the day. We'll have that and more when we get
back right after this. Welcome back to the Book of
(36:01):
Joe podcast. Joe had to be really fun for you
to get down memory lane a little bit there with
Mike Rizzo his first year in pro ball, your first
year in pro ball, and the Roads meet in Salem,
Oregon about it.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, listen, always very daring to my heart and him
and that an entire group, and again we just talked
about it. Something about him and that group. For the
Chicago guys I've always really enjoyed. Could see when he speaks,
very straightforward, very passionate about what he does. Great background.
He talked about his dad, Phil and Nicky Cam's like
(36:36):
legendary scout in the Midwest, and really fortunate that Nicky
was my signing.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
Scout as well as his.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
The success he's had with the d Backs and now
with the Nationals, I could not be happier for him.
I think it's great, and like he said, he's kept
the Chris Klein of all people. Kk's with him still
and of course David Martinez, my former bench coach, Hickey
my pitching coach. So yeah, you got a root for them.
I root for them all the time. Very happy for
his success. But this is this is a street fighting
(37:04):
kind of a guy, and like I said, you could
you could almost see it in his face and hear
it in his voice, so it's not going to go away.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
I like the approach.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
I like the blend of the fact that he talked
about blending the newer methods absolutely with the older and
when he speaks, he speaks like an old school scout,
which I really appreciate.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, he'll let you know how he feels too. I
mentioned he got thrown out by Joe West. He talked
about that. He also once called Cole Hamil's gutless because
he hit Bryce Harper with a pitchman. I think Bryce
was a rookie and he got fined by Major League
Baseball for speaking his mind and calling Cole Hamill's gutless.
So you got to love that about him.
Speaker 4 (37:38):
I do.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
And that's that's the whole thing. I mean, tell me
what you think, not what you've heard. That's one of
my lines. And Michael's always going to tell you what
he thinks. He's never about what he's heard. I love
those guys that get out there in front and and
again are they're just he could say those things comfortably because.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
That's how he grew up. This is who he is.
This is his fabric.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
It's not like he's not reading books and trying to
become somebody that he's not.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
He's just he is an open book.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
This is who he is viscerally and again, whenever you
work in this industry of baseball, one of the things
that I've always mentioned about my coaching staffs. The one
character trait I love about them is that they're fearless.
Their fearlessness about them that they're going to have tough conversations,
They're going to say what they think, They're not going
to back down, be open minded, but nevertheless still.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
Know what you think. And he's a perfect example of that.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
On a sadder note, Joe, we lost a couple of
guys in the baseball community this week. Ed Cranpool was
one of those eighteen seasons with the New York Mets.
Remember he was signed out of James Monroe High School
in the Bronx a bonus baby in nineteen sixty two
by the New York Mets. He got an eighty thousand
dollars bonus, a lot of money back in the day,
(38:52):
and you probably would applaud what he did with the money, Joe.
He bought a white Thunderbird and he bought a home
in white planes for his mom.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
How could you not be a steady Eddy crane Pool fan.
Never got to meet him, obviously, but growing up right did.
I had a great appreciation for him. I read a
little bit about him the little bit kind of a
thing in the New York Post yesterday and how well
loved and liked it. He was, Yeah, it is a
sad day, and he was. I mean, that generation of player,
(39:24):
that particular group in that time, a very interesting moment
in our game, and he's a big part of that
with the Mets.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, his father actually was killed in France during World
War Two. His mother was six months pregnant at the
time with Eddie Cranpole, so she raised him as a
single mom. He signed at seventeen, and the Mets immediately
put him on a plane to Los Angeles to join
the club. Imagine this, He's out of high school, seventeen,
(39:52):
joins the Mets in La at Dodger Stadium, and that
night he gets there, Sandy Kofax, no hits New York Mets.
Welcome to the sixty two Mets.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
You got to put yourself in that position of being.
Remember when you were seventeen, did you have the mental
ability or the courage or the wherewithal or whatever it
takes to go all that way be in a major
league game. Get eighty thousand bucks to sign at that time,
which was probably I don't even know close to a
million in today's world. That takes something that I could
(40:25):
never have done. I would not have been able to
do that. I would not have been able to.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
As as a seventeen eighteen year old.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Been put in that position, given that kind of opportunity
and survive, I really don't believe so.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
And Casey's stangel was his manager. His roommate was a
thirty four year old Frank Thomas. I mean, that's the
thing to me, as a teenager, you're throwing it in
a purely adult world that you're really not ready for.
Just amazing. But he did, obviously. He's also with the
Miracle Mets of nineteen sixty nine. Hit a home run
in that World Series in Game three, and he still
(40:56):
holds the Mets records for most pinch hits and most
games played. How about that.
