All Ball - Pt. 1 Big 12 /SEC Challenge Reaction with SEC Network Analyst Jon Sundvold + SEC Hoops Rise, Norm Stewart Stories - The Doug Gottlieb Show

Episode Transcript
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All Ball with Doug Hey, what up? Welcome and I'm
Doug Gottlib. This is All Ball U, the podcast that
everybody is talking about in hoops and in life, where

(01:22):
what I try and do is we talked about some
of the topics in the sport and then we get
a guest on and we talked about their life. This
one is no different John sun Bold and I'm just
so you know he's not listening to me right now.
John's is a little bit of my idol one as
a player who's a great one. He won four straight
Big Eight titles at Missouri, was a first round Traft

(01:43):
pick of the Seattle SuperSonics, and after that he went
into broadcasting after being a player that we're not even
going to get into the broadcaster side. In the first
two episodes of this spot, it's so good, but it's more.
Here's a kid who was born kind of up South
Dakota to Nebraska, moved around, moved to an area outside

(02:04):
of Kansas City when he was I think in seventh grade.
He'll get to that and became a great, great player.
And what was it like playing for Norm Stewart, What
was it like playing in the Big Gate, What was
it like becoming an NBA draft pick? And what was
it like playing in the NBA. There's some incredible stories, uh,

(02:24):
in these first in these these first couple of pots,
so we I also want to get to. I was
at the Kentucky Kansas game. I called it for Westwood One,
and I think, I know Kentucky is better than Kansas.
I don't think there are twenty points at that happened
in Kansas. I didn't like the game plan from Kans, Like, look,
if you're gonna play against Kentucky, on made baskets. And granted,

(02:46):
part of it is their Kentucky has become very good defensively.
You gotta make some baskets, but you need to pressure
to slow them down. And you give Chevie Wheeler a
chance to push the ball and get to the free
throw line or below, or he throws that ball up
the court and they get to shoot and scoreing quick.
They just they play a great style for their personnel.

(03:08):
They'll shoot quick. If not, they'll get into some ball
screen action with Shibay he's a monster inside. Um, he's
using his depth really well. He's got guys bought into
their role. Whereas I still think Kansas is I know
they were ranked five, they're not the fifth best team
in the country. Text should have gotten him at home
on Monday night. I still think Kansas is uh feeling

(03:30):
the the the effects of that long nd C investigation
where it's hurt them in recruiting because they basically have
David McCormick and they're just a limit. You have one
freshman big coming up the bench and he's an athlete,
a project, you know. I mean, they're they're still not
nearly as deep as they need to be, and I
think Bill knows that, and he's just kind of trying

(03:53):
to figure out who the third guard is gonna be
and when, um, when when your starters don't play well,
there's not a lot of answers on that bench. But
I Kentucky is better than Kansas. Kentucky might well be
the best team in the country. Then they remember they
were beating Auburn for ty ty Washington got hurt. But
I want to get the opinion of of John Sunfold,
who covers the SEC for the SEC network and covers

(04:16):
Kentucky and saw them. We had a long talk before
and after the Texas A and M game, So let's
do that. Let's let's get some SEC Big twelve reaction
and then we'll get into the John Sunfold story. UM, okay,
I want to do We're gonna work backwards to your story,
but we just we came out of SEC Big twelve. Okay,

(04:39):
and we'll do a little timeliness here before we get
to the meat of what I want to get to. But, um,
your reaction to the weekend where Bama beats Baylor and
Kentucky goes in and kicks the hell out of Kansas

(04:59):
at Kansas and and the rest of the challenge we
can kind of talk about. I mean, Auburn Oklahoma is
going to be a mispatch regardless, you know, and some
of the other ones don't matter. But when the top
two teams go in and get smacked like that, Um,
what I hate the conference versus conference thing, but there

(05:21):
is something to what's building in the SEC. What's kind
of your thoughts after watching this weekend? Well, I think
you're right about what's what's building in the SEC because
of of what this SEC stands for right. They just
keep pushing the envelope, Uh, bigger better. You know, when

(05:41):
you take these kind of games, I always wonder which
road team will win of the whole thing, which which
team could go on the road. So if I if
I had a handicaped beforehand, I said, okay, maybe Baylor,
But I didn't pick Baylor to win. Maybe l s
U two TCU but home court. Maybe Kansas State at

(06:03):
all miss two similar teams whole court. Heill. So now
you take the two the two big dogs, right, the
two big ones, Kentucky at Kansas. The Kentucky team we
saw is a Kentucky team that's is as good as
anybody we've seen them. Uh, they've done it against North Carolina,

(06:24):
they've done it against Tennessee where they're if all their
guys are healthy and they're doing what they do, they
can they can win the whole thing. And that's what
we saw in Kansas. So surprising, Yeah, because it's Kansas.
You've been there. I've been there. Nobody goes in there
and does that, but Cows team did it. So you know,

(06:44):
anytime these matchups, all I do is look for which
road team can win. That's the whole thing because most
of the time hold hold the home teams hold their court.
You know, when you started with the SEC network, I
think the league was very different. And now now the
level of investment I would say in coaches, I also
think in facilities. Um, I'm guessing in resources. I don't

(07:08):
know why. Why do you think it's changed so much
here kind of last five years where there's a tremendous
depth of quality programs in the league. You know, Doug,
there was an emphasis let's say five or six years
ago too. You know what, if the SEC is great
in football, at softball and baseball and golf and on

(07:28):
and on and on, why aren't they basketball? It doesn't
have to be just be Kentucky. So every school has invested.
You see the coaches that have been hired every place right,
and the facilities. When you put a good coach that's
been somewhere, that's going to the Final four and comes
into a new place, uh it. I'm not gonna say

(07:50):
rejuvenates a fan base because mostly some of these places,
it starts a fan base. What Bruce Pearl has done
at Auburn, what Rick Bard's re nighted at Tennessee, because
they've they've had it in the past years. Um, when
you do that the fan basis, it's a little bit,
a little bit like the old Big Eight, the Big Twelve,

(08:11):
where you knew every home court was probably pretty good,
probably hard to win, even as down as some teams
arenest league. Missouri is not very good. George is not
that good right now. But you don't walk in there
and win. I mean, Alabama goes up to Missouri and
Council Martin's team was tough and physical and they beat him.

(08:31):
So it's this league now has become what Big twelve
is and what the Big Ten is, where no, there's
no easy game. You go on the road, you better
be ready. Um, okay, let's let's let's discuss Missouri before
getting to your Missouri career. Is it? I think the
wrong league? Is it? Why do you think they've that? Like,
I think they're in wrong league In football as it's

(08:54):
really really hard when you know in your kind of
recruiting sir conference, it's just not enough players, right, not
not enough players, not a depth of players. And then
if you're gonna go into where the players are, why
would you go there as opposed to go into Florida
or Georgia or Obama or Auburn or whatever it's now

(09:17):
you're fighting for the second and third year. It's hard,
you know, And if they're in the I think the
Big Ten would have been hard for him to the
Big Ten. Similarly, like Incredible Investment, like the Big twelve
fit in that they were closer to the top of
the food chain resource wise. It wasn't the depth of
overall talent. And yes, early on they did well in
the SEC, but they would have done well in the

(09:37):
in the Big Big Big twelve as well. Okay, so
but that's not that's not basketball basketball. You got St. Louis,
You've got Kansas City, you got the new facility. Why
hasn't it hit in so long? You know, I can't
answer that because it should hit, right, you know, the
tradition of the years Missouri was good and the stretches

(10:00):
or it was good and they've got the players in
the states. Um, you don't get every home state kid,
but you sure can get seven out of ten over
the years, right, and every other year there's probably a
Pro out of St. Louis, or every third or fourth
year of Pro out of Kansas City. You have to
get those kids and the commitment by whether it's the

(10:21):
current coach or former coaches. If they couldn't get it,
didn't get it done. Uh. And and that's gonna probably
weigh on Console right that that the fan base looks
and says, Okay, why why is that kid from St.
Louis going to wherever they're going? You know, And that's
just that's the way it is on most programs. You
can't let the in state and you know today kids talk.

(10:43):
So if you've got a kid from St. Louis and
his buddy is in Atlanta, right, you might get them.
They didn't build on the Porter brothers. Uh. Didn't quite
recruit from those two, even though you know, Michael played
what one game was hurt and played at the end
of the year two games, SEC Tournament one, n C
double a. Um, they didn't really build on any of that.

(11:07):
So that's where the struggle is. There's also look when
we went into the Hearns Center that places a zoo. Yeah, okay,
and I know you have to end like Oklahom stated,
is the same problem right where you build this beautiful
building a little bit too big. You know, they have
other factors with the thunder I think when the thunder
were good, I think every game being on TV. But

(11:30):
games were on TV back when they were in the
Big twelve. Games are on TV early on the s SEC.
Is it just simply you gotta win and then people
will come or is there something else that's keeping people
from getting in their cars because that used to be
I mean when Norm was there that that was an
incredible environment, incredible and it's just not even though that

(11:53):
facility is awesome. Well the Missouri it's proven it can be.
Uh with Kim English and his group is here with
Frank Kye, that year was off the chart, I mean
off the chart as far as noise now, like the
Herd Center, because that was built differently. I would think
you gotta win. I mean I watched most fan bases
across the country. If you win, people kind of show up.

