Jason reacts live after the Indiana Pacers eliminated the New York Knicks in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals. He discusses the big games from Pascal Siakam and Tyrese Haliburton to beat Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns + how the Pacers match up in the NBA Finals vs. the Oklahoma City Thunder.
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Slash audio. All right, welcome to hoops tonight. You're at
(02:03):
the volume heavy Saturday. Everybody. Oh loo. If you guys
are having a great start to your weekend, well, we
have our twenty twenty five NBA Finals between the Oklahoma
City Thunder in the Indiana Pacers. As the tail end
of the series went more or less as I kind
of expected it would at the beginning of the series.
I thought that the Pacers would win in six. The
only thing that got kind of flipped around is the
(02:24):
Pacers stole an extra game in New York and the
Knicks stole an extra game in Indiana. But the Knicks
actually came out and brought a decent amount of fight
through the first two quarters, dominated the offensive glass, but
way too many mistakes throughout, especially in their transition defense,
especially with like miss free throws and just turnovers things
along those lines. And ultimately, the team that was more
(02:45):
disciplined and that had a kind of a more attention
to detail throughout the season and a team that practiced
playing a sharper brand of basketball got the job done.
And we're gonna be talking about that. Off the top,
we'll talk a little bit about the game itself, We'll
look let ahead to the NBA Finals for a little bit.
We'll talk about the Knicks and just some of my
frustrations with them and what the future looks like. And
(03:06):
then at the tail end of the show, we'll take
ten to fifteen minutes of questions from our chats. Make
sure you guys get some questions in the chat. You guys
are the job before we get started. Subscribe to the
Hoops to Night YouTube channels you don't miss any more
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(03:27):
great work on our social media feeds on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,
and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there, and
last but not least, keep dropping those questions in the
chat so that we can get to them at the
tail end of the show. When we finish here tonight,
we're going to be moving over to Playback that's playback
dot tv slash Hoops Tonight. There we're going to be
taking callers, watching some film, just hanging out kind of
like an inful role basketball hour that we have as
(03:50):
the Hoops Tonight community, just kind of having fun. We
bring fans up from the teams that we got some
Pacers fans that I'm looking forward to having their moment tonight.
If you guys want to join us over there, just
go to playback dot tv slash Hoops tonight as soon
as we finish here on YouTube. All right, let's talk
some basketball. So I want to start by just saying
congratulations to the Pacers and to Pacers fans. This is
(04:12):
a huge deal making it to the finals. If you
don't think so, all you have to do is look
around in recent NBA history and look at how inconsistent
anybody's been in terms of getting to the finals since
Katie left the Warriors. And one of the things that
I think has stood out to me in a big
way in this particular playoff run is these two teams
that have made it. They're obviously talent. There's talent involved,
(04:34):
right even with Indiana, like Pascal Siakam's a hell of
a player, Tyres Haliburn is a hell of a player,
nem Hardnee Smith, Turner going to the bench, getting contributions
from guys like Thomas Bryant, Nobi Toppa. We're gonna be
talking about all these guys today. But I would say
the Pacers are not necessarily the most talented roster in
the league in terms of just overwhelming talent. The Thunder
definitely have a lot of talent, but they're not, you know,
(04:58):
like what the Celtics were last year in terms of
like just a bunch of like certified, like six like
certified high level veteran starters that have been in wars
and that have been super experienced through previous playoff runs
and like the specifically looking at the compared to other
(05:18):
like super talented teams in recent NBA history, like the
Kevin Durant Warriors, or like Lebron Dwayne Wade, Chris Boshet,
they're not on that level. But they just put together
one of the most dominant seasons through to the end
of the Conference finals that we've seen in recent NBA history.
And it's a casual reminder for all of us that
(05:39):
when you play great basketball, it makes it a lot
easier to win. Like, make no mistake, guys, this series
was won. This series Pacers Knicks was one on the margins.
The Pacers scored more than twice as many points off
of turnovers in this series than the Knicks did before tonight,
(06:00):
and then they put the nail in the coffin with
a thirty four point in transition night point off of
turnover night thirty four points off of turnovers for the Pacers,
thirteen points off of turnovers for the Knicks. Gigantic margin.
And as far as like any sort of you know, oh,
or we're selling out to the offensive glass. That's why
(06:21):
we're not getting and we're not getting back in transition,
And we're gonna talk a little bit about that with
the Knicks in a little bit as they put together
quite possibly the most embarrassing night of transition defense I've
ever watched is the Pacers in a must win elimination
game just got leak out after leak out after leakout.
But like whatever offensive rebound advantage there was coming into tonight,
the Knicks got just two and a half points more
(06:43):
on second chance points than the Pacers did. The Pacers
dominated this series on the margins. Talent goes a long way,
I would argue on paper, this Knicks team is flat
out more talented than the Pacers, which is why we
talked about when the Knicks were at their best. They
(07:03):
actually had moments in this series where they looked like
a better team. Brief moments, but moments. But that's not
all that goes into making a good basketball team. You
have to win by playing great basketball. It doesn't matter
who's on the floor. If you're not playing great basketball,
you're not going to win. And talent can bring a
(07:24):
certain amount of great basketball to the table by sheer
force of competitive will and that talent. But it can't
cross all the boxes. It can't do all the things
that you need to do to win games. I talked
about coming into tonight. If you guys, remember I said,
I know what to expect from the Pacers. I know
(07:45):
they're going to pick up full court and bring just
a hillacious defensive effort. Andrew and Emhart tonight just like
single handedly chop the head off the Knicks offense all
night by just making Jalen Brunson's life a living hell.
All of those turnovers are forced by that ball pressure,
by playing passing lanes, by maintaining a simple defensive identity
(08:08):
that this team has had for damn near six months now.
This is who they are. This is what they do
every single game. Oh you scored, we don't care, We're
already running. You see it, Like when you watch the Pacers,
you can see it when a dude gets an advantage
and goes all the way in for a layup, dudes
are already starting running the other way because they know
(08:30):
they have an opportunity to erase that quickly with a
kick ahead pass. There is even just down the stretch
of the game, just the quick whirling actions at the
top of the key, two man action, three man action,
steady diet of Tyrese Haliburton on ball, like picking catapart
with floaters, making simple reads to guys slipping out of
screens like ob topping out to the top of the
(08:52):
key or Obi topping slipping down the lane for a dunk.
Just easy read, Oh, cat's too far, or cats coming
up to the level and putting two on the ball.
We're just gonna drop it back to Obi top in
that's top of the key for three. Oh cats up
at the level and they're not tagging the low man,
and we're running a stack action and someone's slipping to
the top of the key topp ens rolling hit him
with the bounce pass. He's dunking it with one hand.
(09:14):
There is a steady basketball identity that has been built
out from the top down with the pacers that carries
them into a situation where then their talent can put
them over the top. And yes, there have been moments
Aaron E. Smith's shooting in Game one, right, Tyre's Halliburton
throughout the series, Pascal Siakam tonight, just getting bucket after bucket.
(09:36):
There's a lot of talent there, but the talent is
put in position to succeed because the Pacers have put
in the work to make themselves an extremely sharp and
discipline basketball team. Let me just put it to you
in a very basic way. Teams that don't get back
in transition and give up layup lines off of made
(09:56):
baskets are not champion basketball teams. They are not champions.
Champions don't do that. Champions don't make silly, sloppy mistakes
over over and over again. They don't make fixable mistakes
over and over again. They identify their mistakes, they rectify them.
I'd argue this was in Game six, the worst transition
(10:19):
defense night that the Knicks had several possessions where all
five dudes are south of the free throw line, meaning
there's nobody up at the top of the key ready
in back court balance. I saw multiple examples a couple
of guys that have caught Landry Shaman and Mitchell Robinson
in situations where they're back, but they're not paying attention
and someone's behind them. Like, that's basic stuff. Ball rim
(10:43):
spread out to shooters. That's literally the process of transition defense.
If you have your balance set, meaning as if you've
got a driver and a roller coming off the top
of the key, you have your guys relocate off the
corner so that there's somebody north of the foul line
that can get back in transition. This is basic stuff. Guys.
We teach this in high school. This is not advanced
(11:04):
basketball schematics. Floor balance, get back, stop ball, protect the
rim at the very least make them make a three.
But I mean there were there was a missed free throw,
a miss free throw for the Knicks. I think it
was kat where the Pacers just swung the ball off
(11:24):
the floor and got a wide open three for Aeronniemith
on a free throw. That that is just straight up
not a championship basketball team. You don't see the Pacers
making those kinds of mistakes. You don't see the Thunder
making those kinds of mistakes. And it's just a casual reminder,
Like we can talk about player movement this summer, we
(11:49):
can talk about theoretical theoretical basketball fit for Yannis with
Victor woman Yama on the Spurs and the Knicks. We
could talk about with the Knicks, like what if they
trade Cat for Kde or something like that. None of
it matters if you don't use the regular season to
(12:10):
practice playing great basketball, because ultimately it's gonna be what
decides your fate. The Knicks had so many chances to
win this game. Thirty four points off of turnovers, you're
dead on a rival. I just thought it was such
an interesting juxtaposition in this series, two teams, very talented.