Speaker 4 (41:02):
I did not know that.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
And the other one, Austin, I call it the baseball community,
and why not James Earl Jones and one of the
great iconic actors, especially voices of our time. And of
course I include him in the baseball community because in
terms of baseball speeches, you know, you've got lou Garrick's speech,
of course, but you've also got from Hollywood Terrence Mann
(41:25):
played by James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams, and
it's just iconic. This is a guy who, you know,
a lot of people remember that line. You know, if
you've built it, they will come. But it's the whole
speech that he gave. And what's interesting, Joe, is that
when that movie came out and the New York Times
reviewed it, the reviewer ripped that speech specifically by Terrence
(41:50):
Matt said it was completely out of place. Really, how
about that? So think about that, and I'm sure you
do anyway when you read reviews, read him for amusement purposes.
Own doesn't create a review to have them formulate your
our opinion, no question.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
And as you're saying all that, Kevin Costner did such
a great job in his baseball movies and whether it
was Bill Durham or Field of Dreams, and I was
still at that point, and I wish, I hope I
never lose that sense of awe and wonderment. But to
have those players walk out of the cornfields onto the
field itself in Burk Lancaster's role coming down and how
(42:28):
he picked him up on a highway in an old
beat up Volkswagen bus. I mean, those are the kind
of stuff that really conjure up your childhood and that wonderment.
Because the first time I walked into Conyie vaccinating with
my pop up through those you know, the clown's mouth,
you walk out and there's this green field. That's first
time eyes, that's first time passion, and you'd never want
(42:49):
to lose that feeling, that sense of awe. And so
that movie was really able to recapture that when you
watched it. The whole thing going to Boston, I was
such a weird infinity for Fenway Park and what existed
behind the green Monster. And they actually have that one
scene with the lights blaring into the ballpark but you
can see.
Speaker 4 (43:07):
Past the wall. That's you know, for me, that really
hit home and and and and and left its mark
on me.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
So yes, absolutely an Ima just to give costs her
a bit of another plug. I mean, Bull Durham, I
lived that life. I lived that specifically, and that was
so well done. And and his self talk and you
know what he did on the mound with the Robinson
and h in the dugout and the whole thing that
the scene's starting a fight in a pull hall. All
(43:36):
this stuff was so realistic and well done. You know,
you get caught up and the accelerated version of our
game right now and and and how it's being formulated
and publicized and marketed, et cetera. Go back there, just
go back to feel the dreams and go back to
bulldrm because that really pro right or wrong. That's my
impression of interpretation of how this game should be viewed
(43:59):
and perceived. There's a lot of fun involved in that too. Uh,
there was fun, and the game was really a human
game at that time, and that's always was the draw
and it's always going to be the draw for me,
and I hope that we never lose sight of that.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
I agree one hundred percent. And we're talking about baseball
with a small B, not Major League baseball. Baseball the game.
And I've always thought if you watch Field of Dreams
and you don't get it, and maybe you think it's sappy,
well then you really don't have baseball in your DNA,
because a true baseball fan gets every bit of that movie.
(44:34):
And it's just to me, it's always at home, and
the people who complain about it or find something wrong
with it, they don't really have baseball in their blood.
And that, to me is the ultimate test.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
That mom moon like Graham, moon like Graham on the
side of a road, right, carrying whatever, carrying everything with it.
Speaker 4 (44:50):
That's who we were.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
I mean, carrying your glove, the look in his eye,
the haircut, everything about that kid getting in that vehicle
in the dreams. I mean, that's what we should be
able to conjure or or our children, our kids, whether
they're athletes or not. That's that's the look of wonderment
you want to see in your kid's face regarding what
(45:12):
they want to do with their life. What's what is
their passion? What turns them on? Why do they wake
up in when he what? What do they what do
they want to achieve? And how do they want to
work toward it?
Speaker 4 (45:20):
That's all there.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
And this kid eventually grows up to be a doctor
of course in the movie whatever, But that's with my
kids and my grandkids. If I could see that in
her face, that's that's it. And I don't know that
we necessarily nurture that enough anymore. It's become a little
bit too complicated. And maybe you can you know, they
can't put the Genie back in the bottle. I understand that,
but to me, that's what that represents. When I see
(45:44):
that kid's face getting in the backseat, you know, I
kind of putting his arms up whatever and ducking his
head into the front air front seat area.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
That's it. That's what he was all about.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
That's that's all that was on his on his mind.
That's what he wanted to be and he was not
going to be denied. And I love that.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
And let's not forget James Earl Jones also reads another
generation of baseball fans in the sandlot, which you know,
that's as pure as it gets. Just the name of
the movie. And I missed those days when kids played
baseball without a uniform on. And James Earl Jones, it's
just an iconic actor of stage, screen, you name it.
(46:22):
He will be missed.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
Have to be organized.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Just find a field, right, we will meet there at
eight thirty in the morning, nine o'clock whatever, and you
left there and just a game breaks out. You could
even use stones as bases, like we did up at
Coriol Stadium when Mike barn and I used to play
up there in the up beyond the outfield where the
Little League game might be going on in the stadium itself.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Again.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Again, this I don't want to sound, you know, weirdly older, nostalgic,
but these are the things that we're missing. I mean,
at that point, the kids have to be creative. You
have to be creative. You're you're among each other, there's
no organization, there's no you know, helicopter parenting going on.
