In this episode, Doug is joined by agent Todd Ramasar discusses his hoops upbringing in inland Southern California, why he chose to walk on at UCLA, the surprising way he ended up representing Baron Davis, what sold him about an unknown Pascal Siakam, what it was like negotiating against Isiah Thomas as an inexperienced young agent, and his plans over the next decade. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts!
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(01:45):
welcome in? I'm go and this is all ball. Um
quick note, we are going to have a summer league
recap all ball for you coming up. I have a
litany of really good and interesting guests and uh, you know,
we've we've diverged at some point from always basketball. We
had Maurice Clarette. If you missed all three parts of that,
(02:06):
it was pretty amazing stuff. This week's all ball. I
think you're really gonna like because I love interesting, brilliant people,
and I really like people that love the sport that
you love. But also sometimes you're not good enough to
always play it right, but you can still find an
incredible career in it. Ty Tyder Amazar is an amazing story, right,
(02:28):
son of immigrants. He grew up for the most part
in um in Norco, California. He'll tell you what Norco
was like forty years ago. But he grew up in
like kind of farm country just outside of Los Angeles,
really near Chino Hills where the Ball brothers grew up.
And became a very good basketball player. But even though
he had good grades, wasn't recruited a high level walked
(02:49):
on to u c l A, got a scholar. I
don't want to give away the whole story anyway, Um,
how do you become the youngest agent in NBA history?
How did he? Where the relationships come from? What are
his thoughts and agents running teams? What's it like to
get fired as a representative of a player? All of
that stuff is in here, plus some some awesome stories
(03:10):
about playing basketball at u c l A. Alright, I
think you'll like it. By the way, if you like
my stuff, you can listen to the Doug Out Live
Show daily three to six Eastern twelve three Pacific on
the I Heart Radio app or on Fox Sports Radio
dot com. Or you can also download that podcast at
your at your discretion. All right, without further ado, here's
(03:30):
superstar agent Dodd ramazar Um Todd when you he became
a certified agent twenty four years old, which sounds really young,
but I mean one of the things that's interesting about
your basketball life was you're really young when you graduated
high school. Let's go back. Okay, so you grew up
in Norco. Now, for people who don't know where dorc goes,
(03:53):
it's really close to Chino Hills. But again we're talking
about Dorco twenty years ago, ago, years ago. Even now
you drive into Norcot US day. Right. How does an
immigrant family um from the West Indies, How did you guys? Yeah,
so I have an older brother, Dougie. He was born
(04:14):
in New York. My parents, Um, my parents are from
two different countries, Haiti and British Guyana. So they met
in New York. My dad was in the telephone company.
My mother was a r N and uh my dad
got a transfer request from the telephone company. So it
was either Florida or California. And I just found this
(04:34):
out recently from my mom. She had dreams in California.
She had never been so sight unseen. She's like, we're
going to California. So we ended up in uh, you know,
I was born in Fullerton. We ended up you know,
I was born in Orange County. He lived in Orange
County until probably right before I was two years old,
and then we moved to uh, we moved to Norco
(04:55):
in nineteen I think nine. So, as you mentioned with
you being from Testin doug you know, you know, even
Annaheim Hills, that whole corridor area wasn't what it is
now or even twenty years ago. This is you know,
forty years ago almost. So it was more farm you know, farmland, cattle,
(05:16):
more of a Midwest field than anything else. Yeah. Um, so,
so your love for basketball because you played football and
you're kind of a study at football early on in
high school. But was it because your your brother played?
Like what what drew you to basketball? Yeah? It was
my It was my older brother, you know. Um I
(05:37):
got drawn to football because of my older cousin. He
was eight years older than me. This is back when
the Inland Empire didn't have too many high schools. He
played in Norco High School, which was was the powerhouse
high school, Thatton Eisenhower in the Inland Empire before Corona Centennial.
So I was always playing with older guys, my older brother,
my older cousin in football. But when my brother started
(05:59):
playing basketball at the young age, I just fell in
love with it. And then, as you know, Doug, for
us growing up in southern California, the Lakers were hot.
So my idol was magic. You know, you're you're you're
watching you're growing up in southern California. You know, the
Lakers were in what the finals nine out of eleven
years or ten years. I mean, it's hard not to
love basketball. So that's where my affinity for the game grew,
(06:23):
and I would emulate I would try to emulate magic
on the on the court. It is interesting, right that
your your first big client with Barren, Who's like, who's
just a mini magic, right, like a way more athletic magic.
That was that was you. Baron reminded everybody. I've just
disabout to control a game. And the truth is Baron's
not really old enough. I mean, I know he played
against them at the Men's jim so, you know, but
(06:46):
not really old enough to I've experienced the real magic.
There is an interesting kind of full circle to it. Okay, so, um,
you're playing high school basketball. But you went to j
W North. How far And for people who don't know
j W North is that's Reggie Miller right, No, no, no, Doug.
Reggie went to Riverside Poly. Sorry. Uh. Quincy Brewer I
(07:08):
think was the was right before you. He was like
a two three combo score. J Doub always had dudes, right,
Corey Benjamin what heym ballers right like that was in
the Empire was producing some dudes back then. Um Keith
(07:29):
and Horne was was wasn't that for his diamond bar? Yea?
I remember you had you had I'll go through a
really quick one team that the one team had four
starters in the Pac ten on it on that j
W North teams. Quincy board, I went to a s U.
Ed Grave. I ended up at now Sonny Benjamin at
Oregon State and then Corey Benjamin as well, and then
(07:51):
we were all the generation right after. But they went
to UH eight finals, c IF Southern Section finals in
a row. Yeah what Trayvon Carmichael was right, yeah, Sean,
what happened to him? He was? He was, I mean,
we have to do where the world because Traylon Carmichael.
(08:12):
We I remember we went to a B C. D
and ninety four and he was three and he was
on the team. We had never heard of this dude
and he was like six four, looked like a football player.
He was asked he was billed deep duncan dudes. The
guy was I swear the guy was jumping off with
two feet from free throw lining games. It seems like
(08:32):
uh and him and Corey were him Coorey and and
Jamal Slaughter were teammates at Fontana after Corey transferred from
North but talented team. Yeah. Hi, it was pretty legit
back then. Um okay, so so um what education I
was a huge in your in your household? Now? Is that?
(08:55):
Did your parents come home and and you know, make
you do work? Like? How was Why was action so
such an important part of your upgrade? I think, you know,
I would say this is probably the immigrant mentality overall.
It's like, you know, everyone I think that tends to
immigrate to the US is for a better way of life,
not just for themselves but for their kids. And so
(09:17):
like you know, like a lot of immigrant families is, hey,
you're gonna be a doctor or a lawyer, so you know,
my brother's maybe or maybe if you're if you like
this Jewish families, doctor lawyer, and if you got you
got nothing going for your account, right exactly, and and
maybe that's change are evolved. Now I got I got
(09:38):
some Indian buddies or they're like, yeah, Todd, it was
a doctor, attorney or engineer, and now it's like, okay,
entertainment and entertainment, executive other things. But for us, it's
that's that's the route we took. My brothers owns his
own practice. He's a chiropractor. Technically, I guess you could
say a doctor. He went that route. I know, right,
(10:00):
I'm trying to do him. Here's here's the here's the
here's the thing with the chiropractic. Okay, is not a doctor.
Doctor is somebody gets sick on a plane. Okay, So
asbody gets sick on a plane and he says, there
a doctor here like chiropractics, like yeah, I got you right.
On the other hand, on the other hand, let's be
honest in terms of daily health and usefulness. Oh, when
(10:20):
you got a rib out or you're not right, there's
nobody in the world you'd rather have than a chiropractor.
Like on your on yourself beauty of having a chiropractor
in the family. You wake up with the stiff knacker
has been a long road trip ten minutes away. I
go see him, Okay. And then for me it was,
you know, I went to I ended up leaving law school,
(10:42):
but I went to I went to law school. That
was it was kind of you know, for me, that
was the path that was going to pursue, but not
use my law degree to be say just a traditional
uh lawyer from the sense of you know, corporate law
or something like that. It was always in pursuing as
an agent. So, um, take me through the decision to
(11:05):
go to u c. L A. What was what was
it like? This is still Herrick right. They were they
were rolling, I mean about me. I'm the year before
and and I turned them down. And they take Brandon
oh Man, what's the kid's name? He was from Oklahoma,
you know, Um oh Man, Brandon, what's the news name?
(11:27):
He was a sophomore when you were a freshman. We
had we had we had for hum we had um.
Now he's a backup blackyard Brandon Lloyd. So so they
so Stephon Marbury was the guy everybody wanted, and I
was like the fallback guy and my sister was a
(11:48):
cheerlider there. A brother went there, and then I turned down.
I got to Notre Dame and then they win the
national championship. I'm sitting there like, are you kidding me? Right?
Like I love U c l A Basketball, they win
the national champion What went into your decision together? I mean,
if it was just that, like for me, it was
a dream, if you for me growing up playing football
and basketball. If I was playing football, I was going
(12:09):
to USC you know, that's just what it is. And
uh for basketball, my dream since I was playing that
growing up, it was to go to u c l A.
And then so because I satisfied both things. It was
always athletics, academics. Both schools are great, right, I'm proud
to be a Brewing and it was it was. It
was a natural choice for me. But you know, I
(12:31):
I checked into school dug so young. I was seventeen.
I was a late bloomer, the top one hundred. I
ended up walking on because I got turned down some
other schools. Like that was my dream. Plus I was competitive.
I thought I could uh, I could walk on and
earned a scholarship, which I did, and I just wanted
to be part of the special class with you know,
that class out of southern California. I think we could
(12:52):
argue might have been one of the most talented classes
in Southern California, Right, Chris Burgess, Baron Davis. Uh, you
say Cotton, Kenny Bruner, um, the Collins Twins. I mean
I don't know, like like, look you go back to
not I think it's there was a class with Tracy Murray,
Don McLean, Um, Uh, I think that was Sean Mills.
(13:18):
What was in that class as well? Um? Who else was?
Who else was in that Chris Mills, I mean Chris Mills,
Chris Mills, Derek Martin, like they were all like saying
class that was I think Adam Keith was that class together?
A crazy class. Then my junior year, which is I
actually I was a late bloomer, so I stayed back
in eighth grade. So your seven team when you graduate
(13:40):
high plas nineteen when I graduate high school. But but
had a couple of your teammates Chris Johnson, Jared Henderson, right,
Toby Toby Bailey, um, had Miles Simon and had u. God,
you go through it was. That was Tony's was awesome.
(14:01):
My teammate Cameron Murray h Tracy's brother, Tracy's brother as well, Like,
there's there's been some really really so okay, so when
you first get there as a walk on, but you're
like a recruited walk on, you're not like a dude.
And my brother went there to walk on. Herrick helped
him get in and then um uh lou Lou Roe
beat lu uh what's his name? He end up transferring
(14:24):
to Clemson and playing. Now he's coach at Northern California.
I know who you're talking about. Yea, yeah, Well and
like nobody knew he was showed up and kicked his
ass to tryouts and Greg was like, I didn't make
a team, so it was better for me. And he
goes on and starts at Clemson. So so when did
Herrick give you a scholarship? Well, so Herrick got fired.
(14:46):
So my freshman year laugh, that was Lab. We were
LABS first recruiting class, right, so we were all recruited
by Romar Herrick laugh. And then then that that was
junior year. By senior year and the time we were
checking in is when all that all that happened, and
Herrick was no longer there. Romar had left and laughed
as head coach. So they componed Eric, they componed him,
(15:09):
They got him, They got a expense receipts. Come on, man,
they got anywhere else in the country that that that's
a flyer, Like that's that's a that's a give. Come on,
come on. Okay, So so you're you're a freshman, what
do you remember about how it went down? So for
people who don't remove, who have forgotten, Okay, when they
(15:30):
signed Barron, they did some I mean, frankly, some crazy
stupid ship right like his his sister worked in the
basketball office, and Herrick's son sold him as like Chevy Blazer,
I like, I don't even and and it was front
page of the l A Times and really was a
bunch of other little stuff. And then they found the
(15:50):
expense report steel and they but what was it like
for you? Like here you are seventeen year old kid
from Riverside, walk on trying to make it and all
the stuff goes down, there's a coaching change. What do
you remember about that time? Lab was my lead recruiter,
So it wasn't I didn't get caught up to be
honest in any of it. It was just Lab still.
