September 17, 2025 • 40 mins
Colin is joined by college football guru Josh Pate to talk ball.
They start with UCLA being over their skis in the Big Ten and why it’s not a good job for a head coach (3:45), and debate which schools are truly the best five college football programs (9:00).
Colin argues that Michigan is viewed as a better program than it actually is, believes the program will decline in the coming years, and they preview their upcoming game against Nebraska (12:15).
They debate whether Lincoln Riley at USC and Brent Venables at Oklahoma will work long term (27:30), and Colin expresses his surprise that Texas A&M beat Notre Dame (33:30).
Finally, they discuss whether Brian Kelly is the right coach for LSU (44:00).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
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go download the Game Time app today. All right, Josh
Pate joining us. He cuts through like nobody else with
college football. Obviously, host of Josh Page's College Football Show,
(01:07):
which is fantastic. So I got into this discussion the
other day. I'm known as a USC Homer so and
I lean into it because I think it's obnoxious and funny.
But whatever, we all have our team or our region
or whatever. And I was talking to a friend the
other day who's a UCLA Bruin, and I said, I
just don't think. I don't think UCLA is a good job.
(01:30):
I think it's one of those where it sounds like
it should be good. You're like, oh, there's a lot
of money in bel Air, but it's an international university.
NIL punishes college football programs. You can make. You can
be a top ten college basketball program with about four
million a year in college basketball if you're not at
(01:51):
sixteen to eighteen, which is where USC's at now. I mean,
there's a reason USC's defensive front looks better. Bought a
lot of it. So my take with UCLA is they
are bottom half of the Big ten in NIL because
it's in bel Air, Josh, you can't really and it's
(02:11):
a public university. Your coaches have to drive forty five
minutes or an hour to work. I don't think it's
a good job. I do not think it's a good job.
I would if I was an agent, I would not
send my best clients there. I don't think it has
a huge brand. You tell me you live in Nashville.
I spent eight nine years in Los Angeles. I don't
(02:34):
think it's a good I don't think it's a good
I don't think it's a top thirty college football job.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I would go further. I don't think it's top forty five.
Like you're talking about multiple G five jobs that are
better than UCLA and I. When we say that, by
the way, I know people who don't live in this
world and who don't immerse themselves in it, they almost
think you have an ax to grind, like you just
talked about, Oh, that's USCO morism. Well, dude, I grew
up in Harris County, Georgia, so I got no dog
(03:01):
in this fight. I'm just telling you what I perceive.
But I could be wrong. So then you ask around
and you ask forget agents. Yet of course agents are
echoing that to me, Colin. I just go to coaches.
When I see a coach's name in the running for
these jobs, I'll just go to the coach and I'll
ask him, and they'll usually shoot straight with you. And
I just think, probably even I've been a little taken
(03:23):
back by how many people who in a previous lifetime,
we would look at it the job they're at, and
you would think, oh, it's a slam dunk. Yeh, he
can get the UCLA job. He's going to take it.
That in the modern day look at it and say, dude,
there's no way. And we're not just talking about head coaches,
like I'm telling you, there are coordinators out there. There
(03:44):
are pretty high level coordinators out there that would not
leave where they are right now for the UCLA job.
And you mentioned it's bottom half of the big ten.
Well that's in a vacuum. So yes, it's bottom half
of big ten in vacuum. But then like you said,
when you factor in, hey, if you take the Indiana job,
I mean you could do like Signity and blow it up.
But even if it's not what Signitti has made it,
(04:06):
you're going to live in Bloomington, Indiana very affordable. So
you're asking me to go take a bottom half job.
You're going asking me to be distant second in my
own town. You're asking me to be second on my
own campus. When it comes to the athletic department, You're
asking me to take over a place where the nil
infrastructure is really discombobulated. They're not fractionally as put together
(04:26):
in football as they are for basketball. There and you're
asking me, by the way, to compete with superpower programs
like Oregon and Ohio State and Penn State and Michigan.
There's just I don't have much good to say about it.
I wish I was wrong. I wish you were wrong.
We're not.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, I mean I and the football stadium's forty five
minutes off campus. I think there was a time when
you could you could get away. There was a time
when it was Terry Donahue and then Dick for Meal
and it would get on ABC and it was part
of the Pack twelve, and there was something to be
said about you're playing in the Rose Bowl and the
(05:04):
weather was cold everywhere else, and now you're like, oh,
it's warm in UCLA. Like I could see a quarterback
or wide receivers, and they do put guys in the NFL.
But I think there was a moment when Chip Kelly
said I'd rather go be a coordinator in a Big
Ten school than the coach of UCLA. And to me,
it's like, oh, that's the tipping point, because Chip knows
(05:26):
you know Chip, Chip's coached at Oregon, He's coached at
the NFL. He's like, no, yeah, I'm and I know Chip.
Chip was at my sixtieth birthday party. Chip likes La.
Chip and his wife love La. It's not that he's
not an outsider. So you know, it's funny. I said
years ago, I felt this. I don't feel it anymore.
(05:48):
I said years ago, I thought the Texas job, I said,
take away the top three quarterbacks in the NFL, whoever
has those, and they're in their prime. Those are the
best football jobs America. Kansas City, Buffalo, Baltimore. You know,
those are the best jobs. You have an NFL pension,
your coaches don't leave, you don't have to recruit players.
(06:11):
But I always said fourth is Texas and and I
as we talk about what kind of job it is,
I always think, like Texas is the best college job
Ohio State, Georgia. Then we can argue, like Notre Dame.
There's an academic umbrella. It's kind of you know, it's
it's in the middle of nowhere, it's you know, it's small,
(06:33):
it's private, bad weather. I mean, my wife wouldn't be
overjoyed to move to South and Indiana. Like all things considered.
If I said to you top five jobs, I want
you to consider pressure, pay conference, geographic location. Remember Oregon.
You know, as an outsider, if you don't have a
lot of players in your state, you generally don't have
(06:55):
a good program. Phil Knight changes that. California changes it.
If I said to you five programs, all things considered,
where are you?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
You are going to think I'm joking with you. But
Kentucky football would be the job that I would want
to take. Mark Stoops makes close to ten million dollars
a year. The goal there is to win seven games.
Rural Kentucky, you can be there forever. He's got a
massive buyout, and unlike a lot of these other guys,
he is the only place where you blend SEC payscale
(07:27):
without SEC pressure. I can't believe people don't look at
Mark Stoops and say that guy figured it out. Now,
if you do want to compete for a national championship,
the answer is the University of Georgia. Georgia has long
been that. And I remember when Saban was at Alabama
and everyone would look at Saban and is he going
to go to Texas? But I remember someone saying, no,
(07:50):
forget Saban to Texas, like, yeah, if he were to
take that job, it would suck for Alabama, but Hit'd
do probably the same thing at Texas. He's I don't
think you could dominate much more than Saban did at Alabama.
But what people kept saying was you need to be
paying attention to what happens with Georgia. This was like
the Mark Rick Georgia era. Yeah, Georgia for a long time.
I grew up there. For a long time. Georgia, like
(08:13):
good was the enemy of great, and they were just good.
It was pretty good, it was kind of good. And
there was this like nether region. There were never bad
enough for a firing to happen, they were never good
enough to win a title. And the rest of the
SEC was so happy with Georgia being like that. And
finally it got to a tipping point. I really think
Saban and to an extent, Urban Meyer, turned the heat
(08:34):
up in the SEC enough to where Georgia made a move.
And then Georgia went and got Nick Saban's guy and
Kirby Smart, and the day they hired Smart, there's no
guarantees in this world. But I thought to myself if
that is the guy that can replicate Saban's model or
come roughly close to it, if you take those ingredients
and you throw them in Athens, Georgia, I just thought
it was a powder keg, the lights of which in
(08:56):
a generation prior to me being born, they used to
talk about Florida. You read the books, you listen to
the interviews, you read the Paul bear Bryant quotes when
he was at Bama of hoping no one ever figures
out Florida, because if anyone ever figured out the University
of Florida, then they'd be a monster to deal with.
