Hoops Tonight x Nerd Sesh - Top 10 in NBA: LeBron ageless, Curry & Warriors back? Luka vs. Giannis - The Herd with Colin Cowherd

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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(01:57):
to hoops tonight. You're at the volume. Happy Monday, everybody.
If all of you guys had an incredible weekend, well
we last week finished our top twenty five players in
the NBA rankings list, like we do every single year,
all new criteria, still the same amount of upset people,
and I thought it'd be fun to try to pash
it all out with Logan and Carson, the guys from Nerd,

(02:19):
SESSH guys the area of the list where I faced
the most debate. There's obviously a good amount of debate
around the tail end of the list, Like I didn't
even have Paul Georgie in my top twenty five this year.
There's just so many good players, Like I actually had
a preliminary list that was like forty six forty seven
players long that I all thought had like at least

(02:40):
reasonable cases to be considered top twenty five players in
the league, but not too much debate. There a little
bit of stuff like, oh, where do you put Jaw
that's kind of weird. Where do you put Victor wembin
Yama because he's got all this potential, Like how do
you factor all this kind of stuff in? But to me,
that stuff pales in comparison in terms of interest to
the top part of the list. And so for me,

(03:03):
the eleven guys that I picked for my Superstar Tier
my main thought process here is basically, these are guys
that if they're the best player on your team, you
have a solid chance to build a championship team around them. So,
for instance, the guys immediately behind them for me, guys
like Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, even at this point in

(03:25):
his career, there's such a big injury factor that there's
just such a big kind of like there's a blind
spot in terms of whether or not you're actually going
to get that type of production out of them. So
this is to me where the cutoff is at eleven guys,
And the eleven guys in the particular order I put
him in were Jokic, Luca, Jannis Sga, Anthony Edwards, Anthony Davis,

(03:46):
Jason Tatum, Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, and Joel Embiid.
So what I want to start before we actually kind
of work through this list, is there anybody that you
guys had that you think deserves to be included in
this tier that I left out with you, Carson.

Speaker 3 (04:01):
No, I think that you have the right group here.
But the one dude who I do want to mention,
and you already explained why he can't be here. It's
because he is never healthy. Unfortunately, when it matters most
never available for the playoffs is Kawhi. I still think
he's a top seven player when he is healthy. When
he is on the court, just completely dominant, brutally efficient
score gets where he wants physically in the playoffs, ridiculous

(04:24):
pull up shooter. Still a really high impact defender. But
when you're talking about four straight seasons that he hasn't finished,
like even at the point where you can put him
on the court, and he's not one hundred percent, like
he can't be out there at all, I just don't
think when you're talking about intrusting a full year of
your franchise that you can have him as a top
ten guy.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Unfortunately, Yeah, I tend to agree, and if we had
healthy Kawhi, I think he'd crack my top ten. I
want you guys to let me know if I'm off
my rocker a little bit. I know I'm an excitable
young fellow, but I really wonder if Victor win Boniamoa
should already make this list. The reason I say this
now before you you know, before I'm struck down here

(05:05):
by my fellow basketball geniuses, he's in one of the
worst basketball situations in the NBA, Like, his roster is
just not up to par, and I do think that
Wemby is a step down from like being the number
one de facto option in comparison to all the other
guys that we've mentioned. He's not perfect, He's in no
means a finished product right now. But in this hypothetical

(05:27):
scenario that we're doing, you know, it's a league wide redraft.
The league is restarting, and so the way I see it,
there's a lot of guys I think that have different
and better arguments considering the fact that they're going to
have different rosters around them, and I think Wemby would
be the beneficiary, a really big beneficiary of having just
a more competitive roster where the league is more balanced

(05:47):
in the way that we're doing this thought exercise, So
just with his defensive tools, how great of a defensive
playmaker he already is, how much better he could potentially
get next season? Do you guys think it's crazy that
I'm considering him for this list that I think he
has a legit case to be in the top ten here.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
He certainly has a case I mean, the hard part
is is like it's mostly theoretical at this point in
terms of actually seeing him play. Like there's something so
unique about the NBA playoffs in terms of like going
from matchup to matchup, like, like, to me, Anthony Edwards
is such a great example of this, where Anthony Edwards
like put up a monster statistical postseason, and even over

(06:25):
the final half of the postseason, like the second half
of the Denver series through the tail end of the
Dallas series, like he still was putting up crazy statistical
performance relative to most of his peers around the league,
and most people think he sucked like that. That's how
crazy the NBA playoffs are. It's so physical, it's so intense,
the game planning is so good that like it's just

(06:47):
really really hard to play well in that setting. And
when I think about Victor, I just think it's if
someone told me, like we're gonna all just hands down
agree he's top five in the league at the end
of the season. Of course I believe you, but it's
just so risky and so theoretical. He was just a
really tough player for me to rank in general, And
for instance, the reason why I put Bam over him,

(07:07):
is I still think like for a playoff series or
a playoff run this year, BAM's just experience and his
ability to play in physicality and like what he can
do playing with others is a five out big I
just kind of view him as to say, for bet,
the Kuhi bit is super interesting because like he's twenty
eight eight and five on sixty three percent tru shooting
as a playoff player with the Clippers. That's an absurd efficient,

(07:31):
amazing production. It's just to Carson's point, like, in addition
to not being able to finish a playoff series in
the last four years, there has even been examples, particularly
last year when they lost to Phoenix, I should say
the year before this past year when they lost to Phoenix,
and then the year that they made it to the
conference finals. In both of those cases, they got to

(07:52):
April with healthy Kawhi, like did our job got him there?
And he looked fucking awesome to start the playoffs, and
in both of those cases he inevitably broke down, and
so there just wasn't really a case there. The only
other guy there was two other guys that I saw
get mentioned as potential dudes. To be included in this list.

