Colin’s joined by Cowboys reporter Matt Mosley who is live from Cowboys training camp!
They start with the circus surrounding the contract negotiations with Micah Parsons and how it’s overshadowing the Cowboys camp (3:30). They discuss the offseason addition of George Pickens and what it will mean for the offense when he’s paired with Dak Prescott and Ceedee Lamb (5:30).
They pivot to Jerry Jones and what his presence at camp has been like at his advanced age (8:30), and evaluate whether there’s any chance for Brian Schottenheimer to succeed with Jones looming over the football operations (12:30). They discuss what the best case scenario would be for the team in 2025 (18:00) and debate whether Schottenheimer’s old school style of offensive coaching will work in the modern game (30:00).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
All right, Matt Mosley has been to a lot of
Dallas Cowboys camp. It feels like they're getting stranger every year.
Is Jerry morphing into an old Al Davis? So how
many camps have you been to?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Well, I guess you start in two thousand and three
and you never stop. You stop twenty twenty five, so
every every Cowboys camp into even the COVID that was strange.
You had to Yeah, they limited the media, so you
really had to show like all your creditionals that and really,
but you got every training camp, says two thousand and three,
(00:44):
which was in San Antonio in the album.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
So it Yeah, the Rams and mcveighor are kind of
scrimmaging with the Cowboys today, which are I think most
teams really like that over exhibition games, preseason games. So
just from are you know, you have to be careful
about OTA's and mini camps and camps. So the Mica
thing from Afar feels like a circus. But when you're
(01:09):
covering it, does it feel like a circus?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, I mean I've seen a circus and it involved
Terrell Owens and his arrival here and the cryo chamber
or whatever he had the barometric pressure that he brought out,
all the weird stuff he had that was circus like.
But yeah, this is it's a circus from the outside
(01:34):
and here because you have the star player out there.
Yesterday I got out early to practice and watched him
and he did not wear his team issued jersey, which
Schottenheimer wanted him to wear, and then they went and
talked to him and convinced him to put on his jersey.
But I'm just no matter what's happening in camp, it's
(01:56):
like looms over everything. And so I have been at
camp before when there's a big thing going on, a
huge trade. I remember the Eagles beat the Cowboys to
Ocean Wah, you know, the big the cornerback that nomde
Oceanwah one year, and boy Jerry's beating over that deal
because he's trying to get a deal. And that was
(02:17):
all happening in real time, but we watched it all happening,
and this is a little bit like that. In that
daily we're spending as much time with our cameras in
our eyes on Micah as we are what's happening on
the field. It's too bad because I think while Micah
Shodenheimer have really developed a nice rapport. I feel like
(02:40):
it's overshadowing and somewhat undermining his full operation.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Well, I mean lost in all of it is the
fact that George Pickens a really difficult guy to cover.
I mean, he's very He's a very gifted guy. Emotional,
can be juvenile, but with Ceedee Lama, George Pickens just
in pure in terms of pure talent, those are tremendously
gifted receivers. What are we getting from Matt's side of
(03:09):
the football? Football related Dak CD and Pickens?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You know, I would say, and we had a good
long visit with Pickens yesterday doing our Doomsday podcast. We
had murder and you talk about a guy who is
in heaven. It's remarkable. And he and CD together it's
the best duo they've had in many years, you know,
CD and Amari Cooper or together. I think there's the
(03:41):
potential because now CD's older and he's become a superstar,
and Pickens is in such a good headspace because he
needed to get out of Pittsburgh. It's a contract year.
It's just like the opposite of MICA's thing. Micah is
just this all this drama. George could not be happier,
(04:01):
and he believes that he's in you know, I know
we go back and forth on what Dak Prescott is,
but what Dak Prescott is is way better than anything
the Steelers have had the past three seasons, and so
pull us. Yesterday he said, I'm gonna go for twelve
hundred yards this season, and I wouldn't I wouldn't doubt
it because one thing they're trying to do is instead
(04:21):
of just throwing fades and vertical routes and go routes,
because they're hitting him on bubble screens, drags crossers. And
I even watched him yesterday there was something the Cowboys
do like on a rub route to get CD open.
I mean, I'm just telling you, this guy is the
happiest guy in camp. Like that. I came away from
(04:43):
that George Pickens interview thinking I have not seen you know,
te O is always brooding and weird, and again I
had a really rough relationship with him and all that,
but this guy is just beaming. Now. I get it.
Let's see how he is when they don't throw to
him for a whole game or something like that. But
right now, man, that those connections look good. And what
(05:05):
it's done, it's freed up whoever's going to be. Third
wide receiver Jalen Tolbert Metingo, Jalen Brooks. Like those guys
now have less pressure on them. And like yesterday, two
of those guys made like incredible circus catches. And I
just think they have less pressure because they you have
two stars and they can just go be. That's what
(05:25):
Aikman always used to tell me, is that he cared
more about the third receiver than he did the second receiver.
And and what it was is he just felt like
with Alvin Harper and Michael, they paid so much attention
that Kelvin Martin was his favorite guy because he knew
he was always going to be open. So anyway, I
would say right now, the receiving, the receivers plus the quarterback,
(05:50):
that's a very positive thing about this camp there.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You know, Matt, and I've said this is that there
we all know there's about eight really great quarterbacks in
the league, and I'd argue there's about eight great coaches,
and I would similarly say there's about eight great owners.
I definitely think twenty five years ago, Jerry was thought
of as a real maverick and a real risk taker
and willing to push the boundaries of what the NFL
(06:16):
would allow. I do think he's become a little bit
of a liability as an owner at Camp.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Does Jerry hold court?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I mean his age? Obviously, I always see him. He's
got the long sleeves and the hat. He doesn't you know,
the burning sun. But what is Camp like with Jerry
now at his age?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
How present is he same? Maybe not quite as visible
as he once was, maybe because of this Mica thing,
maybe not quite doing as much media. But hey, look
at what he did the other day, the thing with
(07:00):
for a trade Saturday. Jerry was waiting on it. Come
and get it, folks, come and get it. Gather around.