(12:31):
Nick's probably more talented Knicks when they're at their best,
look a little bit better. Didn't matter because the Pacers
were steady. The Pacers were steady and played Pacers basketball
and just waited for the Knicks to soil themselves, and
inevitably they did. Yeah, it doesn't matter who you are.
You can run the floor. It doesn't matter who you are.
(12:53):
You can do these basic things that Rick Carlisle has
these guys doing on every single possession, and you will
grab a ton of low hanging fruit and you're gonna
give yourself a great chance to win games. Pascal Siakam
was absolutely amazing tonight. He's a classic example of what
I'm talking about with those runouts. Sorry, the ESPN website
(13:15):
isn't pulling up the box score, is gonna just play
an ad. There's a There's this thing that Pascal Siakam
has been doing this entire postseason, just pushing the ball
up the floor, like every time that there's any sort
of opportunity, he's leaking out and it's just they're throwing
it to him like he's a wide receiver run in
his street and he's just catching it and making a
quick move against some one on one or maybe getting
(13:36):
a dunk. He gets all sorts of opportunities like that,
the pick and pop action, just hitting important threes at
the top of the key, the quick ISOs, the quick
turnarounds over both shoulders, the getting to the foul line. Like,
Siakam was an absolute monster tonight. Andrew Nemhard was doing
such a good job on Jalen Brunson. You could literally
see the frustration building to like a fever pitch. I
(13:57):
was texting Jackson during the game. I was like, We're
like one more hard bump in like a fifteen point
game from this turning into some sort of physical altercation
between Brunson and Nemhard because they were like jawn at
each other. But that's the thing Nemhard like, I admire
the hell out of this from basketball players. Nedmar had
a rough series offensively, couldn't make a shot to save
(14:18):
his life. A lot of like uncharacteristic decisions on drives
and in the decision zone, kind of there in the
middle of the floor. But like, what do I always say?
What do I always say? Just make a play, find
a way to do something that helps your team win
the game. And Aaron Nesmiths having an ankle issue. I
don't know if that was the reason why they did
the switch today or if Nemhar just straight up went
(14:39):
to Rick Carlisle and said, Hey, I'm sucking on offense
right now. Give me something where I can like pour
my heart and soul into it and try to make
something happen. But he just did as good a job
guarding of one of the best point guards in the
league as you'll see. And then you could tell he
was leaving a jump shot short. Then he has two
massive threes in the second half, and on those threes,
(14:59):
you can you'd literally see Nemhard like dip super low,
even though he's wide open. You could see him dip
super low to get his legs into the shot, and
it's like, just make one, just make one, and then
it doesn't matter that he had a rough series. No
one cares about Nemhart having a rough series now because
in Game six he locked Jalen Brunton up and hit
(15:22):
a couple of huge baskets down the stretch, a couple
of big drop coverage shots too. Like he stayed in
it mentally, never let go of the rope, and found
a way to leave a lasting imprint on the series.
But before it was done, Obi top In I thought
there were several key sequences tonight where he made plays
that kind of were like, uh, like what I would
(15:43):
consider like ceiling raising type of plays were not necessarily
in the flow of the game, but like shots that
are being conceded and you have no choice but to
beat the coverage by knocking down those shots. Big pick
and pop three at the top of the key late
that role, late in the game, there was a three
that he hit kind of off of movement in the
I think it was an early second quarter where there's
a really good defensive possession from the Knicks where everybody's
(16:05):
doing all the right stuff, and then I think Kat
was lazy on one little dho at the top of
the key and he just rises and fires from like
twenty six feet off the move, rises up and knocks
it down. His run, his lane running and transition all
series long. He was awesome. Thomas Bryant three massive threes
out of the corners in this game tonight. Every single
one of them felt like a huge shotgun blast to
(16:27):
the chest for the Knicks, just massive, massive shots. And
then I thought, Tyre's Halliburton. You know, he's been facing
the brunt of the aggressive aggression in the Knicks coverages
in this series and like taking simple reads like they're
in that second half, he really started to assert himself
in control of the offense and like, oh, you're leaving
Topping on the pop, I'm gonna hit this. Oh you're
(16:49):
leaving Topping on the role, I'm gonna hit this. Okay,
you're gonna let me operate in this soft ass February
drop coverage. I'm just gonna hit floater after floater after
floater out that Halliburton was fantastic, just a just a
wired to wire, super super impressive playoff run from the Pacers,
and now they're in the final.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
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Speaker 2 (17:43):
Now, looking ahead to the finals, I think the first
key is going to be managing ball pressure, as you guys.
As you guys have seen in this series, there have
been several stretches where the Nicks did some damage to
the Pacers with their ball pressure. The thunder Age is
way better at it. They've got better defenders, more of
the better matchups too. They're not like big lanky dudes
(18:03):
that are not necessarily as quick footed as Tyre's Halliburton.
They've got guys that are quicker than Tyres Haliburton. That'll
be on him the entire series, and so everything's going
to be about managing that ball pressure. I think it's
going to be vitally important for the Pacers to have
success attacking in the post through Pascal Siakam and Myles Turner.
(18:27):
One of the reasons why is if Haliburton does his job,
which is handle the ball pressure, doesn't turn the ball over,
and OKASE is super aggressive with their coverages two on
the ball, packing the paint, playing passing lanes, and Haliburton
makes the passes and the Pacers shoot them out of it.
Mark Dagnaut will default two more switching and to staying
(18:52):
home off ball, and in that series, in that setting,
it is no longer a Haliburton series in terms of
ISO scoring the advantage. Again, the Thunders, they're small on
the perimeter and so it's gotta be Siakam and as
we saw in the Minnesota series and in the Denver series,
it's extremely difficult to make post entries against the Thunder.
(19:13):
They three quarter front, they full front, they bracket from behind,
They do all sorts of stuff to make that passing
angle difficult. And if OKC goes to switching and goes
to staying home. The key to the series will be
getting the ball to Siakam to turner deep seals, and
then that being the entry point either high quality two's
(19:34):
right at the front of the rim or drawing multiple
defenders to get the defense in rotation. Ultimately, if you
want the Pacers to play Pacers basketball, they're gonna have
to manage ball pressure and they're gonna have to move
the ball efficiently through Oklahoma City's aggressive defense, and it's
gonna be a very very different challenge. I look at
this series as a particularly tough one for the Pacers
early on because they are just not exposed to this
(19:57):
level of defense yet. The Bucks out obviously, We're horrendous
all year, The Knicks were horrendous all year, The Cavs sneaky,
were mediocre on defense for basically the second half of
the year. This is arguably the greatest defense that we've
seen in recent NBA history. So it's going to be
a very very different sort of challenge for them. But
they do in theory. What do I always say, what
(20:18):
do you need to beat Oklahoma City's defense? You need size,
you need playmaking, and you need shooting. And they do
have the size it just comes in the form of Siakam, right.
They have tons of playmaking talent and everyone can shoot,
but it's in a matchup where the Pacers typically have
a lot of success with their guard play TJ McConnell,
(20:40):
Tyrese Halliburn, Andrew Nemhart, even Niesmith to a certain extent,
Ben Mathern. In a series like this, those guys don't
have the advantage all of a sudden. It's going to
be a lot of pressure on Siakam to be that
guy who's initiating the offense with size and then as
a team playmaking out of it in finishing plays by
knocking down shots, handling game plan tweaks. As I said,
(21:04):
I think Dagnault will come out with their base pressure
scheme and load up scheme, but I think it's very
possible that they pivot out of that and the Pacers
are going to have to have some different punches in
their bag guarding she. On the other end of the floor,
we saw the Timberwolves have more success in their series
with quicker defenders on say, kind of like more of
(21:24):
a beating him to spot style of approach and forcing
him to shoot over the top the Pacers have lots
of guys that can do that. The Pacers, in theory
have personnel that matches up reasonably well with Oklahoma City.
I'm actually a lot more bullish on the Pacers' ability
to get stops against Oklahoma City that am on their
ability to score, which is hilarious considering the strength of
(21:45):
this Pacers team is their offense. But guarding Shee again,
it's going to be a steady diet of Nie Smith
and Nemhart and TJ McConnell beating him to spots, not
getting handsy to where you can get in trouble with
the whistle, and then forcing him into a bunch of
mid range jump shots and then forcing kickouts again. The
finals are stressful, totally different setting, totally different level of intensity,
(22:08):
totally different media presence, totally different production quality. It is
a foreign entity compared to the rest of the NBA Playoffs.
