Hoops Tonight - Nuggets Deep Dive: Nikola Jokic can WIN TITLE after Cam Johnson, Valanciunas, Bruce Brown additions

Jason is joined by Adam Mares of DNVR and the ALL NBA podcast to discuss the latest news about LeBron James before doing a deep dive into the Denver Nuggets offseason including how they’re building around Nikola Jokic, adding Cam Johnson, Jonas Valanciunas, Bruce Brown, and Tim Hardaway Jr. in the offseason, what it means for their current role players, and why they have a great chance to win the NBA title. 

 

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Episode Transcript

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(01:52):
welcome to hoops tonight. You're at the volume. Happy Saturday, everybody.
Hope all of you guys are having a great weekend.
We are here at the Serious XM studios at the
Win in Las Vegas. Shout out to the guys from
Serious XMENT. They're taking great care of us. My good
friend Adam, who I got to meet in person in
Denver a couple of weeks ago, who I was stunned
as I came over to your house for dinner and
he opens the door and he's like every bit as

(02:13):
tall as me, not taller, And I'm like, oh my god,
because we've just seen each other on zoom calls all
these times. But I appreciate you taking the time to
come hang out. Adam Mars does DMVR. Big Nuggets guy
also does a bunch of stuff for that company, and
they're building a really cool product that covers the league
on a team specific level. And before we talk any Nuggets, Adam,
there was a story this morning that came out on ESPN.

(02:35):
There's some frustrations, some drama brewing in Los Angeles. What's
your take on this whole situation with Lebron and the Lakers.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
What a predictable mess we're in. Honestly, like this Lakers
Lebron era has. It's been longer than expected in many ways,
just because Lebron keeps playing. He's played there I think
more consistently, right more years in a row than anywhere
else in his career. It was almost always going to
end bad, and when the Luca trade happened, clearly the
team's moving on. So there's this weirdness between what do

(03:02):
they owe Lebron and because he hasn't been there there
his whole career, it feels inevitable that they get to
this place where it's hey, man, our future doesn't involve you,
and so for us to sort of mold ourselves to
fit you, you know, would slow us down for after
you're gone. So from part of me looks at this
and says, I get what the Lakers are doing.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
It sucks.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
You'd like to be able to send a guy off
after all he did. But in my opinion, this is
not at all surprising. It's unfortunate for Lebron, and here
he is, on the other side of some of what
he's been on his whole career, putting pressure on an
order to do his bidding. The Lakers are saying, hey,
we're not considering you. I don't know. It's kind of
funny to me.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, you know, I see multiple angles here because I
totally think it's reasonable to look at Lebron and be like, yo, dude,
we can't go all in on this particular season. That's
too much to ask. With the big picture potential this
group has. We're trying to block Luca up long term.
If we go after let's say and Andrew Wiggins, for instance,
and they tried to include a first round pick, there

(03:59):
all of a sudden, handicapping your ability to make a
move down the line. Andrews thirty. There's some downsides there
in terms of him being a depreciating asset. I think
where I see a little bit more of a Lebron
like I get defensive of Lebron, is the contract side
of it, because like, I don't think Lebron is expecting
the Lakers to like trade Dalton in a first for

(04:22):
like a thirty three year old win. Now, I don't.
I don't think Lebron's that unreasonable. I think where he
is frustrated is like he was sixth at MVP voting.
He was second team All NBA even after he got hurt.
When he came back, he's still playing in that like,
you know, eleventh to fifteenth best player in the league
type of level at that point in time. And I
think he looks at it and he goes like James

(04:44):
Harden just signed a new two year deal, Like, why
is it that I am being like handstrung on just
wanting a one plus one like he always wants and
he feels like he deserves I think he feels like
as a basketball player, he deserves a one plus one,
and I I side with him on that.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
They clearly spiritually are trying to move on, I think
is what it looks like. And I think the big
question is just how close are they? Because you're right,
Lebron is still great. I don't know if he can
be great for eighty two plus four rounds. That's the
big question. Lucas obviously great, You're eighty ninety percent the
way there. They do need to add a lot of depth.
Could they have done that this offseason? I would say no,
But I know a team that did add a lot

(05:22):
of depth with no assets or resources this summer, So
maybe it is possible. And of course I'm referencing the
Denver Nuggets, so maybe it was possible. Because in today's NBA,
I think everybody is trying to make these like four
or five year plans, or at least that's been the
status quot for the last several years. I think four
or five year plans are out the window, and so
the Lakers, with their decision making with Lebron, almost feels like, yeah,
but we got to set ourselves up for years down

(05:43):
the line. Maybe they'll be right about that, and maybe
Lebron is just too much for you to overcome and
your planning. But I look at it, I mean, I
do understand what you're saying. Is it realistic that they
could have built a contender, given them a one plus
one and said, yes, but we're going to do this
for two years and try to happen. Maybe probably not.
Maybe you owed it to him. It's a tough one, man.
They just clearly, I think, are spiritually moved on from him.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Well, and that's my thing is like I feel like
if you give him a one plus one, you know
he's certainly going to be worth the money the first
year as a player, like just ensure in terms of
sheer production, like sixty games the Lebron plus the playoffs
is still better than a lot of dudes who are
making fifty million hundred percent day, like Jalen Brown made
fifty million for a team that won the championship last year,
Like Karl Anthony Towns is going to make fifty million

(06:24):
dollars like is there are a lot of players around
the league that Lebron is just a better basketball player,
then that are that that provide more winning impact at
that salary number. So I sympathize with him in that
specific regard. However, I do think you're onto something. I
think this is a bigger picture, like philosophical We want
to clean slate not just from Lebron, but from the
entire era, right from when Genie Bus owned the team.

(06:45):
We're gonna we're gonna behave like one of the higher spending,
more sophisticated teams in the NBA. We're going to invest
more in all of these specific areas where the Lakers
organization was not investing the right amount of money. And
I think I think they're just viewing Lebron as like
get him out the doors, almost just like a complete
culture shift for the team moving forward, and I think

(07:06):
I think he's just a little offended by that.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well, it's also power though, it's power and its leverage,
and Lebron has always had power and leverage impressed it.
One plus one is yes, we'll continue to allow you
to have that, saying hey, this is the last year
that's like you no longer have this. You want to
be part of the team here, You're part of the
team this year, But going beyond this, you have no
leverage or power. And whether that's the right move or not, again,
I just the Lakers are spiritually moving on from it,

(07:29):
and that's what that signals to me.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
Okay, so before we move on to some nuggets, I'm
going to put you on the spot about the Lakers
in the West. So we have this top tier, the
three teams, and we're not going to put him in
any particular order right now, but Oklahoma City, Houston, and Denver,
and then I think there's a little drop off. But
we have like Golden State in this mix. We have
the Lakers in this mix. We have Minnesota in this mix.
There's the Clippers in this mix. San Antonio could theoretically

(07:53):
be in this mix. But there's that group of teams.
Is there a particular team in that mix as a
Nuggets as a person who covers the Nuggets that you
view as more dangerous to be a threat out of
that tier.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
What's interesting about that group to me is you have
two teams Minnesota, who's had Denver's number, you know, for
the last handful of years with multiple bigs. And then
look what the Clippers just did. Norman Powell had an
incredible year for them. They lose him, willing to lose him,
but they bolster their front court with Collins and Lopez,
and I just look at those moves and I go,
that's a Denver Nuggets move. I don't know who that's for.

