3 & Out - Lions center RETIRES, CJ Stroud CAN'T throw, Knicks FIRE Thibs

John reacts to the Lions Pro Bowl center Frank Ragnow retiring from the NFL and how much of an impact this will have on the Lions offense this season. Next, John talks about CJ Stroud having a sore shoulder and discusses why at this point in the off-season it's very concerning. Later, John dives into the firing of Tom Thibodeau and why this move isn't as surprising as it looks.

Lastly, John answers your questions in this episode's mailbag segment.

4:47 - Lions center retires

13:26 - CJ Stroud has a sore shoulder

14:19 - Josh McDaniels speaks

26:32 - Tyler Guyton admits awful season

36:59 - Mailbag

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume. What is going on everybody, John Middlecoff Three
and Out Podcast. Hopefully everyone is doing well and we're

(00:23):
here to talk a little football because that's what we do.
And we had some breaking news starting center Pro Bowl
for the Lions. The number one seed retired somewhat out
of the blue. CJ. Stroud has not been able to
practice big year for Josh McDaniels. The offensive coordinator Tom
Thibodeaux was fired. You gotta be careful when you're a

(00:43):
you know, the head coach, the GM in the front
office can backstab you when you're out grinding, when you're
on the court or on the field. That guy's talking
to the owner, texting people, and all of a sudden
you're looking for a job and they're right in the
statement saying suy you. So we'll talk some sports. We'll
also do a big mail bag at John Middlecoff as
the Instagram fire in those dms. Get your questions answered

(01:06):
here on the show. But before we talk any football,
you know, I need you to subscribe to the podcast.
If you listen on Collins feed, you got to subscribe
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We had a football podcast the day before, So we've
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sure you subscribe to those two things for me. Really

(01:28):
appreciate everyone that has. But before we dive into some football,
you know, I gotta tell you about my friends, my
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(01:48):
invite someone else because I really do want to go.
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That's an incredible event. Obviously, football season this fall. You
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(02:11):
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ever used. So take the guests we're got of buying
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dollars off down in the game Time aut today, last
minute tickets, lowest prices guaranteed. I always think when a
player retires quote unquote randomly, especially when there is you know,

(02:54):
the car situation had gotten let's say, toxic between the
new coaching staff, mainly the new head coach him. They
weren't on the same page. It clearly got weird, and
I do think that I would imagine we'll see when
quotes come out when Dan Campbell finally gets in front
of a mic or Brad Holmes, the GM that they

(03:16):
would have been in communication over the offseason. With Frank
ragnow their starting center and let's face it, one of
the better interior offensive linemen in the NFL, it's always
a little jarring when you see a guy just choosing
to quit at twenty nine years old. Now, I think
what makes pro sports in twenty twenty five so much

(03:39):
different than I would say the previous We could even
go the last ten years, but anything before that is
the money is so outrageous. It really is. Frank Ragno's
twenty nine years old and he's already made fifty seven
million dollars. You know, so even if you factor in
after taxes, he's taken in net probably I don't know,

(03:59):
well over thirty million dollars. And he lives in a
place that, you know, no shade to Detroit, and obviously
they have some high end places, but is it Manhattan
or Newport Beach? So his money's going a little bit farther.
And I do think that makes or gives guys the
opportunity when they're in a lot of pain, because the
one thing with football is we've all been critical, and

(04:23):
I'm guilty as anybody is being like, this is not
the NFL. I know, this is not the sport that
I grew up loving. This was not the sport when
I was in high school. It was suspicious. You could
take out anybody. The Ronnie Lotts the John Lynches, the
Troy Paulamalus, the Ray Lewis's. That's that's my NFL. It

(04:45):
was a much more violent game in the open field.
That is true. Can't touch the quarterback anymore. That's a
fact which I do understand from a business perspective. But
when you're watching a game, when it's your team, when
you're betting on a game, and they throw a roughing
the passer penalty on a quarterback hit that is like

(05:05):
hitting him with a pillow. It makes you want to puke.
I mean, it really does. But the one area where
you can still be really violent and an area in
which more and more elite players have come into the
league over the past decade at defensive tackle, let alone,
defensive end is the line of scrimmage and the speed,

(05:28):
the power, the size of these humans is it's crazy
whenever the combine comes around and you see the measurables
on the defensive lineman in the league. And Frank rag
Now said, like, I've tried to talk myself that I'm
not into a lot of pain, and at the end
of the day, I just do not feel right. And
if you look at his injury history, he's had a
bunch of injuries over the course of his career, and

(05:50):
you do not become a Pro Bowl level player, a
high end player, a first round pick, a guy that
is just you know, one of the better players at
your position offensive line if you are not a tough
son of a bitch, Like no one can question your
toughness when you play center or guard and you are
a high end player at that position. So I'm gonna

(06:11):
take him at his word that the pain and the
worry about like this might not work moving forward. Right.
Jason Kelsey talked about this when he retired, like could
I keep playing? Of course now he was he was
much older than rag now. But I'm in so much
pain when I get out of bed every morning, not
even counting the season. I'm talking about the off season.

(06:32):
And I do think it makes it easier to make
life decisions when you have a lot of money in
the bank and your family is secured and you're not
gonna have to worry about anything. Is it unlimited money?
Is it enough where you couldn't blow it if you
did some stupid things? Of course not so. But is
it more money? Are you immediately in the top one

(06:53):
percent of the one percent with having millions upon millions
upon millions of dollars in the bank, you can look
at things a little bit differently, and it has to
be difficult to make this decision. I think if you're
the Lions. I've said this before and I still believe
this today. Now it is more difficult in this spread
offense version of college football, this transfer portal world we

(07:15):
live in. I always thought the guards and centers are
the most replaceable. Now when you get Pro Bowl guys,
it is hard to find another Pro Bowl guy. But
the drop off of just finding another center who can
function is much smaller than if Pina Sewel retired. It's like,

(07:36):
what do I do at tackle? It's like, yeah, you
can be screwed. I see with the forty nine ers
all the time. When Trent Williams gets gets injured, It's like,
what do we do? And the answer is there's nothing
you can do because your swing tackle can never just
step in. I hate you know, the Lions over the
last couple of years have actually had a pretty good
swing tackle, but it's why their offensive line's been awesome.
But for the most part, like there's a massive drop