(12:15):
If you don't, it's easy to watch it. I mean,
it's easy to stay home. That's that's just the reality
of it. I do think coaches now become more marketers
than they've ever been. Right the sales guys that go
on campus and sell their product and are in the
community that sell their product seem to be getting people.
And if you don't do that, then then you better
win at a high percentage or oh people, uh, they

(12:38):
kind of lay back a little bit. Let's go back
to your original thought of the older generation in Missouri
are used to seeing if Missouri played I was staying.
Now they played them coming up, but they play at
iwa stay, But if I would stay, it was coming
here or Oklahoma or Oklahoma State. Older people might go, oh,
we remember those guys. That's that, that's the thing. That's

(13:00):
the thing that that I did the last time I
think Kansas State played there it was came English this
year and Case State beat him. And my point I
made then my plot main which is like you can't
make up history. You know, you can't just create Oh,
Arkansas's arrival now correct? You know that you played Kansas

(13:21):
State for a hundred years. Everybody talks about the Kansas game,
and the Kansas game was big. Which played Kansas State
for a hundred years, played Iowa State for sixty eight years,
played Oaklahoma State and and and there's there's two parts
to a fan base which are important. The students who
are loud and crazy. You gotta get them. But then
there's the that older generation because the people in the

(13:42):
middle with lives and kids and lives, but they're only
going to show up for the big ones, right. But
the old people, they show up for the traditional ones.
And I think cutting out that tradition, specifically in the
sport of basketball, I think it really has made it
a much more challenging proposition to get people in the build. Well,
if you think that there is not a team that

(14:04):
comes to Missouri Ana that people dislike I mean Missouri.
People don't dislike Kentucky, they don't dislike Vanderbilt. There's not
a team that comes that they go, oh, we hate
these guys. Now Arkansas, because it's a border state, you
can make up some things. Maybe you get a fighter
two in football and maybe get a fighting you know,
it's slowly grow, but there's no hatred there. There's absolutely

(14:26):
no If Kentucky shows up, people will show up because
they want to see Kentucky, right, they want to see
the big dudes. Who are these guys are gonna be
pros again? We could schedule Oklahoma State next week and
the older generation will go, hey, let's go see the Cowboys.
And some would think that Eddie Sutton is still alive
in coaching, right, they because they haven't paid attention. But

(14:48):
but the name is the name, and that's you know, generationally,
it'll take a long time for Missouri to have any
kind of rival like that. But again, if they were good,
if Missouri was good in basketball and they filled it up.
What happens when you're good, is it you'll naturally get
rivalries because you'll have unbelievable battles, whether again, whether it's

(15:09):
a fight, whether it's a technical, whether it's a made
shot at the buzzer that shouldn't accounted. That's what starts
at all. And it is funny. Do you think about,
Like to this day, if I were to go to
an Oklahoma State fan and I would say Missouri, they
would say, God, I hate Jason Sutherland. Hate that guy. Yeah,
that guy right, here's a guy and and you know,

(15:31):
you go to Missouri fan and say Oklahoma he said,
eduard O Nahara, I can't stand that guy. Billy Tubbs
didn't like him, Kelvin Sam's didn't like him. He's a cheater,
you know, like it really and it's amazing, Like I
understand the financial aspects of it. I get it. You're
making a lot more money but you're spending a bunch
more money in order to play in that in that

(15:54):
in that sand box, and you're cutting off a hundred
years of history. All right. Speaking of that history, did
you grew up in your Kansas City? Right? That's that's
where you. I know you weren't born in Kansas City,
but you grew up in. Yeah. I moved there to
seventh grade. I grew up in. I was born in
South Dakota, so I'm the youngest poor boys. Uh. Lived
there until third grade. We my my mom and dad.

(16:14):
We moved to Nebraska outside of Lincoln for three years
third grade to sixth grade. When I lived outside of Lincoln, Nebraska,
I lived in Seward, Nebraska. The court Huster has won
two national championships in football, so I had big red
in my blood. Seventh grade, start seven, I moved to Missouri.
So really I was a Missouri kid, not a Missouri fan.
I was a Big Eight fan. Uh from a basketball standpoint,

(16:38):
followed Nebraska just because as a football fan. But I
was a Kansas State fan. Uh. In the history. What
if you go back, Lon Krueger was playing in the
early seventies when I was a young young kid. They
had two guards, Mike Evans and Chuckie williams Uh in
the mid seventies. So I'm you know, ninth grade, tenth grade.

(16:58):
Let you know that's k State was phenomenal, So I
was probably a k State guy. In the games we
got on TV. He always had a Saturday afternoon game
and then after that game was the U c l.
A game. I mean that was kind of like every week, right,
So you became a u c l. A fan because
they were on every week. But the Big Eight game
would always be Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Kansas, Missouri, Kansas State.

(17:18):
It was. It was that, so I didn't grow up
a Missouri fan, even though I grew up on the
Missouri side of Kansas City. From Junior High on. Were
you only a Hooper or were you because because I
don't know if you know this, you know my did
you know my dad coach Lan? Yeah, as a freshman
and and then I think and then as a sophomore

(17:40):
on bar stoo whatever and Lan like people I don't
know if people know like it was a great baseball player,
drafted yeah in in baseball and was Big Eight Player
of the year. Um, so obviously a different era. But
were you a one or two or three sport? Dude? No,
I played, uh? I was really My favorite thing was track.
I was a track so but I played young us

(18:00):
to four boys. So I played football up until my
sophomore year. When we were freshman in high school. We
couldn't play up on the varsity, so I just played
freshman football, freshman basketball. Now, the end of my freshman year,
the varsity coach, because we were in separate building, came
and said, we're gonna put you on the varsity of
the last three games of the season and then the

(18:22):
district tournament. They weren't very good. The closest brother to me,
three years older, was a senior. I was a freshman.
So when the high school coach came and said we're
gonna put you on for the last three games, I
said no, thanks, because my I had They had three
senior guards that rotated being average. I don't mean it
in a bad way, but they were average. So he
was gonna take this freshman and start me and not

(18:46):
said no. I said no, I had a brother. My
brother was that that would have called that. Not only
would my brother been pissed, the two other seniors I mean,
they might have killed me. I don't know, so I
said no. So. So the reality was when I got
to be a sophomore, I did. I quit playing football,
but I was a track I was a track guy
from when I was a kid. I was a pull

(19:06):
balt vaulter. Yeah, yeah, And how about this. So I
grew up in a in a town Canton, South Dakota,
where my parents they're married at eighteen years old at
their first child. At can South Dakota was people, but
they had a football coach who was the track coach.
The sun Bull brothers. Four of us. Within six years

(19:28):
we were pull vaulting. I was pulled vaulting at the
age second grade. Third grade. You would go down to
the carpet store. They used to come in bamboo pole.
The carpet would be wrapped in bamboo pole. The carpet
guy would save us. The straightest bamboo pole you had,
you taped it up. My dad worked in the lumber yard.
You made standards. We landed on our feet on a mat.

(19:50):
In the backyard. You had a whole. We had a
pull ball pit. So I pulled vauted. Since I was
a kids, we get this. I moved to Missouri. Go
out for the track, and again it was very fast.
Go out for track, and the first day of track,
the coach talking about, okay, there's things like triple jump,
and there's a long jump, and there's a high jump,
and I'm sure no one's ever pulled all that, but

(20:10):
you know, maybe a couple of you and I, you know.
And I raised my hand, a skinny little kid, and
I said, yeah, I have pulled ball. And the guy said,
you've pulled all and I said yeah. He said with
what I said, a bamboo pole taped. Now, my older
brothers had pulled valled with a fiberglass pole, and they
were high school guys. My oldest brother Bob, who you
know is now in college, but he had pulled balled
in high school. So the guy said, you know, let

(20:32):
me see if you can pull ball. I'll give you.
Gave me a steel pole. Like a steel pole has
no gift. When he put a bar up at seven ft,
I run down stick the steel poll up very stiff,
but because it's it's speed, it's all speed. And then
going elevate up, I just fly over the seven ft
and he just like, my goodness. So I was running
in Junior Olympic events in eighth and ninth grade UM

(20:57):
and I remember I was at an event at Kansas Track,
Hey Track, and we got a call, my parents got
a call from a guy in l A. This was
in seventy six, So after the Bruce Jenner World Right
Grace Athlete in the World that we all watched, there
was a guy in l A that wanted to take
me my sophomore year to train me because of decathlon.

