July 25, 2025 • 36 mins
Colin reacts to training camp reports about Bears quarterback Caleb Williams struggling to learn the new offense under new head coach Ben Johnson and why you can’t ignore the early warning signs. He points out the difference between Michael Jordan’s career and LeBron James’s and why it’s no surprise MJ is still beloved while LeBron is still polarizing. Plus, he talks to former head coach Dave Wannstedt about Williams issues in training camp and Nick Saban considering a return to the NFL
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox
Sports Radio in noon to three eastern nine am to
noone Pacific. Find your local station for the Herd at
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Here we go. It is a Friday. Oh and there's
allready news breaking my kind of news. All right. Former
Bears Dots Dave wants that joins us at an hour.
It is another bumpy day, Jmax for Caleb Williams. So
we know an OTAs Ben Jonson Dot you know, a
(00:50):
little miffed couldn't get the play into the huddles. They're
asking them to do some different stuff sometimes under center.
A lot of those coaches like that. Sean Payton likes that.
So are you ready for the new news? Jmac laying
on me, big guy. Okay, So yesterday, three days ago,
he struggled. Ben Johnson was furious couldn't get to play
(01:13):
in and out. Yesterday struggled with a deep ball. Today,
Caleb Williams two red zone picks, one tip ball another
one horrible pass. So three days in a row, it's
gotten a little bumpy for Caleb Williams. So people say,
I hear athletes say this. I hear people say that
you can't take a lot from camp. You can see
(01:36):
red flags positive negative, Andrew Luck, Jaden Daniels first week
of camp, Commander's colts. You were hearing glowing reports. Disastrous
first dates rarely become great, thirty year marriages. I've interviewed
lots of people in my life. Disastrous interviews never become great.
(01:58):
Higher it matters. Sean Payton last year was texting me
in August. He's like bow Knicks. That may take a
few starts. Guy's gonna be good by October. Bow Nicks
one h three passer rating. You can see good. It
can be one of those musical shows. It can be
an athlete, It can be an interview, it could be
(02:19):
a first date. You can see stuff. Or do they
say men decide in eight seconds, Women decide in eight
minutes if they want to spend any time with this person.
So Caleb Williams was sold as a generational talent. We
were all hoping it would be this generation, right, like,
how long do you want us to ask?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Last?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
And wait? So remember this Ben Johnson, Ben Johnson's first
year with Jared Goff. Let's go back to that. Remember
that that Lions team twenty twenty two was not the
roster it is now. The old line wasn't quite set.
Jared Goff first year with Ben Johnson. Now the Bears coach,
(02:59):
the NFL twenty nine touchdown seven, picks seventh and passer
rating sixth in passing yards. And again, that Lion's team
isn't the one now. That's three off seasons ago. The
Lions team now I don't think is as good offensively
as the Bears team right now with their personnel. So
I feel this Quarterbacks in twenty twenty five are a
(03:20):
little bit like streaming shows.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Bro.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
If you're not getting me by the second episode early,
I'm out. Used to be three year. Give Eli Manning
three years. Those days are over. Private coaching seven on
seven camps. You can transfer in high school and college
to a better place. Those days are over. He's gotta
be good by late September and early October. And that
(03:44):
streaming show you know it and I know it by
the second episode. If you're eight ten minutes ten and
you're like the writing's bad, it doesn't work, You're on
to another streaming show or another service. And so I
think you got to grab people early in this relationship.
So Ben Johnson yesterday say it's not as bad as
it was reported, but today seven on seven drills, red
(04:06):
zone two picks not good. Here's Ben Johnson.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I know some people enjoyed me throwing the first team
out of practice.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
Not the case.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
We got to end up executing getting in and out
of the huddle a certain way, and it wasn't that way.
And we're learning, we're growing. You know, there were some
things from the springtime expected to carry over that that
was probably one we just don't have any tolerance for anymore.
We got we got too far to go.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, I mean this is year two generational talent. Hopefully
this one OTAs three days at camp, every day at
something else. I like him a lot, but the critics
make good points. Hero Ball runs backwards. A lot of
(04:57):
this NFL quarterback stuff is work ethic and getting in
and out of plays and not making big airs. I
say this all the time about Mahomes about three times
a game, jaw dropping twenty seven dropbacks. He's just hitting
the drag routes. So Caleb right now struggling with the
(05:18):
layup stuff, the easy stuff. Don't throw picks in the
red zone, dirt it so you know what they say,
red zone. You got to throw it lower out of
the end zone. Right, So today two picks not great.
So yesterday I did a rant and it got a
lot of It was a couple of days ago and
it got a lot of play. And my rant was,
(05:38):
anytime you talk Michael and Lebron James, and Lebron's been
in the news because he hasn't made contact with new
Laker market. Smart guys on vacation, put your phone down.
When I go on vacation, all run into people who's
filling in for you. I have no idea, it's not
my company. I put my phone down, I move on.
I'm going to defend Lebron on that we should all
put our phone downs and disappear when we go on
vacation and be with our kids and our families and
(05:59):
our wife and our in laws or whatever. So I
had this rant that Lebron will never be as beloved
as Michael because we went through the Michael journey with him.
We saw the Pistons beat him up and he had
multiple coaches, and we saw the Celtics beat him up,
and we lived through his journey. He was a college
basketball player at Carolina, the great shot against Georgetown. So
(06:22):
sports makes you feel something, and Michael makes us feel something.
And Lebron has been you know, I called him and
my Rant the ultimate basketball opportunist, and it was seen
as a shot at Lebron. And I want to add clarity,
it's not I would have left Cleveland the first time too.
Seven years couldn't get him an All Star. You don't owe
(06:42):
your first team that drafts you your entire career. College
kids now transfer two or three times. But if I
was Lebron, I would have stayed in Miami because of
Eric Spolstra, Mickey Harrison, the owner, and pat Riley, no
state tax. It's a winter league, warm weather and the
Miami Heat are always in contention for great free agents.
I would have stayed there. Now people say, well, Lebron
(07:06):
his heart was in Cleveland. No, it wasn't. He left
it a second time. He understood going to Cleveland was
good for his brand. He didn't like being a villain.
He acknowledged that later the Sports illustrated the letter, and
I'm not banging on people who leave Cleveland. Our staff
put it a list today have people that have left Cleveland.
It's a lot of Drew Carey and George Steinbrenner and
(07:28):
Steve Harvey and Paul Newman and the Kelsey's and Drew
Carey and Logan Paul and Lebron James. A lot of
people leave Cleveland. There's just you know, there's New York,
there's Chicago. In the Midwest, there's la There's London, there's
there's Cleveland's not a place you have to stay or
that is always great for commerce. It's a great place
to be born and from. Sometimes it's not a great
(07:49):
place in your prime to be living right for your career.
So I'm not banging on that. But don't tell me
that Lebron Cleveland's where his heart is. He's not going
to retire inn Akron and he left it twice. And
the reason he left it it was time he wanted
to go to La. It was good for his brand
and he could play with bigger stars because bigger stars
like Luke and Ad liked the brand. Play in Los Angeles,
(08:13):
and so I go back to this is that the downside,
and I speak from experience, to bouncing around the country
in your career. You know, if anybody's followed me Vegas, Tampa, Portland, Fox, ESPN,
the downside of that is that you know you never
live in that cul de sac where your kids grow
(08:34):
up and they have lifelong friends. I have to live
with that, the upside to moving around a lot. And
Lebron has seen this. He's overall played with better teammates.
Michael's best teammate, He's got one great one, Scottie Pippen.
Lebron's got d Wade and Kyrie Irving and Chris Bosh
and A d And Lebron's played with more great players.