(07:57):
off with your third tackle been given a that your starter,
especially when that starter is a high end guy. But
I think we've seen, like, you know, Derek Carr thirty
years ago is still playing football, right, but he's made
over two hundred million dollars, And it's like, you know what,
just kind of over this, not not dealing with the
politics of this business. And Frank is like, you know what,

(08:18):
thirty years ago, when again, NFL players were still making
a lot of money in the nineties, they weren't making
life changing, generational changing money when you were the center
in nineteen eighty seven. You keep playing because Frank, Hell,
he could make ten million dollars in this upcoming season. Hell,
he could hold out because he has no guaranteed money

(08:40):
left on his contract and surely get a raise. I mean,
he's scheduled to make like nine and a half million
dollars in actual cash. I bet he could get that
number easily up to fifteen plus million dollars. But You're like,
you know, it's not even worth it to me. I
don't even want to deal with this. And who knows.
He's young enough that maybe in a year, maybe he's
feeling better, that he gets his the itch, and trust me,

(09:01):
there would be either the Lions or other teams willing
to scratch that itch. But I think a huge element
of these decisions, even going back to Calvin Johnson, you know,
I think Barry Sanders' decision was strictly based on this franchise.
Fucking sucks. This is not fun, this is this is
a miserable experience running around and never winning. I do

(09:25):
think the guys that we've seen in recent memory have
factored in pain. And I'm super rich, it's just not
worth it. Patrick Willis had the feet. I think Calvin
Johnson had the feet as well. You know, Derek Carr
has this messed up shoulder. Those are just ones that
come to mind. It's like, you know what, I don't
need the money anymore. Aaron Donald, I mean Aaron Donald's
still kicking ass and taking names. He's like, I already

(09:47):
banked one hundred million dollars. I'm good, Doug, I'm out.
I've already accomplished everything've set out to accomplished. I still
feel good. I see some of these clips. I saw
an Instagram reel of Aaron Donald lifting. It's like, Jesus,
guy looks fan, he looks like he could you'd make
it all pro this season. If he came back, I
would actually been on it. But it's like, you know what,

(10:07):
it's not worth it to me because football, more than
these other sports like baseball, you just play every single night.
You don't practice, take a little VP, and you play basketball.
If you're on a good team by like Christmas, you
don't even you don't practice at all either. I don't
think Lebron James teams have practiced in like a decade,
so like football is the one sport where you practice

(10:29):
and mentally practice with meetings and rehab and working on
your body and lifting way more than you get to play.
I say this all the time because I think it's
one of the great quotes of all time, ray Lewis saying,
you pay me Monday through Saturday. Sundays are for free
because playing football at any level, if you've played in
high school, if you played pee wee's, if you good

(10:51):
enough to play in college, the games are the fun part, right.
It's everything else that sucks. And I think it's made
these decisions for some of these guys that could I
battle through a couple more years of this pain for
another twenty million dollars, which most humans would do well,
it's easy to go. Yeah, it's not quite worth it

(11:11):
when you've already made millions of dollars. And I think
that's really the number one factor here. CJ. Stroud is
not practicing because of shoulder soreness. I would say he's
a little concerning, you know, mainly because this is a
big time of year where the on the field stuff
is easy, but it's really learning the offense and repping

(11:34):
the offense when you have a new coordinator. I wouldn't
he might not even talk about this for more than
a minute. If Bobby Slow kid came back and they
had cohesion at the open, it's like, well, he's had
the same offensive coordinator for three three years, but they
fired that guy. They have a new offensive coordinator. So
even if they're gonna run some of the same base offense,

(11:55):
which I would imagine, they're gonna keep a lot of
stuff in there, and who knows, maybe they run a
very similar play and it was just the offensive line sock.
But not being able to practice because of shoulder soreness
is a little alarming and makes me a little nervous
if I was a Houston Texas fan, because this should
be the easiest time to practice. Like sometimes that happens

(12:16):
in training camp. You're throwing a lot, you're fatigued. We
see it all the time this time of year. I mean,
you should be able to make enough throws in your sleep.
So there's a lot of pressure on this guy. He
had an incredible rookie season last year. I mean they
were a team that I might have sprinkled a little
money on to be the number one seat, that they
were really really underwhelming. I actually kind of think this

(12:37):
year could be a bounce back season because we know
their defense is going to be good. If their offense
is just a little bit better and they can run
the ball and they just stay a little healthy and
they block a little bit better, they're like, they clearly
have a good quarterback. But sometimes I don't know this
is this is just something to monitor because you don't
just you know, precautionary reasons like no, this is shoulder hurts. Yes,

(13:01):
that's a problem. So it's just a lot of pressure
on this guy. And now if he's healthy, they not
only should be the heavy favorite to win this division,
but like they should win a lot of games. Division sucks.
So I was excited about the Texans. Last year, I
think everyone was too and now I think everyone's gonna

(13:21):
pivot off them. I'm gonna pivot back, but it makes
it a little bit harder to feel confident about that
when CJ. Stroud can't even throw a practice. June third,
I saw Josh McDaniels had some quotes about Drake May
and you know, coaching new guys, and you know, sometimes
screwing up in practice is better than having a good play,

(13:41):
especially in OTAs, because you can coach off of it,
and that's how you can really improve because every guy,
it's much easier to learn by doing on the field,
and when you screw up, it's easy to hammer that
home and when you go to training camp. And I
started thinking, there is no disputing when Josh McDaniels was

(14:01):
with Brady, especially that stretch when he came back in
the twenty tens, it was remarkable what they did. You know,
a lot of that time Gronk was pretty beat up.
Their best wide receiver was Julian Edelman, who's a stud.
I love Jules, but I mean it's don't get him
compared to like he's not Randy Moss or Jerry Rice
or justin Jefferson or anything. They had a lot of

(14:23):
random running backs. They had, you know, solid offensive lines,
but a lot of that was being coached up by
many would consider the greatest offensive line coach of all time,
Dante Scarnekia. Obviously Jeff Stotlin's making a push to join
him in that category, but like that doesn't exist anymore.
Dante's retired. Ernie Adams isn't giving you notes every week,

(14:46):
Bill Belichick is at North Carolina, and Tom Brady's not
playing quarterback for you anymore. I thought when the Raiders
hired Josh McDaniels, I believed in it. I thought it
was gonna work. Not only did it not work, it
was a historic failure. He's the only guy to not
make it to year two or you know, through two seasons,
in multiple spots in the history of the NFL. The

(15:06):
guy was fired with Denver and then the Raiders in
the middle of year two. Both times. It's crazy. It's
like it literally has never happened. Now he's not the
head coach, he's the offensive coordinator. But like he had
a pretty good We talk about infrastructure a lot with quarterbacks, right,
Like how lucky Jalen is to have such a good GM,
to have an owner that's willing to pay for coordinators.