So Kentucky, if I don't want to win a title, Georgia,
if I do want to win a title, would be
(09:16):
my two answers.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Michigan sounds like a greater program than it is. So
Ohio State is essentially the SEC. Just northep the obsession,
the passion, the relentlessness. I mean, Luke Fickle gets an hour,
you're out, that's the SEC. Michigan's patient. Michigan's got the
medical school, the business school. And the truth is, if
(09:39):
you take Harbaugh out, they'd havemn't egged it for a
lot of years where it's like, well they're okay, they're
not special. When they hired somebody on staff, my first
take was, Oh, that's Michigan. That's not going to work.
That's not going to work. That as much as I
(10:00):
loved harbaughn Michigan is that Michigan is a program that
people instinctively helmet fight song, Harbaugh Brady think of a
top five or six program, but I don't think it is.
I don't think Michigan is a top ten. Now I'm
saying this, you take the job. Okay, you take the job.
(10:22):
Oregon has Phil Knight, Ohio State has historically been more obsessed.
Penn State's got even athletes. Oh damn. Now Washington and
USC are in it. That I would not be surprised
if Michigan went ten years and was kind of an
eight win program. I would not be shocked.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
That's a lot. Let me break this down. Okay, So
my perception, my perception was kind of with an asterisk
next to it. When when Jim Harball left and they
give Sharon the job. Because I could never prove this,
but you could. You'd be tough for you to convince me.
There weren't some conversations in that building up of we've
got this looming in Cuba thing, don't really know which
(11:03):
way it's going to go. Let's just build a bridge
right now, and who knows. Maybe Shrine's the perfect guy
and it's a moot point, but at the very least,
let's just give ourselves an ability to have this conversation
again two or three years down the road. And if
he's great, it's a moot point, and if he's not,
it'll give us an open door. I still think there's
a little bit of that, and there's a lot of
remains to be seen on that. Here's what I wonder,
(11:25):
all right, So the malaise that was Michigan, which was
basically my upbringing, Like I came up, I'm in high school,
mid two thousands, my college years. That's the area you're
talking about with Michigan. I'm sort of on the back
part of Lloyd car and so I hear about when
Michigan was great more than I'm watching them great Texas
kind of the same way Mac Brown towards the end,
(11:46):
and then Texas is the same way. I wonder if
you're allowed to have that for an extended period of
time anymore. With the way money is in the sport
right now, and so also how volatile ross turn is.
Because if it's going to be real, here's what it's
going to do. It's gonna be really hard to gauge
a coach because it used to be like I would
(12:09):
define program as a four year rolling blend of staff
grades and recruiting rankings and development and NFL draft production. Well,
how am I even doing that if we've thrown it
all in a blender in thirty eight percent of your
roster year over year is coming from someone else's program.
So I don't really know how to grade a coach
so much as I know how to create a talent acquirer.
(12:30):
I just wonder if they don't look at it and say,
what used to be okay here is not okay anymore.
That's why it always helps when your rivals are winning.
It helped Auburn down in the South when Alabama was winning.
There's no way Auburn goes in with a title in
twenty ten if you don't have the reverse reaction to
the saving thing. And likewise, at Michigan you've got Ohio State,
(12:52):
which will always turn the heat up on you. But
I'm more interested in what you're talking about the new
additions to the conference. What is Oregon long term? I've
actually got some my high expectations for Washington long term.
Probably Hi, same country. Yeah, I just I see where
you're coming from. Okay, I feel the same way about
the profile of the program. I feel the same way.
(13:13):
I just don't know if they if you've got big
enough money that walks around and does what it took
for them to get Bryce Underwood, I'm not sure that
they just sit there and say, I guess we're good
enough with eight wins. Like if that happened, I just
think they'd be overly aggressive and keep hiring and keep
hiring and keep hiring until they hire their way out
of it, which is a horrific strategy in college sports.
(13:34):
But that means they wouldn't try it.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Think about this. Hardball won instantly in San Diego, instantly
with the Niners. He won instantly with the Chargers, turn
them around. Stanford he didn't win instantly, but he was
a forty point dog went to the coliseum and beat
USC so instantly. He changed the culture. Michigan took a while.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yo, dude, that's its own documentary.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, Michigan took a while for Jim Harball because I
always said this, if you're too worried. One of the
advantages the SEC has, like culturally they really don't care
about the swim team. There are certain universities the West
Coast really cares about it. There's some ACC schools that do.
(14:19):
Michigan has always looked at Ohio State is like, well,
academically there are junior college We wouldn't do what they
would do. And my take is Oregon just entered the conference.
Oregon has no effect on Ohio State, either does USC
or Washington. But I think Oregon, Washington and USC can
(14:40):
beat Michigan regularly. I don't think they can beat Ohio
State regularly. And that's my take is that when the
Pac twelve came to the Big Ten, there was this
sense that woh those West Coast schools, it's big boy football.
And my take is, oh, Jim Harbaugh leaves Michigan in
five years, were going to look up and go they're
(15:01):
the school in trouble. That USC's hummon, Oregon's gonna hum
Washington whenever they get the right coach is a top
ten program. Let's be honest. James Franklin is one of
the top five recruiters in the sport. They're gonna be fine.
I mean they have they have dudes. I just think
Michigan and I and I know everybody loves Underwood, myself included,
(15:22):
but I look at it and I think Hired within
conference is much stronger. They care about stuff that a
lot of football powers don't. I have a weird vibe
about Michigan and Ohio State now is playing. I mean,
they are rolling right now, they are. They feel like
Georgia four years ago.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I remember when I was I used to work in
a warehouse and listen to you all the time describe
fan bases, and you would talk about sweater vest fan bases,
and you're kind of describing the sweater vest ish miss
of Michigan. So another layer of that theory to test
out here is I noticed a different vibe off of
them over the past twenty four to thirty six months
(16:05):
with the whole Stallion's thing, with the whole NCA investigation,
there was there was this there was this sort of
throwing back in Michigan's face, the hypocrisy water balloon of
do you guys have looked down your nose at the
rest of college football for so long, and it's you
that's wrapped up in this, and instead of looking and
kind of defending themselves or you know, apologizing for it,
(16:27):
they just kind of said, you know, like, if we
got to get the sweat of us dirty, if we
got to get some dirt under our fingernails, then so
be it. And I don't know long term what kind
of ramification that has. There are always these inflection points
in the trajectory of programs or businesses or whatever, and
you look back on it when you're, you know, doing
the documentary, you're writing a book twenty years down the road,
(16:48):
and this moment in time affected this this and this downstream.
I still don't think we know fully how much that
right there, that past twenty twenty four, we're thirty six,
forty eight months, was an inflection point that changes the
attitude around there. And it could be nothing, by the way,
but it could be something that makes them a little
less apologetic about being a little more serious about football.
(17:11):
It's not that they weren't, but your point's well taken.
Some places, they will literally do whatever it takes to win.
I grew up there, that's right. I grew up in
the South.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
There's about eight of them.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, we never perceived Michigan that way down south. We
perceived Ohio State like that. We always thought Penn State
maybe like that. We never thought that about Michigan. And
recently there's a little more of that vibe coming off
Michigan to where I still question if they would let
it sink back to that eight or nine win degree
(17:42):
without getting the ultra aggressive in the hiring. Hiring doesn't
guarantee anything. I just don't know that they would sit
back and you know, cross the legs and you know,
sit back in the rocking chair and say, oh, well,
at least the GPA is high like they used to. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
So, by the way, Michigan faces Nebraska this and it's
probably going to be a field goal game. It's at Nebraska.
I don't know. I probably would take I would probably
take Underwood making a play and winning the game late.
If I had to bet, I would just say two
really talented quarterbacks. I would probably take Michigan again. Underwood
(18:20):
close game twenty seven, twenty four, makes a play late,
What say you?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I am going to this one? Never been to a
Nebraska game before looking forward to it. I believe in
a lot of that rule year three stuff, at least
at the college level. If that's right, and he's there
year three and they scratched out of winning its Cincy
early on, and Cincey's quarterback ran for over one hundred
against him, by the way, which is something underwould absolutely
(18:45):
could do in this game. I just if a lot
of what I believe about them, if their wide receiver
core is one of the more underrated position rooms in
the Big Ten, which I believe, if I believe that
they've got the kind of guys that can stand up
at the line of scrimmage, at least they all made
team like Michigan, if that's right. This is kind of
the way that you prove it's the stage you prove
it on. So I don't have a strong feel on it. Actually,
(19:08):
later in the week we've gotten I kind of do
have a stronger feel on it. I think it's going
to be a Nebraska day. I think they're gonna win
that game, and I think the talk around them becomes
a little different. Like I thought this is a fringe
playoff team at the outset, because I thought they'd get
one or two of these key wins could afford to
drop to and be a ten and two non Big
Ten Championship type playoff team.