(08:55):
Lebron's been to more finals. Lebron's had fewer long drought
or battles within an organization. He bails for commerce, and
that's okay. But my whole point was for athletes, we
love the perseverance. There is a beauty in the struggle.
(09:16):
They make thirty for thirties on the struggle. They're almost
all about somebody overcoming turbulence, chaos, fighting and winning. That's
where they make thirty for thirties from and sports is romanticized,
and we've always thought of Michael as part of our
(09:36):
sports love story. Lebron has simply been transactional. That's the
downside to being the best basketball opportunists ever. You played
with better teammates, you made more finals, you made a
lot more money, by the way, as a player. But
(09:58):
it's hard to fall in love with that. You fall
in love with the people in your cul de sac,
same high school, same people you grew up with. Thanksgiving
next door neighbor may just pop into the house with
a gift. You don't get that with Lebron, and you
got it with Michael. And that's really the difference. Okay,
(10:20):
So I know you're thinking, I'm obsessing about this Caleb
Williams stuff. But Jaden Daniels hit, bon Nick's hit, I'm
gonna be all over JJ McCarthy. I think Drake May's hit.
I think the JJ McCarthy Caleb Williams stories. If these
guys hit and Pettick's hits, it's a six for six
draft with quarterbacks in the first round. Never happened. And
(10:42):
I do think struggling it's red zone one day deep
balls next day, can't get into a play the next day.
It matters. My athletes say, well, you can't take everything
or anything from camp, you can take some stuff. I
remember last year j Mack, Jayden and Daniels said this
five times on the air. I'm like, generally coaches kind
(11:05):
of keep quiet to lower expectations on rookies. And we
said this four or five times. Dan Quinn Kingsbury kept
coming out publicly and going, this is unbelievable. And this
was after like three practices. You can watch those musical shows,
the Voice from American Idol years ago. You can see
great very quickly. Now it may be hard to tell
(11:27):
good to very good, or bad to disaster, but you
can see awful and you can see great very quickly.
And I don't think it takes long on a date
or a job interview, or for a young quarterback to
see trouble. Sean Payton was texting me last year in
camp and he was like, kid's gonna be good. He said,
(11:48):
give him a few starts. You know, he's got to
get up to the speed. You know, nobody starters don't
plan preseason, can't take a ton for preseason. But he
was saying the kids got it. He's going to be
good soon. And by October boon Nicks was a really
good quarterback.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
Well, it's a perfect seamless move from what Drew Brees
looked like in the pocket to bow Nicks.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Very similar.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
You know, I look at Jared Goff and then I
look at Caleb Williams. Those are two polar opposite quarterbacks,
and I just wonder. I'm starting to wonder, and again
I probably shouldn't, but this is you hammering away at
Caleb Williams every day. I'm starting to wonder, Like Ben Johnson,
great offensive mind, we don't know what he's going to
be as a head coach. Head coach is a lot
more difficult than just being an offensive coordinator. And so far,
(12:31):
you know, Rocky Start, maybe you're onto something.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I don't know. It is interesting when a guy comes
with a great reputation as a coordinator, like like, for instance,
Kyle Shanahan came in with a great reputation as a coordinator.
That's usually successful. I mean, Sean McVay came in and
people were saying, this guy's as sharp as any thirty
year old coaching person in the league, and he was
(12:56):
a home run. Now there are guys you're not sure
how it's gonna work. But I mean Ben Johnson, we
talked about him for two years. We were like, dude,
he is he is calling and dialing up misdirection trick
plays like he was. He was not your typical offensive
coordinator like he was somebody we were sort of mesmerized by.
(13:18):
We were mesmerized by Kyle shanahan. So and by the way,
when Kevin O'Connell got the job in Minnesota, he was
called the tall Sean McVay. People said, yeah, he is
really sharp. When Demiko Ryans went to Houston defensive coach,
but I can remember making a call to the Niners
and they're like, bro, he moved up our organization in
two years. He was our sharpest assistant first day on
(13:41):
the job. So I do think Ben feels like more
of a McVeigh, a shanahan, or a Kevin O'Connell. Zach
Taylor wasn't somebody. People said he was bright, but he
didn't get all the accolades of Ben Johnson or Kevin
O'Connell or Kyle shanahan. People say, you know, he's mcveigh's
got but Raheem Morris. People liked him, McVay liked him.
(14:02):
He didn't get the accolades. Ben's coming in with a
lot of momentum.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
Yeah, well, one thing we I totally forgotten to you
just said it now. So Belichick went from Drew Bled
so successful to Brady similar quarterbacks, big strapping pocket guys, right,
Andy Reid goes Donovan McNabb, who was, you know, really
really good quarterback. We forget that, and to Patrick Mahomes
similar like Ken Run but Ken Winney.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Even Alex Smith was a mover.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Alex Smith was a mover.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Jared Goff to Caleb Williams.
Speaker 5 (14:29):
You would agree those are not the same type of quarterbacks.
Coup and I just wonder if the learning curve is
a little larger for Ben than we thought it might be.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I think that's a very legitimate and a very good point.
It's like going from Matt Ryan to Caleb Williams, Jared
Goff to Caleb Williams. Is it is a total different sensibility.
And I do think Andy Reid has mastered and Nick
Siriannie's done a good job with this. You have to
let athletes be athletes. John Harbaugh has always said, there
are times Sean McDermott and the offensive court at Buffalo,
(15:00):
you gotta let Josh Allen be Josh Allen. You cannot
have a rigidity with coaching. So that's a very very
fair point the home you worked so hard for.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
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Speaker 6 (15:19):
Hey, we're Cavino and Rich Fox Sports Radio every day
five to seven pm Eastern. But here's the thing, we
never have enough time to get to everything we want
to get to.
Speaker 7 (15:28):
And that's why we have a brand new podcast called
over Promised. You see, we're having so much fun in
our two hour show. We never get to everything, honestly,
because this guy is over promising things we never have
time for. Yeah, you blubber list name in me.
Speaker 6 (15:42):
Well you know what it's called over promise. You should
be good at it because you've been over promising women
for years.
Speaker 7 (15:46):
Well, it's a Cavino and Rich after show, and we
want you to be a part of it. We're gonna
be talking sports, of course, but we're also gonna talk
life and relationships and if Rich and I are arguing
about something or we didn't have enough time. It will
continue on our after show called over Promised.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Well, if you don't get enough Covino and Rich, make
sure you check out over Promise and also Uncensored by
the way, so maybe.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
We'll go at it even a little harder.
Speaker 6 (16:08):
It's gonna be the best after show podcast of all time.
Speaker 7 (16:11):
There you go over Promising, and remember you could see
on YouTube, but definitely join us. Listen Over Promised with
Cavino and Rich on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or
wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Well, fans do it all the time. I understand it
when they do. Media does it too often. I don't
like it when they do, they pander instead of just
saying the truth out loud. Andrew Berry is a very
sharp general manager of the Cleveland Browns. I've said before,
Kevin Stefanski and Andrew Berry have overcome a lot. I
think they're both top twenty five percent of the league
(16:47):
at their respective jobs. Andrew's smart and instead of pandering,
which the media constantly does with young athletes, Andrew Berry
said what Shador Sanders did getting two speeding tickets as
a fifth round draft pick as eight quarterback was dumb here.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
He is.
Speaker 8 (17:07):
Not smart, just not smart. It's not just about, you know,
driving a car really fast, but it's about the fact
that you can endanger other people. It's about the fact
that if a deer someone you know, cuts out in
front of you, like your reaction time. It's just dangerous
and it's not something that we want our guys to
be doing. It's not something that they should be doing.
(17:29):
And the number one reason is because we don't want
some type of catastrophic accent.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
He's a fifth round pick. They haven't invested anything in him.