(15:30):
His head coach is supported with great offensive assistant coaches.
He has a great offensive line. You know, Jared Goff
has had Sean McVay. Now he's got the Lions and
their infrastructure. Like, you need help. You don't control your personnel,
you don't control the scheme. A lot of stuff is
out of your control. Well, like a lot of offensive
coordinators go to jobs and the quarterback sucks. You know,

(15:52):
their line sucks. Their head coach doesn't know what he's doing.
It's like, well, you get Mike Rabel, I know he
knows what he's doing, but Dante's not there to coach
the offensive lie anymore. And Bill Belichick isn't there to
hold your hand. And I bought into this, but I
do think it's pretty important for Josh McDaniels if we're
gonna take him seriously, Like, I think the Patriots should
make the playoffs, and I think they should win nine

(16:14):
plus games. Their schedules easy. We know their coach is good,
and we know their defense we saw two years ago
with a lot of the same players, and they've added
some guys this offseason. She's gonna be pretty good, but offensively, Like,
what's Josh doing here? You know, what's he like when
Bill's nowhere to be found? Because we've seen him as
a head coach. When Bill's know where to be found,

(16:36):
it's a fucking tire fire. Like it's a crazy it
doesn't get any worse. You know, we make so much
fun of some of these guys, and it's like just
because this guy's more buttoned up and you know, more articulate,
like he's kind of Jim Tom Sooley, right, it's kind
of like pretty ugly. You know, think of some of

(16:56):
Joe Judge, who's a McDaniel's guy, But just think of
some of these scenarios that we just made so much
fun of. You know, Josh can just handle himself a
little bit better in front of the media that he
doesn't get that treatment, but his results are kind of
like that. Now. When he was with Tom, they were
ass kickers, and what they did in playoff games was
I'll never forget as long as I live that second.

(17:18):
You know, iteration of their three championships was incredible to watch,
and they did it with a lot of guys who
probably aren't gonna be in Canton, Ohio, so I'm pretty
excited to watch. You know what, Josh mcnams we getting
this year? Are we getting the guy that most considered
one of, if not the best offensive coordinator in the league.
Are we getting the guy that actually was all Bill
and Tom? I don't know the answer to that. The

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Speaker 1 (20:32):
I saw that Tyler Geiden, who was the Cowboys first
round pick, said that he was terrible last year. I mean, essentially,
I'm not not verbatim, but it didn't go well. Now,
granted they drafted him, he was a project, and it
can be overwhelming when you're a project and you're thrust
into a situation, especially for a team like the Cowboys.
But I do think for a lot of guys that

(20:55):
didn't just have like seamless rookie seasons or seasons that
by the end of it, you're like god, Like Jared Verse,
no one's questioning like is Jared Verse any good? Or
Quinnyon Mitchell with the Eagles. It's like, these guys are
just good, you know, this is just a player, Like
this guy's a player. A lot of guys like pretty
up and down right, a lot of guys like is

(21:17):
this guy good? Is this guy gonna be one of
our cornerstone pieces? We have no clue. That's where the
off season for players like that is enormous, you know,
because when you're a rookie. I saw I think a
headline that Mason Graham the guy the Browns took number
five overall from from from Michigan, Like he didn't look

(21:37):
good in rookie meeting camp or OTAs. Like, guys, do
you understand that most of these players, especially a bigger
guy let's say an offensive or defensive linement. They have
not been training. Once the combine ends, they start flying around.
They're just meeting with people constantly, they're eating shitty food
that they are they're completely out of their routine. And

(21:58):
a football player, it's almost like someone in the military.
Their life is very buttoned up on a daily basis.
They know minute by minute, hour by hour, day by
day what they're doing from on the field to off
the field, to training to eating. It's all kind of
mapped out. Especially when you're at a big time school
like a Texas in Michigan, Ohio state like it's it's

(22:18):
pretty regimented. There's not much just screw around time for
weeks on end. And I'm not saying these guys screw
around during the draft process, but they're just being flown
all over the place, meeting with people, and you're not
really working out. And I think sometimes like it's then
you get to a place you're trying to learn the scheme,
you're trying to learn the coaches, trying to learn the
name of all your team. There's a lot going on,

(22:40):
and I think anyone that has an awesome rookie season
that's impressive, right, most guys, if they have an up
and down rookie season, that's kind of part for the course.
But your second year, like you get the whole off season,
You get a lay of the land. You know you're building,
you know, especially in a place like even for Tyler Guiden,
while he has a new head coach, the new head

(23:02):
coach was there, so he has a relationship with Brian Schottenneimer,
and you just kind of know your way around, and
it's a time when you really can hone in on
your craft. And I think the off season, especially for
offensive and defensive linemen, are huge on the fundamentals. And
for an offensive lineman that's a project. The way they
get good is and this is boring, and this is

(23:23):
not something that would you know, if you broke it
down on a daily basis, no one would listen. But
the fundamentals of playing offensive tackle is like make or
break the success of ninety nine percent of people. There's
a small group of guys in the history of the
league at tackle they can just kind of get away
with Like, Eh, step was off, but Orlando pace didn't matter, right,

(23:45):
Walter Jones, Trent Williams, Like it's Jason Peters trip got
up and threw the defensive end seven feet the other way,
and that's not normal. Most guys have to be fundamentally sound.
And the way you build good fundamentals is, you know,
in practice, but specifically right now when you can really
really hone in on it. So I think there are

(24:05):
guys all over the league young players. And it's not
even just first round picks. It's guys that made the
team at guys that played all over you know, second, third,
fourth rounders. This is a huge, huge time of year
for them. Other than that, I you know, Tibbs was fired.
I met Tom years ago when I was doing radio.

