March 21, 2025 • 43 mins
Doug Gottleib fills in for Colin for day 2 of the opening round of March Madness. Doug defends Kansas head coach Bill Self after a 1st round exit and why people have lost perspective on what greatness is in today's college basketball world. He gives Bronny James a lot of credit for his best game as pro but does point out 1 aspect of the game people are missing. He also talks to Drake head coach Ben McCollum about their upset win over 6-seed Missouri
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox
Sports Radio in noon to three Eastern nine am to
noon Pacific. Find your local station for the Herd at
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
What Up, Welcome In.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
This is the Herd wherever you may be and however
you may be, making us part of your day.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
I'm Doug Gottlieb in for Colin Cowherd on an absolutely
spectacular Friday.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
In Southern California.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Absolutely spectacular Friday in Southern California.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Welcome In.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Had a great time hosting with the boys being back
in town for a couple of days. Full disclosure, I
had a full day yesterday, full day yesterday.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I don't know if I shared this.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
With you, Greg and Ryan and Ryan part of the
production crew. So yesterday's show and then it's my work.
It's like our celebration week for my son's sixteenth birthday.
So we have a we normally do it when we
(01:23):
lived in southern California on the Jewish holidays because he
went to a small private school and we'd go to
Six Flags during you know, one of the high holidays
and ride all the roller coasters and just have a
great time. We did it yesterday instead. And then all
the while, right, you got your your cell phone's handy,
we're watching the March Madness games. Then the drive home,
(01:45):
we're watching Kansas and Arkansas, and then you watch all
the games at the end as well. Right, great thing
about West Coast time is they were all wrapped up
and you're you're good. You're like, okay, I saw Michigan,
hold off, U see San Diego and shut it down down,
go to bed, wake up this morning. Oh yeah, by
the way, we'll get to Brownie James' best offensive performance
(02:05):
as a pro in the NBA last night. Full day. Uh,
all right, full day. It's good day, good day. But
I was we were watching Arkansas and Kansas, and I
got I got a text from a friend who was like,
h bill self, bill self, this thing might have passed
(02:31):
him by.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
I was. I was.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
I don't know if I was laughing or crying on
the on the inside at that text. So you mean
to tell me that a coach who just four years
ago won a national championship and had a run of
what was it twelve consecutive Big twelve titles, the game
(03:00):
has passed him by after signing a new contract with
the Jayhawks over the offseason, or there's a different way
to look at it.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Look it was.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
It wasn't a well played game. It was an ugly game.
Self lost one of his best players to what appears
to be achilles injury. But I was watching Kansas play,
and I was identifying, you know, their players and what
was going right and what was going wrong, And like, look,
I make no mistake about it. I have a ton
(03:33):
to learn. Anybody can learn watching the best of the
best of the best. You know, they mix and match
with a two three zone. There's a little triangle in two.
It really confused Arkansas, and Arkansas just survived. Really was
because Kansas just turned the ball over so much. And
the things that when you games or lose you games
are you know, turnovers, basically defense, turnovers and rebounding. And
(04:00):
look at that game and and Kansas had sixteen turnovers,
had one less offensive rebound, and only shot outshot them
from the free throw line. But you know, Arkansas took
sixty five shots, they took fifty eight and they lose
the game by seven points and kJ Adams hurch his
(04:20):
Achilles ten. But then I was, I was, I was
watching their lineups and I was like, okay, Hunter Dickinson
played four years at Michigan. Zik Mayo just transferred in
from South Dakota State. Riland Griffin transferred in from Alabama.
AJ Storre who probably plays best game as at Jayhawk.
Last night he transfers in from Wisconsin. David quit had
(04:41):
transferred in from Northern Illinois, and it it didn't stun me,
but there was an aha moment right And obviously John
cal Perry's in his first year at Arkansas and his
his team will look wildly different next year as he
brought over several players, kept a couple from Arkansas last
year and then brought over players. You know John L.
(05:04):
Davis who was at Florida Atlantic. DJ Wagner who was
one of the players that came over along with Big
Z from from Kentucky. And I thought to myself, hold on,
this is a different sport than the one both of
these two men have coached in before.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I actually think.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Bill Salz like the perfect example. The guy's the best
of the best of the best. And you could say
the same thing honestly about John Caliperry. Different ways of
doing the same thing and same thing meaning being a
Hall of Fame coach. Both are in the Hall of Fame.
Both have won national titles, and Bill's won two.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Of them, two of them.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
And you look at how they went about their business, right,
John Caliperry, you know, evolved from what he was at
UMass than the NBA. And of course when he was
at Kentucky it was one and done's and he he
would go and hand pick the best five freshmen that
(06:04):
he could get, and more often than not it would
hit and whether they got to the Final four or
one year one national championship or were constantly competitive at
the very top of the sport, he became the signature
of the one and done era. Now, truth be told
that even when they won the national championship, one of
the strengths of that team with some of the veteran players,
(06:27):
but he picked off the top of the deck. Bill
self a little bit different at Kansas, right, they had
guys that you would call program guys, guys that improved
over time. Darnelle Robinson, for example, we'd start their career
at one thing and play four or five years and
evolved become really good, all big twelve caliber players. And
he would sprinkle in one or maybe two one and
(06:48):
Don's and then have a couple that were pros and
maybe take one transfer. And again, I don't think that
it's just COVID or just NIL, or just the transfer portal,
or just the fact that it's not just the transfer portals.
Spect you can transfer without repercussion, transfer and not set out.
But those three things have changed their business dramatically, and
(07:16):
it's hard to adjust.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Hard to adjust.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
My mom is let's just say she's in her late
seventies and we go out to dinner the other night
and she's had a problem with her phone. She hands
it to my son. She's like, I've had this problem
for a month and won't do something, and my son
presses two buttons. Problem solved because he grew up frankly
too much with a phone in his hand. My mom
(07:45):
still has a landline. How many of you have a landline?
And the point is that here's the things that have changed.
It started with the g League Ignite where players could
go straight to the G League for a year, get
(08:06):
paid and then go presumably to the NBA. Did it
all work out great? Did a bunch of guys go No,
but it was a couple of year. Then there was
Overtime Elite, which has since expanded. But did it all
was Did it take twenty thirty guys? No, but there
were two or three that mattered. A couple of them
(08:27):
went to Australia. One a year maybe would go to
Australia and for John Caliperi the pool and frankly four
Bill self. The pool of those one and done's on
a given year that can really impact a program was
between five and fifteen, and fifteen is probably too much. Really,
it's two or three and ten. And when you take
(08:52):
just a couple of them out there out of it,
and then you factor in that you know one would
go to Ote, woman go Overseas, one or two would
go to g the night. Now of a sudden that
pool started to shrink. Then you factor in that there
are players Kevin Durant, D'Angelo Russell are perfect examples of
guys that you know could have gone to Kentucky and
(09:13):
been a part of that one and done era, but
instead chose to have their own path, and you're fighting
Duke for these one and dones, and now of a sudden,
instead of getting the best five players in the country,
you might get one of the five best or one
of the and then you strike up a lean year
and it's hard. Then you go to COVID, and how
(09:39):
did COVID affect college basketball? By the way, Bill self
had a team that during the COVID could have won
a national championship. They were dominant. COVID canceled that tournament.
But if you go to COVID, that extended to where
now you're playing against guys that have a COVID year.
I don't know how many people who are listening to
the herd no this, but if you not only do
(10:02):
you have a COVID year, that given that's the super
seniors you're seeing play college basketball this year, fifth and
sixth year seniors sometimes seventh years. But now there's a
recent ruling that if you played junior college basketball or
Naia basketball during any of those last four years this
is after the COVID year, that year doesn't count and
(10:23):
you get another year. So I don't care how good
you are. With exception maybe of Cooper flag Like, he's
a unicorn, he's a generational player. Outside of that, all
of these other freshmen, you're eighteen nineteen and look, a
lot of freshmen are twenty years old. A lot of
(10:44):
seniors are twenty three, twenty four to twenty five years old. Right,
Steven Ashworth has played. They Creighton beat Louisville last night. Now, again,
part of it is he's a Mormon, he went on
a mission, But part of it is he also existed
during the COVID year. He's twenty five years old with
a wife and a kid playing college basketball. So if
(11:05):
you're somebody who's over always played freshman, what am I gonna?
This is a completely different landscape, a completely different sport.