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Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
No, I mean they have to go to u SC
if they lose this game. Oklahoma was clearly the side,
clearly the better team, more juniors than seniors, and I
think Oklahoma finally has their quarterback, and I think it's interesting.
I didn't think brtt Venables would have been my choice,
but I do think when a defensive coach gets his
(20:18):
star quarterback, there's a magic that happens. That's what's hurt
Mike Tomlin with the Steelers, he just big bend, got old,
just can't find the quarterback. And Belichick even proved like
defensive coaches wants the star quarterback. If you miss on
Cam and Mac Jones like, you get fired. So I
think BRTT Venables has found his quarterback for the time being,
(20:38):
and it's like, okay, So he's got a bunch of
juniors and seniors on defense. He knows defense, he can
build culture. He's a tough guy. He wasn't Clemson. It'll work.
It's interesting with Lincoln Riley. He's the offensive guy. He
had his quarterback, he found his defensive coordinator. So last
week I had my questions about USC but I watched
(20:58):
them last week and I thought because when I watched
Oklahoma beat Michigan, I thought, Okay, this coach is gonna work.
It's gonna work. And you can't just fire coaches, Josh
like you used to, because the nil you got to
raise twenty million dollars before you buy out the coach.
So this I've said, the NIL is a coach's best friend.
(21:20):
So Lincoln Riley's an eighty million dollar buyout. They just
built three hundred million in facilities. They raised eighteen million
a year. Lincoln Ronny is not going anywhere. But when
I watched Michigan Oklahoma, I thought, Okay, he's gonna survive here.
They're not buying him out. He's gonna survive. And I
watched I know it was Purdue, but I watched their
defensive front and I'm like, oh shit, you at this
(21:42):
is a Big ten team. USC is controlling the line
of scrimmage. They mean they are pushing up now Michigan
State's offense is better than after that, it's Illinois as
a real test. Albeit that one in of Champagne a
glorious Champagne, the champagn aans better than the town. But
my take was My take was, Oh, I think Venables
(22:05):
and Lincoln Riley found their way. I think the NIL
looks like a magic elixir, but I think both of
those coaches experimented with it, maybe over used it, and
now they feel like they've kind of figured out the
portal and figured out the NIL. My take is Venables
and Lincoln are going to work. I know it's early
(22:26):
in year three, but I feel it strongly.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Do you? Yeah, you are describing something I agree with,
something I have begged Daboswenty to explore at Clemson to
no success. You're describing what Brian Kelly has figured out
in the last year or so at LS. Yes. I
mean he walked in that building and almost from an
egotistical standpoint, tried to prove a point by flushing the
(22:52):
building of Louisiana people and a huge mistake, and he
course corrected on that from a personnel side, and of
course on defensive hiring, and now voila, they can win
a game twenty to ten last week. And it's hideous,
but it's a win. I fully believe what you're saying
about Lincoln at USC. Here's the shame of it. The
shame of it is he didn't do it when he
(23:14):
first got hired, like he brought a guy with him
that was very inferior as his defensive coordinator. I've got
my own theories about why that happened, but it happened,
all right. So he makes the right move. He made
the wrong decision at the outset, he course corrects properly
the problem as we I think you and I talked
about this a couple of weeks ago. Okay, then you
find yourself at a major job three years in asking
(23:37):
for patients and no one wants to give you patients.
But if they will get it to him, I do
believe it'll work out. I've always believed that about Lincoln Riley.
I just hate that it took this long to figure
it out. And you know, we're still in the the
stage of that. But I do think he figured it out.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
You know, Josh, what happens is and Saban found this
out when he left Michigan State to LSU. So when
you take a job and you're kind of scooting out
of town, this is Lane Kiffin at Tennessee. So what
you basically tell your staff is, guys, the private jet
leads in six hours. If you get on it, you're hired. Well,
(24:15):
the truth is, with Lincoln at Oklahoma or with Lane
at Tennessee, there's a couple of guys on your staff
you're probably not or hoping don't get on the plane.
But when they do get on the plane and move
their families cross country, then you owe them two years
of employment for their kids and their family. So Alex
(24:36):
Grinch got on the plane. I think he knew halfway
through year one. I can't fire him. It wasn't working.
And so I think, and this happens especially in college.
In the NFL, guys don't jump team to team very often.
You know, Andy reads out of a job then people
go bit on him. But in college you sometimes lead
(24:57):
big program to big program and you have to get
in a private jet and out of dodge and I
think what happened to Lincoln and this wasn't the Brett
venimal experience. This was not him because remember Lincoln left
in the middle of the night and everybody's like, oh,
we need a coach, and there was some discussion for
a couple of weeks. But I think Lincoln had guys
get on the jet and you have to be loyal
(25:17):
to him. I think this version of the staff, the
GM from Notre Dame Lynn the defensive coordinator, it's a
grown up staff. It's a really good staff. By the way,
Nick Saban, near the end of his tenure at Alabama,
I thought had a bad staff.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, you were right.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
I thought he had a really bad I watched him
a couple of big games, and I'm like, there's something
missing here. The defense is not as good. Nick's the CEO,
you know, and there's nothing you could do at his age,
he can't be up twenty three hours a day. But
I think the US I just think the USC thing's
gonna work. I don't know if it works this year,
but if you doubt if he can coach, watch Jaden Mayava.
(25:58):
He is a completely different player than last year. Last
year he was sloppy, he was almost immature. Boy he
is on he is a grown up now.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I'm telling you what else to watch. He plays within
Lincoln's system and that sounds common sensical. There's a guy
starting at quarterback for the Chicago Bears right now and
sometimes failed to do that and his talent just bailed
him out and he could do circus things. But also
it will drive you crazy as a coordinator, play caller,
(26:31):
head coach. But what are you gonna do? I mean,
you got a guy out there and he's got top
top half of first round NFL potential, and yet he's
just sort of winging it, not playing within your system.
And I've thought for a while, and I guarantee if
you got truth Seeruim in that staff, they're probably a
lot more comfortable with their quarterback situation right now because
they got a guy they developed, but they got a
guy that plays within their system because you can coach
(26:54):
around that, like you can game plan around that. The
other same thing with Milroe at Alabama last year. Game
plan around this. Right, that's right here we can deal
with right.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Finally, A and M beats Notre Dame. I was surprised,
were you?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I was in a boat where I wasn't shot. I
was mildly surprised. I was surprised at the game script
more so than anything. Two games last week Georgia Tennessee
A and m Notre Dame, both of them get into
the forties and I didn't really see that coming. I
just thought to myself, you know, I went to college
station in the spring, and all they're talking about is, boy,
(27:32):
we got that Notre Dame game early in the season
and this right here, and we know they're that, and
we think we can be that. That's when we'll go
prove it. And we got a three headed monster tailback.
Look at this offensive line. So I'm thinking to myself,
nineteen seventy four style football, and it did not unfold
that way. And so what you end up having to do.
(27:53):
Colin Kleines, the offensive coordinator there no I remember sitting
there talking to him in the spring and he said,
I'll tell you one thing we're going to have. We're
going to have an increased vertical element in our passing
game if our quarterback can execute it. Because they knew
they hit hit on those transfer portal receivers. Those guys
are monsters. One of them was kind of hurt last
year Conceptciance, Well, he's back craver as a monster. He said,
(28:14):
if we if we got a guy that can pull
the trigger, we'll have that. Well, they turns out they
needed it in week three and they need to trade
points and they need to come from behind, and that
was what surprised me that they were able to sort
of on the fly. It's the same way with Kirby
at Georgia. But Kirby's been there a long time. So
when that game got uncomfortable for Georgia fans last week
(28:34):
and the other guys scoring an uncomfortable amount of points,
they're totally comfortable being uncomfortable as a team. A and
M hasn't proven that, so they don't have that equity.
