All Ball - Bronny Hype-Hangover, Pt. 2: 9-Time Final 4 Official John Higgins on Tournament Pressure, Replay Effect, Favorite Calls

Doug explains the negative effect of the hype surrounding Bronny James USC, and why most teammates aren’t prepared to handle it.

Then, Gottlieb finishes his conversation with 9-time Final Four college basketball official John Higgins to discuss the travel grind of an official, the pressure of working his first NCAA Tournament game, his First Final 4, why replay has made officiating harder, how he found his trademark pants, and what rule changes he would like to see.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey want to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is
all Ball.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
This is part two of our talk with John Higgins,
who is now retired.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
From game officiating.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Was one of the most well regarded, well known and
by fans I think disliked officials in college basketball. And
if he listen to part one, you'd know why because
he wasn't scared to make the big call on the road.
He's got the sandy brown hair, and of course he
talked to us about his yoga pants and why he

(00:39):
wore those.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
So there's a lot to them. I think you'll really enjoy.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Part two, where we start to talk about a little
bit more about officiating and what he wishes he could
change about the game, how he would do it if
he put together a rule book, and does he miss
it now with his first year where he's not officiating
college games, what's it like to officiate in the Final four?

Speaker 1 (01:00):
All these things upcoming.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
We had a crazy weekend in college basketball where Michigan
State kind of out of nowhere figured it out for
a day against Baylor. But the bigger one to me
that's we're talking about is Bronnie James. Bronnie had five points,
came out the bench, USC gets stopped by Auburn, and
I kind of circled around something which appears to be

(01:23):
obvious to me.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Now, are there other factors? Right? We don't have a
control groups. We don't really really know as far as
the case study.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
The fact is is last year at Sierra Canyon, Sierra
Kenny wasn't very good. And when I say not very good,
I don't mean they're blow of five hundred. But they
played Notre Dame, sure mikes under Dame four times, lost
all four times, didn't beat any of the good teams
in their league. And he had just an okay senior season.
And I think you know, Bronnie in his defense handles
all the pressure, all the attention quite well. But one

(01:54):
of the things that's made him in is he's not
really a leader on a point guard, doesn't really take command,
just kind of plays. He's what I would call blend
a player. He blends in. He's a chameleon. He can
fit in kind of anywhere, and he's fine at it.
But considering that Jonathan Jravoni put him as the tenth
rate of prospect in all of basketball, that's what that's

(02:17):
not a blend player spot. And again, this is not
Bronnie's fault. I don't even think it's Lebron's fault. Yes,
Lebron James tweeted out that he's better than NBA players.
He's not, it's not close. But he's also a dad, right,
That's how dads view their kids. I coach youth basketball,
and we get done with the tournament without any without

(02:38):
any chance to breathe. I get a text from every
dad and they all want to know why their kid
didn't play more that their kid is awesome, their kid
is special.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
That's part of what we do as dads.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
We love our kids, we try and protect our kids,
but we also want to promote our kids, and we
view our kids on a higher level than maybe even
they're able to achieve. But the overhyping of him and
the throngs of fans and all that stuff, I think
it makes it harder for Bronnie, but maybe even anything
harder for his teammates. I mean, like there's no real

(03:11):
case study there. But if you if we start with
Sierra Canyon last year, and then in addition to Sierra Canyon,
we go to I don't know this year's USC team
they're not good, but they.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
Should be better than they are.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
And the question becomes, is one reason they're not as
good as they should be because of all the hype
surrounding Bronnie James. I don't actually know the answer to that,
but I can suspect that it doesn't make it easy.
You know, it's just not I mean, consider your boogie, Ellis,
you're in your fifth year as a senior. You're like

(03:48):
Bronnie James afore McDonald's all American.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
I played. This is his third school and he just
wants to go out and hoop.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Then you have Isaiah Collier, who I'm sure loves the
extra added attention. And maybe it's that Isaiah Collier doesn't
really guard anybody. Not a great shooter. I don't think
he's the number one prospect, but that's how Cavoni had
him raided. Others about him rated that as well. It's
one of the reasons I love college basketball. Kind of
exposedes what you do and what you don't do nearly
as well. Anyway, point being that we don't know so

(04:18):
much about what has made this USC team, I guess
you could say underachieved, but the truth is they were
a preseason Top twenty team. They do have some talent,
and yet you look at all the big games they've lost,
you know, except to start the year when I think
they beat k State at k State was not whole

(04:38):
at that point in time, and then of course they
lost to the Long Beach State at home, and Lombia.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
State is not having a great year. Dan Munson's under
some pressure.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
And yes it was the biggest game for Long Beach
State all year, considering is Brownie's debut and Lebron was there.
But as we look to try and figure out, we
know who's good, right Arizona, Purdue, those teams are outstanding, Yukon, Kansas, Kentucky,
most of the usuals.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Oklahoma's a surprising team. We'll talk about them in a second.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
But to me, it's really interesting to watch how all
of this hype affects Ronnie James, and maybe more importantly,
doesn't affect Ronnie James.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
He's used to it, he deals with it, He's dealt
with his entire life.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
It's how does it affect usc because it really negatively
impacted Sierra Canyon last year. If there's a surprise team
in college basketball, it's probably Oklahoma. Now they have ten
new players, but it should be pointing out that two
of their returners, where there are two returners are their
point guard and their center. So you do bring back
some of your coach, your culture. But you know, Jay

(05:46):
McCollum as is just such a dynamic player as a
combo guard, transfers in from Sienna, and he's a guy
who can take Milo's off the ball and can also
play to guard himself.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
I mean, they bring in Jalen Moore, who is.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
A nice player, hasn't played a ton of basketball from
Georgia Tech. Play them at the four, you know, they
play oh Way at the three, or sometimes they switch
the two oh Ways. A great brother plays in the
in the NFL, and he's a dynamic athlete, albeit really
fifteen feet and in as kind of an undersized three
to four if you will.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
They have a nice they have a nice team.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
They bring up bring off the bench kid named Darth
Hard who transferred in from Utah Valley, a great shooter,
and they just have a nice mix of six, seven,
eight guys. Now they have not been pushed and if
you look at who they've played, you know, on paper,
normally Iowa atact of a win, right, but I was

(06:49):
down this year.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Let's just be honest.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
North Carolina is a big game for them as they
play Wednesday on the road against the Tar Heels, who
are old, who are.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Experience, with the suception of Elie Cadoo, who's.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
A freshman who reclassified, but he's actually the age of
a college freshman. I just I look at Oklahoma and
I think there's a surprise team. But I do wonder
what happens now that they played Remember the tougher teams
that they played again on paper, Iowa USC Iowa not
particularly good or down at least lost four seniors from