(08:24):
I mean, there are there Houston's, Minnesota's perhaps that you're
going to need that depth, or even just getting through
the regular season. You want to guys come in and
out of the lineup. You want to have somebody there.
But I look at that and I go in the
playoffs and I say, Okay, Zubots guarded Yokic really well,
but yok still over kayments still got them through that series.
But now they have forty eight minutes of at least
one big if not two, And so to me, I

(08:45):
think the Clippers now move into that category. The only
difference is the Clippers nailed this season. They were healthy.
Everything they did mean they were healthy going into the playoffs.
Can they do that again? I doubt it, But if
they are healthy, I would say Clippers and Minnesota those
are the two.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
It was also the first year Kawhi didn't look like
a world beater in the postseason, because if we remember
in those other years when he would get hurt, Like
for the few games that he'd be playing, he looked
like I was like, oh my god, he might be better
than KD in this series, Like, oh my god, he
might be better than this guy or that guy.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Like, yeah, that one game, do you remember what was it,
like seventeen and nineteen or something. Yeah, the one game
he didn't miss any shot.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah he had the one. Yeah, the one really good
game in the first round. Other than that, he was
he just didn't look as indomitable. And some of that, too,
is a credit to Aaron Gordon and just the job
that he does. But yeah, the Clippers are an interesting
one for me. It's the ball handling a shortcoming there.
Like I like that team a lot. If they do
get Bradley Beal, but without Bradley bal I look at
it as like, Okay, what if Kawhy does play thirty

(09:38):
five games again, it's a lot of James Harden at
that point. Okay, let's talk to some Denver Nuggets. So
as we zoom out from the offseason, they trade Michael
Porter Junior in an unprotected first round pick for Cam Johnson,
a move that I absolutely loved. We're gonna get into
that a lot. They signed Bruce Brown to one year deal,

(09:59):
They signed Tim Hardaway Junior, and they trade Dario Sariz
for Yonis Valancuna's a backup center. You also have the
potential for Darren Holden's to come back from his achilles
injury and potentially be an alternative big slash, a two
big kind of option that they can look at. So
a significant influx in talent, And the first thing that

(10:20):
I thought about when I saw this was just the
ability of Jokic to elevate and maximize offensive talent. And
I think Cam Johnson is just a better player than
Michael Porter Junior Tim Hardaway Junior to me as a
movement off screen score is such a perfect fit alongside
Nicole Jokic. Bruce Brown has demonstrated a fit in this matchup.

(10:44):
I was you shared this clip and I when I
saw it, it thought it made me think of just
like what a testament it is to Nicole Jokic and
just what an all time great offensive player. I've said
this before my show. I believe he's the greatest offensive
player I've ever seen Tate with. I think it was
old man of the Three Asks Cam Johnson and Tim

(11:05):
Hardaway Junior, Like, what do you guys think about the
prospect of playing with Nikole Jokic, And both dudes just
started cheesing, like right away, simultaneously, like not influenced by
each other, they both just get actively excited. Is that
literally what you were feeling this entire summer as all
this was taking shape.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
I mean, it happened so quickly. To be honest with you,
I had thought we were joking over on the DNVR
show where we said what would PARR be for the offseason?
I was like, all right, maybe they had Canard, Luke Canard,
Bruce Brown, that's par anything better than that? This is
way better than that. And it all happened in forty
eight hours. And here's how I would put it with
Cam Johnson and actually Tim Hardaway Junior is one of
the guys I was trying to think of who's going

(11:44):
to be the biggest winner from this, and it might
be Tim Hardaway Junior. But here's what I'll say about Jokic.
Forget talent, He's never played with an all Star, all
defensive player, all NBA guy. Some of that is by design,
not all of it, but some of that is when
you play Jokic's style, everything goes through him. Some guys
are so much much better at it because the skill
you need there, in addition to ball handling and shooting
and whatever you specialize in, it's the ability to read

(12:06):
the court. Yep. And even if you go back and
watch when the Nuggets made their title run, Michael Porter
was a huge part of that. But there were games,
including in the finals, where Bruce Brown closed and the
reason he closed it was, we have to collectively solve
whatever the defense is throwing at us right now, and
CACP could do it, Jamal Murray could do it. Erin
Gordon could do it. Michael Porter can make shots, but
he can't always think on the fly. I think Cam

(12:28):
Johnson among your elite role playing shooters, is as good
as anyone at okay, what are they trying to do?
What are we trying to do? Read it on the fly.
So I think it is a perfect fit for Denver.
I think Cam Johnson is a perfect everything you got
with Michael Porter plus everything you wished you got from
him but didn't, and then even the ball handling like
he has been in Brooklyn these last couple of years,

(12:51):
and you know, role player, low usage guy gets to
Brooklyn this last year and a half and they say, hey,
expand a little bit attack. He's so good at it.
Off the dribble, handoff, off the pick and roll, and
good at it in the exact way that I think
is important for playing with Jokic. Not eight dribbles, not
nine dribbles. It's I'm coming off the handoff and I'm
not open. So how do I extend this quarter advantage
into the next thing. He's so good at it. I

(13:12):
think it's going to be a seamless fit. And it's
why I'm so high on the Nuggets and so excited.
I think Jokic looks at this and says, this is
like if you put in a lab, you put together
a bunch of guys that I want to play with.
This is the group.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
Is this the best team that Nicola Jokic's ever played with.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
I actually asked somebody on the Nugget staff this question,
and they said, I think so. But I also know
that the West is better than it was when we
won the title, and so I think yes. I mean,
we'll have to see it on paper. Bruce Brown knows
how to play this style. That's six. I think Denver
has had six guys who could play the style before.
I think Tim Hardaway Junior you mentioned him earlier. Great

(13:49):
off the ball, off ball, coming off screens, gets his
feet set, he can knock down the shots. He's not
a great like Iso score one or two dribbles, though,
It's almost like his limitations feed into what you want,
because you don't want a guy taking three four dribbles
come off if you need to take one or two
to get it to extend the advantage to it. So
I think he's going to have a great year because
he fits as well. And then you got the Valanchunis

(14:10):
piece of this, which is, you know, a little bit
of a wild card, but they've never had a backup
center of his caliber. So I would say that gives
me eight guys that I really feel confidence in. I've
only ever had confidence in six. So yes, I think
this is the best team.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, you know the part the point you're making about
like interchangeability is really important, and I think like a
lot of it with Bruce Brown was just as much
about Michael Porter Junior and his shortcomings as it was
about Bruce Brown and his strengths. And like, you know,
Michael Porter Junior had some utility. His ability to be
like a secondary rim protector slash defensive rebounder gave some
flexibility for Denver to use Aaron Gordon as a perimeter defender.