I'm gonna settle this thing down. And right now Micah
hasn't spoken again, and Jerry, basically his old response was like,
this is just a joke. This is all laughable. He's
not going anywhere, We're not trading him. And so in
some ways he's still able to again, I get it.
(07:23):
It is a circus. He likes it. And there's something
I've heard you talk about this recently. I think this
Netflix thing's coming out where they're gonna treat him like
the Jordan treatment where he gets like nine episodes. By
the way, Edwardour drops an F bomb, I'm told in
this in one of the later episodes, which really I
know bothers all of us that he's using that kind
of language. But uh, yeah, this is gonna be This
(07:46):
will be fascinating to watch how how all this plays out.
But I'm telling you, Jerry knows this thing's coming out.
And if you think he's not letting this Mica thing
ride and knows that everybody's paying all the attention to it,
but his whole thing Saturday was like I got to
get out there, calm this down and let everybody know
(08:07):
I'm still in charge. And he is now, he's still
the face of it. The only thing I would tell
you it's a little different. Guy came by yesterday and
I had a visit with Will McLay. Behind the scenes
when it comes to any sort of personnel, I mean,
there's a reason he's had opportunities to be a GM elsewhere.
I think they must take care of him huge financially. Here.
(08:29):
He's he's making tons of decisions when it comes to personnel.
You know, Steven's heavily involved in all of that. But
right now, this Micah, Jerry Stephen, it's a it's a
it's it's part of the Netflix documentary. To them, I mean,
that's what it is. And and this will end like
every one of these negotiations in that's what's funny to me.
(08:52):
And everybody jumps through these hoops and ghost he's not
gonna be here. I bet they're gonna trade him, or
I bet he's gonna This is gonna end poorly. It's
gonna end on so timber first, when he signs a
monster deal and he comes out and all is forgiven and.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
We all move on.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
There's no I don't even give it. I barely even
give it a one percent chance of him him missing
a game. There's no way he can. It's the reason
he's here. You can't really send a strong message in
a holdout if you're in your jersey at practice every day.
But what kind of hold out is that? Emmett was
a real holdout, Like nineteen ninety three, Immitt held out
(09:29):
for two games. He had the ultimate leverage because they
went one two and then they had to bow down
and give him what he wanted. So this is again,
this is a lot of this is fluff, but it's fun.
It's fun, I mean, but to Jerry, it's all it's
all like a TV show. It's just reality.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I mean, I think it's understood. Brian Schottenheimer was one
of those guys. He'd become what you don't want to
become as a coach. He'd become a bounce around the
league guy. And I've always felt that Jerry hires coaches
who feel like like Jason Garrett wouldn't have been offered
a job Mike McCarthy was on the beach. Brian Schottenheimer
(10:08):
wasn't going to get other head coaching offers. Jerry likes
to be necessary. I've always felt that it's fairly obvious that,
you know, Jimmy Johnson didn't need Jerry at the end,
and Jerry didn't like that, and Bill Parcells didn't need him.
But everybody since then chan Gaily wasn't getting a ton
of offers. So I look at Brian Schottenneimer and I've said,
(10:32):
there's an argument he'll be the weakest head coach in
the league. It used to be that owners didn't like
just paying off a staff, right, but that's when owners
were worth six hundred million. They're all worth nine billion
dollars or eight billion in up. So you're seeing Matt
(10:53):
kind of regularly and coaching staff's getting blown out after
a year. Take is by Thanksgiving, it's gonna get really turbulent,
and then Jerry's gonna go out and go and spend
big money on a coach like a like a horrorball
level guy in the market. You're smirking at this, but
I don't think the Schottenheimer thing. It feels a little
(11:16):
like Freddy Kitchens. It feels a little like Brandon Staley
where we're all going, I'm not sure. I'm trying to
think of the last coaching hire. Eberflu's had a feel
like this where we're all like, I'm not sure he
was up for a lot of coordinator jobs. Do you
think it has a chance to succeed, Shaddy.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I don't know if anybody can truly succeed the monster
of personality you're talking about, whether it Sean Pate or
you know whoever, because that's who's come up over the years.
You know it's Belichick. It's just not happening with this guy.
Because to your point, he's moved past the desperation stage.
(12:01):
Jerry in his late seventies had a point in time
where he truly thought, if I don't win another one
before I die, this is gonna this is gonna hurt,
It's gonna look bad, it's gonna affect my legacy. As
you said, Maverick. Now in the Hall of Fame, he's
moved past all of that. So never never underestimate comfort
(12:24):
to Jerry, and a coach like this gives him tremendous comfort. Now,
what he has to hope for. The huge upside to
this is that this is somehow Pete Carroll two point zero.
This guy worships Pete. He talks like him, he brings
him up constantly, get fired by him. You might want
to remember that. But the only thing I would caution
(12:45):
you on is Schottenheimer. At least it might have been
eight years ago, might have been ten years ago. He
was a hot name at one point. It just feels
so far removed. Okay, when he was with Seattle, when
he's started calling plays and eventually he wanted to he
had a different offensive philosophy than he did and they
(13:08):
had to part ways. I will say this, I do
talk to a lot of assistant coaches over the years
that have been with him, and they are like, they
can't say enough good things about him. You're right, I don't.
I mean, again, it's a crap shoot. I can tell
you what these practices look like. I would say the
(13:28):
team is responding to him in a way they did
not to McCarthy. I'm just talking about the way they
act and the energy and everything I see from practice
just completely looks like a different kind of people. But again,
you're right. Once the season starts and the problem is
where do you find the wins? You are what I
(13:49):
call the schedule savant. You commit all these things your
two things in life. You like remembering schedules, and you
like remembering depth charts, and like offensive lines, and you know,
you know, you have a great sense of the yeah,
rememory No, So you can right now go through your
mind and go all the trouble spots in this cowboy schedule,
and there's a lot of them. They've got to get
(14:10):
off to a hot start. I would just say right now,
the reason Mike is even here, and the reason Micah
hasn't just gone totally rogue is because of Seodny I
do think there's been a major connection with some of
these players, and even even pickets coming from Tomlin, who
(14:33):
he respects. He didn't say anything negative about Mike Tomlin.
