Episode Transcript
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Must be twenty one and be present in Colorado, Illinois,
Indiana and Pennsylvania to play gambling problem called when you
heard gambler. Hey, welcome in. I'm Doug Goliban. This is
(01:45):
all ball quick programming. Note you should check out the
Doug Gottlieb Show daily three to six Eastern twelve to
three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, the I Heart Radio app,
or wherever wherever you download UH podcast as well. Um
Sean McCaw is my guest on this pod. Sean was
(02:07):
very good college basketball player in Southern Utah, started his
career at Arizona. But maybe more importantly, he's written a
book on traveling and playing in Europe. Played thirteen years
overseas and it's really an informative book. Well kind of
get to his story and what led him to write
the book and what he's doing now, it's it's fantastic.
I think you're gonna love it. It's it's upcoming. I'll
(02:28):
only say this about Ben Simmons. It does relate to
the Kyrie Irving story from this perspective, Ben saying he's
got not mentally in the right head space to play,
and Kyrie saying this is a personal decision. If we
judge these things just based upon how it reads, Okay,
it's hard to push back against somebody mentally not being
(02:50):
the right headspace. It's hard to bag push back against
Kyrie saying, hey, this is my personal decision, even though
I think it's silly. You have a job once, once
you knew there was the likelihood of having to get
vaccine in or to play in these games. And oh yeah,
by the way, the really unselfish thing is to get
a vaccination. But I'm not doing a vaccination pot. But
(03:10):
the problem with both of these players, who are immensely
talented is there's other stories that leads you to believe
or leads you to not believe whatever they're telling you.
Now you know Kyrie has been hurt a bunch, and
then he didn't want to play in the bubble, he
got hurt last year, didn't play in the playoffs. There's that.
You know, he's just been a tough one to really
(03:32):
wrap your arms around and love, even if you love
his talent in the way he plays. Ben Simmons like, look,
if this was really an issue, why was it the
one issue in the contract that they can't find you for?
Pretty smart? Didn't show up on time, then shows up
without telling anybody that has the cell phone in his pocket. Again,
in and of itself, either of these stories, you know,
(03:53):
whether you agree or disagree with them, it's not the
worst thing in the world. But when you factor in
other issues where they have said something else to try
and get out of doing something else for their job,
you kind of start to roll your eyes and not
really believe the validity of what they're saying. All right,
let's let's get to Sean McCaw who's an author, he's
now a teacher, he's a former coach and a former
(04:15):
star playing in Europe. Okay, so Sean, you're you're joining
us from Germany where you just had back surgery. From Germany?
What what what I mean? Is this a this is
a basketball injury? Is this years and new years of
playing Who with the back or is something you just did,
you know, picking up a box. It's the wear and
(04:36):
tear of being a professional athlete, from from playing years
on the concrete basketball courts in Vegas. It's just the
wear and tear of an old guy. Um. Okay, So
growing up though, what was your what was basketball like
for you who like, let's go high school? AU team
(04:56):
was what team? Um? I mean I'm an old guys,
so so it wasn't that popular in Vegas. When when
I was coming out, I went to a lot of
the Pump Brothers um things, and and so my my
biggest team was the Las Vegas Arcs or something like that,
and we went to Arizona State. We went to a
(05:18):
couple of things in California and we did some stuff there.
But Asian basketball is not the same like it is
now back then. No, but but Vegas was still I mean,
I grew up in southern California and that's where we
went for you know, the Big Easter Tournament. And then
of course we had the John Farrell National Championship in
the summer. And it wasn't just the North and South gym's.
(05:39):
It was all the different high school gyms at the time.
Um So, so you're you're playing and were what was
your You know, Vegas has become a pretty good Welsh
a lot of talent there, not just going to Finlay
but kids that lived there. Right, Um but you your
(05:59):
thought in terms of playing in college? What was your
or playing professional? Like? What was your mentality when you're fifteen,
sixteen years old, you're traveling l A and Pump Brothers, Like,
what was what were the thoughts in your mind of
what this? What you wanted to get out of this game? Well,
at that time, I was pretty wrong and I didn't
have the grand illusion of being a professional basketball player.
(06:22):
Of course, every kid wants to, but I think my
media goal was I wanted to play for I wanted
to play for UNLV. That was my I mean, our
biggest kid. What the biggest kid doesn't want to play
for the Rebels. So that was probably my my my
initial goal. But um so when I graduated in ninety one,
they were under a whole lot of trouble and so
(06:42):
when that dream kind of fell to the wayside. Of
course I was getting proved by some some pretty good
colleges and end up going to University of Arizona. But
back when I was fifteen, sixteen years old, my goal
was to be a running brother. Okay, so you go
to Arizona. Who recruit dator U coach Wilson and and
why did you choose Arizona? Well, Um, Arizona ended up
(07:07):
being the last choice that I had. UM, and I
really wanted to wait and see what was going on
with un l V. And then it got to the
point where it was like, Okay, I'm waiting for so
long that other schools are starting to fall off. And
he had told Boston College, you know, we had told
um Lawn State, No, we had told a lot of
schools no already that it was recruiting me. And coach
(07:30):
also was still interesting, and it was like, Okay, this
Vagas thing is not gonna work. Let's go to Arizona.
I was a big fan of Sean Elliott UM, so
that was kind of a draw for me as well.
And UM, I went into a little bit naive, but
but that was the choice that was supposed to be
made for me at that point. So you showed up
(07:50):
at Arizona as a freshman, what was it like? I
was a hot mess man? I was a hot mess.