There's a lot of young dudes in that Thunder locker room,
and so you have to for Shae to pass and
force these young, inexperienced players to knock down, catch and
shoot jump shots. We are going to start I'm going
(22:30):
to start watching film for Pacers. Thunder tomorrow morning. We
will have a bunch of preview content coming out on Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday next week. I will keep you guys posted as
soon as we have a more firm schedule. But keep
an eye on my Twitter feed tomorrow morning because I'll
probably be watching some of that film and just kind
of tweeting out little things that I find interesting. But
(22:51):
we will have our first bit of finals coverage starting
on Monday on the Knicks front. Before we get to
our mailbag. To put it very simply, we can talk
about what they want to do with the roster. I
think Karl Anthony Towns has proven pretty resoundingly to this
point that he is a guy that has a certain ceiling.
That ceiling is he is inconsistent as an offensive player
(23:14):
and downright bad as a defensive player as the leverage
and intensity of the situation gets higher later in the playoffs.
And this is back to back years in the conference
finals where I can almost like specifically point to him
as a big part of why they lost, and it's
there are just certain guys that are not built for
(23:34):
this style of basketball, in this sort of setting, and
to have a salary slot as large as cats for
a player that is as damaging as he was as
they were just picking him a part on defense in
this game, way too deep in his drop, sometimes active
up high but giving up easy pocket passes. At other
times he's a brutal part of their bad transition defense.
(23:56):
It's all of the above. So we can talk about
pivot off of Cat, and that's what I would do.
I would pivot off of Cat and I would build
around defense around Brunson. This has to be a sharper, better,
deeper defensive team. All that's fine. None of it matters
if you don't play a sharper brand of basketball. And
some of this is on tips. Tom Thibodeau is the
(24:20):
coach of this team, and by the sixth game of
the series, his team looked like it had no idea
how to handle the Pacers in transition. And it wasn't like,
oh my god, they're pushing the ball off the floor
and we're doing our job, but they're just putting us
in a blender of quick transition action. No, these are
wide open, kick ahead, leak out dunks and wide open
kickout threes. There is a reality with Tom Thibodeau that
(24:46):
he trusts the top end of his roster so much
that he leans on them so heavily that it's kind
of impossible for him to be as detail oriented as
he needs to be. How could you be that detail
oriented when a guy's playing forty something minutes a night.
There's too many opportunities for fatigue to enter into the equation.
(25:08):
The Knicks have to, regardless of what roster changes are made,
starting in early October next year, culturally, from the top down,
embrace a sharper and more detail oriented brand of basketball.
You lost your opportunity to go to the finals this
year because you were an undisciplined team, not because you
didn't have the talent to hang with the Pacers. Easy
(25:32):
way to do that be more willing to use your bench.
From day one, we're running a nine to ten man rotation.
Here are basic defensive principles. Does that mean you need
to pick a full court all series or all season. No,
but come up with some basic things. We are going
to pressure the ball after half court at a bare minimum,
(25:54):
because that is an easy way to just make ball
handlers uncomfortable, which can have all sorts of trickle down
effects in the game. In general, I think the brunts
and bridges o g Nnobi specifically heart bridges and Anonoby
are just so good in transition. You got to try
to feed as many transition opportunities as possible. And you're
gonna do that with ball pressure at bare minimum, ball
(26:17):
pressure at half court at a bare minimum, a basic
set of like three different coverages that you trust and
man a man situations based with Brunson and with Cat
or whoever it is that you bring back, and then
attention to detail throughout the season, making sure that these
are sharp so you don't have breakdowns taking place in
the playoffs where like dudes are pointing at each other
like you're supposed to do this, You're supposed to do that.
(26:37):
You looked like that all season. Not surprised that you
looked like that when it came down when it came
time to get the job done in the playoffs. There
is a there is an order of operations to being
a champion, and it starts in October with attention to detail.
It's a mandatory tell me, tell me the time. Can
can anybody think of like a sloppy basketball team that
(26:59):
won the title. The Celtics last year weren't sloppy. The
Nuggets weren't sloppy in twenty twenty three, the Warriors weren't sloppy,
the Bucks weren't sloppy, the Lakers weren't sloppy. That's like
a that's literally a non negotiable. You cannot get to
the Promised Land if you practice playing sloppy basketball. So
regardless of what the Knicks do this summer, that is
(27:20):
a non negotiable. They need a basketball culture reset either.
Someone needs to sit down with TIBs and be like, hey, dude,
we got to change our approach. Stop riding everybody super
high minutes, extend your rotation, and actually start holding these
guys accountable to the details night in and night out
throughout the regular season. That way, we can be the
best version of ourselves when we get to June, when
(27:41):
we get to may Or, if he's not up for
it and you need to change a voice in the
locker room, make a move and bring in a coach
that can be the guy that highlights that low hanging fruit.
The Pacers aren't going anywhere. The Celtics are going to
be in a pivot year. Obviously, the Bucks are going
to be in a pivot year. Obviously. The East is
gonna be pretty open. But you're gonna be right back here,
(28:04):
maybe in round two, maybe in round three dealing with
the Pacers, And what am I gonna be saying? I
know what I'm getting from the Pacers because the Pacers
have a top down basketball identity, from Kevin Pritchard to
Rick Carlisle, all the way down that roster, starting with
Tyre's Halliburton. This is the way they play. They don't
cut corners, and so they are always the very best
(28:25):
version of themselves. And that's why they're going to the finals.
All right, Jackson's gonna come on. We're gonna take some questions.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Let's do it. First question, Pascal Siakam won Eastern Conference
Finals MVP. Do you feel like Halliburton got snubbed?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I'm gonna say no, just simply because there were stretches
of this series where Tyre's Halliburton was somewhat, you know,
disengaged as a product of the defensive scheme that he
was facing. And I did think Siakam was more or
less as good as Halliburton. It just manifests in different ways.
Like with Tyre's Halliburton, He's always going to be better
(29:00):
than what the box score will lead you to believe
simply because of the simply because of the advantage creation aspect.
But with Pascal Siakam, like he's been the guy who
they've leaned on for like, oh, this isn't working, we
need to create a shot, Like he's the guy. He's
the one guy who can go get a bucket. And
by the way, in the game to win thirty nine
(29:21):
points in the game, four win thirty points in the game,
six win thirty one points. So in three of their
four wins he had over thirty points. I'm not going
to call that a snub under any circumstances.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
He's such a stabilizer for them and such a floor razer.
It's it's hard to think about teams that have their
second best player. I think it's even though he was
you know, the series MVP Halliburn is their best player.
It's it's it's not that many examples of teams but
their second best player is such a stabilizer for them.
It's really interesting and impressive from his standpoint.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
He's a pretty consistent player too, with just the way
that he runs. I will say he was rough in
game five, and that was definitely unusual.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
One.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
The entire team was kind of bad in Game five,
but yeah, that was definitely bad. The I also thought
that he did a great job on Kat defensively tonight,
kept stonewalling him on those like volleyball drives and was
attacking the basketball and forcing him to lose control, like
Sacham was just awesome. And I think, I mean, we
can all admit this. I thought he'd like straight up,
flat out outplayed cat headhead in the series.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Yeah, definitely. And the I mean, we we on this
show and you are not expecting the Pacers to win
the finals, but if the Pacers win the finals, we're
gonna have to have some Pascal Siakam conversations as he
will now be the second best player on multiple different
championship teams with multiple franchises. Like that is not that
many people can say that.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
I think it's just a classic example of like the
simple dynamic that you and I have talked about so
many times over the season, and in terms of just
like the whole playoff riser thing is real and it
all comes down to some basic things to me, Like
there's a certain like size and strength element to it.
There's a certain versatile element to it. Those two things
(31:01):
are vital because in the playoffs it just gets so physical,
and teams game plan you, so if you don't have
if you have too many weaknesses to expose rather than
having a well rounded game, you'll run into issues. The
third part of it is I'm I'm a huge believer
that like, even amongst competitors, there's levels to competitiveness. I
always joke about this, but like I would much rather
(31:24):
play in terms of having a teammate a fox hole guy.
I would much rather play with a guy who hates
losing than a guy who loves basketball. Now, I want both,
and the best players of all time are always both.
But like I have a hard time relating to someone
that doesn't like get fucking mad about losing, like angry,
(31:44):
like viscerally upset about losing. Like to me, that emotion,
that hatred of losing is what drives a basketball player
to be detail oriented and to not cut corners and
to do all the things you've got to do, and like,
say what you want about you know some of these
dudes like Andrew nemhard for instance, but like there is
a there is like a sheer competitive fire, like he
(32:06):
wanted to embarrass Jalen Brunson tonight down the stretch Nemhart did,
and so like, yeah, like part of that playoff riser
thing to me is always going to be that competitiveness,
like do you have the will to fight more than
the guy across from you?