(16:10):
You know, Harry got fired Lab coach the year prior
in which they went to the lead eight. I want
to say Johnny went down with an injury to Asternum.
There's another one. Yeah, yeah, So you know, coming in
it's like their freend, you know, for us as a
fresh off a championship in some ways in nine five
(16:31):
they made the run the year before, We're coming in
with the number one recruiting class. You know, Shae Cotton, Baron,
Earl Wattson, Rico Hyans, Moose had just transferred. You know,
I'm walking on and I'm I'm set, you know, ranked
seventy five in the country, and you know, Billy Night,
Travis Reid. We were loaded. So there was nothing but excitement.
I wasn't even thinking about that. And then, as you know, Doug,
(16:52):
you going into the men's gym, playing against Magic and
UH and doing the summer program. It was a dream
come true. I didn't think twice about it. Fox Sports
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That's k e e p s dot com, Keeps dot
com slash all ball, So you get there Um, when
did when did lad give you a schart? I'm going
into my sophomore year. What was that conversation like with
(20:23):
your parents? Um? Oh, they were a static they you know,
because I really put in a lot of work between
my freshman and sophomore year, and you know, freshman year
is an adjustment, you know, as you said, you know,
coming in a seventeen. You know, the seniors were all
the guys that won the championship as freshman, Toby j R.
Chris Johnson and of course Jolyni McCoy was there, and
(20:45):
Brandon Lloyd, and then you've got all these guys coming
from all over the country, Rico's coming from hard Grave
and St. John's prospect called Barons there Earl. You know,
so it was a diverse competitive group. I think we
walked away bloodied every day in price to So for me,
it was great. You know, I can't say I was
surprised because that was a goal, but it was great
(21:06):
to at least take that burden and and hit that
accomplishment of earning that scholarship at u c l A. Okay,
here's one of the things that I always found to
be interested, so that the national champion team had like
eleven dudes that played me. It was like something crazy
terms number of dudes that played the NBA, right, like everybody?
I mean, and honestly, Chris Johnson didn't play. But if
(21:27):
Chris Johnson was now like guys, a stretching guys, a
small ball four or five, unbelievable, perfect, perfect guy, right,
so unbelievable talented. Team wins then asked, chance, if you
guys just have dude do but and if you would
have walked into that locker room and asked, how many
you guys are going to the NBA? Everybody would have
raised their hands, right everyone? When did in your mind
(21:50):
you think like, hey, agent abably, it was probably my
my It was probably my say going into my sophomore year. Actually,
you know, I take that back, Doug, if I had
to revisit, it was probably my sophomore year I ended
up starting. But you know, we we had the number
(22:11):
one recruiting class coming in eight, followed by another number
one recruiting class Matt Barnes, Geron Rush, Ray, Young, Dan Gazer,
Restro Maiso, I mean they were loaded. Yeah, so coming in,
putting in all that work, starting for a game or
two and then not seeing the court until the end
of my sophomore year in like sporadic minutes. It was like, no,
(22:34):
that was a reality check. You know. I thought about
transferring and everything, but I was like, you know what,
why am I transferring? Yeah? I could play, but getting
this degree from u c l A. I know I'm
gonna be in southern California and I knew I wanted
to go to grad school. So at the end of
that sophomore years when I started working for ARN telling
bearing and left gon Pro. All the u c l
A guys were assigning with ARN at the time, which
(22:56):
was telling the associates, and then that was my segue
into the business. At nine, I got so many things, gosh,
and just so much stuff. Okay, I would make that.
I'd make the case Barren towards a c L on
a filthy crossover dunks on the dude um in the
n c A tournament. Um, I know we were in
the same region. I saw it. I think we're in
(23:17):
saving as I saw it happen, and um, which do
you that was still there. I've never seen somebody tear
their a c L on a more nasty play than that.
That was I tell people all the time that was
when he was when he landed, or when he jumped.
He jumped so high, Doug, and I was looking down
(23:37):
the court. He jumped so high his head was at
the rim eye level. He pulled himself up with his momentum.
I don't think Baron knew how high he was. So
it was on the landing. He put all that weight,
all his weight on one one leg when he landed,
and that's what made a pop. It wasn't It's interesting
he doesn't like me. I still don't know why we
(23:58):
haven't ever heard what we have to chopping up at
some point time. Interesting because my because my my dad
was like when I because that the year before he
when he was a senior, I was sitting out after
transfer from Notre Dame, and they basically like, look we
get Baron, we're gonna take Baron and if not, and
I was like people's second choice, Georgia Tech's second choice, Kansas.
(24:19):
I was somewhere down the line or whatever anyway, But
my dad was like, look, that's the best high school
point guard I've ever seen. He used to Gilanni Gardner
used to be the guy that he thought was the
next match Johnson and then he was like, Baron's the
best I've ever seen. Um, he still had a very
very good career, very good career. What would he have
(24:42):
been like had he not twent doug. I think baroness
was such if you really revisit that, you know, and
that's our generation when he when he tore it, that
was still at a time when the a c L surgery,
like the procedure, it could go either way like it. It
It wasn't like now we're you come back stronger, So
(25:04):
we were right there where like you know, Baron tears
it in March, he was back playing by the end
of that same year. That's the type of freaky was
a lot of people don't know this. Kobe would come
to our practices the following year Baron wasn't clear to play.
Him and Kobe are playing one on one on the
sideline and Baron's wearing this huge knee brace. So I
(25:26):
don't honestly if he if he doesn't tear it, I
think he's still the same player. Maybe maybe he's the
number one player because maybe we continue going on in
in March. But that sophomore year, he comes back and
he's healthy, you know, and he was a highlight reel
still goes number three. Well what I so if you
remember his first game back to play against US, I
(25:47):
got thrown out of the game at halftime whatever, he
flopped into a technical voul. But he wasn't he wasn't
moving right yet. He's still heavy and he had that brace.
And then but month was mother than Docember? Right, that
was November? That was December yet And yeah, if you
think about that, that's only eight months after the injury. Yeah,
(26:09):
nine months. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy even in today's standards.
I'm Thomas Bryant, that towards a c L and you
know it's eleven to twelve months until there. You know
he's fully back, is what they're protecting. Don't tell me
that I tore mine like two months ago. I just
got my surgery two weeks ago. But I'm too old
to make it. I'm too old to make a real gun.
(26:29):
But my goal is the goal is to play basketball
and tennis next summer. That's my personal personal Okay. So
so you're in your mind, you're like, I mean, between
are and tell him? And I don't know how big
Wasserman was at that time as well, like you're in
l a u c A basketball super hot. Um, would
(26:51):
you start interning during here's a he's sorry, here's a question. Yeah,
why do you think, um, why do you think more
guys don't have the mentality or the understanding or maybe
the value of that degree. I understand and respect that
(27:14):
the best, the best. You're gonna make so much money
for you an NBA player, But I just guys bounce
around schools now and it's like, there's there's a couple
of parts to it. There's one, there's the degree, but
there's two. There's the connection you make with the university
and you don't. You don't get that as a as
a grad transfer, and the place you leave you're not
(27:35):
really an a lumba and the place you go to
you're not really an alum of Like look, dude, you're
there for six seven months like that? Ain't that ain't
your school? You know? So? I mean I was lucky,
Like Oklahoma State's my school. I went to Notre Dame.
I love Notre Dame. I would love to have And
the reason the reason I went there is the connection
to the subway lumps. I thought I'd love to play
if I can't play. I'd love to broadcast or coach
(27:57):
all of it is, or be in business and all
that notre day unbelievable connection of a lumps um. But
but I don't. I don't really understand why so many,
so many, even even professional athletes, don't tell kids like, hey,
look at Todd's path and Todd's understanding of it that
(28:19):
maybe not even be an agent, but just using the
value of that degree of the connections at a university
in order to propel you for the rest of your life.
So this is purely a theory, right, because well hypotheses
then right, um is different from our generation because we're
(28:39):
getting older. We're gonna be old timers here pretty soon. Right.
The mentality of us playing it was pure, and not
saying it's not pure for all the guys now, but
it was sports. It wasn't entertainment. Now it's much more
synonymous with entertainment. So I'm not I'm not entertainment agent
(29:00):
or represent any actors or actresses or or even musicians
for that matter. But what I can imagine is how
many of them went to college as well before they
started acting. And my point being is, like athletes now,
their goal is to become a pro. So the quickest
path to becoming a pro it's not having that relationship
(29:22):
with the university or going there for four It's just different,
in my opinion, a different way of thinking than how
we thought because you weren't a one and done back
then to two and done that was that was quick
steph Baron. You know you usually went three or four years, right,
even Michael Jordan three years, you know Magic Bird like
(29:42):
all these guys that were even before us. It wasn't
the one and done or even now having um you
know the G League, I Nite program or overtime like
that wasn't there. I I understand that everyone's story is different, right,
totally respect that, okay. And so when you say is
(30:03):
it the right mentality the wrong mentality, You're gonna get
people that would say, well, you haven't grown up my shoes,
you don't know kids could go and play. I respect that, okay,
But isn't that the wrong aren't we is it the
wrong mentality? Like the truth is that this is this
is my honest bullef okay that the like our education
(30:24):
system at the high school and lower levels still stay.
There's still a great education disparity based upon where you
where you grow up, and what you put your background.
And the equalizer is the scholarship. That's the whole intent
of the whole The equalize right puts you on even
footing where you were not even footing when you came
up with your education in high school. And I guess
(30:46):
I don't there's there's there's just too many bad actors
in my opinion in basketball that it's not that they
want the kid to achieve. They want a little piece
of the they want a little piece of the action.
You know, they know because but but but I think
that's I just think I understand that's the new mentality.
I think it's the wrong mentality. I think it's the
(31:08):
anything really good is worth waiting for, working for. I
know there's exceptions. I know there's guys that don't need
four years of college, that don't need three years of college.
But what you think you don't need is the college basketball,
which you do need is everything else and and and
I just I think all of us soon to be
old timers, we get to like, well, it's the new generation.
(31:31):
You just gotta accept, do you or can you try
and find a way to gather enough of us to
go like, look, I get it, there's gonna be jail
and Green's, there's gonna be Kate Cunningham's. Those guys are freaks, okay,
But for the rest of everybody else, this is what
you need. This is the best thing for your rest
of your life. And that that mentality is a bad one,
you know what, Doug, It's all based on circumstance. Like
(31:52):
we could like Kobe didn't go to college, right, and
God rest his soul. But like if you if he's assuming,
Kobe continues on the path. This guy guy that didn't
step foot on college and had very successful right, and
it's a brilliant, stark individual. And but I tell you this,
like even when I step foot on campus with my
background um in education being a priority, it was intimidating.
(32:15):
I'll be honest with you. Like the pro the summer
program where you're having to produce papers and if you know,
you could have guys that go through high school want
to go to college, it's like, hold on, Like I
don't know if I could balance both. And you know,
it depends on the program where if you're working, you know,
practicing three hours and you know, lab had is practicing
(32:36):
three hours a day, then this hour of waits, then
you're getting pt. Then you need to get extra work in,
and then you got study hall. Like it's a it's
a tough load. So is it good or bad? I
don't know. Like I'm a I'm a proponent of college.
But at the same time, it's like, you know, it's
all relative to circumstance. Like my guy Josh Primo this year,
youngest guy in the draft. People were saying, why, you know,
(32:58):
why why are you going? Why are you doing in
the draft? You came off the bench the average under
ten points, and then here he is, He's a lottery pick.
And you know, can you argue that next year? You know,
god forbid, if there's an injury or something else, then
then people are being critical and saying you should have
left earlier. You should have left when you were projected higher.