I was. I was a very confident kid, but I
hadn't proven anything. I mean, I wanted a state championship
in in in in Vegas the year before, but I
was very real. My college roommate, my freshman yew, was
Damon starter Wire. He was very polished. The very first
(08:13):
day of practice, I looked like that guy. I was like, hey,
that's a that's a feature from He was killing Man
Earth think in practice. Me, on the other hand, I
was matched up against Chris Mills, who immediately took exception
to the high level of trash talking and I was
I was doing as a freshman, and I think it
(08:33):
was the first practice of the year. He broke my
notes with an elbow, a very intentional elbow, but it
was basically like, hey, kid, shut up, get in line,
wage your turn. Um, how much did you play? Oh man?
That was a scrub. I mean, I was getting garbage time.
I was the kind of the fan favorite because I
(08:56):
would get in and get dunks and stuff like that.
And uh, you know, never forget playing against LSU when
Shack was there on National TV. I played I think
the last two and a half minutes and all my friends,
uh and family. They called me after the game, was like, hey,
you got played two minutes, you know. So that kind
of got to my head a little bit, and that
was part of the reason why what led to my
(09:17):
downfall in Arizona. But um, I played my my role
until until unceremoniously kicked off the team. But I wasn't
I wasn't happy to um. I remember that LSU game,
right was that was the one in Baton Rouge. I
was like the no, no, no, this was ninety one.
This was in in the Mickelson in like Christmas tournament
(09:41):
or something. Because the year before, the year before was
was was the year that Shack just dominated dominated was
dunks in the cabbage Batch. Yeah, okay, so you mentioned
get kicked off the team. What happened? What really happened.
I was in the doghouse the whole here, man, I was.
I was partying, I was having fun. I was living
(10:02):
the life of an eighteen year old just away from
away from home for the first time I was. I
was just a hot mess. I was on academic probation.
I was just terrible. But then I think it was
in January, um I was out of the doghouse and
Sean Brooks was was really a really good inspiration for me,
(10:23):
and he took me under his wing and kind of
helped me out a lot. And uh, I was getting
out of the doghouse, and for some reason we went
on a world trip to Cow. We were like the
Cow Stanford Swing and in Stanford we we want to
think in the buzzer or something like that. So it
was clear that I didn't get in then, and uh
cal we were blowing him out and that was usually
(10:45):
my time. And the fans that had been traveling with us,
we're calling my name because that was definitely Shawan time,
you know, and they were changing my name. But I
didn't get in, and Coach Wilson came like to the
bottom of the bench where I was sitting next to
Sewan to Sean looks and he came over and looked
at it, just stood over me and looked at and
(11:06):
then he put in Rayos, who was also a freshman,
and he was the same type of player and actually
as I was. But it was we kind of had
a hierarchy of of the guys that played, and it
was clearly Damon was twenty minutes a game, right and
then if if there was garbage time, it was me
and Raking and he just puts Ray in. I didn't
see the floor. So everybody's looking at me like, Sean Money,
(11:28):
what did you do now, I'm like nothing, I'm I'm good.
I didn't do anything and I didn't play and I
was a hot he backing. So after we get back
to Tucson and I think we had practiced the next
day on Oneday. And if you know the Tucson if
you know the mchael Center, UM, it's all right on campus.
Eighteen thousands arena. UM. There's people walking through the campus
(11:53):
and walking through the mchael Center to get the class.
There's reporters there, so at any given time there's maybe
people roaming around. So we start stretching and Mike Cordon
and Coach Olsen walks over to me and says something
to me I don't like. I can't remember what it
was now, but it was something that to the to
the effect of why I didn't play it, and I
(12:14):
really took exception to me and we got into it
and before the guys could cool me down, I was
already gone. And Coach says, well, get out of here.
Give your stuff to the manager, and don't come back
until you think you can be a productive part of
this team. My eighteen year old, hotheaded self. I'm sure
(12:37):
they still tell this story. Um and Tucson in some way,
shape or form. Um, I take off my my practice jersey,
take off my pache sneakers that we were tented with
the test team for the original Rocky Basketball shoot. I
took off my harrachis and I threw them at Coach Olson. Speak. Now,
(12:57):
if you know Coach Olsen, if you new Coach Olsen,
very business like guy, like no nonsense, very clean, very
smooth man, very disciplined man. I don't think that particularly
went over well with him, and I pretty much started
out of the mckeel center. I threw them at his speetness.
(13:18):
Did you give them to the manager? Not a wise
bo I started out in there with socks and shorts on,
and I never saw that floor again, never no show.
So did he call you in and said you're done here?
Did he say we'll try and find another school? Did
you work through one of the assistants like what what?
(13:39):
What happened? Then? I'm sorry I didn't get that. My
reception that what you saying, so what happened next? Like
how did it? Did he call you in and you
sat with him? Did you sit with the assistance. Did
they just said, hey, you gotta find another school, Like,
but how did you actually got No, there was there,
I mean that's assistance. They talked to me and stuff
(13:59):
like that, kept in touch. But I went back home
to Vegas. Like right after that happened, I had to
brow fifty fifty dollars from Dana to take a bus
ride back to Vegas. I'm not sure if I even
pay them back, and I think I did, but I
have to ask him the next time I talked to him.