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Yeah, and the Pacers have. I mean, you could probably
say they've been a lot of their players, but specifically
three in their starting lineup. I think Nie Smith and
Nemhard and Pascal are all very much that type.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Of player classic playoff risers.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Uh super chat from jm Rciakam and Nie Smith the
key to beating Oka. See what would it take for
Indy to beat Okac four times?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I'm gonna say yes to both of those because I
think Nie Smith will be the primary matchup on Shay
and uh if if Nie Smith can prevent Shae from
getting easy dribble penetration so that it's not like you're
badly compromised right off the bat over and over again
with the screen navigation that he did in this series,
I think that would go a long way. Jada McDaniels
(33:04):
in the Conference finals, I thought did an awful job
of containing the ball in like in kind of a
way that was so weird to have me like rethinking
like defensive player archetypes, and Nie Smith is the kind
of archetype theoretically that is, like he is so laterally
quick that he should be able to at least as
long as he doesn't get screened, keep Shay reasonably in front.
(33:26):
If he does, then Shay is going to be throwing
kickouts to advantages that are like advantages but not like
the oh my god, he got super deep into the
paint and drew four bodies in and this is like
a standstill, close out opportunity kind of thing. So Nie
Smith is the key to the defensive matchup, and then
Siakom to me is the key of the offensive matchup.
(33:46):
Because I think there's a chance that Halliburton like straight
up folds right to start this series like that that's
on the table, like he's kind of done it against
Dort before and it could be something that becomes a problem.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
But either way, if Halliburton's fantastic to start the series
because of the coverages, I think Dagnaut will audible to
switching and to staying home, and if he does, it's
going to become a matchup attacking series, and it'll be
I'll take it a step further. It'll be it'll be
Nie Smith on Ball on Shay, It'll be Siakam attacking matchups.
(34:19):
And then I think another guy that I would put
as a key there is actually Ben Matherin, because I
think Ben Mathern is one of the few guys who
has the athleticism to like just to just break down
Oklahoma City's defense at the point of attack.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
That's a good segue into our next question, which is
who is the most important pacer on offense other than
Halliburton and Siaco offense only.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Okay, it'll be I want to take it a step
further because Mathern is obviously going to be in somewhat
of a limited role. I think Miles Turner hitting pick
and pop three's is such a huge, like foundational thing,
Like if he's not hitting pick and pop threes, then
you can run drop. If you can run drop or
I excuse me, not even drop, you can run at
the level. If if you can bring your big up
(35:02):
to the level and not have to worry about Turner
slipping out of the screen and hitting threes, that's that's
a huge that that's a huge upside to your defense.
So like Turner hitting pick and pop threes, I think
is huge. I would say down the roster shooting in general,
shooting against really good closeouts. I think mathurd would probably
fourth for me there, Like, I think Mathurin is going
(35:23):
to be huge like them Hard to me, like it
kind of is what he is. You know, I'm not
counting on him to be like the dominant force, but actually,
you know what, we should probably move them Hard up
because if Halliburton does kind of succumb to the dort thing,
Nemhard will be their point guard. And we looked in
the regular season and in the footage we watched them,
(35:44):
Hard was getting the ball over and over again.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, I was gonna say tonight it felt like because
of the ball pressure from Game five, it felt like
they ran a handful more of those stacks may pick
and rolls with Nemhard being the lead ball handle at
Haliburton being the third guy to sort of hopefully do
and I expect a lot of that, a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
I think that's gonna have to be there. One of
their pet actions in terms of like keeping them Halliburton
involved when he's being denied it did seem like Nemhard
got a little bit of his mojo back tonight, which
I think would be key.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, I agree. Next question, we'll take a couple more
before playback. When was the last time that you can remember,
if you can remember at all, that to both finals
teams played a ten to eleven man rotation. It's kind
of crazy that both teams are sort of following that
same model a little bit.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
I know. I like, well, the Celtics were like pretty
much running an eight man rotation last year. The Nuggets
ran a tight rotation, the Warriors ran a little bit
of a longer rotation. But I still think it was
like it was like eight or nine yes that year
because because it was like Looney and in Auto Porter
Junior Jordan Poole. Yeah, I don't I can't think of one. Yeah, dude,
(36:59):
that's that's that's crazy. Like, you know what's been interesting though,
is like we all have our ideologies and like I
even have like a list that I always give out
when someone says, like, oh, what's the best way to
build a basketball team, And I'm like, Okay, you want
a skill guard, you want an athlete guard, you want
a kind of a skinnier perimeter, perimeter wing, a bigger forward.
All that sounds great, but like you kind of two things. One,
(37:21):
you don't know what kind of roster you're gonnaend up getting,
and you kind of have to build your team around
what that roster is. And then two, like there are
more there is more than one way to win a
basketball game. They're just they're flat out is and so
like what's super fascinating is like you can win a
basketball game being the Indiana Pacers picking up full court,
playing at absurd pace and blah blah blah. You could
(37:42):
also win a basketball game being like the Dallas Mavericks
last year and like walking the ball up the court
with Luca and just like methodically walking teams now with
half court offense, Like there's there's more than one way
to skin a cat, so to speak like that. It
just is it's fascinating to me that we've seen these
two particular of their team's matchup, because it kind of
felt very war of attritiony at times in this postseason.
(38:05):
And these are the younger, deeper teams that play this
like kind of hillacious style, but they also don't tax
any of their players that much because they keep Fitts down.
Like it's kind of like a super fascinating concept. I
want to emphasize too, there are guys in these rotations that, like,
if they were playing for your team, you probably wouldn't
think they're as good as they look on the pacers,
(38:26):
So like, don't don't underestimate the organizational element of making
depth useful. Like like I like I watched Jordan Goodwin
be okay and in other situations, but I watched him
with the Lakers be fantastic because he's on a team
that just needed an athletic guard that can do basic
stuff like you need you need to like with your roster,
(38:47):
draft players and go after players that fit an identity
that matches your team so that in the regular season,
whether you're using the fifteenth man or the eighth man,
there's like this role that just like makes sense in
your offense that like this guy's like to Obi Topping
comes in and plays the same role that Siakam plays
like literally and and it's a rough approximation of it,
(39:12):
but he comes in and does the same thing. And
because he has some useful skills that kind of fit
into that role, it makes him a useful player, like
I don't think it's a coincidence that Landry Shammitt looked
useful in this series. Like land there are a lot
of players like Lanzer Shammitt out there in the league
that can play playoff minutes for you, as long as
you set up the appropriate structure for them to thrive in.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
We'll take two more questions. This one's a super chat
for Matt. Thank you for the super chat, he says.
He says, not an NBA expert, but there seems to
be some sort of intangible switch or crunch time magic
to this Pacers team that I can't put my finger on.
Is that crazy? What can you attribute that to?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
So I do Okay, I I think I'm gonna this
is complicated because I think, on the one hand, I
think it has as much to do with the other
team letting go of the rope as it does with
them them hitting a switch. I do think that they
feel the magic a little bit like you could feel
it in Game one, Like you could feel it in
Game one where it's like, oh, like they know, they're
like we've done this before, We're gonna do it again. Yeah,
(40:11):
there's definitely a little bit of like they feel the magic.
But at the same time, like I would equate it to,
they play the same way no matter what, regardless of
the time in the game. And there is a natural
human nature piece when a team goes up by ten
to fifteen points in the final four or five minutes
where they just naturally relax, and that when you relax
while the Pacers are still playing Pacers basketball just kind
(40:33):
of naturally manifest in these like easy runouts and easy
quick buckets, and that's more or less the genesis of it.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, last question before we go over to playback, and
next question, if you had to pick one big change
for the next this summer between these two, would you,
Jason Timp choose to trade Cat or fire Tips have.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
To choose one, have to choose one. I think I
trade Cat. So this is complicated, but like, do you
remember when in it was like Game three or four
when Stam Van Gundy dropped that line about how like
teams run because of their point guard, not because of
their coach. Again, I don't necessarily think that's true, but
(41:17):
I do think there's some truth to it in the
sense that, like I watched, I've watched as a guy
who's rooted for Lebron a lot over the years, Like
I've watched Lebron have success with mediocre coaches because of
his ability as an on court presence to bring the accountability,
to bring the intensity in the in the experience and
all that kind of stuff and even the decision making.
(41:39):
I feel like trading Cat has a far greater potential
to bring back useful players that fit within the identity
of this team then getting rid of TIBs and just
bringing in some new voice and seeing if that guy
can fix all their problems. I think I do think
that I do think that there needs to be like
a sit down with Tis though in emphasize like and
(42:02):
I would point out the obvious stuff with Delawn Wright
and in Landra Shamant and be like, hey, like we
have to kind of embrace the times and realize this
is a faster, more transition oriented game. We need to
go deeper into our bench. All right, guys, that's all
we have for tonight. On YouTube, We're heading over to
playback again. That's playback dot tv slash Oops tonight. We'll
be taking callers and questions and stuff for at least
(42:24):
forty five minutes or so, so make sure you guys
head over there. We'll see you guys in just a
few minutes. And for the YouTube crowd, we will be
back on Monday morning with our first bit of NBA
Finals preview content. We'll see you guys then. What's up guys?