So I look hindsights always. I'm a big data guy.
(33:23):
I say, I'm not the smartest guy in the room.
Let me look at the data. I could argue, going
back to the days of high school players turning pro
that the percentage of high school players that termed pro
had greater success than the ones that maybe saved four
years in college at the end of their career. If
you look back the Kevin Garden Nets, Jermaine O'Neil's right,
(33:45):
those guys were the more talented ones to begin with, right,
And it's the you know, my issues with the Angel
Collins is the Special Tel Bears, the guys who who
uh you know, did go and like the rest of
their life their left the left searching. It's a really
hard thing. Like the NBA is not responsible for the
rest of your life. Okay. So, um, so you get
(34:07):
done playing and you decided to go to law school?
What is what? What was where'd you go to law school?
What was that? What was that experience? Yeah, so, Doug,
it was all you know, it's funny. It was all
happening at the same time. So just to kind of recap.
So Wasserman was not in existent existence, tell him in
(34:29):
Associates was the precursor, right even before he was at
r and sold his company to SFX and joined David Fok.
I was there through all of that when I was
working there as an intern for three years. So by
the time by the time I'm going into my senior year,
I had actually an extra year of eligibility. I had
shoulder surgery and I did not want to play out
(34:52):
my fifth year, so I actually left. I took nine
classes of summer school to graduate, uh quicker, while my
scholarship still lasted and one class and fall. So I
started working for arn uh you know, full time as
I'm going to class to get ready for law school.
So because every agent at Arns Practice did the same thing.
(35:15):
Bob Myers was there. Bob was at Loyola right working
while working for arned to then become an agent. Um,
you know, Joe Wolf all the age. Rob Polinka was there,
he was already an attorney and in law school. So
you know we were loaded. I mean, Warren McGarry was there.
Aren't tell him. Uh, Bob Myers, Rob Polinka, bad fouche
H and Neil Allsha was doing the pre draft pre
(35:38):
draft with Tim Gergert. So you've got five guys. We're
running NBA teams, are owning the NBA Summer League about office.
And here I am at nineteen through one with the firm.
So I was I was there's only two law schools
because my plan was to be there working as an
agent and going to school. There's only two law schools
in southern California, that's low Ola Merrimont in Southwestern to
(36:01):
have a part time program where you could go to
school at night and and still work during the day
that were accredited law schools. Right, and this is post
nine eleven, So the competition in law school was thick
in terms of you know, taking your l SATs and
and applying and going to the schools you want. So
I'm in law school and um, I actually had I
(36:24):
left ARN and I was in crisis management for a
big crisis management firm in l A called Winner and Associates.
And probably about four months in in my first semester
of law school, that's when Baron reached out to me
and asked me to manage them. By the end of
that first year in law school, we're on a trip
in in uh in South in Central America, UM with
(36:48):
a rebuck tour, and I'm sick as hell. Doug like
I felt like I was gonna die. Literally, I don't
even remember Santa Domingo when we were part of that tour,
and I remember getting on the plane, I couldn't even
see straight. He was like, I want you to be
my agent. So, Um, I was twenty three turning twenty four,
and that that was the start of representing Barren. He
(37:08):
was my first client. Um, how were you treated in
the field? Always? You know, Baron's friend young you know
a number I was, you know, it's everyone was respectful
to my face, but Lord knows behind the scenes. And
because I have no gray hairs behind me, you know,
(37:31):
I was just recently graduated college. Uh, not too many
years prior. And I you know, I don't want to
say Baron was my client. He was more of a partner.
We just we had a partnership. He had He had
a he had a blueprint, as he would call it,
and I was there to execute. How did he it
(37:51):
felt like it was always I know, Cash Warren, he
was really close. He's really mostly right. How did he
always seem to have this like plan, Like here's a
dude braised by his grandma south Central l A. Right,
but he always seemed to have a plan. You want
to do movies and entertainment, not just and now blessed
as an amazing basketball player? Was that you and him?
(38:14):
Was that something he had already established? Like where did
that come from? Baron already he always had that. I
think that's Baron's uh, you know, lens or perspective on
the world growing up in in South Central and then
going to Crossroads in Santa Monica. Baron Baron is a
phenomenal one. He's a trendsetter, Doug, but he's I tell you,
he's a phenomenal talent evaluator, you know, in terms of
(38:36):
like you could talk to people that he's crossed across
paths with in business that have either worked in partnership
with him or worked for him. A lot of those
people have moved on to uh, you know, executive positions
and entertainment, uh, you know myself even you know, running
my own agency and rep continue to represent players. You know,
Cash is a serial entrepreneurs. So Baron has always just
(38:59):
been good at identifying, you know, talented young people as
he's progressing his career that have moved on to you know,
if they're not working alongside him, moved on to bigger
and even greater things. So and that's a that's a
talent in itself. I think, yes, No, it's it's just
like it's no different than to be a to be
a you know, a GM, to be a coach. To
(39:21):
be an agent, you gotta be able to evaluate talent
and see, Okay, in two years, this guy is going
to be this with the right you know, putting the
right position. It's an amazing gift, gift to have. So
you're representing who is your second club, Trevor Reza. The
following year, you know, Trevor was he was eighteen coming
out of u C l A average twelve and seven.
(39:44):
No one anticipated him leaving. He was gonna leave. I
ended up representing Trevor, getting him drafted to the Knicks.
What was it? What was that like? Um, it was great.
Trevor was great. You know, Trevor and I are still
friends now. Um it was I tell you man, we
were fearless. It was kind of crazy. I looked back, like,
(40:05):
what the hell were we doing? Because we don't they
like you're using we're using common sense or for me,
it's like trial and error. But we we prepped. You know, Ricohins,
who's still a best friend of mine, who's one of
the best player development coaches. He put Trevor through player
development for the draft process, and uh, you know, Trevor
ends up playing extremely well in the in the l
(40:28):
A Summer League at the time. This is a precursor
Vegas and you know Isaiah Thomas took him. Uh. It's
a funny story I still laugh about. With Isaiah. My
first contract negotiation was was interesting because I was completely
prepped for it. But you're not prepped for Isaiah Thomas
(40:48):
or somebody that you know what I mean. Yeah, plus
your you grew up in l A in the eighties.
He was awesome, but I hate him. And he has
this in the guys that are the starts and you
know this, like we've been around the guys that they
have an aura to them. They just do right, they
(41:11):
have it or okay, so still with them. No, no,
well I sat down with them. I think Isaiah was
testing me. This is post Summer League and m and
Isaiah asked to meet me at the Four Seasons in
Beverly Hills, but not at like nine am or ten am,
seven am, because Isaiah knew I was young. So let's
say I think it was a test. Let's see if
(41:32):
this guy shows up on time. I was there. I
think probably am Is mom was there with him initially,
and then we sit down and talk. But the funny
thing is I always say this in negotiations to their
strength and numbers. Right, if if you and I are
negotiating against each other, Doug and as you by yourself
and I have two other people with me, attorneys and
(41:52):
other experienced people, their strength naturally in numbers. So in
that negotiation, we started the talks in l A. He
goes back to New York and now they have the
you know, the lead counsel for the Knicks, and they
have me on speaker phone negotiating. Which which was Uh?
I sit back and think about that conversation. Uh, there
(42:14):
was some curveballs thrown at me that I handled. But
more more than anything that intimidation tactics. I think I
held my own at least Isaiah said I did, and
I got a good deal for Trevor. When was the
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like like for Trevor? What is it like for a
guy who's a client at a very young age to leave,
to leave you? What's that? What's that feeling like to
leave me as a as a agent? Yes? Like who
when I mean inevitably? Yeah? What is that? What is
that like? From your perspective? Oh man? It was. It
was like losing your first, your first love, like your
(45:10):
your first you know, like a girl breaking up with
you in high school, right your first life, like it hurts.
I was like, God, I'm not going to be able
to survive as an agent, Like it's over. My reputation
is done, X, Y and Z and I countless stories
Doug where it's just like you figure it out, you
learn from it, you pick yourself back up, and you
keep moving forward. But that was devastating. But in hindsight,
(45:33):
you know, based on how green I was in certain areas,
not in the negotiations or preparation. It was more just
life experience. In terms of guiding him, I don't fault
him for making that change at the time when you
now the professionality you've been in for twenty years against
super successful um better worse. Different In terms of recruiting players,
(45:59):
the experien it's lucky, it's it's it's much better because
I don't waste time. I'm much more efficient for me.
It is because Doug got I'm a big believer, and
I tell my staff this is I don't I don't
sugarcoat things. I don't. I'm not I'm not selling anything
that I don't think I could deliver on. So the
client stepped buy into what I'm selling as a service.
(46:21):
Are the guys I'm supposed to be representing, and look,
those guys are experiencing success. I tend to evaluate talent
for what I could develop them into. So, you know,
you look at a Pascal Siakam. You know, Pascal wasn't
supposed to be a first round It wasn't supposed to
be an All Star or a max player, but he's
those things. You know, Tom Thomas Bryant second round pick,
(46:43):
you know, wave by the Lakers, and now he's the
starting center. He just turned twenty four. I think Thomas's
position to earn twenty to twenty five million per year
next year, if not greater once he recovers from his nation. Okay,
so so go back Pascal. Okay, I called pascals tournament
game Mexico State. His his coach. Uh. You know, Margaret
(47:03):
is like my brother's best friend in the business. Okay,
if you told me that this is how good he
could be, I would be like, when did you first
see Pascal? I saw him at in Bakersfield, playing against Bakersfield,
And you know, I when I evaluate talent, it's like,
(47:24):
is he really six nine six ten? What's his body type?
Can you shoot the ball does he have touched? You know?
And I could tell those things even if he's not
shooting jumpers at the free throw line. And then how
good Earth's feet? What's his athleticism, and like what does
he do well? And then the other component and Doug,
here's the thing is you you would not have thought
I was crazy if you're in the gym every day
(47:46):
watching him like I am. So you you have a
basketball pedigree as well. That's the big thing that people
forget is I'm in the gym every day watching the
development of my guys, doing my calls, like how you
are right now, I'm doing my calls in the gym,
So I'm watching the ascension of their development. So it's
by the end of the summer three months, if I'm
(48:06):
watching Pascal compete at a high level against Paul George
lebron or or Chris Paul or James Harden and those guys,
I'm starting to a you know, an earshot away hearing
them talk about Pascal. It's easy for me to know
where what direction my guys going in terms of his development.
But if you're if you're on outside looking in saying, oh,
this guy is from New Mexico State or you know,
(48:28):
I don't know this guy or i've seen him play once,
I don't know, but you're not seeing his his development.
Then I could see how somebody may think I'm crazy
or biased to my client opposed to actually seeing where
there are What what is it? You know your role,
you're so you get I mean, look one of the
one of the sales and you tell if I'm wrong.
(48:49):
Is you have a great, strong relationship with your clients.
It's a partnership, it's a friendship. It's more than just hey,
I'm gonna get your next deal. Right, Okay, So Pascal
struggles in the playoffs. Right, here's a young guy. It's
the highest level of the NBA is different. What what's
that like for you to deal with knowing what he
(49:09):
has in them but also knowing the reality of in
play as well as as he as he can as
the agent but also the partner and the friend. What
does that experience? It's being honest. I gotta be honest
with him, and and it's also bringing in, um, you know,
some other stories or examples of other players, because every
all great players go through adversity, every single one. We
(49:32):
can't name one that didn't struggle at some point on
their path to maybe be being you know, taking it
up and notch to greatness and and having that level
of consistency, even you know Lebron, not saying Pascal is
is Lebron, but you know Lebron has gone through it
or Steph has gone through it. All the great players
go through it. It's how they handle that adversity and
(49:53):
come out on the other side. So for me having
those conversations with Pascal, it's not sugarcoating it. It's like, hey,
you need to get your wrestler, let's go get some
extra reps in, or this is all part of the process,
like it's okay, let's get back to work in the
off season. So it's not and then actually not just
saying things but backing it up as an agent with
(50:15):
a plan of action for them to take to get better.