But um, yeah, So I took up. I took up
a bus back to Vegas, hit out for my parents,
(14:20):
just kind of laid low. My parents didn't know where
I was at. I was at a friend's house, and um,
I got in touch with m some schools that were
recruited me originally, and one of those schools in New
Mexico State, and I think it was McCarthy still at
the time that was coaching New Mexico State. He kind
of pushed me towards Dixie Junior College, which was in Utah,
(14:40):
which was one of the best junior colleges in the nation,
and he was like, Okay, you've had pretty much a
year without playing, why don't you go to a j
C and then we will coach you again. And then
most of the happens. So basically that's that's what happened.
And then I came back to Tucson. I went to
Coach Olson's office twice to to talk to him and
(15:01):
see about getting back on the team. And both times,
like we had to make an appointment. You couldn't just
walk into coach post office and say, hey, coach, you
have to make an appointment with the secretary. You had
to you know, put in that time. And both appointments,
he he didn't show up. He wasn't there. So I
took that as a sign like okay, and it wasn't
meant to be. And I just focused on going school
(15:22):
and finished up stall in school, and then I transmitt.
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end up in Southern Utah? Um? Yeah, that was that
was interesting. Because actually something you talked everything proved me. Um.
So the U talk is. Senior City is about fifty
fifty miles away from Dixie in St. George, Utah. And
I was getting hit hard by all those schools. Day
did it recruited me. I had a pretty solid season
(19:02):
at Dixie. We were we were a very good team
and a lot of the one talent. So I was
getting hit hard and I was making my my my
official visits and I think I had one of schedule
for Rake Forest, and I had one for New Mexico State,
Arizona State, and I think Long Beach State at the time,
(19:24):
and I had one one trip left that wasn't built.
So a friend of mine played on the basketball tim
I'm sorry the football team at Southern Utah and I
went up there for spring game. For the spring football game,
he told me, Hey, big party here after the game.
Why don't you stay me? College student broke is I
(19:44):
don't know what. I didn't have enough money for a hotel.
So I ran into coach Evans. Coach Bill Evantts was
a coach at the time, and I ran into him
at this at the game and I said, hey, coach,
I got one official visit left, you get me a
hotel to route to night, I'll take my last official visit.
Here he's his draw drops. He pulls out with a
(20:06):
big you know, the big motor roll of gray. Uh.
Cell phone with the black antenna. Uh and uh. He
makes a couple of phone calls and then then he
organizes a hotel for me and I go to the party,
have a great tale of the party. Next morning, comes
to the the official part and yeah, and I really loved
(20:26):
what he what he had to tell me. I mean
he was also on the fly for him too, because
they never recruited me because they thought they had no chance.
And the key for me going into Sudden Utah was
I had a kind of a family in Dixie that
kind of took care of me and really helped me
out a lot. And the mom she told me, Hey, Sean,
(20:48):
there's nothing wrong with being a big fish in a
small part. That phrase was the start of me deciding
to go to the Sudden Utah. And I thought about
it the whole night. At my last night there, the
assistant coach are giving me the whole paperwork, the letter
of intent in the nice folder and everything. UM said, yeah,
(21:09):
you might want to look in there. Those letter in Tennessee,
and I called my Utah mom and talked to her.
I don't know, two o'clock in the morning, and I toltally,
I really like what I saw, and I was afraid
to go to another big college and lose two more years.
And and she told me that phrase again. And about
(21:31):
an hour later, like three o'clock in the morning, I
signed the letter of intent. Coach comes knocking on my
door early in the morning, go to breakfast. I hand
him the envelope or the folder and said, hey, you
might want to look in there now. He looks in
sees it gives me a big hug and the rest
of history Hall of fame. When you get that, you
get down playing a certain time, you have a couple
(21:53):
of really good years. Right, what how the process begin?
Because it's a we know about your your book, um
in terms of playing overseas well, I had the unlock that.
Of course, this what happened the summer of nineteen and
(22:13):
Via goes on lockout first time ever. So they are
what the dreams of of going UM, going NBA route,
going to the I was slated to playing a rocking
moutin review with the Jazz UM. I had some some
scouts looking at me, but I wasn't gonna get dracked,
and I was realistic about that. Um, so I knew
it was just gonna be a free agent rount. But
of course everything goes locked down, No Rocky Mountain Review,
(22:36):
nothing's going I had an agent, and the Italian agent
at the time, Massimo result who um said okay, look,
well I can get to a contract in Italy. Got
got me a deal in in Italy, um and um.
But then they wanted to stall because they wanted to
see how long the lockout would go. Of course, if
(22:57):
they can get a fringe MINBA guy rather than a
rather than an unproven college guy. Of course, so they
kept me on hold for about two weeks. And I
am a very impatient person by nature. So these two
weeks go by and it's madness, and I tell my agent, look,
get me any job you can get me. I just
(23:18):
want to play. I don't care about money, and the
money that was being offered from this time team was
very decent. So I said, hey, look just give me something,
and he tells me, okay, look this is this team
in Austria. The money is horrible one thousand two D
absolutely peanuts compared to what I would have made it.
And he says, they've been calling. They're playing in the
(23:40):
European Cup, was called the Courts Cup. To the time,
He's like, you're gonna go there, You're gonna put up
good numbers, and then you're gonna play in in the
European Cup. You're gonna put up good numbers, and it's
gonna be easy for me to get you a job
in Italy, your Spain, wherever the next year. So I said, okay, bet,
let's do it. I fled Offstrio. Don't know where the
hell I'm going. I'm thinking I'm playing in the It's
(24:02):
not a beginning where I'm going. It's a captain Burg,
which is a very small town about two hours from
But everything goes according to plan. I start putting them
really good numbers. I'm playing really well. We're winning. We're
eleven and one. We were playing in the Courts Cup.