(21:18):
Obviously it's running and strength, but I was already doing
the skill events and it was fast and what I
needed to learn how to do was either shot put
on the discus or whatever part of their thing was.
Because I was I could run and so but anyway
we didn't. I didn't do that, and I was a
track guy up until my senior year. I couldn't because
I played in an All Star game in basketball in

(21:39):
Texas US All Stars versus the Texas All Stars. So
Isaiah and Ray McCoy and different guys were playing Clyde
Direxler in them, and I come back for my senior
track in the state of Missouri said you can't run track.
So but that was the end of my track career.
But was was your went fourteen I think fourteen three

(22:01):
is a sophomore genie. I got hurt my junior year
at tour a quad muscle in a district meet, so
that was kind of the That was kind of the
end of my track staff. Fox Sports Radio has the
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(24:56):
not ft evaluated. When did you know you had a
in basketball? You know? I don't, I don't know. I
can always play my my three brothers played junior college basketball,
and then my oldest Bob played in South Dakota State,
which then was Division two. So when you're when you're
in a small town, I thought that was my path.
My dad said, you guys are going to college. You're
paying your own way. But as a sophomore in Kansas City,

(25:20):
I was doing my thing, uh, becoming recruitable by maybe
smaller schools at the time. And then by my junior year,
I had already gone through that in Nebraska was calling
and Kansas State. In Kansas, I played out in Georgia. Millersville,
Georgia had a BC camp, uh and it was BC

(25:42):
All Star Camp, right yea, So Millville, Georgia. So I
went out there. Class of seven and nine is Dominique
and and the three big guys was Ralph Sampson, Sanboie
Stieve Stepanovitch who became my teammate, Isaiah and Paxson and
Byron Scott and Antoine cars and Worthy and Dominique. I mean,
it was an unbelievable class. So I went out there

(26:03):
and I played well. And then you never signed early.
You signed after your senior year. But but through the
junior year I was starting to be recruited by everybody.
So then you kind of I never thought I could play.
I never looked at that like I would play there,
like I would play at a level I never thought
about that. So okay, So you get home and now
people are recruiting you. Who was a case state at

(26:25):
the time, Jack Hartman? Okay, and uh, Jack didn't recruited
every He didn't go at least that was my dad's
stories is like, yeah, he wasn't. That wasn't He wasn't recruiting,
Like that wasn't his He would I'm not saying he
wouldn't offer and do the business and all that stuff.
It wasn't like he was at the camp taking notes

(26:46):
and showing up at your game at eight am just
to say so you were there. So okay, So it
was Kate, who are the schools? Well, I was really
more of it became more Midwest because I even though
there were there were contacts from the outside, that didn't
seem to be my world. So let's let's go. Arkansas
at the time was a powerhouse. They went to the
final four. My junior in high school, they went to

(27:09):
the final four. So yeah, Betty Sutton moncreef in those guys, Uh, Texas,
Abe Lemons was high on my list. Kansas was Kansas,
Kansas State, Missouri, Iowa, so it really became regional. Um
so wait wait did you have was there a conversation
with Abe Lemons? So like that this can we completely

(27:30):
divert the entire podcast right for people who haven't that
don't know basketball. A Lemons is anybody who you think
is quotable is at one level, and a Lemons is
seen as above like comedic level. Valvano before Valvano's sort
of um, but but that that kind of Oklahoma, super dry,
sarcastic wit. Did you did you? Is there a Lemon

(27:54):
story in there? Yeah? So Valvano for for right before
the Valvando recruited me, he was that, I don't know,
he sees me in Georgia. And again there's no cell
phones back in those days, right, so they would either
call your home or really they call your high school coach.
And I'll never forge, I'll never forget. And my high
school coach was in there and said, hey, there's a
guy on the phone, and so I go into It's

(28:15):
Jim Valvento and he said he said I'm Jim Voe,
Jim Valvano, and I own a college. I own a college,
and I'm thinking, you know, I don't know what he's
saying a college. I own a college, and I'm kind
of I don't know who you have. But they talked
about Jeff Ruling, etcetera eccepter. So that one, No, Abe Lemons,

(28:36):
here's what's Here's what's interesting. You had Eddie sent in
Arkansas that played a certain way and Abe played the
opposite way. Right, So Abe, Abe Lemons was they were
more undisciplined at Texas and they ran and shot it
and did whatever. They had a kid named Jimmy Creevax
who was a white guard who just came off picks

(28:57):
and just shot it. He just shot it. So they
would say in me the little tapes, uh, you know,
and said that you're cree backs. Just think you're cree backs.
You'ren run around and just shoot all the time. But anyway,
Abe came up and visited twice my hometown. My grandparents
were from South Dakota. Uh. My grandfather was an old

(29:17):
cowboy country owned a farm, big man and big barrel chested.
So when Abe came, my grandparents would come down for
about a month in the winter watch. My brother was
at a junior college in Kansas City. I was playing
in high school. They just watched these games because there's
their grandkids. So Abe comes. I think Abe talked to
my granddad for probably two hours. I went outside and

(29:40):
messed around with my buddies. Like Abe, he sold myke
my grandfather. That's the guy, like I mean, and then
he came on time to our gymnasium and people just
I mean, you know, he just he was funny. He
was good. It was funny. My first official visit ever
was University of Texas, which you know, for a visit
for a kid from small town. When you get to

(30:02):
that place, your eyes were you know, I mean, it's like,
my god, so, but you're from South Dakota, Nebraska. But
I thought you're in Kansa. Where are you in Kansas City?
Blue Springs, which is a suburb. It's east probably about
ten miles east of Arrowheads Stadium on. Somebody was much
smaller than right that. Yeah, it's it's kind of now

(30:23):
growing it, but it was smaller. Uh. I will say this.
My class high school class was the first one of
four hundred kids so it was kind of multiplying as
we were going. My brother three years ahead might have
had a hundred twenty kids in their class, so we
were kind of the first of the big classes. So say,
what do you remember about your visit? I couldn't believe

(30:44):
how pretty the girls were, how big the place was.
And I think it was the only visit I had
where the guy who the player that showed me around
for a while, he turned me over to an alumni
that showed me around for a while, and so so
the alumni who showed around. Uh. I was on the
same visit with um Lis South Thompson Well sal end

(31:09):
up going there, and Solasala from Cincinnati, I think. But
it was it was interesting because the alma was just
say here's how it works at Texas and then his
his his most important point was just beat Arkansas. That
that's what you need to do when you come here.
But no, it was big, It was eye opening. It

(31:31):
was eye opening. Um how did you turn down Kansas State?
If you grew up a Kansas State, then you know
it started growing. And the fact that UM here was
a wise move maybe by Norm Stewart. My brother Bob,
six years older than me. Uh was at South Dakota State,
was gonna go to law school and then decided to
go into coaching. I think he was one year grad

(31:52):
assistant there and he wrote letters to all the Big
eight schools and Norm hired him. And I might have
been a junior in high school then. Um Bob wasn't
allowed to recruit me from my mom and dad, but
you know he could. He could tell me a lot
of things going on with the program that no one
else could. And the reality was it got down to

(32:13):
really Missouri in Arkansas, Um, Arkansas. Here's here's another good one.
Arkansas in seventy nine, the first round of the n
C Double A Tournament, we're played on campuses and they
were playing at Allan field House. So mon Creef senior year,
I'm a senior high school. My dad and myself we
get two front row tickets right behind the bench. Arkansas beat.

(32:37):
That's a mistake. That's a mistake. It's a mistake for
the I guaranteed. I don't know if ever you've never
list my pod, I'll tell you tell you my my
visit that was like that, and and why I didn't
go there. Go ahead, go so but here's what's cool,
mon crief in Arkansas. I think they beat Weber State.
That's on my mind. But the next game was Indiana

(32:59):
State Larry Bird. So for a kid, uh, you know
when Bird walked out and they had to sheriff patrol
by him, I mean, it was pretty cool. Like you're like,
holy smokes, right, here's the real guy. So what was it?
What was it? What was the Larry Bird experience? Like,
what was he like in college? This is before me,
It's only I'm everything I know is is legend. What

(33:22):
what do you remember about watching Larry play? Well, because
because of what he was doing that year, right, they
were undefeated and he was the talk of the world,
and they weren't on a lot, but they were on
a little bit. But then here we got to see
him up close. It was it was probably the greatest
thing a kid could see because he was he was
bigger than life. Like, he wasn't some six six foward right,

(33:46):
He's six ten, six ten a half shooting it from wherever,
dominating a college game that most didn't dominate, not dominate,
He's dominated. He toyed with everybody. Uh and shoot, I
was in the first row just watching in admiring again,
that's right after watching Sydney Montcreef do his thing for Arkansas,

(34:07):
but in a different way. You know, Sydney was disciplined
and doing all this stuff, and Bird was just out
there chit chatting and saying stuff and you couldn't hear
at all. I heard it more when I was pro
than I could that day. But uh no, it was.
It was a treat. But so you're you're saying you
shouldn't sit right behind the bench. Well, okay, so here's
I've told this on the pot a little bit. So

(34:28):
Jerry Green was the organ and uh Turs was on staff,
Mark Urson was on staff, and a guy named Darren
Kaylish is on staff. And so when I transferred from
Notre Dame, I sat out of your junior college. And
I did so for a for really for one reason,
which was when I because you commit early, like I

(34:51):
remember committing in assigning in November, right, And I went
to see Notre Dame play in December and they played
Little of Merriam out and I was like, woof, they're
not great. And they won that game. Then they played
San Diego like two nights later, and they're down thirty
one at the half and I turned to my dad
and I I was like, what did we do? You know,
because the only time we watched Notre Dame play was

(35:12):
they played U c l A. Every year, right that
was I remember them playing U c l A and
maybe playing Indiana. I was like, you know, I went
there and the fight song and the I was gonna
be the starting point guard in the Big East and
all that stuff John McCloud, but I'd never really watched
him play, and I watched the play like, oh shit,
what did I do? So um? So I like bowed

(35:34):
to myself as much as I wanted. There's a couple
of schools. Huggins wanted me to transfer in Cincinnati, and
being a problem child, that seemed, you know, they need
a point guard. But I was like, no, I'm gonna
sit this year. My high school coach my freshman year
was a junior college coach, so I practiced with them,
and then I would help him coach in the games.