But they're buying in. They're buying in in, you know,
in a big way. So, but I mean, think about
what it would take for the Cowboys to break through
this year. You've got to have two teams in your
division underperform, right, I mean, that's the that's really the
only way you break through, unless you say all three
(14:54):
teams to make the playoffs. You you have to have
two of your division rivals meat expectations. And it's hard
for me to see right now, even though it looks
like the Commanders have a little bit of chaos going
on in their camp as well. But I promise you
it's not like this.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, it's uh. I mean, I I feel like I've
come across and maybe I'm tougher on big brands, but
like Notre Dame, I didn't think when Charlie Weiss left,
I'm like, boy, I hope Marcus Freeman's ready to go.
He's blown me away with this in game coaching, his recruiting,
(15:34):
and it's always ebbs and flows like the Yankees right
now is a big brand feel like they underachieve. The
Lakers over the last seven to eight years, you know,
they had the COVID Championship underachieved. Maybe I pay so
much attention to big brands. I just I feel the
demise of big brands is usually when they get really insular.
(15:56):
And I felt it with the Lakers when they hired
Rob Polenka was Kobe Bryant agent, and they had like
Rambus and I know Kurt Rambus and love him, and
they had it became very insular. And I do believe
the Cowboys feel like they don't have enough outside influence
and outside eyes on them.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I mean, they have some good.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Players, they don't feel like Philadelphia or Detroit or Baltimore, Buffalo,
Kansas City, they Rams, they don't feel that talented. But
I think the best case scenario for Dallas, it feels
like to me, is that the offensive line, which you
know they've spent some draft capital on it, like they
haven't ignored it. If the offensive line gels and is
(16:37):
a is a notch better than I think they I
think it's very middle of the pack. Last year I
thought it was very middle of the Pack. If the
offensive line performs, Pickens and CD Lamb and Dack have
a real relationship, a real chemistry. They have a little
bit of a big play offense down the field. That's it,
and I think a lot of it. You know, there's
an argument the three things that matter in this league
(16:59):
are quarterback, coach, and the most important unit is offensive line.
It's almost impossible, Matt to have a good offensive line
and be a bad team. The top offensive lines right
now are Philly, Detroit, UH, Broncos, Sean Payton's clean it up.
It's hard to be bad with a good old line.
That's why the Packers and Patriots, like the Packers forever
(17:22):
have never had just don't have bad offensive lines. Chicago
can't get it together, but they have good players. So
I guess if the on line stabilizes because they got
some young draft picks on that, where are they That's
the best case scenario.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
To me?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
We look up and go, oh shit, the offensive lines
actually in that top eight to ten and Dak feels
really comfortable with Pickens. Is that a possibility?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
The the o line? Okay, you make a great point.
They've got a big left tackle issue right now because
they thought Tyler Geyton, who's the four first round pick
out of Oklahoma, had made a big jump through soft season.
He's hurt and I think there's a chance he misses
the first, you know, game or two of the season.
(18:07):
And they have a guy named Nate Thomas over there.
He's actually playing pretty well. They brought in Tyler Booker
from Alabama. He had lost his job early in camp.
I think they just used that to kind of motivate
him a little bit. Whatever. He's kind of filled back in.
He's okay. Tyler Smith is great player, all pro type guy.
(18:29):
Uh they you know, Terence Steel has to be better.
You're right, it could be. It could be. Okay, I'm
saying right now it's a major because they got they
got some moving parts in that area. Uh. But so,
but that guy Nate I just mentioned Nate Thomas. I
gotta say. And and I'm about to watch this joint
practice as we record this today, I'm telling you, man,
(18:51):
he is And maybe this says something about the Cowboys
edge rushers right now. He's looked really, really good. He's
in the second year at Louisiana and he got hurt
last year for the Cowboys and he stepped in out
left fackle and he looks like, hey, the starter. He
looks like the guy. So we'll see how he performs.
I would say when Micah comes back. Here's there's one
other good note where we're talking about edge rushers and
(19:13):
we're talking about offensive lines and all that. This as
a Raku, this second round pick out of Boston College
who played for Bill O'Brien, scaring like just he's a
little undersized, but man if ibra Flus is able to
work some magic with him. He's racing around dudes and Fowler,
Sam Williams, this Marshawn Neeland. There is some depth at
(19:35):
the defensive end position, and then you have osi Osa
Odigizua on the inside and this guy ties week. I
didn't think a Bill okay on defense, and hey, iber Flus,
for all the embarrassment of the hard knocks and the
season that he had, I think he's regarded as a
as a as a really respected defensive mind and a
(19:55):
defensive coach. So I think I think that I think
you hit on it. I think we got to watch
that closely, and then we got to watch that secondary
because uh, you know, Mike is not the only one
moping around here. Trayvon Diggs is doing some big time
mopen right now and they're having trouble getting his jersey
on it, and they withheld some money from him. And
(20:16):
I look over there, I see him. I mean, he
and Micah are the Mote brothers. They're just kind of
sitting over there unhappy right now. And Trayvon Diggs is
a huge part of what they need to be because
he's the takeaway guy. I'll tell you the fuller first
round pick that you remember from the Buffalo Bills, who's here,
kyer Elam. He's been great, he said, three or four picks.
(20:39):
I mean just in the past a few days, and
he has emerged and and I covered his dad abe Elam.
I mean, he's been good. But that those are the
positions that right now they're gonna be fine at linebacker.
Eventually they're good on the defensive line, major question mark
on the back end. And you brought it up. The
offensive line will probably tell the story better way better
(21:01):
options at running back, I will say that, And I'm
not saying to blow you away options, but fun rookies,
like two fun rookies. One Jayden Blues extremely fast at
the University of Texas, MafA, who's a bigger dude who
they picked later. And then and then Juvonte Williams is
going to start for him, and he looks fine. He
(21:21):
looks fine. I mean, they've they got several backs, a
couple of backs, and you know Sanders and Williams who
were good about two or three years ago. But I
think they are to be better at running back. I
do think that. And this guy will run the football, Okay,
the last guy did not like to run the football.