Then post COVID, you have the transfer portal and no
and you can transfer without ramification.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
You don't have to sit out.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
So everything you've built in terms of your culture, and
that's what Kansas is always built on their culture. Come in,
you're part of KU's program. They've had transfers before, but
they've never played four transfers at once. And again, it
doesn't mean that transfers matter. I was a transfer and
I didn't sit out at my skull once set out
a junior college. But when you have a team full
(11:45):
of them and that's not how you've always coached, and
coaching a transfer that's played multiple years at another school,
that's here's the easiest analogy I give you. Go over
to a get ready to watch the games today, Go
over to a buddy's house, have him hand you the
remote and say how about it? And you're a spectrum
guy and he's got DirecTV and you're like, wait what,
(12:09):
He's got Sonos and Direct TV and he's got one
Universal remote and you would look at that thing and
it's not your same Universal remote you got. That's what
it's like to coach. Somebody who's played college basketball has
succeeded in college basketball at a different level, a different school.
David coit was at Northern Illinois and a star. Zeke
(12:33):
Mayo was a star at South Dakota State. But now
you have to completely change roles and you've played for
somebody else, and there's different verbigs in different ways of
doing things. And again you have a coach who's used
to coaching people a certain way and now he's coaching
you that same way, only you've been coached in programmed
by somebody else, and then you factor in nil into
(12:56):
the whole thing, where, if we're honest with ourselves, there
were schools that were compensating student athletes above that of
your normal grant and eate, room board, tuition and fees.
Now everybody can, So everybody can go and find players
(13:16):
and pay them to stay or pay them to transfer,
or you can go get an overseas player whose older
experience played professional basketball and can go and compete against
your college player. I don't know if you want to
use this as if this is an appropriate analogy, But
Monday I took my son to see Black Bag. Black
(13:38):
Bag is a new Stephen Suddenheide movie. And Black Bag,
by the way, if you like short movies, it's like
eighty five minutes long. It's great and it's really good.
We're sitting in the movie theater. It's like a private showing.
It's me and my son, nobody else, and I'm thinking
(14:01):
to myself, this is a it is a really good movie.
It was short, it was interesting, it's kind of a
spy flick. It's it's it's good. I would Rotten Tomatoes.
It was like in the ninety seven Percent and Rotten Tomatoes.
But who goes to the movies anymore. Here's a guy
who's made some of the best, most clever movies in
(14:26):
the last twenty five years, and I have no idea
what it made opening Box. Of course it opens in March,
which means they didn't think that it was going to do.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Do huge numbers.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
But I guarantee, uh, you've seen land Man more than
you've ever heard of Black Back, right, because the same
people that are making the same shows, in the same movies,
they're getting left behind because their business, their industry has
changed and whether they've it's changed because of COVID or
changed because of our viewing habits which were only sped
(14:58):
up by whatever it is. It's a different sport than
it ever used to be. I'm watching John Caliperi come
from behind and take down Kansas. Two Hall of Fame coaches,
too well invested programs and two guys who are coaching similarly,
if not the same, to how they've always coached. And
(15:19):
it has worked and it will work. But the business
of the sport has changed. Yes, Arkansas One, Yes, Kansas
mix it just I don't know what happened within the
chemistry of that squad that caused them to look so dysfunctional.
(15:42):
But the game has passed anybody by. It's just changed
so quickly that you have to level up or level over,
or otherwise you're leveling home. Doug Gottliebin for Colin. This
is the Hurt Fox Sports Radio iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
We talked Bronnie a little bit at the end of
the show yesterday. Did you see what he did last night?
We'll discuss next in the Herd.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
in noon Eastern non am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio
FS one and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Doug Allibin for Colin. This is the Herd Fox Sports
Radio I Heart Ready up. Grant McCastle and said to
join us upcoming. He's the head coach of Texas Tech.
The Raiders only four point lead at halftime, but then
they end up winning by ten against UNC Wilmington.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
We'll talk with.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Texas Tech's second second year head coach, Grant McCaslin, who
form a Baylor assistant from a head coach at North Texas.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
We'll get we'll get Grant in here.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
In a moment in the meantime, Uh, let's give him
like a little credit here to Bronnie James had finally
had a an NBA game where you're like, all right,
that that tape looks like an NBA player. Now, two
people who are like, all.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Godly, your face and your face Browny awesome, right.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Seventeen points, seven to ten from the field, five assists,
three rebounds, two of four from three. Yeah, he had
four turnovers. But you know, Brownie was awesome last night,
playing a career high twenty nine minutes. Uh yeah, I
(17:26):
mean he shot the ball well. He looked for the
first time like an NBA player, and it's like the
number one thing you need in life, the number one
thing you need in sports is confidence and his ability
to maintain and even grow his confidence through Look, he
has not had not shot the ball well at all
until recently in the G League, Right, percentages were thirties
(17:49):
and twenties from field in three now it's forties and thirties,
and obviously in limited minutes, had shot the ball very
poorly with the Lakers and just look lost, right, look lost,
looked overwhelmed, looked like I don't think he's got it right.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
It's a fair assessment. Last night I had some shots.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
It's also fair if we're going to be the voice
of actually reasonable, and I understand that. I operate in
a world of sports radio and sports television where you
have to have unreasonable, polar opposite takes. He can either
be awesome or can't play, and there's nothing in between.
You're either Lebron or you're Jordan. You can't go and
they're different. I'd prefer Jordan, but I respect that because
(18:31):
you can and you can never throw like you know, I, I.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Mean, it's prime.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
I think I might take Magic or Bird, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Or you know, some would say Kobe.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I wouldn't, but some would say Kobe or Tim Duncan
or you know, you have all these others that we
have seen play. We're not allowed to do that. Well,
I get to host The Herd and I get my
own show, the Doug Gotlib Show on Fox Sports Radio.
So I'm going to do that because the reality is
he was a minus thirty six.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
They did get smoke.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
They threw out essentially a G League roster, and the
only other you know Laker to do anything was Dalton
Connect who you know with the Lakers is now based
upon their roster now is probably out of the rotation
or or barely hanging on the rotation, as he's a
rookie who they want to develop. Here's JJ Reddick talking
(19:20):
about Brownie after the game.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
You know, we've obviously.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
Monitored him in the G and I feel like he's,
you know, in those sort of endgame situations when he's
got a chance to play with us, he's been he's
been really good. So not surprised by tonight. And I
think his his confidence is growing because you mentioned the
(19:44):
word comfort. That's that's certainly there for him. And I
think the next step is is just you know, becoming
uh like a like an elite conditioned athlete, because when
he does that with with his physical tools and just
(20:07):
his like burst and his handle, and you know, we
think he's going to be an above average to really
good NBA shooter.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Okay, there's there's actually a lot to kind of digest there. Okay,
can I tell you what I heard in the coach's
ear and trying to read now some of it is
he hadn't I actually don't buy the he's been really
good with us. He is not second lowest field goal
percentage in the NBA. You know, you're talking about four minutes,
(20:36):
two minutes. He played sixteen minutes at Denver in a blowout,
you know, barely played and hasn't looked the part. I
don't think anybody would agree with that. And it's hard
to do anything in four minutes or two minutes anyway. Again,
if we're being fair, when he said he needs to
be an elite conditioned athlete, that was a little bit
(20:56):
of a I don't want to say shot, but that
wasn't a positive note from your head coach. That wasn't
a positive note from your head coach if you said
he needs to be an elite because remember, it's all
about wording. JJ knows he has to knows he has
(21:19):
to be measured in his wording. And because it's pretty obvious.
I don't know, guys, if we've talked about this. I
have a friend who's worked for President Trump in the
first administration. And if you notice how people who work
for him or want to work with him, they either
bow at the altar or he tries to crucify them. Right,
(21:42):
And the expression they had in the White House, it's
a real thing, is you're either you're either at the
table or you're on the menu. And I love that
you're either at the table or you're on the menu.
And honestly, that's how Lebron treats people. You're either at
the table, you're on the menu. Either are all in
(22:03):
Lebron's the greatest and Bronni's gonna be awesome, or you're
on the menu. And he may tweet at you, he
may call you out or call you over in the
middle in the middle of a competitive basketball game. So
JJ has to be measured with everything he says. Because
(22:23):
Lebron's got rabbit ears, especially about his kid, we all
kind of do. And when he says he needs to
be an elite condition athlete that here's the translation, right,
if you do the coaching translation, Bronni's not in shape.