(07:25):
last year. USC who we've talked about it's been disappointing.
And Arkansas, who if you saw him against Kentucky, you
think they're great, but if you see him on any.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Other night, you're like, they're just okay. They lost a
lot from last year and playing a lot of young guys.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Now they played North Carolina and then you know, you
get in the league play and it gets real.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
I think Oklahoma's pretty good.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
They're better than I thought, but I'm not sure how
they handle the adversity of losing. Porter Mooser is a
tremendous coach, and he's playing a different style, much more
up tempo, much more in your face defensively. But the
question is always what happens when the level of competition
gets raised. Does a team that doesn't really have any
sort of culture and structure because it's so new from

(08:10):
last year, how do they do when they lose a game.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
We'll see, We'll see if they do lose in Chapel Hill.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
All right, let's get you to part two of All
Ball with John Hickins. Well, okay, so back in this
time you were, I mean, one thing about the Big Eight.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Back then, you couldn't fly at all these spots, right, So.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
Give me the give me the hairriest trip you can
remember from the old Big Eight days.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
It was probably on an ice road. There was two
lane back from Oma to Stillwater. Actually, uh, just there
was two lanes going from here to Well from which
you taught to Oakham to Stillwater. And it took like
nine ten hours on ice covered robes, just thick of ice. Uh.

(09:02):
And and I actually left the night before and stayed
the night in York, Nebraska, and it was uh because
I knew it was going to be bad. And then
it was this snow and there's ice on the ground.
It was brutal. I actually drove my truck, my flourhow
drive truck, and that was vehicles off the road everywhere.
And I brought uh, the guy that works for me.

(09:25):
He came with me, uh, and it was that was
talking about treacherous. I got there maybe fifteen minutes before
the game started, but I worked a game.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Did you ever miss a game because of travel?

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah, I have, Like flights are canceled. I was going
to Fresdent once and I got fogged up, fogged in
and I couldn't make it midway. They turned around and
went back, and yeah, I missed. I've missed a couple
of games, but not many compared to how many games
I've done over my over my years, missing games because
of because of weather or something happened to playing only

(10:02):
maybe a couple of times.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
The NCAA tournament right now, that's how you guys are
truly evaluated, as you find out in terms of gain
respect nationally.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
When was your first NCAA tournament game?

Speaker 3 (10:14):
It was ninety four, Yeah, ninety four, and I was
scared to death. Yeah, I was very young. I was
only a couple of years into it, two three, four
years into it and I got my first call. Back then,
they used to send you a packet in the mail
FedEx packet and uh, now was that was crazy? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (10:37):
What was the game?

Speaker 3 (10:40):
It was a one sixteen game in Memphis, Tennessee and
the old Pyramid shoot. I I don't remember the teams.
I remember I was with, uh Donaghee was that Tim
Dunnage's dad? And I can't think of the I can't

(11:00):
thank the other fish I was with, but I remember
boom Rabin Boomervan was there and he was the observer
and he said, he said, it looked like you had
ship in your pants done, and I did. Back then,
you were I mean you were scared. I mean the
insub A tournament a big you're a big boy, and
once you once you get to that ncuble A tournament,

(11:24):
you're like you felt like you've made it. And now
it takes a while to move from one sixteen game
to a eight nine game or seven eight game or
what have you. But it's that was that was nerve
nerve wrecking, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Now, were you still going to the camps at this
time or did you only go the one time.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
I just want it one time.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
Nowadays guys go to ten, fifteen to twenty camps before
they ever get thought of because it's very competitive. There's
one hundred There was one hundred and forty four people
at the n C Double A Academy this year. There
was a you know, they put one hundred guys at
each camp and it's tough now that I mean, it's
you get two, three, four guys out of that camp
that you may hire and may have a chance to

(12:07):
be good enough, and out of those maybe one of
those guys will ever ever make it.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
And so what do you better to do now that
you're hiring? What are you looking for? What is your
what is your what.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Is your eye catch? Because the rest of us we
don't really know what you're what we're looking at? What
we're looking at?

Speaker 2 (12:24):
You know, it's I would say that a lot of
people would just say, like, hey, if I don't actually
notice the referees, that's when they're at their best.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
But that's not necessarily what you're looking what?

Speaker 3 (12:33):
What are you?

Speaker 1 (12:34):
What are you looking for?

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Guys has guys he looks the part number one, he's poised,
he's consistent uh any and he's an he can community
communicate in toughness. If you talk to coaches, the one
thing they say on at least what in my role now,
one thing they say to me is consistency, consistency, consistency

(12:57):
and communication. That's it. That's all they want, consistency and
communication because they know we're going to kick calls. We're
going to kick them and we'll do it both ways,
and that's the way it is. But that's what they want.
And I want guys that that fit that role. And
I want tough guys too. I want guys that have
courage to make the tough call in the tough situation.

(13:17):
And it's tough to see that at camps. So you
know that's why I like Now I'm beating the beating
the road and trying to find those guys that at
h in in in games, and I'm working it. It's
not the easiest to deal in the world, but well,
we'll get them. We'll find them.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Okay. So your first Final four was when UH two.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
I was in Detroit two thousand and I don't know,
I don't remember all that stuff. I don't have like
a wall where I have all the final scores and
all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
But it was Detroit. Okay, yeah, what are you?

Speaker 2 (14:00):
How did you Okay, so this is not FedEx Packett.
How did you find out you're doing the Pottle four?

Speaker 3 (14:05):
A phone call? Yeah, a phone call. They call you
and say, hey, we'd be interested working on the Vinyl
four court. Yeah of course not yeah, yeah, but I remember,
I remember and John Adams come and said, hey, just
no pressure. There's only you know, seventy thousand people out
in the stands and maybe seventy million watching it on TV.

(14:27):
I'm like, well, thanks a lot. So you go through
that motions. But once you know, you know, once you
get to that final four, and you know, once the
ball goes up, it's just it's it's another game. Really,
it's just another game.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
But now is it harder?