They don't have that benefit of the doubt in my mind,
and they totally earned it the other night. But that
is such a huge feather in the cap because there's
always been this crowd anytime I talk about Texas A
and M.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Oh it's the great underachiever in the sport.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
It's the yes, it's it's yes bar none. But people
say Arizona State, let me counter with Texas A and M.
Because I always ask the people that tell me they
cannot cannot, cannot, which I believe is just have not
disguised as cannot. I ask, what is it you need
to win big time in this sport that they don't have.
I already know the answer. Nothing. They just don't have
(29:18):
the Wikipedia page because they have fantastically fumbled higher after
hire after hire, and they don't really know what greatness
looks like. So they sometimes get confused into thinking they've
got it and they don't have it. Mike Elko, though,
I will tell you this now, when he came there
from Duke, a lot of the personnel people hit me
up from around college football and they said, don't know
(29:39):
if it's going to work. Personalities could clash all this,
and that A and M just hired the best evaluator
and developer that we've seen in quite a while. And
these are guys who cover the entire sport. And so
you know, you get there and you get all that money,
and you have the apparatus to go sign top ten classes,
go get guys out of the portal. But notice, unlike Jimbo, notice,
(30:01):
over the next couple of years, the progression and the
development of guys on A and m's roster, the ones
who get better. There's some notable exceptions out there right
now of teams that returned to a bunch of starters
and they're no different than they were last year. The
mark of a program that's got big time upward mobility
is their returning starters are actually better than they were
(30:21):
last year, which sounds like it's easy to do. It's
not easy to do. That I think will be a
hallmark of their program. Like, I don't think they're going anywhere.
I think they're going to be in the mix for
quite a while.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
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(32:23):
You know Brian, I like Brian Kelly. I've said, I
remember when urban melted down with a media in Florida,
and I've seen it. College basketball coaches do it. And
I've said, you know, you don't see it in the
NFL much because you're in a big city. The media
is tough everywhere, and you also have an owner above
you that you don't want to embarrass the franchise. But
(32:44):
in college football, the coach is often the highest paid
state employee you can really control practice. The media is
small town, so you get into kind of this kind
of power vacuum where you kind of are the biggest
guy in the state and you kind of get into
your ego and Brian was got very tribal and protective
and it you know, he doesn't have a natty. It
(33:07):
took him a while to get it rolling. There was
the incident where the student died on campus. Like there's
there's a lot of stuff here with Brian Kelly. He's
not always the most likable. There was the fake Southern
accent or whatever it is. But I still contend that
I don't know if he has the relentless recruiting energy
(33:27):
he used to do. I like Brian Kelly, but I
but I found the media historically plays favorites. For years
they were tough on hardball, and I'd be like, guys,
he got the Super Bowl, I know how bad Stanford was.
He can coach. Take a deep breath. I think Brian
Kelly's a top twelve coach. Am I misguided? Is nobody
(33:50):
yet buys him in the SEC because LSU has been
when they have the right coach, they're great. I don't know,
how what do you if you had to grade him
at LSU?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Where would you be about a bus B minus to be?
I think look first off, I love BK as well,
so he's never rubbed me the wrong way. I mean,
I've gotten along great with him. I think that he
walked in there, like I told you twenty minutes ago,
and there has always been a very very unique connection culturally,
(34:20):
just the fabric of Louisiana and LSU football that I
don't think you can fully appreciate it unless you've been
down there for.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
A long That's right, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
And he walked in and his attitude, Frankly, I can't
blame him for having because I think I would have
been the same way if I were him, I would
have walked in and said, basically, I'm Brian Kelly. I
know what I'm doing. I know what the formula to
win is. And contrary to what you people think, the
formula to win in South Bend is the same as
it is here. Get good players, develop them by into
the process we define around here, and we'll win. And
(34:52):
I think he heard about Louisiana, this Louisiana that to
the point where he almost wanted to prove a point.
And when I tell you, he flushed Louisiana out of
that buil. I mean some people that it wouldn't have
mattered whether they stayed or went desk receptionist. No, you're
from thibodeau By, So he flushed that place of Louisiana. Now,
it wouldn't have mattered if they won immediately, right, they didn't,
(35:14):
And because they didn't, internally and culturally down there, that's
been held over his head. Now on Saturdays, they're fully
behind him, all right, In recruiting weekends, they're fully behind him.
But there are a lot of people that haven't. I
told you so attitude towards Brian Kelly his own state
because he did that well organizationally, university wise, they course
(35:35):
corrected collectively. I don't really think that decision was entirely
on his plate. If you get what I'm saying right,
you know, you bring Blake Baker down there as your
defensive coordinator, you bring Austin Thomas in as your GM.
These are people you cut them open and it's purple
and goal. And not only that, they're the best in
the world, some of the best in the world at
what they do. And it's no coincidence that LSU you
(35:55):
all of a sudden feel it, you can sense it.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
You could have since their defense their defense looks like
big boy defense, like like, I mean, that was the
thing last year. They were atrocious. So to me, I
never worried about Brian's offenses, like I think he'll always
figure those that he's rough on quarterbacks. But I Lasu's
defense is like Georgia when you got the right coach.
It's just all NFL players. It's eleven guys who will
(36:22):
eventually plan on Sunday.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, which was shocking that you have Jaden Daniels there
a couple of years ago, and if you told me
LSU was gonna have a Heisman Trophy caliber quarterback come through,
I just blindly say national championship. Tell me who the
coach is. I mean, I'm rolling out a top twenty
five defense if my mom's the DC there as long
as you're keeping in state kids in state. So for
that to have failed them was mind boggling. It's just
(36:47):
like Mario not being able to stop anything last year
at Miami with Cam Moore. It's crazy. So it's funny
that we've talked about this because I feel there's a
very very closely correlated story that's been told over the
past few years in college football about Brian Kelly and
Lincoln Riley. Ironically, the whispers were initially, oh, Lincoln may
(37:07):
take the LSU job. Well, then he winds up at USC.
So then LSU goes and gets Brian Kelly, and they
both had the wrong defensive coordinators at the outset, and
then they both corrected and now they're both massively improved defensively.
I just feel like the story arc is headed for
a playoff matchup one day. I just feel like, get
USCLSU one day. But I do agree with you, and
(37:31):
it's I don't think it's something that'll really be appreciated
by them unless he wins the national championship there because
everybody else this millennium has who's been the head coach
at LSU.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, I mean listen Ed Orgeron, who's a very funny guy.
I love. Ed does not consider a schematic, you know,
kingpin of the sport. He's a recruiter. I mean for
years I thought he was more of a position coach,
like a line coach than even a coordinator. Broke his
heart when he didn't get the USC job. And I
would argue today that LSU team with Burrows the most
(38:02):
talented I've ever seen period end of story. So I
mean they had the hardest schedule, won every game, So
if Ed can do it, and that's not a knock
like he's I mean Ed would be the first to
admit ed Ed never scheduled a bad time. Ed Ed
was a distracted, funny, great guy. But I think Brian's
(38:23):
too good of a coach. The older I get, I
tend to just look at people and if I have
to hire somebody or something at the volume, hire smart people.
They'll figure it out, as my rule, and I think
Brian it took him a while. I mean it just
it took a while. He couldn't get the accent down.
But eventually I think three years in, like, I feel
(38:43):
like they figured it out.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, they're one of the teams I'm looking most forward
to watching here. The SEC is just going to be
a bloodbath by the end of this thing, and they're
one that you know the Clemson game goes the way
it does. I was actually glad this week he publicized
the Garrett nuss injury because it's kind of been whispered
about in the South that nus Meyer had injury leading
up to that Week one game against Clemson. Like an
(39:07):
abdominal thing never got publicized, and they go and win
on the road, and then they were very lackluster in
Week two against an inferior opponent, and then week three,
Lagway turns the ball over five times and LSU wins
twenty to ten, and you can clearly tell, hey, we're undefeated.