But it's never yeah, hey, it's everybody else's follower. You're
the victim and X, Y and Z. It's like, no,
let's look at it from all angles. Understand this business
and what it is. Let's understand what your role is.
Because Pascal's path is is a is a is an
unconventional one, if we look at it from NBA All
(50:38):
Star standards is this wasn't a guy that's supposed to
be an All Star. He came out of nowhere. So
him being thrust into a leadership role as an All
Star Max player, that's all new to him. He's the
youngest of six, right, so we understand family dynamics as well.
He's learning and being more comfortable as in his skin
in terms of leadership role. So it's it's literally coaching
(51:00):
him through that. It's talking to the team and management.
You know, in some cases even Nick Nurse about those
things to bring it to his attention. And then you
know it's a partnership with the team understanding his success
is a team success. Pascal success is what was my own.
So for me it's again I always say relationships outside
looking in could be contentious, or you can look at
(51:23):
us a part as a partnership and and make it
make sense so that both sides benefit. You know, whatever
it is, whatever it is in terms of outcomes, we
want turn here, go to law school. You know, probably
skipped the step that even you want to skip and
starting with Baron, you know, before you finished doing what
(51:46):
you want to do. Um, but if somebody wants to
be you, what, how would you like? There's a college
basketball player out there was like, and I like, I
love this game, I love the sport. What what would
you what would you recommend to them as the first
step in trying to see if they like the process
of being an agent. Yeah, they would recommend a credible
(52:10):
internship with a credible firm, because we're we're all judged
by a resume um and you want to learn and
pick up those good habits or see great agents at
work to understand their habits or what it entails. Oftentimes,
I have young people that reach out to me and says,
you know, have said, hey, I've interned here, I've worked
in sports, And then I say where, And it may
(52:34):
not have been a credible firm in which I know,
they may not have picked up great habits in terms
of what it takes to be an agent. I think
most people get it confused now that hey, if I
have a player, I could just go get certified and
I know how to be an agent, or I'm an
agent all of a sudden, Like that's is disrespectful to
be honest with you, Like there's an art and a
(52:56):
there's a there's an art to being an agent for
one understanding the business and what it entails, and then um, yeah,
you want to surround yourself with great people that have
had success being an agent because we're fiduciaries of our clients.
M Um, you mentioned Rob who you worked with. You
mentioned aren't um Leon Rose now running a team? Like?
(53:20):
Is that is that the dream? Is that the gold
is there? Is there any part of you that says
I love what I'm doing, But man, I would love
to run the team and rebuild something. I'm naturally a builder.
That's why I'm running my own company. If that opportunity
presented itself, I would I would look at it. Obviously,
(53:41):
my clients are family for me, so it's a conversation
I would have have with them as well and my family.
But I mean that could always be interesting because I
don't know about you, Doug in terms of you know,
growing up as an as an athlete is like I
love being a part of a team. Like there's nothing
better than that, you know, Um, you know, having um
(54:02):
colleagues or having um you know associates or people that
you're looking in the same direction building towards, you know,
at least in sports and building towards a championship, so
that aspect always intrigues me. For me on on the
company's side, is the same thing as like, uh, you know,
as building towards our client's personal success or in some
(54:24):
ways we're even sharing in the championships, you know, even
as recently for me with Pascal or even Caban Looney.
Right now, here's the here's the you. You mentioned your honesty.
Do you cheer for other agents to succeed because like,
if they succeed, that means, hey, this is a good plan.
Or did you not want agents to succeed? What? What's
(54:46):
what's the experience like of watching other people who have
done what you've done play? You know, Bob obviously has
had an incredible amount of success. Rob's had success, is
won the title. Do you cheer for those guys, um,
because as that allows maybe that path open up for you.
You know, I wouldn't necessarily say cheer, but there's a
(55:07):
tremendous amount of respect I have because conversations come up
sometimes where people are critical of other agents and their
work or even their transition, and I'm I'll be protective
of other agents or other guys because a lot of again,
a lot of people don't understand what goes into our jobs.
And for an agent to have success for extended period
(55:28):
of time, especially uh, managing a you know, high level talent,
it's not easy, you know. And people can make the assumption, oh,
well that guy was a lottery pick already or he
was a superstar. Well you gotta deliver for those guys too,
that the expectations are greater as well. So I give
a lot of credit to those agents or even those
(55:49):
guys that make the transition to the front office. And
and and I say, in some ways, those guys are
better prepared. And that's not taken away from the front
This exects that haven't been agents. But you're every day
you're deal dealt with the set of circumstances that you
didn't know was coming the day before, right Because ten percent,
(56:12):
you know, if if I'm looking at my business or
my role, you know, ten percent of it is probably
contract negotiations. The other nine are managing the client and
managing the curveballs that no one see. If if I'm
doing a good job managing the curve balls that nobody's
reading about or no one else has seen, you know,
and you know that's it. So I in some ways, I,
(56:36):
like I said, I'm not. I can't say I'm outright cheering,
but I'm When I see them, I pay my respect
and acknowledge the work that they're doing and and want
them to be successful. I think there's enough for everybody. Yeah,
that that's I mean, that's obvious. I believe that to
be true. And I also think that's why. You know,
I'm sure you champion your own kind of young guys, right,
(56:57):
there's there's plenty. Um. You mentioned your own firm. How
hard is that your own thing? This is your own thing.
It's extremely hard. It's extremely hard, especially for me when
I when I went back after I left B d
A in two thousand thirteen, I didn't have a marquee
client to uh, I guess you could say, to to
(57:22):
use to gain other clients. So for me, I had
to change my approach to the business to identify um
undervalued talent that I could develop into those UM players
that I thought that could be very successful. So you know,
when I left in thirteen, I had to In two
thousand fifteen, I had Cavan Looney and even Norman Powell
(57:45):
that that I got drafted, followed by the next year
sixteen Pascal Siakum picked up March and gor Toad as
a client, seventeen Thomas Bryant and then just kind of
just continue to build on momentum. But at the time,
if you look back in hinds, like those guys weren't
Marquis guys I had. That's a lot in their player development,
(58:06):
not just in the pre draft process but every offseason
to help get them to where they're at in terms
of their second contracts. Also, though again falling back on
your relationships, right Van Looney at u c l A,
a place that you've played, and of course he gets
drafted by Bob Meyers, a guy who went to us
l A and you work with the firm. Right this,
It doesn't mean that there's anything elictit, but business is business.
(58:29):
It's about relationships and who you know. And if you're
telling Bob Bob can play like you know, that's different
than an agent. He doesn't have a long standing relationship
with an understanding. That is that a fair way to
look at it. I think it's fair, But you know, Bobby,
regardless of relationship, Bob is you know and obviously this
is as in their run and uh you know, uh
(58:53):
Gavan fell in the draft for for medical reasons. You know,
it's me saying that to Bob. I think he's not
in the moment of drafting Cavan as much as him
thinking about the relationship long term because of of our dynamic. Um,
because Bob is gonna have to pick the best player
for the Golden State Warriors at any I'm not because
(59:17):
I'm his the player's agent, but because that's the best
talent available. So in some ways it works hand in hand.
But you know, it's I'd like to think that my
relationship with any team is I'm not I'm not one
of the bullshit. I'm just gonna tell it how it
is and I and I love that process because I
guess through experience, whether again Josh Primo, I could call
(59:40):
a team when he's projected in the second round and say, guys,
look like Pascal or lack of Thomas, Bryan or Cavan.
Where I'm telling you, guys, the talent that I'm seeing
and you guys know what I'm gonna do. This kid
is going to be a superstar. And the ones that
believe believe, and the ones that, don't you know. I
remind him in the few true when I have the
(01:00:00):
next player, there's there's satisfactors, or that's the chip on
my shoulder dog and maybe that's a former athlete. To me,
it's like I told you so, so you don't believe me,
I'll do it again. UM. I had a my TV
and radio agent um for five or six years. My
(01:00:22):
second agent was guy named Nick con Nick now runs
w W Right and he was at CIA. He was
very powerful, brilliant guy. And Nick used to tell me
all the time, he's like, being an agent is a
young man's job. It's a grinder's job. Fifty is about
like he's like, fifties about kind of the cutoff. Okay,
so you're in your early forties. You've been really successful. Um,
(01:00:46):
what is what are your thoughts on the next five
ten years? For you? Personally? It's, um, you know, I'm
always thinking when you know, it's it's continuing to help
develop my current roster of clients, helped groom the next
generation of agents that are working with me, because that's
a that's a big part of my I guess my
(01:01:07):
ethos and businesses. I it's not just helping my clients go.
It's helping the people that are working for me, are
working alongside me grow. I think there's no greater satisfaction.
And you know, whether within my company or you know,
you know, helping them grow their wings to where they're
an executive somewhere else and having tremendous success. Like I
value that. UM. But for me, the next eight to
(01:01:30):
ten years, it's just see where the industry evolves into.
Look at n I L being introduced. Um. You know,
I'm very big into sports science and investments in sports
science for athletes. UM. I think with technology, that's going
to impact our industry tremendously like it has every other
sector of business and finance in other areas. So for me,
(01:01:53):
it's the satisfaction I get. Honestly, Doug is not going
along with the status quo of how things have always been.
Is like, how can I disrupt a business that people
say is not scalable from a business perspective because it's
a service business. But how can I introduce new technologies
in a way that we've never seen before because quite frankly,
(01:02:16):
the business has been done the same way from agents
the last forty or fifty years. Starting with McCormick in
IMG to where Now, if you're I think wise and
and um and diligent about the technologies that you can
integrate for clients in their development off the court in
terms of sports science, but also on how we represent them,
(01:02:37):
I think, you know, it can be interesting for the
future because if you're not adding value to your clients
now because dot we haven't even talked about like, look
at the contracts these guys are signing, right, Uh. Steph
Curry signed I think two oh seven on an extension
over four years. With the new media rights deal coming
in in twenty four is expirations seventy billion dollars, the
(01:03:00):
current deals four billion. And if we go back to
when that influx of money came in, we saw the
level of contracts, how that was impacted, right, seventy five billion,
three times more. I did some projections. Rookie like Josh
Primo could be eligible to sign probably an extension as
a twenty one year old between two hundred and fifty
(01:03:23):
and three hundred million dollars depending on a Max or
Super Max player. Right. So for me, it's also looking
into the future forecasting because now you're talking about athletes
having their own family office and raise their level of
sophistication to a whole different level. Uh even forget off
(01:03:43):
the court earnings. Just they're on court earnings. So for
me it's also you know, how do you I'm not
waiting until that happens. It's what mechanisms or what services
can I put in place now to make sure that
I could address all the needs of my client. It's
in the future when they are earning that level of income. Uh, Todd,
(01:04:06):
You've been so gracious with your time due. It's really
really amazing. It's been fun, has been good. I really
appreciate it. Let's do it in person. And I'm a
fan of Primo, so I can't wait to see what
he does this year in San Antonio. Fixture years and
thanks again for joining us. No, I appreciate it, Doc,
and look forward to the next time. Pretty amazing stuff, right,
(01:04:29):
I mean, just the the ability at nineteen years old ago, like, hey,
let me pivot and think about becoming an agent and
then using the connections that you have established at U
C l A to build really a business, and then
breaking out and building the business on your own. All
those challenges all right in here. I thought you'd love that,
and that's the type of guy who you will see
(01:04:52):
whether you talked about being a super agent or you
talk about evolving into a guy running a team. He
is such a wherewithal and is so respected in the sport.
I thought he'd just be a good listen he was.
I'm I'm fast, and I want to grab him back
and talk for another hour about other who guys that
that he's discovered. In the meantime, remember the Doug Gotlip
Show is daily three to six Eastern twelve three Pacific,
I Heart Radio, Fox Sports Radio app, I Heart Radio app, etcetera, etcetera.