Bronnie's not in shape. So the the issue with the
(22:49):
idea that he'll become an above average to an elite
shooter is you can't show me anywhere so far in
his life that that has been the case. A Yet,
my issue with Brownie James in terms of the evaluation
of Bronny James has been every NBA player that has
(23:12):
been or every future NBA player I've seen, outside of
a couple that are truly late bloomers, right, there are
some guys that are really late, like grew late high school,
grew in college or whatever. But if you say, hey,
here's a McDonald's all American, you can pick apart. You know,
ten high school games in their senior year where they
were the best player in the court by a mile.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
You're like, well, that's a pro. You know, that's a pro.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
I can't mention the school by name, but there's a
school in Wisconsin that I believe is the number one
rank school and they play the state playoffs for tonight
in Madison, and I went to see them play against
another school they're both in Milwaukee, and there's a off
(24:00):
more who's six foot nine, and you're like, that's a problem.
And so my issue with Bronnie was like, there's never
been a moment where he's been an elite, elite shooter,
So why would we think he why we put that
expectation that he'll be in above average, too great shooter
in the NBA when that's never happened before.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
The part I do.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Agree with is he's getting more comfortable, he's getting confident,
and you're not gonna achieve anything if you're not confident.
Last night was the first night Ronnie James looked like
an NBA player. His confidence is still there. That's something
outstanding considering how Oft discussed his game is despite the
fact he plays like two minutes a game for Lakers.
But let's not get a twisted. He was a minus
(24:41):
thirty six. It was a blowout and his own coach
said he's got to get.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Into better shape.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
and noon Eastern not a m. Pacific.
Speaker 7 (24:50):
Hey, Steve Covino and I'm Rich David and together we're
Covino and Rich on Fox Sports Radio. You could catch
us weekdays from five to seven pm Eastern two to
four Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and of course the
iHeartRadio app. Why should you listen to Covino and Rich.
We talk about everything life, sports, relationships, what's.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Going on in the world.
Speaker 7 (25:09):
We have a lot of fun talking about the stories
behind the stories in the world of sports and pop culture,
stories that well, other shows don't seem to have the
time to discuss. And the fact that we've been friends
for the last twenty years and still work together. I
mean that says something right, So check us out. We
like to get you involved too, take your phone calls,
chop it up. As they say, I'd say, the most
interactive show on Fox Sports Radio, maybe the most interactive
(25:31):
show on planetar. Be sure to check out Covino and
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And if you miss any of the live show, just
search Covino and Rich wherever you get your podcasts, and
of course on social media that's Covino and Rich.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
What up.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Welcome in this and the Herd wherever you may be
and however you may be making this part of your day.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Thanks so much. I'm Doug.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Got look in for Colin Cowherd. It's the second eighty
of the NCAA Tournament. It may be decision day for
Aaron Rodgers. We're getting closer and closer to the rest
of Major League Baseball season getting underway, and hopefully where
you are, it's as nice as the weather where I
am because spring has arrived, and wow, is it is
(26:19):
it nice?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
I know he had that.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Midweek well mini blizzard running through the northern Midwest. Outside
of that, some some nice weather along the way. Welcome
in and thanks so much for joining me. Colin is
back on Monday. There are some similarities to Aaron Rodgers,
as you just heard from Dan Byer, who works with
me on my show, The Doug Gottlieb Show, which broadcast
(26:44):
daily three to five Eastern CALK to Pacific.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Fox Sports Radio. iHeart ready WEP.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Dan reported that or said, the report is out that
Aaron Rodgers is visiting the Pittsburgh Steelers facility. And it's
kind of interesting. Right in college basketball, the portal opens
on Monday, and what and I don't know how many
of you know this, but now there are lots of
(27:09):
players that thought going into the season like this is it,
this is my last year.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I'm done.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
I mean there are six year seniors, seventh year seniors, whatever,
like I'm done. And then there was a ruling with
the quarterback of Vanderbilt who went to junior college and
I believe one of the years in junior college they
didn't have a season because of COVID whatever. Anyway, he
got an extra year. So now there's a blanket ruling
(27:36):
where if you played junior college or any NAIA basketball,
you get an extra year. So there are lots of
guys who like thought they were done. They're like, oh,
you know what, I might go do this again, and
they'll like Aaron Rodgers, go and have a visit and
and maybe you know, they won't sign with Pittsburgh Steelers,
(27:58):
but they'll sign with your team. I bring it up
because our next guest is the head coach of the
Drake Bulldogs.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
He won four.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
National championships at the Division two level, and I think
in the summer his one of his star shooters, Mitch Muscari,
was going into the private sector, like he was gonna
go work for a living. And well, let's just let
coach McCullum tell the story. Drake Bulldogs win the Missouri
(28:26):
Valley regular season, win their conference tournament championship. They're thirty
one to three. Then they take down Missouri yesterday. Now
they get ready to take on Texas Tech Grant McCaslin,
who ironically told us just last hour they scrimmaged Drake
in the secret scrimmage earlier this year, and now they
play each other in the second round the NCAA Tournament,
and coach McCullum joins us on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Ben, how are you?
Speaker 5 (28:49):
I'm great. How about yourself, Doug.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
I'm not as good as you, not with your team. Okay,
So help tell this story here, right, You get the
Drake job, and Misscari was already working or was going
to go work.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
What happened?
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Yeah, he was gonna go work, you know. I got
the Drake job, and and uh, I obviously had three
coming with and I thought Mitch was done and he
he had a really good financial job in Chicago. He
never ended up starting it though, but he was going
to start it, you know, within the next couple of
months of graduation from from Northwest Missouri State. And the
(29:27):
last day he put his name in the portal, and
I think he just did it, you know, just kind
of making sure that, you know, if he wanted to
he could he could play again. And I was like,
I wonder what he was thinking. So I called him,
I'm like, well, do you want to play? He's like,
I don't know. I was just kind of thinking about it.
I said, well, if you want to do that, let's
just do it here. And he said okay, And so
(29:47):
he thought about it for a while and then eventually
just you know, decided hey, this is you know, this
is something that I want to do. It was a
tough It was a tough decision for him because as
I couldn't give him a lot of advice because I
knew I had something to gain from it. And so
you know, when kids trust you with advice and you
(30:09):
have something to gain in the process, you know, you
just can't really, you know, say you should do this,
but he should do it, And obviously he ended up
doing it, which has been great.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
What what's it like to take this group and so
many of them you mentioned you had three and now
four coming with from the Division two level. What's it
like to go through this where everybody falls back on
the story, Hey, their division two guys, when you take
them down, going back to the preseason, when you win
in Charleston, you beat k State, you beat Vandy, what
(30:41):
what is what is that like for you? When when
you have a group of guys that you've been with
at the Division two level to play so well at this.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
Level, you know, it's been it's been a blast. You know.
I think I think the thing for for me in particular,
when when you take this job, it's it is a
lonely feeling when you take over a job at this
level and you don't have a lot of players, like,
it's very lonely. And when you're able to take three
(31:13):
or four year guys, four of your guys with you
and show up day one and at least you know
you've got guys that are, you know, essentially in your foxhole,
right and guys that are going to fight for what
the program means and fight for your culture and fight
for the effort and that sort of thing. And so
it was a big deal to get them. Obviously, it
(31:35):
was a big deal to get everybody though, and a
lot of those guys came on just blind faith, you know,
where it's like it didn't have to come to Drake
for an unproven at Division one, Division two guy, and
they did. And so obviously it became, you know, everybody together,
everybody connected, and it was fun.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Starts.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
You know, we when we prepare for you, guys who
were like, holy cal, this is the best guy we've
seen all year, and grant, we're the Rizon League. But
we played Oklham State, we played Ohio State, we played Providence,
and I mean, he's a special player. When did you
first see uh starts play in high school.
Speaker 5 (32:21):
When he was a junior. When he was a junior,
he made the state championship, I believe, and lost in
the state title game, and no one really was recruiting
him at the Division IE level and I didn't understand why.
So then we chose to recruit him at the Division
two level. And I thought at that point, I'm like,
(32:44):
this kid is no brainer mid major. You know, we're
going to steal another one. You know. Obviously now he's
probably you know, fringe NBA, and I think eventually he's
probably going to be an NBA player, you know, when
it's all said and done. He just had such a
good demeanor. He's an elite pass er. He's an unselfish person.
He's an unselfish player, you know, and he listens and
(33:08):
wants to be good. He just he just gets it.
And so it certainly helps that he's on our team.