Something feels a little off offensively right Way. Quarterback's been hurt,
(39:27):
that's what's been off. Here's the thing, though, there are
teams with healthy quarterbacks that are one and two right
now and you're three to zero. That's the surest sign
the defense is fixed.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yep, Josh Pate as always great stuff.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Man appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
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Speaker 2 (00:03):
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go download the Game Time app today. All right, Josh
Pate joining us. He cuts through like nobody else with
college football. Obviously, host of Josh Page's College Football Show,
(01:07):
which is fantastic. So I got into this discussion the
other day. I'm known as a USC Homer so and
I lean into it because I think it's obnoxious and funny.
But whatever, we all have our team or our region
or whatever. And I was talking to a friend the
other day who's a UCLA Bruin, and I said, I
just don't think. I don't think UCLA is a good job.
(01:30):
I think it's one of those where it sounds like
it should be good. You're like, oh, there's a lot
of money in bel Air, but it's an international university.
NIL punishes college football programs. You can make. You can
be a top ten college basketball program with about four
million a year in college basketball if you're not at
(01:51):
sixteen to eighteen, which is where USC's at now. I mean,
there's a reason USC's defensive front looks better. Bought a
lot of it. So my take with UCLA is they
are bottom half of the Big ten in NIL because
it's in bel Air, Josh, you can't really and it's
(02:11):
a public university. Your coaches have to drive forty five
minutes or an hour to work. I don't think it's
a good job. I do not think it's a good job.
I would if I was an agent, I would not
send my best clients there. I don't think it has
a huge brand. You tell me you live in Nashville.
I spent eight nine years in Los Angeles. I don't
(02:34):
think it's a good I don't think it's a good
I don't think it's a top thirty college football job.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I would go further. I don't think it's top forty five.
Like you're talking about multiple G five jobs that are
better than UCLA and I. When we say that, by
the way, I know people who don't live in this
world and who don't immerse themselves in it, they almost
think you have an ax to grind, like you just
talked about, Oh, that's USCO morism. Well, dude, I grew
up in Harris County, Georgia, so I got no dog
(03:01):
in this fight. I'm just telling you what I perceive.
But I could be wrong. So then you ask around
and you ask forget agents. Yet of course agents are
echoing that to me, Colin. I just go to coaches.
When I see a coach's name in the running for
these jobs, I'll just go to the coach and I'll
ask him, and they'll usually shoot straight with you. And
I just think, probably even I've been a little taken
(03:23):
back by how many people who in a previous lifetime,
we would look at it the job they're at, and
you would think, oh, it's a slam dunk. Yeh, he
can get the UCLA job. He's going to take it.
That in the modern day look at it and say, dude,
there's no way. And we're not just talking about head coaches,
like I'm telling you, there are coordinators out there. There
(03:44):
are pretty high level coordinators out there that would not
leave where they are right now for the UCLA job.
And you mentioned it's bottom half of the big ten.
Well that's in a vacuum. So yes, it's bottom half
of big ten in vacuum. But then like you said,
when you factor in, hey, if you take the Indiana job,
I mean you could do like Signity and blow it up.
But even if it's not what Signitti has made it,
(04:06):
you're going to live in Bloomington, Indiana very affordable. So
you're asking me to go take a bottom half job.
You're going asking me to be distant second in my
own town. You're asking me to be second on my
own campus. When it comes to the athletic department, You're
asking me to take over a place where the nil
infrastructure is really discombobulated. They're not fractionally as put together
(04:26):
in football as they are for basketball. There and you're
asking me, by the way, to compete with superpower programs
like Oregon and Ohio State and Penn State and Michigan.
There's just I don't have much good to say about it.
I wish I was wrong. I wish you were wrong.
We're not.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, I mean I and the football stadium's forty five
minutes off campus. I think there was a time when
you could you could get away. There was a time
when it was Terry Donahue and then Dick for Meal
and it would get on ABC and it was part
of the Pack twelve, and there was something to be
said about you're playing in the Rose Bowl and the
(05:04):
weather was cold everywhere else, and now you're like, oh,
it's warm in UCLA. Like I could see a quarterback
or wide receivers, and they do put guys in the NFL.
But I think there was a moment when Chip Kelly
said I'd rather go be a coordinator in a Big
Ten school than the coach of UCLA. And to me,
it's like, oh, that's the tipping point, because Chip knows
(05:26):
you know Chip, Chip's coached at Oregon, He's coached at
the NFL. He's like, no, yeah, I'm and I know Chip.
Chip was at my sixtieth birthday party. Chip likes La.
Chip and his wife love La. It's not that he's
not an outsider. So you know, it's funny. I said
years ago, I felt this. I don't feel it anymore.
(05:48):
I said years ago, I thought the Texas job, I said,
take away the top three quarterbacks in the NFL, whoever
has those, and they're in their prime. Those are the
best football jobs America. Kansas City, Buffalo, Baltimore. You know,
those are the best jobs. You have an NFL pension,
your coaches don't leave, you don't have to recruit players.
(06:11):
But I always said fourth is Texas and and I
as we talk about what kind of job it is,
I always think, like Texas is the best college job
Ohio State, Georgia. Then we can argue, like Notre Dame.
There's an academic umbrella. It's kind of you know, it's
it's in the middle of nowhere, it's you know, it's small,
(06:33):
it's private, bad weather. I mean, my wife wouldn't be
overjoyed to move to South and Indiana. Like all things considered.
If I said to you top five jobs, I want
you to consider pressure, pay conference, geographic location. Remember Oregon.
You know, as an outsider, if you don't have a
lot of players in your state, you generally don't have
(06:55):
a good program. Phil Knight changes that. California changes it.
If I said to you five programs, all things considered,
where are you?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
You are going to think I'm joking with you. But
Kentucky football would be the job that I would want
to take. Mark Stoops makes close to ten million dollars
a year. The goal there is to win seven games.
Rural Kentucky, you can be there forever. He's got a
massive buyout, and unlike a lot of these other guys,
he is the only place where you blend SEC payscale
(07:27):
without SEC pressure. I can't believe people don't look at
Mark Stoops and say that guy figured it out. Now,
if you do want to compete for a national championship,
the answer is the University of Georgia. Georgia has long
been that. And I remember when Saban was at Alabama
and everyone would look at Saban and is he going
to go to Texas? But I remember someone saying, no,
(07:50):
forget Saban to Texas, like, yeah, if he were to
take that job, it would suck for Alabama, but Hit'd
do probably the same thing at Texas. He's I don't
think you could dominate much more than Saban did at Alabama.
But what people kept saying was you need to be
paying attention to what happens with Georgia. This was like
the Mark Rick Georgia era. Yeah, Georgia for a long time.
I grew up there. For a long time. Georgia, like
(08:13):
good was the enemy of great, and they were just good.
It was pretty good, it was kind of good. And
there was this like nether region. There were never bad
enough for a firing to happen, they were never good
enough to win a title. And the rest of the
SEC was so happy with Georgia being like that. And
finally it got to a tipping point. I really think
Saban and to an extent, Urban Meyer, turned the heat
(08:34):
up in the SEC enough to where Georgia made a move.
And then Georgia went and got Nick Saban's guy and
Kirby Smart, and the day they hired Smart, there's no
guarantees in this world. But I thought to myself if
that is the guy that can replicate Saban's model or
come roughly close to it, if you take those ingredients
and you throw them in Athens, Georgia, I just thought
it was a powder keg, the lights of which in
(08:56):
a generation prior to me being born, they used to
talk about Florida. You read the books, you listen to
the interviews, you read the Paul bear Bryant quotes when
he was at Bama of hoping no one ever figures
out Florida, because if anyone ever figured out the University
of Florida, then they'd be a monster to deal with.
So Kentucky, if I don't want to win a title, Georgia,
if I do want to win a title, would be
(09:16):
my two answers.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Michigan sounds like a greater program than it is. So
Ohio State is essentially the SEC. Just northep the obsession,
the passion, the relentlessness. I mean, Luke Fickle gets an hour,
you're out, that's the SEC. Michigan's patient. Michigan's got the
medical school, the business school. And the truth is, if
(09:39):
you take Harbaugh out, they'd havemn't egged it for a
lot of years where it's like, well they're okay, they're
not special. When they hired somebody on staff, my first
take was, Oh, that's Michigan. That's not going to work.