And right now, teams that are committed to running I
had Super Bowl champs. Teams that commit to it. Good
(21:43):
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Speaker 1 (23:09):
You'll find that most like Baltimore runs the ball. Buffalo's
better since they got James Cook. Even the McVeigh and
Kyle Shanahan, they're seen as offensive guys. Lafleor loves to
run the ball. Most of the really good offensive coaches
are not Mike Martz like. They want to run the football.
(23:30):
The young coaches right now. What I worry about Schottenneimer,
and I've said this, I think not that analytics are
a huge part of football like baseball, but I do think,
and you're noticing it in the NFL, that the quality
of offensive coaching coaching is smarter. So it used to be.
(23:52):
For instance, if a quarterback failed he got drafted and
failed with his first team, he was screwed. Drew Brees
was an outlier. Now you're seeing Baker, Gino Darnald, you're
seeing multiple quarterbacks. How is it they bounced and they
work for a third team or a fourth team. And
the answer is because there's so many good young offensive
(24:15):
coaches out there that it used to be a defensive
league where if you didn't work with a team that
drafted you, you'd probably end up in a defensive coach
and a defensive culture. And if he did have a
good offensive coordinator. He was gone after a year to
get ahead job. I think there are so many smart
offensive coaches that you're seeing all these rebound careers with
(24:38):
multiple guys. I mean, like Darnald Gino, I mean especially
Baker Mayfield. Baker like there are saturdays. Hell, he looks
like a pro bowler in the NFC. So what I
worry about Schottenheimer. He's an old school offensive coordinator, not
as much motion, not as many sets, and I do
worry that he's on the right side of it. He's
an offensive coach, but is the a little bit of
(25:00):
an outdated offensive coach because Lafleur, McVeigh, Shanahan, they feel
very current, very very Schottenheimer feels a little bit like
like the offensive game got a little sophisticated very quickly,
and he didn't quite keep up. That's my take.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I agree with they weren't serious when you have these
big time off its coordinators. And Jerry hated the thought
the guy in Chicago. Now that the fact that he
got whatever he got thirteen million that second Jerry, it's
sick of Jim to have a first year coach. He
(25:43):
cannot he can understand that one thing I'll say on
Shody tons of emotion out here. I mean that may
not have been what he I'd have to look back
and really study what he was doing at Seattle at
other places, they are so much more than with McCarthy.
You wouldn't believe it. Of Ike got candy. And in
the past they tried to you know where it was
(26:03):
follwered or wherever they brought in. They love, they love
talking about gadget guys. Oh, we're gonna try to get
this guy a lot of touches. They never could do it.
They never could stomach because they got the game, they
didn't want to do it, and the only thing they
had was like one jet sweep. They had nothing, they
had no things to go to. I'm telling you, we're
seeing tons of motion. So I think he studied up
(26:23):
on Shannahn and McVeigh. And of course we'll see McVeigh
his team here today. I'll be see the two teams
against each other. But when I watched this offense and
you can hear they started do massive music behind us
as to get ready for practice. But tons, tons, more
eye candy, more motion, and I've seen more rub routes
(26:46):
in this camp. That I've seen in the last ten
years combine and when it happens, and it happens right,
you'll see Shady come racing down the field to celebrate.
That's the only thing I would say, here's the xpact.
I don't think you're totally wrong in thinking I don't
think it was that rate of a higher. I'm not
(27:07):
that inspired by it. But I've I've almost never seen
a guy this happy and this like like he he's
been waiting for this his whole life. He's got his
father's legacy can think about, and he's emulating a pretty
good guy. He's he's trying to be the next Pete Carroll,
(27:29):
and that's not a bad guy to emulate. I mean,
there's only probably one because you saw him. He's seventy
five years old and he's still out running sprints and
he's throwing. He's a fun guy, and he think about
the way they think of the Raiders right now. In
one Higher, in one Overnight Higher. I saw somebody did
the other day. They said the best coaching staffs in
the deal, and I expected, like usual, the Raiders to
(27:51):
be like the thirtieth best, right because you're just like,
that's the Raiders and they were like the sixth or
seventh best coaching staff. It's it's suddenly he gave them credibility.
It does stink for Cowboys fans that Jerry didn't even
consider that the thought of bringing in a Belichickian, Pete Carroll,
(28:11):
monster coach, monster credentials. You know, even the Cohen, even
the Johnston, even these guys that were young, inspiring offensive coaches.
He didn't even gabble. He didn't even look at it.
It's because at the end of the day, let's come
back to what it is, he doesn't respect coaches and
(28:33):
he never has. You just ran over it, Jen Gaily,
Dave Campo. You know, McCarthy was a retread yet as
he had a Super Bowl, but he grown extremely stale
with Green Bay. He wants comfort, he wants cover. Jason
Garrett was the ultimate yes man. Okay, I like Jajason
got along with him great. But I mean, you can't
(28:55):
find a bigger yes man than Jason Garrett, So I
will I'll just say this, He's managed a Micah thing
extremely well. I like to look and see how I
think head coaches gms are handling volatile, weird situations and
(29:15):
in this case. Shot he's been beautiful with He's been
beautiful because he and Micah talk on the phone. They
have a separate relationship. Shot. He's not trying to walk
that fine life. Shody is identifying and supporting the player
over Jerry. Garrett wouldn't have done that. Mccarkey wouldn't have
(29:35):
done that. Campo, Sorry, Dave, here's this because I love Campo.
None of those guys would have done it. They would
have said, Jerry, how do you want me to play
this shot? He's handling it in his own way, which
is to favor the player over management. And I don't
think I mean, I think that makes it look pretty
good here, at least in my mind.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
All Right, get out there, rams, cowboys, Matt Mo. You
have practice to cover. We appreciate thirty minutes, buddy, get
out there and do your job.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I'll do it. And it's just how I like to
cover practice. I like to get that cat fun back.