Um I played up, played good stats in the Courts Cup.
The games we played. Then comes the moment that changed everything.
(24:25):
I broke my leg in a game and that just
changed my whole career and how it went after that
it happens. That's the way it is. Well, so we
broke your leg? Was it like Paul George thing was?
It's just like a stress fractor? Like what was close?
It was? It was what I know now and back
(24:45):
then you have to realize this is the dinosaur age
of European basketball. There was the training facilities, the medic
medical facilities. Everything was a lot different now. So, um,
what actually happened was two weeks before two weeks p
um in practice, Um, some guys fell on my leg
and I had now I know I had a heroline fraction,
(25:07):
but the doctors didn't see it. So um, I kept playing,
keept practicing. We were running up hills, we were running
on concrete. It was crazy, and my leg got worse.
It was swollen, it was hurting. But of course, as
an American, as a foreign player, you don't want to
you don want showing signs of weakness. So I just
(25:28):
kept pushing through. I said, okay, the doctor tells me,
I'm I'm good, I'm good, icing it up, everything's okay
for me, and then um, yeah, it gets considerably worse
over the two weeks, but I keep playing. And then
we were on a World Game and I stole the
ball at half court, took my two steps right left,
will jump off my left leg and it just snaps
(25:50):
and it was basically a compound fraction. Was a pretty
pretty bad break and that was to change the trajector
read of my career. Okay, so so what happened then? Then? Um, okay,
so you know you've played overseas, you know what's how
it is. You've got the contract and says that you're
if you are injured for longer than a period of
(26:13):
probably six eight weeks, they put a bandit on you.
They ship your home, especially back in the nine so
and this is a small club in Australia, they don't
have a lot of one, so I was totally expecting
to be on the first thing smoking after. After I
break my leg, we take the the ambulance back to
my my talent. The team doctor operates right away and
(26:35):
the next morning I'm in the hospital and I'm just devastating.
I don't know what's going on. My UM coach, who
was also the son of the president, comes into the
comes into the hospital room and he says, look, we
like what you what you did here, We like he
as a person, Um, we're gonna offer a contract for
(26:57):
the next season, same conditions is this season. Uh, the
only thing is you have to stay here, you have
to rehab, you have to um stay here the whole
whole year. You have to totally be ready to be
fit for the start of next season. So I'm thinking,
I'm sitting in the hospital and I'm thinking, hey, I'm
making one tho two hundred months. I made so two
(27:18):
months salary two thousand, four hundred dollars. I spent probably
about half of that already. If I go home, I
have to pay for rehab for myself. I have to
pay for doctor bills by myself. And I didn't have
that kind of money, so it was easy for me.
It was like, hey, give me the contract, sign on
the dotted line. I'm back for the next year and
(27:40):
then and I mean, I was a very generous deal
from the from the team. My agent had something to
do it that as well. But that was something that
you don't hear about regularly in European basket. Um, okay,
so how long till you're back? Um? I started the
next season on time. I rehab like crazy. It was
(28:02):
a crazy situation, but UM, I was back, but I
would say I was probably back at about my normal self.
I wasn't totally fit at all. Um and then um,
I had an up and down season, really poor for
an American because I was limping out. I lost my
explosiveness and yeah, and so the code, the coach and
(28:24):
the team. I played a horrible season for for an American,
and I knew it was gonna be hard for me
to to to get a job with stats like fifteen
points a game and coming down the Austria. Right. So
my my agent was also of the same opinion. So
they came and they said, hey, look, we see that
you're still fighting your injury. Um, we're gonna offer you
(28:45):
another contract for two more years. Um, we'll get you
fit everything. And that's how I ended up staying in
Capitburg for for a total of four years before I
before I left and went to another team. Did you
learn the language? Yes, I speak so in German. Did
you did you do that just by you know, submersion
(29:05):
technique or did you actually take a class or a teacher.
I've never taken a German course in my life. I
actually had a lot of down time after I broke
my legs, and I was watching a lot of the Simpsons.
I was a huge Simpsons man, and uh, I knew
all the episodes from back home. But in in Austria
they have German TV and they don't they don't do subtitles.
(29:27):
So I was watching the Simpsons and I knew what
they were saying, and that's how I was piecing together
how how to learn German. And of course then I
had a girlfriend were talking in German, and you just
I'm pretty good with languages, so I was able to
pick it up pretty pretty quickly. Okay, so you're there
four years, I mean that team for four years and
one more year at another another team in Austria. Okay, uh,
(29:50):
when did you leave Austria? After my fifth season, I
got the Austrian citizenship, I changed my citizenship. I'm now
an Austrian citizen. I no longer American citizen and all
I don't have dual citizenship at all. That was not allowed,
and then it was possible for me to of course
earn more money UM as a as a European player.
So for for for the listeners that don't know, if
(30:13):
you have a passport, you were able to play in
a European country as a home guy and not as
a former So basically I could play as an American
but not taking American spot, which we need more valuable.
So I went to the Frances into this in two thousands.
You went to France, right right. I went to France
in the second division in France, right outside of Paris
(30:34):
for that first year. What was the experience of playing
in France as opposed to playing in in Austria. Uh,
night and day. Um. The league, even though it was
second league, was very competitive, very physical. Um, and I
guess I wasn't really used to it anymore. And UM,
I didn't play the greatest season. Then we we ended
(30:55):
up going on a losing street because I was I
think I was the highest paid player on the team. UM.