That's not going to work. That as much as I
(10:00):
loved harbaughn Michigan is that Michigan is a program that
people instinctively helmet fight song, Harbaugh Brady think of a
top five or six program, but I don't think it is.
I don't think Michigan is a top ten. Now I'm
saying this, you take the job. Okay, you take the job.
(10:22):
Oregon has Phil Knight, Ohio State has historically been more obsessed.
Penn State's got even athletes. Oh damn. Now Washington and
USC are in it. That I would not be surprised
if Michigan went ten years and was kind of an
eight win program. I would not be shocked.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
That's a lot. Let me break this down. Okay, So
my perception, my perception was kind of with an asterisk
next to it. When when Jim Harball left and they
give Sharon the job. Because I could never prove this,
but you could. You'd be tough for you to convince me.
There weren't some conversations in that building up of we've
got this looming in Cuba thing, don't really know which
(11:03):
way it's going to go. Let's just build a bridge
right now, and who knows. Maybe Shrine's the perfect guy
and it's a moot point, but at the very least,
let's just give ourselves an ability to have this conversation
again two or three years down the road. And if
he's great, it's a moot point, and if he's not,
it'll give us an open door. I still think there's
a little bit of that, and there's a lot of
remains to be seen on that. Here's what I wonder,
(11:25):
all right, So the malaise that was Michigan, which was
basically my upbringing, Like I came up, I'm in high school,
mid two thousands, my college years. That's the area you're
talking about with Michigan. I'm sort of on the back
part of Lloyd car and so I hear about when
Michigan was great more than I'm watching them great Texas
kind of the same way Mac Brown towards the end,
(11:46):
and then Texas is the same way. I wonder if
you're allowed to have that for an extended period of
time anymore. With the way money is in the sport
right now, and so also how volatile ross turn is.
Because if it's going to be real, here's what it's
going to do. It's gonna be really hard to gauge
a coach because it used to be like I would
(12:09):
define program as a four year rolling blend of staff
grades and recruiting rankings and development and NFL draft production. Well,
how am I even doing that if we've thrown it
all in a blender in thirty eight percent of your
roster year over year is coming from someone else's program.
So I don't really know how to grade a coach
so much as I know how to create a talent acquirer.
(12:30):
I just wonder if they don't look at it and say,
what used to be okay here is not okay anymore.
That's why it always helps when your rivals are winning.
It helped Auburn down in the South when Alabama was winning.
There's no way Auburn goes in with a title in
twenty ten if you don't have the reverse reaction to
the saving thing. And likewise, at Michigan you've got Ohio State,
(12:52):
which will always turn the heat up on you. But
I'm more interested in what you're talking about the new
additions to the conference. What is Oregon long term? I've
actually got some my high expectations for Washington long term.
Probably Hi, same country. Yeah, I just I see where
you're coming from. Okay, I feel the same way about
the profile of the program. I feel the same way.
(13:13):
I just don't know if they if you've got big
enough money that walks around and does what it took
for them to get Bryce Underwood, I'm not sure that
they just sit there and say, I guess we're good
enough with eight wins. Like if that happened, I just
think they'd be overly aggressive and keep hiring and keep
hiring and keep hiring until they hire their way out
of it, which is a horrific strategy in college sports.
(13:34):
But that means they wouldn't try it.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Think about this. Hardball won instantly in San Diego, instantly
with the Niners. He won instantly with the Chargers, turn
them around. Stanford he didn't win instantly, but he was
a forty point dog went to the coliseum and beat
USC so instantly. He changed the culture. Michigan took a while.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yo, dude, that's its own documentary.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, Michigan took a while for Jim Harball because I
always said this, if you're too worried. One of the
advantages the SEC has, like culturally they really don't care
about the swim team. There are certain universities the West
Coast really cares about it. There's some ACC schools that do.
(14:19):
Michigan has always looked at Ohio State is like, well,
academically there are junior college We wouldn't do what they
would do. And my take is Oregon just entered the conference.
Oregon has no effect on Ohio State, either does USC
or Washington. But I think Oregon, Washington and USC can
(14:40):
beat Michigan regularly. I don't think they can beat Ohio
State regularly. And that's my take is that when the
Pac twelve came to the Big Ten, there was this
sense that woh those West Coast schools, it's big boy football.
And my take is, oh, Jim Harbaugh leaves Michigan in
five years, were going to look up and go they're
(15:01):
the school in trouble. That USC's hummon, Oregon's gonna hum
Washington whenever they get the right coach is a top
ten program. Let's be honest. James Franklin is one of
the top five recruiters in the sport. They're gonna be fine.
I mean they have they have dudes. I just think
Michigan and I and I know everybody loves Underwood, myself included,
(15:22):
but I look at it and I think Hired within
conference is much stronger. They care about stuff that a
lot of football powers don't. I have a weird vibe
about Michigan and Ohio State now is playing. I mean,
they are rolling right now, they are. They feel like
Georgia four years ago.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I remember when I was I used to work in
a warehouse and listen to you all the time describe
fan bases, and you would talk about sweater vest fan bases,
and you're kind of describing the sweater vest ish miss
of Michigan. So another layer of that theory to test
out here is I noticed a different vibe off of
them over the past twenty four to thirty six months
(16:05):
with the whole Stallion's thing, with the whole NCA investigation,
there was there was this there was this sort of
throwing back in Michigan's face, the hypocrisy water balloon of
do you guys have looked down your nose at the
rest of college football for so long, and it's you
that's wrapped up in this, and instead of looking and
kind of defending themselves or you know, apologizing for it,
(16:27):
they just kind of said, you know, like, if we
got to get the sweat of us dirty, if we
got to get some dirt under our fingernails, then so
be it. And I don't know long term what kind
of ramification that has. There are always these inflection points
in the trajectory of programs or businesses or whatever, and
you look back on it when you're, you know, doing
the documentary, you're writing a book twenty years down the road,
(16:48):
and this moment in time affected this this and this downstream.
I still don't think we know fully how much that
right there, that past twenty twenty four, we're thirty six,
forty eight months, was an inflection point that changes the
attitude around there. And it could be nothing, by the way,
but it could be something that makes them a little
less apologetic about being a little more serious about football.
(17:11):
It's not that they weren't, but your point's well taken.
Some places, they will literally do whatever it takes to win.
I grew up there, that's right. I grew up in
the South.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
There's about eight of them.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, we never perceived Michigan that way down south. We
perceived Ohio State like that. We always thought Penn State
maybe like that. We never thought that about Michigan. And
recently there's a little more of that vibe coming off
Michigan to where I still question if they would let
it sink back to that eight or nine win degree
(17:42):
without getting the ultra aggressive in the hiring. Hiring doesn't
guarantee anything. I just don't know that they would sit
back and you know, cross the legs and you know,
sit back in the rocking chair and say, oh, well,
at least the GPA is high like they used to. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
So, by the way, Michigan faces Nebraska this and it's
probably going to be a field goal game. It's at Nebraska.
I don't know. I probably would take I would probably
take Underwood making a play and winning the game late.
If I had to bet, I would just say two
really talented quarterbacks. I would probably take Michigan again. Underwood
(18:20):
close game twenty seven, twenty four, makes a play late,
What say you?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I am going to this one? Never been to a
Nebraska game before looking forward to it. I believe in
a lot of that rule year three stuff, at least
at the college level. If that's right, and he's there
year three and they scratched out of winning its Cincy
early on, and Cincey's quarterback ran for over one hundred
against him, by the way, which is something underwould absolutely
(18:45):
could do in this game. I just if a lot
of what I believe about them, if their wide receiver
core is one of the more underrated position rooms in
the Big Ten, which I believe, if I believe that
they've got the kind of guys that can stand up
at the line of scrimmage, at least they all made
team like Michigan, if that's right. This is kind of
the way that you prove it's the stage you prove
it on. So I don't have a strong feel on it. Actually,
(19:08):
later in the week we've gotten I kind of do
have a stronger feel on it. I think it's going
to be a Nebraska day. I think they're gonna win
that game, and I think the talk around them becomes
a little different. Like I thought this is a fringe
playoff team at the outset, because I thought they'd get
one or two of these key wins could afford to
drop to and be a ten and two non Big
Ten Championship type playoff team.