(08:14):
A lot of guys brought up Jalen Brunson and a
lot of guys brought up Devin Booker, And again, I
think both of those guys are awesome, and I do
think they could be the best player on a championship
team if they are surrounded by overwhelming talent, like I think,
if you plug those dudes on the Boston Celtics, I
think they're still championship legitimate, top tier championship contenders. But
I just think in terms of the physical imposition on

(08:37):
the game and their half court shot creation ability, they're
still just on a tier below the guys that are
in that top tier. So it sounds like, for the
most part, we agree. Let's move on to the actual list.
Can we all agree Jokic's one? Does anybody even want
to try to argue otherwise? Logan, you got it in you,
you got an adversarial take, No.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Sir, I'm not gonna be fighting that uphill battle today.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
The reasoning for me was pretty simple, Like I think that,
and remember, for the people that weren't paying attention during
the actual list, the criteria was very simple. If we
had to start a season this fall, meaning literally a
month from now, and I've got a draft player to
carry me all the way through to June, and I'm
building from scratch around them. Who gives me the best chance?

(09:23):
And the Jokic case to me is, first of all,
I think he's the only other guy I even considered
for the spot is Luca. I think that those two
are clearly a level above the third best guy. But
in terms of Luca, I think it's harder to craft
defensive role for him than it is for joks. Jokic
just has a typical high drop coverage big or low

(09:44):
drop coverage big. His ability to defensive rebound, He's gotten
so active with his hands, He's a good defensive communicator.
Did not have a good defensive playoff run by his standards,
but Luca's was somehow way worse. So like I find
it a little bit easier to build around him. And
then the two things for me with Jokic that were
differentiators were one, I think I can run more styles
of offense with him. I think his ability to just

(10:06):
kind of flow from side to side as a five
out big I can plug so many different types of
other ball handlers around him. The ability to put a
forward next to him that can't shoot is a huge
Like I was thinking about this the other day, like
could you even imagine plugging Aaron Gordon in on the
MAVs and how clunky that would be with their four
out spacing and having Lively and Gafford rolling to the
rim with the guy that you just don't have to

(10:27):
guard in the corner, and the issues that that that
that that could present, Like they just they like that
that is a unique trait that Jokics brings to the table.
I just think I think in general that I just
have a much more straightforward but at the same time
diverse path to success with Jokic as my folkrim.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
Do you, I completely agree. I think that there's a
gap between him and Luca offensively, and I understand that
people get excited when Luca has these monstrous box score performances,
and there's something about a player doing it from the
perimeter with that sort of isolation shot making that I
think people just tend to prefer as like a viewer,
people tend to think it's more exciting, and so then

(11:06):
people always want to put Luca in that best player
in the world thrown. I still think there's a gap.
I think that with Jokic you are getting consistently a
shot quality that we've arguably never seen in the history
of the sport. Right he gets himself a sixty five
percent shot at will because that is what he shoots
on paint touch shots. He's too big, he's too skilled,

(11:26):
his footwork is too good, his fakes are too effective
for anybody to actually stop him in single coverage out
of the post. And then he's also the best passer alive.
And I think you hit on a key point with
the multifacet impact in with the stylistic versatility, like Luca
has stretches where he is relying heavily on the pull
up jumper, the step back threes, and he is really

(11:48):
inefficient and he's actually taking your offense out of rhythm.
And of course that is way way outweighed by the
good in totality. But with Jokic, there is such a
floor and he's always going to be extremely impactful as
a screener, as an offensive rebounder. He's gonna make quicker decisions,
have quicker, more efficient touches, and I do think he's
a higher impact defensive player as you say Luca was

(12:11):
really catastrophically bad in the finals, and I don't think
that he is that bad of a defender. I didn't
think he was that bad of a defender in the
regular season. And there are some people who will say, well,
it's harder to build a good defense around a mediocre
defensive center, which you would say Jokich is a pretty
average defensive center than it is even a bad perimeter
defender like Luca. And while I can kind of understand

(12:34):
that perspective because center is the most important position, I
don't think it's true. If you look at the twenty
twenty three Nuggets and the level that they defended at
and Jokic was legitimately defending at I would say a
slightly above average level in that run because of his hands,
as I c his elite, elite.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Recas and the Aaron Gordon Park. Yeah, the Aaron Gordon
part is the interesting part because, like again, he is
one of the best defensive forwards in the league, and
you can't play him alongside a certain type like that
was a role for him that never worked until he
went to Denver.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
And you'll get you such an effective off ball player too,
Right when we go back to the offensive side, Like
this is a big who curls around screens and can
hit the mid range jumpers. He runs inverted pick and roll.
It's just such a remarkably versatile skill set. The efficiency,
I think that he's clearly number one.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, yeah, the the the they're relying on, I'm gonna
pitch it right back to you logan here in just
a second. The the relying on the step back jump
shot piece is super fascinating to me too, because like again,
he shot thirty eight percent on step back threes during
the regular season, which is a great number. And so
in the large sample, there's a points per possession element
with Luca that you get that's super advantageous. And that's

(13:42):
the thing, Like he's like basically any half court static action,
he's gonna get you one point one points, like he's
gonna hit like which is awesome. On the massive volume
that he's doing. He did something crazy, like I want
to say, over two thousand pick and rolls, ISOs and
post ups including passes over, which is just an absurd number.
Like his volume and shot creation just doesn't even resemble

(14:04):
what you see elsewhere in the league. But for the record,
there's just that you get to the postseason and those
further shots away from the basket, the field goal percentage
starts to dip. Like he shot thirty two percent on
step back threes in that playoff run. In the NBA Finals, specifically,
he shot twenty four percent on step back three on

(14:28):
three point shots in general, So like, again, that's becoming
an issue in terms of that small sample when we
get there, he can't make it, which is eerily similar
to the conversations we used to have about James Harden
or like he would just have these crazy step back
jump shooting seasons and then he would get to the
postseason and they wouldn't go in at the same rate,

(14:49):
and it would become an issue. And one of the
stats I saw that I thought was super fascinating. There's
this stat on Synergy. It's called score percentage. I'm sure
you've seen it, Carson, but like the one of the
things that score percent and quantifies as just the sheer
percentage of your possessions that you end up leading to points, right,
And specifically, Jokic's scored percentage on a shot creation is

(15:11):
above all of his peers around the league because of
the fact that like there's there may not be the
because he takes somebody hooks and floaters. There may not
be the same you know, massive sample size efficiency that
you might get from a guy like Luca because he's
taking so many threes, but he's just getting these incredibly
like consistent baskets. There's the poor shooting nights are few

(15:32):
and far between, and so I think it's it's a
pretty clear case logan. I have Luca too. I'm assuming
that we're all in the same page there. Do you
think that there's any case for Yannis at three to
be above Lucas I actually.