They could show him the door tomorrow. He's a quarterback.
The standards higher. I heard a lot of this, colin.
It's no big deal. I've got a speeding ticket. Thirty
four percent of American men have been arrested. I'm going
to hold my quarterback to a little higher standard than
the general public. Seventy four percent of Americans are overweight.
(17:58):
Should my pro athlete, I mean, bob down the street?
Is again, there are standards. I need smarter, I need
more dedicated, I need more focus than young guys getting
arrested and people overweight. That's the average citizen. Fine, this
is not an average position. Quarterbacks don't get sick days.
You wake up with the sinus infection, you're out. They do,
(18:21):
grab your helmet, let's go, let's go, get in the huddle.
Hurry up. Two speeding tickets. Fifth round quarterback is dumb.
You know, speeding ticket becomes not knowing the formation on Sunday. Like,
it's just not that difficult. Quarterbacks are supposed to put
out fires, not stardom. So Andrew Berry is speaking the
(18:42):
truth out loud. Whenever I hear this, well I've done
this or I've done that. That's not the standard I'm
shooting for quarterback NFL franchise. There's thirty two starting jobs
in the country. Like that's it. I mean, teams give
you about a year and a half and then move off.
You have to make impressions. So I just appreciate a
(19:06):
general manager going to a podium and not pandering. Just
call it out not good enough.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd weekdays
in noon Easter not a em Pacific.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
All right, here we go, it's hour two. We got news.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
J Mack.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
We started our show an hour ago talking about Caleb Williams.
So we had a bumpy ota and three straight days
he has scoffed and struggled. Today. Two picks in the
seven on seven red zone drills. So that red zone
is a place you do not make mistakes. I'm sure
it's at the front of the end zone, you throw
it low. If it's at the back of the end zone,
(19:47):
you throw it high. You don't throw picks in the
red zone. He had two today. People are getting a
little worked out, and I go ahead.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Hey, jj Watt, I'm sure you saw JJ Watt put
something on social It was alluded to your take on
Caleb Williams and you know, training camp picks and so forth.
And he kind of tried to pick it apart, and
all these people think, oh, see, coward drawing. It's no
big deal that Caleb Williams is messing up here.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Early on.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Get you guys. Everything is something, Yeah, nothing is everything.
But Jaden Daniels last year at camp, Dan Quinn and
Cliff Kingsbury. First week of camp, we're saying publicly, oh
my god, this kid is miles ahead of where rookies are.
Sean Payton is texting me during camp last year, bon
(20:38):
Nicks needs a few starts, He's gonna get good really fast.
By October, bo Nicks had a passer rating over one hundred.
Everything matters. I want to bring in the former Bears coach.
It's so apropos that we have Dave Wantet on the
show today. Six years Bears, five years Dolphins, thirty nine
years coaching football. So listen, you can give Caleb a
little bit of a pass for last year was I mean,
(21:00):
they had a three head coaches by the end of it.
But Dave, the critics of Caleb Williams said he plays
too much hero ball, he could struggle with accuracy, he
could be a little bit moody. So when I see
with Ben Johnson all of these things coming out at camp,
he's not getting plays in the footwork, he's again little
(21:22):
hero ball holding on the ball. It's something. Is I
don't want to hear. That's nothing. Isn't it something?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yes, it is. And I'll tell you this in training camp,
and you know I lived this. You know, we would
go through training camp and let's say we were struggling
running the football. We would say, well, it's just pre season,
it's just a training camp. Those things usually do show
up once you start playing for real, but it's early
and I would just say this, Hey, let's keep in
(21:51):
mind last year at training camp, he was a guy
that had a tough time getting a snap because he
was never up under. So I mean, this is how
primitive the whole pro passing game under center play action
pass was to this kid. So you know, I think
(22:11):
it's a starting point there and then and then Ben
does everything by timing. By that, I mean it's one, two,
three in the balls coming out. Now you've got to
get it obviously to the right person, or it might
be five steps one two, three, four, five, and everything
is tied together, from the ligne protection to the receiver
routes and the quarterback. So this is there is a
(22:34):
learning process here. And I would probably say the biggest
difference between here and OTAs is now there's a pass
rush and they're not hitting the quarterback, but the Bears
now are getting a lot of pressure and probably putting
the hands up, and that's a little bit different from
him because he's throwing from a different spot. You go
back to his college days, callin at USC this guy,
(22:59):
he saw more three man rush and more of a
free event defense than any quarterback in college football because
they knew it. He wouldn't sit in the pocket. He
was gonna scramble and he was gonna try to throw
it deep. So this is now all of a sudden,
it's playfake and it's coming out one, two three. This
is completely foreign to him. I think he'll be fine.
(23:21):
You know, I'm going up for a couple of days
next week, so i'll get a first hand looking and
sit Down'm gonna sit down with Ben. We'll have a
couple of good conversations.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
I want to ask you about Mike McDaniel. So I
do think in this day and age, offensive coaches have
an advantage because all the rules lean offense. So it
does help to be an offensive coach. Now that doesn't
mean Sean McDermott can't be great, but even Belichick felt
a little out of touch his last four or five
years in New England. The whole darn league now is
(23:52):
about quarterbacks and offensive coaches. And Mike McDaniel goes to
Miami and everybody loved him. He was quirky, he was unique,
and I take away now two three years later, is
a lot of sizzle, not a lot of steak. They
don't run the ball. It's a lot of clever, it's
a lot of multiple sets in motion. I would move
(24:12):
off Tyreek Hill. I would, I would get picks. I
don't think it's working in Miami. I don't think it is.
You've been there. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Well, you know, two thoughts. Number one, the Tyreek Hill situation.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
How do you have an outside shot to go to
the playoffs as a wild park, which they did last
year and some things had a fall right, but that
last game if they win and two or three things
happened and your best player, Tyreek Hill, does not go
in the game, and they asked you that at a
press conference and you don't have an answer. I'm still
(24:50):
like taking back a little bit by that response and
the other thing that bothers me. And you hit it
right on the head. You know, Chris Breer was on
my staff when I was there. He was one of
my scouts. Great. I thought it was very good. I
don't know Mike is a head coach. But the players
that they signed as free agents, the players that they drafted.
The first comment out of everybody's moth this year at
(25:12):
Miami was he's a tough guy. Oh, we've drafted the
big tackle grant out of Michigan. But you know why
he is a tough guy. It's weak, it's it's it's
you know. I hate to say this, but it's probably
too late. It's like, halfway through the season you decide
that you want to run the football. It's too late.
That's training camp and now all of a sudden they
(25:34):
want to become a tough football team. I just don't.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
It's gonna be very difficult to turn that mindset.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, you know, it's funny about guys like Kyle Shanahan,
Matt lafleur, and Sean McVay, even though they're offensive coaches,
they love the run game. They loved Shanahan and McVay
and Lafleur love power football, and so I think sometimes
I think McDaniel again, I just I understood the media
(26:01):
falling for it. But it was a lot of motion
and a lot of stuff didn't matter. But the difference
between Shanahan and McDaniel, because there's a lot of the
same offenses. Shanahan runs the ball. He loves to run
the ball, and we all know.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
The quarterback is the key to all this stuff. At
the end of the day, two is down there saying
that he hasn't patched it up yet. He has a
problem with Tyreek Hill. They haven't really bonded since the
end of the season when Tyreek Hill said he didn't
want to have any to do with the Dolphins, he
didn't like their culture. Well, I tell you what happened
(26:37):
to miniicamps, Colin, what happened to OTAs. These guys had
six months to work through that problem, that issue, whatever
it is, to what extent, I don't know. But when
you got your starting quarterback coming out during training camp
saying I got a problem with him. We're not on
the same page. That's concerns the heck out of me.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
When I watched the old Dallas Cowboy films NFL films,
and you were part of that great team with Jimmy Johnson,
and I hear Troy Aikman, Jimmy had left, Barry was there,
and and Troy is lighting guys up, and he's questioning
maturity on his teammates. He's questioning maturity, and I think
that takes That's why I like my quarterbacks sometimes to
(27:20):
be a grown up here and Shadoor Sanders gets two tickets,
And finally Andrew Berry came out and said, that's just
not smart. What do you do You don't have a
dominant quarterback, you drafted two kids, you got Kenny Pickett?