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Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
No, I mean they have to go to u SC
if they lose this game. Oklahoma was clearly the side,
clearly the better team, more juniors than seniors, and I
think Oklahoma finally has their quarterback, and I think it's interesting.
I didn't think brtt Venables would have been my choice,
but I do think when a defensive coach gets his
(20:18):
star quarterback, there's a magic that happens. That's what's hurt
Mike Tomlin with the Steelers, he just big bend, got old,
just can't find the quarterback. And Belichick even proved like
defensive coaches wants the star quarterback. If you miss on
Cam and Mac Jones like, you get fired. So I
think BRTT Venables has found his quarterback for the time being,
(20:38):
and it's like, okay, So he's got a bunch of
juniors and seniors on defense. He knows defense, he can
build culture. He's a tough guy. He wasn't Clemson. It'll work.
It's interesting with Lincoln Riley. He's the offensive guy. He
had his quarterback, he found his defensive coordinator. So last
week I had my questions about USC but I watched
(20:58):
them last week and I thought because when I watched
Oklahoma beat Michigan, I thought, Okay, this coach is gonna work.
It's gonna work. And you can't just fire coaches, Josh
like you used to, because the nil you got to
raise twenty million dollars before you buy out the coach.
So this I've said, the NIL is a coach's best friend.
(21:20):
So Lincoln Riley's an eighty million dollar buyout. They just
built three hundred million in facilities. They raised eighteen million
a year. Lincoln Ronny is not going anywhere. But when
I watched Michigan Oklahoma, I thought, Okay, he's gonna survive here.
They're not buying him out. He's gonna survive. And I
watched I know it was Purdue, but I watched their
defensive front and I'm like, oh shit, you at this
(21:42):
is a Big ten team. USC is controlling the line
of scrimmage. They mean they are pushing up now Michigan
State's offense is better than after that, it's Illinois as
a real test. Albeit that one in of Champagne a
glorious Champagne, the champagn aans better than the town. But
my take was My take was, Oh, I think Venables
(22:05):
and Lincoln Riley found their way. I think the NIL
looks like a magic elixir, but I think both of
those coaches experimented with it, maybe over used it, and
now they feel like they've kind of figured out the
portal and figured out the NIL. My take is Venables
and Lincoln are going to work. I know it's early
(22:26):
in year three, but I feel it strongly.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Do you? Yeah, you are describing something I agree with,
something I have begged Daboswenty to explore at Clemson to
no success. You're describing what Brian Kelly has figured out
in the last year or so at LS. Yes. I
mean he walked in that building and almost from an
egotistical standpoint, tried to prove a point by flushing the
(22:52):
building of Louisiana people and a huge mistake, and he
course corrected on that from a personnel side, and of
course on defensive hiring, and now voila, they can win
a game twenty to ten last week. And it's hideous,
but it's a win. I fully believe what you're saying
about Lincoln at USC. Here's the shame of it. The
shame of it is he didn't do it when he
(23:14):
first got hired, like he brought a guy with him
that was very inferior as his defensive coordinator. I've got
my own theories about why that happened, but it happened,
all right. So he makes the right move. He made
the wrong decision at the outset, he course corrects properly
the problem as we I think you and I talked
about this a couple of weeks ago. Okay, then you
find yourself at a major job three years in asking
(23:37):
for patients and no one wants to give you patients.
But if they will get it to him, I do
believe it'll work out. I've always believed that about Lincoln Riley.
I just hate that it took this long to figure
it out. And you know, we're still in the the
stage of that. But I do think he figured it out.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
You know, Josh, what happens is and Saban found this
out when he left Michigan State to LSU. So when
you take a job and you're kind of scooting out
of town, this is Lane Kiffin at Tennessee. So what
you basically tell your staff is, guys, the private jet
leads in six hours. If you get on it, you're hired. Well,
(24:15):
the truth is, with Lincoln at Oklahoma or with Lane
at Tennessee, there's a couple of guys on your staff
you're probably not or hoping don't get on the plane.
But when they do get on the plane and move
their families cross country, then you owe them two years
of employment for their kids and their family. So Alex
(24:36):
Grinch got on the plane. I think he knew halfway
through year one. I can't fire him. It wasn't working.
And so I think, and this happens especially in college.
In the NFL, guys don't jump team to team very often.
You know, Andy reads out of a job then people
go bit on him. But in college you sometimes lead
(24:57):
big program to big program and you have to get
in a private jet and out of dodge and I
think what happened to Lincoln and this wasn't the Brett
venimal experience. This was not him because remember Lincoln left
in the middle of the night and everybody's like, oh,
we need a coach, and there was some discussion for
a couple of weeks. But I think Lincoln had guys
get on the jet and you have to be loyal
(25:17):
to him. I think this version of the staff, the
GM from Notre Dame Lynn the defensive coordinator, it's a
grown up staff. It's a really good staff. By the way,
Nick Saban, near the end of his tenure at Alabama,
I thought had a bad staff.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, you were right.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
I thought he had a really bad I watched him
a couple of big games, and I'm like, there's something
missing here. The defense is not as good. Nick's the CEO,
you know, and there's nothing you could do at his age,
he can't be up twenty three hours a day. But
I think the US I just think the USC thing's
gonna work. I don't know if it works this year,
but if you doubt if he can coach, watch Jaden Mayava.
(25:58):
He is a completely different player than last year. Last
year he was sloppy, he was almost immature. Boy he
is on he is a grown up now.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I'm telling you what else to watch. He plays within
Lincoln's system and that sounds common sensical. There's a guy
starting at quarterback for the Chicago Bears right now and
sometimes failed to do that and his talent just bailed
him out and he could do circus things. But also
it will drive you crazy as a coordinator, play caller,
(26:31):
head coach. But what are you gonna do? I mean,
you got a guy out there and he's got top
top half of first round NFL potential, and yet he's
just sort of winging it, not playing within your system.
And I've thought for a while, and I guarantee if
you got truth Seeruim in that staff, they're probably a
lot more comfortable with their quarterback situation right now because
they got a guy they developed, but they got a
guy that plays within their system because you can coach
(26:54):
around that, like you can game plan around that. The
other same thing with Milroe at Alabama last year. Game
plan around this. Right, that's right here we can deal
with right.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Finally, A and M beats Notre Dame. I was surprised,
were you?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I was in a boat where I wasn't shot. I
was mildly surprised. I was surprised at the game script
more so than anything. Two games last week Georgia Tennessee
A and m Notre Dame, both of them get into
the forties and I didn't really see that coming. I
just thought to myself, you know, I went to college
station in the spring, and all they're talking about is, boy,
(27:32):
we got that Notre Dame game early in the season
and this right here, and we know they're that, and
we think we can be that. That's when we'll go
prove it. And we got a three headed monster tailback.
Look at this offensive line. So I'm thinking to myself,
nineteen seventy four style football, and it did not unfold
that way. And so what you end up having to do.
(27:53):
Colin Kleines, the offensive coordinator there no I remember sitting
there talking to him in the spring and he said,
I'll tell you one thing we're going to have. We're
going to have an increased vertical element in our passing
game if our quarterback can execute it. Because they knew
they hit hit on those transfer portal receivers. Those guys
are monsters. One of them was kind of hurt last
year Conceptciance, Well, he's back craver as a monster. He said,
(28:14):
if we if we got a guy that can pull
the trigger, we'll have that. Well, they turns out they
needed it in week three and they need to trade
points and they need to come from behind, and that
was what surprised me that they were able to sort
of on the fly. It's the same way with Kirby
at Georgia. But Kirby's been there a long time. So
when that game got uncomfortable for Georgia fans last week
(28:34):
and the other guys scoring an uncomfortable amount of points,
they're totally comfortable being uncomfortable as a team. A and
M hasn't proven that, so they don't have that equity.
They don't have that benefit of the doubt in my mind,
and they totally earned it the other night. But that
is such a huge feather in the cap because there's
always been this crowd anytime I talk about Texas A
and M.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Oh it's the great underachiever in the sport.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
It's the yes, it's it's yes bar none. But people
say Arizona State, let me counter with Texas A and M.