Speaker 4 (15:46):
Do have Yiannis at number two on my list.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
And the last thing that I want to add real
quick about the Jokic Luca dynamic that you guys are
talking about the other feathering cap I put in Jokic's
cap is that you're talking about the volume that lou
has during the regular season and how much of a
burden he does playing like that. I think that's a
reason that Luca was so banged up last year. It's

(16:08):
hard sustaining that kind of you know, load on your
shoulders every single night, and Yokic's playstyle leans himself into
you know, not taking that kind of beat up.

Speaker 4 (16:17):
Also, just the way he's built. He's strong as an ox.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
The guy's built like a tank, like his play style,
and I think is the way he plays the game
just lends himself to being more healthy, more consistently, and
just better when it comes into those late game scenarios.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
Also, I think if I can add one thing real quick, Logan,
just because you were mentioning volume. The other thing that
we've seen in one of my takes that makes people
more irritated sometimes is that Jokic is the best score
on the planet, which I do think is a more
vulnerable title because his jumper was quite cold at the
end of last year in the playoffs. But when the
jumper is falling, I think that he is and the
reason is that he's completely unstoppable out of the post,

(16:56):
and that is simply the most efficient offense anybody can
create for themselves. And in the playoffs he rants his
volume up. He's a thirty point per game playoff scorer
in the last four years, and he does that with
better efficiency than anybody else with remotely comparable volumes. So
I do think Jason, you mentioned the volume that Luca
has offensively and it's still a little bit greater than Jokic's.

(17:18):
But Jokic's volume ratchets up as a scorer in the playoffs,
and we know raw volume generally isn't the best way
to be a ceiling razor offensively. You probably have to
decrease your usage a bit to have more off ball value,
to play a more conducive, free flowing style of offense.
That's the last thing I wanted to say. Mute my
mic on all Yoki matters from now on. I'm done
for the.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Day, one hundred percent. But I do have you, honest
at number two on my list, and his injury history
at this point, guys, is very concerning. We're talking about
these injury prone players that maybe we omit from this list,
the Kawhi Leonards of the world. If he's off your list,
if Embiat is off your list, if you're concerned about
Kevin Durant getting up in an age honest on tetchakunpo oh,

(18:01):
Jimmy Butler as well, Jannis is slowly kind of creeping
into that territory, right He's played in three playoff games
the past two seasons, and I understand that being a
component for him being lower on this list for some people.
But when it comes to the Luca Yannis dynamic, you
don't have to gimmick up your defense around Jannis, you know,
you don't have to Like Luka, you don't have to

(18:23):
just put him on the corner and hope that Luca
pays attention.

Speaker 4 (18:25):
You know, he's not a traffic cone.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Giannis is still really impactful on that side of the ball,
and I just value that two way impact a little
bit more than Luca's ability as an offensive engine, because
I think he's brilliant, right. I think he's the second
best offensive engine in basketball, and he's the second best
play maker in basketball compared to Jokic, and he's arguably
the best scorer in basketball. You just talk about that.
Carson Jokic I think consistently has a higher floor. But

(18:49):
because of Luca's volume and that three point shot, he's
a little bit more prone to the scoring explosions. I mean,
the guy dropped you know what, seventy last year on
the Hawks. Like, I just don't think Jokic is ever
going to impose himself the way that Luca does in
that respect, where he can have those kind of explosions.

Speaker 4 (19:05):
But on Giannis versus Luca.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
I know Yiannis is flawed, still is an offensive basketball player,
but he's grown as a playmaker. Legitimately, he is still
unstoppable in certain matchups. Jason, you're talking about the dynamic
of matchups in the playoffs at the start of the episode.
You have to have a Yannis stopper on your team,
and there are just some teams that don't have that guy.
And so I know that Gianni's flawed, is an offensive player,

(19:29):
He's never going to be that kind of perimeter initiator.
You probably never want to go to him in late
game moments, right. He needs that high level guard that
can compliment him in crunch time. But I think he's
more impactful on the two way side, and I think
in a lot of ways he's gotten a little bit more.
He's gotten a little underrated after these two seasons. But
I understand with his flaws and with his injury history,

(19:51):
if you're cooling a little bit on Giannis at this
point in his career.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
It's been interesting how these three guys have kind of
like jockeyed around for me, but then still kind of
landed in the same place. And what I mean by
that it's been weird seasons, like, as Carson pointed out,
like Jokic. Jokic to me last year was head and
shoulders above the rest of the league. Like I didn't
think it was particularly close. I do think it's close now.
I think that Jokic's decline as a jump shooter was

(20:17):
a real problem in last year's postseason. I mean, especially
in that Minnesota series, like he kept popping open to
the top of the key and he just literally couldn't
make a shot. Think about how big of a deal
in the twenty twenty three playoff run it was that
he could just drive closeouts, Like how often he'd be
like beating Bam or beating Ad with just a pump
fake from the top of the key because the dude
was shooting forty five percent from three. And yet at

(20:40):
the same time, after all of that, after he declined
as a jump shooter, after he had a worse defensive
postseason than he's had in a few years, still had
him at number one. And then it's like Luca kind
of like in a weird way, And I feel bad
saying this because, like I mean, he made it to
the finals. He had easily the biggest moment of the
postseason with that game winner over Rudy Gobert. In general

(21:00):
at a bunch of big moments over the court. He
had a bunch of big moments over the course of
that postseason run. But it's like all I can see
is like there's a couple things that stuck in my head,
Like he consistently kind of struggled at the end of games.
That go Bear shot was a big shot, but he
shot poorly in clutch time. In that entire postseason run.
He tailed off at the end of games. He looked
like he was getting tired. He looked like he was

(21:22):
struggling to get separation. The Celtics series, We've talked a
lot about the defensive end of the ball, but like
his jump shot fell apart at the tail end of
that series when they went to Dallas, he couldn't make
a jump shot, and it like from three point land
in particular, it was like really really struggling. And then Jannis,
it's like that I actually thought he deserved more consideration
for MVP last year, and then he goes and misses