(01:05:15):
Wherever you listen to oport Radio, we can also download
that as a podcast. In the meantime, if you have questions,
comments at Gottlieb Show, Twitter or Instagram. The best way
to get ahold of me, I'm Doug Gottlieban. This is
all ball. Get right to the romance and find the
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(01:45):
welcome in? I'm go and this is all ball. Um
quick note, we are going to have a summer league
recap all ball for you coming up. I have a
litany of really good and interesting guests and uh, you know,
we've we've diverged at some point from always basketball. We
had Maurice Clarette. If you missed all three parts of that,
(02:06):
it was pretty amazing stuff. This week's all ball. I
think you're really gonna like because I love interesting, brilliant people,
and I really like people that love the sport that
you love. But also sometimes you're not good enough to
always play it right, but you can still find an
incredible career in it. Ty Tyder Amazar is an amazing story, right,
(02:28):
son of immigrants. He grew up for the most part
in um in Norco, California. He'll tell you what Norco
was like forty years ago. But he grew up in
like kind of farm country just outside of Los Angeles,
really near Chino Hills where the Ball brothers grew up.
And became a very good basketball player. But even though
he had good grades, wasn't recruited a high level walked
(02:49):
on to u c l A, got a scholar. I
don't want to give away the whole story anyway, Um,
how do you become the youngest agent in NBA history?
How did he? Where the relationships come from? What are
his thoughts and agents running teams? What's it like to
get fired as a representative of a player? All of
that stuff is in here, plus some some awesome stories
(03:10):
about playing basketball at u c l A. Alright, I
think you'll like it. By the way, if you like
my stuff, you can listen to the Doug Out Live
Show daily three to six Eastern twelve three Pacific on
the I Heart Radio app or on Fox Sports Radio
dot com. Or you can also download that podcast at
your at your discretion. All right, without further ado, here's
(03:30):
superstar agent Dodd ramazar Um Todd when you he became
a certified agent twenty four years old, which sounds really young,
but I mean one of the things that's interesting about
your basketball life was you're really young when you graduated
high school. Let's go back. Okay, so you grew up
in Norco. Now, for people who don't know where dorc goes,
(03:53):
it's really close to Chino Hills. But again we're talking
about Dorco twenty years ago, ago, years ago. Even now
you drive into Norcot US day. Right. How does an
immigrant family um from the West Indies, How did you guys? Yeah,
so I have an older brother, Dougie. He was born
(04:14):
in New York. My parents, Um, my parents are from
two different countries, Haiti and British Guyana. So they met
in New York. My dad was in the telephone company.
My mother was a r N and uh my dad
got a transfer request from the telephone company. So it
was either Florida or California. And I just found this
(04:34):
out recently from my mom. She had dreams in California.
She had never been so sight unseen. She's like, we're
going to California. So we ended up in uh, you know,
I was born in Fullerton. We ended up you know,
I was born in Orange County. He lived in Orange
County until probably right before I was two years old,
and then we moved to uh, we moved to Norco
(04:55):
in nineteen I think nine. So, as you mentioned with
you being from Testin doug you know, you know, even
Annaheim Hills, that whole corridor area wasn't what it is
now or even twenty years ago. This is you know,
forty years ago almost. So it was more farm you know, farmland, cattle,
(05:16):
more of a Midwest field than anything else. Yeah. Um, so,
so your love for basketball because you played football and
you're kind of a study at football early on in
high school. But was it because your your brother played?
Like what what drew you to basketball? Yeah? It was
my It was my older brother, you know. Um I
(05:37):
got drawn to football because of my older cousin. He
was eight years older than me. This is back when
the Inland Empire didn't have too many high schools. He
played in Norco High School, which was was the powerhouse
high school, Thatton Eisenhower in the Inland Empire before Corona Centennial.
So I was always playing with older guys, my older brother,
my older cousin in football. But when my brother started
(05:59):
playing basketball at the young age, I just fell in
love with it. And then, as you know, Doug, for
us growing up in southern California, the Lakers were hot.
So my idol was magic. You know, you're you're you're
watching you're growing up in southern California. You know, the
Lakers were in what the finals nine out of eleven
years or ten years. I mean, it's hard not to
love basketball. So that's where my affinity for the game grew,
(06:23):
and I would emulate I would try to emulate magic
on the on the court. It is interesting, right that
your your first big client with Barren, Who's like, who's
just a mini magic, right, like a way more athletic magic.
That was that was you. Baron reminded everybody. I've just
disabout to control a game. And the truth is Baron's
not really old enough. I mean, I know he played
against them at the Men's jim so, you know, but
(06:46):
not really old enough to I've experienced the real magic.
There is an interesting kind of full circle to it. Okay, so, um,
you're playing high school basketball. But you went to j
W North. How far And for people who don't know
j W North is that's Reggie Miller right, No, no, no, Doug.
Reggie went to Riverside Poly. Sorry. Uh. Quincy Brewer I
(07:08):
think was the was right before you. He was like
a two three combo score. J Doub always had dudes, right,
Corey Benjamin what heym ballers right like that was in
the Empire was producing some dudes back then. Um Keith
(07:29):
and Horne was was wasn't that for his diamond bar? Yea?
I remember you had you had I'll go through a
really quick one team that the one team had four
starters in the Pac ten on it on that j
W North teams. Quincy board, I went to a s U.
Ed Grave. I ended up at now Sonny Benjamin at
Oregon State and then Corey Benjamin as well, and then
(07:51):
we were all the generation right after. But they went
to UH eight finals, c IF Southern Section finals in
a row. Yeah what Trayvon Carmichael was right, yeah, Sean,
what happened to him? He was? He was, I mean,
we have to do where the world because Traylon Carmichael.
(08:12):
We I remember we went to a B C. D
and ninety four and he was three and he was
on the team. We had never heard of this dude
and he was like six four, looked like a football player.
He was asked he was billed deep duncan dudes. The
guy was I swear the guy was jumping off with
two feet from free throw lining games. It seems like
(08:32):
uh and him and Corey were him Coorey and and
Jamal Slaughter were teammates at Fontana after Corey transferred from
North but talented team. Yeah. Hi, it was pretty legit
back then. Um okay, so so um what education I
was a huge in your in your household? Now? Is that?
(08:55):
Did your parents come home and and you know, make
you do work? Like? How was Why was action so
such an important part of your upgrade? I think, you know,
I would say this is probably the immigrant mentality overall.
It's like, you know, everyone I think that tends to
immigrate to the US is for a better way of life,
not just for themselves but for their kids. And so
(09:17):
like you know, like a lot of immigrant families is, hey,
you're gonna be a doctor or a lawyer, so you know,
my brother's maybe or maybe if you're if you like
this Jewish families, doctor lawyer, and if you got you
got nothing going for your account, right exactly, and and
maybe that's change are evolved. Now I got I got
(09:38):
some Indian buddies or they're like, yeah, Todd, it was
a doctor, attorney or engineer, and now it's like, okay,
entertainment and entertainment, executive other things. But for us, it's
that's that's the route we took. My brothers owns his
own practice. He's a chiropractor. Technically, I guess you could
say a doctor. He went that route. I know, right,
(10:00):
I'm trying to do him. Here's here's the here's the
here's the thing with the chiropractic. Okay, is not a doctor.
Doctor is somebody gets sick on a plane. Okay, So
asbody gets sick on a plane and he says, there
a doctor here like chiropractics, like yeah, I got you right.
On the other hand, on the other hand, let's be
honest in terms of daily health and usefulness. Oh, when
(10:20):
you got a rib out or you're not right, there's
nobody in the world you'd rather have than a chiropractor.
Like on your on yourself beauty of having a chiropractor
in the family. You wake up with the stiff knacker
has been a long road trip ten minutes away. I
go see him, Okay. And then for me it was,
you know, I went to I ended up leaving law school,
(10:42):
but I went to I went to law school. That
was it was kind of you know, for me, that
was the path that was going to pursue, but not
use my law degree to be say just a traditional
uh lawyer from the sense of you know, corporate law
or something like that. It was always in pursuing as
an agent. So, um, take me through the decision to
(11:05):
go to u c. L A. What was what was
it like? This is still Herrick right. They were they
were rolling, I mean about me. I'm the year before
and and I turned them down. And they take Brandon
oh Man, what's the kid's name? He was from Oklahoma,
you know, Um oh Man, Brandon, what's the news name?
(11:27):
He was a sophomore when you were a freshman. We
had we had we had for hum we had um.
Now he's a backup blackyard Brandon Lloyd. So so they
so Stephon Marbury was the guy everybody wanted, and I
was like the fallback guy and my sister was a
(11:48):
cheerlider there. A brother went there, and then I turned down.
I got to Notre Dame and then they win the
national championship. I'm sitting there like, are you kidding me? Right?
Like I love U c l A Basketball, they win
the national champion What went into your decision together? I mean,
if it was just that, like for me, it was
a dream, if you for me growing up playing football
and basketball. If I was playing football, I was going
(12:09):
to USC you know, that's just what it is. And
uh for basketball, my dream since I was playing that
growing up, it was to go to u c l A.
And then so because I satisfied both things. It was
always athletics, academics. Both schools are great, right, I'm proud
to be a Brewing and it was it was. It
was a natural choice for me. But you know, I
(12:31):
I checked into school dug so young. I was seventeen.
I was a late bloomer, the top one hundred. I
ended up walking on because I got turned down some
other schools. Like that was my dream. Plus I was competitive.
I thought I could uh, I could walk on and
earned a scholarship, which I did, and I just wanted
to be part of the special class with you know,
that class out of southern California. I think we could
(12:52):
argue might have been one of the most talented classes
in Southern California, Right, Chris Burgess, Baron Davis. Uh, you
say Cotton, Kenny Bruner, um, the Collins Twins. I mean
I don't know, like like, look you go back to
not I think it's there was a class with Tracy Murray,
Don McLean, Um, Uh, I think that was Sean Mills.
(13:18):
What was in that class as well? Um? Who else was?
Who else was in that Chris Mills, I mean Chris Mills,
Chris Mills, Derek Martin, like they were all like saying
class that was I think Adam Keith was that class together?
A crazy class. Then my junior year, which is I
actually I was a late bloomer, so I stayed back
in eighth grade. So your seven team when you graduate
(13:40):
high plas nineteen when I graduate high school. But but
had a couple of your teammates Chris Johnson, Jared Henderson, right,
Toby Toby Bailey, um, had Miles Simon and had u. God,
you go through it was. That was Tony's was awesome.
(14:01):
My teammate Cameron Murray h Tracy's brother, Tracy's brother as well, Like,
there's there's been some really really so okay, so when
you first get there as a walk on, but you're
like a recruited walk on, you're not like a dude.
And my brother went there to walk on. Herrick helped
him get in and then um uh lou Lou Roe
beat lu uh what's his name? He end up transferring
(14:24):
to Clemson and playing. Now he's coach at Northern California.
I know who you're talking about. Yea, yeah, Well and
like nobody knew he was showed up and kicked his
ass to tryouts and Greg was like, I didn't make
a team, so it was better for me. And he
goes on and starts at Clemson. So so when did
Herrick give you a scholarship? Well, so Herrick got fired.
(14:46):
So my freshman year laugh, that was Lab. We were
LABS first recruiting class, right, so we were all recruited
by Romar Herrick laugh. And then then that that was
junior year. By senior year and the time we were
checking in is when all that all that happened, and
Herrick was no longer there. Romar had left and laughed
as head coach. So they componed Eric, they componed him,
(15:09):
They got him, They got a expense receipts. Come on, man,
they got anywhere else in the country that that that's
a flyer, Like that's that's a that's a give. Come on,
come on. Okay, So so you're you're a freshman, what
do you remember about how it went down? So for
people who don't remove, who have forgotten, Okay, when they
(15:30):
signed Barron, they did some I mean, frankly, some crazy
stupid ship right like his his sister worked in the
basketball office, and Herrick's son sold him as like Chevy Blazer,
I like, I don't even and and it was front
page of the l A Times and really was a
bunch of other little stuff. And then they found the
(15:50):
expense report steel and they but what was it like
for you? Like here you are seventeen year old kid
from Riverside, walk on trying to make it and all
the stuff goes down, there's a coaching change. What do
you remember about that time? Lab was my lead recruiter,
So it wasn't I didn't get caught up to be
honest in any of it. It was just Lab still.