(24:25):
I used to go to a lot of Warriors stuff
and Tom. I think it was after he was fired
by the Bills. You know, Steve Kerr was big on
bringing these guys in and just they would hang out
and he was around a lot, or at least for
a couple of months. I remember. In it might have
been before Durant got there, so it might have been
like fifteen or fourteen with the Warriors, and I remember

(24:45):
just bsing with him and talking to him for a while.
He's a good guy, easy to talk to. Back that
was decade ago, but he got fired today and he
obviously led the Knicks to their best season and two
and a half day acades. And I think one hard
thing as a coach. And I would say this in
football and in basketball, and you could say this in

(25:06):
baseball too. The difference is in baseball they got a
ton of managers making like nine hundred grand. Like in basketball,
guy like Tom or any top coach is making millions
of dollars. Obviously, the head coaches in the NFL are
making a huge cash. They are so tunnel vision with
their team, especially late in the season in the playoff run,
that there's not a huge political element to the way

(25:28):
their job is built. Their only focus is try to
win games, deal with their assistance, and deal with their players. Now,
you've got to be a little political, I guess with
your players, especially in basketball, maybe a little more in football,
but like that's your focus. Where a GM's job is
actually much closer to just like a normal corporate job
in terms of running a huge budget. Their budget happens

(25:51):
to be the salary cap. You know, you negotiate a
lot of contracts. Hell, you negotiate a lot of your
coaching contracts. And I think I think that leads to
just natural backstabbing because at the end of the day,
I would say ninety nine percent of executives could never coach.
They won They don't even have the capability of doing it. Two,

(26:13):
they don't they wouldn't have the personality to even attempt
to do that, And they wouldn't want to do that.
I mean, part of being a good coach is wanting
to help other people, right, Like you do have to
have some level of patience to be a good coach,
right Andy Reid, Bill Belichick, Pete Carroll to you know,
basketball coaches from Spoe Toccur or whatever. There has to

(26:35):
be some sort of balance whereas an executive you can
just be very cutthroat. It's why what Bill was able
to manage for twenty years was pretty incredible, Like because
he had to coach the guys and get to know him,
but they also knew that, like he was in charge
of their money and he could cut you, fire you,
trade you at any moment. Like Andy's always had a GM,

(26:56):
so he could always kind of play the role of
good cop, bad cough, which is probably the healthiest thing
to do. It's like spow In Miami's got pat Riley
to play the bad guy, right. It's really really hard,
especially in this modern day with the amount of money
that's on the line of like doing it yourself. And
I think when I see that he gets fired, it's
like it's so easy for executives to point the finger

(27:18):
at the coach and listen, sometimes maybe he should get fired,
Maybe there is a better option out there. But I
just think it's You see it in the NFL a
lot during the season, and Michael Lombardi used to talk
about this all the time. Where do most gms sit.
They sit next to the owner in the suite. Well,
even if you're a good team, you're losing four or
five games. I mean, if you're a shitty team, you're

(27:40):
losing well over half your games. What do you think
the vibe is. Think of you as a fan when
you're sitting on your couch. If your team wins six
games that season, how angry you are most of those Sundays? Well,
what do you think those guys that work seventy eighty
hour weeks that pick the players are telling the owner
good things are bad things. It's why they're always pointing

(28:02):
the fingers. And some guys get that reputation. Trent Balky
has it really bad that he is the ultimate backstabber.
But I think most guys intentionally or not just naturally
kind of lean that way because it's survival. It's why. Honestly,
it's kind of impressive that in the giant situation that
Joe Shane and Brian da ball and maybe I've missed it,

(28:22):
there haven't been like super explosive articles of like one
guy tried to backstab the other guy and maybe maybe
that happened, or maybe it will happen, But it feels
inevitable when you lose that it happens when you win,
and it happens. Man, that shows you that there are
some people in there that I don't know if you
could trust.

Speaker 3 (28:42):
Blending Vice's signature dynamic storytelling with the high octane world
of sports, Vice Sports brings an exciting and diverse range
of programming that goes beyond the game. Catch action packed
live events, and exclusive sports documentaries and profiles only on
Vice TV.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Let's do a little mailbag at John Middlecoff. At John
Middlecoff is the Instagram fire in those dms, get your
questions answered here on the show, Like Chase Steeler fan here.
With all the offensive problems the Steelers have, could it
all really be fixed with the right young quarterback or
would the Steelers current setup only serve to stunt a

(29:20):
young quarterback's growth. My brother is a lifelong Commanders fan,
and I'm sure he would have called me crazy a
year ago had I told him the right guy would
have them in the NFC Championship. If the Steelers were
suddenly given Jaden Daniel talent, would they be crazy good
with the current infrastry. Yes, I think it's a long

(29:41):
way away. If I give any talented team. I mean,
you guys. You guys are winning nine ten games every
year with just a hodgepodge of different quarterback options, from
Trubisky to Piket to Mason Rudolph to I guess now Rogers.

(30:03):
Who If Rogers the quarterback, you'll probably win nine to
ten again too. Now, I think if Mason Rudolph's got
to be your full time quarterback and Rogers never shows up,
you'd be in trout. If I gave you Jaydeen Daniels
or Josh Allen or just some elite guy, you'd be
fucking good. I mean, yes, you would be good. Would
you win the Super Bowl? I don't know. Maybe, I
mean last year defense was playing like crap at the

(30:25):
end of the season, But yes, it would. It would
dramatically change some stuff. Now, the AFC, especially your division,
is a little harder than some plights to get where
you want to go. But I do think with a
team like the Steelers, I think it would have dramatic impact. Yes,

(30:48):
my question is realistically, how do you think the Chargers
will do. I've been a diired fan since the qualcom days,
and I truly believe it's one of the hardest teams
to be a fan of. No super bowls, haven't won
our division well over a decade. And although I think
Herbert is an amazing quarterback and is all the talent,
the playoff performance is kill him. Give a brother some hope.