What do you do with tickets? How do you address it?
As a coach? It would be so hard for me
to watch Shador Sanders and not make judgments on him
(27:43):
based on driving ninety miles an hour as a fifth
round rookie. I would have a hard time looking at
him the same way. What do you make of what
he did? And how how much do you think that
will hurt his Cleveland experience?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I think it's going to affect him. I'll tell you why.
You know, he's a quarterback. If you're a defensive lineman,
it's still wrong, It still would concern you. But I'll
be honest with you. I've had defensive linemen that it's
kind of fallen into the same mentality. Always something you
know going on with the guy. No one ever talked
(28:19):
about it. But your quarterback is the face of the
program and everything is going to be magnified that this
kid does. And the second thing that really bothers me is,
you know and I'm sure Dion's told him this, son,
there's a reason that you fell from the first round
down to the fours and fifth round. There's a reason
for that. Okay, we cannot give these people any reason
(28:42):
to think anything negative about you except football performance. If
the football performance isn't good enough, hey, that's it. But
don't give them any other reason. And here we go.
We got a reason to just put a little doubt
in your minds, not just for Cleveland, whether with Cleveland
or anybody else. There's a lot of GMS that passed
(29:03):
on this kid, a lot of GMS, and I'm up
to to draft him. Why.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I don't know all.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
The details that this is just not good overall. I
don't think it's just another check to the box.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
So you know, I was saying this this week and
it sounds weird. I said, the most important thing when
you take a job is your quarterback. That's why Harbaugh
took the Chargers, justin Herbert. But the second most important
thing is ownership. And I said, I think I would
take the Niners job which has good ownership, and a
(29:37):
which has great ownership and a good quarterback. Brought Purty
over going to Cincinnati, where Burrow's great, but I don't
trust the scouting department. I don't trust the ownership. And
I said, I worry about Joe Burrow becoming Matt Stafford,
where we all know he's great, but there's it's a
circus of coaches. They don't draft well enough. The organization
(30:00):
at the top isn't good enough. So I saw a
story this week about Joe Burrell. He was upset about
more holdouts. How do you think the Burrow thing? How
do you think it plays out? Because Dave, he's the
best quarterback. Last year, there's an argument he was the
league's best quarterback. He was the best quarterback in the
league and did not make the playoffs. How did you
(30:23):
are you worried that he becomes Stafford in Detroit?
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yes? Absolutely, I think you have to be, you know,
because I don't know even with Henderson and their number
one draft picks hold out to right the past rusher
from Texas A and M. But I would say this.
I'm gonna just remind me of a little story. You know.
I worked for the Dolphins with coach Shula for six
weeks before Jimmy got the Dallas job, and Coach Shuler
told me Tward. I'm gonna dispute your priorities here. He said,
(30:52):
you know the different day between this NFL job and
the UH in college. And I said, no, coach, and
he said, well, I understand who the most important people
are in the NFL. Number one year owner, number two
year owner, and number three year owner.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
So that's just.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
I don't know this coach. If Coach Schuler knew anything
then and then, but that was his philosophy. But I
would say to this, Okay, I don't know. It's a distraction.
The first thought that comes to my mind is it's
a distraction, and you do not Last year it was
receivers getting them signed. And man, the quickest way to
(31:29):
be defeated. You've heard me say this when we did
shows together, is to be distracted. And right now this
football team is distracted. And you know, you know, Mike
Brown said, yeah, we'll get him signed. I mean, he's
thirty years old. You know what the market is, what
what God and what Miles Garrett, you know what the
pay this guy? Because you know the reason when you
(31:50):
have a good, a great offense like you have with
Burrow and that group of receivers, a great offense, it's
going to score points at the end of the game.
We always talk about you have to have defensive closures,
and who are your closers. It's your pass rushers, your
two pass rushers, and your two corners. They're the guys.
If you don't have them, you have a tough time
(32:13):
stopping people when they're throwing it. And you do have
the lead. That was the Dolphins problem for years with
Dan Marino. He did a lead, couldn't get off the
field on defense and they get on a score. I mean,
he's thirty years old, so you get three good years
on sim to a three year contract. This is my opinion.
Simon to a three year contract and let Burrow you know,
(32:34):
in three years. I mean, you know, I don't know.
It just bothers me that you would let this distraction.
I don't know what's going on with their number one pick,
the rookie, the defensive end. You know, language or something
I read somebody said, I don't know about these rookie
contracts anymore. You know what he's talking about with language.
But do you need these two guys in there? You
need them in there now.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And it should be noted that when Hendrickson did not play.
They're like thirty second with the pass rush, so he
is their pass rush. Finally, Dave wants that joining us.
One of my favorite people. I've said this with Nick Saban.
He's not going back to college, Dave, because with the
NIL you have to pay so much money for players
(33:16):
fifteen million. You have to go to your boosters to
get fifteen million bucks. You're not going to buy out
a coach for sixty million, pay Nick Saban seventy million,
raise fifteen There's too much money. Now, you're not going
to fire your coach. Nick's not going to coach college.
He already did great there. But I do think because
of the way Miami ended, he would take a call
(33:36):
if arch Manning went to the Saints or arch Manning
went to Cleveland, I think he would take the phone call.
Speaker 6 (33:43):
Do you.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
He would take the phone call just because you know,
everybody wants to be wanted. Everybody wants to you know,
and I can speak from Jimmy. I mean, I'm not
getting into the teams. But even when Jimmy was into
Fox several years okay, when he was done with it
all that, he called me one time in particular and
was offered so much money to run the whole thing
(34:07):
coach GM everything with the team, and he took the call,
you know, but obviously he didn't have any interest in
doing it. So I think that's where Nick's are at
right now, where Belichick's enjoying us. I saw Bill's press
conference and he's talking about going out and meeting with alumni.
How much he enjoyed going to other sports men's and
women's and meeting the student athletes. You know, it's new
(34:29):
to Bill, So he's enjoying it right now. You know Nick,
Nick's kind of going. He's traveled that road. I don't
see Nick getting back into it.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
By the way, how do you think Belichick does.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
I think he's gonna do good, you know, the biggest
and I did it with Pitt when I went back
to Pitt and I had some really good players obviously,
you know ReBs and that company. What happens, though, is
you don't have the restriction in colleagues with classes and
the time. You don't have him Bill as such a
perfectionist and you know, do it over, do it over,
(35:02):
meet more, watch more tape the time. Restrictions in college
are the number one thing that gets you when you
separate the NFL from college football, in my opinion, and
players aren't gonna have it down as pat and they're
going to make mistakes, and whether it be turning the
ball over or breaking coverages, things like that happen with
(35:23):
college kids, which all of a sudden, you might be
doing a fabulous job coaching, and you may have a
lot of talent, but they make a mistake because you
can't spend the time with them in college that you
can in the NFL. That's the hurdle he's going to
have to get over.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, that's always been my point about, Like I said this,
Bill Walsh coached in college, but the college limitations limited
how brilliant Bill Walsh could be. But when you gave
him fifty hours a week or Belichick all that extra time,
Bill's the best defensive coach ever. Bill Walsh the best
offensive coach ever. If you told Andy Read he only
(36:00):
got seventeen hours a week and he'd be pulling his
hair out. Dave Vonstadt as always coached great. Seeing you
Thanks for listening to the Best of the Herd podcast.
Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox
Sports Radio in noon to three eastern nine am to
noone Pacific. Find your local station for the Herd at
Fox Sports Radio dot com, or stream us live every
day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio
or FSR.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is the Best of the Herd with Colin cowher
on Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Here we go. It is a Friday. Oh and there's
allready news breaking my kind of news. All right. Former
Bears Dots Dave wants that joins us at an hour.
It is another bumpy day, Jmax for Caleb Williams. So
we know an OTAs Ben Jonson Dot you know, a
(00:50):
little miffed couldn't get the play into the huddles. They're
asking them to do some different stuff sometimes under center.
A lot of those coaches like that. Sean Payton likes that.
So are you ready for the new news? Jmac laying
on me, big guy. Okay, So yesterday, three days ago,
he struggled. Ben Johnson was furious couldn't get to play
(01:13):
in and out. Yesterday struggled with a deep ball. Today,
Caleb Williams two red zone picks, one tip ball another
one horrible pass. So three days in a row, it's
gotten a little bumpy for Caleb Williams. So people say,
I hear athletes say this. I hear people say that
you can't take a lot from camp. You can see
(01:36):
red flags positive negative, Andrew Luck, Jaden Daniels first week
of camp, Commander's colts. You were hearing glowing reports. Disastrous
first dates rarely become great, thirty year marriages. I've interviewed
lots of people in my life. Disastrous interviews never become great.
(01:58):
Higher it matters. Sean Payton last year was texting me
in August. He's like bow Knicks. That may take a
few starts. Guy's gonna be good by October. Bow Nicks
one h three passer rating. You can see good. It
can be one of those musical shows. It can be
an athlete, It can be an interview, it could be
(02:19):
a first date. You can see stuff. Or do they
say men decide in eight seconds, Women decide in eight
minutes if they want to spend any time with this person.
So Caleb Williams was sold as a generational talent. We
were all hoping it would be this generation, right, like,
how long do you want us to ask?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Last?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
And wait? So remember this Ben Johnson, Ben Johnson's first
year with Jared Goff. Let's go back to that. Remember
that that Lions team twenty twenty two was not the
roster it is now. The old line wasn't quite set.
Jared Goff first year with Ben Johnson. Now the Bears coach,
(02:59):
the NFL twenty nine touchdown seven, picks seventh and passer
rating sixth in passing yards. And again, that Lion's team
isn't the one now. That's three off seasons ago. The
Lions team now I don't think is as good offensively
as the Bears team right now with their personnel. So
I feel this Quarterbacks in twenty twenty five are a
(03:20):
little bit like streaming shows.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Bro.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
If you're not getting me by the second episode early,
I'm out. Used to be three year. Give Eli Manning
three years. Those days are over. Private coaching seven on
seven camps. You can transfer in high school and college
to a better place. Those days are over. He's gotta
be good by late September and early October. And that
(03:44):
streaming show you know it and I know it by
the second episode. If you're eight ten minutes ten and
you're like the writing's bad, it doesn't work, You're on
to another streaming show or another service. And so I
think you got to grab people early in this relationship.
So Ben Johnson yesterday say it's not as bad as
it was reported, but today seven on seven drills, red
(04:06):
zone two picks not good. Here's Ben Johnson.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I know some people enjoyed me throwing the first team
out of practice.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
Not the case.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
We got to end up executing getting in and out
of the huddle a certain way, and it wasn't that way.
And we're learning, we're growing. You know, there were some
things from the springtime expected to carry over that that
was probably one we just don't have any tolerance for anymore.
We got we got too far to go.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, I mean this is year two generational talent. Hopefully
this one OTAs three days at camp, every day at
something else. I like him a lot, but the critics
make good points. Hero Ball runs backwards. A lot of
(04:57):
this NFL quarterback stuff is work ethic and getting in
and out of plays and not making big airs. I
say this all the time about Mahomes about three times
a game, jaw dropping twenty seven dropbacks. He's just hitting
the drag routes. So Caleb right now struggling with the
(05:18):
layup stuff, the easy stuff. Don't throw picks in the
red zone, dirt it so you know what they say,
red zone. You got to throw it lower out of
the end zone. Right, So today two picks not great.
So yesterday I did a rant and it got a
lot of It was a couple of days ago and
it got a lot of play. And my rant was,
(05:38):
anytime you talk Michael and Lebron James, and Lebron's been
in the news because he hasn't made contact with new
Laker market. Smart guys on vacation, put your phone down.
When I go on vacation, all run into people who's
filling in for you. I have no idea, it's not
my company. I put my phone down, I move on.
I'm going to defend Lebron on that we should all
put our phone downs and disappear when we go on
vacation and be with our kids and our families and
(05:59):
our wife and our in laws or whatever. So I
had this rant that Lebron will never be as beloved
as Michael because we went through the Michael journey with him.
We saw the Pistons beat him up and he had
multiple coaches, and we saw the Celtics beat him up,
and we lived through his journey. He was a college
basketball player at Carolina, the great shot against Georgetown. So
(06:22):
sports makes you feel something, and Michael makes us feel something.
And Lebron has been you know, I called him and
my Rant the ultimate basketball opportunist, and it was seen
as a shot at Lebron. And I want to add clarity,
it's not I would have left Cleveland the first time too.
Seven years couldn't get him an All Star. You don't owe
(06:42):
your first team that drafts you your entire career. College
kids now transfer two or three times. But if I
was Lebron, I would have stayed in Miami because of
Eric Spolstra, Mickey Harrison, the owner, and pat Riley, no
state tax. It's a winter league, warm weather and the
Miami Heat are always in contention for great free agents.
I would have stayed there. Now people say, well, Lebron
(07:06):
his heart was in Cleveland. No, it wasn't. He left
it a second time. He understood going to Cleveland was
good for his brand. He didn't like being a villain.
He acknowledged that later the Sports illustrated the letter, and
I'm not banging on people who leave Cleveland. Our staff
put it a list today have people that have left Cleveland.
It's a lot of Drew Carey and George Steinbrenner and
(07:28):
Steve Harvey and Paul Newman and the Kelsey's and Drew
Carey and Logan Paul and Lebron James. A lot of
people leave Cleveland. There's just you know, there's New York,
there's Chicago. In the Midwest, there's la There's London, there's
there's Cleveland's not a place you have to stay or
that is always great for commerce. It's a great place
to be born and from. Sometimes it's not a great
(07:49):
place in your prime to be living right for your career.
So I'm not banging on that. But don't tell me
that Lebron Cleveland's where his heart is. He's not going
to retire inn Akron and he left it twice. And
the reason he left it it was time he wanted
to go to La. It was good for his brand
and he could play with bigger stars because bigger stars
like Luke and Ad liked the brand. Play in Los Angeles,
(08:13):
and so I go back to this is that the downside,
and I speak from experience, to bouncing around the country
in your career. You know, if anybody's followed me Vegas, Tampa, Portland, Fox, ESPN,
the downside of that is that you know you never
live in that cul de sac where your kids grow
(08:34):
up and they have lifelong friends. I have to live
with that, the upside to moving around a lot. And
Lebron has seen this. He's overall played with better teammates.
Michael's best teammate, He's got one great one, Scottie Pippen.
Lebron's got d Wade and Kyrie Irving and Chris Bosh
and A d And Lebron's played with more great players.
(08:55):
Lebron's been to more finals. Lebron's had fewer long drought
or battles within an organization. He bails for commerce, and
that's okay. But my whole point was for athletes, we
love the perseverance. There is a beauty in the struggle.