And this is I find that people respect me more
when I when I give this up. All right, this
is how I'll be today. All right, appreciate you having
me
Speaker 1 (30:22):
The on
All right, Matt Mosley has been to a lot of
Dallas Cowboys camp. It feels like they're getting stranger every year.
Is Jerry morphing into an old Al Davis? So how
many camps have you been to?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Well, I guess you start in two thousand and three
and you never stop. You stop twenty twenty five, so
every every Cowboys camp into even the COVID that was strange.
You had to Yeah, they limited the media, so you
really had to show like all your creditionals that and really,
but you got every training camp, says two thousand and three,
(00:44):
which was in San Antonio in the album.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
So it Yeah, the Rams and mcveighor are kind of
scrimmaging with the Cowboys today, which are I think most
teams really like that over exhibition games, preseason games. So
just from are you know, you have to be careful
about OTA's and mini camps and camps. So the Mica
thing from Afar feels like a circus. But when you're
(01:09):
covering it, does it feel like a circus?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, I mean I've seen a circus and it involved
Terrell Owens and his arrival here and the cryo chamber
or whatever he had the barometric pressure that he brought out,
all the weird stuff he had that was circus like.
But yeah, this is it's a circus from the outside
(01:34):
and here because you have the star player out there.
Yesterday I got out early to practice and watched him
and he did not wear his team issued jersey, which
Schottenheimer wanted him to wear, and then they went and
talked to him and convinced him to put on his jersey.
But I'm just no matter what's happening in camp, it's
(01:56):
like looms over everything. And so I have been at
camp before when there's a big thing going on, a
huge trade. I remember the Eagles beat the Cowboys to
Ocean Wah, you know, the big the cornerback that nomde
Oceanwah one year, and boy Jerry's beating over that deal
because he's trying to get a deal. And that was
(02:17):
all happening in real time, but we watched it all happening,
and this is a little bit like that. In that
daily we're spending as much time with our cameras in
our eyes on Micah as we are what's happening on
the field. It's too bad because I think while Micah
Shodenheimer have really developed a nice rapport. I feel like
(02:40):
it's overshadowing and somewhat undermining his full operation.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Well, I mean lost in all of it is the
fact that George Pickens a really difficult guy to cover.
I mean, he's very He's a very gifted guy. Emotional,
can be juvenile, but with Ceedee Lama, George Pickens just
in pure in terms of pure talent, those are tremendously
gifted receivers. What are we getting from Matt's side of
(03:09):
the football? Football related Dak CD and Pickens?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You know, I would say, and we had a good
long visit with Pickens yesterday doing our Doomsday podcast. We
had murder and you talk about a guy who is
in heaven. It's remarkable. And he and CD together it's
the best duo they've had in many years, you know,
CD and Amari Cooper or together. I think there's the
(03:41):
potential because now CD's older and he's become a superstar,
and Pickens is in such a good headspace because he
needed to get out of Pittsburgh. It's a contract year.
It's just like the opposite of MICA's thing. Micah is
just this all this drama. George could not be happier,
(04:01):
and he believes that he's in you know, I know
we go back and forth on what Dak Prescott is,
but what Dak Prescott is is way better than anything
the Steelers have had the past three seasons, and so
pull us. Yesterday he said, I'm gonna go for twelve
hundred yards this season, and I wouldn't I wouldn't doubt
it because one thing they're trying to do is instead
(04:21):
of just throwing fades and vertical routes and go routes,
because they're hitting him on bubble screens, drags crossers. And
I even watched him yesterday there was something the Cowboys
do like on a rub route to get CD open.
I mean, I'm just telling you, this guy is the
happiest guy in camp. Like that. I came away from
(04:43):
that George Pickens interview thinking I have not seen you know,
te O is always brooding and weird, and again I
had a really rough relationship with him and all that,
but this guy is just beaming. Now. I get it.
Let's see how he is when they don't throw to
him for a whole game or something like that. But
right now, man, that those connections look good. And what
(05:05):
it's done, it's freed up whoever's going to be. Third
wide receiver Jalen Tolbert Metingo, Jalen Brooks. Like those guys
now have less pressure on them. And like yesterday, two
of those guys made like incredible circus catches. And I
just think they have less pressure because they you have
two stars and they can just go be. That's what
(05:25):
Aikman always used to tell me, is that he cared
more about the third receiver than he did the second receiver.
And and what it was is he just felt like
with Alvin Harper and Michael, they paid so much attention
that Kelvin Martin was his favorite guy because he knew
he was always going to be open. So anyway, I
would say right now, the receiving, the receivers plus the quarterback,
(05:50):
that's a very positive thing about this camp there.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You know, Matt, and I've said this is that there
we all know there's about eight really great quarterbacks in
the league, and I'd argue there's about eight great coaches,
and I would similarly say there's about eight great owners.
I definitely think twenty five years ago, Jerry was thought
of as a real maverick and a real risk taker
and willing to push the boundaries of what the NFL
(06:16):
would allow. I do think he's become a little bit
of a liability as an owner at Camp.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Does Jerry hold court?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I mean his age? Obviously, I always see him. He's
got the long sleeves and the hat. He doesn't you know,
the burning sun. But what is Camp like with Jerry
now at his age?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
How present is he same? Maybe not quite as visible
as he once was, maybe because of this Mica thing,
maybe not quite doing as much media. But hey, look
at what he did the other day, the thing with
(07:00):
for a trade Saturday. Jerry was waiting on it. Come
and get it, folks, come and get it. Gather around.
I'm gonna settle this thing down. And right now Micah
hasn't spoken again, and Jerry, basically his old response was like,
this is just a joke. This is all laughable. He's
not going anywhere, We're not trading him. And so in
some ways he's still able to again, I get it.