(31:10):
I'd be pretty bullish. Just look at Harbaugh's track record.
He wins, so I would say I'd be pretty cocky
about being a playoff team. Now, how that meshes how
we look is gonna come down to, like Sklil Mack
giv you twelve sacks, does the rookie running back give
you thirteen hundred yards or ten? You know, I almost

(31:32):
a ten hundred yards one thousand yards and like forty
five catches and becomes like a complete back for you,
and Nase's is a solid role player, and your running
game is more consistent than last year because because of
the injuries, I'd feel pretty good. You have a high
end coach, you have an excellent defensive coordinator. Division's hard,

(31:55):
Division's hard. But I would like my chances if I
were you. Remember I picked you guys to make the
playoffs last year four to one, and every Tom, Dick
and Harry was like middle cooffe, You're an idiot. They're
not good enough. Well, actually they are because Gim Harbaugh's

(32:16):
as a Bears fan who thought Naggi had all the
goods to become an elite head coach play caller. Knowing
what we know now, Trubisky is a career backup and
the overall success Naggi had with the organization two playoff
appearances in four years. Do you think he gets another
head coaching opportunity in the league or does he take
over in Kansas City when Andy decides to retire. I

(32:40):
think gets another shot. I mean, I mean, I'm biased here,
Naggy's my guy, but I'm trying to look up how
old he is. He's forty seven years old. He's on
the most consistent franchise with the best quarterback in the
league for years now. I'd be stunned, especially if they

(33:01):
you know, some of these offensive guys hit and they're
a high end offense. Again, like you said, listen, the
Bear's tough place to coach, and Trubisky, Trubisky is bad,
seems like a good guy. I saw Josh Allen had
him in his wedding, high character, and I've knew some
people beside Naggie that worked at the Bears. Everyone liked
them like people like Mitch Trubisky. The person, bad player,

(33:25):
no feel, no instincts, no touch. Hard to win with
a guy like that, And listen, I think, like a
lot of people, he's going to be dependent on a
good coordinator. And when he had Vic Fangio, that team
was really good and that double doink. I think thousand
percent he'll get another shot. Thirty eight years old, three

(33:47):
kids under nine, healthcare sixty. This guy's a grinder. I
love football and I love the Bills. I love winning
money even more. You have mentioned some big wins on
Pod Guess with so many games, so many potential bets,
how do you zero in on a few bets to
make each week? Well, some of my biggest bets have

(34:10):
been in golf, where you get crazier odds, so you
bet five hundred dollars on someone to win twenty to one.
You know, do the math, you're winning ten grand. So
to win a lot of money in football, you got
to put a lot of money down. And I've also lost.
I mean, I've had some devastating playoff losses. I think

(34:31):
football I really pick and choose. I would say I
just whatever I believe in the most. I think the
hard part is with football for me, is part of
gambling is obviously you follow it, you follow the numbers,
and you also get a gut feel like I really
like this team in this spot, but like I don't
really get a high off betting one hundred dollars, So

(34:54):
I got to be kind of careful because I love
to gamble, So I just kind of pick and choose.
I mean, and there's a game or two each week
that I that I like. Same with college football, and
I also to kind of keep me involved sometimes because
I don't always feel comfortable, you know, just betting thousands
of dollars. You know, football's I mean, it can be
fucking easy to easy to lose. I do do a

(35:16):
lot of parlays. That's where I can bet fifty bucks
a hundred bucks and be entertained for the day, so
I can take three teams or definitely like three guys
to score a touchdown. That's one thing I started doing
last year. I think there was one parlay I hit
with a player prop that was like one hundred and

(35:37):
fifty dollars and paid like seventy five hundred dollars. It
was like, I forget like three or four guys to
score touchdowns and Jamar Chase to score two. And it
was a mon ant football game and Jamar Skate Chase
had two touchdowns. It was incredible. So I kind of
do that sometimes more than do super aggressive bets on
football games, because like listen, you have five grand on

(36:00):
the Niners in the Super Bowl and all of a
sudden they lose. It sucks. I've learned my lesson, don't
bet against the Chiefs unless they're playing the Eagles in
the Super Bowl last year, which I didn't touch. I
just bet a lot on golf because of odds. I mean,
because I can bag eye top ten or top twenties.
It's like four to one odds. Where in football to

(36:23):
get plus three point fifty, I mean that is a
massive underdog. Dear John, this is Jocko, not the famous podcaster.
My question relates to podcasting and commentating on the NFL.
Do you think the podcasting pipeline will eventually lead to
commentating people like Edelman, Taylor, Lwan, and Kelsey would be great.

(36:48):
They could bring new fresh ideas to the table and
help commenting grow. Do you think it could would go
if offered big bucks? Well, let's use Kelsey as an example.
He does do Thursday night football on the panel, right
or I guess he's on Monday night football, so he travels.

(37:08):
But it's a little less work to do the pre
and postgame show than it would be to call the game.
Like there's a lot of pressure there. Let's use Luwan
as a better example. I'm with you. I think he'd
be good, big personality, Players like him, coaches like him.
Just easy hang Edelman, same thing. Those guys are making
a lot of money. I mean, Taylor's making a huge

(37:30):
money now. The fan duel bought his podcast. Same thing
with Will Compton. I think Will Compton be good. You
don't always just need to be a huge famous name.
But it's like I want to travel every single week
to a different game, and most of these guys aren't flying,
like I gotta go to the airport like travel like
me and you. So it's tough. I mean, for Tony
Romo and Tom Brady, traveling sucks, but it's a lot

(37:52):
easier in the PJ. Yeah yeah, waiting in the Southwest
line B thirty two right, Hey, are you be thirty one?
Want to be thirty three? Right? They fucking just go
to the airport, take off, come home after the game.
So I think it's hard back to the Frank Ragnow
thing retiring. These guys made big money, so to get me.
These guys have young kids to fly around like. You

(38:16):
can make a really good living podcasting. You don't have
to go anywhere. I mean, how I'm seeking office space.
I could do this from home forever. Not that I
will never not have a home office, but it's like
I do need to get out of the house. So
I've been looking around for office space because I got
to mix sit up. Uh my question, my little brother

(38:38):
is getting recruited by some big programs like Florida, Indiana, Kentucky.
My question is, what do you think big time recruits
should be looking at when choosing a school. I feel
like stability and opportunity are the biggest things, But is
there anything else vital that you think we should be considering.
I would say this, the thought of what matters and

(39:03):
what doesn't matter has changed dramatically over the last couple
of years, because one you could be like, choose the school,
choose a program that you're comfortable with, a coaching staff
that you're comfortable with. We know, it's all kind of
bs right, unless you're going to play for like Kirby
Smart the schools you just listed Florida, if their coach
doesn't win, he's going to get fired. I mean Indiana.