(09:16):
They make thirty for thirties on the struggle. They're almost
all about somebody overcoming turbulence, chaos, fighting and winning. That's
where they make thirty for thirties from and sports is romanticized,
and we've always thought of Michael as part of our
(09:36):
sports love story. Lebron has simply been transactional. That's the
downside to being the best basketball opportunists ever. You played
with better teammates, you made more finals, you made a
lot more money, by the way, as a player. But
(09:58):
it's hard to fall in love with that. You fall
in love with the people in your cul de sac,
same high school, same people you grew up with. Thanksgiving
next door neighbor may just pop into the house with
a gift. You don't get that with Lebron, and you
got it with Michael. And that's really the difference. Okay,
(10:20):
So I know you're thinking, I'm obsessing about this Caleb
Williams stuff. But Jaden Daniels hit, bon Nick's hit, I'm
gonna be all over JJ McCarthy. I think Drake May's hit.
I think the JJ McCarthy Caleb Williams stories. If these
guys hit and Pettick's hits, it's a six for six
draft with quarterbacks in the first round. Never happened. And
(10:42):
I do think struggling it's red zone one day deep
balls next day, can't get into a play the next day.
It matters. My athletes say, well, you can't take everything
or anything from camp, you can take some stuff. I
remember last year j Mack, Jayden and Daniels said this
five times on the air. I'm like, generally coaches kind
(11:05):
of keep quiet to lower expectations on rookies. And we
said this four or five times. Dan Quinn Kingsbury kept
coming out publicly and going, this is unbelievable. And this
was after like three practices. You can watch those musical shows,
the Voice from American Idol years ago. You can see
great very quickly. Now it may be hard to tell
(11:27):
good to very good, or bad to disaster, but you
can see awful and you can see great very quickly.
And I don't think it takes long on a date
or a job interview, or for a young quarterback to
see trouble. Sean Payton was texting me last year in
camp and he was like, kid's gonna be good. He said,
(11:48):
give him a few starts. You know, he's got to
get up to the speed. You know, nobody starters don't
plan preseason, can't take a ton for preseason. But he
was saying the kids got it. He's going to be
good soon. And by October boon Nicks was a really
good quarterback.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
Well, it's a perfect seamless move from what Drew Brees
looked like in the pocket to bow Nicks.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Very similar.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
You know, I look at Jared Goff and then I
look at Caleb Williams. Those are two polar opposite quarterbacks,
and I just wonder. I'm starting to wonder, and again
I probably shouldn't, but this is you hammering away at
Caleb Williams every day. I'm starting to wonder, Like Ben Johnson,
great offensive mind, we don't know what he's going to
be as a head coach. Head coach is a lot
more difficult than just being an offensive coordinator. And so far,
(12:31):
you know, Rocky Start, maybe you're onto something.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I don't know. It is interesting when a guy comes
with a great reputation as a coordinator, like like, for instance,
Kyle Shanahan came in with a great reputation as a coordinator.
That's usually successful. I mean, Sean McVay came in and
people were saying, this guy's as sharp as any thirty
year old coaching person in the league, and he was
(12:56):
a home run. Now there are guys you're not sure
how it's gonna work. But I mean Ben Johnson, we
talked about him for two years. We were like, dude,
he is he is calling and dialing up misdirection trick
plays like he was. He was not your typical offensive
coordinator like he was somebody we were sort of mesmerized by.
(13:18):
We were mesmerized by Kyle shanahan. So and by the way,
when Kevin O'Connell got the job in Minnesota, he was
called the tall Sean McVay. People said, yeah, he is
really sharp. When Demiko Ryans went to Houston defensive coach,
but I can remember making a call to the Niners
and they're like, bro, he moved up our organization in
two years. He was our sharpest assistant first day on
(13:41):
the job. So I do think Ben feels like more
of a McVeigh, a shanahan, or a Kevin O'Connell. Zach
Taylor wasn't somebody. People said he was bright, but he
didn't get all the accolades of Ben Johnson or Kevin
O'Connell or Kyle shanahan. People say, you know, he's mcveigh's
got but Raheem Morris. People liked him, McVay liked him.
(14:02):
He didn't get the accolades. Ben's coming in with a
lot of momentum.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
Yeah, well, one thing we I totally forgotten to you
just said it now. So Belichick went from Drew Bled
so successful to Brady similar quarterbacks, big strapping pocket guys, right,
Andy Reid goes Donovan McNabb, who was, you know, really
really good quarterback. We forget that, and to Patrick Mahomes
similar like Ken Run but Ken Winney.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Even Alex Smith was a mover.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Alex Smith was a mover.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Jared Goff to Caleb Williams.
Speaker 5 (14:29):
You would agree those are not the same type of quarterbacks.
Coup and I just wonder if the learning curve is
a little larger for Ben than we thought it might be.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I think that's a very legitimate and a very good point.
It's like going from Matt Ryan to Caleb Williams, Jared
Goff to Caleb Williams. Is it is a total different sensibility.
And I do think Andy Reid has mastered and Nick
Siriannie's done a good job with this. You have to
let athletes be athletes. John Harbaugh has always said, there
are times Sean McDermott and the offensive court at Buffalo,
(15:00):
you gotta let Josh Allen be Josh Allen. You cannot
have a rigidity with coaching. So that's a very very
fair point the home you worked so hard for.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Herd weekdays
and neon eastern nine am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio
FS one and the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 6 (15:19):
Hey, we're Cavino and Rich Fox Sports Radio every day
five to seven pm Eastern. But here's the thing, we
never have enough time to get to everything we want
to get to.
Speaker 7 (15:28):
And that's why we have a brand new podcast called
over Promised. You see, we're having so much fun in
our two hour show. We never get to everything, honestly,
because this guy is over promising things we never have
time for. Yeah, you blubber list name in me.
Speaker 6 (15:42):
Well you know what it's called over promise. You should
be good at it because you've been over promising women
for years.
Speaker 7 (15:46):
Well, it's a Cavino and Rich after show, and we
want you to be a part of it. We're gonna
be talking sports, of course, but we're also gonna talk
life and relationships and if Rich and I are arguing
about something or we didn't have enough time. It will
continue on our after show called over Promised.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Well, if you don't get enough Covino and Rich, make
sure you check out over Promise and also Uncensored by
the way, so maybe.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
We'll go at it even a little harder.
Speaker 6 (16:08):
It's gonna be the best after show podcast of all time.
Speaker 7 (16:11):
There you go over Promising, and remember you could see
on YouTube, but definitely join us. Listen Over Promised with
Cavino and Rich on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or
wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Well, fans do it all the time. I understand it
when they do. Media does it too often. I don't
like it when they do, they pander instead of just
saying the truth out loud. Andrew Berry is a very
sharp general manager of the Cleveland Browns. I've said before,
Kevin Stefanski and Andrew Berry have overcome a lot. I
think they're both top twenty five percent of the league
(16:47):
at their respective jobs. Andrew's smart and instead of pandering,
which the media constantly does with young athletes, Andrew Berry
said what Shador Sanders did getting two speeding tickets as
a fifth round draft pick as eight quarterback was dumb here.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
He is.
Speaker 8 (17:07):
Not smart, just not smart. It's not just about, you know,
driving a car really fast, but it's about the fact
that you can endanger other people. It's about the fact
that if a deer someone you know, cuts out in
front of you, like your reaction time. It's just dangerous
and it's not something that we want our guys to
be doing. It's not something that they should be doing.
(17:29):
And the number one reason is because we don't want
some type of catastrophic accent.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
He's a fifth round pick. They haven't invested anything in him.
They could show him the door tomorrow. He's a quarterback.
The standards higher. I heard a lot of this, colin.