(14:46):
And that was the one Like if someone asked me, like,
what's what is Michael Porter Junior better at than Cam Johnson,
That's what I would say, I'd be like secondary rim protection,
defensive rebounding, Like those are the two things that I
think that And if you wanted to say, like straight up, standstill,
wide open three point shooting, he's probably at the same level,
if not maybe a little higher because he's had some.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
I think a little higher. But that's such a low
part of shooting.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
And how many of those are you really getting How
many of these like wide open catch and shoot threes
are you really getting? Right? And so Cam Johnson to me, like,
Cam is not a guy that I would feel comfortable
with guarding the other team's best player in four rounds.
But I do think he's a guy you can deploy
on the second best perimeter defender, a perimeter initiator on
the other team, And so I think that kind of

(15:28):
puts Aaron Gordon in a situation, and you and I
were actually texting about this shortly after the deal, Like
it's it allows Aaron Gordon to remain in the back line,
which I actually think is better for him with the
mileage that he has on his body now too, like
I want him by the rim rather than out chasing
guys around on the perimeter. But it also opens up
this door to where, like I think, I think Adamman

(15:50):
will be able to choose between Cam and Bruce based
solely on their strengths and not be hamstrung where it's
like mpj's not in this matchup, MPJ is struggling with
the physicality in minnesot to MPJ is struggling with this. Instead,
I think he's going to have like legitimate options that
he can go to.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
I love the way you framed this because, first of all,
your point about the defensive end was I think you
were the first one on that, and I think it's
very accurate that it allows Aaron Gordon to be in
the right spot. But what you just said is interesting.
Denver would go with, oh, this is the better option,
but I think now they can go to this is
the right option. It's not like it's the better of
two evils. It's no, this is the tool we need
for this moment, and so we'll go with Bruce, or

(16:26):
we'll go with Tim Hardaway, or we'll go with Cam
Johnson or whatever it is. And the nice thing about
Bruce Brown, you know, because a lot of people ask
me why has he been so bad, you know over
these last couple of years, he is really good at versatility,
which is a weird thing to say. But if you
don't need that, and you're like, no, we need a
shooting guard, it's like, well, he's an okay shooting guard.
He can do some stuff, but he can play the one,

(16:48):
he could play the two, he can play the three,
and he could even play the four. I mean, he's
one of the rare examples of a guy his size
that plays the four at a pretty good level. And
Denver needs that because to your point, you might need
Christian Brown, Cam and Bruce might need Bruce Cam and
Aaron Gordon, any combination of those guys, you can throw
him in. And it was proved that's what they did
in that title run, and he could just plug whatever

(17:08):
hole it is. So I agree. I don't think he
no longer you have to pick the best of bad
options you actually have in theory good options or just
about everything.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
So specifically with Cam, I think one of the other
elements to this is I think he is like legitimately
a full tier, if not two tiers ahead of Michael
Porter Junior. As like an off the dribble shot creator.
He's got a much higher capability of generating separation off
the dribble, and like rescue possession situations, he's got a
good side step three going both directions or step back

(17:39):
three going to his left. He's got like just a
little bit more of like a bag for lack of
a better term, in terms of being able to create
his own shot. There was this idea that Michael Porter
Junior could scale up his offense alongside Yo Kitchen certain
matchups like if Jamal Murray was out or anything along
those lines, and I think that that was true to
an extent, but it felt very matchup or like matchup dependent.

(17:59):
It depended on like type of coverage he was facing,
the type of perimeter defender he was on. I think
that Cam is going to give them a substantially higher
floor offensively because of the different options that they can
go to, like Aaron Gordon has developed into a nice
little low post, low post option as a shot creator.
I like Obviously Jamal Murray with bench units has been
a switch attacker. Actually we're going to talk about a minute,

(18:21):
but you know, Sevalincunis, I think is going to unlock
a little bit of some of the first team offense
with the second team, which I think is going to
be some you know, schemes, scheme consistency there. But Cam
Johnson just gives you guys an entirely different entry point
on offense that didn't exist in the past, and I
think that that's just going to add an entirely different element.
Like so, let me just ask you this. Do you
think Cam changes the way Denver plays at all on

(18:44):
either end, on either end of the floor.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
One hundred percent. I'll go further. I think it's actually significant.
And I'll even disagree with you with what you said
about Michael Porter. And this is no knock on him.
I think he's a great player. And he had the
quote about I feel like my game plateau, and I'm excited.
I hope he's right about that. Honestly, I'm not trying
to I'm not try to like lad on the guy.
I hope he's right about that because I like Michael Porter,
but he actually has been a pretty robust creator, like

(19:07):
individual creator. And you were saying there's matchups. I don't
know if I agree with that, because I don't know
if there were guys where you're like, oh, he has
a size advantage, throw him into the post. He wasn't
very efficient at that. Oh we have a slow footed guy,
let's clear out and give him space. I don't know
that he was great at that. What's great about Cam
Johnson is, yes, it changes the way they play because
they have Christian Brown, who actually got a lot better
as the season went on and over the years, over

(19:29):
his three years in the NBA, and just being able
to take these one and two dribble we run a
hand off, nothing's there, turn a half step advantage into
a full step advantage, and then move the ball to
get everybody into rotation. He can do that. Aaron Gordon's
phenomenal at it, and Cam Johnson I think is this
is the thing from going through the tape and watching,
you know, over the last week, I've been watching a
lot of him in this last year he's actually really

(19:49):
good at it, and in Brooklyn they gave him a
lot of freedom to say, we're running pick and rolls.
Probably if it gets you wide open, great, but it's
probably not do something with it. Get the guy on
your hip and do something with it. And he was parkab,
not flashy, not doing crazy things, but he was remarkably
good at just reading the court and figuring out which
way to go to get shots off. So now I
look at it and I say, your bread and butter
is Murray and Jokic. Aaron Gordon knows what to do

(20:11):
to keep the ball moving and turn these advantages into
big advantages. Christian Brown's getting better. Cam Johnson's probably the
best third option of that that Denver's ever had, and
probably even the second option behind Jamal Murray. So I think, yes, Denver,
I think the ball is going to be popping this year.
I think their offense, when it finds its flow, is
going to be incredible, and so I'm really high on

(20:31):
that starting five. I just think it's the most we
call it Jokic ball. Keep the ball moving, nobody slow
it down, reset, no resets, just keep going into the
next action. They have five guys that can do that.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
It's going to be so beautiful. I'm particularly excited. I
like Cam. I think two is a guy that we
has developed a lot since he left Phoenix, and I
think his reputation is something that is a little bit
misunderstood around the league, Like this is a guy who
showed real on ball chops both offensively and defensively over
the course of the last year and a half. A
couple of like kind of like smaller questions on the

(21:02):
fringe of the roster, and then I want to kind
of zoom out and look bigger picture with the league.
What are you hearing about the jonisvalan Chuna situation. Is
he going to be a Denver nugget.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
I think he will be on the Denver Nugget roster.
I actually think that it'll be resolved relatively shortly. And
a lot of this has to do with Denver holds
the cards here. I mean, Denver can force him to
do what they want. You know, how much of a
fight is he going to put up? I think he
wants to be in Denver for a basketball reasons, you know.
I think I've heard some people say he doesn't want
to be a backup or backing up Jokic is so tough.