(21:44):
the postseason again, and he's played two and a half
postseason games in the last twenty seven months, and so
it's weird because all three of them kind of have
these different you know, kind of like down marks for
different reasons, but I kind of have them all landing
in that same kind of hierarchy that I had. The
conversation is simple. Luca's benefit to me, he's very similar

(22:06):
to Yokic in the sense that he's very physically imposing,
very difficult to match up with, Like him just ripping
through Jada McDaniel's like tissue paper is actually crazy. It
reminds me of the previous year when Jokic ripped through
ad and then like rip through those guys like like,
it doesn't make sense what Luca does to extremely gifted

(22:27):
perimeter defenders because of his size advantages. It's just simply
because he's not quite as as amenable to playing with
others and because he's just not quite as consistent on
a possession by possession basis with the variability, I have
to put him a level behind. But that said, like,
to me, the gap between what I can do with
Luca on offense and then cover for him on defense

(22:49):
versus if I was building from scratch with Giannis, especially
within the context of this type of format, it's just
a little bit too wide of a gap for me.
Like if I draft Luca from there, I theoretically could
just take extremely high level role players the rest of
the way and have a good chance to win. If

(23:10):
I take Yannis, I gotta find a high level ball handler,
like a really high level ball handler. And theoretically, in
a snake draft, like if I drafted third and I
took Giannis, I might not get the player until player
of what fifty six fifty seven, right, So, like I have,
there are some limitations in terms of building around Yannis

(23:32):
from the standpoint of like he's this absolute wrecking ball
of production. I do think he's one of the top
tier defensive players in the league in a high leverage
situation like a postseason series. His ability to be in
two places at once on defense is like cheating. It's
like crazy. He is such a valuable weapon, but there's
just like we're he's gonna turn thirty this year and

(23:52):
he still doesn't have a left shoulder hook, Like, he
doesn't have a shot that he can go to over
a defender that goes in more than forty forty two
percent of the time, and and that's an issue, Carson,

(24:15):
did you have Luca over yon Us.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
I'm going to be in a category of my own here.
I do have Luca number two on this list with
your criteria, Jason, But if we were doing the ranking
of these players in a vacuum, then I would have
Yiannis number two. I do think that Jannie is slightly
starts from game if health were guaranteed. That's honestly the

(24:40):
thing that makes me give Luca the edge here. And
it's not that Jannis is consistently hurt, even it's just
enough of a concern. Luca is very available, and even
though he was dealing with some nagging injuries in this
playoff run, he was still out there. He was able
to play, whereas Jannis we're talking about again two and
a half playoff game in the last two seasons. I

(25:02):
do think that they're very close. The reason that I
give Jannis the edge is I think Luca is just
flawed enough as an offensive engine, even though he is great.
I think he's one of the top fifteen, maybe about
the tenth best offensive players that we've ever seen, But
compared to Jokic, there is a gap in terms of
how conducive the play style is to scaling with other

(25:24):
really good players. Again, when it comes to ceiling raising
off ball, Luca has improved a bit, but there's still
lots of room for improvement there, and there is a
volatility that doesn't exist with a Jokic. And I'm only
saying that. I know that I said I wouldn't mention
Yokic again, so I cheated. But the point is the
difference between the two of them, because they are the
two best offensive engines in basketball. But why I do

(25:47):
view Jokic in a bit of his own tier, and
I think that Jannis in a vacuum is actually slightly
better than Luca. Luca had bad series in these playoffs.
He was pretty bad against the Clippers. He was bad
in the finals, and especially with this older version of Luca,
who in a lot of ways I think is the

(26:08):
best that he's been because he has grown as a
pull up shooter, but also who simply doesn't get to
the rim at nearly the same rate that he did
when he was younger, Like he is just more prone
to all Right, I'm shooting twenty percent from three in
this series, and I'm gonna take ten pull up step
back threes in a game, and like that can be
a tough watch. Again, that is not good for team offense,

(26:28):
and he doesn't have the same pats out of it.
Of all, Right, well, I'm just gonna be super effective
as a screener. I'm gonna get a quick touch at
the elbow and spot a cutter, all these things that
like a Jokic could do. Again, I cheated there, But
I also think that Giannis is a little underrated right now.
And Jason, what you say about having to pair him
with a high level ballhandler if you want to win
the title, Well, I think yes, that's absolutely ideal because

(26:51):
of his limitations as a half court shot creator in
crunch time, which is something that I've been critical of
for his entire career. It's the reason that, honestly, I
was skeptical when people in wanted to proclaim Giannis as
the best player in the league. Yes, that's ideal, but
also like look at twenty twenty one. He didn't have
that Middleton played well on that run. Drew Holliday was
wildly inconsistent. Middleton, although he did play well, was still inconsistent.

(27:14):
Yiannis was just such an overwhelming force, and he was
so dominant defensively as well, where I do think he's
taken a bit of a step back now with a
few more years of tread on his tires, that he
was able to will you there. And when you talk
about the great regular season forces that we've seen as well,
like when it does come down to just carrying the
group around you to fifty five sixty wins, like nobody

(27:36):
has been better at that than Jannis over the last
seven years. I mean, that's what he's done for the
Bucks year in year out. So I think that we
tend to hyper fixate on his one flaw, which is
that he is not a skilled shot maker, that he
is not a skilled half court creator, and I want
to be clear that is a meaningful flaw. I don't

(27:56):
want to dismiss that. At the same time, we've seen
him dominate in spite of that in twenty twenty one
in the playoffs, in twenty twenty two in the playoffs
without Middleton on the floor, when he was incredible, and
the last time he was there was ugly because even
though he dropped thirty eight and twenty on the heat
in that final game, which I think we can sort
of gloss over, he was playing a dominant basketball game.