(35:56):
Or I'd go and see. I had a girlfriend and
my brother was at how Polly. My girlfriend was at
UC Santa Barbara, So I go up there for a
weekend and watch a couple of watch a couple of games. UM. Anyway,
so I took my visits during the seasons. I want
to see what these teams were like and what it
would feel like. Uh So I actually visited Oklahoma State

(36:17):
the day before I go to Oregon. They're taken on Arizona.
That was the Arizona in the National Championship and they
actually organ actually won the game. But the old MATC court,
they had bleachers that the players sat on. UM. They
did do a renovation before they closed it down where
the players were in chairs, but this is before that,

(36:38):
so this is seven. The players are in on the
end of the bleachers. They had little paddings for them
to sit on and then you could sit basically your
knees backing up to the players. So Jerry Green was
a North Carolina system guy, so they're big sale was, hey,
we have we had a point guard who can take

(37:00):
himself in and out of the game. He calls the offense,
he calls the defense. It was great, Like I'm like,
this is awesome. Come sit watch you'll see how much
the kid's names Kenny Wilkins, who I played against him,
going up really good l a guard UM, and he
they're right, he did. He called the defense. He took
himself in out of the game. You know, the problem

(37:21):
is that when you're sitting and you've been on every
bench ever, is the second that coach comes down and
takes you out and walks away, the chatter starts, right,
the chatter starts and and and Jerry again, Carolina, guy, like,
I hate the way they sub they just I don't.

(37:41):
There's hockey substitutions. Guys are running in and out and
the players were not into the substitution rotational. They won
the game and throughout the game like this month doesn't
know what He's like, It's unbelievable. And I'm just sitting
there and and Oregon was a little weird for me,
you know, I was just mean. I was at Notre Dame,
which is this Christine Catholic school, and I go and

(38:04):
they beat Arizona. And Kyle Milling, who has been on
the pot. He he was my was my AU teammate
and host. We went to a party and it was
like Cheech and Chong's band, and it was it was
a little I was like, man, I don't know, like
this is a little much for me. This is a
little wild, but a good portion. I you want guys
to be kind of embedded in the programs sort of.

(38:25):
But that was a little bit too deep of being
embedded because the bench chatter sometimes you know, if you're
not if you don't know, like hey that it still works.
Like I was just like damn, um, So that was
I think that's a it's a bad idea to sit
behind the bench. You know. Uh, it takes the it

(38:46):
takes the right beer. Okay. But see so you saw
them play and you still turn down Arkansas? Like what
what was I mean? Obviously your brother being at Miszoo helps.
So here, here's here's the whole thing of going to Missouri.
They're recruiting Steve Japanama's right, the big seven footer from
De Smett High School in St. Louis recruited by everybody,

(39:06):
and again he's one of the big three ralph Sampon
samboisive Japanama. Who's gonna get him? Carolina Duke, who's gonna
get him? Steve and I meet uh in a basketball
game Missouri versus Kansas. Uh at the Hern Center, sit
by each other, know each other because of who we are, right,
you know each other hadn't been to camps together. H

(39:28):
visited a little bit. I started thinking about I want
to go where there's a good center and Arkansas Scott
Hastings with a freshman he'd been one year older than me,
and he was gonna be good. Um, Kansas State. I
didn't think first ture what they were doing with their recruiting.
Texas was fine because I thought LASA was gonna go there.

(39:51):
Kansas was recruited me and I always had players. I mean,
Kansas had probaly intimidity intimidated me with Kansas because they
always had these national players and I wasn't sure I
could play. There was Ted Ellen's right, yeah, Ted, But
they had Darnell Valentine, and I mean, you know, just great,
great talent. One night at the final four Bird Magic,
they played on Monday night and my finals are on Saturday.

(40:15):
I get a call Saturday night from Steve span Ridge.
He said, hey, where are you thinking of going? I said,
I don't know. I have I have my official visit
left next week in Arkansas. And I said to him,
are you going to Notre Dame? Because that was he
went to a Catholic high school. Digger had him locked
up and Steve says, and again, these are two seven
teen year od kids. Steve says, you know, I don't

(40:37):
really know about that, and I'm on the phone going,
well what are you thinking? And I'm not sure which
of the other said, well, we could both go to Missouri.
And as we talked for about five more minutes, because
neither one of us said a whole lot, you know,
we're gonna say you go, I'll go. And I told Steve,
I said, okay, but I still haven't a visit to

(40:59):
go to Arkansas, and I still want to go in
the official business. I've been down there a few times.
We had a local alum in my hometown of Blue
Springs would fly me down to go to Barne Hill
and watch, you know, watch the games. So Sunday passes.
I don't even tell my parents about the conversation. I
don't tell him Monday the Bird Magic matchup. I'm in
my gym, shooting around in my high school gym, Gary Garner.

(41:23):
They Missouri had an assistant coming to my high school
every day, and they had an assistant go to Steve's
high school every day every day. And I would you know,
we're about an hour and a half from Columbia. So
is Steve, and I would tell the assistant coach Garner,
you don't have to come see me every day. He saw,
I'm gonna be here every day. He walks in the
gym on that Monday. Remember there's not there's not Twitter,
there's not social media. So he said, did you hear

(41:45):
the news? And that's three o'clock in the afternoon, and
I'm working out with a kid named Steve Harris. Uh.
Steve ended up going to Tulsa, became a pro. Passed
away about ten years ago cancer. But so Steve and
I are working out. He's two years younger than me,
and coach Garner walks in, say, do you hear the news?
I said, what news is that? Now? This is a
day and two days after I talked to Stepani about

(42:05):
being quiet. We'll do this, but be quiet, he said.
Steve announced he's going to MISSOI I said he did.
He goes yeah, and he said he hopes his good
friend John Ensemble's going to So I'm just standing there,
going holy sh it. So I leave the coach out there.
Now he's talking to Steve Harris. I go in there

(42:28):
in the locker room. I called my dad. I called
my mom first, she's at home. My dad owned the
lumber yard. Call my mom, call my dad. I said, hey, Dad,
I'm gonna tell coach Garner I'm going to Missouri. And
my dad said, you are. I said yeah. I said,
Stepanamis and I are going together. And my dad said,
you know good, that's fine. I'm good with that. Make
sure you call the Texas coaches. Make sure you call

(42:49):
the Arkansas coaches, because that's who we're down to, those three.
So I did that, walked out, literally walked out, told
Coach Garner, Hey, coach, I'm going to Missouri. And he
looks and says, you're what I said, I'm going to Missouri.
He said, no, press conference, no. I said no, no,
I'm going to Missouri. That's it. So he runs down

(43:10):
the hall. We go call Norm Stewart out in Salt Lake, and, uh,
it was crazy because I'm at one side of the state.
Japan Vich is on the other side of the sting right.
He was McDonald's American and let's say I was a
top fifty who knows whatever number. Uh, it was crazy
from that time forward. So it was it was fun.

(43:30):
The butterfly effect of that phone call, right, I mean
your your entire life. Yeah, you know, think think about
it because because obviously now with where you live, with
your investment company, with you know, your career, even your
career as a broadcast you like everything. It doesn't mean

(43:53):
that it wouldn't have happened at Texas in Arkansas, but
there's no guarantee. Really is amazing. It's just kind of
one phone call. So and what's interesting my dad. My
dad stayed out of it as much as he could,
but he would always give me advice and say, you know,
the thing you'll have as an athlete is that you
will make contexts and wherever you go play, maybe you
should stay in that area. Like if you want to

(44:15):
live in Texas, go play at the University of Texas.
He was say that, knowing is a seventeen year old,
you have no idea where you want to live, right.
I will say this when I went down and watched
uh TCU play Arkansas on one of those flights with
the with the alum, and I'm standing there outside the
locker room in Sydney Moncrief, I'm gonna talk to him afterwards.

(44:38):
I'm standing with the assistant coach Sydney told someone at
the time, there's nothing like playing for your homestead. Now
I remembered it, right, I'm standing there as a kid
thinking that's interesting what he said, and yeah, I mean
that phone called that Steve Stependtra. He picked up the
phone and said, uh, we could just stay home. Uh yeah, yeah,

(45:00):
changes your whole life. Hey everyone, it's draw most from
life as a gringo podcast. I heart Radio. Sounds of
My Culture is brought to you by State Farm. At
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(45:44):
And of course, man, you know, our culture is is
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So for you, what is one thing that you think
makes our culture so special? When thinking about this question,
the first thing that comes to my mind is the
food aspect of it. I mean, whether that's mennu though
on the weekends, or you know, for for breakfast, Like

(46:07):
I feel like living in Los Angeles, I am blessed
and fortunate to be around so many other Latinos, whether
that's Mexicanos, you know, equat, annuals, guanos, you know at
people from all different types of walks of life. Food
is the one thing that truly ties us all together.