(21:31):
I don't think he has anything to do with those things.
I think being part of a winning culture is great.
He's bounced around the league a lot, and I think
it's been tough on him, and I think he sees
stability over there. Denver can't offer him that, but they
do hold the cards, and I do think they'll be
able to talk him in to hey, look, this is
going to be a fun year. This isn't Memphis, this
isn't Washington, this isn't New Orleans.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
We like each other.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
We like each other.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
You know.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Justin Holiday had this great quote the year he was here,
which was twenty twenty four, and he said this, being
here this year made me believe in basketball again because
he was a journeyman and there was a lot of
teams and I hear of this from a lot of people.
There's a lot of unserious teams and organizations, and you
go there and if you're not part of the like
toxic culture or whatever that's going on here, you're just like,
I'm in a looney bin. People that go to Denver,

(22:13):
not all of them, but the people that go to
the Denver that just want a good stable culture. They
find it there, and I think Valentinas will find it
there as well. They'll talk them into it. But at
the end of the day, with Valentunis on the roster,
I put Denver in Tier one, and I put them
not like one B or you know, the number two
or number three. I put him right there with whoever
you think is best in the NBA. I put him there.

(22:35):
Without valentiunists, they have the same problem they always have,
which is every second Yokage is on the court, we're
going to be hemorrhaging points. So he's essential to their
title odds, and I think that's the reason that they're
going to say, sorry, man, we can't budge on this,
so before we look at where they rank at the
top of the league. Because I'm fascinated by that concept.
I have a couple more small ones centering around yonas

(22:55):
Valentiunis with Dayron Holmes. Do you view him as a
guy that will potentially threaten Jonus and his backup spot
or do you view him as more of like a
guy who's going to be in two big looks as
essentially an oversize four. I cannot imagine him overtaking vald Gnis.
I mean, for one, just the sides, he's not that
big of a guy. I mean he's a young guy,

(23:16):
so he's still filling out. He actually, I think it
did really good work over the last four months or
so getting his body bigger than what it was. Yeah,
vound Junas is a seven footer with the you know,
broad shoulders, big, big, thick guy. So number one, no,
absolutely not. But the second part is I'm not sure
he'll be in the rotation. You know, he'll compete with
Zeke Naji for backup power forward, but Denver also can
play Cam Johnson at power forward. They can play Bruce

(23:38):
Brown at that spot, They can play Peyton Watson at
that spot and move other people into the guard. So
to me, Doron Holmes doesn't only have to beat out
Zeke Naji, but or Aaron Gordon Stagger, whoever it is.
But then you have to beat out all the other
guys that you can just play small. So I like him.
I think it'd be putting too much pressure on him
to expect him to be a part of the rotation.
I think he'll get minutes just by eighty two game season.

(23:59):
But my expectation is that this will be a true
like training Will's year for him and he won't be
a meaningful part of their season.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, it's an important thing to Mr. He's literally not
played NBA Basket CAAM for so there could be an adjustment.
They're one of the things I'm specifically excited about with
jonas found erin As we talked about this a little
bit earlier. We hinted at it, but like, is the
scheme consistency. So one of the things I've noticed consistently
with Denver over the years is that when they go
to their bench, because they haven't had a good backup
center option, the majority of the time, they've gone smaller,

(24:26):
and it's you know, maybe it's the anology, maybe it's Aaron
Gordon at the five, but they just go to a
switching defense and then on the offensive end of the
floor of the opponent because they're going against a bunch
of perimeter players, also ends up switching everything and then
it kind of just devolves into this like Yoka or
excuse me, Murray and Gordon like picking on matchups. It
might be Gordon attacking out of the post, who might

(24:47):
meet Jamal taking a big out on the perimeter or
a smaller guard to the post and just working a
lot of ISO against switches. I think Jonis will give
them the ability to essentially have scheme consistency from the
starting group to the bad essentially meaning Jonas can run
the same version of the drop coverage that Nikola Jokic
does up at the level or deeper drop depending on

(25:07):
the matchup. And then I think he's going to allow
them to continue to run their a lot of their
like five out type of attack with a dribble handoffolkrum
at the top of the key in the form of Yonas,
and Yonas is capable of popping the way that Jokic
is in ball screens. Yonas is capable of like like
he's got a big, a backup big who can't handle
him on the block, We're going to toss him the
ball and he's going to be able to go to
work there. And so in terms of all the versatility

(25:29):
we were discussing earlier, now the Nuggets will have small
ball looks and the ability to maintain some schemes consistency
when they go to the bench.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
He might be right about that. I think Valanchiunas is
good at those things. Maybe he's better than we've seen.
And when you have a team that's you know, you're
not if a guy is a good at a thing,
do you alter your offense to run that style? Whereas
Denver already runs that style. So if he can do it,
then of course we'll allow him to expand on that.
So it's interesting. David Adelman said this yesterday on the broadcast,
So I think you're onto it, even though to me

(26:01):
it seems a little bit foreign. David Adaman said that
exact thing. He reminds me of Jokich. He'll be able
to play like Jokic with the second unit, and it
will be interesting. If you knew that, you know, it's interesting.
I'm taking this a little bit of a different direction.
Let's just say it's a little funnier. I don't know
if people know this, but Serbia, well, really Yugoslavia and
then Serbia and then Lithuania have a nice history. I

(26:22):
mean it's a thirty year history and really going back
because the breakup of Yugoslavia and the breakup of the
Soviet Union happened at similar times, and so you get
this like golden era of Serbian basketball. At the exact
same time as the golden era of the Soviet Union
and the Lithuanian basketball, and they had a nice rivalry.
And who did they have, Vladi Devots or Venus Sabonis,

(26:42):
two all time great European centers who just happened to
be hitting their peak at the same time and played
similar styles more or less. And so there's always been
a nice rivalry between these two countries. I say nice.
I don't know if they would say it's nice. I
think it's actually contentious. But what's cool about it is
those are two basketball nations in Europe. Those are the
two in my opinion. I mean Italy if you go
back even further, but and then France Spain they've had

(27:04):
their different eras. But if you go back one hundred
years and just say, okay, those countries really adapted basketball,
and now you got two of the best of their
you know, own countries now on the same team. And
I'm just curious if it brings out the best of
them in that way. So your point about Valentunis can
play like Jokic. I almost wonder if it's like, hey,
Lithuania and Serbia, here we are. Let's both you know,

(27:25):
kind of play this style and get things going.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, can Yogic bring the best out of him?