(28:17):
Then he melted down in the clutch. He couldn't make
free throws, he couldn't overpower Bam physically, and it was
a really, really ugly way to go out. I do
think Bam is like the worst matchup in the league
for him because he moves so well, because he's so strong,
Like you can use the term Yannis stopper, but like
Bam is is the one most problematic matchup for him
in basketball. I still think at the end of the day,

(28:39):
you're getting a guy who walks into thirty twelve six
and a half on sixty five percent through shooting, has
improved as a playmaker, and is a top twenty defender
in basketball. It's very, very very few teams have an
answer for and because he does have such overwhelming physical
imposition and the playmaking is so good now and the
defense is so good now, I think the baseline there

(29:00):
is higher than Luca. So, although it feels like I'm
making a Yanni's case, I do have Luca number two,
but it's really because of health.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, the hell thing has been really bizarre at the
last few years because like that was literally his calling
card is like, oh, he damn near inverted his knee
in the conference finals, and here he is playing and
dropping fifty right, Like that was kind of the thing
I don't want to try to because that's the case
that a lot of people made in the comments out
when we were doing the Yannis case, was like, what
about twenty twenty one, And I don't want to undercut

(29:32):
that because a couple of things. First of all, like
Chris and Drew, there's more to that identity of that
team in the sense that like that was very much
a defensive minded team that mucked things up, and it
was kind of like, as long as one of Drew
or Chris has it going tonight, we have a really
good chance of winning this particular game. But then there's

(29:52):
also this part and I hate doing this because I
hate trying to undercut champions, and they are bonavide NBA champions.
That title. There's no asterisk in my book there. Giannis
is a legitimate finals MVP. All that stuff that said,
I thought that was the weakest champion in the last
five six years. I think that that twenty twenty one
Bucks team was that, Like it's so funny how there's

(30:15):
a focus on the bubble as being the weird season.
But the truth is is like everybody played normal basketball
till March, and then when they went to the bubble,
there were zero positive tests, So like everyone that was
there played like it was like a static basketball environment.
The twenty twenty one season was weird. It was short.
We had like remember all those like would be like, oh,

(30:35):
half the bulls are sick, they're all out this week,
and it's like we've got this weird roster of a
bunch of journeymen playing today. Like that was a weird season,
and like all the teams that made it to the
conference finals in the previous year all got hurt if
you remember correctly, Like it was just kind of a
weird year. So like I'm not trying to undercut that
or I'm just saying like they haven't been able to

(30:55):
replicate that since. And like last year it was like, oh,
let's bring in a high level ball handler in terms
of Dame instead of Drew, and then they promptly ended
up having a whole bunch of other issues that were
opened up by virtue of the fact that Drew was gone.
And so the point is is, like I do think
it's just a little bit tougher to build around Yiannis.
You guys, I'll make good cases. I know we could
talk about this forever, but I'm gonna move on just

(31:16):
for the sake of keeping the show moving right now.
I have Carson at Jokis, Luka Yannis, and I have
Logan at Jokis, Jiannis Luca. Do you both have SGA
at four? Let's start with you, love.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, I do have SGA at four, and I would
hear an argument if people wanted to above Luca.

Speaker 4 (31:32):
I think that he does have more two way value.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
I think SGA is a damn good defender, but I
just trust Luca Moore as an offensive engine.

Speaker 4 (31:39):
I think SGA brings less playmaking value.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
But when we're talking about like scaling to the playoff stage,
that was a big criticism of SGA's this regular season
shade detractors, and I don't know why there's that befuddles me.
Why there are groups of people who just hate on
certain basketball players while they actively hope to see their downfall.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
That's strange to me.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
It's the foul grifting. I think. I think the foul
grifting is like objectively unlikable, and when they see guys
do the light throwing their body and throwing their arms up.
I think people just automatically get I also think.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
She's just really good at using his body though, like
the way he initiates contact and uses that elbow, the
change in pace. I think Sga has one of the
most like elegant, beautiful games in basketball. He's one of
my favorite players to watch, just he's unstoppable. He has
so many counters to everything that the defense throws at him.

(32:29):
His change of pace is elape the way he explodes
to the bucket. He's one of the best finishers around
the rim. Like when we're just talking about inside the
arc scorers manufacturing shots everywhere on the floor from inside
the arc, SGA's up there for you might be the best.
Jokic is definitely up there. Luca's in that conversation. But SDA,
if you have them above, you know, above those guys,

(32:52):
he's not lagging far behind and so top tier offensive engine,
great two way value. But I don't think he's as
prone to having these scoring explosions. Is like Luca, Like
I think in I worry about him going across the
finish line, and you know, when you need those big
time like scoring explosions. SGA's will give you thirty every night.

(33:14):
He's damn he's damn good for it, thirty six and six.
But that's one of his flaws. And then, uh, I
think in comparison to to Jannis, he just couldn't have
the pronounced defensive impact. But Sga is one of the
most consistent guys in basketball. And when you're talking about
that malleability, Jason right in terms of roster construction. In
this thought exercise, I think Sga is one of the

(33:35):
most malleable guys. Like Giannis gives you such a high floor,
such a high baseline, a great guard gives you that
great ceiling. To me, SGA is one of those great
guards that gives you that great ceiling. And I think
you could put a lot of guys around him that
compliment him. He's gonna take the scoring load every night,
he's gonna give you thirty, he's gonna play make it
a pretty high level, and he's gonna play really great defense.

(33:57):
So I don't think I could have anybody else in
this number four spot. I don't think I hear an
argument for anybody else to crack this top four. I
think they're solidified for me.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
With this criteria. I agree. If we were just talking again,
presuming health pet to peak, then I would probably have
game in the fourth one game.

Speaker 4 (34:15):
I'm taking one game. I'm taking Lebron man.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
No, okay, well listen, I respect Lebron to.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Take Lebron Overriannis for one game. Still, it's close.