(46:29):
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consider State Farm for surprisingly great rates. Like a good neighbor,
State Farm is there, call or go to state Farm
dot com for a quote today. In high school, I
never really was like dating around or anything like that,
and then I got into a long term relationship and
was dating someone for a few years, and then after
getting out of that relationship, I think these this past

(48:19):
years or whatever whatever it has been like meet like
actually living life as a single person. It's very hard,
and I think it's what do you mean, not like
not hard, I should say, but like it's very different
knowing nothing but long term relationships and then moving into
like the single lifestyle. That's like quote dating around and

(48:41):
like feeling people out. That's kind of been something interesting
to navigate. Listen to the Michael Doua podcast network available
on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever
you listen to podcasts. Did you get there? What was
it like? That was far? Uh? Division watched Art right

(49:01):
and I was I'm not saying a hot shot kid,
but I scored thirty points a game and twelve assists.
And but you get to a program that's Division one,
it's tough, and Norm Stewart was tough, and early on
I was coming off the bench and just doing my
thing right I could. I didn't play because I could
make shots. I played because I could guard guys. I

(49:24):
handled the ball without making mistakes, and I could make
free throws. So I joined a team that we lost.
We lost a guard. It's semester to grades and now
I'm a starting guard next to though Larry Drew, who's
still coaching in the NBA. I think with the Clippers,
Larry Drew was one of the best point guards in
the country and we had an unbelievable team. UM made

(49:48):
it to the Sweet six. Team could have been maybe
the best team I've ever played on, and I was
probably the weakest link as a freshman. UH made big
shots when I had to. If we played Kansas State
and Jack Hartman ran the zone, Larry Drew said, Hey, Sonny,
we're gonna need you tonight. You shoot it, you know,
And I'd make nine bombs against their zone, you know.
But regularly I was just the sidekick to Larry Drew

(50:10):
right just I might guard the best guard on the
other team. It took pressure off Larry again. Handle the basketball,
don't make mistakes, make free throw. So that team was
really good. We we well, we still have the record
fifty seven point three percent field goal percentage UM, unheard of,
and UH team average seventy eight points a game shooting

(50:30):
fifty cent So we were good. We upset Notre Dame,
we won the Big Eight, Missouri hadn't been winning the
Big Eight a whole bunch, so they won in seventy six,
first time forty years. So we won the Big Eight,
advanced to second round of the n C Double A.
We beat a Notre Dame team with Um Trapuca, Tracy Jackson,
Orlando Wooldridge, Rich Branding, John Paxson, and we beat him.

(50:55):
Played up in Lincoln, Nebraska, and you'll appreciate this because
you you've been to Lincoln, Nebraska. Uh, it was a
regional game and n C Double A. Notre Dame was
a heavy favorite, but we had all the court Husker
fans on our side, like they they it was kind
of like they bonded with the Big eight school and
we won in overtime. So they lost in the sweet

(51:15):
sixteen an l s U team that supposedly was going
to run us off the floor but they couldn't and
when they got the league no shot clock stalled, did
some things. But that was a good team. So a
rude awakening, because as you know, it's a hard it's
a hard level. Um, when did you become a start?
When was it wanted to become kind of your team?

(51:37):
So the next year Larry Drew leaves Uh and Steve Japan,
which was great as freshman year. We come back and
we're gonna be nationally ranked, but we don't really have
Larry Drew. And so now it's the balls in my hands.
And I wasn't ready, not that I didn't work at it,
because I worked at it. Uh. We opened up Alaska
Shootout in Arkansas drills is Darryl Walker and U s

(51:58):
Read And you know, I had nightmares about those guys
just ganging up on me. As to the glass, make
him turn their ass to the glass. That was that
was this thing defensively well was in Arkansas, Daryl Walker
and Mont Creep. We had the triplets. We wanted you
to turn your ass to the glass, brother, and they
could do it. And they could do it. So that

(52:19):
season went on, stepanovic Um got hurt, didn't play as well, struggled,
another guy get hurt. We didn't have a great senior leadership.
It was probably midway through the Big Eight season when
we were struggling that I don't know if I figured
it out that I had to emerge as more of
a player than then I was doing. So I led

(52:42):
our team in scoring in the conference, probably the greatest
thing that changed me because we're down at Oaklhoma State
practicing and Mr IBA's watching, and an assistant coach came
up after practice, one of our assistants and said, Mr
Iba thinks you're pretty damn special. And I looked at

(53:03):
the coach and I thought he said that about me
or our team said no, no, you, And honestly, I
think the next night, next day, I think I had
twenty six. And so down the stretch of my sophomore year,
we somehow win seven. Right now we're in the league again.
We were very good, but we win the league again
and then and then you just you know what. My
My game was just growth every year, just just keep growing.

(53:25):
The next year we were on a team that went
nineteen and O was undefeated, number one in the country
for a while, and that was a good team. The
great thing about Norm was that we he we would
play anybody. He wanted to play anybody, and that was
where he promised a Panovitch and myself, we'll see how
good we are. So that junior, no one really wanted
to play us in the hern Center, a lot of it.

(53:46):
Like I opened my senior year, we played North Carolina
and Michael Jordan's in the Checker Dome and in St.
Louis right neutral site, and we beat him. And then
the next year after I graduated, Missouri went to North Carolina.
We played neutral site for CBS. We played Virginia my
senior Ralph Sampson, we went to Georgetown. The two teams

(54:07):
that came to the Hern Center my senior year, Oregon
States had won the Pack ten Pack whatever it was
back then. They had won the Organ State had won
the Pack Charlie Sitting Charlie team, So they'd won three
years in a row. We'd won the Big Eight three year.
They came to the Hern Center. We drilled them, absolutely
drilled them. Okay, so let's let's let's talk her and

(54:28):
Center because it was it was a very cool place
to play. And I like the antlers. They were they
were tamed by antlers standards by the time I was there, right,
but they were still there was still some chance before
the game that were pretty funny, pretty lightning, right if
you take it that way. So I remember that, I
remember the antlers, but I also remember like it's kind

(54:49):
of a weird building where it was. It was big
and on top of you but up top it kind
of felt like a hodgepodge, Like, yeah, I always feel
like people know, like guys, I guess we know our
home arena, every nook and cranny to it. Um, what's
when when your thoughts of the hern center or what

(55:10):
in terms of um, what it was? What it was?
Actually really liked playing and that kind of weird sort
of our architectural set up. So in the four corners
way up pie were classrooms. They were they were class
built for classrooms, so they could close them off for classes.
That's why it was so weird up top. Most places

(55:31):
aren't like that. You know, when I remember again, I
played there forever and I've been there for a volleyball
and it was still so steep, right. Yeah. The other
part I remember why was steep is Section D S
at the very top our norm Stewart. If basically you
shot at one and one each guy got on a bucket,
you miss one of them, you find an avenue with
lane and you're going to Section D and back in

(55:53):
thirty seconds, which is not very healthy, which is a
little bit screwy to think it, but it made some
of us really good free throw I hated running the
section d but it was it was a sprint up
and it's very high and then a sprint down, so
you're jumping every three or four steps. It was kind
of an ugly building, you know, it was gray and
and off green seats, so like when there's no fans

(56:16):
in their shooting. Wise, it wasn't a great place, but
it was our place. So and when we got it going,
you know, I didn't see the ugly green of the gray.
I mean, you know, it was loud. It was our guys,
uh not many one again. Oregon State came in. Jim Valvano,
North Carolina State came in my senior year and played it.

(56:36):
That was a year they want it and we beat
him in our place. And that was Thorow Bailey and
those guys. And you know, even in Valvano said this
place is nuts and it wasn't a but when you're good,
any place is good. I'll tell you my favorite place
was your place, still water best. I played best in
the smallest of arenas. Maybe I felt bigger. I don't

(56:59):
know what's psychologically a hearn Field House was it more?
I played great at Case State, played great at Oklahoma State.
Every year when I got in the pros. I played
great when Chicago Bulls were in their old building. Uh,
San Antonio Spurs, I was traded there, I played always
played great there. The hemisphere felt smaller than these big
domes in big places. So, you know, the Herns was

(57:21):
just a place where because we were winning, and we
had the antlers who got to survive being close to
the floor until they weren't. Um you know, it was
a part of you know, you experienced. You wondered what
they were gonna do, right, and it was always even up.
So the first our first trip up there, dude, this
is my two Missouri stories, my first show their norms there.