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (27:28):
Exactly No, And honestly, like I'm not trying to sit
here and say like Yonis can do a Yokic impression.
That's not at all what I mean. It's more just
like there scheme consistencies is good in terms of being
able to run certain types of sets, but then also
there's a lower bar with the bench groups, like Yonis
will also be going against lesser talent, and that's really

(27:49):
the thing is, like can he run a reasonable fact
simile of what Yokic does against lesser talent and still
have some impact? And I do think that he has
the potential to do that. And again, like if there's
a specific set that's getting Jamal good looks because of
the matchup and the scheme that they're running, you can
run that with Yonis and a bench group and still
have some success there.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
And some teams a backup center is Trey Lyles.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, it's likely, and you just handled the ball.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
You're like, hey, all right, sorry, you're giving up sixty pounds.
Good luck down there.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Exactly exactly a couple other small ones, any chance the
Nuggets bring Russell Westbrook back.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
I don't think so. I don't see it.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Is it more of like we have too much guard
depth now or is it like we had the Russ
experience and we're done with it.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
What I think it is is that Russ is a
lowed player. Denver had a shallow bench last year. So
you have a guy who makes up the entire personality
of your second unit. That's good because you didn't have
anything else. They do have personality now, they do want continuity.
Russ changes that. He changes the entire dynamic. And then
on top of that, and I know Russ fans. I
enjoyed Russ. I thought he was phenomenal this last year.
People are going to be mad at me for saying that.

(28:54):
I look at this year. Every team has one guy
who's sort of like the odd ball to odd character. Yeah,
but he the curveball to the character of the locker.
I don't think never has that this year. Maybe Peyton
Watson he gets an extension this year. We'll see. He's
kind of still coming into his own. But I look
at that, I go Russ is a curveball, good and bad.
I think Denver looks at it and says there's nine,
ten to eleven guys that can all play at any

(29:15):
given night, and they all want the same thing and
are aiming for the same thing. You bring Russ in,
It's like, okay, everybody change because now we have a
different personality, a different style. I think they enjoyed their
rust experience and I think they're done with it.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
They did get the most out of him out of
anybody post primary ball handler Russell Westbrook. I think also,
like just in general, last year, you guys were in
a different position. I remember you came on the show.
We talked before the season, and you like straight up
said before the season, You're like, I don't think we
can win the title this year, and you guys actually
ended up overachieving and getting closer to it than we thought.
You know, But like last year, you guys were in

(29:46):
a situation where high risk, high reward options were like
something you had to consider. This year, we just talked
about it earlier. This might be the best team nicoll
A Yoak which she's ever played with, so like, there's
no need to take a high risk, high reward option
in this particular situation. This question before we zoom out
started talking about the rest of the West. There has
been a narrative surrounding the team, especially with the coaching

(30:07):
change and the idea that the young players were not
being given enough of a leash to show what they
can do. We talked about how two playoff runs ago,
Peyton Watson was like playing extensively down the stretch of
the regular season and then was just like literally not
used against a Minnesota Timberwolves team that was huge and athletic,
and you might have seen some utility in your big

(30:29):
athletic forward that could help the situation. So with the
influx of guys like Bruce Brown, Tim Hardaway Junior, even
the at the Ford spot with the Deron Holmes, are
you worried at all about this potentially taking minutes away
from guys like Jalen Pickett, Julian Strawther, Peyton Watson and
not affecting their development.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, let's put Picket to the side, because I just
don't know how much I love the guy. I'm the
biggest Jalen Picket fan in the world, but I just
don't know if he's in the cards for the Nuggets.
Strather and Hayton Watson and Deron Holmes I guess you
can add him there. Those are the three guys, but
I'm not worried about it because Denver had relied on
those guys to hit in years past, and they don't.
Now Tim Hardway juniors there, Bruce Brown's their balance unis

(31:11):
is there? If those guys don't hit, you're fine. The
problem for me because it's like, did they play the
young guys, would they have won? I don't think so.
But here's what happened. Calvin Booth was very very specific
about what the plan was. We have drafted these young
guys because we have to and we might suffer. He
even came out and said, in the title defense year,
it's gonna be one of our worst years. I don't

(31:32):
know if we're going to defend the title this year,
but we have to use it as an investment. The
Nuggets didn't invest in it, and then it was like, well,
we don't have the flexibility now because and then last
year they signed Zeke Naji or that contract extension or
actually at the same time they signed him, and it
was like, is he an eight million a year player? No,
but let's get him there so we could trade him.
That's our only middle of the road contract. He never played.

(31:53):
So I think what my problem was wasn't play the
young guys. They're good, They're gonna be good. It's the
plan requires those guys to at least betrayed. Yeah, and
they weren't even given a chance. They weren't tradable, and
you didn't win. So it was like to me, you
you lost on both fronts.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
So Jalen Pickett obviously, as we talked about most likely
going to be out of the rotation, we talk about
Julian Strather and Peyton Watson. Do you think one of
the do you think Julian gets squeezed in this situation?

Speaker 2 (32:16):
So Julian is competing with Tim Hardaway Junior and they
are kind of similar players. Yeah, Tim Hardaway Junior, I
think obviously a veteran, more consistent, even though he fits
funny for a veteran, he's not the most consistent player.
I think he will be when he plays with Jokic,
but Julian Strather is competing with him. I think the
challenge David Adaman has and by the way, the biggest
X factor to me outside of Jamal Murray's just health

(32:37):
and everything.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
Else, which is always in next.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
David Adaman. We saw him in a playoff run. Awesome.
That's different from managing an eighty two game season, especially
when you talk about ten eleven guys who could rotation.
How do you manage that? That's its own sort of
challenge of leadership. But to me, Julian Strather is competing
with Tim Hardaway Junior, and I think Tim Hardaway Junior
will have a leg up in it. Adamman's challenge will
be how do you win on both fronts? Tim Martiway

(33:03):
Junior plays, but where do you find minutes for Julian
Strather so that he's not just sitting on the bench
for months on end?