Speaker 2 (14:42):
Spatially because you know, when you if you've been up
on that court, it's a little different when you're playing,
specially as as an official.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
It's the same, it's the same. It Actually it feels
like it's a bigger court. It really does.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, it does.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
It just feels like it's you just have way more
room everywhere.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
What about the difference of understanding the magnitude of calls
late in games. I know that, like, look, you're supposed
to write a book, you're supposed to be consistent call
in the first five minutes of the call in the
last five minutes. But but I mean you you there's
been you know, there's a call here, a call there,

(15:23):
which which can dramatically change the.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
History of the sport.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
So what is your what is your philosophy on last
five minutes or even last minute of a game, especially
championship level games, in how you officiate them.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
Well, that's a really good question. Also that the you know,
could people say you always hear people say let that
let the players decide it. Well, if a guy hits
a guy in the arm on a shot at the
end of the game, and it's not much of a
hit to the arm, just brushes his elbow like they
try to do, you don't call it. Guess what that
affects the out come to the game? You don't call it.

(16:01):
You know people say, oh, that's not much of a foul, Well,
it is a file. So if you don't call it,
you're gonna affect one team or the other. If you
call it, it's going to affect that the team that
the foul is on. If you don't, it's chops away.
So you just got to You just got to call
it as as you see it, I guess, and it's
very difficult.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
You can't.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
The one thing I would say is don't get the
big stuff. Don't let the little stuff, the stuff that's
inconsequential go. I would say, you know, if there's something
away for the ball, you could talk the guy out of,
or you could pass on it. And I would probably
say that would be one of the things that you
would you would try to do that, uh, you know,

(16:47):
or put a put a third file on the first
half on their best player, or that's that's a gray
area play, that's that's something that you could pass on.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
So you know, so you do know if it's a
star player, you do know, like he's got too well, you.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
Got to be smart. But you're not going to pass
on a what's a legitimate file, No, you're not going to.
But if you got to say you have you have
the star guy in there and it's something that is great,
if you could pass on it without anything being affected,
I think that's what you should do to keep those

(17:24):
people in game. Now, if you have the fourteenth player
in the game in and he's a knucklehead, and it's like, oh, coach,
I've said the referees all the time, who do you
want in the thirteenth fourteenth player? You want in the
top five guys? Well, you think the coach would want
and you would want the best players in the game.
So if you could kind of referee on that philosophy,

(17:47):
that's you'll be better off in the long run.

Speaker 4 (17:51):
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Speaker 2 (18:03):
There's a lot of things that have changed over time.
I would tell you one of the things that's changed
for the worst over time is I think you mentioned
Steve Wilmer, and we you and I have discussed him,
who was just just a delightful man, right and always.
I'm sure somewhere he's listening to this, hiking up his
pants as we as we speak. The pants actually, but

(18:30):
I actually learned something from him. It was so my
first year I was at Notre Dame. We had Jim
Burr and we had all those big East East Coast officials.
But when I went to Oklahoma State, I remember one
time the ball went out of bounds, like off of
us and but we I felt like I got foul

(18:53):
and it was a time out and I'm sitting there
having discussion with him, and he goes, I missed the foul,
so I'm going to give you the ball even though
it's not your ball, right, which is good officiating, right,
Like I screwed up, but instead of I can't go back,
so instead of going back, it's just going to be
your ball, right.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, But it's now with replays, it's really hard to
do right.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
It's it's hard.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
There's things you can't go back.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
Have replays made it better or worse from your perspective.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
My opinion, I think it's made it worse just just
because what you know, everybody wants the refereence to be
perfect when we're not going to be perfect, because if
players aren't perfect and the coaches aren't perfect, but they
want us to be they want us to be perfect.
You could do that now in a twenty thirty point
game or at the especially at the end of the game.

(19:47):
But with video replay now, if you don't get it right.
Everybody tortures you for getting it wrong. So you you
you that's the part that's changed that I don't like you.
That's why. That's how we I was taught how to
efficiate games like that like Wilmer would do. Uh in
all the top guys would do they would do it
that way. You know, there's guys over the back a

(20:08):
little bit ball goes off his hand. They didn't, they
didn't call the file, just gave the ball back and
that just like you just said, that's that. I think
that's I think that's okay. But in in nowadays with
the video replay and everybody wants everybody to be perfect,
it's it's it's really really hard to do. Young guys can't.

(20:30):
Young guys can't. Young guys can't do that.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, no, absolutely, not.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
A lot has changed, Okay in this in the time
in which the thirty years when she became the most
known rapt in the country, I'd say the the charge
on the dribbler when the guy's dribbling the basketball and
he takes a little contact, because the charge under the
basket has always been a bang bang play.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
It's always hard one.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
And some of the evaluation of it has changed, but
what has most change is guys you know, following like
fading fading goats when they're uh when you're driving. How
do you what is your opinion of that, because again,
like you, you don't want the offensive player to do
the Heisman and just clear out. On the other hand,

(21:23):
it does feel like the defense is in many ways
getting an advantage.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
It's hard for the offensive player. What are your thoughts
on that that type of play.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
It's funny you talk about that. We're in our in
all of our we've had three now four teaching videos
go out to all of our guys, and we're talking
about this path we call a path play where the
offensive guy has a path to the basket and the
defensive guy is cutting this guy's path off where he's
really really not legal. He's on the side and not

(21:54):
in the front of him, two feet facing the opponent,
and there's some contact to We're having a really hard time.
We're putting way.

Speaker 5 (22:03):
Too many files on the offensive guy when there's a
little bit of contact and he has an off his arm,
his opposite his dribble hand just out there to his
guide arm or whatever you want to call it, and there's.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
Some contact, we're calling that offensive files. I think we're
wrong on that play, and we're teaching that that in
order for that defensive guy. Like if I get my
head and shoulders on the side of you and the
defense is on the left side of me, and I'm
going past you, that guy he's no longer in legal
guardian position.

Speaker 5 (22:35):
But we are bailing out the offense or the.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
Defensive guy by calling offensive file on a little contact.
So we're teaching it where the defense has got to
be two feet facing your opponent in front of him.
So on a primary defender, we're talking about, not second
not the secondary defender, which is going to be doesn't
matter what how they do that, it's going to be.
It's going to be. You know, whether it's it's it's

(23:02):
the last plant foot or if it's to gather or
any of that kind of stuff, that's not that's going
to be controversial matter what. But the other player that
you're talking about is path plays. And I think over
the last so many years we've been getting we've been
calling way too many offensive falls.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Agreed, Agreed, that said, what is your favorite You've mentioned
all great reps have a little prick in them right.
What's your What was always your favorite call? To make
you know in terms of the because I I've always
I remember my first time Notre Dame won a big

(23:38):
East game. We played Saint John's in the Garden and
they weren't very good. They were it was that was
Felipe Lopez cover Sports Illustrated and uh Mahoney was the coach,
and they were.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Getting booed at home, and we weren't very good, but
we were.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
We were up the whole game and they went to
a one three one late in the game, and I
got really excited. I was just a freshman, and I
dribble over to the side to make like a fancy
cross court pass to Pat Garrity for a layup, and
I step out of bounds, and I think it was
Jim Burrn. He goes and he touches the sideline, like

(24:18):
bends down, touches the sideline and points the other way.
I remember thinking to myself, if I was a ref,
that would be my favorite one to call the old
touch the sideline and point the other way some like charge.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Everybody's got their own kind of signature flamboyant call. What
was your favorite?