And you know, it also helps that we coached him
for two years, you know, I coached him for two
seasons prior, and so that that really benefited us as well.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
No, no doubt, was there any special hitch in his
gidea up because it was Missouri.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
No, not not really. I think Kansas State it was.
I think it was just the NCAA tournament was probably
he was excited about because you know, to be quite honest,
it's like, you know, I had another guard, Trevor Hudgens
for a while, well you know, and everybody's like, well,
why didn't KSE State offer? Why don't kid? Because because
he wasn't good enough for case State right away? Right,
(33:49):
That's why they didn't.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
Right if you say, if you saw him when he
was sixteen, you would have said he's not not good enough.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
You know, I had that.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
I don't know that.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
I don't like, I don't know if I can, I can't. Obviously,
guys names whatever. I don't know inportal, not in portal.
But yeah, we played against a guy this year who
lit us up at the Division two level and they were,
you know, after the game, like, well why didn't you
offer him? Like well, I wasn't here and when I
got here, he wasn't in the portals.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Like, I don't know what you like?
Speaker 4 (34:15):
We do ask things of people, which are it which
are unfair? Do you does? I think everyone knows that
if you can coach at the division two level, you
can coach Division one level. Bruce Pearl's proved that, you've
proved that others have as well. Does this change in
your mind the perception of recruiting Division two players to
transferrupt the Division one level.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
No, it probably does, but that's because people don't think
for themselves times, you know, I mean it's like, oh,
D two players are great, Let's everybody go get twenty
five D two players, because there's a recency bias already
to it, and so it's it. I don't know, like
I think too often, you know, in college coaching and
(34:58):
even hiring coaches and stuff like that, there becomes a
biased you know, all of a sudden because a D
two guy has success, every D two guy can have success,
and that's just not that's just not the case. Or
you know, if you you know, on any I guy
can be just good, a JUCO guy can be just
as good. And same concept for players, like, just because
some Division two guys have success doesn't necessarily mean that
(35:19):
every D two guy is going to have success, but
it does mean that you can find good players anywhere.
And you just kind of have to trust your own
eye on some of those things. And and and in
today's society, it's it's a lot more difficult to trust
your own eye, just because social media and all those
different things that are like, you know, even when we
took this job, and you know, there's probably fifty to
(35:42):
fifty split where you know, fifty percent of fans would
be like and I can't wait to watch these guys,
think they'd be great, and then there's another fifty percent
that was like, I can't believe they're taking d two
guys and they're going to be awful, And so you
just can't listen to that noise. You just got to
trust yourself. And that's that's what we did. And you know,
(36:04):
we got a little lucky to you know, where just
those guys showed up and competed and is the heck
of Irun and still continues to be that.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Ben McCollum, head coach, Drake. The Bulldogs are thirty one
and three and they take on Texas Tech the Red Raiders,
who they faced in a secret scrimmage. How much can
you take from the secret scrimmage in getting ready for
a second an NCAA tournament.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
Game, Man, I don't know, I don't know, because they're
I mean they're just so well coached, you know, I
just think they're you know, they've got obviously hired one
of my others. He's got he's got Grant, who's one
of my close friends. Who's got Linda who I talked
to about every day. He's got Luke who actually played
(36:48):
for me, Luke Barnwell, the chokey Moore, Kob who's who's
the ac who's so it's like their whole staff is
really close to me. And so I'm not sure how
much you can take from that. You know, Uh, I
don't think either of us really totally prepared for it,
if that makes sense, meaning you know, those scrimmages, it's
(37:09):
better that. I think a lot of people try to
win those scrimmages. Obviously you always want to win everything
you do, but more importantly, you want to you want
to see what works, see what lineups work. And so
I'm not sure how much you can actually take from
that scrimmage.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
Yes, I wish you would have told me that I
tried to win my scrimmage. And then I was like
at the end of us, like, why did I try
to win my scrimmage? Well, I was trying to show,
you know, a group of young guys, build them confidence
in what we're doing, and have one more point in
an opponent. But again, these are just learning lessons as
you only learned by but by doing. Ben McCullum joining us,
who is the Drake Drake head coach. Okay, so you
(37:46):
went from turning down lots of jobs that didn't fit.
Why did Drake fit?
Speaker 5 (37:55):
A couple of reasons. One, I really liked the athletic director,
Brian Hard. I thought he had a good vision for
the program. Too. It was, you know, close to home
probably you know, a Midwest guyde doesn't mean I, you know,
would never live in any other place in the country.
But you know, initially, just that first jump, I wanted
to make sure that it was also beneficial for my
(38:19):
family to get closer to family. And then you know,
it was just the right time, you know, I started
to notice that I started to notice that I was
I wasn't choosing to come back to Northwest, I was
choosing to not take jobs. And I think when you
start to trend that direction, I think that probably gives
(38:41):
you the indication that's probably time to come out of
your comfort zone a little bit. And and you know,
just see what you could do, and and then you
know they were super patient in the process, Drake was.
You know, I think that a lot of these schools
when they hire, which I understand, you know, they they
they offer you the job. The next day, you got
to decide. And it's not really the nature of me.
(39:06):
And so it's my greatest strength and greatest weakness is
my patience. But you know, sometimes it's just is what
it is. And this one just worked out perfect, and
you know, I got put in a good position and
very thankful for it.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
So with that though, now comes ad in speculation there's
other jobs available. How do you handle that?
Speaker 5 (39:25):
Right?
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Will Wade is like, Hey, I'm taking a state like
that's that's happening, and people are like, whoa waits, that's weird.
How are you handling the now speculation about what could be.
Speaker 5 (39:36):
Next for you? Yeah, you know, the same way I've
done it for years. I really try not to. My
personality doesn't allow me to have a divided heart, if
that makes sense, And so I think some people can
can multitask. And do you know what Will Wade is
take a job and still focus on his team and
still focus on everything else. Associated with it. I'm just
(39:59):
different in a personality. It doesn't make me right, doesn't
make him wrong. It's just how I do things. And
so my attention and my kids know that my attention
is on them and making sure that you know, we're
at our best and that I fight for what they are.
And again, has it hurt me in the past, It
(40:21):
absolutely has, but it's helped me create a level of
loyalty with the people surrounding the program because it's like
I know where his heart is at, like I know
where it's at, you know, regardless of you know, all
these things and speculation and stuff like that, is you know,
I'm making sure that I fight for Drake and fight
(40:43):
for these kids and fight for these players. And you know,
it's what I've done for seven eight years and approved
it and I'll continue to do it the same way.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
All right.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
Most important question is when did you start the white
shirt solid tie?
Speaker 5 (40:57):
Look A long time ago. I probably, gosh, I bet
twenty sixteen, probably somewhere in that range, because I know
I had at twenty seventeen because that was our first
national championship. Probably twenty sixteen, maybe even earlier. You know,
I used to wear just different colored ties, different colored shirts,
(41:19):
you know, different everything. And then I was like, man,
I don't even want to make a decision today because
we got to make ten thousand decisions in the game.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yea.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
And so so I was just you know, I was
always was fascinated by Billy Donovan and they just wore
a white shirt. So I just wore a white shirt and.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
You don't, okay.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
So then the follow then the follow up is is
that the same blue tie or are there multiple blue
ties that that that look alike?
Speaker 5 (41:45):
It is the same blue tie, always the same blue tie. Yep,
it says the same whole year.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
How do you not get a spot?
Speaker 4 (41:53):
How do you not get anything on it?
Speaker 3 (41:54):
And I get coffee on it?
Speaker 5 (41:55):
Something else? Yeah, it's it's it's used now it's yes,
Well man, that's the beauty of it. What are you
going to go see this? What a bunch of scrappers?
Now that's what we do. So it's not there's there's.
Speaker 4 (42:08):
No there's no backup tie. There's there's no backup tie.
Speaker 5 (42:11):
No no, heck, no no backup players either. No. We
just the ties is who we are as a team. Man,
We're not perfect, and we're you know sometimes we're bruised
and battered, but we're always fighting, so that's pretty good.
I just made that up, so but no, it's it's
the same time all the time.
Speaker 4 (42:33):
Well, listen, I appreciate that when I got we got
we had a check for my coaching clinic that I
was able to watch over on the other sideline. I
had no doubt of what would happen yesterday. I'm really
interested in what happens tomorrow. We wish you the best
of luck and we'll talk to Thanks so much for
joining us.
Speaker 5 (42:48):
Yes, thanks for having me on all right.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Appreciate its Bet Mccollumy's the head coach of the Drake Bulldogs.