Speaker 3 (34:27):
I do think that, Yeah, the one game makes it interesting.
But if you were talking even about like just a
playoff run, I mean, there's just a level of physical
dominance that Jannis can sustain over that run. With SGA,
there's just a scoring floor that is the highest in basketball.
I mean, it's ridiculous. This is a guard who scored
thirty points per game last year and made almost fifty

(34:48):
four percent of his shots from the field. So I
think he's a very clear for Really. The only limitation
is that he's not an elite playmaker at this stage.
I think he's an above average play but you see
like there are stretches in the series where he's just
not processing things quickly enough. I actually thought that in
the Dallas series he was underrated as a playmaker, and

(35:10):
I thought that although that offense was a bit stagnant overall,
he was pretty consistently getting the ball to the second side.
He was making skip passes, and it was just shooting
and a lack of ball moving around him that really
let him down. And in that environment with these congested paints,
right when you are basically constantly seeing a big and

(35:30):
helping position because they're just willing to roam off of
whatever shooter was in the weakside corner, like Shay is
still scoring with great efficiency in that environment, just because
as a one on one shot creator, he's the most
consistent dude that we have in the league isolation pick
and roll. He's the leading restricted area scorer among all guards,
and he is the best mid range shot maker at

(35:52):
the guard spot that we have in basketball. Threatens the drive,
stops on a dime, as Logan mentions, has ridiculous body
control numerous counters. He's just incredible. I also think there
was so much weird SGA discourse to come out of
the Dallas series. On the defensive side of the ball.
There were also people who thought that like it was
his fault that Derek Jones Junior and PJ. Washington were

(36:12):
knocking down wide open corner threes as if when you
blitz a pick and roll ball handler, you don't need
the lowman to slide over and tag the roller, like
Esgay's doing his job, and he did it reasonably well.
Like those were the shots the thunder wanted to concede,
and dudes who are generally not good at those shots
were good at those shots. So I do think Sga

(36:32):
is an above average defender. That he's not as good
as the stocks totals would suggest, but I think he's
an above average defender who does have some versatility on
that side. Not the most versatile offensive player in terms
of like off ball value playing with another real on
ball star, but I don't care. He's so damn good
at what he does that I think he's stamped in
this spot. There's just such consistent offensive brilliance.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
Yeah, I'm actually like really interested to see how he
plays over the next few years, as Jalen Williams gets
better and as Chet Holmgren gets better, Because you're right,
like he's a bad catch and shoot player at this point.
He's he's kind of a little bit of a catch
and hold kind of guy, and so I'll be really
curious to see how he develops in that regard, Like,
I think he's closer to Luca than he is to

(37:16):
Jokic in terms of offensive engines that have like real
ball in player movement kind of baked into their game,
which I think leads to like, I think that I
think that helio centric style and and ball handlers that
like can't play off the ball, I think they do
lead to a little bit of a diminishing return there.
Like just simple example with Luca, Like one of the

(37:36):
reasons why you can get away with sticking Porzingis or
Horford on PJ. Washington or Derek Jones Junior and just
having them camp in the paint and ignore those dudes
on above the break jump shots. One of the reasons
they can get away with that is because PJ. Washington
and Derek Jones Junior aren't involved in action. They aren't
like they aren't like coming out of a dribble handoff

(37:57):
in the corner, like because that's the thing that's how
you'd attack. It's like, Okay, PJ. Washington is not hitting
above the break threes, so that means that our center
can park his ass into paint and help everywhere. Right, Well,
what if you actually made Porzingis or Orford run through
a few dribble handoffs, Like that's where you could start
to get some real Not to mention PJ. Washington and

(38:19):
Derek Jones, Derek Jones Jr. Are athletes, and there are
athletes that can get downhill and try to make plays.
But like that's the thing, is, like, that's just not
the way Dallas plays. It's not the way Dallas plays
like And so what's so interesting is one simple defensive
adjustment literally crippled Dallas's offense because Luca only can play
one way and and and that to me at this

(38:39):
point in his career, and that to me is and
for the record, it's not just Luca's fault. Part of
it is the way Dallas has empowered him. And there
hasn't been enough focus organizationally on playing a different style.
And you could tell, I mean even that Mark Cuban
interview the other day, and it's like, oh, Klay Thompson,
like he's not gonna have to like run off the
screens like it did in Golden State. We're gonna spoon
feed him wide open threes in the corner, which one

(39:00):
isn't how basketball works, and two that doesn't actually sound
like something that'll help you the way that you think
it will. Like it's an organizational philosophy that is very
much set around We're gonna have Luca create everything and
spoon feed everybody everything, and there's a diminishing return there.
I'll be curious to see. I'll be curious to see
how Shae develops in that regard, because he's gonna have
no choice because this Thunder roster is so good and

(39:23):
Jalen Williams is that level of player where he's gonna
have games where it's like he's the one who has
it going. That said, I was, I agree with you, Carson.
I thought it was bizarre how as Jay was covered
after that playoff run. I thought for his first playoff
run as the guy with like real expectations, I thought
he did pretty damn good. He was this close, this
close to the conference finals, this close. He actually out

(39:45):
executed Luca down the stretch of that game. He just
made one defensive mistake. He found PJ. Washington in the corner.
Shaye was insane at the end of that game. Remember
that step back three he hit right at the top
of the key that kind of like took the edge
off He had that driving dish to check Homegrin for
the dunk. He had a pull up shooting stretch earlier
in that game where he got crazy hot and hit

(40:06):
a bunch of fifteen footers in a row. He was
this close to sending that game two Game seven in
Oklahoma City, where Oklahoma Oklahoma City would have been favored.
I actually thought he played Luca more or less evenly
in that series. The one thing that is a little
bit tricky there is I thought Luca had a much
tougher defensive matchup, Like Lou dort is the best guy

(40:26):
to guard Luca in the league because he's a fire
hydrant that Luca can't bully, and Lucas spent half the
series complaining at the refs and limping around because Lou
was kind of playing super physical on him and putting
that level of like hurt and pain on him. But
like Shay did play extremely well and I am a
big believer in him in the long run. And like
the other thing, like oh he missed some reeds. Every

(40:47):
damn player in the league missus reeds except for Jokis
Luca Lebron. Like if it's not the top tier passers,
it's like those guys are up here and then there's
a chasm and then everyone else. Like it's such a
natural like transcendent of ability that you can't like teach
or train. It's like you either have it or you don't.
That like, yeah, you get better at making reads, and
Shay will miss fewer reads as he gets older. But

(41:09):
like like with exception of those top tier playmakers, he's
never gonna get to that level. Like, Shay's not going
to be an eleven assist the game, guys, it's just
not in his in his game. So number five is
where I started to get into a bunch of arguments
with people, and the way I see it, everyone below
this tier, everyone below Shae has like gaping holes that
that are like harder to deal with. And so in

(41:31):
my opinion, like I had him beat at eleven and
Ant at five, you could swap those and defend it.
Like if you said, guys, I have an at eleven,
I'd be like, that makes sense to me. I have
him beat at five. That makes sense to me, even
though I had the opposite. My case for Ant was
very simple. Essentially, he's the most available star in the
league right now. You can book him for seventy nine