(07:23):
It is a circus. He likes it. And there's something
I've heard you talk about this recently. I think this
Netflix thing's coming out where they're gonna treat him like
the Jordan treatment where he gets like nine episodes. By
the way, Edwardour drops an F bomb, I'm told in
this in one of the later episodes, which really I
know bothers all of us that he's using that kind
of language. But uh, yeah, this is gonna be This
(07:46):
will be fascinating to watch how how all this plays out.
But I'm telling you, Jerry knows this thing's coming out.
And if you think he's not letting this Mica thing
ride and knows that everybody's paying all the attention to it,
but his whole thing Saturday was like I got to
get out there, calm this down and let everybody know
(08:07):
I'm still in charge. And he is now, he's still
the face of it. The only thing I would tell
you it's a little different. Guy came by yesterday and
I had a visit with Will McLay. Behind the scenes
when it comes to any sort of personnel, I mean,
there's a reason he's had opportunities to be a GM elsewhere.
I think they must take care of him huge financially. Here.
(08:29):
He's he's making tons of decisions when it comes to personnel.
You know, Steven's heavily involved in all of that. But
right now, this Micah, Jerry Stephen, it's a it's a
it's it's part of the Netflix documentary. To them, I mean,
that's what it is. And and this will end like
every one of these negotiations in that's what's funny to me.
(08:52):
And everybody jumps through these hoops and ghost he's not
gonna be here. I bet they're gonna trade him, or
I bet he's gonna This is gonna end poorly. It's
gonna end on so timber first, when he signs a
monster deal and he comes out and all is forgiven and.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
We all move on.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
There's no I don't even give it. I barely even
give it a one percent chance of him him missing
a game. There's no way he can. It's the reason
he's here. You can't really send a strong message in
a holdout if you're in your jersey at practice every day.
But what kind of hold out is that? Emmett was
a real holdout, Like nineteen ninety three, Immitt held out
(09:29):
for two games. He had the ultimate leverage because they
went one two and then they had to bow down
and give him what he wanted. So this is again,
this is a lot of this is fluff, but it's fun.
It's fun, I mean, but to Jerry, it's all it's
all like a TV show. It's just reality.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I mean, I think it's understood. Brian Schottenheimer was one
of those guys. He'd become what you don't want to
become as a coach. He'd become a bounce around the
league guy. And I've always felt that Jerry hires coaches
who feel like like Jason Garrett wouldn't have been offered
a job Mike McCarthy was on the beach. Brian Schottenheimer
(10:08):
wasn't going to get other head coaching offers. Jerry likes
to be necessary. I've always felt that it's fairly obvious that,
you know, Jimmy Johnson didn't need Jerry at the end,
and Jerry didn't like that, and Bill Parcells didn't need him.
But everybody since then chan Gaily wasn't getting a ton
of offers. So I look at Brian Schottenneimer and I've said,
(10:32):
there's an argument he'll be the weakest head coach in
the league. It used to be that owners didn't like
just paying off a staff, right, but that's when owners
were worth six hundred million. They're all worth nine billion
dollars or eight billion in up. So you're seeing Matt
(10:53):
kind of regularly and coaching staff's getting blown out after
a year. Take is by Thanksgiving, it's gonna get really turbulent,
and then Jerry's gonna go out and go and spend
big money on a coach like a like a horrorball
level guy in the market. You're smirking at this, but
I don't think the Schottenheimer thing. It feels a little
(11:16):
like Freddy Kitchens. It feels a little like Brandon Staley
where we're all going, I'm not sure. I'm trying to
think of the last coaching hire. Eberflu's had a feel
like this where we're all like, I'm not sure he
was up for a lot of coordinator jobs. Do you
think it has a chance to succeed, Shaddy.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I don't know if anybody can truly succeed the monster
of personality you're talking about, whether it Sean Pate or
you know whoever, because that's who's come up over the years.
You know it's Belichick. It's just not happening with this guy.
Because to your point, he's moved past the desperation stage.
(12:01):
Jerry in his late seventies had a point in time
where he truly thought, if I don't win another one
before I die, this is gonna this is gonna hurt,
It's gonna look bad, it's gonna affect my legacy. As
you said, Maverick. Now in the Hall of Fame, he's
moved past all of that. So never never underestimate comfort
(12:24):
to Jerry, and a coach like this gives him tremendous comfort. Now,
what he has to hope for. The huge upside to
this is that this is somehow Pete Carroll two point zero.
This guy worships Pete. He talks like him, he brings
him up constantly, get fired by him. You might want
to remember that. But the only thing I would caution
(12:45):
you on is Schottenheimer. At least it might have been
eight years ago, might have been ten years ago. He
was a hot name at one point. It just feels
so far removed. Okay, when he was with Seattle, when
he's started calling plays and eventually he wanted to he
had a different offensive philosophy than he did and they
(13:08):
had to part ways. I will say this, I do
talk to a lot of assistant coaches over the years
that have been with him, and they are like, they
can't say enough good things about him. You're right, I don't.
I mean, again, it's a crap shoot. I can tell
you what these practices look like. I would say the
(13:28):
team is responding to him in a way they did
not to McCarthy. I'm just talking about the way they
act and the energy and everything I see from practice
just completely looks like a different kind of people. But again,
you're right. Once the season starts and the problem is
where do you find the wins? You are what I
(13:49):
call the schedule savant. You commit all these things your
two things in life. You like remembering schedules, and you
like remembering depth charts, and like offensive lines, and you know,
you know, you have a great sense of the yeah,
rememory No, So you can right now go through your
mind and go all the trouble spots in this cowboy schedule,
and there's a lot of them. They've got to get
(14:10):
off to a hot start. I would just say right now,
the reason Mike is even here, and the reason Micah
hasn't just gone totally rogue is because of Seodny I
do think there's been a major connection with some of
these players, and even even pickets coming from Tomlin, who
(14:33):
he respects. He didn't say anything negative about Mike Tomlin.