Speaker 3 (24:37):
Probably I don't know. I always get shipped for my
block call or my offensive foul call. I get shit
on that from other referees. Not most people wouldn't notice it,
but for the other referees, they'd give me shit on
that play. What do they say? You do?

Speaker 1 (24:52):
What they what do they say? What's what's the Higgins? Like? Oh,
you did the Higgins? What's the Higgins?

Speaker 3 (24:56):
Well, I'm really slow at the black call. And then
the other one, I would I would just point like
a like a I've never I wouldn't stop the clap
on my fist most of the time. I would just
I would just give a little like a like a
little punch out to the offensive file. The other one,
I would give three point signal. Guys would give me

(25:17):
crap about. Instead of going like three three point, go
like this, I would go like this with my fingers.
So everybody did always make fun of me on that one.
So okay, now that's changed the mechanic now where like
my bosses would always say, hey, uh, you need to
have some hustle, get to the table, run to the
table when you report your files. I never did that.

(25:39):
I was walked. I always thought it looked so much
better and so much more professional when you walk to
the table like you had full of confidence in your call.
That was one of the things that they changed. The
mechanic now now everything you can walk to the table now. So,
but the block charts play were probably the ones that
were kind of like whatever they call my signature Higgins

(26:00):
block charge play.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Did you work on it on the mirror? Did you
want did you want to look a certain way?

Speaker 2 (26:06):
No?

Speaker 3 (26:07):
I just it just evolved over the years. I think
I used to. I used to when I used to
do offensive files. I used to call it and I
lift my back leg up and I'm like, yeah, that
looks like shit, I ain't I'm not doing that anymore. Well,
I saw it on TV a few times, like, uh,
let's just act like, don't you don't have to oversell
that play, So don't oversell it. And I would and

(26:29):
I didn't. So I was more slow and kind of
laid back, and I act like it was simple call.
So it so didn't look like I was trying to
sell the call.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Got it.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
I'll tell you a couple of things that have changed
during your time officiating. One is the game has become
so much more spread out right, but you no longer
used to have a lot of hand fighting and pushing
down low. Now it's it's it's a different game in
that you have the shot goes up and because everybody's

(27:02):
spread out, you have guys kind of sprinting to a rebound, right,
and so it's the the angles are different, the physicalities.
It is still very physical, especially on the boards, but
in a different sort of way.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
How has that change how you officiate the game?

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Because the like I said, the angles are different, the contact,
Like you know, guys are running in from the three
point line to go rebound, so you kind of have
a running start if you will.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
How does that change what you do and how you
do it?

Speaker 3 (27:32):
Well, yeah, you're you're right. Every every single game play
now is pick and roll, pick and roll, pick and
roll of the up of the key. Uh and then
once the ball goes up, your guy guy's coming from everywhere.
So you got to you got to have a broad
vision all three you guy used to be the underneath
guy would be the guy that would get the files

(27:53):
on the on the rebounds. Now you've got to have
all three guys involved in that front core. You can't
have that trail guy backing out not being involved in
the play. Because in a college game and the ball
goes up, you know, it's like a it's a two
pit bulls going at it. It's six seven guys, eight
guys going after the ball, and it's brutal where it

(28:15):
used to be idiot, you know, like well opposite the NBA,
the NBA guy ball go shot up. You don't have
six guys at the board. You just have one or
two guys and that's it. There's a ball and nobody
followed anybody and it goes the other way. In a
college game, it is, it's it's crazy if you don't,
if you don't widen your your your vision and watch

(28:36):
the just the rebounders and and or where the ball
is coming from or where it's going. You you you
got to you got a big problem. But it's uh,
it's you know, back in the day, we have advantage
disadvantage here. You always heard that, right, you have to
if you don't use that philosophy now in rebounding, you're

(28:58):
gonna you can have a file on every single play
on rebounding in college, you can have it on every play.
So you've got to have an idea on where you know,
where's where's the rebound come from, because you can call
it on both offense and defensive guys. It's really hard.
That's probably the hardest part of the game that's changed.
I mean, it's got really physical as far as that

(29:20):
part goes. The outside hand checking, we call that stuff
that's ten one four, we call that stuff that's not
nearly as physical. But the inside when the rebounding part
I think is physical, really physical.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
The other part that that has changed is I feel
like it's as a more physical in the low post.
And so in college basketball, I tell coaches all the
time like I wouldn't throw it in there, you know,
like I just because one, you know, the use of
analytics that tells you that's a that's not an efficient shot.
But two one of the reasons I think it's an

(29:52):
inefficient shot is in trying to eliminate all of the hands.
Guys are smart now about using their bodies. And I
would also say that, you know, when I when I
first started playing high level basketball, I was taught about verticality.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
But there was a change.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
It was about ten years ago when all of a sudden,
you guys started really allowing players to use verticality. So
again the difference is it's I think it's harder to
score now because one players are better and smarter, not
trying to block everything, and they're using verticality. But two,
they're also, especially in post play, they're kind of using

(30:32):
their lower body that you can't see, and it's really
hard for big guys to score in there. What do
you think of the changes in that one use of
verticality and to the physicality in a low post.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
They've also changed where you could you know, if the
offensive guy it's you know, the offensive guys trying to
back you down, you have the right is the defensive
guy to use your form to hold them back? So
you know, it's it's you're right about the defense and

(31:07):
the post play, because when two guys are coming together,
it's hard to determine who has the who has the
offensive file, and who is, uh, you know, who's committing
the fop the offense or defense. So who are you
gonna penalize? You gotta you gotta first determine who initiated

(31:30):
the contact, so that and that's really hard to do
if they come together and they both hit and they
boom boom, who you're gonna call foul on you call
following one guy. One guy can be pissed off, called
the other guy. The other guys can be pissed off.
So if it's equal pressure, it's If it's it's it's
about having excess pressure and displacing the offense or displacing

(31:53):
the defense. If you can think of the displacement part
of it, I think you could officiate the play fairly.
I'm not you know, it's really really hard to take
out if their two bodies are bumping, who who's who
is in the right, who's in the wrong, And it's

(32:15):
very it's it's one of the difficult, most difficult parts
of the game, uh to officiate on. You know, who's legal,
who's not legal, who's just who's displacing? It's really hard
to just to determine that.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
When did you When did you change to the the
like yoga stat like the stretchy pants?