Speaker 1 (33:08):
And I wonder if it ends up being because of
how deep they are in other position groups, And with
Cam Johnson, I wonder if they can buy Jamal Murray
more days off, which could be a thing that ends
up allowing for more opportunity for guys like Julian to play.
Like you could argue that with Jamal every time there's
three games in four nights, he just give him a night.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yeah, you almost have to, honestly with him. But with
Peyton Watson though, circling back to him, he's the one
guy I look at it. There's one thing that concerns
me about Denver. It's this, Peyton Watson is the only
defensive player on the bench. Bruce Brown can defend, but
I don't know if he's a stopper. Tim Martiway Junior isn't,
Julian Strawther isn't, Valanciunis isn't. And you have Christian Brown

(33:47):
who's very good against specific types of defenders, and you
have Aaron Gordon who's good. There's a gap in there
that is for Peyton Watson. He has to become playoff
playable for them so that they have all options, they're
versatile enough to guard everybody, and then there's some teams
that you can need all three of them out there
because you you know that you have a lot of
offense that you have to cover. So to me, he's

(34:08):
going to start out as a guy. He's the one
guy that I think has to play through good and
bad games and play every single night because he has
to get to the point where Denverrick can rely on
him in the postseason.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Yeah, he could be an interesting look if you if
you've I mean, I actually I think Christian Brown played
really well. I thought he at in big spots in
important moments in the series. He figured out how to
at least be somewhat effective against Shay at times. I
actually want to talk a little bit about Denver's defense
in a second in that playoff un because thought it
was fascinating. But Cam, I think could play the two

(34:37):
and so you could see universe, especially with how well
Aaron Gordon shot the ball, where like if you needed
to go super big and athletic, you could theoretically play
a couple of those forwards alongside Jokic with the defense,
I thought it was really fascinating that up until I
can't remember which game it was of the finals, but
there was a point in the finals before I think
it was before they beat the hell out of them

(34:58):
in Game six, before Indiana beat up Okasee, where Denver
had logged the best defensive rating out of any team
against Oklahoma City. If you had to explain in sixty seconds,
what how Denver managed to get as many stops against
Oklahoma City in that series? How would you break it down?

Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, here's the thing, and well, it's funny that you
mentioned Kawhi Leonard not having a great series, because what
Jokic specifically. I mean Jokic is your anchor on defense
and that he has limitations, but I always said he's
actually a phenomenal defender at a lot of things. He's
really bad the most core thing, which is spread pick
and roll, especially if you can put shooters out there.
Kawhi Leonard doesn't like the spread pick and roll. James
Harden did and he had some really nice games. Jokicic

(35:38):
king guard guys that are trying to iso on the elbow.
He's just smart. He knows how to cut off the
angles and into what you do. Oklahoma City is similar
in this way. They do have a good pick and roll.
But what Denver really did was they threw zones out there.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
And David Adaman will actually, I should say Andrew Munson,
who's coaching the Summer League team, one of the assistants.
In the lead up to Summer League said Adamman wants
experimenting with a lot of things this Summer League because
we're working on some new identities next year. I prided
him on it, Hey, what is that? What is that?
What is that? And he finally let go, well, we're
gonna play a lot of zone in Summer League, and
I thought, man, they ran a lot of zone against

(36:11):
Oklahoma City. They didn't do it a whole lot all year,
although they did do it against Oklahoma City in the
regular season a lot.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
And then they did it the two three were they
doubled shave every time across half court. That was a
fun game.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, they weren't the ones that invented Who is it
that invented that style? And Denver copied it? But yes,
it was.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
It was.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
It kind of threw them off. They didn't know what
to do in the regular something like that. It was
pretty dominant. So Denver went to zone in the playoffs
and it was very effective. And I think they looked
at that and said, is this less of a gimmick
and more of something we can build our identity on
going forward. And I'm up two minds about that, because
one I do believe and I remember I used to
do a show with George Carl and he was so

(36:48):
big about teams aren't running zone enough. If I was
coaching today, I would be running a lot of zone,
a lot of zone. And George Carl, whatever you think
of him, very good at forward thinker about where things
are going. He always was, So Denver's gonna think I
used that, and I'm excited for them to experiment with it.
But also, eighty two games is a long time to scout,
and if they run it all year, I think it

(37:08):
worked as a curveball in the playoffs. You run it
all year, Is that just all right? Denver's his own team,
here's how we do attack it. I don't know, we'll
find out.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yeah. I like if. I think defensive IQ is an
underrated element of that part of the floor in the
sense that you obviously had Christian Brown and Aaron Gordon,
two players that I think are good defenders on the floor.
But Jamal's smart and he's a little bit of a
defensive playmaker, and so is Jokic, and in general, they

(37:36):
just were a smarter defense than the other teams that
went up against Oklahoma City. And I want to credit
Adaman for this too, because Minnesota and Indiana, their dumbasses
went out there and tried to pick up Shae full court,
which compromised them at the point of attack almost immediately
in every single situation. And there was some success that
Indiana had with their ball pressure and wearing Shaye down
and exposing a little bit of a lack of ball

(37:58):
handling depth for Oklahoma City. For the most part, it
was like abundantly clear, especially with Jada McDaniels, who was
just literally looked lost against Shay in that third round.
But I thought Denver went into the series with the
appropriate pickup point, the mixing up of coverages, the sagging
off and the short closeouts, the passing link closed outs.

(38:18):
They forced Oklahoma City to beat them with their brains.
And they didn't lose that series because they didn't get
enough stops. They lost that series because in the fourth
quarter of Game four and in the fourth quarter of
Game five, nobody showed up offensively other than Yokich and
that ended up being the nail in the coffin. But
like if they get a couple, like if Michael Porter

(38:39):
Junior misses a couple of wide open threes at the
top of the key in Game five, Jamal Murray misses
a wide open three in the right corner in Game
four in a big spot, That's the thing that's exciting
for me as we look forward, they just have so
much more depth offensively and depth in general to where
I don't think they'll wear down at the end of
games the way that they did. But I thought that
they just showed a very intelligent approach defensively to getting
stops insid Oklahoma City team, and I just want to

(39:01):
give them credit for that because, like, I think it's
a proof of concept, so to speak, because Denver was
not just bad defensively to end the season, but like
kind of embarrassing for Denver Nuggets basketball to be as
bad as they were.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
This is why you're so good at this. I don't
mean to compliment you on your own show. That's why
you're so good at it because you get to the
heart of something for it. You're watching all these teams.
You're not a Denver guy, but you're getting to the
heart of like a core identity for Denver. And one
of what I think it is is they are going
to force you to play the game on their terms.
And a lot of people think that of Yokiic's pace,
he's going to slow it down and you're gonna have
to be at his pace. But you said they were

(39:33):
going to make this a mental game. They were going
to say, Okay, we're not good. You're way more athletic,
you're way quicker. So we're going to turn this into
how do we turn this into where we're on level
fit footing and now you're going to have a skill advantage,
but we're going to make this a slow down mental game.
And the zone was a part of that, just you know,
playing low Shaye I had this great staff from Mark
Campbell who said, I'm picking rolls. I think he was

(39:55):
one of the lowest point guards in terms of where
he received screens because he's not a great pull up
three point shooting threat. So teams would sink and say, hey, no,
you have to pick the screen below the line. Denver
did that as well, and they mixed in some zone
and to me, that was their way of saying, take
everything out. We're playing this style because it's slow and
it's cerebral, and we feel like we can beat you there.