(39:26):
I know they had a great season last year, but
they're going to be at a huge disadvantage on a
yearly basis to Penn State to Ohio State, to Michigan
to Oregon, Kentucky. Impressive school. I mean Mark Stoop's long
term contract, so that's like that, that's a good example.
Guy is probably gonna be there for a little while.
But these coaches can all leave, and your coordinator and
position coaches can all leave. You know, most guys make

(39:48):
these decisions now based on money. If things don't go well,
you can change schools. So, like I said, I'm always
a huge believer in gut. You can only go off
who's recruiting you and if they are recruiting, like how
much do they pay and what are they telling you?
Because regardless of what they're telling you, like that changes
once you get there. Unless you're like, I can't miss

(40:09):
top ten recruit whatever they're telling you is kind of
a lie. There's no guarantee you will start, there's no
guarantee you'll play hell, you have to fight for your
money potentially even with nil. So I think I don't
think you can ever go wrong playing in the SEC,
because if you do break into the starting lineup in
the SEC, you are in a direct path of the
NFL at Florida or Kentucky, that's for sure. So I

(40:33):
would say in Indiana's obviously in the Big Ten. I mean,
these are the best two conferences in the country. So
playing in that conference at that level, you're closer to
the NFL than most college football players. It also means
it's really hard to get on the field because they
have a bunch of NFL guys that you have to pass.
So it's gonna be difficult no matter where you want
to go. My advice would be this is it's one

(40:58):
thing that the coach tells you, we don't want you
here anymore, so you transfer. I think too many guys
transfer too fast, like let this settle, like you're gonna
leave Florida for it's gonna pick a school like Kansas State.
No shade to Kansas State, impressive program. I'm My point
is like what if in the year you would have
been starting at Florida. You know, I think too many

(41:20):
guys are just too quick to leave because they're not playing.
Like historically, most guys don't play right away. Most guys
are not like Reggie Bush. You know, It's it's pretty
difficult to go from high school to Florida and play,
so it might take a couple of years. If the
coach wants you, I'd stay. So my advice would be
go sec. I would have no problem going to Big ten,

(41:43):
but I would go to Florida over Indiana. If Mike
tom Wins fired next year, who would the next best
candidate be. Secondly, I saw your take on Tom Hardy.

(42:07):
I agree to a degree. However, I highly recommend Peaky Blinders.
I think I said that Tom Hardy was pretty overrated,
and then I actually retracted that you might have missed
the podcast because I watched mob Land so the finale
to go. But he's good in that, he's entertaining. Maybe
I was too harsh on him. He is talented, I do.
Maybe I was just trying to go against the grain.

(42:28):
To go against the grain, I thought the move would
have been this year trade by Tomlin and go get
Ben Johnson. It was handed there on a silver platter.
So I don't know. I don't have the answer for
you or even Mike Vrabel, but they didn't want to
do that. So the Tomlin fired conversation. Unless they have

(42:53):
like a historically bad season, I'm just done talking about
because they're not gonna fire him. He's gonna be their
coach forever, maybe until he's like eighty. At this rate,
the NFC's North feels wide open. The Vikings have a
rookie quarterback known more for handing off. Detroit lost both
as coordinators. Could we see an Eagles style fall off.

(43:15):
The Packers have had a twenty five year old quarterback,
but we still don't really know if he's the guy.
And with the brutal schedule ahead the whole division, I'm
curious who do you think regresses the most. I was
actually thinking about this the other day. The division's obviously
very talented. I mean, the rosters are stacked, the teams
are a lot of talent, but sneaky's some question marks
for a really like there are way less question marks

(43:38):
with like the one thing you know is if Joe
Burrow is your quarterback, if the coach can just start
a little faster, they're gonna win ten games. And obviously
the Ravens are pretty dominant team, and the Steelers they
got some issues. But if Aaron Rodgers are quarterback, they're
probably just gonna be floating around at nine ish wins. Right,
someone has to lose in the NFC North, Right, Not

(44:02):
everyone can win ten to fourteen games. Someone's gonna have
like seven or eight wins. The Bears first time head coach,
and you know a quarterback that has some scars from
last year, Like you said, the Vikings, the quarterback, we'll
see is he good enough? I don't know. The Lions
just lost their center, lost their two coordinators. It's just

(44:22):
that's a lot, right, I mean, it really is. And
the Packers, I mean, there's just a pressure on Jordan
Love like two years ago that last eight games, Like
is that actually who you are? Or what have we
got going on? You convinced me that I think it'd
be a little shocking if the Bears won the division,
But you could convince me the other three teams won

(44:43):
the division as of June third, and I'm probably gonna
pick the Packers but don't feel great about it. But
you could give me any combination be like Packers Bears
make the playoffs. It'd be hard. I mean, it'd be
pretty crazy if the Lions didn't make the playoffs, even
how good they were. But I could definitely see them
take a step back from fifteen wins. If you tell

(45:04):
me they win ten or eleven, that might be more realistic.
Seahawks fans, specifically, a question on Sam Donald. I'm not
super high on Donald, but you have to give the
guy some credit for his play last season, and or
at least you would think it seems the general consensus
is that Donald will be below average quarterback this year

(45:24):
after putting up top ten stats. If we revitalize our
establish the run mentality, I'm actually inclined to think he's
in a decent position to succeed. How do you think
the season plays out? I saw that he like through
a couple interceptions in practice, And then McDonald had gone
to do a radio interview at the local radio station

(45:47):
and they asked him like, what are the scenarios in
which Sam donald could get benched? And Mike was like,
kind of, I don't want to say lost it, but
in fairness was like, what are we talking about? This
is insane? Guys are quarterback. It just shows you, like
when you bounce around and you and I don't. It
wasn't his choice, Like the Vikings didn't want him back.