Speaker 1 (32:35):
When did that happen? You? Probably?

Speaker 3 (32:39):
I don't know. I went to UH oh probably ten
years ago, nine years ago. Well, the pants back in
the day were terrible. They're awful, but now they're way
way better. We I work, I worked public rerecs or
little lemons for the last five ten years, and there's
so much more comfortable than the old zenz a belt.

(33:02):
I mean it's like night and day better.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
How did you not get any nil out of this thing?
Like if you didn't, I should oh, I should have.
I mean you shut it down when you you should
have had nil?

Speaker 3 (33:12):
You should have.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
There's all these you mentioned public Wreck, there's all these
different brands of those comfortable.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Movable So okay, so what are the rules? What are
the rules? You have to have all black sneakers and
all black pants?

Speaker 2 (33:25):
Is there any rule other than I gotta have all
black stinkers and all black plants and the pants have
to come down, you know, to the shoe?

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Is that?

Speaker 3 (33:31):
Basically?

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Is that? What? What are the actual rules.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
For black shoes, black pants? The regular N cub A shirt, however,
there is a little tiny logo in the back of
the manusfacturer that makes that shirt is on the back
of it. So you know we proposed actually, when you
say that, a year ago, some guys in that Southeast
acc talked about getting there getting an NIL for referees basically,

(34:00):
so why can't if they can do all that kind
of stuff, why can't we put a logo on our shirt.
But that hasn't come to it. Nothing's come to fruition
yet for those guys.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
So this call, this call is brought to you by
Lulu Lemmons.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Everything You're right, everything else is sold in the sport.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Why do you see Clark on Kaitlin Clark's on national
ads on TV. Now, it's unbelievable. It's making a killing.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Outside of so so you went to him. Now do
other rests come up to you?

Speaker 3 (34:32):
We're like, oh, yeah, there's a bunch of dudes wearing them.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Now, yeah, yeah, you were the first.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
I was the first guy that I know of. I mean,
you can ask, you can ask a bunch of referees,
and I mean I remember back in the day when
I was a young referee. Every were those disgusting black
polyester pants from I don't know whom and them two.
I went, why don't we Actually, my brother in law,
it just owns a clothing store. Normally he went to

(35:04):
I went to the pleated pants and people would, oh,
they gave me. Some of the referees gave me so
much crap. But there was so more, much more comfortable
than they were. Uh Now, But and then all of
a sudden, Wilmer started wearing him, and Mike Tommy O'Neil
started wearing them, and and now everybody started wearing these
pleated pants. And then now they've gone back the way
and gone to the straight pants. And then that's when

(35:25):
all the straight pants I went to the to the uh,
to the little Lemons and public wreck pants classic.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, you're a style made, style made right. Uh what's
his name?

Speaker 3 (35:40):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Was it forte? What he he changed the whistle? Right,
the fox forty whistle?

Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, that was?

Speaker 2 (35:48):
That was That's That's the only other guy I know
who's known known for.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Changing any changing the style, and yeah, changing changing the style.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
Your funniest or most interesting in your best story for
running a guy for throwing a coach out, oh.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Jee, probably probably when Fran McCafferty. We threw up Fran
at Northern Iowa and his wife we we his wife.
I don't know if you know anything about Fran and family, just.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
So you know.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
Okay, So when I went to Notre Dame, huh, Fran
recruited me. Okay, and his wife at the time, he
Margaret was an assistant on the women's team.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
She was the all time leading rebounder at Notre Dame
at the time.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
I don't know if she still lives, but and here's
how they were just dating at the time. And what
what happened is we get done practicing and Frand would
keep him.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
He would observe, like they're up at McGrath's practice.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
So I just I mean like, at first, you're like, okay,
coach to coach, you're watching, and then at some point
I could tell what was up, and I was just like,
so I believe and you could ask Fran next time
you see him. Yeah, I believe that friend would tell you.
I was the first player to discover their romance. So yes,

(37:15):
I know a lot about.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
Yes. So it's Iowa, Northern Iowa, and they weren't playing
with the with the dam and uh, Paul Jansen and
I and I can't remember who else was on the game. Anyway,
I Paul got him the first time and I whacked
him and threw him out. Now he you know how
he does it. He starts going crazy and uh, he's

(37:43):
walking like we're starting to do free throws the other
the other end of the court, and he's walking up
and he's trying to he's trying to get to me
still and the police are on him. Next you know,
his wife is coming after me and I'm out there
like it was a crazy thing. The world talking about
ultra competitive people. She is, she's like Greg Marshall's wife.

(38:09):
She was competitive. I mean she's the same exact same way. Uh.
And we've I've run him before too, but but that
was very That was a crazy uh guy we threw out.
Now it's funny. We talked about it at this last
summer where we haven't been. It got a little crazy

(38:31):
once in a uh in a exit not an exhibition,
but a close scrimmage at Creighton where him and I
were about to go to fifty cups and I said
I'm out of here because he was with some We're
in a close scrimmage here in Omaha, and I told
h Rasmussen that the a d And I told McDermot.
I was like, you know, this last time I had

(38:53):
him it didn't go so well. He doesn't like me
and uh and so he started in and on it
and now I'm in. I tagged in. He in on
our young on some young referee. I'm like, shut up,
stop and he said you can't talk to me like that.
I said, I just did. And he says, you started start.
The assistant coaches are holding them back. This is a

(39:16):
close scrimmage. Hold them back. I said, let him go, boys,
let him go. And Bruce came out and Greg came out,
and I said, I can't tell you what I said,
but uh, it was it.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
Was what you said.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
I said, fuck him. I told you this is going
to happen. Fuck him. So so, but we talked about
it this last summer when we visited in the camp
and again, well you've talked earlier about you know, inside
of it, inside the lines is way different than outside
the lines. And we had a really good conversation about it.
And then the other one was Bobby Hurley. This is

(39:52):
a great story. So this is I went to speak
to their team this year and into uh preseason, right
like you go around to talk to coaches and players
and that stuff. So he introduces me and says, oh,
this is John Higgins Final Four referee and blah blah,
you know all the crap. He goes, well, we're in
their theater room and he goes, hey, uh, before I

(40:16):
we go into him talking about new rules and mechanics
and stuff. He says. He says, he's I got to
show you a video. And I remember I had the
Arizona Arizona State game where I threw him out. I
was like seventy foot away. And then and he and
kudos to him. He goes boys, and after I whack him,

(40:37):
show the perste then whack him and run him. He
starts pulling off his coat and his shirt to eye
and he goes, boys, This is not how you're supposed
to act, just so you know, So kudos to uh,
kudos to Bobby Hurley.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
There's so many of them like that, where like fr
you mentioned frand Bobby's like that too, where like you
sit and you watch with them and they're just so calm,
so nice and thoughtful.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
Then yeah, James going different human being, totally different human being.
I mean, my conversations with Bobby Hurley now are like,
I mean, when when the lights go on, he's just
who's him? And Larry Stacey, there's guys like that when
the lights go on, it was it's they're a different,
different person.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
Most games you've ever worked.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
In a year, uh one hundred and five.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
What what's that like on your body?