You're really there lifting your own devices to survive and
do well. Those are the kind of moments that really teach.
(47:04):
Those are the most teachable moments that you have to
draw on whatever that is within each one of us
that we have, it's drawn upon and it has to
come to the forefront in order to survive or be
good at something. That's the stuff that I think, you
know a lot of our kids miss it. It's too
much with devices and whatever. We get caught on all
the time, and not enough outside just doing with other kids.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
And that's that's part of our issues. That's part of
our problems.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yeah, unorganized play, it's really important. It is you learn
to fend for yourself and you also learn to settle
disputes and you know that, Joe, but it's a big
part of being a kid and playing a game with
other kids. You make your own rules and you sell
your own disputes. I love the power in that.
Speaker 4 (47:46):
Agree.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Well, this was fun going down memory lane back to Salem, Joe,
nineteen eighty two. So I'm not sure if you have
something today to take us home that regards your time
in Salem, but I know that was a magical year
for you, as you mentioned your Salem Angels beating the
Medford A's for the Northwest League, and I'm sure listening
to Mike Rizzo, it's something that you never forget at
(48:07):
that stage of your life and that kind of success.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
I'm going to try to explain this properly because I
think we all you probably experienced it yourself, but I
think we all talking about passion, talking about what you
want to be when you grow up, kind of a thing,
whatever that might be as you as you're going forward
with that, and whether it's a baseball, whether it's being
a broadcaster or a journalist, whether it's being a doctor, whatever,
(48:31):
there's always this trepidation about it. There's always good enough,
there's always these built in fears that you can't even explain,
but they're there.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
I mean, there's something about.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Us humans that we have this, this this fear pocket
the DNA within us that holds us back, constantly holds
us back until you get to the point where you
eventually eventually realize that I got to fight through this,
I got to feel the fear and do it anyway
and not permit this whatever that is, because it's it's
just it's just there that we've got to get beyond
that in order to really achieve and become what we
(49:02):
want to become.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
And it's really important. So again, this was it today.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
A lady by name of Isabella laflesh l A F
L E C h G. I guess she's a writer journalist.
I didn't know until I looked it up, but this
is exactly one hundred percent accurate, and it's remaine what
we're talking about. Your passion is waiting for your courage
to catch up, period.
Speaker 4 (49:24):
And that's it. I mean, for me to become a
major league manager, my courage had to catch up with
my passion.
Speaker 3 (49:29):
For you to become even a minor league player, your
courage has to catch up with your passion. And once
it does, and then you and you just then you're
able to breathe and be yourself, and then you you
demonstrate or give to the world exactly who you are.
There's there's no holding back because this is who I am.
Kind of have to overthinking. I don't have to worry
about saying the wrong thing or making a mistake whatever.
(49:50):
I'm just telling you this is this is who I am.
So your passion is waiting for your courage to catch up,
I think in order to be highly successful.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I love that. It really reminds me of one of
my favorite lines Joe and was when Vince Gully answered
my question how could you be so good for so long?
And he said, the humility to prepare and the confidence
to pull it off.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
You know that really struck me even today talking with
Mike Rizzo. You heard him talk about all the people
that are around him, the Major League staff, the analytics department, everything,
and yet he sat there and said that he also
is confident in knowing what he knows, that he knows
the game of baseball. And I tell people all the
time we all need mentors, you know, growing up and
(50:34):
establishing ourselves as professionals. Well before that, we need opportunity,
and we need encouragement. But there comes a point and
you hit this perfectly, Joe with that quote, where it
has to come from within and you have to have
that inter strength, that interconfidence, so that I love that.
That's great advice at any stage in life.
Speaker 4 (50:52):
It's something that I could speak from a personal experience.
Just briefly.
Speaker 3 (50:56):
When I got the job as the Raised manager, you know,
I had been a backup singer.
Speaker 4 (51:02):
I was never lead singer before. And my agent was.
Speaker 3 (51:04):
Tommy Tanger and along with Allen Ero at the time.
And Tommy came to the introductory press conference in Tampa
Bay and so there's a bunch of people was in
that outfield restaurant whatever, and of course you go to
the press conference. You start up, but you know, talking
about what you want to talk about, and then eventually
ask you questions. But Tommy afterwards said, I've never heard
you speak like that and never heard you say those
(51:25):
things because basically.
Speaker 4 (51:27):
My courage caught up with my passion. That's pretty much
what occurred.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
And then once you're holding your own baby man and
protecting your own family, it's completely different.
Speaker 4 (51:35):
And that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (51:37):
Joe Madden, lead singer. We're going to save that for
another episode.
Speaker 4 (51:41):
You cut it ahead.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
This is fun, Joe. We'll see you next time. I
Love We'll get Joe.
Speaker 4 (51:44):
Thanks Tommy.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
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