Because I always ask the people that tell me they
cannot cannot, cannot, which I believe is just have not
disguised as cannot. I ask, what is it you need
to win big time in this sport that they don't have.
I already know the answer. Nothing. They just don't have
(29:18):
the Wikipedia page because they have fantastically fumbled higher after
hire after hire, and they don't really know what greatness
looks like. So they sometimes get confused into thinking they've
got it and they don't have it. Mike Elko, though,
I will tell you this now, when he came there
from Duke, a lot of the personnel people hit me
up from around college football and they said, don't know
(29:39):
if it's going to work. Personalities could clash all this,
and that A and M just hired the best evaluator
and developer that we've seen in quite a while. And
these are guys who cover the entire sport. And so
you know, you get there and you get all that money,
and you have the apparatus to go sign top ten classes,
go get guys out of the portal. But notice, unlike Jimbo, notice,
(30:01):
over the next couple of years, the progression and the
development of guys on A and m's roster, the ones
who get better. There's some notable exceptions out there right
now of teams that returned to a bunch of starters
and they're no different than they were last year. The
mark of a program that's got big time upward mobility
is their returning starters are actually better than they were
(30:21):
last year, which sounds like it's easy to do. It's
not easy to do. That I think will be a
hallmark of their program. Like, I don't think they're going anywhere.
I think they're going to be in the mix for
quite a while.
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(32:23):
You know Brian, I like Brian Kelly. I've said, I
remember when urban melted down with a media in Florida,
and I've seen it. College basketball coaches do it. And
I've said, you know, you don't see it in the
NFL much because you're in a big city. The media
is tough everywhere, and you also have an owner above
you that you don't want to embarrass the franchise. But
(32:44):
in college football, the coach is often the highest paid
state employee you can really control practice. The media is
small town, so you get into kind of this kind
of power vacuum where you kind of are the biggest
guy in the state and you kind of get into
your ego and Brian was got very tribal and protective
and it you know, he doesn't have a natty. It
(33:07):
took him a while to get it rolling. There was
the incident where the student died on campus. Like there's
there's a lot of stuff here with Brian Kelly. He's
not always the most likable. There was the fake Southern
accent or whatever it is. But I still contend that
I don't know if he has the relentless recruiting energy
(33:27):
he used to do. I like Brian Kelly, but I
but I found the media historically plays favorites. For years
they were tough on hardball, and I'd be like, guys,
he got the Super Bowl, I know how bad Stanford was.
He can coach. Take a deep breath. I think Brian
Kelly's a top twelve coach. Am I misguided? Is nobody
(33:50):
yet buys him in the SEC because LSU has been
when they have the right coach, they're great. I don't know,
how what do you if you had to grade him
at LSU?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Where would you be about a bus B minus to be?
I think look first off, I love BK as well,
so he's never rubbed me the wrong way. I mean,
I've gotten along great with him. I think that he
walked in there, like I told you twenty minutes ago,
and there has always been a very very unique connection culturally,
(34:20):
just the fabric of Louisiana and LSU football that I
don't think you can fully appreciate it unless you've been
down there for.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
A long That's right, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
And he walked in and his attitude, Frankly, I can't
blame him for having because I think I would have
been the same way if I were him, I would
have walked in and said, basically, I'm Brian Kelly. I
know what I'm doing. I know what the formula to
win is. And contrary to what you people think, the
formula to win in South Bend is the same as
it is here. Get good players, develop them by into
the process we define around here, and we'll win. And
(34:52):
I think he heard about Louisiana, this Louisiana that to
the point where he almost wanted to prove a point.
And when I tell you, he flushed Louisiana out of
that buil. I mean some people that it wouldn't have
mattered whether they stayed or went desk receptionist. No, you're
from thibodeau By, So he flushed that place of Louisiana. Now,
it wouldn't have mattered if they won immediately, right, they didn't,
(35:14):
And because they didn't, internally and culturally down there, that's
been held over his head. Now on Saturdays, they're fully
behind him, all right, In recruiting weekends, they're fully behind him.
But there are a lot of people that haven't. I
told you so attitude towards Brian Kelly his own state
because he did that well organizationally, university wise, they course
(35:35):
corrected collectively. I don't really think that decision was entirely
on his plate. If you get what I'm saying right,
you know, you bring Blake Baker down there as your
defensive coordinator, you bring Austin Thomas in as your GM.
These are people you cut them open and it's purple
and goal. And not only that, they're the best in
the world, some of the best in the world at
what they do. And it's no coincidence that LSU you
(35:55):
all of a sudden feel it, you can sense it.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
You could have since their defense their defense looks like
big boy defense, like like, I mean, that was the
thing last year. They were atrocious. So to me, I
never worried about Brian's offenses, like I think he'll always
figure those that he's rough on quarterbacks. But I Lasu's
defense is like Georgia when you got the right coach.
It's just all NFL players. It's eleven guys who will
(36:22):
eventually plan on Sunday.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, which was shocking that you have Jaden Daniels there
a couple of years ago, and if you told me
LSU was gonna have a Heisman Trophy caliber quarterback come through,
I just blindly say national championship. Tell me who the
coach is. I mean, I'm rolling out a top twenty
five defense if my mom's the DC there as long
as you're keeping in state kids in state. So for
that to have failed them was mind boggling. It's just
(36:47):
like Mario not being able to stop anything last year
at Miami with Cam Moore. It's crazy. So it's funny
that we've talked about this because I feel there's a
very very closely correlated story that's been told over the
past few years in college football about Brian Kelly and
Lincoln Riley. Ironically, the whispers were initially, oh, Lincoln may
(37:07):
take the LSU job. Well, then he winds up at USC.
So then LSU goes and gets Brian Kelly, and they
both had the wrong defensive coordinators at the outset, and
then they both corrected and now they're both massively improved defensively.
I just feel like the story arc is headed for
a playoff matchup one day. I just feel like, get
USCLSU one day. But I do agree with you, and
(37:31):
it's I don't think it's something that'll really be appreciated
by them unless he wins the national championship there because
everybody else this millennium has who's been the head coach
at LSU.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, I mean listen Ed Orgeron, who's a very funny guy.
I love. Ed does not consider a schematic, you know,
kingpin of the sport. He's a recruiter. I mean for
years I thought he was more of a position coach,
like a line coach than even a coordinator. Broke his
heart when he didn't get the USC job. And I
would argue today that LSU team with Burrows the most
(38:02):
talented I've ever seen period end of story. So I
mean they had the hardest schedule, won every game, So
if Ed can do it, and that's not a knock
like he's I mean Ed would be the first to
admit ed Ed never scheduled a bad time. Ed Ed
was a distracted, funny, great guy. But I think Brian's
(38:23):
too good of a coach. The older I get, I
tend to just look at people and if I have
to hire somebody or something at the volume, hire smart people.
They'll figure it out, as my rule, and I think
Brian it took him a while. I mean it just
it took a while. He couldn't get the accent down.
But eventually I think three years in, like, I feel
(38:43):
like they figured it out.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, they're one of the teams I'm looking most forward
to watching here. The SEC is just going to be
a bloodbath by the end of this thing, and they're
one that you know the Clemson game goes the way
it does. I was actually glad this week he publicized
the Garrett nuss injury because it's kind of been whispered
about in the South that nus Meyer had injury leading
up to that Week one game against Clemson. Like an
(39:07):
abdominal thing never got publicized, and they go and win
on the road, and then they were very lackluster in
Week two against an inferior opponent, and then week three,
Lagway turns the ball over five times and LSU wins
twenty to ten, and you can clearly tell, hey, we're undefeated.
Something feels a little off offensively right Way. Quarterback's been hurt,
(39:27):
that's what's been off. Here's the thing, though, there are
teams with healthy quarterbacks that are one and two right
now and you're three to zero. That's the surest sign
the defense is fixed.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yep, Josh Pate as always great stuff.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Man appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
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(40:06):
method Man for the twenty ten Divisional Round Jets and Patriots.
The underdog Jets stun Brady's fourteen and two Patriots it
was a huge playoff upset and a cat by Bart
Scott's unforgettable can't wait postgame interviews, so don't miss NFL
Classics After further review, It's Wednesdays at nine only on
Vice TV.
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Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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