As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting
OOPS tonight. They would actually be really helpful for us
if you guys would take a second and leave a
(42:45):
rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys
supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
The volume
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
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Slash audio. All right, welcome to hoops tonight. You're at
(02:03):
the volume heavy Saturday. Everybody. Oh loo. If you guys
are having a great start to your weekend, well, we
have our twenty twenty five NBA Finals between the Oklahoma
City Thunder in the Indiana Pacers. As the tail end
of the series went more or less as I kind
of expected it would at the beginning of the series.
I thought that the Pacers would win in six. The
only thing that got kind of flipped around is the
(02:24):
Pacers stole an extra game in New York and the
Knicks stole an extra game in Indiana. But the Knicks
actually came out and brought a decent amount of fight
through the first two quarters, dominated the offensive glass, but
way too many mistakes throughout, especially in their transition defense,
especially with like miss free throws and just turnovers things
along those lines. And ultimately, the team that was more
(02:45):
disciplined and that had a kind of a more attention
to detail throughout the season and a team that practiced
playing a sharper brand of basketball got the job done.
And we're gonna be talking about that. Off the top,
we'll talk a little bit about the game itself, We'll
look let ahead to the NBA Finals for a little bit.
We'll talk about the Knicks and just some of my
frustrations with them and what the future looks like. And
(03:06):
then at the tail end of the show, we'll take
ten to fifteen minutes of questions from our chats. Make
sure you guys get some questions in the chat. You guys
are the job before we get started. Subscribe to the
Hoops to Night YouTube channels you don't miss any more
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(03:27):
great work on our social media feeds on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,
and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there, and
last but not least, keep dropping those questions in the
chat so that we can get to them at the
tail end of the show. When we finish here tonight,
we're going to be moving over to Playback that's playback
dot tv slash Hoops Tonight. There we're going to be
taking callers, watching some film, just hanging out kind of
like an inful role basketball hour that we have as
(03:50):
the Hoops Tonight community, just kind of having fun. We
bring fans up from the teams that we got some
Pacers fans that I'm looking forward to having their moment tonight.
If you guys want to join us over there, just
go to playback dot tv slash Hoops tonight as soon
as we finish here on YouTube. All right, let's talk
some basketball. So I want to start by just saying
congratulations to the Pacers and to Pacers fans. This is
(04:12):
a huge deal making it to the finals. If you
don't think so, all you have to do is look
around in recent NBA history and look at how inconsistent
anybody's been in terms of getting to the finals since
Katie left the Warriors. And one of the things that
I think has stood out to me in a big
way in this particular playoff run is these two teams
that have made it. They're obviously talent. There's talent involved,
(04:34):
right even with Indiana, like Pascal Siakam's a hell of
a player, Tyres Haliburn is a hell of a player,
nem Hardnee Smith, Turner going to the bench, getting contributions
from guys like Thomas Bryant, Nobi Toppa. We're gonna be
talking about all these guys today. But I would say
the Pacers are not necessarily the most talented roster in
the league in terms of just overwhelming talent. The Thunder
definitely have a lot of talent, but they're not, you know,
(04:58):
like what the Celtics were last year in terms of
like just a bunch of like certified, like six like
certified high level veteran starters that have been in wars
and that have been super experienced through previous playoff runs
and like the specifically looking at the compared to other
(05:18):
like super talented teams in recent NBA history, like the
Kevin Durant Warriors, or like Lebron Dwayne Wade, Chris Boshet,
they're not on that level. But they just put together
one of the most dominant seasons through to the end
of the Conference finals that we've seen in recent NBA history.
And it's a casual reminder for all of us that
(05:39):
when you play great basketball, it makes it a lot
easier to win. Like, make no mistake, guys, this series
was won. This series Pacers Knicks was one on the margins.
The Pacers scored more than twice as many points off
of turnovers in this series than the Knicks did before tonight,
(06:00):
and then they put the nail in the coffin with
a thirty four point in transition night point off of
turnover night thirty four points off of turnovers for the Pacers,
thirteen points off of turnovers for the Knicks. Gigantic margin.
And as far as like any sort of you know, oh,
or we're selling out to the offensive glass. That's why
(06:21):
we're not getting and we're not getting back in transition,
And we're gonna talk a little bit about that with
the Knicks in a little bit as they put together
quite possibly the most embarrassing night of transition defense I've
ever watched is the Pacers in a must win elimination
game just got leak out after leak out after leakout.
But like whatever offensive rebound advantage there was coming into tonight,
the Knicks got just two and a half points more
(06:43):
on second chance points than the Pacers did. The Pacers
dominated this series on the margins. Talent goes a long way,
I would argue on paper, this Knicks team is flat
out more talented than the Pacers, which is why we
talked about when the Knicks were at their best. They
(07:03):
actually had moments in this series where they looked like
a better team. Brief moments, but moments. But that's not
all that goes into making a good basketball team. You
have to win by playing great basketball. It doesn't matter
who's on the floor. If you're not playing great basketball,
you're not going to win. And talent can bring a
(07:24):
certain amount of great basketball to the table by sheer
force of competitive will and that talent. But it can't
cross all the boxes. It can't do all the things
that you need to do to win games. I talked
about coming into tonight. If you guys, remember I said,
I know what to expect from the Pacers. I know
(07:45):
they're going to pick up full court and bring just
a hillacious defensive effort. Andrew and Emhart tonight just like
single handedly chop the head off the Knicks offense all
night by just making Jalen Brunson's life a living hell.
All of those turnovers are forced by that ball pressure,
by playing passing lanes, by maintaining a simple defensive identity
(08:08):
that this team has had for damn near six months now.
This is who they are. This is what they do
every single game. Oh you scored, we don't care, We're
already running. You see it, Like when you watch the Pacers,
you can see it when a dude gets an advantage
and goes all the way in for a layup, dudes
are already starting running the other way because they know
(08:30):
they have an opportunity to erase that quickly with a
kick ahead pass. There is even just down the stretch
of the game, just the quick whirling actions at the
top of the key, two man action, three man action,
steady diet of Tyrese Haliburton on ball, like picking catapart
with floaters, making simple reads to guys slipping out of
screens like ob topping out to the top of the
(08:52):
key or Obi topping slipping down the lane for a dunk.
Just easy read, Oh, cat's too far, or cats coming
up to the level and putting two on the ball.
We're just gonna drop it back to Obi top in
that's top of the key for three. Oh cats up
at the level and they're not tagging the low man,
and we're running a stack action and someone's slipping to
the top of the key topp ens rolling hit him
with the bounce pass. He's dunking it with one hand.
(09:14):
There is a steady basketball identity that has been built
out from the top down with the pacers that carries
them into a situation where then their talent can put
them over the top. And yes, there have been moments
Aaron E. Smith's shooting in Game one, right, Tyre's Halliburton
throughout the series, Pascal Siakam tonight, just getting bucket after bucket.
(09:36):
There's a lot of talent there, but the talent is
put in position to succeed because the Pacers have put
in the work to make themselves an extremely sharp and
discipline basketball team. Let me just put it to you
in a very basic way. Teams that don't get back
in transition and give up layup lines off of made
(09:56):
baskets are not champion basketball teams. They are not champions.
Champions don't do that. Champions don't make silly, sloppy mistakes
over over and over again. They don't make fixable mistakes
over and over again. They identify their mistakes, they rectify them.
I'd argue this was in Game six, the worst transition
(10:19):
defense night that the Knicks had several possessions where all
five dudes are south of the free throw line, meaning
there's nobody up at the top of the key ready
in back court balance. I saw multiple examples a couple
of guys that have caught Landry Shaman and Mitchell Robinson
in situations where they're back, but they're not paying attention
and someone's behind them. Like, that's basic stuff. Ball rim
(10:43):
spread out to shooters. That's literally the process of transition defense.
If you have your balance set, meaning as if you've
got a driver and a roller coming off the top
of the key, you have your guys relocate off the
corner so that there's somebody north of the foul line
that can get back in transition. This is basic stuff. Guys.
We teach this in high school. This is not advanced
(11:04):
basketball schematics. Floor balance, get back, stop ball, protect the
rim at the very least make them make a three.
But I mean there were there was a missed free throw,
a miss free throw for the Knicks. I think it
was kat where the Pacers just swung the ball off
(11:24):
the floor and got a wide open three for Aeronniemith
on a free throw. That that is just straight up
not a championship basketball team. You don't see the Pacers
making those kinds of mistakes. You don't see the Thunder
making those kinds of mistakes. And it's just a casual reminder,
Like we can talk about player movement this summer, we
(11:49):
can talk about theoretical theoretical basketball fit for Yannis with
Victor woman Yama on the Spurs and the Knicks. We
could talk about with the Knicks, like what if they
trade Cat for Kde or something like that. None of
it matters if you don't use the regular season to
(12:10):
practice playing great basketball, because ultimately it's gonna be what
decides your fate. The Knicks had so many chances to
win this game. Thirty four points off of turnovers, you're
dead on a rival. I just thought it was such
an interesting juxtaposition in this series, two teams, very talented.