(16:10):
You know, Harry got fired Lab coach the year prior
in which they went to the lead eight. I want
to say Johnny went down with an injury to Asternum.
There's another one. Yeah, yeah, So you know, coming in
it's like their freend, you know, for us as a
fresh off a championship in some ways in nine five
(16:31):
they made the run the year before, We're coming in
with the number one recruiting class. You know, Shae Cotton, Baron,
Earl Wattson, Rico Hyans, Moose had just transferred. You know,
I'm walking on and I'm I'm set, you know, ranked
seventy five in the country, and you know, Billy Night,
Travis Reid. We were loaded. So there was nothing but excitement.
I wasn't even thinking about that. And then, as you know, Doug,
(16:52):
you going into the men's gym, playing against Magic and
UH and doing the summer program. It was a dream
come true. I didn't think twice about it. Fox Sports
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That's k e e p s dot com, Keeps dot
com slash all ball, So you get there Um, when
did when did lad give you a schart? I'm going
into my sophomore year. What was that conversation like with
(20:23):
your parents? Um? Oh, they were a static they you know,
because I really put in a lot of work between
my freshman and sophomore year, and you know, freshman year
is an adjustment, you know, as you said, you know,
coming in a seventeen. You know, the seniors were all
the guys that won the championship as freshman, Toby j R.
Chris Johnson and of course Jolyni McCoy was there, and
(20:45):
Brandon Lloyd, and then you've got all these guys coming
from all over the country, Rico's coming from hard Grave
and St. John's prospect called Barons there Earl. You know,
so it was a diverse competitive group. I think we
walked away bloodied every day in price to So for me,
it was great. You know, I can't say I was
surprised because that was a goal, but it was great
(21:06):
to at least take that burden and and hit that
accomplishment of earning that scholarship at u c l A. Okay,
here's one of the things that I always found to
be interested, so that the national champion team had like
eleven dudes that played me. It was like something crazy
terms number of dudes that played the NBA, right, like everybody?
I mean, and honestly, Chris Johnson didn't play. But if
(21:27):
Chris Johnson was now like guys, a stretching guys, a
small ball four or five, unbelievable, perfect, perfect guy, right,
so unbelievable talented. Team wins then asked, chance, if you
guys just have dude do but and if you would
have walked into that locker room and asked, how many
you guys are going to the NBA? Everybody would have
raised their hands, right everyone? When did in your mind
(21:50):
you think like, hey, agent abably, it was probably my
my It was probably my say going into my sophomore year. Actually,
you know, I take that back, Doug, if I had
to revisit, it was probably my sophomore year I ended
up starting. But you know, we we had the number
(22:11):
one recruiting class coming in eight, followed by another number
one recruiting class Matt Barnes, Geron Rush, Ray, Young, Dan Gazer,
Restro Maiso, I mean they were loaded. Yeah, so coming in,
putting in all that work, starting for a game or
two and then not seeing the court until the end
of my sophomore year in like sporadic minutes. It was like, no,
(22:34):
that was a reality check. You know. I thought about
transferring and everything, but I was like, you know what,
why am I transferring? Yeah? I could play, but getting
this degree from u c l A. I know I'm
gonna be in southern California and I knew I wanted
to go to grad school. So at the end of
that sophomore years when I started working for ARN telling
bearing and left gon Pro. All the u c l
A guys were assigning with ARN at the time, which
(22:56):
was telling the associates, and then that was my segue
into the business. At nine, I got so many things, gosh,
and just so much stuff. Okay, I would make that.
I'd make the case Barren towards a c L on
a filthy crossover dunks on the dude um in the
n c A tournament. Um, I know we were in
the same region. I saw it. I think we're in
(23:17):
saving as I saw it happen, and um, which do
you that was still there. I've never seen somebody tear
their a c L on a more nasty play than that.
That was I tell people all the time that was
when he was when he landed, or when he jumped.
He jumped so high, Doug, and I was looking down
(23:37):
the court. He jumped so high his head was at
the rim eye level. He pulled himself up with his momentum.
I don't think Baron knew how high he was. So
it was on the landing. He put all that weight,
all his weight on one one leg when he landed,
and that's what made a pop. It wasn't It's interesting
he doesn't like me. I still don't know why we
(23:58):
haven't ever heard what we have to chopping up at
some point time. Interesting because my because my my dad
was like when I because that the year before he
when he was a senior, I was sitting out after
transfer from Notre Dame, and they basically like, look we
get Baron, we're gonna take Baron and if not, and
I was like people's second choice, Georgia Tech's second choice, Kansas.
(24:19):
I was somewhere down the line or whatever anyway, But
my dad was like, look, that's the best high school
point guard I've ever seen. He used to Gilanni Gardner
used to be the guy that he thought was the
next match Johnson and then he was like, Baron's the
best I've ever seen. Um, he still had a very
very good career, very good career. What would he have
(24:42):
been like had he not twent doug. I think baroness
was such if you really revisit that, you know, and
that's our generation when he when he tore it, that
was still at a time when the a c L surgery,
like the procedure, it could go either way like it. It
It wasn't like now we're you come back stronger, So
(25:04):
we were right there where like you know, Baron tears
it in March, he was back playing by the end
of that same year. That's the type of freaky was
a lot of people don't know this. Kobe would come
to our practices the following year Baron wasn't clear to play.
Him and Kobe are playing one on one on the
sideline and Baron's wearing this huge knee brace. So I
(25:26):
don't honestly if he if he doesn't tear it, I
think he's still the same player. Maybe maybe he's the
number one player because maybe we continue going on in
in March. But that sophomore year, he comes back and
he's healthy, you know, and he was a highlight reel
still goes number three. Well what I so if you
remember his first game back to play against US, I
(25:47):
got thrown out of the game at halftime whatever, he
flopped into a technical voul. But he wasn't he wasn't
moving right yet. He's still heavy and he had that brace.
And then but month was mother than Docember? Right, that
was November? That was December yet And yeah, if you
think about that, that's only eight months after the injury. Yeah,
(26:09):
nine months. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy even in today's standards.
I'm Thomas Bryant, that towards a c L and you
know it's eleven to twelve months until there. You know
he's fully back, is what they're protecting. Don't tell me
that I tore mine like two months ago. I just
got my surgery two weeks ago. But I'm too old
to make it. I'm too old to make a real gun.
(26:29):
But my goal is the goal is to play basketball
and tennis next summer. That's my personal personal Okay. So
so you're in your mind, you're like, I mean, between
are and tell him? And I don't know how big
Wasserman was at that time as well, like you're in
l a u c A basketball super hot. Um, would
(26:51):
you start interning during here's a he's sorry, here's a question. Yeah,
why do you think, um, why do you think more
guys don't have the mentality or the understanding or maybe
the value of that degree. I understand and respect that
(27:14):
the best, the best. You're gonna make so much money
for you an NBA player, But I just guys bounce
around schools now and it's like, there's there's a couple
of parts to it. There's one, there's the degree, but
there's two. There's the connection you make with the university
and you don't. You don't get that as a as
a grad transfer, and the place you leave you're not
(27:35):
really an a lumba and the place you go to
you're not really an alum of Like look, dude, you're
there for six seven months like that? Ain't that ain't
your school? You know? So? I mean I was lucky,
Like Oklahoma State's my school. I went to Notre Dame.
I love Notre Dame. I would love to have And
the reason the reason I went there is the connection
to the subway lumps. I thought I'd love to play
if I can't play. I'd love to broadcast or coach
(27:57):
all of it is, or be in business and all
that notre day unbelievable connection of a lumps um. But
but I don't. I don't really understand why so many,
so many, even even professional athletes, don't tell kids like, hey,
look at Todd's path and Todd's understanding of it that
(28:19):
maybe not even be an agent, but just using the
value of that degree of the connections at a university
in order to propel you for the rest of your life.
So this is purely a theory, right, because well hypotheses
then right, um is different from our generation because we're
(28:39):
getting older. We're gonna be old timers here pretty soon. Right.
The mentality of us playing it was pure, and not
saying it's not pure for all the guys now, but
it was sports. It wasn't entertainment. Now it's much more
synonymous with entertainment. So I'm not I'm not entertainment agent
(29:00):
or represent any actors or actresses or or even musicians
for that matter. But what I can imagine is how
many of them went to college as well before they
started acting. And my point being is, like athletes now,
their goal is to become a pro. So the quickest
path to becoming a pro it's not having that relationship
(29:22):
with the university or going there for four It's just different,
in my opinion, a different way of thinking than how
we thought because you weren't a one and done back
then to two and done that was that was quick
steph Baron. You know you usually went three or four years, right,
even Michael Jordan three years, you know Magic Bird like
(29:42):
all these guys that were even before us. It wasn't
the one and done or even now having um you
know the G League, I Nite program or overtime like
that wasn't there. I I understand that everyone's story is different, right,
totally respect that, okay. And so when you say is
(30:03):
it the right mentality the wrong mentality, You're gonna get
people that would say, well, you haven't grown up my shoes,
you don't know kids could go and play. I respect that, okay,
But isn't that the wrong aren't we is it the
wrong mentality? Like the truth is that this is this
is my honest bullef okay that the like our education
(30:24):
system at the high school and lower levels still stay.
There's still a great education disparity based upon where you
where you grow up, and what you put your background.
And the equalizer is the scholarship. That's the whole intent
of the whole The equalize right puts you on even
footing where you were not even footing when you came
up with your education in high school. And I guess
(30:46):
I don't there's there's there's just too many bad actors
in my opinion in basketball that it's not that they
want the kid to achieve. They want a little piece
of the they want a little piece of the action.
You know, they know because but but but I think
that's I just think I understand that's the new mentality.
I think it's the wrong mentality. I think it's the
(31:08):
anything really good is worth waiting for, working for. I
know there's exceptions. I know there's guys that don't need
four years of college, that don't need three years of college.
But what you think you don't need is the college basketball,
which you do need is everything else and and and
I just I think all of us soon to be
old timers, we get to like, well, it's the new generation.
(31:31):
You just gotta accept, do you or can you try
and find a way to gather enough of us to
go like, look, I get it, there's gonna be jail
and Green's, there's gonna be Kate Cunningham's. Those guys are freaks, okay,
But for the rest of everybody else, this is what
you need. This is the best thing for your rest
of your life. And that that mentality is a bad one,
you know what, Doug, It's all based on circumstance. Like
(31:52):
we could like Kobe didn't go to college, right, and
God rest his soul. But like if you if he's assuming,
Kobe continues on the path. This guy guy that didn't
step foot on college and had very successful right, and
it's a brilliant, stark individual. And but I tell you this,
like even when I step foot on campus with my
background um in education being a priority, it was intimidating.
(32:15):
I'll be honest with you. Like the pro the summer
program where you're having to produce papers and if you know,
you could have guys that go through high school want
to go to college, it's like, hold on, Like I
don't know if I could balance both. And you know,
it depends on the program where if you're working, you know,
practicing three hours and you know, lab had is practicing
(32:36):
three hours a day, then this hour of waits, then
you're getting pt. Then you need to get extra work in,
and then you got study hall. Like it's a it's
a tough load. So is it good or bad? I
don't know. Like I'm a I'm a proponent of college.
But at the same time, it's like, you know, it's
all relative to circumstance. Like my guy Josh Primo this year,
youngest guy in the draft. People were saying, why, you know,
(32:58):
why why are you going? Why are you doing in
the draft? You came off the bench the average under
ten points, and then here he is, He's a lottery pick.
And you know, can you argue that next year? You know,
god forbid, if there's an injury or something else, then
then people are being critical and saying you should have
left earlier. You should have left when you were projected higher.
So I look hindsights always. I'm a big data guy.
(33:23):
I say, I'm not the smartest guy in the room.