Speaker 3 (41:36):
It's you know, I was a little bit younger then,
so it wasn't didn't feel like it was that big
of Actually the body is. It's the mind that's it.
It's harder on your mind than it is the body
because you got to be mentally. You got to be
mentally prepared for it. Every night I work out, and
the way I didn't worked out no matter, I still do.
I still work out four five days a week. So

(41:59):
I remember when I didn't have a game for two,
three four days and I came back, I felt like
I was rusty. So but again, once you work that
many games, it's the mental part that's that's way worse
than the physical part. If you're in good shape, if
you're not in good shape and you you know, you
have something that's hurting you, or you got a knee

(42:19):
or ankle or hip or whatever, that's hard. That's really
hard to be focused mentally.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Yeah, because that's the that's the criticism, right is the
criticism is you guys can work as many games you want.
When you were the biggest referee in college basketball, people
want you on every night, and the fear is that, hey,
I got him on the fifth game in five nights
and he's not as mentally sharp. What would your pushback

(42:50):
be if somebody said, Hey, in our game, you weren't
as sharp because you worked the last three nights.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
See I I don't. I don't buy that. I think
you're more. I think you're sharper because you see more plays,
just like you taking jump shots every single day, are
shooting free throws. You're sharper. The more you shoot, the
better you are. I think that's the way my mentality is.
If I were, I would say a guy works four
to five days a week. I think it's perfect. Again,

(43:19):
I always say it's two hours a day that you're
working as you're refereeing, And I don't think that's really
that difficult. If you are. If you're again, you got
to be mentally and physically sharp. You've got to be.
You got to. You do have to do some studying
on your teams that you play and the coaches that

(43:39):
you have, so that part of it is, you know,
outside the two hours. But I would rather have a
guy that's working four or five days a week than
the guys work once a week, because that guy isn't
he hasn't seen enough plays. I said to young guys. Oh,
you've got to keep seeing playing. You got to see plays,
You got to be and put yourself in situations because
you learn by experience, and the more experience you have,

(44:03):
the better off you are to make a decision and
tough time.

Speaker 2 (44:07):
So something that I think you've said which I completely
agree with, and I and you know me, like I
made equip about you in an NCAA tournament game. I've
been on TV hard unofficials on a play here there.
But there's a way in which we and I don't
think it's just officials, right, government officials, teachers. How we

(44:31):
look at people, anybody who's in authority, police officers, our
lack of kind of societal respect for who they are
and what they what they do. You did for a
long time and I know you've been kind of outspoken
on how like, Look, the reason we have a referee

(44:52):
shortage is why would anybody want to put themselves in
a position where I'm actually I drive by. There's a
place where it called them where we play a weekend
or two weekends a month, and that was where you know,
you have one girl punch another girl and then the
parents go after the official. How has it changed? From
your perspective in terms of how people treat officials during

(45:16):
your thirty years of doing at the highest.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Level, well at the lower level, it's it's it's crazy.
I think it's the money part at all these tournaments,
but they put together the money part of it. People
think they can say and do what they want to
do because they paid for their kid to play on
this on this basketball team. So they think they have
the right to say what they want to say to

(45:38):
their to the referees, like they think that their Johnny
is going to be the next Michael Jordan Kevin Durant,
But you know, ninety nine point nine percent them aren't
going to be those people. It's gotten brutal compared to
the path of course. I mean back when I was
playing a little I mean it was cyo basketball. No
parents said it work. In fact, half the parents didn't

(46:00):
even come. That was just too many kids or that's
just what they didn't do. They dropped their kid off
and they play and be done. Now every parent's got
to go to everything and they got to have a
voice about everything, and it's unfortunate for the kids because
they're embarrassed kids. If you ask a kid about it
now and they're here kid talk about their parents that

(46:21):
says them to the referee or the coach. They're embarrassed
by it. It's gotten really bad. I mean that a
couple of years ago where my sixteen year old son
and he didn't his partner didn't show up for a game,
and we're refereeing some freshmans and they were really bad
freshmens and this kid tells me to fuck off and

(46:44):
you suck and after he followed out and he's terrible.
This kid couldn't play dead in a Cowboy movie and
he and I just I couldn't believe it. And I
found out his dad was a coach and he's acceptable
to what the kid did. Really sad.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Wait, so you hopped in with your son my son?

Speaker 3 (47:06):
Yes, like it was freshman, bad freshman. It was one
of those summer camp things or whatever they are over
in Ireland, and uh and uh. I refereed the game
and it was this kid there's this team was not
very good, it was, but they were just beat the
hell out of the other team. And the other they
actually team came back and beat him. It wasn't the

(47:26):
team was ain't good, but this this kid just kept
falling and we kept calling foul and the coach started
saying stuff and I stopped him. I whacked him, and
then the kid did and I whacked him. And then
he as he had got his fifth fall, he walked
out his ten foot from me, flipped me off and said,
you fucking suck. This is a fourteen year old kid
saying that to me. I was like, oh boy, this said.

(47:48):
So I entered the game and uh we threw the
coach out and he denied that he didn't know, he
didn't know the kid. It was crazy. It was absolutely crazy,
and that's sad part of our society, and that that's why,
that's why majority the people don't stay in refereeing.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Yeah, no, it's it's a terrible part of our society.
It's the it's the your kid gets in trouble in
school and you find out. Do you confront the kid
and make him, you know, apologize to make change, or
do you ask the kid and then call the teacher
or call the principal like the teacher did something wrong.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
That's why I do.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
I don't know where that comes from.