(12:31):
Nick's probably more talented Knicks when they're at their best,
look a little bit better. Didn't matter because the Pacers
were steady. The Pacers were steady and played Pacers basketball
and just waited for the Knicks to soil themselves, and
inevitably they did. Yeah, it doesn't matter who you are.
You can run the floor. It doesn't matter who you are.
(12:53):
You can do these basic things that Rick Carlisle has
these guys doing on every single possession, and you will
grab a ton of low hanging fruit and you're gonna
give yourself a great chance to win games. Pascal Siakam
was absolutely amazing tonight. He's a classic example of what
I'm talking about with those runouts. Sorry, the ESPN website
(13:15):
isn't pulling up the box score, is gonna just play
an ad. There's a There's this thing that Pascal Siakam
has been doing this entire postseason, just pushing the ball
up the floor, like every time that there's any sort
of opportunity, he's leaking out and it's just they're throwing
it to him like he's a wide receiver run in
his street and he's just catching it and making a
quick move against some one on one or maybe getting
(13:36):
a dunk. He gets all sorts of opportunities like that,
the pick and pop action, just hitting important threes at
the top of the key, the quick ISOs, the quick
turnarounds over both shoulders, the getting to the foul line. Like,
Siakam was an absolute monster tonight. Andrew Nemhard was doing
such a good job on Jalen Brunson. You could literally
see the frustration building to like a fever pitch. I
(13:57):
was texting Jackson during the game. I was like, We're
like one more hard bump in like a fifteen point
game from this turning into some sort of physical altercation
between Brunson and Nemhard because they were like jawn at
each other. But that's the thing Nemhard like, I admire
the hell out of this from basketball players. Nedmar had
a rough series offensively, couldn't make a shot to save
(14:18):
his life. A lot of like uncharacteristic decisions on drives
and in the decision zone, kind of there in the
middle of the floor. But like, what do I always say?
What do I always say? Just make a play, find
a way to do something that helps your team win
the game. And Aaron Nesmiths having an ankle issue. I
don't know if that was the reason why they did
the switch today or if Nemhar just straight up went
(14:39):
to Rick Carlisle and said, Hey, I'm sucking on offense
right now. Give me something where I can like pour
my heart and soul into it and try to make
something happen. But he just did as good a job
guarding of one of the best point guards in the
league as you'll see. And then you could tell he
was leaving a jump shot short. Then he has two
massive threes in the second half, and on those threes,
(14:59):
you can you'd literally see Nemhard like dip super low,
even though he's wide open. You could see him dip
super low to get his legs into the shot, and
it's like, just make one, just make one, and then
it doesn't matter that he had a rough series. No
one cares about Nemhart having a rough series now because
in Game six he locked Jalen Brunton up and hit
(15:22):
a couple of huge baskets down the stretch, a couple
of big drop coverage shots too. Like he stayed in
it mentally, never let go of the rope, and found
a way to leave a lasting imprint on the series.
But before it was done, Obi top In I thought
there were several key sequences tonight where he made plays
that kind of were like, uh, like what I would
(15:43):
consider like ceiling raising type of plays were not necessarily
in the flow of the game, but like shots that
are being conceded and you have no choice but to
beat the coverage by knocking down those shots. Big pick
and pop three at the top of the key late
that role, late in the game, there was a three
that he hit kind of off of movement in the
I think it was an early second quarter where there's
a really good defensive possession from the Knicks where everybody's
(16:05):
doing all the right stuff, and then I think Kat
was lazy on one little dho at the top of
the key and he just rises and fires from like
twenty six feet off the move, rises up and knocks
it down. His run, his lane running and transition all
series long. He was awesome. Thomas Bryant three massive threes
out of the corners in this game tonight. Every single
one of them felt like a huge shotgun blast to
(16:27):
the chest for the Knicks, just massive, massive shots. And
then I thought, Tyre's Halliburton. You know, he's been facing
the brunt of the aggressive aggression in the Knicks coverages
in this series and like taking simple reads like they're
in that second half, he really started to assert himself
in control of the offense and like, oh, you're leaving
Topping on the pop, I'm gonna hit this. Oh you're
(16:49):
leaving Topping on the role, I'm gonna hit this. Okay,
you're gonna let me operate in this soft ass February
drop coverage. I'm just gonna hit floater after floater after
floater out that Halliburton was fantastic, just a just a
wired to wire, super super impressive playoff run from the Pacers,
and now they're in the final.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
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(17:31):
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Speaker 2 (17:43):
Now, looking ahead to the finals, I think the first
key is going to be managing ball pressure, as you guys.
As you guys have seen in this series, there have
been several stretches where the Nicks did some damage to
the Pacers with their ball pressure. The thunder Age is
way better at it. They've got better defenders, more of
the better matchups too. They're not like big lanky dudes
(18:03):
that are not necessarily as quick footed as Tyre's Halliburton.
They've got guys that are quicker than Tyres Haliburton. That'll
be on him the entire series, and so everything's going
to be about managing that ball pressure. I think it's
going to be vitally important for the Pacers to have
success attacking in the post through Pascal Siakam and Myles Turner.
(18:27):
One of the reasons why is if Haliburton does his job,
which is handle the ball pressure, doesn't turn the ball over,
and OKASE is super aggressive with their coverages two on
the ball, packing the paint, playing passing lanes, and Haliburton
makes the passes and the Pacers shoot them out of it.
Mark Dagnaut will default two more switching and to staying
(18:52):
home off ball, and in that series, in that setting,
it is no longer a Haliburton series in terms of
ISO scoring the advantage. Again, the Thunders, they're small on
the perimeter and so it's gotta be Siakam and as
we saw in the Minnesota series and in the Denver series,
it's extremely difficult to make post entries against the Thunder.
(19:13):
They three quarter front, they full front, they bracket from behind,
They do all sorts of stuff to make that passing
angle difficult. And if OKC goes to switching and goes
to staying home. The key to the series will be
getting the ball to Siakam to turner deep seals, and
then that being the entry point either high quality two's
(19:34):
right at the front of the rim or drawing multiple
defenders to get the defense in rotation. Ultimately, if you
want the Pacers to play Pacers basketball, they're gonna have
to manage ball pressure and they're gonna have to move
the ball efficiently through Oklahoma City's aggressive defense, and it's
gonna be a very very different challenge. I look at
this series as a particularly tough one for the Pacers
early on because they are just not exposed to this
(19:57):
level of defense yet. The Bucks out obviously, We're horrendous
all year, The Knicks were horrendous all year, The Cavs sneaky,
were mediocre on defense for basically the second half of
the year. This is arguably the greatest defense that we've
seen in recent NBA history. So it's going to be
a very very different sort of challenge for them. But
they do in theory. What do I always say, what
(20:18):
do you need to beat Oklahoma City's defense? You need size,
you need playmaking, and you need shooting. And they do
have the size it just comes in the form of Siakam, right.
They have tons of playmaking talent and everyone can shoot,
but it's in a matchup where the Pacers typically have
a lot of success with their guard play TJ McConnell,
(20:40):
Tyrese Halliburn, Andrew Nemhart, even Niesmith to a certain extent,
Ben Mathern. In a series like this, those guys don't
have the advantage all of a sudden. It's going to
be a lot of pressure on Siakam to be that
guy who's initiating the offense with size and then as
a team playmaking out of it in finishing plays by
knocking down shots, handling game plan tweaks. As I said,
(21:04):
I think Dagnault will come out with their base pressure
scheme and load up scheme, but I think it's very
possible that they pivot out of that and the Pacers
are going to have to have some different punches in
their bag guarding she. On the other end of the floor,
we saw the Timberwolves have more success in their series
with quicker defenders on say, kind of like more of
(21:24):
a beating him to spot style of approach and forcing
him to shoot over the top the Pacers have lots
of guys that can do that. The Pacers, in theory
have personnel that matches up reasonably well with Oklahoma City.
I'm actually a lot more bullish on the Pacers' ability
to get stops against Oklahoma City that am on their
ability to score, which is hilarious considering the strength of
(21:45):
this Pacers team is their offense. But guarding Shee again,
it's going to be a steady diet of Nie Smith
and Nemhart and TJ McConnell beating him to spots, not
getting handsy to where you can get in trouble with
the whistle, and then forcing him into a bunch of
mid range jump shots and then forcing kickouts again. The
finals are stressful, totally different setting, totally different level of intensity,
(22:08):
totally different media presence, totally different production quality. It is
a foreign entity compared to the rest of the NBA Playoffs.