But they're buying in. They're buying in in, you know,
in a big way. So, but I mean, think about
what it would take for the Cowboys to break through
this year. You've got to have two teams in your
division underperform, right, I mean, that's the that's really the
only way you break through, unless you say all three
(14:54):
teams to make the playoffs. You you have to have
two of your division rivals meat expectations. And it's hard
for me to see right now, even though it looks
like the Commanders have a little bit of chaos going
on in their camp as well. But I promise you
it's not like this.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, it's uh. I mean, I I feel like I've
come across and maybe I'm tougher on big brands, but
like Notre Dame, I didn't think when Charlie Weiss left,
I'm like, boy, I hope Marcus Freeman's ready to go.
He's blown me away with this in game coaching, his recruiting,
(15:34):
and it's always ebbs and flows like the Yankees right
now is a big brand feel like they underachieve. The
Lakers over the last seven to eight years, you know,
they had the COVID Championship underachieved. Maybe I pay so
much attention to big brands. I just I feel the
demise of big brands is usually when they get really insular.
(15:56):
And I felt it with the Lakers when they hired
Rob Polenka was Kobe Bryant agent, and they had like
Rambus and I know Kurt Rambus and love him, and
they had it became very insular. And I do believe
the Cowboys feel like they don't have enough outside influence
and outside eyes on them.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I mean, they have some good.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Players, they don't feel like Philadelphia or Detroit or Baltimore, Buffalo,
Kansas City, they Rams, they don't feel that talented. But
I think the best case scenario for Dallas, it feels
like to me, is that the offensive line, which you
know they've spent some draft capital on it, like they
haven't ignored it. If the offensive line gels and is
(16:37):
a is a notch better than I think they I
think it's very middle of the pack. Last year I
thought it was very middle of the Pack. If the
offensive line performs, Pickens and CD Lamb and Dack have
a real relationship, a real chemistry. They have a little
bit of a big play offense down the field. That's it,
and I think a lot of it. You know, there's
an argument the three things that matter in this league
(16:59):
are quarterback, coach, and the most important unit is offensive line.
It's almost impossible, Matt to have a good offensive line
and be a bad team. The top offensive lines right
now are Philly, Detroit, UH, Broncos, Sean Payton's clean it up.
It's hard to be bad with a good old line.
That's why the Packers and Patriots, like the Packers forever
(17:22):
have never had just don't have bad offensive lines. Chicago
can't get it together, but they have good players. So
I guess if the on line stabilizes because they got
some young draft picks on that, where are they That's
the best case scenario.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
To me?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
We look up and go, oh shit, the offensive lines
actually in that top eight to ten and Dak feels
really comfortable with Pickens. Is that a possibility?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
The the o line? Okay, you make a great point.
They've got a big left tackle issue right now because
they thought Tyler Geyton, who's the four first round pick
out of Oklahoma, had made a big jump through soft season.
He's hurt and I think there's a chance he misses
the first, you know, game or two of the season.
(18:07):
And they have a guy named Nate Thomas over there.
He's actually playing pretty well. They brought in Tyler Booker
from Alabama. He had lost his job early in camp.
I think they just used that to kind of motivate
him a little bit. Whatever. He's kind of filled back in.
He's okay. Tyler Smith is great player, all pro type guy.
(18:29):
Uh they you know, Terence Steel has to be better.
You're right, it could be. It could be. Okay, I'm
saying right now it's a major because they got they
got some moving parts in that area. Uh. But so,
but that guy Nate I just mentioned Nate Thomas. I
gotta say. And and I'm about to watch this joint
practice as we record this today, I'm telling you, man,
(18:51):
he is And maybe this says something about the Cowboys
edge rushers right now. He's looked really, really good. He's
in the second year at Louisiana and he got hurt
last year for the Cowboys and he stepped in out
left fackle and he looks like, hey, the starter. He
looks like the guy. So we'll see how he performs.
I would say when Micah comes back. Here's there's one
other good note where we're talking about edge rushers and
(19:13):
we're talking about offensive lines and all that. This as
a Raku, this second round pick out of Boston College
who played for Bill O'Brien, scaring like just he's a
little undersized, but man if ibra Flus is able to
work some magic with him. He's racing around dudes and Fowler,
Sam Williams, this Marshawn Neeland. There is some depth at
(19:35):
the defensive end position, and then you have osi Osa
Odigizua on the inside and this guy ties week. I
didn't think a Bill okay on defense, and hey, iber Flus,
for all the embarrassment of the hard knocks and the
season that he had, I think he's regarded as a
as a as a really respected defensive mind and a
(19:55):
defensive coach. So I think I think that I think
you hit on it. I think we got to watch
that closely, and then we got to watch that secondary
because uh, you know, Mike is not the only one
moping around here. Trayvon Diggs is doing some big time
mopen right now and they're having trouble getting his jersey
on it, and they withheld some money from him. And
(20:16):
I look over there, I see him. I mean, he
and Micah are the Mote brothers. They're just kind of
sitting over there unhappy right now. And Trayvon Diggs is
a huge part of what they need to be because
he's the takeaway guy. I'll tell you the fuller first
round pick that you remember from the Buffalo Bills, who's here,
kyer Elam. He's been great, he said, three or four picks.
(20:39):
I mean just in the past a few days, and
he has emerged and and I covered his dad abe Elam.
I mean, he's been good. But that those are the
positions that right now they're gonna be fine at linebacker.
Eventually they're good on the defensive line, major question mark
on the back end. And you brought it up. The
offensive line will probably tell the story better way better
(21:01):
options at running back, I will say that, And I'm
not saying to blow you away options, but fun rookies,
like two fun rookies. One Jayden Blues extremely fast at
the University of Texas, MafA, who's a bigger dude who
they picked later. And then and then Juvonte Williams is
going to start for him, and he looks fine. He
(21:21):
looks fine. I mean, they've they got several backs, a
couple of backs, and you know Sanders and Williams who
were good about two or three years ago. But I
think they are to be better at running back. I
do think that. And this guy will run the football, Okay,
the last guy did not like to run the football.