I got fired, I got let go, and UM I
went to Portugal to finish the season, I think the
last two or three months of the sea. And what
was port like, Um? Pretty pretty nice. I love living there.
And that led to me that resigning in Portugal on
(31:19):
another team, UM than the one that I ended the
previous season with. I played in Cavin Madeira. It's Ian
and warm weather, great great city or great um little
Isla and I played there for one season. Now still
in total you played thirteen years. Yeah, your last season
was where in Germany and with whom I had come.
(31:45):
I was in the twilight of my career and um,
I knew I only had one or two more years
that I only wanted to play basically until I was
about thirty five. That was my my vision, because I
wanted to start coaching. So I went to uh small
city called Viena in the east of Germany, and they
weren't the second league. So I was thinking, okay, one
(32:06):
two years, MAXI movement, I'm done. And this team was.
We were over achievers. We no one expected us to
to to win the promotion to the first league, but
we didn't. So the team, of course wanted to keep
the team together and I stayed to the first league
season in the Buddhis league, in the top league in Germany.
(32:27):
That year was the strangest year of my life as
as far as my career lose. So we moved up
into the first league. We had no money. We had
we were the low by far the lowest budget team.
We were just kind of happy to be there current
and I knew that that was gonna be my last season.
I was supposed to come onto the coaching staff the
(32:48):
next season. This is gonna be my last hurrah, one
last year First League, and then I was going to
go into coaching. Turns out we started and the team
fired the head coach. But before they fired the head coach,
they approached me to take over as coach. As head coach,
so I am a player. Halfway through the season, we
(33:10):
won two or two games and they come and tell me, hey,
we want you to take over as coach. I'm like, yeah,
what about what about beyond No, we're gonna fire. I
was like, no, not doing it. That's that's just bad
caring right here. No. Not two weeks go by, they
badgered me. They badge me. I have a conversation with
(33:30):
my brother. He says, look, Sewan, you want to coach.
You can do that with no pressure. Nobody expects you
to turn the team around and stay in the first League.
You can learn your your chops. You have no pressure
doing so. After I talked to my brother, I changed
my mind and I said, Okay. I had my last
(33:50):
game in in Bond and I cried buckets after that
game because it was my I knew that that was
gonna be my as game. And then they were a
turn of the keys over Tom, but no one else
really knew. And yeah, and then I went from being
a player to the head coach of the first league
(34:12):
team in Germany. What I've never heard of ever happening
ever in any country. And so we played on a
Saturday Monday morning. I was, I would say, coach with
the guys that I had just played with four a
year and a half. Crazy, not the ideal situation that
I had two weeks before. I'm out drinking with these
guys and and and party. I went to these guys
(34:33):
and now I'm telling me to Lion Sprince. Not not
exactly the best start for my career, but I would
do it all the same again because it really showed
me that's what I wanted. Um, we did you guys
get better? Where else? With your coach? I love? I
can say we won three games? That was two. That
was one more than the previous coach had, So for me,
(34:55):
it was a success. And we we got relegated. We
were terrible. We we did you play funny? You should ask.
I have one clip on YouTube that is me having
to sell myself in during a game because we had
we had some injuries during towards the end of the year,
has injuries, we had some suspensions. A guy got caught
(35:17):
um smoking weed got kicked off the team, so we
only had like nine players. I had to trade in
the suit that I had wearing the a couple of
games before, and I had to stand on the sideline
in my uniform, and I had to be listed as
a player even though I was in the coach. So
(35:38):
we had a game against Braydmafan and I had to
sell myself in because it was foal trouble. I ended
up hitting a wild three quarter court shot at the
buzzer to put us in over time. And that is
my warning clip on on YouTube. Mike. Remember, I don't
know if you never remember this. When we were kids,
Mike done Ley did that he's to coach to the busy.
(35:59):
I had lunch injuries and so he played. He played
one night that had had to be the coolest and
weirdest thing. Um best city in Austria, in Austria, basketball
will just not overall, no overall, give me one place
you have to go to go. Oh, you gotta go
(36:20):
to the end is Yan is a great city's a
lot of a lot of cultural a lot of older culture,
but it's it's a it's a fantastic city. The best
thing to eat in Austria. Wow. Uh, there's a there's
a thing called Forgotten souper. It's a soup and what
you have to imagine it's a it's it's uh like
a pancake that they cut into strips and put it
(36:42):
in like a h a beef beef ball. It's not
pancake like syrup or you know that that's a weird
thing to get in your head. But it's a it's
actually a really good So that's that's one of my
favorite things. From the best, best, best place to go
visit you have to a visit in Germany. Berlin, oh,
(37:03):
by far is probably my favorite, my my favorite European city.
I love living in Paris, but but Berlin is off
the change. That's going to eat in Germany. Uh, you
gotta get you gotta get a sausage with with salur
krown and have a big, big Viking beer. Um. Okay,
(37:28):
you mentioned Paris. Um coolest place to go and eat
in Paris. Oh it's been a minute. Um I think
any anywhere along Sean's shams is to just sit out,
have a call for you croissant, and just people watch
estimating chest the ultimate. Okay, So, so you decided to
(37:48):
write a book about the entirety of the experience. When
did the first one of the idea come to your mind? Um?
The idea came probably sometime after I book My leg
and I went through that experience because it wasn't the
best experience in total for me. Um. But I I've
always liked to write, but I never thought about doing
(38:09):
anything until years later. I think I was playing in
England at the time, and that's that's when I started.