(46:09):
So there's a difference of like Lebron chooses to his
you know, and Kevin Durant and all these guys like
choose to be mercenaries, and some guys like Kirk Cousins,
the Vikings didn't want him anymore. Sam Darnold, the Vikings
didn't want him anymore. Like he didn't choose to be
a mercenary. He just didn't have a choice. But when
that is your route, whether you choose or you don't choose.
If things don't go well, it's like you don't have

(46:31):
the equity with that franchise. So there's pressure. Like this
team they have been. If you just ask the casual fan, like,
how did the Seahawks been the last three years? I
think most people be like, oh, yeah, Pete Carroll got
fired last year, they missed the playoffs. I think they
went nine to ninety ten. Like, I'm pretty sure Seattle
the last three years has had better seasons than people realize.

(46:54):
I think most people would say that, yeah, like seven
and ten, so the last three years eight, nine and eight,
ten and seven. So he's not coming to a team
that's like, oh, yeah, they've been They've went win like
five six games. I mean they're averaging a little over
nine wins the season for the last three years. Think
about it, how many teams? What would the New York

(47:16):
Giants and Brian daballdo to be like, yeah, our last
three seasons, we've won twenty eight games. How about you.
Obviously you'd rather be the Chiefs or the Ravens or whatever,
but twenty eight wins in three seasons, Like, not bad?
Do twenty eight divided by three, it's over nine. I
mean so, I mean last year you missed the playoffs.
You win ten games, not bad, but but to me,

(47:39):
that adds pressure on him, which I have to study.
The depth chart. You lose DK who had felt like
they were kind of over cut. Lockett, it's gonna it's
gonna be interesting. I think they're gonna be solid, but
that ending does Darnold's season did not go well. I'm

(48:00):
We're early in the process of making the biggest decision
of my life Jesus, that being choosing my college major.
I know you're young and it feels that way, but
I promise you it's not. I'm stuck as I want
to pursue a career in sports and major in sports management,
but I have everyone around me, including my family, telling

(48:22):
me that's not the smart thing to do and that
the major is pointless. I have already built a small
following on TikTok, but I'm lost. Is a sports management
major truly pointless? What do I do? So? I take
it you're you're not in college. You're trying to get
to college and you have to apply to different majors,

(48:45):
or you're already in college and you have a major
in trying to switch. I would say this. My undergrad
major at cal Poly was ag business. Let me repeat that,
ag business. Now, granted it was a essentially a business
degree because I took a bunch of classes in the
business department. But I'm pretty sure on my diploma wherever

(49:07):
that is in the closet, it says from the School
of Agriculture. And my master's degree at Fresno State when
I was a GA is in sports business. I promise
you this. Those two pieces of paper and those two
titles mean absolutely nothing for the course of my career.
If I'd be sitting here if I was an our
history major, if I was a business major, it did

(49:29):
not impact where I got in this world in terms
of sports. So I would say sports is a field
unlike being a doctor, a lawyer, an architect, where the
major is not as important. So if you want to
pursue a career in sports while you're in college sports management,
I mean, it depends on your school. Maybe they have

(49:51):
some connections, but I truly don't believe it matters. I
think that you could do. I would say you're better
off with just a degree. If this is possible have
a business degree then and pursue something in sports than
have a sports management degree. I don't think you're any

(50:11):
more likely to make progress because of the sports business degree. Again,
depending on the school, maybe there are different examples, but
I truly believe this that I don't think it matters now.
I also think the people telling you that it's worthless, like,
are they just coming from a position that they think

(50:33):
it's a stupid major. The classes I took at Fresno
State with a graduate degree in quote on sports sports
management were pretty pointless. Now, that was two thousand and
eight and two thousand and nine. That was a long
time ago, So maybe it's changed. But I don't know.

(50:57):
If you had total power to make changes to the
NBA to boost popularity, what changes would you put in place?

Speaker 3 (51:06):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (51:08):
Well, I just don't think you can change the load
management stuff. Clearly there it's pointless to talk about reducing
the amount of games. I think I heard Winhorse say this,
and he's right. Basketball is actually much closer to baseball
than it is football. It's an inventory and a quantity
sport more than like an impact quality sport on a
weekly basis, Like they make their huge money because they

(51:31):
have so many games. And I mean sometimes Maria looked
at me the other day, I want to turn on
the Knicks game. She's like, God, the play still playing basketball.
I'm like, yeah, they're not even to the finals yet.
They stretch out these playoffs for a long time basketball.
In my experience, and I've been a it's crazy. I
saw the who put this out. If there was a

(51:51):
game seven at Madison Square Garden, the going rates for
different prices, you know, I think to sit on the
floor was I mean, like, I forget the number, it
was huge, but even the get in price, the get
in price was thousands of dollars. This was probably like
two thousand and two. But I remember being in high
school and it might have been the first could have
been the second round. Now it was the last row

(52:14):
at Arcole Arena where the King's played. Me and my
buddy Egh went to a Mavericks playoff game. Remember we
got a little little stoned. I think we hit it.
We brought an apple with us and I don't even
know if kids need to do that anymore. But back
in my day, you had to get weed and like
from a dealer behind a McDonald's or a Burger King.
Now you just press an app and they come to

(52:35):
your front door and you give them a credit card.
But we paid twenty dollars a ticket, forty dollars for
two tickets. Again, times have changed, but basketball is always
going to be dependent on the stars. It's like this
combination of it's like football, where it's a team game.
That's why I always push back when people go the
league's never been more talented. It's not an individual sport.