Let me look at the data. I could argue, going
back to the days of high school players turning pro
that the percentage of high school players that termed pro
had greater success than the ones that maybe saved four
years in college at the end of their career. If
you look back the Kevin Garden Nets, Jermaine O'Neil's right,
(33:45):
those guys were the more talented ones to begin with, right,
And it's the you know, my issues with the Angel
Collins is the Special Tel Bears, the guys who who
uh you know, did go and like the rest of
their life their left the left searching. It's a really
hard thing. Like the NBA is not responsible for the
rest of your life. Okay. So, um, so you get
(34:07):
done playing and you decided to go to law school?
What is what? What was where'd you go to law school?
What was that? What was that experience? Yeah, so, Doug,
it was all you know, it's funny. It was all
happening at the same time. So just to kind of recap.
So Wasserman was not in existent existence, tell him in
(34:29):
Associates was the precursor, right even before he was at
r and sold his company to SFX and joined David Fok.
I was there through all of that when I was
working there as an intern for three years. So by
the time by the time I'm going into my senior year,
I had actually an extra year of eligibility. I had
shoulder surgery and I did not want to play out
(34:52):
my fifth year, so I actually left. I took nine
classes of summer school to graduate, uh quicker, while my
scholarship still lasted and one class and fall. So I
started working for arn uh you know, full time as
I'm going to class to get ready for law school.
So because every agent at Arns Practice did the same thing.
(35:15):
Bob Myers was there. Bob was at Loyola right working
while working for arned to then become an agent. Um,
you know, Joe Wolf all the age. Rob Polinka was there,
he was already an attorney and in law school. So
you know we were loaded. I mean, Warren McGarry was there.
Aren't tell him. Uh, Bob Myers, Rob Polinka, bad fouche
H and Neil Allsha was doing the pre draft pre
(35:38):
draft with Tim Gergert. So you've got five guys. We're
running NBA teams, are owning the NBA Summer League about office.
And here I am at nineteen through one with the firm.
So I was I was there's only two law schools
because my plan was to be there working as an
agent and going to school. There's only two law schools
in southern California, that's low Ola Merrimont in Southwestern to
(36:01):
have a part time program where you could go to
school at night and and still work during the day
that were accredited law schools. Right, and this is post
nine eleven, So the competition in law school was thick
in terms of you know, taking your l SATs and
and applying and going to the schools you want. So
I'm in law school and um, I actually had I
(36:24):
left ARN and I was in crisis management for a
big crisis management firm in l A called Winner and Associates.
And probably about four months in in my first semester
of law school, that's when Baron reached out to me
and asked me to manage them. By the end of
that first year in law school, we're on a trip
in in uh in South in Central America, UM with
(36:48):
a rebuck tour, and I'm sick as hell. Doug like
I felt like I was gonna die. Literally, I don't
even remember Santa Domingo when we were part of that tour,
and I remember getting on the plane, I couldn't even
see straight. He was like, I want you to be
my agent. So, Um, I was twenty three turning twenty four,
and that that was the start of representing Barren. He
(37:08):
was my first client. Um, how were you treated in
the field? Always? You know, Baron's friend young you know
a number I was, you know, it's everyone was respectful
to my face, but Lord knows behind the scenes. And
because I have no gray hairs behind me, you know,
(37:31):
I was just recently graduated college. Uh, not too many
years prior. And I you know, I don't want to
say Baron was my client. He was more of a partner.
We just we had a partnership. He had He had
a he had a blueprint, as he would call it,
and I was there to execute. How did he it
(37:51):
felt like it was always I know, Cash Warren, he
was really close. He's really mostly right. How did he
always seem to have this like plan, Like here's a
dude braised by his grandma south Central l A. Right,
but he always seemed to have a plan. You want
to do movies and entertainment, not just and now blessed
as an amazing basketball player? Was that you and him?
(38:14):
Was that something he had already established? Like where did
that come from? Baron already he always had that. I
think that's Baron's uh, you know, lens or perspective on
the world growing up in in South Central and then
going to Crossroads in Santa Monica. Baron Baron is a
phenomenal one. He's a trendsetter, Doug, but he's I tell you,
he's a phenomenal talent evaluator, you know, in terms of
(38:36):
like you could talk to people that he's crossed across
paths with in business that have either worked in partnership
with him or worked for him. A lot of those
people have moved on to uh, you know, executive positions
and entertainment, uh, you know myself even you know, running
my own agency and rep continue to represent players. You know,
Cash is a serial entrepreneurs. So Baron has always just
(38:59):
been good at identifying, you know, talented young people as
he's progressing his career that have moved on to you know,
if they're not working alongside him, moved on to bigger
and even greater things. So and that's a that's a
talent in itself. I think, yes, No, it's it's just
like it's no different than to be a to be
a you know, a GM, to be a coach. To
(39:21):
be an agent, you gotta be able to evaluate talent
and see, Okay, in two years, this guy is going
to be this with the right you know, putting the
right position. It's an amazing gift, gift to have. So
you're representing who is your second club, Trevor Reza. The
following year, you know, Trevor was he was eighteen coming
out of u C l A average twelve and seven.
(39:44):
No one anticipated him leaving. He was gonna leave. I
ended up representing Trevor, getting him drafted to the Knicks.
What was it? What was that like? Um, it was great.
Trevor was great. You know, Trevor and I are still
friends now. Um it was I tell you man, we
were fearless. It was kind of crazy. I looked back, like,
(40:05):
what the hell were we doing? Because we don't they
like you're using we're using common sense or for me,
it's like trial and error. But we we prepped. You know, Ricohins,
who's still a best friend of mine, who's one of
the best player development coaches. He put Trevor through player
development for the draft process, and uh, you know, Trevor
ends up playing extremely well in the in the l
(40:28):
A Summer League at the time. This is a precursor
Vegas and you know Isaiah Thomas took him. Uh. It's
a funny story I still laugh about. With Isaiah. My
first contract negotiation was was interesting because I was completely
prepped for it. But you're not prepped for Isaiah Thomas
(40:48):
or somebody that you know what I mean. Yeah, plus
your you grew up in l A in the eighties.
He was awesome, but I hate him. And he has
this in the guys that are the starts and you
know this, like we've been around the guys that they
have an aura to them. They just do right, they
(41:11):
have it or okay, so still with them. No, no,
well I sat down with them. I think Isaiah was
testing me. This is post Summer League and m and
Isaiah asked to meet me at the Four Seasons in
Beverly Hills, but not at like nine am or ten am,
seven am, because Isaiah knew I was young. So let's
say I think it was a test. Let's see if
(41:32):
this guy shows up on time. I was there. I
think probably am Is mom was there with him initially,
and then we sit down and talk. But the funny
thing is I always say this in negotiations to their
strength and numbers. Right, if if you and I are
negotiating against each other, Doug and as you by yourself
and I have two other people with me, attorneys and
(41:52):
other experienced people, their strength naturally in numbers. So in
that negotiation, we started the talks in l A. He
goes back to New York and now they have the
you know, the lead counsel for the Knicks, and they
have me on speaker phone negotiating. Which which was Uh?
I sit back and think about that conversation. Uh, there
(42:14):
was some curveballs thrown at me that I handled. But
more more than anything that intimidation tactics. I think I
held my own at least Isaiah said I did, and
I got a good deal for Trevor. When was the
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like like for Trevor? What is it like for a
guy who's a client at a very young age to leave,
to leave you? What's that? What's that feeling like to
leave me as a as a agent? Yes? Like who
when I mean inevitably? Yeah? What is that? What is
that like? From your perspective? Oh man? It was. It
was like losing your first, your first love, like your
(45:10):
your first you know, like a girl breaking up with
you in high school, right your first life, like it hurts.
I was like, God, I'm not going to be able
to survive as an agent, Like it's over. My reputation
is done, X, Y and Z and I countless stories
Doug where it's just like you figure it out, you
learn from it, you pick yourself back up, and you
keep moving forward. But that was devastating. But in hindsight,
(45:33):
you know, based on how green I was in certain areas,
not in the negotiations or preparation. It was more just
life experience. In terms of guiding him, I don't fault
him for making that change at the time when you
now the professionality you've been in for twenty years against
super successful um better worse. Different In terms of recruiting players,
(45:59):
the experien it's lucky, it's it's it's much better because
I don't waste time. I'm much more efficient for me.
It is because Doug got I'm a big believer, and
I tell my staff this is I don't I don't
sugarcoat things. I don't. I'm not I'm not selling anything
that I don't think I could deliver on. So the
client stepped buy into what I'm selling as a service.
(46:21):
Are the guys I'm supposed to be representing, and look,
those guys are experiencing success. I tend to evaluate talent
for what I could develop them into. So, you know,
you look at a Pascal Siakam. You know, Pascal wasn't
supposed to be a first round It wasn't supposed to
be an All Star or a max player, but he's
those things. You know, Tom Thomas Bryant second round pick,
(46:43):
you know, wave by the Lakers, and now he's the
starting center. He just turned twenty four. I think Thomas's
position to earn twenty to twenty five million per year
next year, if not greater once he recovers from his nation. Okay,
so so go back Pascal. Okay, I called pascals tournament
game Mexico State. His his coach. Uh. You know, Margaret
(47:03):
is like my brother's best friend in the business. Okay,
if you told me that this is how good he
could be, I would be like, when did you first
see Pascal? I saw him at in Bakersfield, playing against Bakersfield,
And you know, I when I evaluate talent, it's like,
(47:24):
is he really six nine six ten? What's his body type?
Can you shoot the ball does he have touched? You know?
And I could tell those things even if he's not
shooting jumpers at the free throw line. And then how
good Earth's feet? What's his athleticism, and like what does
he do well? And then the other component and Doug,
here's the thing is you you would not have thought
I was crazy if you're in the gym every day
(47:46):
watching him like I am. So you you have a
basketball pedigree as well. That's the big thing that people
forget is I'm in the gym every day watching the
development of my guys, doing my calls, like how you
are right now, I'm doing my calls in the gym,
So I'm watching the ascension of their development. So it's
by the end of the summer three months, if I'm
(48:06):
watching Pascal compete at a high level against Paul George
lebron or or Chris Paul or James Harden and those guys,
I'm starting to a you know, an earshot away hearing
them talk about Pascal. It's easy for me to know
where what direction my guys going in terms of his development.
But if you're if you're on outside looking in saying, oh,
this guy is from New Mexico State or you know,
(48:28):
I don't know this guy or i've seen him play once,
I don't know, but you're not seeing his his development.
Then I could see how somebody may think I'm crazy
or biased to my client opposed to actually seeing where
there are What what is it? You know your role,
you're so you get I mean, look one of the
one of the sales and you tell if I'm wrong.
(48:49):
Is you have a great, strong relationship with your clients.
It's a partnership, it's a friendship. It's more than just hey,
I'm gonna get your next deal. Right, Okay, So Pascal
struggles in the playoffs. Right, here's a young guy. It's
the highest level of the NBA is different. What what's
that like for you to deal with knowing what he
(49:09):
has in them but also knowing the reality of in
play as well as as he as he can as
the agent but also the partner and the friend. What
does that experience? It's being honest. I gotta be honest
with him, and and it's also bringing in, um, you know,
some other stories or examples of other players, because every
all great players go through adversity, every single one. We
(49:32):
can't name one that didn't struggle at some point on
their path to maybe be being you know, taking it
up and notch to greatness and and having that level
of consistency, even you know Lebron, not saying Pascal is
is Lebron, but you know Lebron has gone through it
or Steph has gone through it. All the great players
go through it. It's how they handle that adversity and
(49:53):
come out on the other side. So for me having
those conversations with Pascal, it's not sugarcoating it. It's like, hey,
you need to get your wrestler, let's go get some
extra reps in, or this is all part of the process,
like it's okay, let's get back to work in the
off season. So it's not and then actually not just
saying things but backing it up as an agent with
(50:15):
a plan of action for them to take to get better.
But it's never yeah, hey, it's everybody else's follower. You're
the victim and X, Y and Z. It's like, no,
let's look at it from all angles. Understand this business
and what it is. Let's understand what your role is.