That's probably about fifteen years ago, something like maybe a
little bit more than fifteen years ago. And I actually
wrote it and then but I tried to get it published,
and back then there was no self publishing. I couldn't
get it published. It's a it's a niche book. That's
that's okay. Um, But I couldn't get a publish BacT
(38:31):
and so I pretty much just handed it out to
people that I thought needed the information. Um. And then
um Um, I had more time on my hands and
I refurbished it, updated it, my best friend told me, Hey,
you got to get that out there. There's information in
there for people, um that that can help people. So
(38:52):
that's that's my main goal with this book is just
to help people and help them navigate, especially their first
year overseas, because that's a really key to how the
rest of your career will go. So how do you
determine who you think should represent him as an agent? UM,
that's a that's a personal thing. I think I was
(39:12):
lucky enough that I had coming out of college. I
had like eight or nine agents to choose from. But
a lot of guys that play overseas they don't have
that luxury, so they're having to search actively search for
for an agent. And I think that's for the majority
of guys that they are not your lead guys that
are not guys that are going from deep to Greece
(39:32):
or you know, big time guys. It's hard to find
an agent because agents have, of course scalp and if
they do not scout you, they probably won't want to
hire you. Um. So they want to make money and
if they think they can make the money, then then
they'll scout you. If not, then the fault will crack.
So That's why my book was important for me to
(39:54):
get the information out there that people can find their
own agent. It's going to take a lot of banging
on rules, writing emails, calling, a lot of rejection, but
it's possible, and you basically have to find a happy
medium between having an agent that you trust um or
(40:15):
and that you actually like. And you really don't know
if you have a good agent until one of two
things happens. You need a job, so if you can
get you a job, but more importantly, if something bad happens,
if you break your leg, if you get fired, that's
when you though if you've got a good agent amount right, Um,
(40:39):
how hey, then it's easier now, right because I mean,
like we can connect your here in Germany the States.
You can Netflix, you can Amazon, you can Apple TV,
you can do all that stuff. But there still is
you're in a foreign country and a lot of guys
they think they've been away from home because I wentoy
(40:59):
to school, but it's a completely different. Um in two
thousand and twenty one, how do you manage the difference
in culture and missing everything that is your normal life? Well,
guys these days have like you said, there there's Netflix,
there is Skype, there is iPhone message, there is um
(41:22):
you can you can face time with people. So it's
it's a lot easier to keep in touch. I remember
when I was my first phone bill when I got
to all she was six hundred fifty dollars because I
was just constantly on the phone. And so these days
it's much easier to stay in contact. But of course
you're gonna miss home, You're gonna miss you, your family
back home, You're gonna miss things like that. Um, But
(41:43):
these days it's it's just way easier to keep in
touch and two two to keep some kind of bond
that it was in nine New five when UM you
mentioned and I thought, I think this is just kind
of an interesting part is um you mentioned that your
(42:04):
agent convinced you to take less money, not weight on
the Italian team and take like no money in Australia
to put up numbers. And I actually think that's great advice.
There's a limit there, right, how little you'll play for
how do you balance it, like if you were to
advise somebody versus because I think a lot of these
guys are like, look, I want to make six figures.
I gotta be in a big club. Like my first
club was this big club in Russia, and I split
(42:25):
time and then they would do the thing where and
I was playing as an American, so we get a
big lead and the Americans that come out right and
because they wanted their guys to play, and it hurt
my hurt my numbers. So if I could redo it,
Germany would have been great, like play, put up numbers
and grow from there. But how do you how do
you balance and what's what's the advice on what your
first job should be like? Well, I mean it all
(42:48):
depends a lot on how respecting jurk agent is, how
how how they do business. If you're one of the
guys that that is a potential, you'rely player, you have
a team, move advisors, you have we have the best
of the best working for My thing is the guys
that don't make a hundred thousand a year or two
hundred thousand years, three hundred thousand, the guys that are
(43:10):
making five thousand a month, the guys that are making
one thousand two ars their month, that's that's a hard
that's a hard thing. So the guys that are not
making a huge amount of money, sometimes they have to
take what they can get. It's not that they might
not have a lot of choices, and you just have
to make the best of the situation. Now, if you
are one of those guys that has a high powered
(43:31):
agent and you're getting that high powered job, or you
have these offers that are that are coming into you
for a lot of money, then it's up to you
to figure out what's important to you. And this is
where I think today it's much easier than when I
was coming up. When I was coming out, I had
to look and it's I had to actually go to
a library and looking at an encyclopedia to find any
(43:53):
information about most That's what I did, but it wasn't
telling me very much right, especially out about basketball. But
to these guys can jump online and they can check stats,
They can check numbers. They can see how many Americans
were there at the team, how many left? Um. You
can you can look on yourro basket and see why
that person left. You can. You can really investigate these
teams just as just as they investigate you. So I
(44:16):
think it's important for for these guys to really look
into the offers, look into the teams, see where they rank.
What is your goal. Is your goal only to collect
your money stashed away or is it to have a
long career where maybe take a step back to have
(44:36):
a longer career. It's everybody's individual choice. But I think
the most important thing is that you definitely have to
research these offers, these teams, these coaches, these general managers,
and see what's out there online. It might be able
to help you maneuver through what could be a make
a break season. When was the last time you seriously
(44:57):
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(47:30):
the book comes out right, it's available and you can
get anywhere. Is there anything you felt like? Man, I
wish you would put this in there? Um No, I
for for the market that that I'm trying to get at.