(52:57):
Guys the teams, so yeah, they might be more talent
than the nineties, but you can't convince me that the
teams in the nineties, I don't know when they played
together for a decade plus, we're not better. Obviously, you
change a little bit of your roster. But basketball, a
lot like football, is very dependent on chemistry. The longer
you play with someone, the better you are. I think
Stephan Draymond just showed up playing like that together. No,

(53:18):
they've been playing together for fifteen years. Steph playing Draymond.
It's a huge advantage for them. And I think you're
just dependent on the stars. So I think people push
back of like, Ah, they keep riding Steph Curry and Lebron,
James All hard to blame them. Those guys are dramatically
more famous than all these other stars, and there is
an element. My guy, Ethan Strauss has been writing about
this for a long time. One thing football does not

(53:39):
have to battle is all their star players are always
going to be from America. And really, beside Jordan Mailatta,
all their star players and high end players, especially at quarterback,
play college football, and most of them, like even if
you don't go to a quote unquote true powerhouse like
Texas Texas power for conference, Josh Allen's a little bit
of outlier, you know, Lamar Louisville. Joe Burrow played at

(54:03):
LSU in Ohio State. Baker Mayfield played at Oklahoma. Kyler
Murray played at Oklahoma. Jared Goff played at Cow which
used to be better than it is now. But you
know what I mean, Like these guys play at real schools,
you know, in the in the NBA, Like Honest didn't
playing college, not from America. Jokis did not play in college,
not from America. Luca not from America. I mean, it's

(54:26):
just it's hard. I mean, I grew up the NBA
couldn't have been much bigger. Michael Jordan is like on
the Mount Rushmore of superstar athletes. You could say he's
number one, the most marketable athlete in the history of America.
And then that just kind of rolled into Kobe, shack
Lebron and Curry. They're just all time marketable athletes. Shay

(54:47):
Gillis Alexander is never going to be that. He has
no chance to ever be that, zero chance. I honestly
feel that the players aren't even nearly as famous as
they used to be. I know people always say that
like NBA players so much more famous. I feel they're
not nearly as famous as like guys. When I was
growing up, the star players in the NBA felt like

(55:08):
they were bigger culturally, like Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, obviously
Bird Magic and Michael, but even the next crew of guys.
So I just think, you know, David cern was great
at this. I think he's the best commissioner of my
life any sport because I think what he had to
do is harder than what Roger had to do, and
I think Roger. I'd put Roger second, but he understood

(55:31):
the power of stars, and I just I don't think
that it's not all Adam's fault. I mean, the better
players are coming internationally, it's a problem. I mean, if
Cooper Flagg could be a star, it'd be awesome. The
WNBA is big not because there's some resurgence in women's basketball.
It's because of Caitlin fucking Clark that she's just an

(55:52):
all time outlier. And I saw some quotes from the
wa NBA commissioner like she won't even embrace him, Like
I'm shorting you, I would fire you. If I was
Adam and I'm subsidizing that league, I would fire that woman.
I would have to replace her because she's not gonna
be good enough. You have this opportunity. Who knows how
long it's gonna be. We see what caitlin hurt rating

(56:13):
started dropping. So you're just only as strong as your stars.
And most individual sports, all individual sports are like that, right, Tennis, golf, racing.
Team sports can be a little bit different, but basketball
is not. Basketball is a team game driven by their
individual stars. And right now there two biggest stars in

(56:35):
the NBA by a mile or old. So you don't
you're not gonna have them forever.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Last question, what is your viewing experience? So I don't
have a good answer there because I think that the
even Luca, who probably has a good chance because with
the Lakers, but I just feel like their appeal is
just gonna be different than American stars. What is your
viewing experience like for guys like you and come and
to digest these games for a living on Sundays in

(57:03):
the fall? Are you able to have a cocktail and
enjoy the games? Is it sobering day at the office
or something in between? Bonus questions? Do you use any
apps to help track stats gather information than betting apps
in ESPN? Yeah, I would say listen, I watched football
for a living, so you know, there's a difference of

(57:24):
being at the office and working hard or being outside
and digging ditches. It is in terms of taxing physically
and even emotionally. It ain't that crazy emotionally. Now, if
you got a lot of money on a game you're losing,
it can ruin your day. But yeah, I mean I
take the day pretty seriously. I would say definitely, as
I've gotten older in my thirties, like I'm not doing

(57:46):
anything on Saturday night, I'm definitely not being hungover. I
was hungover once last year because it was my fortieth
birthday and it was miserable. It was miserable, and I
was like, I can't do this ever again. So I
just say Sunday is just I just approach it. I mean,
I try to get up at like seven or eight,
I go to the gym, try to be home, especially

(58:07):
you know Arizona's specific standard time, and then he goes
to Mountain time. I kind of like the Mountain time
because at eleven o'clock first kickoff. But I try to
be in my office, dressed, ready to go, cup of
coffee and have all my TVs on kickoff ten am,
and then dial till I do with Colin after the
second games, and then watch the Sunday night game while

(58:28):
I have dinner, come into my office in the fourth
quarter and do my own show after that. And obviously
Monday Night and Thursday Night football are built around watching
the games and doing the podcast as well. So yeah,
just like anyone, I mean, you just I take this
shit seriously. I don't want to lose this. Like I
also am not dumb enough to know, like I get

(58:48):
to do this for a job, so I'm able to
like pay the mortgage, right so it's it's I take
this stuff very very seriously. Now there's also like I
also talking for a living, so I can't can't just
be a stiff about it. But in terms of when
I watch it, yeah I can't. I just can't function

(59:08):
the end. You guys can relate to this depending on
how old you are. As you get older, the hangovers
they just get worse and worse. And I just can't
have that feeling of because I need my brain to work, right.
I mean, there are some jobs, like if I'm just
typing in stuff and I don't need my brain to work,
I technically could be hungover. But like if I got
to do multiple podcasts on a Sunday, I just can't.

(59:29):
I can't afford to be hungover because I can't do
that anymore. At forty years old. I was able to
pull it off a decade ago, no problem. Actually now
it's now it's honestly, I have a couple of drinks
now in the next days of work day I kind
of like just slows me down enough that I don't
like that feeling at all. So I've been in football
long enough to I mean, it's all I've ever done

(59:51):
in my professional life from college football to pro football
to then doing this for a living and going to
a lot of games in radio, and then obviously doing
podcasts on Sunday. Like, I'm not a big drinker on Sundays,
so I've never in my adult life drank on Sundays.
So yeah, no cocktails really, which, now that I say

(01:00:12):
it out loud, it kind of like sounds kind of sad.
So you just got to get your cocktails in on
other days. I guess Tito's soda maybe a little splash
of line the volume