It's no big deal. I've got a speeding ticket. Thirty
four percent of American men have been arrested. I'm going
to hold my quarterback to a little higher standard than
the general public. Seventy four percent of Americans are overweight.
(17:58):
Should my pro athlete, I mean, bob down the street?
Is again, there are standards. I need smarter, I need
more dedicated, I need more focus than young guys getting
arrested and people overweight. That's the average citizen. Fine, this
is not an average position. Quarterbacks don't get sick days.
You wake up with the sinus infection, you're out. They do,
(18:21):
grab your helmet, let's go, let's go, get in the huddle.
Hurry up. Two speeding tickets. Fifth round quarterback is dumb.
You know, speeding ticket becomes not knowing the formation on Sunday. Like,
it's just not that difficult. Quarterbacks are supposed to put
out fires, not stardom. So Andrew Berry is speaking the
(18:42):
truth out loud. Whenever I hear this, well I've done
this or I've done that. That's not the standard I'm
shooting for quarterback NFL franchise. There's thirty two starting jobs
in the country. Like that's it. I mean, teams give
you about a year and a half and then move off.
You have to make impressions. So I just appreciate a
(19:06):
general manager going to a podium and not pandering. Just
call it out not good enough.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd weekdays
in noon Easter not a em Pacific.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
All right, here we go, it's hour two. We got news.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
J Mack.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
We started our show an hour ago talking about Caleb Williams.
So we had a bumpy ota and three straight days
he has scoffed and struggled. Today. Two picks in the
seven on seven red zone drills. So that red zone
is a place you do not make mistakes. I'm sure
it's at the front of the end zone, you throw
it low. If it's at the back of the end zone,
(19:47):
you throw it high. You don't throw picks in the
red zone. He had two today. People are getting a
little worked out, and I go ahead.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Hey, jj Watt, I'm sure you saw JJ Watt put
something on social It was alluded to your take on
Caleb Williams and you know, training camp picks and so forth.
And he kind of tried to pick it apart, and
all these people think, oh, see, coward drawing. It's no
big deal that Caleb Williams is messing up here.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Early on.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Get you guys. Everything is something, Yeah, nothing is everything.
But Jaden Daniels last year at camp, Dan Quinn and
Cliff Kingsbury. First week of camp, we're saying publicly, oh
my god, this kid is miles ahead of where rookies are.
Sean Payton is texting me during camp last year, bon
(20:38):
Nicks needs a few starts, He's gonna get good really fast.
By October, bo Nicks had a passer rating over one hundred.
Everything matters. I want to bring in the former Bears coach.
It's so apropos that we have Dave Wantet on the
show today. Six years Bears, five years Dolphins, thirty nine
years coaching football. So listen, you can give Caleb a
little bit of a pass for last year was I mean,
(21:00):
they had a three head coaches by the end of it.
But Dave, the critics of Caleb Williams said he plays
too much hero ball, he could struggle with accuracy, he
could be a little bit moody. So when I see
with Ben Johnson all of these things coming out at camp,
he's not getting plays in the footwork, he's again little
(21:22):
hero ball holding on the ball. It's something. Is I
don't want to hear. That's nothing. Isn't it something?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yes, it is. And I'll tell you this in training camp,
and you know I lived this. You know, we would
go through training camp and let's say we were struggling
running the football. We would say, well, it's just pre season,
it's just a training camp. Those things usually do show
up once you start playing for real, but it's early
and I would just say this, Hey, let's keep in
(21:51):
mind last year at training camp, he was a guy
that had a tough time getting a snap because he
was never up under. So I mean, this is how
primitive the whole pro passing game under center play action
pass was to this kid. So you know, I think
(22:11):
it's a starting point there and then and then Ben
does everything by timing. By that, I mean it's one, two,
three in the balls coming out. Now you've got to
get it obviously to the right person, or it might
be five steps one two, three, four, five, and everything
is tied together, from the ligne protection to the receiver
routes and the quarterback. So this is there is a
(22:34):
learning process here. And I would probably say the biggest
difference between here and OTAs is now there's a pass
rush and they're not hitting the quarterback, but the Bears
now are getting a lot of pressure and probably putting
the hands up, and that's a little bit different from
him because he's throwing from a different spot. You go
back to his college days, callin at USC this guy,
(22:59):
he saw more three man rush and more of a
free event defense than any quarterback in college football because
they knew it. He wouldn't sit in the pocket. He
was gonna scramble and he was gonna try to throw
it deep. So this is now all of a sudden,
it's playfake and it's coming out one, two three. This
is completely foreign to him. I think he'll be fine.
(23:21):
You know, I'm going up for a couple of days
next week, so i'll get a first hand looking and
sit Down'm gonna sit down with Ben. We'll have a
couple of good conversations.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
I want to ask you about Mike McDaniel. So I
do think in this day and age, offensive coaches have
an advantage because all the rules lean offense. So it
does help to be an offensive coach. Now that doesn't
mean Sean McDermott can't be great, but even Belichick felt
a little out of touch his last four or five
years in New England. The whole darn league now is
(23:52):
about quarterbacks and offensive coaches. And Mike McDaniel goes to
Miami and everybody loved him. He was quirky, he was unique,
and I take away now two three years later, is
a lot of sizzle, not a lot of steak. They
don't run the ball. It's a lot of clever, it's
a lot of multiple sets in motion. I would move
(24:12):
off Tyreek Hill. I would, I would get picks. I
don't think it's working in Miami. I don't think it is.
You've been there. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Well, you know, two thoughts. Number one, the Tyreek Hill situation.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
How do you have an outside shot to go to
the playoffs as a wild park, which they did last
year and some things had a fall right, but that
last game if they win and two or three things
happened and your best player, Tyreek Hill, does not go
in the game, and they asked you that at a
press conference and you don't have an answer. I'm still
(24:50):
like taking back a little bit by that response and
the other thing that bothers me. And you hit it
right on the head. You know, Chris Breer was on
my staff when I was there. He was one of
my scouts. Great. I thought it was very good. I
don't know Mike is a head coach. But the players
that they signed as free agents, the players that they drafted.
The first comment out of everybody's moth this year at
(25:12):
Miami was he's a tough guy. Oh, we've drafted the
big tackle grant out of Michigan. But you know why
he is a tough guy. It's weak, it's it's it's
you know. I hate to say this, but it's probably
too late. It's like, halfway through the season you decide
that you want to run the football. It's too late.
That's training camp and now all of a sudden they
(25:34):
want to become a tough football team. I just don't.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
It's gonna be very difficult to turn that mindset.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, you know, it's funny about guys like Kyle Shanahan,
Matt lafleur, and Sean McVay, even though they're offensive coaches,
they love the run game. They loved Shanahan and McVay
and Lafleur love power football, and so I think sometimes
I think McDaniel again, I just I understood the media
(26:01):
falling for it. But it was a lot of motion
and a lot of stuff didn't matter. But the difference
between Shanahan and McDaniel, because there's a lot of the
same offenses. Shanahan runs the ball. He loves to run
the ball, and we all know.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
The quarterback is the key to all this stuff. At
the end of the day, two is down there saying
that he hasn't patched it up yet. He has a
problem with Tyreek Hill. They haven't really bonded since the
end of the season when Tyreek Hill said he didn't
want to have any to do with the Dolphins, he
didn't like their culture. Well, I tell you what happened
(26:37):
to miniicamps, Colin, what happened to OTAs. These guys had
six months to work through that problem, that issue, whatever
it is, to what extent, I don't know. But when
you got your starting quarterback coming out during training camp
saying I got a problem with him. We're not on
the same page. That's concerns the heck out of me.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
When I watched the old Dallas Cowboy films NFL films,
and you were part of that great team with Jimmy Johnson,
and I hear Troy Aikman, Jimmy had left, Barry was there,
and and Troy is lighting guys up, and he's questioning
maturity on his teammates. He's questioning maturity, and I think
that takes That's why I like my quarterbacks sometimes to
(27:20):
be a grown up here and Shadoor Sanders gets two tickets,
And finally Andrew Berry came out and said, that's just
not smart. What do you do You don't have a
dominant quarterback, you drafted two kids, you got Kenny Pickett?