(41:52):
seventy eight. You know he's gonna play damn near every
game the entire season. I believe that his production from
the postseason was a legitimate leap, So I expect ant
to average twenty eight six and six on sixty percent
trough shooting this year. I think that that's something that
I would be surprised if he didn't reach. At this point,
I think the jump shooting is real. I think all
of that is real. And then as far as this

(42:13):
postseason production goes, I actually think way too much focus
was put on Ant struggling, which, by the way, he did,
but not enough was put on the fact that, like
that Minnesota roster is really limited offensively, Like the roster
is really limited offensively. They were limited offensively all year
because they've got defensive specialists, guys like Rudy Gobert, guys

(42:34):
like Nikhil Alexander Walker, guys like Kyle Anderson, guys like
Jaden McDaniels. These are defensive specialists that are playing massive
minutes for them, and the benefit is they're this big, bully,
physical team. But they of course you can put two
on the ball and pick and roll against Ant and
those guys aren't going to be able to consistently score
off of it. Now, that's not to say Ant doesn't

(42:56):
have a lot of room for improvement. Specifically the first
two games of the Western Conference Finals at that he
was way too passive in just getting rid of the
basketball and not looking to attack in different ways like
in transition or in just straight one on one to
avoid that second defender. But the reality is is, like
I think, in terms of regular season production, he's in
the very top tier of guys that I would expect
to carry a team for an entire season this year.

(43:17):
And as far as postseason production goes, you really can't
do much better than the postseason he just had for
a guy at twenty two, and I think he learned
a lot of lessons he's coming off the Team USA experience.
So each of you, I want you to start by
telling me why you think you're I'm wrong for picking Ant,
and then who you would have at number five instead
will start with you, Carson.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
So I have Ant just a couple spots lower than this,
and I think he's a really tough player to rank.
I do think that his greatest strength is availability and
the fact that he is trending upwards at this very
moment in a way that really nobody else on this
list is Like, I do think you can do a
little bit of projection with and expect a little bit

(43:55):
of improvement this year, because that's just the natural course
of a player of his age going into his fifth season.
And I still think that there is meaningful room for
improvement with him. I mean, I thought in the first
series and a half of the playoffs, but before he
fell against Denver, really I thought that he was outstanding.

(44:16):
Part of that was that the pull up shooting was
just ludicrously good early, especially against Phoenix. I mean, he
was barbecuing them with the mid range game. He was
barbecuing them with the pull up threes. And I think
that we do have to acknowledge that, like he's not
quite that level of pull up shooter like we see

(44:37):
over his first three postseason appearance is like a ten
percent leap in effective field goal percentage as a pull
up shooter, which even if you think like okay, because
he is such an imposing downhill threat because of his strength,
right his ability to just bounce off of guys and
get to those mid range looks like that makes him
a better postseason shooter. I would agree with that. I

(44:57):
just don't know that it's that sort of like that's
where I am still hesitant with the sample size. Even
though it's a bigger sample size now, it's still just
twenty seven games, and there can be a lot of
noise in numbers when you don't have a sample much
larger than that with something very specific like your pull
up shooting. But I am really high on it because
of his strength, because of his athleticism, because he has

(45:20):
been a good pull up shooter when it matters, because
he is generally a plus defender. I think he's a
really really good on ball defender who just has some
lapses in focus off ball, and he can clean up
on that. The reason that I couldn't have him all
the way up at five, though, is what we saw
in terms of his decision making and playmaking in the
Dallas series. I'm with you, it's a tough offensive situation, right.

(45:44):
He doesn't trust Rudy Gobert off the roll, he doesn't
want to hit him, and there's a lack of consistent
shot making around him, and he's playing with two bigs
and he's playing against a really good defense with awesome
rim protection. All of that is true, all of that
is fair. At the same time, he was tentative. He
was not willing to at least pressure the rim at

(46:05):
the necessary level. Like, even if you're facing a great
rim protector, right and it's a congested paint, there are
more good outcomes than bad just for getting to the rim.
If you're Anthony Edwards, right, you make a kick out pass,
you find an open teammate, you draw a foul, and yeah,
maybe you get blocked, maybe you don't finish the lay up.
But also he's like one of the best contested finishers
in the paint in basketball. So I want to see

(46:27):
him lean into his greatest strength more, which is that
freakish downhill pressure that he can apply. And again, I
just think when it comes to diagnosing the defense making
those skip passes, there's room for growth. I thought that
he was okay, but compared to somebody who I actually
have higher than him, like a Jason Tatum, I do

(46:47):
think that Tatum is a more mature playmaker. I do
think that Tatum brings a more consistently elite impact in
the non scoring areas of the game, rebounding, defense, it's
close because Ant is a more reliable number one score
and if you want to favor that, I mean I
have been on that very side of the issue arguing
that for Ant. Like you say, Jason, it's so close

(47:08):
with a lot of these guys. But I think Tatum's
just reached the point where, like he's so great at everything,
but the consistent pull up shooting where he was really
bad in these playoffs, that when that shot bounces back,
which is going to to some extent no matter what
you think, like, that's just a more complete, refined superstar

(47:28):
impacting winning in every way than the very young aunt
who we have at this point.

Speaker 4 (47:33):
I really like this take, though, Jason.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
I mean, well hold it, hold up really quick, Logan.
So Carson, you have Datum at five, Okay, go ahead, Logan, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Have Ant down at number seven. I have two guys
ahead of him. I heare you, though, because I don't
think that Minnesota does him many offensive favors because of
his situation. So when we're talking about doing a redraft
like this, I actually think that Anthony Edwards is a
guy who would be better if you put different personnel
around him, more shooting. Right, We're talking about the upper

(48:02):
echelon offensive engines, Ant doesn't really have a chance to
do that because of the personnel around him.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
I do agree with you, Carson.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
I thought Ant had his moments play making and decision
making in this last run, but it wasn't elite. I
also think again, that has to do with how much
he trusts this personnel to do their thing. So I
think in a different situation where you give him a
role man that he trusts, he could spoon fit feed
him easy looks right. I think in a different situation
he would look a lot better. But I think there

(48:30):
is volatility with the pull up shooting. I think Ant
is going inevitably. I think he's going to be in
this top four one day. I think he's probably going
to be in the top three one day. I think
he's going to be an elite pull up jump shooter.
The reason I have him down at number seven, though,
is I just don't know if I can trust Ant's
shoulder the load of an entire side of the basketball
just yet. Because of those limitations. I think he's a

(48:51):
good defender and you can build a great defense around him.
I think he's a good playmaker at this point.