And right now, teams that are committed to running I
had Super Bowl champs. Teams that commit to it. Good
(21:43):
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Speaker 1 (23:09):
You'll find that most like Baltimore runs the ball. Buffalo's
better since they got James Cook. Even the McVeigh and
Kyle Shanahan, they're seen as offensive guys. Lafleor loves to
run the ball. Most of the really good offensive coaches
are not Mike Martz like. They want to run the football.
(23:30):
The young coaches right now. What I worry about Schottenneimer,
and I've said this, I think not that analytics are
a huge part of football like baseball, but I do think,
and you're noticing it in the NFL, that the quality
of offensive coaching coaching is smarter. So it used to be.
(23:52):
For instance, if a quarterback failed he got drafted and
failed with his first team, he was screwed. Drew Brees
was an outlier. Now you're seeing Baker, Gino Darnald, you're
seeing multiple quarterbacks. How is it they bounced and they
work for a third team or a fourth team. And
the answer is because there's so many good young offensive
(24:15):
coaches out there that it used to be a defensive
league where if you didn't work with a team that
drafted you, you'd probably end up in a defensive coach
and a defensive culture. And if he did have a
good offensive coordinator. He was gone after a year to
get ahead job. I think there are so many smart
offensive coaches that you're seeing all these rebound careers with
(24:38):
multiple guys. I mean, like Darnald Gino, I mean especially
Baker Mayfield. Baker like there are saturdays. Hell, he looks
like a pro bowler in the NFC. So what I
worry about Schottenheimer. He's an old school offensive coordinator, not
as much motion, not as many sets, and I do
worry that he's on the right side of it. He's
an offensive coach, but is the a little bit of
(25:00):
an outdated offensive coach because Lafleur, McVeigh, Shanahan, they feel
very current, very very Schottenheimer feels a little bit like
like the offensive game got a little sophisticated very quickly,
and he didn't quite keep up. That's my take.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I agree with they weren't serious when you have these
big time off its coordinators. And Jerry hated the thought
the guy in Chicago. Now that the fact that he
got whatever he got thirteen million that second Jerry, it's
sick of Jim to have a first year coach. He
(25:43):
cannot he can understand that one thing I'll say on
Shody tons of emotion out here. I mean that may
not have been what he I'd have to look back
and really study what he was doing at Seattle at
other places, they are so much more than with McCarthy.
You wouldn't believe it. Of Ike got candy. And in
the past they tried to you know where it was
(26:03):
follwered or wherever they brought in. They love, they love
talking about gadget guys. Oh, we're gonna try to get
this guy a lot of touches. They never could do it.
They never could stomach because they got the game, they
didn't want to do it, and the only thing they
had was like one jet sweep. They had nothing, they
had no things to go to. I'm telling you, we're
seeing tons of motion. So I think he studied up
(26:23):
on Shannahn and McVeigh. And of course we'll see McVeigh
his team here today. I'll be see the two teams
against each other. But when I watched this offense and
you can hear they started do massive music behind us
as to get ready for practice. But tons, tons, more
eye candy, more motion, and I've seen more rub routes
(26:46):
in this camp. That I've seen in the last ten
years combine and when it happens, and it happens right,
you'll see Shady come racing down the field to celebrate.
That's the only thing I would say, here's the xpact.
I don't think you're totally wrong in thinking I don't
think it was that rate of a higher. I'm not
(27:07):
that inspired by it. But I've I've almost never seen
a guy this happy and this like like he he's
been waiting for this his whole life. He's got his
father's legacy can think about, and he's emulating a pretty
good guy. He's he's trying to be the next Pete Carroll,
(27:29):
and that's not a bad guy to emulate. I mean,
there's only probably one because you saw him. He's seventy
five years old and he's still out running sprints and
he's throwing. He's a fun guy, and he think about
the way they think of the Raiders right now. In
one Higher, in one Overnight Higher. I saw somebody did
the other day. They said the best coaching staffs in
the deal, and I expected, like usual, the Raiders to
(27:51):
be like the thirtieth best, right because you're just like,
that's the Raiders and they were like the sixth or
seventh best coaching staff. It's it's suddenly he gave them credibility.
It does stink for Cowboys fans that Jerry didn't even
consider that the thought of bringing in a Belichickian, Pete Carroll,
(28:11):
monster coach, monster credentials. You know, even the Cohen, even
the Johnston, even these guys that were young, inspiring offensive coaches.
He didn't even gabble. He didn't even look at it.
It's because at the end of the day, let's come
back to what it is, he doesn't respect coaches and
(28:33):
he never has. You just ran over it, Jen Gaily,
Dave Campo. You know, McCarthy was a retread yet as
he had a Super Bowl, but he grown extremely stale
with Green Bay. He wants comfort, he wants cover. Jason
Garrett was the ultimate yes man. Okay, I like Jajason
got along with him great. But I mean, you can't
(28:55):
find a bigger yes man than Jason Garrett, So I
will I'll just say this, He's managed a Micah thing
extremely well. I like to look and see how I
think head coaches gms are handling volatile, weird situations and
(29:15):
in this case. Shot he's been beautiful with He's been
beautiful because he and Micah talk on the phone. They
have a separate relationship. Shot. He's not trying to walk
that fine life. Shody is identifying and supporting the player
over Jerry. Garrett wouldn't have done that. Mccarkey wouldn't have
(29:35):
done that. Campo, Sorry, Dave, here's this because I love Campo.
None of those guys would have done it. They would
have said, Jerry, how do you want me to play
this shot? He's handling it in his own way, which
is to favor the player over management. And I don't
think I mean, I think that makes it look pretty
good here, at least in my mind.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
All Right, get out there, rams, cowboys, Matt Mo. You
have practice to cover. We appreciate thirty minutes, buddy, get
out there and do your job.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I'll do it. And it's just how I like to
cover practice. I like to get that cat fun back.
And this is I find that people respect me more
when I when I give this up. All right, this
is how I'll be today. All right, appreciate you having
me
Speaker 1 (30:22):
The on
Hosts And Creators
Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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