(57:43):
So what what's interesting about coach Stewart is um, I
had heard him speak my Daddy's take me the All
Final Force. I had heard him speak and he was hysterical.
But what's funny was huh unless you played for him,
he was really funny. Correct, No, I mean they're all

(58:04):
like that, right, and then you graduate and all of
a sudden you become normal, normally human beings again, you know. Um.
So I had heard him speak and it was him
and Roy Williams and then they had Johnny or afterwards,
and I'll never forget that. I never forget this line.
Like Johnny or Is, like they called the big dwell
now all to call dirty dozen. Every one of them

(58:25):
sons of bitches were cheating. Everyone's sons of bitches got
called cheating. Hell, we were cheating worse and worse than
all of them. You know. It was one of those deals.
It was very funny. So I knew very I had
seen Missoo play. Um. The Melvin Booker team played Louisville
in the n c A tournament at the Sports Marine

(58:45):
in l A. Yeah, I was doing the radio for
and I was so I went. I went to and
I was like, I loved how hit at least that
version of coach Stewart. He kind of had three sort
of positionless guards like Anthony Peeler, right, wasn't you know?
And they just it was kind of take them ball, right,
It was just like whoever got it, let's go, and

(59:06):
they played. I thought they played together really well. So
I liked him. And again this year I'm sitting out. Um.
There was like the first wave of schools recruiting me,
and then I took my visits and then very late
in the process, Kelvin called and Norm Stewart called I'm
never getting like. Norman Stewart was just like, uh, you're
about six too, aren't you. Oh, No, coach, like not close?

(59:32):
You know, well I know you shoot the hell out
of it. And I was just like, no, coach, not close. Yeah,
And it was like he offered me kind of sight unseeing.
I don't know if my dad had sent him a
tape or something like that. Um so, but my my
two uh Hern's stories are like this. So the first
time we go up there, we weren't supposed to be

(59:54):
very good. We were picked last in the South, and
we were pretty good, and we hadn't played anybody in
the nonconference from a part and uh we lost like
Nebraska at home, which anybody remembers the Big twelve. Nebraska
was the worst road team ever and they had Cookie
Belcher and they had Tyler and they were very talented.
But we're up like thirteen nothing start the game and

(01:00:15):
we start subbing and we end up losing the game.
So we go to Missoo and coached in a bad
mood and there's like an ice storm coming. So we
land late and we go to have practice late and
we get done and we go to the Olive Garden
for dinner night before game, and the manager of the
Allive Garden could not have been any nicer. And it

(01:00:36):
was like, um, Coach Sutton, sir, I don't know how
to tell you this, Like our kitchens closed, and like
Coach Sutton was like, will you tell you go back there?
You tell Mandy Shutton's boys were hungry, and I kid
you not, Like guys were checking out there, taking off
their aprons and next thing you know, we got pasta
and salad and breadsticks and we eat. So we go

(01:00:59):
in there and so I used to them, so it's
like half full, and it was and and again those
ugly seats and I'm like, is this place? This place sucks,
you know, And I was like, there's a lot of seats,
it's empty. We end up losing. We had we got
I thought we got screwed the refs. We messed around,
and we end up losing the game. But I was
utterly and completely unimpressed because, like you said, it's not

(01:01:20):
a particularly nice, aesthetically pleasing nice building. We come back
two years later because you know, he played every other year,
and Quinn's there and their talented key on duelings. They're
they're pretty talented, and um uh, it's a zoo and
the antlers are chanting all kinds of stuff and the
places packed and we beat them, and I think they

(01:01:43):
made a run the termament that year. The next year
they met at Lead eight or something. We we beat them,
but they were really and we actually played really, really well.
We end up beat them by like eight or twelve,
and that was probably one of the best basketball games
we played. We had to raise our level and it
was an absolute zoo. And I remember walking out going,
I can't believe that's the same place, right, Like, that

(01:02:04):
place was awesome. That was one of the five best
places I've ever played. But I played in the same
building two years before. It was half full and I
was walking out like, this place sucks that. Those are
my two hern Center Hern Center memories. And it was advantage.
I mean, it was a great When the teams were
good at Missouri, it was hard to beat him there,
to be honest. Um, Okay, so you get down playing now,

(01:02:29):
why why do you think he could never get to
a final four? What? What? What was it that you know?
I don't know, I don't know, you know, it's A.
It's a it's a bounce of a ball. Here, you know,
my my junior year, we were again number one for
a while. You get in the n C Double A.
I don't know who. I think we beat Tulsa. We

(01:02:51):
meet Houston in the sweet six team. So I'm a
junior Clyde Drexlers, a junior Rob Williams. It's funny, could
you go a live Joan Drexler, Mishaw, Michael Young. But
their best player was Rob Williams was who was a
guard nobody remembers and he went pro after that year.
He was a juniors my age. So they beat us

(01:03:12):
in the Checker Dome by a point, right, a point,
And that's the Houston I mean you have like I
go back to my team's I go back to other
teams that they've had chances. It's a bounce of a ball.
It's a misfree throw. Yeah, I mean, it's a It's
kind of a hard one to figure out because you
always think at some point someone would get there, even

(01:03:33):
even Booker's team, which wasn't good early and they added
a kid named paul O Lennit semester and they go
through the Big Eight undefeated, and they get out there
in l A and they get beat by Arizona. Now
Arizona was terrific, and that was to go to the
final four. So you know what, whether whether the teams
weren't talent enough, I don't know about that, because some
were pretty good. Or again a bounce a ball here,

(01:03:56):
or a miss shot or a screw up. You know what?
What he made him specialist coach? Uh, I would say,
I would say his discipline to detail, uh, detailed discipline.
I should say, hey, everything was highly calculated. We we
everything was practiced right every situation. Now, not every player

(01:04:20):
could play for him. A lot of guys transferred in
today's world. I think you have about ten ship out
ten come in question. I loved it because I was
I'm a disciplined guy. I didn't like I didn't like
going to practice in jacking around. It wasn't It's not
my personality. So going to work, going to practice was
good for me. Um if if it had to if

(01:04:46):
it had to be a detailed situation, then I loved it.
And then I'll be honest. I have them. I played
the most minutes of anybody in the history of Missouri.
I mean that's that's that's that's on the board, and
the most minutes ever in one season average thirty eight minutes. Again,
that's what amazing. Well it is because of how Norman's right,
because he didn't like, guy, if you made a mistake,

(01:05:08):
and I got that my freshman year. But after that,
the only time I came out with my senior year
at Kansas, I think I was trying too hard. Right,
It's Kansas, and all of a sudden the buzzer goes
off in a free throwing out and not paying attention,
and a guy tapped me on the shoulder and I
gotta go out, and I'm looking over like, what the
hell is going on here? He sits me down and
choose me out pretty good for about I don't know,

(01:05:31):
five or six seven minutes, which to me was an eternity.
And then I go back in and hit a shot
at the buzzer and makes Steve something that half time.
He slapped me upside the head and said, you know
that's better. But I understood it, and you what you
try to explain to other guys when I came back
to do I came back, I wasn't getting into broadcasting.

(01:05:51):
I wanted to build a financial business. The university called
and said, hey, will you do the radio? And I
said no, no, and then Norm called the next day
we need you to do the radio. Okay, so I'll
do the radio. But I remember having remember being on
those plane rides. I remember we go up to Nebraska.
There are two guys. Uh, we get they get hammered,

(01:06:14):
they get beat by the cornhus was we get on
the bus and a guy says to me. He says, hey,
how do you play for him? And I said, uh,
what do you mean. He goes, well, he's so hard
he can't you know, he's on us. He's just said,
let me ask you two things. I said, practice gonna
be hard tomorrow, and the kids said, yeah, it's gonna
be really hard. I said, all right, you got that

(01:06:36):
figured out. I said, is he gonna call you a
m effort tomorrow? A few times? Yeah? I go, So
there you go. You got it. It's it. I said,
in between all that, he's trying to win. He's not
trying to beat you down. So I love the challenge
that he was putting on me. And the challenge on
me was from that freshman year on whether he thought

(01:06:58):
I was gonna be really good. I look back, and
he must have thought I was gonna be really good.
He put it on me every day, like every day.
Why I didn't know everybody's strength and weakness, every player,
every you know, scouting report, every it never ended, which
was good for me. I could run down my twelve
guys on a team and tell you exactly why I

(01:07:20):
wasn't throwing in the ball seven ft from the bucket
but three ft from the bucket, right. Every but I
got I love that. I love you know, playing chess
or whatever. That was. That was my world. So you know,
that's what I liked about him. He now, he was
a big dude, held his chest out. So one of
his pet peeves was when we went on the road.
If we're let's pick Lincoln, Nebraska, we're gonna have let's

(01:07:43):
say the games at one, we're gonna have early breakfast,
and we're going for a walk, and it's still like
ten degrees outside, right, yeah, every place. I don't care
ten degrees outward. You know you can see us as
college players, not really happy. He led the way though,
and her would go by and hunk, and uh, you know,

(01:08:04):
Norm might say, hey, kiss my ass, go get on
your tractor, you corn husker. Now all right, here we go,
game on. So yeah, I appreciate it those kind of things.
There are a lot of players that fought him. I
didn't fight him. I I thought I thought he and
I were on the same page. I'm pretty hard headed,
So there were some games we probably butted heads on
the floor, right. Um. I always thought you could see