What do you do with tickets? How do you address it?
As a coach? It would be so hard for me
to watch Shador Sanders and not make judgments on him
(27:43):
based on driving ninety miles an hour as a fifth
round rookie. I would have a hard time looking at
him the same way. What do you make of what
he did? And how how much do you think that
will hurt his Cleveland experience?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I think it's going to affect him. I'll tell you why.
You know, he's a quarterback. If you're a defensive lineman,
it's still wrong, It still would concern you. But I'll
be honest with you. I've had defensive linemen that it's
kind of fallen into the same mentality. Always something you
know going on with the guy. No one ever talked
(28:19):
about it. But your quarterback is the face of the
program and everything is going to be magnified that this
kid does. And the second thing that really bothers me is,
you know and I'm sure Dion's told him this, son,
there's a reason that you fell from the first round
down to the fours and fifth round. There's a reason
for that. Okay, we cannot give these people any reason
(28:42):
to think anything negative about you except football performance. If
the football performance isn't good enough, hey, that's it. But
don't give them any other reason. And here we go.
We got a reason to just put a little doubt
in your minds, not just for Cleveland, whether with Cleveland
or anybody else. There's a lot of GMS that passed
(29:03):
on this kid, a lot of GMS, and I'm up
to to draft him. Why.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I don't know all.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
The details that this is just not good overall. I
don't think it's just another check to the box.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
So you know, I was saying this this week and
it sounds weird. I said, the most important thing when
you take a job is your quarterback. That's why Harbaugh
took the Chargers, justin Herbert. But the second most important
thing is ownership. And I said, I think I would
take the Niners job which has good ownership, and a
(29:37):
which has great ownership and a good quarterback. Brought Purty
over going to Cincinnati, where Burrow's great, but I don't
trust the scouting department. I don't trust the ownership. And
I said, I worry about Joe Burrow becoming Matt Stafford,
where we all know he's great, but there's it's a
circus of coaches. They don't draft well enough. The organization
(30:00):
at the top isn't good enough. So I saw a
story this week about Joe Burrell. He was upset about
more holdouts. How do you think the Burrow thing? How
do you think it plays out? Because Dave, he's the
best quarterback. Last year, there's an argument he was the
league's best quarterback. He was the best quarterback in the
league and did not make the playoffs. How did you
(30:23):
are you worried that he becomes Stafford in Detroit?
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yes? Absolutely, I think you have to be, you know,
because I don't know even with Henderson and their number
one draft picks hold out to right the past rusher
from Texas A and M. But I would say this.
I'm gonna just remind me of a little story. You know.
I worked for the Dolphins with coach Shula for six
weeks before Jimmy got the Dallas job, and Coach Shuler
told me Tward. I'm gonna dispute your priorities here. He said,
(30:52):
you know the different day between this NFL job and
the UH in college. And I said, no, coach, and
he said, well, I understand who the most important people
are in the NFL. Number one year owner, number two
year owner, and number three year owner.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
So that's just.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
I don't know this coach. If Coach Schuler knew anything
then and then, but that was his philosophy. But I
would say to this, Okay, I don't know. It's a distraction.
The first thought that comes to my mind is it's
a distraction, and you do not Last year it was
receivers getting them signed. And man, the quickest way to
(31:29):
be defeated. You've heard me say this when we did
shows together, is to be distracted. And right now this
football team is distracted. And you know, you know, Mike
Brown said, yeah, we'll get him signed. I mean, he's
thirty years old. You know what the market is, what
what God and what Miles Garrett, you know what the
pay this guy? Because you know the reason when you
(31:50):
have a good, a great offense like you have with
Burrow and that group of receivers, a great offense, it's
going to score points at the end of the game.
We always talk about you have to have defensive closures,
and who are your closers. It's your pass rushers, your
two pass rushers, and your two corners. They're the guys.
If you don't have them, you have a tough time
(32:13):
stopping people when they're throwing it. And you do have
the lead. That was the Dolphins problem for years with
Dan Marino. He did a lead, couldn't get off the
field on defense and they get on a score. I mean,
he's thirty years old, so you get three good years
on sim to a three year contract. This is my opinion.
Simon to a three year contract and let Burrow you know,
(32:34):
in three years. I mean, you know, I don't know.
It just bothers me that you would let this distraction.
I don't know what's going on with their number one pick,
the rookie, the defensive end. You know, language or something
I read somebody said, I don't know about these rookie
contracts anymore. You know what he's talking about with language.
But do you need these two guys in there? You
need them in there now.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And it should be noted that when Hendrickson did not play.
They're like thirty second with the pass rush, so he
is their pass rush. Finally, Dave wants that joining us.
One of my favorite people. I've said this with Nick Saban.
He's not going back to college, Dave, because with the
NIL you have to pay so much money for players
(33:16):
fifteen million. You have to go to your boosters to
get fifteen million bucks. You're not going to buy out
a coach for sixty million, pay Nick Saban seventy million,
raise fifteen There's too much money. Now, you're not going
to fire your coach. Nick's not going to coach college.
He already did great there. But I do think because
of the way Miami ended, he would take a call
(33:36):
if arch Manning went to the Saints or arch Manning
went to Cleveland, I think he would take the phone call.
Speaker 6 (33:43):
Do you.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
He would take the phone call just because you know,
everybody wants to be wanted. Everybody wants to you know,
and I can speak from Jimmy. I mean, I'm not
getting into the teams. But even when Jimmy was into
Fox several years okay, when he was done with it
all that, he called me one time in particular and
was offered so much money to run the whole thing
(34:07):
coach GM everything with the team, and he took the call,
you know, but obviously he didn't have any interest in
doing it. So I think that's where Nick's are at
right now, where Belichick's enjoying us. I saw Bill's press
conference and he's talking about going out and meeting with alumni.
How much he enjoyed going to other sports men's and
women's and meeting the student athletes. You know, it's new
(34:29):
to Bill, So he's enjoying it right now. You know Nick,
Nick's kind of going. He's traveled that road. I don't
see Nick getting back into it.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
By the way, how do you think Belichick does.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
I think he's gonna do good, you know, the biggest
and I did it with Pitt when I went back
to Pitt and I had some really good players obviously,
you know ReBs and that company. What happens, though, is
you don't have the restriction in colleagues with classes and
the time. You don't have him Bill as such a
perfectionist and you know, do it over, do it over,
(35:02):
meet more, watch more tape the time. Restrictions in college
are the number one thing that gets you when you
separate the NFL from college football, in my opinion, and
players aren't gonna have it down as pat and they're
going to make mistakes, and whether it be turning the
ball over or breaking coverages, things like that happen with
(35:23):
college kids, which all of a sudden, you might be
doing a fabulous job coaching, and you may have a
lot of talent, but they make a mistake because you
can't spend the time with them in college that you
can in the NFL. That's the hurdle he's going to
have to get over.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, that's always been my point about, Like I said this,
Bill Walsh coached in college, but the college limitations limited
how brilliant Bill Walsh could be. But when you gave
him fifty hours a week or Belichick all that extra time,
Bill's the best defensive coach ever. Bill Walsh the best
offensive coach ever. If you told Andy Read he only
(36:00):
got seventeen hours a week and he'd be pulling his
hair out. Dave Vonstadt as always coached great. Seeing you
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