He's won four national titles at the Division two level.
In his first year at Division one, they are thirty
one and three on the year.
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox
Sports Radio in noon to three Eastern nine am to
noon Pacific. Find your local station for the Herd at
Fox Sports Radio dot com, or stream us live every
day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio
or FSR.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
What Up, Welcome In.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
This is the Herd wherever you may be and however
you may be, making us part of your day.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
I'm Doug Gottlieb in for Colin Cowherd on an absolutely
spectacular Friday.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
In Southern California.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Absolutely spectacular Friday in Southern California.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Welcome In.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Had a great time hosting with the boys being back
in town for a couple of days. Full disclosure, I
had a full day yesterday, full day yesterday.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I don't know if I shared this.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
With you, Greg and Ryan and Ryan part of the
production crew. So yesterday's show and then it's my work.
It's like our celebration week for my son's sixteenth birthday.
So we have a we normally do it when we
(01:23):
lived in southern California on the Jewish holidays because he
went to a small private school and we'd go to
Six Flags during you know, one of the high holidays
and ride all the roller coasters and just have a
great time. We did it yesterday instead. And then all
the while, right, you got your your cell phone's handy,
we're watching the March Madness games. Then the drive home,
(01:45):
we're watching Kansas and Arkansas, and then you watch all
the games at the end as well. Right, great thing
about West Coast time is they were all wrapped up
and you're you're good. You're like, okay, I saw Michigan,
hold off, U see San Diego and shut it down down,
go to bed, wake up this morning. Oh yeah, by
the way, we'll get to Brownie James' best offensive performance
(02:05):
as a pro in the NBA last night. Full day. Uh,
all right, full day. It's good day, good day. But
I was we were watching Arkansas and Kansas, and I
got I got a text from a friend who was like,
h bill self, bill self, this thing might have passed
(02:31):
him by.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
I was. I was.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
I don't know if I was laughing or crying on
the on the inside at that text. So you mean
to tell me that a coach who just four years
ago won a national championship and had a run of
what was it twelve consecutive Big twelve titles, the game
(03:00):
has passed him by after signing a new contract with
the Jayhawks over the offseason, or there's a different way
to look at it.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Look it was.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
It wasn't a well played game. It was an ugly game.
Self lost one of his best players to what appears
to be achilles injury. But I was watching Kansas play,
and I was identifying, you know, their players and what
was going right and what was going wrong, And like, look,
I make no mistake about it. I have a ton
(03:33):
to learn. Anybody can learn watching the best of the
best of the best. You know, they mix and match
with a two three zone. There's a little triangle in two.
It really confused Arkansas, and Arkansas just survived. Really was
because Kansas just turned the ball over so much. And
the things that when you games or lose you games
are you know, turnovers, basically defense, turnovers and rebounding. And
(04:00):
look at that game and and Kansas had sixteen turnovers,
had one less offensive rebound, and only shot outshot them
from the free throw line. But you know, Arkansas took
sixty five shots, they took fifty eight and they lose
the game by seven points and kJ Adams hurch his
(04:20):
Achilles ten. But then I was, I was, I was
watching their lineups and I was like, okay, Hunter Dickinson
played four years at Michigan. Zik Mayo just transferred in
from South Dakota State. Riland Griffin transferred in from Alabama.
AJ Storre who probably plays best game as at Jayhawk.
Last night he transfers in from Wisconsin. David quit had
(04:41):
transferred in from Northern Illinois, and it it didn't stun me,
but there was an aha moment right And obviously John
cal Perry's in his first year at Arkansas and his
his team will look wildly different next year as he
brought over several players, kept a couple from Arkansas last
year and then brought over players. You know John L.
(05:04):
Davis who was at Florida Atlantic. DJ Wagner who was
one of the players that came over along with Big
Z from from Kentucky. And I thought to myself, hold on,
this is a different sport than the one both of
these two men have coached in before.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
I actually think.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Bill Salz like the perfect example. The guy's the best
of the best of the best. And you could say
the same thing honestly about John Caliperry. Different ways of
doing the same thing and same thing meaning being a
Hall of Fame coach. Both are in the Hall of Fame.
Both have won national titles, and Bill's won two.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Of them, two of them.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
And you look at how they went about their business, right,
John Caliperry, you know, evolved from what he was at
UMass than the NBA. And of course when he was
at Kentucky it was one and done's and he he
would go and hand pick the best five freshmen that
(06:04):
he could get, and more often than not it would
hit and whether they got to the Final four or
one year one national championship or were constantly competitive at
the very top of the sport, he became the signature
of the one and done era. Now, truth be told
that even when they won the national championship, one of
the strengths of that team with some of the veteran players,
(06:27):
but he picked off the top of the deck. Bill
self a little bit different at Kansas, right, they had
guys that you would call program guys, guys that improved
over time. Darnelle Robinson, for example, we'd start their career
at one thing and play four or five years and
evolved become really good, all big twelve caliber players. And
he would sprinkle in one or maybe two one and
(06:48):
Don's and then have a couple that were pros and
maybe take one transfer. And again, I don't think that
it's just COVID or just NIL, or just the transfer portal,
or just the fact that it's not just the transfer portals.
Spect you can transfer without repercussion, transfer and not set out.
But those three things have changed their business dramatically, and
(07:16):
it's hard to adjust.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Hard to adjust.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
My mom is let's just say she's in her late
seventies and we go out to dinner the other night
and she's had a problem with her phone. She hands
it to my son. She's like, I've had this problem
for a month and won't do something, and my son
presses two buttons. Problem solved because he grew up frankly
too much with a phone in his hand. My mom
(07:45):
still has a landline. How many of you have a landline?
And the point is that here's the things that have changed.
It started with the g League Ignite where players could
go straight to the G League for a year, get
(08:06):
paid and then go presumably to the NBA. Did it
all work out great? Did a bunch of guys go No,
but it was a couple of year. Then there was
Overtime Elite, which has since expanded. But did it all
was Did it take twenty thirty guys? No, but there
were two or three that mattered. A couple of them
(08:27):
went to Australia. One a year maybe would go to
Australia and for John Caliperi the pool and frankly four
Bill self. The pool of those one and done's on
a given year that can really impact a program was
between five and fifteen, and fifteen is probably too much. Really,
it's two or three and ten. And when you take
(08:52):
just a couple of them out there out of it,
and then you factor in that you know one would
go to Ote, woman go Overseas, one or two would
go to g the night. Now of a sudden that
pool started to shrink. Then you factor in that there
are players Kevin Durant, D'Angelo Russell are perfect examples of
guys that you know could have gone to Kentucky and
(09:13):
been a part of that one and done era, but
instead chose to have their own path, and you're fighting
Duke for these one and dones, and now of a sudden,
instead of getting the best five players in the country,
you might get one of the five best or one
of the and then you strike up a lean year
and it's hard. Then you go to COVID, and how
(09:39):
did COVID affect college basketball? By the way, Bill self
had a team that during the COVID could have won
a national championship. They were dominant. COVID canceled that tournament.
But if you go to COVID, that extended to where
now you're playing against guys that have a COVID year.
I don't know how many people who are listening to
the herd no this, but if you not only do
(10:02):
you have a COVID year, that given that's the super
seniors you're seeing play college basketball this year, fifth and
sixth year seniors sometimes seventh years. But now there's a
recent ruling that if you played junior college basketball or
Naia basketball during any of those last four years this
is after the COVID year, that year doesn't count and
(10:23):
you get another year. So I don't care how good
you are. With exception maybe of Cooper flag Like, he's
a unicorn, he's a generational player. Outside of that, all
of these other freshmen, you're eighteen nineteen and look, a
lot of freshmen are twenty years old. A lot of
(10:44):
seniors are twenty three, twenty four to twenty five years old. Right,
Steven Ashworth has played. They Creighton beat Louisville last night. Now, again,
part of it is he's a Mormon, he went on
a mission, But part of it is he also existed
during the COVID year. He's twenty five years old with
a wife and a kid playing college basketball. So if
(11:05):
you're somebody who's over always played freshman, what am I gonna?
This is a completely different landscape, a completely different sport.