I think I got everything in there. I was this big,
This book was so long in the making, And I
(47:52):
mean that's why you're you're talking about when you're talking
about when you first broke your leg. That's years ago,
five years ago, and UM, so a lot of a
lot of changed, but a lot hasn't changed. That that's
what really, that's what really UM helped me to refurbish
it because there's a lot of things that I have
(48:13):
in the book is the same as there's there's still
dispeeches about contracts, there's still shady agents, there's still shady teams.
There's a lot of things that that these first especially
the first few players who have to deal with that.
I hope that this book can help them with um
and having their hands. But from the people that have
already read it, even vets and told hey, I know it.
(48:36):
So there's nothing that I probably would have added. UM,
I just wish I had I had done it soon.
I wish I had really done it sooner, I think
when I when I think back, it was you know,
especially when you're young, you're not really demanding. You know
that you're not, and you're just kind of like you're
just so happy to fact group the problem happy, right
(48:56):
that you're like, oh, you give me a car or whatever,
like yeah, the cars, Like I would you have a
card to piece of ship. I remember when I played
in Israel, Corey cars my teammate and Corey towards a
c L. So we brought out Radrian Peterson is one
of my closest friends to play with him in college.
But you know, because Corey had played there so long
because he was hurt, like didn't have an extra apartment.
(49:18):
So I'm like, well, I can stay with me, right.
I was like just married, uh and you know my wife.
We all went to school together, so it was cool.
But and then then it was like, all right, what
are you gonna get We're all just two nights where
we should have been like dud when he hits the ground,
he should have an apartment. He should happen, right, But
how do you It's really hard to manage when our
culture is different than their culture. You don't know people.
(49:41):
You do need an agent that handles all that stuff,
but you don't want to be a dick, right, So
there's a lot. There's a lot too. It's really hard.
It's a lot to do with being able to adapt
to certain situations, but at the same time not to
be a push. There has to be a healthy balance
between between yes, I'm excited to be I'm willing to
be flexible, I'm willing to adapt because Europe is not
(50:04):
adapting to you. You have to adapt to Europe. And
so I think there's a lot of adaptability. And that's
maybe why I had such a war career, because I
was able at that. But at the same time, you
can't be a pusholder. If I have to look back
to when I broke my leg, I didn't know I
can get a second page. I didn't know why I could.
I could, uh, the very first time I went to
(50:25):
the hospital and they didn't see the hairline fracture. I
could have sat for two weeks and then I would
have been fine. But I didn't know I could go
see another doctor. And and that's part of the reason
why I want the book to explain these things that
if these young guys need to know, and you learned
the hard way and you want them I learned. The
problem is that, like I don't know how many guys
(50:45):
you can pick up and really really read it. I
guess it's on book on tape as well. Right now,
did you have the book on Can you can do
the audible thing where you can actually listen to it
as well? Not yet, but that's I have it as
an e book. It's also as a people back. I
realized it's that's not my no, but it's it's like
it's like a guy like you know exactly. And and
(51:07):
look at the people that listen to this pod. We
it's a couple hundred thousand people downloaded, but a lot
of them are basketball people and college basketball coaches and
assistant coaches and high school coaches. And all they gotta
do is say, hey, get this book, download and read
it or by the way, listen to it. Even you're
on your way your first job. You know this is
these are the things that that you should you should know,
you should make. Um. I said. The last thing, I lied,
(51:29):
best player you've ever played against? And you I don't
have to know who it is because sometimes you play
against you like I've never heard of that dude, and
he just gave me thirty Um. Uh what is his name?
And what's the Texas tech? I played against him in Germany. Uh.
I was just talking about him the other day and
now I can't remember this. After jess Gerald, he absolutely
(51:54):
destroyed I would say that's the only guy where I
was really like, I had no chance against this guy.
He just bullied me. He the two times we played
against against him that that year. We was in Bamberg
and I was in Oldenburg. He just totally dispointed and um,
(52:14):
I mean I played against a really good one to play.
That was the one guy where I was just like
the crazy ones where you play against the guy who
high school early college like they were super highly touted
and then you're like, he sucks. Now, like what happened.
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna name names. I was
in there's the guy who, Um, he gave it to
(52:36):
me in high school. I'm not gonna lie gave me
forty in high school. High school and he was at
six five point guard and he was super highly decorated
and he had a kind of mere courier but fairly
successful like college career. And I remember like my my
last gig was was on a pro B team filling
in in France Claremont for Rome, and we played against
(52:57):
I remember like we watched film and I was like
that was like and I was watching He's all right,
and I played against him. What happened? Well, you ever
had one of those where you're like, the guy was
super highly talented, you play me a good Yes, I
mean I played against a former high school. I'm not
also not going to name the name, but I played
(53:18):
up against you got a name, you're not in the meeting?
You didn't did you give it to no Um? But
he was. He was a highly touted guy. And I
played against him in the European Cup game and and
he was playing in Paristeria Athens, and it was just
(53:38):
like Wow, this guy played in the league and he
was a little bit older than me. He was a
little bit older than me. Carry. I remember remember like,
did Harry the Hair play? I remember Carry the Hair
playing once and I was like, what do you play?
The Hall? Yeah, he played, but he was like a
high first round pick of the Clippers. I remember playing
against some or she's like, oh yeah, just been a
(54:00):
There's a lot of it, honestly, is because guys get
to that part of their career and they've played the
NBA and they're just heart can't do it. You just
can't do it right. If you played in a big
school where it's going to sell out, it's really hard.