(40:18):
So I think that's part of it. And now they
have a smarter team than ever. And even in that series,
I don't mean to pick on Michael Porter. You have
six great possessions in a row, and one where you
completely screw up and give a layup. That was him
all his whole career. Is that six good possessions one
where you just completely messed up and it's a wide
open dunk. I think just take out those wide open dunks,
take the three or four you give up a game,

(40:39):
erase those and it makes a huge difference on how
effective you are defensively.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
The attention to detail I when it comes to especially
big possessions in crunch time, it's actually the higher floor
guys that coaches trust the most. Can I trust you
to be in the right spot, not make a mistake
so that my star and dictate the terms of what happens,
because I ultimately it is going to be that guy
who ends up determining everything. All right, let's zom out
top of the West right now. According to DraftKings, the

(41:04):
Denver Nuggets have the third best oughts to win the title.
Houston is in second place at plus seven to fifty.
You guys are at plus eight hundred. I think Oklahoma
City is right around like plus two to fifty in
that range. I am very tempted to pick Denver's my
favorite to win the title. The biggest thing that I
keep coming back to is, I think, separate from anything
having to do with on paper talent, I just think

(41:27):
they match up extremely well with Oklahoma City so I'm
on the fence. I don't know where I'm going to land.
I'll probably decide when we get closer to October. Make
the case to me for why Denver should be the
team that is favored to win the title.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
Well, first of all, I'm going to start by saying this,
I have only once ever picked did the Denver Nuggets
to win an NBA championship, and that was in twenty
twenty three. So I'm one for one on pick it up.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
Hell yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Now, I will say, because I heard you say this
on a show the other day, that you're like, this
is a July prediction, We'll have an October. I might
make a January, February, March predictions. Then I think it's true.
We're making predictions we don't even know. I faun Chin
is coming over. I think the Nuggets are gonna win
it this year. I think they have everything that it takes.
I just have such faith in Jokic's ability. I happen
to agree with you. I don't know ranking guys number one,

(42:12):
number two offense, I don't know. At a certain point,
you're just saying, this is a short list of guys
that are so good that you can't. They can solve
every problem. Jokic is one of those guys, and he's
never had a team with this many guys that can
contribute to his brain. That can be an extension of
what it is that he's trying to do. So I
look at that and I agree with you. I mean,
they gave Oklahoma City trouble and they had the most
flawed roster of the last four years, and they still

(42:32):
gave him a hard time. I think they're going to
do it again this year, if they can be healthy
and everything comes together for him. I do think Houston's
going to be a great regular season team, and I
think they'll be a good playoff team. I'm skeptical about
Kevin Durant's ability to make it through four rounds, and
I'm just skeptical of the accumulation of talent does not
always equal you know, Oh, this is a great team.

(42:53):
It's going to have to come together. They might do that.
I think he Mayadoka is a great coach. Defensively, they
certainly did it last year. I don't know. I can't
see the finish line for Houston the way I can
for Denver and then Oklahoma City. We know they're great.
I mean, they've already done it. I think that's going
to be by far the biggest challenge. But to your point,
there's something about their style that I think Denver kind
of understands and can compete with. And there's just no

(43:15):
solution for Yo Kich Hartenstein's great chedholmgering By like guarded
him for one game before they said no, we're never
doing that. Ye switches are we putting you there? So
I look at that and I just say, you know what,
that's going to be a great series if we get
to it. But I think Denver might have the pieces
to get it done this time.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah. I keep coming back to a couple different things.
Joki's best player, and I think he's on a tier
on it by himself, which I think is a unique
advantage in the sort of situation. They are the most
experienced team and have like the best continuity out of
the contenders like Oklahoma City. To me, yeah, strangely like
they they I also think in general that teams can

(43:52):
scale up more on defense in the playoffs and they
can scale up on offense. Uh for example, like a
team like a team like Denver is able to approximate
a good playoff defense despite no evidence of that during
the regular season. But you're never going to see a
team on offense be just like ass all year long
on offense and then suddenly just start picking teams apart

(44:13):
when they get into the postseason. And so I think
that's part of it for me, Like a team like Houston,
for instance, Like I could see Houston, like if you
ask me right now, like, how do if Houston loses
in the playoffs, how does Houston lose in the playoffs?
They can't score? That's what it is. Kevin Durant faces
a super physical defender, struggles to get separation as a
thirty seven year old player at that point in time,
and he's just not able to do quite enough. And

(44:35):
the defense is still really good, But so did the
great offense that they lost to who scaled up their
defense and they ended up having an issue. Okloma City,
to me, still has major offensive warts and experience warts.
That's kind of the angle that I see them fitting into.
But now you got me all interested. Before we get
out of here, I have to just like make the
case for you why I think Jokic is the best
offensive player that I've ever seen I think Steph Curry

(44:58):
is the best advantage creator I've ever seen in the
sense that just his sheer presence on the court creates
more openings than any player that I can remember, in
terms of just like he just breaks the brain of
every defense that he goes against, and guys start making
mistakes and jumping out on switches and leaving dudes open,
and there's dunks and layups that they give up. The
thing with Steph is Steph was never as reliable as

(45:21):
the top guys as like a key possession late in
the game, he needs to get a bucket, the team
does switch everything correctly. He just was never as good
at that, and there was a little bit more variance
being that he's a jump shooter, so he was prone
to some cold shooting nights. Lebron to me, was not
quite as good of an advantage creator as Steph, but

(45:41):
he was still nearly as good of an offensive player
because he had the big physicality the ability to get
to his spots. Jokic, to me, bridges the gap between
both of those guys. He is a top tier historical
advantage creator in terms of the ability to break the
defense and create all of these openings. He has a
similar packed to steph for his ability to consistently bring

(46:02):
the rim protector out to the perimeter inverts the defense
to where now there's less size waiting at the rim
for your cutters and your slashers and your closeout attackers
and stuff like that. But then he adds to that, this,
if you let me go one on one and you
switched everything properly, I have a shot that I can
get to that I'm going to hit sixty percent of

(46:23):
the time and there's no variance, and like, like, even
in the games where he played poorly, like Game four,
for instance, down the stretch, he was able to get
to the bucket a few times and get a get
a couple, like makeuple shots for him. And so to me,
like he brings the best combination of indomitable on an
island scoring but like defense breaking, advantage creation, and that
to me like puts him. I just can't ever remember

(46:45):
watching a player that had that same impact on a defense.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
You made a great case. I like it. I mean, look,
here's how I feel about Jokich. He's the only to
the not the only, more so than any other player,
including Lebron, there is no defense for him like whatever
you do, because he has every skill, so every defense
is a compromise to something else. And there's a lot
of teams where even Lebron and his heyday, it was, well,

(47:09):
we're gonna force him in to submit range, we're gonna
run him off the line, we're gonna protect the pain,
We're gonna do this that Jokic is comfortable with literally everything.
The question is he's a team player. He's, as they
called Steph, a collaborative superstar, and so you need the
guys around him who can complete the players, because sometimes
the right play is to drag things over and then
find the open guy. I just don't think he has
any weaknesses. I tell people I think they say best