Speaker 3 (48:30):
I don't know. I don't have no idea where it's
coming from. I don't. It wasn't like that, Mike. When
I was growing up, we had nuns at my grade
school in high school and whatever they did that hell,
they beat the hell out of you. And my mom
did never say anything to him, never, And you did
something wrong obviously. But that's that's just the society today.

(48:51):
I don't know why changed or how it changed, but
it's changed, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
You talked about Allen Field House, what a cathedral it is.
Why does it feel like for road teams that they
don't get a fair end of the ship.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
I don't know. That's a good question. I've had. People
always said, oh, you know, if you look on these
boards of different universities, oh, Higgins is a homer for
this guy for this tam and can't say he's a
homer for there in Oklahoma he's a homer and blah
blah blah. Every school says the same thing about officials,
like I used to hear that about the Kansas. The

(49:29):
funny thing is I used to get phone calls at
our office from people from Kansas and say, why do
you hate Kansas so bad? You know, they get beat
by Kansas State or get beat by somebody and I
had the game. It's just it's I don't know, I
don't think it's true. It's just they've had good teams,
they've had good players. I mean, you could kid deny
that it won national championship. They win thirty games a year.

(49:49):
It doesn't matter where they play. It's just and it's
just like that, any team that's winning winning winning.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
What is it like to with the momentum of crowds again?
All these games the home crowd gets going. You are
a human being. How do you how do you or
maybe how do you teach younger officials not to get
caught up in the in the crowd and the energy
and let it affect them.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
See, I think I think just the opposite. I think
i'd like to, you know, if it's a tough call
and goes get a zum team and they're boon the
hell out of you, that kind of makes you feel good.
And I just I just I don't know why. It
just makes like, hey, screw them. I'm right on the play.
I don't care what they think. I'm right on the play.
And you know, majority of time we are right. Unfortunately

(50:37):
for them that you know, referees are you know, for
the most of the good ones are good eighty five
nine percent of time or pretty pretty much correct. But
I like that feeling the home crowd coming down on you.
I really do. Yeah. I mean.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
The the only other guy who was like that that
I remember, but now I didn't like having his official
because I thought he had too much rabbit ears and
the little stuff was Dave Libby.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Dave Libby was the guy though that if you.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Were on a road team and the home players or
coaches or a fan pissed him off, yeah, then he
would you do like all right, because he was the
only guy in four years of college basketball who was
on the scanning report.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
In the game.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Libby's doing the game. Don't say a word, don't stare
at him, don't do ship.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
And by the way, my last college basketball game was
the Elite eight Florida beat Florida beat US.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
But he he banged coach with a t and all
coach said.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
Was, Dad, that's the same call you made again Oklahoma.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
And it was bad, man, and it's bad, that's all
he said. And he rang them up in the NCAA tournament. Wow,
uh okay, I'm.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Gonna I'm gonna put you in charge. Now you're now
you're overseeing you know, the West. First like what why? Why?

Speaker 1 (52:10):
Why hang them up? Why go illustrative level?

Speaker 3 (52:15):
That's a great question. They came to me at the
final four and asked me if that'd be interested. I'm like, okay, yes,
what is it? What?

Speaker 1 (52:24):
What?

Speaker 3 (52:24):
What's the job entail? And uh so, I you know
these jobs first of all, these jobs don't come open
very often. Uh And I just thought my wife's hald
have been after me for years about when are you
going to give it up? What are you going to
give it up? When are you gonna give it up?

Speaker 1 (52:39):
I'm like, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (52:41):
I don't know when the time comes. And then they
they this opportunity came up, and I thought, let me
take a look and shot at it. And now when
I don't, I don't know if I'm trying to give
back or tried to just that's a good question. I
could have go. I could have referee another three, four,
five years. I could have I don't know.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
How much do you miss it? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (53:03):
I do? I do miss the court, I do. Yeah,
I do miss the corp. Yeah I do. That's the
fun part. I like going to the games and now,
I say.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
Has anyone ever come like like like.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
Boxers come out of retirement and officials ever come out
of retirement?

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Uh yeah, oh yeah, I know there Mike Littlewood like
went to baseball coach baseball at b YU for eight
ten years. He just came back two years ago. Yeah. Yeah,
he's a high level official too. So yeah, you never
say never. You don't know. You don't know what's going
to happen well with the you know, with all what's
happening in all of college sports. Who knows what's going

(53:40):
to happen with you know, since the pack is basically
dissolved after I got the job. You don't know. I
don't know. I don't know what if. I don't know
if I may have a job next year. I don't
know any of that stuff. So I don't know. We'll see.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Oh man, you take a job to oversee conference and
then the conference goes away.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
Yeah, so I don't know, Yeah exactly, that's exactly what
What the hell just happened? What what did I do?
So it is what it is, and whatever happens happens,
there's a reason I got.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
I got two more for you. One. I give you your.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Own rule book John John Higgins rule Book. You know
it's a long time, you know the chapter and verse?
What would you what would you change? What would you
bring back? What would you do if you got a
chance to change the rule book?

Speaker 3 (54:34):
Well, first of I'll make it way simpler. You know,
have you ever read the rule book?

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (54:39):
So I so. I had j Billis last year at
a fundraiser in Oman. I was the EMC with with him,
and and he's obviously a very intelligent guy and attorney
by trade, and and I said, Jay, have you ever
read the rule book?

Speaker 2 (54:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (54:54):
I said, how could you? Could you understand this rule book?

Speaker 2 (54:58):
No?

Speaker 3 (54:59):
I cannot understand it. You got to make it way
simpler because there's exceptions to every rule, and there's exceptions
to the exceptions to that rule. So it needs to
be much simpler, make more straightforward. There's a lot of
rules that you could there's so many petty rules that
you none of us know. But and I know one thing.

(55:21):
Coaches don't know him for sure. You could tell a
coach that's the rule coach, and he goes, oh, okay,
that's the rule. Okay, and you have they had no idea,
So make it, make it simpler would be the first
thing I would do.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
But no specific rules that you know that.

Speaker 3 (55:36):
You know, I mean, like like the end of like
the other day, the Georgetown game, as you saw that
the guy got stepped out of bounds, So you can
do you can do it every other or all these sports, football, whatever,
they go back on scoring play, especially at the end
of games. They go back to say, oh, no, the

(55:56):
ball was out on the twelve yard line with fifteen
seconds to go on the clock. That's that score doesn't count.
Why can't we do that? In basketball? That play would
never counted. They'd have put the ball back and play
with one second to go. Other team's bowl game one
did other team would have won the game. We can't

(56:17):
do that in basketball.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
We can.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
We can go look at it, you know, if the
ball goes out a bounds with between two people and
it goes out of bounds to kick to see who
hit it off of. But on that part and you
don't have a whistle, the biggest key. You don't have
a whistle, so you can't look.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Well, let me let me ask you this though.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Okay, what about if there was a foul that pushed
him out of bounds, that wasn't called and he stepped
out of bounds like there, there's the real there go
Look if you don't have a whistle, I understand. But

(56:58):
what I'm saying is I'm saying is if there's a
little of Pandora's box, right, can you go back and
call a foul that wasn't there to make up for
the fact that.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
Only if it's flagrant, Like I can't go call common foul.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
I mean again, I know you can't. I'm saying, should
you be?