There's a lot of young dudes in that Thunder locker room,
and so you have to for Shae to pass and
force these young, inexperienced players to knock down, catch and
shoot jump shots. We are going to start I'm going
(22:30):
to start watching film for Pacers. Thunder tomorrow morning. We
will have a bunch of preview content coming out on Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday next week. I will keep you guys posted as
soon as we have a more firm schedule. But keep
an eye on my Twitter feed tomorrow morning because I'll
probably be watching some of that film and just kind
of tweeting out little things that I find interesting. But
(22:51):
we will have our first bit of finals coverage starting
on Monday on the Knicks front. Before we get to
our mailbag. To put it very simply, we can talk
about what they want to do with the roster. I
think Karl Anthony Towns has proven pretty resoundingly to this
point that he is a guy that has a certain ceiling.
That ceiling is he is inconsistent as an offensive player
(23:14):
and downright bad as a defensive player as the leverage
and intensity of the situation gets higher later in the playoffs.
And this is back to back years in the conference
finals where I can almost like specifically point to him
as a big part of why they lost, and it's
there are just certain guys that are not built for
(23:34):
this style of basketball, in this sort of setting, and
to have a salary slot as large as cats for
a player that is as damaging as he was as
they were just picking him a part on defense in
this game, way too deep in his drop, sometimes active
up high but giving up easy pocket passes. At other
times he's a brutal part of their bad transition defense.
(23:56):
It's all of the above. So we can talk about
pivot off of Cat, and that's what I would do.
I would pivot off of Cat and I would build
around defense around Brunson. This has to be a sharper, better,
deeper defensive team. All that's fine. None of it matters
if you don't play a sharper brand of basketball. And
some of this is on tips. Tom Thibodeau is the
(24:20):
coach of this team, and by the sixth game of
the series, his team looked like it had no idea
how to handle the Pacers in transition. And it wasn't like,
oh my god, they're pushing the ball off the floor
and we're doing our job, but they're just putting us
in a blender of quick transition action. No, these are
wide open, kick ahead, leak out dunks and wide open
kickout threes. There is a reality with Tom Thibodeau that
(24:46):
he trusts the top end of his roster so much
that he leans on them so heavily that it's kind
of impossible for him to be as detail oriented as
he needs to be. How could you be that detail
oriented when a guy's playing forty something minutes a night.
There's too many opportunities for fatigue to enter into the equation.
(25:08):
The Knicks have to, regardless of what roster changes are made,
starting in early October next year, culturally, from the top down,
embrace a sharper and more detail oriented brand of basketball.
You lost your opportunity to go to the finals this
year because you were an undisciplined team, not because you
didn't have the talent to hang with the Pacers. Easy
(25:32):
way to do that be more willing to use your bench.
From day one, we're running a nine to ten man rotation.
Here are basic defensive principles. Does that mean you need
to pick a full court all series or all season. No,
but come up with some basic things. We are going
to pressure the ball after half court at a bare minimum,
(25:54):
because that is an easy way to just make ball
handlers uncomfortable, which can have all sorts of trickle down
effects in the game. In general, I think the brunts
and bridges o g Nnobi specifically heart bridges and Anonoby
are just so good in transition. You got to try
to feed as many transition opportunities as possible. And you're
gonna do that with ball pressure at bare minimum, ball
(26:17):
pressure at half court at a bare minimum, a basic
set of like three different coverages that you trust and
man a man situations based with Brunson and with Cat
or whoever it is that you bring back, and then
attention to detail throughout the season, making sure that these
are sharp so you don't have breakdowns taking place in
the playoffs where like dudes are pointing at each other
like you're supposed to do this, You're supposed to do that.
(26:37):
You looked like that all season. Not surprised that you
looked like that when it came down when it came
time to get the job done in the playoffs. There
is a there is an order of operations to being
a champion, and it starts in October with attention to detail.
It's a mandatory tell me, tell me the time. Can
can anybody think of like a sloppy basketball team that
(26:59):
won the title. The Celtics last year weren't sloppy. The
Nuggets weren't sloppy in twenty twenty three, the Warriors weren't sloppy,
the Bucks weren't sloppy, the Lakers weren't sloppy. That's like
a that's literally a non negotiable. You cannot get to
the Promised Land if you practice playing sloppy basketball. So
regardless of what the Knicks do this summer, that is
(27:20):
a non negotiable. They need a basketball culture reset either.
Someone needs to sit down with TIBs and be like, hey, dude,
we got to change our approach. Stop riding everybody super
high minutes, extend your rotation, and actually start holding these
guys accountable to the details night in and night out
throughout the regular season. That way, we can be the
best version of ourselves when we get to June, when
(27:41):
we get to may Or, if he's not up for
it and you need to change a voice in the
locker room, make a move and bring in a coach
that can be the guy that highlights that low hanging fruit.
The Pacers aren't going anywhere. The Celtics are going to
be in a pivot year. Obviously, the Bucks are going
to be in a pivot year. Obviously. The East is
gonna be pretty open. But you're gonna be right back here,
(28:04):
maybe in round two, maybe in round three dealing with
the Pacers, And what am I gonna be saying? I
know what I'm getting from the Pacers because the Pacers
have a top down basketball identity, from Kevin Pritchard to
Rick Carlisle, all the way down that roster, starting with
Tyre's Halliburton. This is the way they play. They don't
cut corners, and so they are always the very best
(28:25):
version of themselves. And that's why they're going to the finals.
All right, Jackson's gonna come on. We're gonna take some questions.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Let's do it. First question, Pascal Siakam won Eastern Conference
Finals MVP. Do you feel like Halliburton got snubbed?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I'm gonna say no, just simply because there were stretches
of this series where Tyre's Halliburton was somewhat, you know,
disengaged as a product of the defensive scheme that he
was facing. And I did think Siakam was more or
less as good as Halliburton. It just manifests in different ways.
Like with Tyre's Halliburton, He's always going to be better
(29:00):
than what the box score will lead you to believe
simply because of the simply because of the advantage creation aspect.
But with Pascal Siakam, like he's been the guy who
they've leaned on for like, oh, this isn't working, we
need to create a shot, Like he's the guy. He's
the one guy who can go get a bucket. And
by the way, in the game to win thirty nine
(29:21):
points in the game, four win thirty points in the game,
six win thirty one points. So in three of their
four wins he had over thirty points. I'm not going
to call that a snub under any circumstances.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
He's such a stabilizer for them and such a floor razer.
It's it's hard to think about teams that have their
second best player. I think it's even though he was
you know, the series MVP Halliburn is their best player.
It's it's it's not that many examples of teams but
their second best player is such a stabilizer for them.
It's really interesting and impressive from his standpoint.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
He's a pretty consistent player too, with just the way
that he runs. I will say he was rough in
game five, and that was definitely unusual.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
One.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
The entire team was kind of bad in Game five,
but yeah, that was definitely bad. The I also thought
that he did a great job on Kat defensively tonight,
kept stonewalling him on those like volleyball drives and was
attacking the basketball and forcing him to lose control, like
Sacham was just awesome. And I think, I mean, we
can all admit this. I thought he'd like straight up,
flat out outplayed cat headhead in the series.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Yeah, definitely. And the I mean, we we on this
show and you are not expecting the Pacers to win
the finals, but if the Pacers win the finals, we're
gonna have to have some Pascal Siakam conversations as he
will now be the second best player on multiple different
championship teams with multiple franchises. Like that is not that
many people can say that.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
I think it's just a classic example of like the
simple dynamic that you and I have talked about so
many times over the season, and in terms of just
like the whole playoff riser thing is real and it
all comes down to some basic things to me, Like
there's a certain like size and strength element to it.
There's a certain versatile element to it. Those two things
(31:01):
are vital because in the playoffs it just gets so physical,
and teams game plan you, so if you don't have
if you have too many weaknesses to expose rather than
having a well rounded game, you'll run into issues. The
third part of it is I'm I'm a huge believer
that like, even amongst competitors, there's levels to competitiveness. I
always joke about this, but like I would much rather
(31:24):
play in terms of having a teammate a fox hole guy.
I would much rather play with a guy who hates
losing than a guy who loves basketball. Now, I want both,
and the best players of all time are always both.
But like I have a hard time relating to someone
that doesn't like get fucking mad about losing, like angry,
(31:44):
like viscerally upset about losing. Like to me, that emotion,
that hatred of losing is what drives a basketball player
to be detail oriented and to not cut corners and
to do all the things you've got to do, and like,
say what you want about you know some of these
dudes like Andrew nemhard for instance, but like there is
a there is like a sheer competitive fire, like he
(32:06):
wanted to embarrass Jalen Brunson tonight down the stretch Nemhart did,
and so like, yeah, like part of that playoff riser
thing to me is always going to be that competitiveness,
like do you have the will to fight more than
the guy across from you?