Then post COVID, you have the transfer portal and no
and you can transfer without ramification.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
You don't have to sit out.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
So everything you've built in terms of your culture, and
that's what Kansas is always built on their culture. Come in,
you're part of KU's program. They've had transfers before, but
they've never played four transfers at once. And again, it
doesn't mean that transfers matter. I was a transfer and
I didn't sit out at my skull once set out
a junior college. But when you have a team full
(11:45):
of them and that's not how you've always coached, and
coaching a transfer that's played multiple years at another school,
that's here's the easiest analogy I give you. Go over
to a get ready to watch the games today, Go
over to a buddy's house, have him hand you the
remote and say how about it? And you're a spectrum
guy and he's got DirecTV and you're like, wait what,
(12:09):
He's got Sonos and Direct TV and he's got one
Universal remote and you would look at that thing and
it's not your same Universal remote you got. That's what
it's like to coach. Somebody who's played college basketball has
succeeded in college basketball at a different level, a different school.
David coit was at Northern Illinois and a star. Zeke
(12:33):
Mayo was a star at South Dakota State. But now
you have to completely change roles and you've played for
somebody else, and there's different verbigs in different ways of
doing things. And again you have a coach who's used
to coaching people a certain way and now he's coaching
you that same way, only you've been coached in programmed
by somebody else, and then you factor in nil into
(12:56):
the whole thing, where, if we're honest with ourselves, there
were schools that were compensating student athletes above that of
your normal grant and eate, room board, tuition and fees.
Now everybody can, So everybody can go and find players
(13:16):
and pay them to stay or pay them to transfer,
or you can go get an overseas player whose older
experience played professional basketball and can go and compete against
your college player. I don't know if you want to
use this as if this is an appropriate analogy, But
Monday I took my son to see Black Bag. Black
(13:38):
Bag is a new Stephen Suddenheide movie. And Black Bag,
by the way, if you like short movies, it's like
eighty five minutes long. It's great and it's really good.
We're sitting in the movie theater. It's like a private showing.
It's me and my son, nobody else, and I'm thinking
(14:01):
to myself, this is a it is a really good movie.
It was short, it was interesting, it's kind of a
spy flick. It's it's it's good. I would Rotten Tomatoes.
It was like in the ninety seven Percent and Rotten Tomatoes.
But who goes to the movies anymore. Here's a guy
who's made some of the best, most clever movies in
(14:26):
the last twenty five years, and I have no idea
what it made opening Box. Of course it opens in March,
which means they didn't think that it was going to do.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Do huge numbers.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
But I guarantee, uh, you've seen land Man more than
you've ever heard of Black Back, right, because the same
people that are making the same shows, in the same movies,
they're getting left behind because their business, their industry has
changed and whether they've it's changed because of COVID or
changed because of our viewing habits which were only sped
(14:58):
up by whatever it is. It's a different sport than
it ever used to be. I'm watching John Caliperi come
from behind and take down Kansas. Two Hall of Fame coaches,
too well invested programs and two guys who are coaching similarly,
if not the same, to how they've always coached. And
(15:19):
it has worked and it will work. But the business
of the sport has changed. Yes, Arkansas One, Yes, Kansas
mix it just I don't know what happened within the
chemistry of that squad that caused them to look so dysfunctional.
(15:42):
But the game has passed anybody by. It's just changed
so quickly that you have to level up or level over,
or otherwise you're leveling home. Doug Gottliebin for Colin. This
is the Hurt Fox Sports Radio iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
We talked Bronnie a little bit at the end of
the show yesterday. Did you see what he did last night?
We'll discuss next in the Herd.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
in noon Eastern non am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio
FS one and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Doug Allibin for Colin. This is the Herd Fox Sports
Radio I Heart Ready up. Grant McCastle and said to
join us upcoming. He's the head coach of Texas Tech.
The Raiders only four point lead at halftime, but then
they end up winning by ten against UNC Wilmington.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
We'll talk with.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Texas Tech's second second year head coach, Grant McCaslin, who
form a Baylor assistant from a head coach at North Texas.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
We'll get we'll get Grant in here.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
In a moment in the meantime, Uh, let's give him
like a little credit here to Bronnie James had finally
had a an NBA game where you're like, all right,
that that tape looks like an NBA player. Now, two
people who are like, all.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Godly, your face and your face Browny awesome, right.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Seventeen points, seven to ten from the field, five assists,
three rebounds, two of four from three. Yeah, he had
four turnovers. But you know, Brownie was awesome last night,
playing a career high twenty nine minutes. Uh yeah, I
(17:26):
mean he shot the ball well. He looked for the
first time like an NBA player, and it's like the
number one thing you need in life, the number one
thing you need in sports is confidence and his ability
to maintain and even grow his confidence through Look, he
has not had not shot the ball well at all
until recently in the G League, Right, percentages were thirties
(17:49):
and twenties from field in three now it's forties and thirties,
and obviously in limited minutes, had shot the ball very
poorly with the Lakers and just look lost, right, look lost,
looked overwhelmed, looked like I don't think he's got it right.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
It's a fair assessment. Last night I had some shots.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
It's also fair if we're going to be the voice
of actually reasonable, and I understand that. I operate in
a world of sports radio and sports television where you
have to have unreasonable, polar opposite takes. He can either
be awesome or can't play, and there's nothing in between.
You're either Lebron or you're Jordan. You can't go and
they're different. I'd prefer Jordan, but I respect that because
(18:31):
you can and you can never throw like you know, I, I.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Mean, it's prime.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
I think I might take Magic or Bird, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Or you know, some would say Kobe.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I wouldn't, but some would say Kobe or Tim Duncan
or you know, you have all these others that we
have seen play. We're not allowed to do that. Well,
I get to host The Herd and I get my
own show, the Doug Gotlib Show on Fox Sports Radio.
So I'm going to do that because the reality is
he was a minus thirty six.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
They did get smoke.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
They threw out essentially a G League roster, and the
only other you know Laker to do anything was Dalton
Connect who you know with the Lakers is now based
upon their roster now is probably out of the rotation
or or barely hanging on the rotation, as he's a
rookie who they want to develop. Here's JJ Reddick talking
(19:20):
about Brownie after the game.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
You know, we've obviously.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
Monitored him in the G and I feel like he's,
you know, in those sort of endgame situations when he's
got a chance to play with us, he's been he's
been really good. So not surprised by tonight. And I
think his his confidence is growing because you mentioned the
(19:44):
word comfort. That's that's certainly there for him. And I
think the next step is is just you know, becoming
uh like a like an elite conditioned athlete, because when
he does that with with his physical tools and just
(20:07):
his like burst and his handle, and you know, we
think he's going to be an above average to really
good NBA shooter.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Okay, there's there's actually a lot to kind of digest there. Okay,
can I tell you what I heard in the coach's
ear and trying to read now some of it is
he hadn't I actually don't buy the he's been really
good with us. He is not second lowest field goal
percentage in the NBA. You know, you're talking about four minutes,
(20:36):
two minutes. He played sixteen minutes at Denver in a blowout,
you know, barely played and hasn't looked the part. I
don't think anybody would agree with that. And it's hard
to do anything in four minutes or two minutes anyway. Again,
if we're being fair, when he said he needs to
be an elite conditioned athlete, that was a little bit
(20:56):
of a I don't want to say shot, but that
wasn't a positive note from your head coach. That wasn't
a positive note from your head coach if you said
he needs to be an elite because remember, it's all
about wording. JJ knows he has to knows he has
(21:19):
to be measured in his wording. And because it's pretty obvious.
I don't know, guys, if we've talked about this. I
have a friend who's worked for President Trump in the
first administration. And if you notice how people who work
for him or want to work with him, they either
bow at the altar or he tries to crucify them. Right,
(21:42):
And the expression they had in the White House, it's
a real thing, is you're either you're either at the
table or you're on the menu. And I love that
you're either at the table or you're on the menu.
And honestly, that's how Lebron treats people. You're either at
the table, you're on the menu. Either are all in
(22:03):
Lebron's the greatest and Bronni's gonna be awesome, or you're
on the menu. And he may tweet at you, he
may call you out or call you over in the
middle in the middle of a competitive basketball game. So
JJ has to be measured with everything he says. Because
(22:23):
Lebron's got rabbit ears, especially about his kid, we all
kind of do. And when he says he needs to
be an elite condition athlete that here's the translation, right,
if you do the coaching translation, Bronni's not in shape.