Speaker 3 (57:22):
I'm giving you.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
Okay, So that's different.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
So you think if you go back and you see
a foul that you didn't previously see, you should be
able to call that foul. Again, I'm not saying it's
a rule now, I'm saying, if it was the John Higgins,
this is how I would do.

Speaker 3 (57:37):
It rule book.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
Is that what your rule book was?

Speaker 3 (57:39):
Common sense? I think you make it simpler. I think
I think you should. If you all beneficials are common sense, guys,
referee common sense again. If you don't, I mean, coaches
are common sense most of the time. They don't want
the nitpick things. And that's why I would referee. That's
what I want guys to referee.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
Last thing, I ain't even more than gracious in your time.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
Because you were such a high ranking official, because of
the air, and because you do have that kind of
inner prick where I'll make the big call on the road,
and you had your own style of block charge. You're
you're forever going to be a guy like I he
that guy. What would you say to somebody who meets

(58:27):
you on the street and a little bit like our
conversation down Arizona Belmont, Right, this is what Belmont. Arizona's
kicking the crap out of Belmont and a kid from Arizona. God,
I can't remember the kid's name. I think he's from La.
He hit a three and he turned around to the
bench and said big or something like that, and you

(58:50):
and you teat him, you acted, and I said, and
this is what I said. I was like, ah, that's
a call from a game, right, And you came up
to me, and you.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
Came up to me.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Like, hey, just so you know, my dad was a coach,
played my whole life, played.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Division two basketball or whatever, like this is what he said.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
It's the right call.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
But to somebody who doesn't know you, who doesn't get
a chance to have the personal interaction. What would you
tell him about who you really are as a person
as opposed to who you were.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
Ah, yeah, oh.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
Boy, that's I'm probably way kinder and nicer in as
a person outside of the basketball court that I am
on the basketball court.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
You know, we do a lot of terrible things here
in our town, and and I do a lot of things.
For a guy that got me in officiating, he's lived
in an apartment complex of mine for years and years
and years. I just helped him move back to his
apartment after three months in the hospital. And my wife
is a he's very charitable. Our whole family has done that.

Speaker 1 (59:56):
We do.

Speaker 3 (59:57):
We give to a bunch of Catholic organizations and and uh,
we volunteer a bunch. So I don't know that's the
kind of person where we do a Madonna fund fundraiser thing,
if that's what you're trying to ask.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
No, I think I think it's more like, here, here's
how I would I would I would sell you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
It's like just like mccam different.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Can be a complete, complete, complete lunatic during the game, right,
and then when you meet Frean McCaffrey, like that's one
of the kindest human beings I've ever met.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Right when when we're in that arena, we take on our.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Roles, right and and part of your And I'll also say,
you're you're hardened by the years of being told.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
You are you are right that you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Yeah, that's true. I uh it did over the years.
At first. You know, if you took it literally, you'd
be you'd be a mental case. You'd be totally a
mental case. Uh, if you took it how bad you were,
and how what a piece of ship you are, and
and you're you're you're you're awful. You're the worst referee
in the history of the basketball. And you took that
if you listen to that ship every day, you'd be

(01:01:11):
you'd be in a mental ward. But I'm you know,
they know nowadays, I'm just like everybody else. I like
to go drink it, have a have a drink or
two every other night, and then go socializing and be
a be just to be a normal person. I like
I love just like I love going to my leg

(01:01:31):
I was just sitting there and doing nothing. Are going
mow the lawn. I love mowing the lawn. I love
keep my yard looking pretty. I love that it's so mindless,
it's wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
I'm gonna get you free drinks. Okay, what is your drink?

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
Tangary tonic lemon lime tall glass.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
Okay, because I guarantee how many basketball people listening to
this pod and they're going to roll up on you
and be like, you know what, I.

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
Got this one a man?

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
You know that that that that's that's how the sport works.
Last thing, who's the goat? Who referee to referee?

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
You're one of the most decorated referees in the history
of the sport. Who is the guy who you believe is.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
The referee ever? Probably Jimmy Burrow. Yeah, he had the
courage and I know you probably didn't like him because
you had at Notre Dame, but he was he was
He had the toughness, he had great courage, He had
great ability to take a game over and needed to.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
He wasn't probably the guy that would communicate the best
with everybody. But other than that, he was he was
a great play caller and he had he had that
it factor that that would that that not a lot
of people have him and Timmy Higgins, Ted Hillary there's
you know, there's a boatload of guys.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
This is my favorite Tim Megan story. Okay, so remember
he did my games a bunch of Notre Dame and
I got to know all you guys on a couple
of these. The tournaments are the best because that's when
you run into the reps and Puerto Rico and Hawaii
with But we did a game at Louisville and I
think it was actually first of Jay. We did Louisville
Cincinnati January one game and it was an early game,

(01:03:22):
and uh, he beats me to the airport and he's
sitting at the airport bar and I roll in and
we're watching a game and it goes double overtime. And
he turns to me and he says, mister Gottlieb, do
you know what we call double overtime and officiating?

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
And I said, no, no, mister Higgins, what do you
call it?

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
He said, that's true. I said that. So that so
one of my guys refereated double overtime game and I
said on the text, I'm like, I said, you guys
are fired at two overtime, bad officiation the game.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Let's ship up, Let's wrap this ship up. Uh, perfect timing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Hey, listen, I truly appreciate you doing me kind of
letting people behind the curtain and and the relationship that
we've been able to kind of build through the years.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
So on the road, I owe you, and and in
the meantime, thanks, thanks so much, take care, we'll see.

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
It on the road.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
Here. That's it for my John Higgins interview. I hope
you enjoyed it.

Speaker 6 (01:04:38):
If you miss part one downloaded, make sure you write
a review, make sure you subscribe, make sure you rate
the pod as well. And if you liked it, tweet
it out, send it to a friend. Tell me dig
all Ball. Tell why you dig all Ball. I'm Doug
Golly this it's All Ball

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
App