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Yeah, and the Pacers have. I mean, you could probably
say they've been a lot of their players, but specifically
three in their starting lineup. I think Nie Smith and
Nemhard and Pascal are all very much that type.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Of player classic playoff risers.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Uh super chat from jm Rciakam and Nie Smith the
key to beating Oka. See what would it take for
Indy to beat Okac four times?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I'm gonna say yes to both of those because I
think Nie Smith will be the primary matchup on Shay
and uh if if Nie Smith can prevent Shae from
getting easy dribble penetration so that it's not like you're
badly compromised right off the bat over and over again
with the screen navigation that he did in this series,
I think that would go a long way. Jada McDaniels
(33:04):
in the Conference finals, I thought did an awful job
of containing the ball in like in kind of a
way that was so weird to have me like rethinking
like defensive player archetypes, and Nie Smith is the kind
of archetype theoretically that is, like he is so laterally
quick that he should be able to at least as
long as he doesn't get screened, keep Shay reasonably in front.
(33:26):
If he does, then Shay is going to be throwing
kickouts to advantages that are like advantages but not like
the oh my god, he got super deep into the
paint and drew four bodies in and this is like
a standstill, close out opportunity kind of thing. So Nie
Smith is the key to the defensive matchup, and then
Siakom to me is the key of the offensive matchup.
(33:46):
Because I think there's a chance that Halliburton like straight
up folds right to start this series like that that's
on the table, like he's kind of done it against
Dort before and it could be something that becomes a problem.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
But either way, if Halliburton's fantastic to start the series
because of the coverages, I think Dagnaut will audible to
switching and to staying home, and if he does, it's
going to become a matchup attacking series, and it'll be
I'll take it a step further. It'll be it'll be
Nie Smith on Ball on Shay, It'll be Siakam attacking matchups.
(34:19):
And then I think another guy that I would put
as a key there is actually Ben Matherin, because I
think Ben Mathern is one of the few guys who
has the athleticism to like just to just break down
Oklahoma City's defense at the point of attack.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
That's a good segue into our next question, which is
who is the most important pacer on offense other than
Halliburton and Siaco offense only.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Okay, it'll be I want to take it a step
further because Mathern is obviously going to be in somewhat
of a limited role. I think Miles Turner hitting pick
and pop three's is such a huge, like foundational thing,
Like if he's not hitting pick and pop threes, then
you can run drop. If you can run drop or
I excuse me, not even drop, you can run at
the level. If if you can bring your big up
(35:02):
to the level and not have to worry about Turner
slipping out of the screen and hitting threes, that's that's
a huge that that's a huge upside to your defense.
So like Turner hitting pick and pop threes, I think
is huge. I would say down the roster shooting in general,
shooting against really good closeouts. I think mathurd would probably
fourth for me there, Like, I think Mathurin is going
(35:23):
to be huge like them Hard to me, like it
kind of is what he is. You know, I'm not
counting on him to be like the dominant force, but actually,
you know what, we should probably move them Hard up
because if Halliburton does kind of succumb to the dort thing,
Nemhard will be their point guard. And we looked in
the regular season and in the footage we watched them,
(35:44):
Hard was getting the ball over and over again.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, I was gonna say tonight it felt like because
of the ball pressure from Game five, it felt like
they ran a handful more of those stacks may pick
and rolls with Nemhard being the lead ball handle at
Haliburton being the third guy to sort of hopefully do
and I expect a lot of that, a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
I think that's gonna have to be there. One of
their pet actions in terms of like keeping them Halliburton
involved when he's being denied it did seem like Nemhard
got a little bit of his mojo back tonight, which
I think would be key.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, I agree. Next question, we'll take a couple more
before playback. When was the last time that you can remember,
if you can remember at all, that to both finals
teams played a ten to eleven man rotation. It's kind
of crazy that both teams are sort of following that
same model a little bit.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
I know. I like, well, the Celtics were like pretty
much running an eight man rotation last year. The Nuggets
ran a tight rotation, the Warriors ran a little bit
of a longer rotation. But I still think it was
like it was like eight or nine yes that year
because because it was like Looney and in Auto Porter
Junior Jordan Poole. Yeah, I don't I can't think of one. Yeah, dude,
(36:59):
that's that's that's crazy. Like, you know what's been interesting though,
is like we all have our ideologies and like I
even have like a list that I always give out
when someone says, like, oh, what's the best way to
build a basketball team, And I'm like, Okay, you want
a skill guard, you want an athlete guard, you want
a kind of a skinnier perimeter, perimeter wing, a bigger forward.
All that sounds great, but like you kind of two things. One,
(37:21):
you don't know what kind of roster you're gonnaend up getting,
and you kind of have to build your team around
what that roster is. And then two, like there are
more there is more than one way to win a
basketball game. They're just they're flat out is and so
like what's super fascinating is like you can win a
basketball game being the Indiana Pacers picking up full court,
playing at absurd pace and blah blah blah. You could
(37:42):
also win a basketball game being like the Dallas Mavericks
last year and like walking the ball up the court
with Luca and just like methodically walking teams now with
half court offense, Like there's there's more than one way
to skin a cat, so to speak like that. It
just is it's fascinating to me that we've seen these
two particular of their team's matchup, because it kind of
felt very war of attritiony at times in this postseason.
(38:05):
And these are the younger, deeper teams that play this
like kind of hillacious style, but they also don't tax
any of their players that much because they keep Fitts down.
Like it's kind of like a super fascinating concept. I
want to emphasize too, there are guys in these rotations that, like,
if they were playing for your team, you probably wouldn't
think they're as good as they look on the pacers,
(38:26):
So like, don't don't underestimate the organizational element of making
depth useful. Like like I like I watched Jordan Goodwin
be okay and in other situations, but I watched him
with the Lakers be fantastic because he's on a team
that just needed an athletic guard that can do basic
stuff like you need you need to like with your roster,
(38:47):
draft players and go after players that fit an identity
that matches your team so that in the regular season,
whether you're using the fifteenth man or the eighth man,
there's like this role that just like makes sense in
your offense that like this guy's like to Obi Topping
comes in and plays the same role that Siakam plays
like literally and and it's a rough approximation of it,
(39:12):
but he comes in and does the same thing. And
because he has some useful skills that kind of fit
into that role, it makes him a useful player, like
I don't think it's a coincidence that Landry Shammitt looked
useful in this series. Like land there are a lot
of players like Lanzer Shammitt out there in the league
that can play playoff minutes for you, as long as
you set up the appropriate structure for them to thrive in.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
We'll take two more questions. This one's a super chat
for Matt. Thank you for the super chat, he says.
He says, not an NBA expert, but there seems to
be some sort of intangible switch or crunch time magic
to this Pacers team that I can't put my finger on.
Is that crazy? What can you attribute that to?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
So I do Okay, I I think I'm gonna this
is complicated because I think, on the one hand, I
think it has as much to do with the other
team letting go of the rope as it does with
them them hitting a switch. I do think that they
feel the magic a little bit like you could feel
it in Game one, Like you could feel it in
Game one where it's like, oh, like they know, they're
like we've done this before, We're gonna do it again. Yeah,
(40:11):
there's definitely a little bit of like they feel the magic.
But at the same time, like I would equate it to,
they play the same way no matter what, regardless of
the time in the game. And there is a natural
human nature piece when a team goes up by ten
to fifteen points in the final four or five minutes
where they just naturally relax, and that when you relax
while the Pacers are still playing Pacers basketball just kind
(40:33):
of naturally manifest in these like easy runouts and easy
quick buckets, and that's more or less the genesis of it.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Yeah, last question before we go over to playback, and
next question, if you had to pick one big change
for the next this summer between these two, would you,
Jason Timp choose to trade Cat or fire Tips have.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
To choose one, have to choose one. I think I
trade Cat. So this is complicated, but like, do you
remember when in it was like Game three or four
when Stam Van Gundy dropped that line about how like
teams run because of their point guard, not because of
their coach. Again, I don't necessarily think that's true, but
(41:17):
I do think there's some truth to it in the
sense that, like I watched, I've watched as a guy
who's rooted for Lebron a lot over the years, Like
I've watched Lebron have success with mediocre coaches because of
his ability as an on court presence to bring the accountability,
to bring the intensity in the in the experience and
all that kind of stuff and even the decision making.
(41:39):
I feel like trading Cat has a far greater potential
to bring back useful players that fit within the identity
of this team then getting rid of TIBs and just
bringing in some new voice and seeing if that guy
can fix all their problems. I think I do think
that I do think that there needs to be like
a sit down with Tis though in emphasize like and
(42:02):
I would point out the obvious stuff with Delawn Wright
and in Landra Shamant and be like, hey, like we
have to kind of embrace the times and realize this
is a faster, more transition oriented game. We need to
go deeper into our bench. All right, guys, that's all
we have for tonight. On YouTube, We're heading over to
playback again. That's playback dot tv slash Oops tonight. We'll
be taking callers and questions and stuff for at least
(42:24):
forty five minutes or so, so make sure you guys
head over there. We'll see you guys in just a
few minutes. And for the YouTube crowd, we will be
back on Monday morning with our first bit of NBA
Finals preview content. We'll see you guys then. What's up guys?
As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting
OOPS tonight. They would actually be really helpful for us
if you guys would take a second and leave a
(42:45):
rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys
supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
The volume
Hosts And Creators
Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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