(01:08:28):
something different on the floor than what they saw on
the sideline. I wasn't convinced to that, and he wasn't
convince to that. But I would try to argue that
what you're seeing isn't what's happened. I totally agree with.
Like I, I look back, and it's interesting people at
the all the time, Like I let the country and assist.
I let the country assist with the fewest minutes anyone's

(01:08:48):
ever let the country and assist. That year, I average
like twenty six minutes a game. You know, I average
twenty eight minutes game at at at Notre Dame as
a freshman. You know, even though the first four games
I came off the inch, that's because you drove Eddie crazy.
I drove him crazy. But also you know, like he
I was this whipping boy, I was the guy he

(01:09:10):
could he couldn't yell at Desn't Mason doesn't. Mason a
great player and a great competitor. But if you yelled
at him, you got on him. He took it personally
and it wasn't wasn't great. So if you got on
to me, Desmond was kind of a protector and he
would it would he like take up for his teammates.
Was a really interesting dynamic. Um, but I got thrown

(01:09:32):
out of the game of the u c L A
my u c L A game only game. I came
back home to play at halftime, like right before halftime,
I got a second taxico fouls. Weird deal anyway, So
I was in the doghouse for eight games, and like
I went from averaging fourteen and eleven to just like
seven and nine assists or something. And but but uh,

(01:09:54):
I was always jealous of guys that didn't come out
of the game because they didn't so I had I
did have one game. Um, we lost to Kansas the
one time we played up in Lawrence and Joe Atkins
by two guards got hurt. He was the backup point.
So the funniest thing happened senior day we played Texas
Tech and that's uh Rayer Young was their star with

(01:10:15):
Stan Bonowititz. It was a good team and we never
lost to them. Um, but they're coming to town and
we don't have a backup point, like literally no one
who's brought, no one. Those guys would never touch the ball,
bringing the ball up the court. They knew that was
not their domain and that was not what they did,
and so he just I think, just kind of knee

(01:10:36):
jerk reaction. I would take a shot, and by by
that time my career, my junior year, like literally if
I missed a shot, I knew I'm coming out regardless
it was a good shot of bad shot, because every
shot became a bad shot. I was such a bad
shooter at some point in time that game, I played
thirty eight and a half minutes, but I was taken
out of the game five times, and he would he

(01:10:56):
would take me out, and then the guys would literally
argue like who would have to bring the ball up
to court? And Tech finally check out Smart and every
time I was out, they pressed and it was and
you go back in there and do better. So so
you're basically my idol playing thirty eight minutes a game.
I never now okay again. And you would know this

(01:11:18):
from from playing Norms. I mean, the two guys that
worked the hardest in my four year we're Sapanovich and myself.
Like Steve, Steve was just a workhorse, wanted to be good,
just kind of stay out of his way, right, he
didn't have time for the lollygag. And I never after
the one guy flunked out a semester my freshman year.

(01:11:39):
I never lost a sprint ever. Yeah, it's it's a
weird it's it is. It's an interesting thing. Like, so
I coached my son now, right, he's twelve, and he's
a little he's like me. He's a late luomur um
and a little bit late to the au scene, right,
like a lot of these kids they started like third
fourth grade. And it's he's a little brother. But he

(01:12:01):
has two older sisters, so he's not as kind of
tough and scrappy as as I was when I was
a little brother. But you know, one of the things
I have always told him, it is like, look, I
cannot make you tallerant Hey, I cannot. You're a better
looking than I am, but I can't make you better looking.
There's certain things you're not gonna be able to do.
But you know what you can do is you can
win every sprint. Okay, because because it's not really about

(01:12:24):
how fast you are. I make one. He's pretty fast.
You know both of us were fast, you, you and
me um. But it's just about like, hey, you you
want to show people that you want to lead, you
want to be point guard, you want to be your team.
Those are things you have to do. You gotta be
early and on time and ready to go. You gotta
not just tell people what you need to know everywhere.

(01:12:46):
Everybody's supposed to be at every play, and then you
can win every sprint. Those are things that you can control.
The other thing ball goes in, doesn't go in, doesn't
doesn't matter. And I think it's an interesting thing that
I don't know. I remember, here's it. Here's one that
he's setting. The people don't know. I've never been told before.
We were we very very seldom did we run lines.
It was punishment or you read the steps we had.

(01:13:09):
You had you go count those steps. I know how
many there are going back and Joel right, and but
when we did run, he wasn't a stickler for guys
touching the line. And I was like it took me,
Like it took me a couple of weeks, and like
this is some bullshit here, right, because I'm gonna touch

(01:13:30):
the touch the line guy, right, Like if you're gonna
do it, touch the line. And I remember these guys
like beating me at sprints, like yo, they're missing the
line by a yard. So he calls me in one
day and he goes, hey, I noticed you haven't been
winning the sprints as much once we started like practicing.

(01:13:50):
And I said, um, the coach, you know, listen, I
won't happen again. I didn't say anything about the lines,
and he goes, I know they're missing in the lines.
You know, I see it, right. I was like, no, coach,
I thought. She's like like this is He goes, you know,
and god, he went into some story about golf. He's like,

(01:14:10):
knowing golf, you call fouls on yourself, right, it's about
your honor. And he goes, you think I don't see it.
He's like, you don't think I know who's getting shots?
You don't think I know who's touching the line. And
I go, now, it's your job if you want to
run my team to get them to touch the line.
Not my job. You get them to touch the line.

(01:14:31):
That's pretty good. And so I said, okay, coach, And
after that I started calling dudes out, Hey, motherfucker, touched
the fucking line. We touched lines here and and it clipped.
And I had no idea, Like I was, this is
like a couple of months into the season, because we started.
He only ran really like Christmas time. When we come
back from break, we'd have he'd run, we'd build up

(01:14:54):
runs or whatever. And I never I never forgot that,
and I haven't told that story that he was a
weird It was a weird deal because that medicine lines.
And I was like, I thought this was a discipline program.
We got discipline on her ass were practicing here. We're not.
We're not disciplined. And He's like, I see it. It's
your job to make sure they touched the one. I'm
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Let's Ride. From the Fox News Podcasts Network, The Fox
News Rundown the contrast of perspectives you won't hear anywhere else,
your daily dose of news twice a day, going far
beyond the headlines, tamping into the massive reporting resources of
Fox News to provide a full picture of the news

(01:16:23):
of the day. I'm there, I'm Maria Bartramo, I'm Brian Kilmeade,
and this is the Fox News Rundown. Follow the Fox
News Rundown on Spotify today. But you know those guys
like Norm or they didn't miss anything, right, they're not,
They're not missing anything. No, we were a little opposite.

(01:16:43):
We ran a lot, We ran a lot of lines
like we were. The worst in our situation wasn't if
if Norm came down in the hern Center on floor
number three, the third level, that's where his office was,
and for some odd reason you could tell if you
weren't in a good mow. Every reason, and the worst,
the worst always is if he told the managers to

(01:17:04):
put the balls up like away, and you thought, holy shi,
two hours of defense and running like and you know,
in my mind, I'm like, you can't play the game
without a ball. But there they go, like there there
go the balls. Look at him rocking down here, and
then you don't look at each other like all right.
Nobody talked back, nobody, you know, everybody you dive on.

(01:17:27):
I mean, you didn't want this to be a And
there were no rules about time, right, there were no
limits on how long you could be there. We had rules,
but we had a clock. Remember, old Gallagher, there's a
clock behind you looked up right behind one of the baskets.
You looked up to the right before that there's a
clock and guys would be sitting there. We'd be at
practice and practically going like two and a half three
hours and dudes looking at the clock. And he go

(01:17:49):
at Pat Nooy is one of the guys died in
the crash, Pat Snake. You go up there and cover
up that clock. All these guys clock watching like a
couple of bird dogs block watching. We'll be so so
you could go in and on the day of the game,
they would have a sheet over the clock and they'd
removed the sheet from the clock, like like, hey, that's

(01:18:09):
that's so. We did we when I played, we did
have the twenty hour rule. It just was a very
great We had no rules and the only thing you
concerned about when the balls went in was when he
would tell the managers to call Charlie. Charlie Rand the
food place where we ate, right, tell Charlie to keep
it open longer. And you thought Coach Suttons was he

(01:18:32):
did he would do when he would be mad. Uh,
there was. There was a bunch of different things, but
one was he would walk. He would he would say
turn to the assistant, say run them to their ankles,
smoke and he would walk out of the gym and
coach had a heart. He had a heart. Guys like coach,
I'm I'm dying, I've been sick, I'm tired. The assistant
coaches no heart, soulless human beings and they would like

(01:18:56):
take turns on you. Um, this is my is my
favorite one. With the academic strategy was basically this miss class,
you will pay for it. You do not miss a class,
not one class. So UM. My senior year, we had
a group of because we had a big we had

(01:19:16):
like six scholarship seniors graduated. We had a bunch of
dudes sitting out as transfers. Victor Williams, Kansas City kid
from transferred Illinois State, Antoine Broxi's transfer from Minnesota. He's
coaching now in the in the NBA. UM. We had
Jason Keith who wasn't sitting out right but should have
used a junior college transfer from Idaho. UM. We had

(01:19:40):
Dan Lawston who passed away in the crash. I'm trying
to think we have one more that was to sit out.
And then Nate Fleming, who was a walk on freshman.
He died in the crash. UM. Nate was kind of
with that group because he was the smart kid, and
here we weren't cheat, but he was supposed to like
make sure if we had a study session, he was

(01:20:01):
supposed to be there and help lead him. Right, So
they all had a class Saturday morning, four hour class
like history, like intro to history, okay, And basically it
was like, look, it's a Saturday class. The worst you
can do if you do your work is a beat.