Because Pascal's path is is a is a is an
unconventional one, if we look at it from NBA All
(50:38):
Star standards is this wasn't a guy that's supposed to
be an All Star. He came out of nowhere. So
him being thrust into a leadership role as an All
Star Max player, that's all new to him. He's the
youngest of six, right, so we understand family dynamics as well.
He's learning and being more comfortable as in his skin
in terms of leadership role. So it's it's literally coaching
(51:00):
him through that. It's talking to the team and management.
You know, in some cases even Nick Nurse about those
things to bring it to his attention. And then you
know it's a partnership with the team understanding his success
is a team success. Pascal success is what was my own.
So for me it's again I always say relationships outside
looking in could be contentious, or you can look at
(51:23):
us a part as a partnership and and make it
make sense so that both sides benefit. You know, whatever
it is, whatever it is in terms of outcomes, we
want turn here, go to law school. You know, probably
skipped the step that even you want to skip and
starting with Baron, you know, before you finished doing what
(51:46):
you want to do. Um, but if somebody wants to
be you, what, how would you like? There's a college
basketball player out there was like, and I like, I
love this game, I love the sport. What what would
you what would you recommend to them as the first
step in trying to see if they like the process
of being an agent. Yeah, they would recommend a credible
(52:10):
internship with a credible firm, because we're we're all judged
by a resume um and you want to learn and
pick up those good habits or see great agents at
work to understand their habits or what it entails. Oftentimes,
I have young people that reach out to me and says,
you know, have said, hey, I've interned here, I've worked
in sports, And then I say where, And it may
(52:34):
not have been a credible firm in which I know,
they may not have picked up great habits in terms
of what it takes to be an agent. I think
most people get it confused now that hey, if I
have a player, I could just go get certified and
I know how to be an agent, or I'm an
agent all of a sudden, Like that's is disrespectful to
be honest with you, Like there's an art and a
(52:56):
there's a there's an art to being an agent for
one understanding the business and what it entails, and then um, yeah,
you want to surround yourself with great people that have
had success being an agent because we're fiduciaries of our clients.
M Um, you mentioned Rob who you worked with. You
mentioned aren't um Leon Rose now running a team? Like?
(53:20):
Is that is that the dream? Is that the gold
is there? Is there any part of you that says
I love what I'm doing, But man, I would love
to run the team and rebuild something. I'm naturally a builder.
That's why I'm running my own company. If that opportunity
presented itself, I would I would look at it. Obviously,
(53:41):
my clients are family for me, so it's a conversation
I would have have with them as well and my family.
But I mean that could always be interesting because I
don't know about you, Doug in terms of you know,
growing up as an as an athlete is like I
love being a part of a team. Like there's nothing
better than that, you know, Um, you know, having um
(54:02):
colleagues or having um you know associates or people that
you're looking in the same direction building towards, you know,
at least in sports and building towards a championship, so
that aspect always intrigues me. For me on on the
company's side, is the same thing as like, uh, you know,
as building towards our client's personal success or in some
(54:24):
ways we're even sharing in the championships, you know, even
as recently for me with Pascal or even Caban Looney.
Right now, here's the here's the you. You mentioned your honesty.
Do you cheer for other agents to succeed because like,
if they succeed, that means, hey, this is a good plan.
Or did you not want agents to succeed? What? What's
(54:46):
what's the experience like of watching other people who have
done what you've done play? You know, Bob obviously has
had an incredible amount of success. Rob's had success, is
won the title. Do you cheer for those guys, um,
because as that allows maybe that path open up for you.
You know, I wouldn't necessarily say cheer, but there's a
(55:07):
tremendous amount of respect I have because conversations come up
sometimes where people are critical of other agents and their
work or even their transition, and I'm I'll be protective
of other agents or other guys because a lot of again,
a lot of people don't understand what goes into our jobs.
And for an agent to have success for extended period
(55:28):
of time, especially uh, managing a you know, high level talent,
it's not easy, you know. And people can make the assumption, oh,
well that guy was a lottery pick already or he
was a superstar. Well you gotta deliver for those guys too,
that the expectations are greater as well. So I give
a lot of credit to those agents or even those
(55:49):
guys that make the transition to the front office. And
and and I say, in some ways, those guys are
better prepared. And that's not taken away from the front
This exects that haven't been agents. But you're every day
you're deal dealt with the set of circumstances that you
didn't know was coming the day before, right Because ten percent,
(56:12):
you know, if if I'm looking at my business or
my role, you know, ten percent of it is probably
contract negotiations. The other nine are managing the client and
managing the curveballs that no one see. If if I'm
doing a good job managing the curve balls that nobody's
reading about or no one else has seen, you know,
and you know that's it. So I in some ways, I,
(56:36):
like I said, I'm not. I can't say I'm outright cheering,
but I'm When I see them, I pay my respect
and acknowledge the work that they're doing and and want
them to be successful. I think there's enough for everybody. Yeah,
that that's I mean, that's obvious. I believe that to
be true. And I also think that's why. You know,
I'm sure you champion your own kind of young guys, right,
(56:57):
there's there's plenty. Um. You mentioned your own firm. How
hard is that your own thing? This is your own thing.
It's extremely hard. It's extremely hard, especially for me when
I when I went back after I left B d
A in two thousand thirteen, I didn't have a marquee
client to uh, I guess you could say, to to
(57:22):
use to gain other clients. So for me, I had
to change my approach to the business to identify um
undervalued talent that I could develop into those UM players
that I thought that could be very successful. So you know,
when I left in thirteen, I had to In two
thousand fifteen, I had Cavan Looney and even Norman Powell
(57:45):
that that I got drafted, followed by the next year
sixteen Pascal Siakum picked up March and gor Toad as
a client, seventeen Thomas Bryant and then just kind of
just continue to build on momentum. But at the time,
if you look back in hinds, like those guys weren't
Marquis guys I had. That's a lot in their player development,
(58:06):
not just in the pre draft process but every offseason
to help get them to where they're at in terms
of their second contracts. Also, though again falling back on
your relationships, right Van Looney at u c l A,
a place that you've played, and of course he gets
drafted by Bob Meyers, a guy who went to us
l A and you work with the firm. Right this,
It doesn't mean that there's anything elictit, but business is business.
(58:29):
It's about relationships and who you know. And if you're
telling Bob Bob can play like you know, that's different
than an agent. He doesn't have a long standing relationship
with an understanding. That is that a fair way to
look at it. I think it's fair, But you know, Bobby,
regardless of relationship, Bob is you know and obviously this
is as in their run and uh you know, uh
(58:53):
Gavan fell in the draft for for medical reasons. You know,
it's me saying that to Bob. I think he's not
in the moment of drafting Cavan as much as him
thinking about the relationship long term because of of our dynamic. Um,
because Bob is gonna have to pick the best player
for the Golden State Warriors at any I'm not because
(59:17):
I'm his the player's agent, but because that's the best
talent available. So in some ways it works hand in hand.
But you know, it's I'd like to think that my
relationship with any team is I'm not I'm not one
of the bullshit. I'm just gonna tell it how it
is and I and I love that process because I
guess through experience, whether again Josh Primo, I could call
(59:40):
a team when he's projected in the second round and say, guys,
look like Pascal or lack of Thomas, Bryan or Cavan.
Where I'm telling you, guys, the talent that I'm seeing
and you guys know what I'm gonna do. This kid
is going to be a superstar. And the ones that
believe believe, and the ones that, don't you know. I
remind him in the few true when I have the
(01:00:00):
next player, there's there's satisfactors, or that's the chip on
my shoulder dog and maybe that's a former athlete. To me,
it's like I told you so, so you don't believe me,
I'll do it again. UM. I had a my TV
and radio agent um for five or six years. My
(01:00:22):
second agent was guy named Nick con Nick now runs
w W Right and he was at CIA. He was
very powerful, brilliant guy. And Nick used to tell me
all the time, he's like, being an agent is a
young man's job. It's a grinder's job. Fifty is about
like he's like, fifties about kind of the cutoff. Okay,
so you're in your early forties. You've been really successful. Um,
(01:00:46):
what is what are your thoughts on the next five
ten years? For you? Personally? It's, um, you know, I'm
always thinking when you know, it's it's continuing to help
develop my current roster of clients, helped groom the next
generation of agents that are working with me, because that's
a that's a big part of my I guess my
(01:01:07):
ethos and businesses. I it's not just helping my clients go.
It's helping the people that are working for me, are
working alongside me grow. I think there's no greater satisfaction.
And you know, whether within my company or you know,
you know, helping them grow their wings to where they're
an executive somewhere else and having tremendous success. Like I
value that. UM. But for me, the next eight to
(01:01:30):
ten years, it's just see where the industry evolves into.
Look at n I L being introduced. Um. You know,
I'm very big into sports science and investments in sports
science for athletes. UM. I think with technology, that's going
to impact our industry tremendously like it has every other
sector of business and finance in other areas. So for me,
(01:01:53):
it's the satisfaction I get. Honestly, Doug is not going
along with the status quo of how things have always been.
Is like, how can I disrupt a business that people
say is not scalable from a business perspective because it's
a service business. But how can I introduce new technologies
in a way that we've never seen before because quite frankly,
(01:02:16):
the business has been done the same way from agents
the last forty or fifty years. Starting with McCormick in
IMG to where Now, if you're I think wise and
and um and diligent about the technologies that you can
integrate for clients in their development off the court in
terms of sports science, but also on how we represent them,
(01:02:37):
I think, you know, it can be interesting for the
future because if you're not adding value to your clients
now because dot we haven't even talked about like, look
at the contracts these guys are signing, right, Uh. Steph
Curry signed I think two oh seven on an extension
over four years. With the new media rights deal coming
in in twenty four is expirations seventy billion dollars, the
(01:03:00):
current deals four billion. And if we go back to
when that influx of money came in, we saw the
level of contracts, how that was impacted, right, seventy five billion,
three times more. I did some projections. Rookie like Josh
Primo could be eligible to sign probably an extension as
a twenty one year old between two hundred and fifty
(01:03:23):
and three hundred million dollars depending on a Max or
Super Max player. Right. So for me, it's also looking
into the future forecasting because now you're talking about athletes
having their own family office and raise their level of
sophistication to a whole different level. Uh even forget off
(01:03:43):
the court earnings. Just they're on court earnings. So for
me it's also you know, how do you I'm not
waiting until that happens. It's what mechanisms or what services
can I put in place now to make sure that
I could address all the needs of my client. It's
in the future when they are earning that level of income. Uh, Todd,
(01:04:06):
You've been so gracious with your time due. It's really
really amazing. It's been fun, has been good. I really
appreciate it. Let's do it in person. And I'm a
fan of Primo, so I can't wait to see what
he does this year in San Antonio. Fixture years and
thanks again for joining us. No, I appreciate it, Doc,
and look forward to the next time. Pretty amazing stuff, right,
(01:04:29):
I mean, just the the ability at nineteen years old ago, like, hey,
let me pivot and think about becoming an agent and
then using the connections that you have established at U
C l A to build really a business, and then
breaking out and building the business on your own. All
those challenges all right in here. I thought you'd love that,
and that's the type of guy who you will see
(01:04:52):
whether you talked about being a super agent or you
talk about evolving into a guy running a team. He
is such a wherewithal and is so respected in the sport.
I thought he'd just be a good listen he was.
I'm I'm fast, and I want to grab him back
and talk for another hour about other who guys that
that he's discovered. In the meantime, remember the Doug Gotlip
Show is daily three to six Eastern twelve three Pacific,
I Heart Radio, Fox Sports Radio app, I Heart Radio app, etcetera, etcetera.
(01:05:15):
Wherever you listen to oport Radio, we can also download
that as a podcast. In the meantime, if you have questions,
comments at Gottlieb Show, Twitter or Instagram. The best way
to get ahold of me, I'm Doug Gottlieban. This is
all ball. Get right to the romance and find the
(01:05:49):
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Host
Doug Gottlieb
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