Bronnie's not in shape. So the the issue with the
(22:49):
idea that he'll become an above average to an elite
shooter is you can't show me anywhere so far in
his life that that has been the case. A Yet,
my issue with Brownie James in terms of the evaluation
of Bronny James has been every NBA player that has
(23:12):
been or every future NBA player I've seen, outside of
a couple that are truly late bloomers, right, there are
some guys that are really late, like grew late high school,
grew in college or whatever. But if you say, hey,
here's a McDonald's all American, you can pick apart. You know,
ten high school games in their senior year where they
were the best player in the court by a mile.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
You're like, well, that's a pro. You know, that's a pro.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
I can't mention the school by name, but there's a
school in Wisconsin that I believe is the number one
rank school and they play the state playoffs for tonight
in Madison, and I went to see them play against
another school they're both in Milwaukee, and there's a off
(24:00):
more who's six foot nine, and you're like, that's a problem.
And so my issue with Bronnie was like, there's never
been a moment where he's been an elite, elite shooter,
So why would we think he why we put that
expectation that he'll be in above average, too great shooter
in the NBA when that's never happened before.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
The part I do.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Agree with is he's getting more comfortable, he's getting confident,
and you're not gonna achieve anything if you're not confident.
Last night was the first night Ronnie James looked like
an NBA player. His confidence is still there. That's something
outstanding considering how Oft discussed his game is despite the
fact he plays like two minutes a game for Lakers.
But let's not get a twisted. He was a minus
(24:41):
thirty six. It was a blowout and his own coach
said he's got to get.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Into better shape.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
and noon Eastern not a m. Pacific.
Speaker 7 (24:50):
Hey, Steve Covino and I'm Rich David and together we're
Covino and Rich on Fox Sports Radio. You could catch
us weekdays from five to seven pm Eastern two to
four Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and of course the
iHeartRadio app. Why should you listen to Covino and Rich.
We talk about everything life, sports, relationships, what's.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Going on in the world.
Speaker 7 (25:09):
We have a lot of fun talking about the stories
behind the stories in the world of sports and pop culture,
stories that well, other shows don't seem to have the
time to discuss. And the fact that we've been friends
for the last twenty years and still work together. I
mean that says something right, So check us out. We
like to get you involved too, take your phone calls,
chop it up. As they say, I'd say, the most
interactive show on Fox Sports Radio, maybe the most interactive
(25:31):
show on planetar. Be sure to check out Covino and
Rich live on Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app
from five to seven pm Eastern two to four Pacific,
And if you miss any of the live show, just
search Covino and Rich wherever you get your podcasts, and
of course on social media that's Covino and Rich.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
What up.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Welcome in this and the Herd wherever you may be
and however you may be making this part of your day.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Thanks so much. I'm Doug.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Got look in for Colin Cowherd. It's the second eighty
of the NCAA Tournament. It may be decision day for
Aaron Rodgers. We're getting closer and closer to the rest
of Major League Baseball season getting underway, and hopefully where
you are, it's as nice as the weather where I
am because spring has arrived, and wow, is it is
(26:19):
it nice?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
I know he had that.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Midweek well mini blizzard running through the northern Midwest. Outside
of that, some some nice weather along the way. Welcome
in and thanks so much for joining me. Colin is
back on Monday. There are some similarities to Aaron Rodgers,
as you just heard from Dan Byer, who works with
me on my show, The Doug Gottlieb Show, which broadcast
(26:44):
daily three to five Eastern CALK to Pacific.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Fox Sports Radio. iHeart ready WEP.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Dan reported that or said, the report is out that
Aaron Rodgers is visiting the Pittsburgh Steelers facility. And it's
kind of interesting. Right in college basketball, the portal opens
on Monday, and what and I don't know how many
of you know this, but now there are lots of
(27:09):
players that thought going into the season like this is it,
this is my last year.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I'm done.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
I mean there are six year seniors, seventh year seniors, whatever,
like I'm done. And then there was a ruling with
the quarterback of Vanderbilt who went to junior college and
I believe one of the years in junior college they
didn't have a season because of COVID whatever. Anyway, he
got an extra year. So now there's a blanket ruling
(27:36):
where if you played junior college or any NAIA basketball,
you get an extra year. So there are lots of
guys who like thought they were done. They're like, oh,
you know what, I might go do this again, and
they'll like Aaron Rodgers, go and have a visit and
and maybe you know, they won't sign with Pittsburgh Steelers,
(27:58):
but they'll sign with your team. I bring it up
because our next guest is the head coach of the
Drake Bulldogs.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
He won four.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
National championships at the Division two level, and I think
in the summer his one of his star shooters, Mitch Muscari,
was going into the private sector, like he was gonna
go work for a living. And well, let's just let
coach McCullum tell the story. Drake Bulldogs win the Missouri
(28:26):
Valley regular season, win their conference tournament championship. They're thirty
one to three. Then they take down Missouri yesterday. Now
they get ready to take on Texas Tech Grant McCaslin,
who ironically told us just last hour they scrimmaged Drake
in the secret scrimmage earlier this year, and now they
play each other in the second round the NCAA Tournament,
and coach McCullum joins us on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Ben, how are you?
Speaker 5 (28:49):
I'm great. How about yourself, Doug.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
I'm not as good as you, not with your team. Okay,
So help tell this story here, right, You get the
Drake job, and Misscari was already working or was going
to go work.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
What happened?
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Yeah, he was gonna go work, you know. I got
the Drake job, and and uh, I obviously had three
coming with and I thought Mitch was done and he
he had a really good financial job in Chicago. He
never ended up starting it though, but he was going
to start it, you know, within the next couple of
months of graduation from from Northwest Missouri State. And the
(29:27):
last day he put his name in the portal, and
I think he just did it, you know, just kind
of making sure that, you know, if he wanted to
he could he could play again. And I was like,
I wonder what he was thinking. So I called him,
I'm like, well, do you want to play? He's like,
I don't know. I was just kind of thinking about it.
I said, well, if you want to do that, let's
just do it here. And he said okay, And so
(29:47):
he thought about it for a while and then eventually
just you know, decided hey, this is you know, this
is something that I want to do. It was a
tough It was a tough decision for him because as
I couldn't give him a lot of advice because I
knew I had something to gain from it. And so
you know, when kids trust you with advice and you
(30:09):
have something to gain in the process, you know, you
just can't really, you know, say you should do this,
but he should do it, And obviously he ended up
doing it, which has been great.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
What what's it like to take this group and so
many of them you mentioned you had three and now
four coming with from the Division two level. What's it
like to go through this where everybody falls back on
the story, Hey, their division two guys, when you take
them down, going back to the preseason, when you win
in Charleston, you beat k State, you beat Vandy, what
(30:41):
what is what is that like for you? When when
you have a group of guys that you've been with
at the Division two level to play so well at this.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
Level, you know, it's been it's been a blast. You know.
I think I think the thing for for me in particular,
when when you take this job, it's it is a
lonely feeling when you take over a job at this
level and you don't have a lot of players, like,
it's very lonely. And when you're able to take three
(31:13):
or four year guys, four of your guys with you
and show up day one and at least you know
you've got guys that are, you know, essentially in your foxhole,
right and guys that are going to fight for what
the program means and fight for your culture and fight
for the effort and that sort of thing. And so
it was a big deal to get them. Obviously, it
(31:35):
was a big deal to get everybody though, and a
lot of those guys came on just blind faith, you know,
where it's like it didn't have to come to Drake
for an unproven at Division one, Division two guy, and
they did. And so obviously it became, you know, everybody together,
everybody connected, and it was fun.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Starts.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
You know, we when we prepare for you, guys who
were like, holy cal, this is the best guy we've
seen all year, and grant, we're the Rizon League. But
we played Oklham State, we played Ohio State, we played Providence,
and I mean, he's a special player. When did you
first see uh starts play in high school.
Speaker 5 (32:21):
When he was a junior. When he was a junior,
he made the state championship, I believe, and lost in
the state title game, and no one really was recruiting
him at the Division IE level and I didn't understand why.
So then we chose to recruit him at the Division
two level. And I thought at that point, I'm like,
(32:44):
this kid is no brainer mid major. You know, we're
going to steal another one. You know. Obviously now he's
probably you know, fringe NBA, and I think eventually he's
probably going to be an NBA player, you know, when
it's all said and done. He just had such a
good demeanor. He's an elite pass er. He's an unselfish person.
He's an unselfish player, you know, and he listens and
(33:08):
wants to be good. He just he just gets it.
And so it certainly helps that he's on our team.
And you know, it also helps that we coached him
for two years, you know, I coached him for two
seasons prior, and so that that really benefited us as well.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
No, no doubt, was there any special hitch in his
gidea up because it was Missouri.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
No, not not really. I think Kansas State it was.