And then some guys played a big school and play
in the NBA. Then you come to some locker room
where dudes are spoken outside located locker and you just
if your heart ain't in it, you just get to
(54:22):
like it doesn't matter how good a player you are,
just hearts on it. So a lot of times it's
not even the guy, it's just where they are. The
mental space where they are is not healthy being successful exactly. Okay,
So you've coached, you've played, you've written a book. Um,
you're you're not fifty years old, and the game has
been good to you. You have this long resume. What
(54:44):
in five years when I check in with you, what
are you gonna be doing? Hopefully I love my job.
I'm a educator at a private school here in Germany,
and I love my job. I'll be still working there.
Hopefully I will have written my by the my third book,
and hopefully those three books will help athletes. That's my
(55:06):
that's my. So you you, but you, you teach not athletes.
You teach regular students. Yes, I teach fith grain, grain
and no idea who I was or what I did.
They all know I played basketball, but for them, I
missed them. And I'm the greatest thing since peanut, butter
and Joe. What subject? You teach? English? That's amazing. So
(55:30):
in your brain when you think you. Do you think
in German or do you think in English? Both? My
wife is half Greek and half German. Our kids are
growing up by lingual. Um. I speak quite a bit
of German. Um. We watched TV and German. I watched
Netflix in German because my wife hates to watch English
(55:50):
stuff with me because I was corrected. Um. But yeah,
I think in both. I also dream in German. Really yeah, weird? Yeah,
it's good. Game? Is that big and Jeremy? Yes? Do
you like it? Yes? I don't. I liked it for
the social aspect aspects of the social themes um, the
(56:14):
gory stuff, Okay, I don't understand why. It's really really
like my I have a twelve year old son and
he's like, he watched it before I did, and he's like,
he was like, Dad, you gotta watch frid Game. It's awesome.
So I'm watching, like, oh my god, my phoold wants
just like, yeah, I know, the gory stuff it was okay,
(56:36):
But I love the old man and that the whole
social people around him. How we treat old people? How
how you know the social aspects of the movie. I
really enjoyed the goory stuff, Okay, but I don't understand
why it's the biggest Netflix show of all time. But okay,
I don't either. It's it's interesting, right, Like you would
(56:57):
have thought whatever the biggest netflixce would have been last
year when everybody was was lockedout? What was what was
lockdown like for you guys? Uh in Germany was strict?
It was. I mean it's still strict here. It's still
a lot of a lot of we have to wear
masks a lot. It's there's still a lot going on.
Even in my school, it's we have to we have
to sit in with medicine. What is the feeling like
(57:18):
when when the story comes to German TV like Kyrie Irving,
I don't want to do the bat and the vac's mandate.
How does that land in in in their culture? It's
here because everything has been so strict. We when I
say we, I'm European, I came. I've been in Europe
(57:39):
longer than I've lived in America, So I'm pretty much
a European guy. Now. Um, we see things different and
I just a small thing on small take on Kyrie.
I think it's everybody's decision. You've got a job. If
your job says you have to do it, and you
decide not to do it, you have to live with
the consequences. And I guess that's what he's lived. He's
he's ready to do We'll see how it plays out.
(58:01):
But um, I mean, I'm vaccinating myself. But from me
it was a choice, not from my school, my job.
It was just I wouldn't I would like to protect
other people, but everybody has their own thing. But see,
I thought that's kind of the that's the whole theme
that is, like, it's it's the opposite Kyrie's way of
looking at it is, Hey, this is about me and
(58:23):
my personal freedoms, but you shouldn't call me selfish for it.
On the other hand, the whole reason you do it
because he's not gonna get sick from COVID, you know not,
Wood is protecting everybody else and protecting it from metamorphosizing
into something far worse whatever. So I actually think it's
counter to his thought, but a part of it is
also it's Kyrie, right, He's so yeah, he's different, he's different,
(58:44):
but he's also one of those guys like, look, I'm
a contrarian by nature, but like that gets the point
you're like, dude, you're just being a contrarian to be
a contrarian, and I don't think he has the equity
to cash in, you know, yeah, I think that would
that that would be the you my my main issue. Um,
if there was one thing you wish you knew when
(59:07):
you are coming out of college that you know now,
it would it be as well as basketball is concerned,
basketball life. Um, I would have I would have told
my younger self to enjoy the moment of living in
Europe a little bit more than I did. Right at
the beginning. I didn't really enjoy it the way I
(59:29):
should have until muchly after I changed my citizenship and
stuff like that. It's a good one. Okay, Well, we're
gonna tout the book. I really appreciate you spent some
time with us. You really appreciate awesome. I appreciate you
reaching out to me as well, Like that's those the
kind of dudes that I relate to relate to all
your stories. I can't wait to read the book myself.
(59:49):
Get that. I'm gonna send it to you. You send
you you're addressing, I'll send it to great. I will
read it. I got the Patriots book. I'm reading that.
I'm gonna read that. I'm read that, but I got you.
It doesn't matter. I really appreciate your time and get
that back right, No problem, I appreciate I appreciate you
having me on, say Sean, no problem, all right, thanks
(01:00:10):
Sean for joining for joining me. It's Doug Gottlieb here
on the All Ball Podcast. Reminder of the Doug Gottlieb
Show is daily three to six Eastern, twelve to three
Pacific on the I Heart Radio app on Fox Sports Radio,
Fox Sports Radio dot com or serious xm uh to
sev or two oh three a reminder, download, rate, review,
write a review. Okay, check this the out Share with
(01:00:31):
a friend. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is all ball. Okay,
(01:00:53):
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