(47:31):
passing big man of all time. He's an steer passer.
I mean he's a top five passer I think of
all time. And then it's not his number one skill.
His number one skill is probably his touch from floater zone. Yeah,
I mean it's he's ten percentage points better than average
from that spot and he can get to there anytime.
And then the third skill he has that's also probably
number one all time or at least on a short list,

(47:51):
is he has the best hands I've ever seen, every
loose ball, every pass of defensibody, you could throw it.
I mean, this is why Russ was so good. With
one of the reasons Russ was so good, he throw
a ninety mile per hour pass for from me to you,
we are whip a pass like that and Yepe just
would grab it out of nowhere and finish it. So
he has three skills to me that he might be
number one all time in or at least has a

(48:12):
case for it. And he can do everything, so it's
a strong case. Here's where I disagree her. Here's where
I go different the goat conversation of the greatest or
any of those types of things. Basketball is such a
diverse game. It's such a wide game that there's so
many different ways to dominate. I think there were guys
who were more individually like the thing they did best.
There were guys that were better at that than Yokicha's

(48:34):
at any one thing. So if you had to, if
you could press that advantage, it was like, Yeah, that's
the most dominant thing I've ever seen. And so there's
that way to win. There's oh, I can do more
different types of winning and then the last thing is
the game is just so different. I mean, this is
what makes Lebron so incredible. As he came in two
thousand and three, he was on TRL. I saw this
on Twitter the other day, which is great. I don't

(48:55):
think anybody listening to the show he even knows what
TRL is. It was a cable show from thirty years ago.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
I don't know elis.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
He was on TRL and MTV twenty five years ago
and he's still playing in the NBA. And he went
from those Piston Spurs era grinded out. You know, he
played with Verajao and Jerkaskas at the same time, and
then he evolved at all these different evolutions and his
skill set fits all of it. I think Jokic is
standing on the shoulders of giants both from the NBA

(49:24):
history but also from European history, and it's just hard
to compare and say, what would of a lot of
these guys done if they Jokic learned the game from
them and then built on top of it in a
way that I think is underrated how much he's added
to the game. I mean Jokic coming into the league
and what he's added, even though you don't have another Jokic.
The game has changed in how the coaches think about

(49:47):
it because of his impact, and so it's so hard
to compare guys that didn't have that advantage. They stand
on his shoulders.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Yeah, you know, it's been fascinating. I had a mailbag
question the other day where someone was like, why does
nobody high volume post up anymore in the NBA? And
there's like a kas I'm like you, if you look
at Yokic's posts, if you just like sorted all players
in the NBA by the number of post ups they run,
Jokic is just on a It doesn't even look right.
He's like off the chart. And I've always I kept

(50:14):
obviously on the spot had to come up with an answer,
and when I immediately went to was like NBA defenses
are so sophisticated now with their ability to shrink the
floor and to make things feel tight on a post up,
Like I watched this with Anthony Davis for years. I
watched Laker fans be like, why don't they force the
ball to Anthony to I'll tell you exactly why they
didn't force the ball Anthony Davis because he'd get down
there and they would load up the strong side and

(50:34):
the open man would be in the weak side corner,
and he was just unable to get the ball there
in a way to where he actually had an advantage
he could attack attack there, And so as a result,
like there's just like I was watching DeAndre Ayton footage,
you know, obviously scouting him for the Lakers, and like
if you watch Ayton's post ups, he just like doesn't
know what's happening around elsewhere on the floor while he's
down there. And like Jokic just has that like court

(50:55):
awareness level one hundred to where like you didn't even
have to look to know where help defenders are, and
he's just is always aware of what's happening around him,
and so he can actually abuse size mismatches and take
advantage of where the opening is in the defense in
a very sophisticated era of NBA defense. And it just
to me has been the seperator.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
And this is like some fun because we're both basketball players.
So I think you might resonate with this when you're
playing not just pick up a really more structured game
and you get the ball in the post, what direction
or what kind of move? At least for me that
I'm going to try to attack with has a lot
to do with how I'm being guarded and where the
help is because and this is what Yokis does every
single time. It's Okay, I see this guy over here,

(51:34):
so I'm going to make the move towards the center
of the paint because I want him to be the
help guy. And this is what he's doing all the time.
He is like, I'm attacking here. Oh he's not helping
all right, I got to my spot or I spun
the other direction. And that's what he's doing every single time.
So when people say they can't post up or these numbers,
I always look at it.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Go.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
This game was straight up. Nobody helped. Nobody. Doubles would
have a one point nine points per possession on post up.
But he's not just going to score. He's going to
just read and he's constantly manipult. Everything he does is
to manipulate somebody else on the court. And it's fun
when you watch it over and over again, you see
it more and more and you're like, this is fun
to watch. Man. It's just a cat and mouse game
with all five guys, and all five guys are kind

(52:09):
of sitting there a second behind him, going like, am
I doing the right thing? Am I wait? Nope? Oh
he was attacking me yep, my bed.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
It's so funny because I in general, over the years,
different players resonate with me more or less than others,
Like I have grown to enjoy watching Steph Curry so much,
but then like Shake Gils Alexander, for instance, it's I
don't enjoy watching him play basketball as much even Luca,
And I'm a believer in Luca's talent, I don't think

(52:36):
Luca would derive the same reaction from Timartway Junior and
Cam Johnson playing with now they would be like, yeah,
we're gonna get some open looks, but they're not gonna
enjoy playing in that system as much because Joki is
very much a collaborative talent in the sense that his
success comes in ball, in player movement, whereas for Luca
it comes in pounding the air out of the basketball
and passing with four seconds left on the shot clock

(52:57):
to an open shooter. And I just I thought that
that clip that you shared of those guys reacting is
just is like the embodiment of the Yokic experience. You
watch him and you just smile because it's beautiful basketball.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
I get to participate in it, not to be the
recipient of it. I get to participate in it. And
I think for a guy like Tim Hardaway Junior that especially,
I think that's what he's looking forward to, and it's
one of the reasons I think he of everyone is
gonna benefit because it's not just standing on the corner.
It's hey, come run some pick and roll with me.
I'll read what's going on. I'm gonna flip the screen.
I'm gonna slip it whatever it is, and it's like
you're involved in it.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
Yeah, Adam, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time. Tell
everybody where they can find your work.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
All NBA Show with me and Tim Legler and then
d if you're interested in more Nuggets coverage five times
a week with d NVR Nuggets. We have fun over
there and we have some I think Bruce Brown's gonna
come on sometime in the next week or two, so
we're gonna have some cool some of the new guys
hopping on.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
That's awesome. I really appreciate you coming on the show. Everybody.
Thank you so much for sporting shout out to Serious
XM for taking care of us here at the studio
at the win. We will be back tomorrow night with
some more Summer League reaction. I'll see you guys then.
What's up guys. As always, I appreciate you for listening
to and supporting Hoops tonight. It would actually be really
helpful for us if you guys would take a second
and leave a rating and a review. As always, I

(54:10):
appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you could take
a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it. The
volume