I think it was just the NCAA tournament was probably
he was excited about because you know, to be quite honest,
it's like, you know, I had another guard, Trevor Hudgens
for a while, well you know, and everybody's like, well,
why didn't KSE State offer? Why don't kid? Because because
he wasn't good enough for case State right away? Right,
(33:49):
That's why they didn't.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
Right if you say, if you saw him when he
was sixteen, you would have said he's not not good enough.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
You know, I had that.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
I don't know that.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
I don't like, I don't know if I can, I can't. Obviously,
guys names whatever. I don't know inportal, not in portal.
But yeah, we played against a guy this year who
lit us up at the Division two level and they were,
you know, after the game, like, well why didn't you
offer him? Like well, I wasn't here and when I
got here, he wasn't in the portals.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Like, I don't know what you like?
Speaker 4 (34:15):
We do ask things of people, which are it which
are unfair? Do you does? I think everyone knows that
if you can coach at the division two level, you
can coach Division one level. Bruce Pearl's proved that, you've
proved that others have as well. Does this change in
your mind the perception of recruiting Division two players to
transferrupt the Division one level.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
No, it probably does, but that's because people don't think
for themselves times, you know, I mean it's like, oh,
D two players are great, Let's everybody go get twenty
five D two players, because there's a recency bias already
to it, and so it's it. I don't know, like
I think too often, you know, in college coaching and
(34:58):
even hiring coaches and stuff like that, there becomes a
biased you know, all of a sudden because a D
two guy has success, every D two guy can have success,
and that's just not that's just not the case. Or
you know, if you you know, on any I guy
can be just good, a JUCO guy can be just
as good. And same concept for players, like, just because
some Division two guys have success doesn't necessarily mean that
(35:19):
every D two guy is going to have success, but
it does mean that you can find good players anywhere.
And you just kind of have to trust your own
eye on some of those things. And and and in
today's society, it's it's a lot more difficult to trust
your own eye, just because social media and all those
different things that are like, you know, even when we
took this job, and you know, there's probably fifty to
(35:42):
fifty split where you know, fifty percent of fans would
be like and I can't wait to watch these guys,
think they'd be great, and then there's another fifty percent
that was like, I can't believe they're taking d two
guys and they're going to be awful, And so you
just can't listen to that noise. You just got to
trust yourself. And that's that's what we did. And you know,
(36:04):
we got a little lucky to you know, where just
those guys showed up and competed and is the heck
of Irun and still continues to be that.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Ben McCollum, head coach, Drake. The Bulldogs are thirty one
and three and they take on Texas Tech the Red Raiders,
who they faced in a secret scrimmage. How much can
you take from the secret scrimmage in getting ready for
a second an NCAA tournament.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
Game, Man, I don't know, I don't know, because they're
I mean they're just so well coached, you know, I
just think they're you know, they've got obviously hired one
of my others. He's got he's got Grant, who's one
of my close friends. Who's got Linda who I talked
to about every day. He's got Luke who actually played
(36:48):
for me, Luke Barnwell, the chokey Moore, Kob who's who's
the ac who's so it's like their whole staff is
really close to me. And so I'm not sure how
much you can take from that. You know, Uh, I
don't think either of us really totally prepared for it,
if that makes sense, meaning you know, those scrimmages, it's
(37:09):
better that. I think a lot of people try to
win those scrimmages. Obviously you always want to win everything
you do, but more importantly, you want to you want
to see what works, see what lineups work. And so
I'm not sure how much you can actually take from
that scrimmage.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
Yes, I wish you would have told me that I
tried to win my scrimmage. And then I was like
at the end of us, like, why did I try
to win my scrimmage? Well, I was trying to show,
you know, a group of young guys, build them confidence
in what we're doing, and have one more point in
an opponent. But again, these are just learning lessons as
you only learned by but by doing. Ben McCullum joining us,
who is the Drake Drake head coach. Okay, so you
(37:46):
went from turning down lots of jobs that didn't fit.
Why did Drake fit?
Speaker 5 (37:55):
A couple of reasons. One, I really liked the athletic director,
Brian Hard. I thought he had a good vision for
the program. Too. It was, you know, close to home
probably you know, a Midwest guyde doesn't mean I, you know,
would never live in any other place in the country.
But you know, initially, just that first jump, I wanted
to make sure that it was also beneficial for my
(38:19):
family to get closer to family. And then you know,
it was just the right time, you know, I started
to notice that I started to notice that I was
I wasn't choosing to come back to Northwest, I was
choosing to not take jobs. And I think when you
start to trend that direction, I think that probably gives
(38:41):
you the indication that's probably time to come out of
your comfort zone a little bit. And and you know,
just see what you could do, and and then you
know they were super patient in the process, Drake was.
You know, I think that a lot of these schools
when they hire, which I understand, you know, they they
they offer you the job. The next day, you got
to decide. And it's not really the nature of me.
(39:06):
And so it's my greatest strength and greatest weakness is
my patience. But you know, sometimes it's just is what
it is. And this one just worked out perfect, and
you know, I got put in a good position and
very thankful for it.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
So with that though, now comes ad in speculation there's
other jobs available. How do you handle that?
Speaker 5 (39:25):
Right?
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Will Wade is like, Hey, I'm taking a state like
that's that's happening, and people are like, whoa waits, that's weird.
How are you handling the now speculation about what could be.
Speaker 5 (39:36):
Next for you? Yeah, you know, the same way I've
done it for years. I really try not to. My
personality doesn't allow me to have a divided heart, if
that makes sense, And so I think some people can
can multitask. And do you know what Will Wade is
take a job and still focus on his team and
still focus on everything else. Associated with it. I'm just
(39:59):
different in a personality. It doesn't make me right, doesn't
make him wrong. It's just how I do things. And
so my attention and my kids know that my attention
is on them and making sure that you know, we're
at our best and that I fight for what they are.
And again, has it hurt me in the past, It
(40:21):
absolutely has, but it's helped me create a level of
loyalty with the people surrounding the program because it's like
I know where his heart is at, like I know
where it's at, you know, regardless of you know, all
these things and speculation and stuff like that, is you know,
I'm making sure that I fight for Drake and fight
(40:43):
for these kids and fight for these players. And you know,
it's what I've done for seven eight years and approved
it and I'll continue to do it the same way.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
All right.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
Most important question is when did you start the white
shirt solid tie?
Speaker 5 (40:57):
Look A long time ago. I probably, gosh, I bet
twenty sixteen, probably somewhere in that range, because I know
I had at twenty seventeen because that was our first
national championship. Probably twenty sixteen, maybe even earlier. You know,
I used to wear just different colored ties, different colored shirts,
(41:19):
you know, different everything. And then I was like, man,
I don't even want to make a decision today because
we got to make ten thousand decisions in the game.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yea.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
And so so I was just you know, I was
always was fascinated by Billy Donovan and they just wore
a white shirt. So I just wore a white shirt and.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
You don't, okay.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
So then the follow then the follow up is is
that the same blue tie or are there multiple blue
ties that that that look alike?
Speaker 5 (41:45):
It is the same blue tie, always the same blue tie. Yep,
it says the same whole year.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
How do you not get a spot?
Speaker 4 (41:53):
How do you not get anything on it?
Speaker 3 (41:54):
And I get coffee on it?
Speaker 5 (41:55):
Something else? Yeah, it's it's it's used now it's yes,
Well man, that's the beauty of it. What are you
going to go see this? What a bunch of scrappers?
Now that's what we do. So it's not there's there's.
Speaker 4 (42:08):
No there's no backup tie. There's there's no backup tie.
Speaker 5 (42:11):
No no, heck, no no backup players either. No. We
just the ties is who we are as a team. Man,
We're not perfect, and we're you know sometimes we're bruised
and battered, but we're always fighting, so that's pretty good.
I just made that up, so but no, it's it's
the same time all the time.
Speaker 4 (42:33):
Well, listen, I appreciate that when I got we got
we had a check for my coaching clinic that I
was able to watch over on the other sideline. I
had no doubt of what would happen yesterday. I'm really
interested in what happens tomorrow. We wish you the best
of luck and we'll talk to Thanks so much for
joining us.
Speaker 5 (42:48):
Yes, thanks for having me on all right.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Appreciate its Bet Mccollumy's the head coach of the Drake Bulldogs.
He's won four national titles at the Division two level.
In his first year at Division one, they are thirty
one and three on the year.
Hosts And Creators
Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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