(01:20:21):
And if you know anything about how it works, you're
trying to get a two point oh four hours of
a B four hours of an eight. Like, you're set
right four hours of me. You're pretty pretty good shape, coach,
And it's not there's again, not no funny business, like, look,
this is the class everybody goes. So probably fourth, probably

(01:20:45):
fifth or sixth weekend we've been there. The football team
placed Tulsa at eleven am start and their classes eight
until noon. Right, so the rest of us we go,
we gotta work out in the morning, we take a shower,
we all have we get something to eat. Walk over.
We're in the like section where all the basketball players
sit for the football games, and here the dummies, right,

(01:21:08):
and they're already there. We're like, yo, what are you guys?
Doing where's your class? You hear your class? Like, ah,
that's like that ship just it's one class. We're like okay, sure,
I was like our expression was you fared on campus?
He smells it in the office, right, he knows everything,

(01:21:29):
every everything, Like you really think you're getting away with this,
Like there's one classes on a Saturday. Who's going on?
So here comes Nate Fleming, like right before the game,
He's like, hey, where are you guys? You guys, we're
a class today? Like what happened? Like they let us
out early anyway, Like, man, you guys should have been there,
so they thought they got away with it. Not Sunday
we're off, like we played pick up all in the gym,

(01:21:51):
guys work out whatever. Great day. Monday I had a
test and so my test was like I don't know
if four to six or something like that, and practice
was at six, so I couldn't be there at the
start of practice. I made sure coach is aware. They
all knew it was good. I come walking to the

(01:22:12):
gym like six oh five and all everyone outside of
those guys are walking out fully dressed, and I'm like, yeah,
what happened? Like oh, they canceled practice, but you gotta
go in there and see this ship. I was like,
what I gotta see is like, just go see it.
So I walk in and here's all these dudes on

(01:22:32):
their shorts, puffing and puffing. Victor Williams is crying, literally crying, mccoma,
moll coach, like you go or you tell you just
give it a class. They had to do five sweet
at five seventeens consecutively under a minute and if they

(01:22:52):
anybody missed the time, they start over. And those poor
dudes were there for an hour and fifteen or whatever.
But you know what, they didn't do anymore. They didn't
skip a class. No one skipped a class anymore. So
it was weird. It was like this. There were parts
of it which it wasn't that they weren't disciplined. He
would just kind of let it go just to kind
of see. And there were parts of it which there

(01:23:13):
was intense discipline and that kind of late. It was
an interesting way of doing it right because some places
are just everything is disciplined. Some places it feels like
it's a frief for all. It seemed like there was
a little bit of a methodology to it, and every
once in a while, he would let you know like
who was boss and how he did things, and then
it just organically took care of himself. How was he

(01:23:35):
on the road, like when you guys did a road trip.
Was he like with food and stuff like that? Because
today's world is different, But I was a very very
like coach. Setting was again, these are the things I
didn't care what. We don't all have to wear the
same sneakers. There'd be nikes. Everybody got the team shoot
at the start of the year. And then the star
player like Desmond or Pete, they like got to tell him, Hey,

(01:23:57):
I want some Jordan's and suddenly they had air Jordan's
like and then I never I had a thing if
I lost the game, I'd never wore that sneaker in
a game ever again. And so that was that. There
was a bit of a juggling there and negotiating with
so the walk Ons they had like one pair of shutes,
like we had a bunch of you're part of the
modern era, so we weren't. We didn't get all that stuff.

(01:24:17):
So but again, but this was kind of the the
interesting part. You know, when he would do a deal
when we play, like I remember we played you teach
san Antonio my senior year and we're up like thirty
five and we're running plays for Desmond. I'm like, coach,
how about we run a couple of plays for for
your boy here? Like yeah, let me give me some confidence,
going like, we play Oklahoma, who do we want shooting

(01:24:37):
the basketball? I was like, well that's amasis like, well
that's who's gonna shoot the ball against Texas San Antonio.
You know. So that was the deal. So he was
very Um, we didn't do the suit and tie thing.
We did sweats right now. I mean you had to.
But like John McLeod was like, you would not play,
you would not start if you didn't tuck in your

(01:24:58):
chair like his things crazy, but he was coaches pre
relaxed about stuff, you know, wasn't I'll tell you a
good one and this and and and oh some have
heard to some Evan in the Missouri world. So I'm
a junior. We've got a great team. But norm thing
when we went out on the road the night before game,

(01:25:18):
we had we always had a chicken dinner somewhere right,
and he thought hungry dogs run faster, Okay, to eat
after like seven o'clock and then you're done. Well, obviously
he knows and we know that you can't just eat
at seven o'clock until the next morning at eight am, right,
but in his world, you're not eating. So if you

(01:25:42):
were at Iowa State, a few of a sneak out
and it's you know, it's twenty freaking below. But we're
gonna walk quite a long way to go find a cheeseman, right,
We're just gonna find a cheeseman. So we do. Some
of the guys decided they'll just go right across the street.
I was rooming with Prince Bridges and Prince was terrific backcourt,

(01:26:04):
made of mind. Prince is now teaching basketball stuff in
Oklahoma City. So Prince was one of the guys that
just went across the street. Unbeknownst to him that coaches
are sitting in whatever hotel floor looking out the window
playing cards, and Prince comes back, gets in the room.
All of a sudden, about five minutes later, there is

(01:26:26):
a knock on our door. Yeah, I get you know,
Prince is throwing his French fries and stuff under the bed.
He'd be caught with any of this stuff. And it
was Norm. And Norm walks in and you know our
room smells like French fries, right, I mean it's the
Norm says, yeah, Lee, I'm hungry, Prince, you get any
fries you can share with me? And I'm sitting there thinking,

(01:26:47):
oh boy, so get this the next day where and
I was staying, and I was stay. It's always good.
It's hard to win there, but we're the big boys
coming in. I always tell people we we were kind
of like Kansas is now, right, when we were in
four championships in a row. Here we come, a couple
of Americans, here we come. Norm didn't coach us. He

(01:27:08):
walked in before the game, kind of told us to
kiss his rare end f you guys, and he walked out.
He said, you can't you guys can't stand it. You
can't stand just doing what you're supposed to do and left.
So now we're all huddle up, we go out and play.
Every time out we'd get in the time out, he'd
look in the huddle, fu fu fu fu f you

(01:27:28):
and then walk out. So now the assistance are nervous, right,
So he got the second half. It was a pretty
good game. He pulls us in, still f us as
we we walk out he's f you, and but we
had a good team. So we huddle up out there
and I don't know if it was my idea or
we had a senior Ricky Frasier that was off the
chart good. We're not gonna run. We ran a triangle offense,

(01:27:53):
the triple post, which is what text winner ran a
case state, then the bulls, Well that's what we ran.
That's all we ran. It's all just a passing cut movement.
And we said, we're not running. We're not running the
office is what we called it. We're gonna just run
a passing game. Now, Norm Jolness from the sideline. Now
we're probably number three in the freaking country. Our guys

(01:28:13):
join us on the sideline. We got hard headed dudes
out on the court, and we we go about ten
straight buckets and we win. But I mean, he he
had this thing that he would just say, you can't
stand not being able to follow orders, right, knowing that
he probably knew half of us walked across six blocks
in the coal to get a cheeseburgon at nine o'clock,

(01:28:34):
but the other guys did it right in front of him.
So yeah, that was one of the game he didn't
coach like I'll always tell him, I said, you know,
you got one win short of what he's telling your record. Yeah,
well that that was. There was some amazing stuff in
talking about his journey through Missouri UM. In the next pot,
we'll get to John's NBA career and some of the

(01:28:57):
ups and downs and trials and tribulations, and what it's
like to be a first round draft pick, what it's
like to be a rookie with a group full of veterans,
what the expression is that he was taught in the
NBA When he got a D n p C D
did not play coach's decision. In the meantime, thanks to
John for all his time, and thanks to you for downlay.
Reminder that Doug Gotli shows daily three to six Eastern,

(01:29:20):
twelve to three Pacific on your I Heart radio app
on Fox Sports Trader dot Com on Serious x M
two seventeen or two oh three Series to seventeen x
M two oh three. In the meantime, tell a friend,
write a review, Share this on Twitter, shared on Facebook.
It's pretty good stuff. I'm Doug Gotlick. This is all
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All Ball - Pt. 1 Big 12 /SEC Challenge Reaction with SEC Network Analyst Jon Sundvold + SEC Hoops Rise, Norm Stewart Stories

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}All Ball - Pt. 1 Big 12 /SEC Challenge Reaction with SEC Network Analyst Jon Sundvold + SEC Hoops Rise, Norm Stewart Stories