Speaker 4 (48:58):
To me, it's like.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
It's hard with the situation again because the Wolves are
a great defense and and is their number one offensively.
But I just trust other guys to impact the game,
you know, in other different facets more. I do have
Tatum above him, and I have one more guy above
him that I just trust more to make me elite
on one side of the basketball.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
And so did Tatum at five or Tatum at six?

Speaker 1 (49:22):
I have Tatum at six, and then I have Anthony
Davis at five.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
Anthony Davis at five. That's interesting. I have Anthony Davis
at six. So we're going to debate him in just
a minute. Did you have any other thoughts on it
before we no, sir, okay, So a couple of stats
really quick for you guys. Jason Tatum's playoff run twenty
five ten and six on fifty five percent. Ture shooting

(49:52):
twenty five, ten and six. Anthony Edwards's Western Conference Finals
the series everyone thought he sucked twenty five to nine
and eight on fifty four percent.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
Does that feel refrashedically? I mean, think about all of
the stuff that doesn't show up on the stat sheet,
think about like all the advantages Tatum created putting the
defense in rotation, maybe not in assist How did you
change the entire You don't think I think that that
was more advantage for Tatum than for ant.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
I think I think that Tatum is a far more impactful,
far more impactful defensive player. Right now. I think I
think you were a little bit more high on ants
on the ball even than I am. I think we're
not factoring in enough the job here. Like you realize
what was the advantage that Tatum was creating for the Celtics.

(50:41):
He was running ball screens, typically with guards, where he
would draw a second defender and then throw a shovel
pass over to Derek White standing wide open at the
top of the key as the defenders closing out at
his other opposite shoulder, and Derek White would rip through,
finish the advantage and go from there. Or Tatum would
get a weaker defender on a swim to someone like
Jason Tatum, beat him off the dribble, make that first

(51:03):
driving kick pass. You don't think Anthony Edwards could do that.
You realize Anthony Edwards was bringing a second defender to
the screen every single time against Dallas. The problem was
as a team they couldn't confront it, and again, like
he was, it is being painted as like a choke
job of a series. He had thirty nine assists and
seventeen turnovers in five games against a defense that was

(51:24):
entirely geared to solving him down. Now, for the record,
I actually agree that if I had to start a
playoff series two marrow, I would still give a slight
edge to Jason Tatum. But as I discussed in my list,
this is a theoretical situation where my playoff run is
starting in April. I've got another seven months worth of

(51:45):
reps that ANT is going to get. I've got another
I've got a lot more experience that I'm building around
ANT over that particular time. The point that I was
trying to make is that like literally, at this point,
like Jason Tatum in a situation that, like, guys, let
me just paint it for you very simply, if we
just took Anthony Edwards and swapped him for Jason Tatum,

(52:09):
Just think for a minute, what would the offense look
like in Boston? Like, what would it look like? Do
you think ANT would struggle to generate shots for that team?

Speaker 4 (52:17):
Be beautiful?

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Can you imagine guys, this was what was crazy. Like
Anthony Edwards got more shot attempts at the rim than
any guard under six to six in the entire league
playing alongside Rudy Gobert in a two center system with
a bunch of defensive specialists on the floor. Like, that's
the type of rim pressure that he brings to the table.
And so a lot of my pick there with ant Is,

(52:40):
I'm projecting him to have an MVP caliber season. I
think he's going to be finished in the top three
or four in MVP voting. I think he's gonna play
seventy five plus games. I think he's going to be
one of the best playoff players in the league next year,
even though there are some limitations there. And I agree
there are certainly some limitations there. I think ant Is,
I'm with you, guys. I think he's really scratching the

(53:00):
surface of his potential. But I think a lot of
the way we discuss Tatum, like he does have he
is an incredibly versatile basketball player, I want to be
clear about that, but like his weakness is top end ability,
Like he does not have an elite first step. He
is not an elite shooter. And when you are playing
in situations where the talent around you is not as

(53:21):
good as it is elsewhere in the league. That is
where your top end talent is what allows you to
transcend the circumstances around you. And like I, let's just
put it. Let's just let's take this for example, if
you ask Jason Tatum to run the Minnesota offense this year.
This year, they were what eighteenth in offensive rating or
were they seventeenth something like that. They I'm pulling it

(53:43):
up real quick. They the Minnesota Timberwolves this year were
seventeenth in offense. If Jason Tatum was the primary offensive
engine for that team, are they a top ten offense suddenly?

Speaker 3 (53:54):
Absolutely not. The gap is not offensive. I want to
be clear about that. I do think that Tatum is
I think he is a slightly better playmaker than and
I think he's clearly a better playmaker than Ant. I
also think that Ant is clearly a better scorer. So
that's the thing. That's the only reason that I advocate
for Tatum at all, because I think it was a
brutal postseason for him as a scorer, but I thought

(54:15):
it was really good in terms of playmaking. The gap,
to me is defensive, and the gap is if we're
starting a team from scratch. Jason Tatum is the most
versatile player in basketball, and that's where I couldn't agree
with you more. He doesn't have an A plus trait.
He is B plus at everything, though, and that does
create a malleability where he can be effectively your point
guard offensively in the NBA Finals, and he can be

(54:37):
your center defensively. And I still don't think he gets
enough credit because everybody looks at Jalen Brown and the
job that he did on Ball on Luca, which was
super impressive. But Tatum's ability to be the primary matchup
for the centers, to hang with them on the glass,
to not get attacked in terms of post mismatches, and
then to legitimately switch one through five like that shut

(54:57):
down so much of the desperation that other defenses had
to go to right blitzing and creating four on threes
and getting these easy lobs off the role. Like I
think Tatum was the most important defensive player in that series,
and that's just a weapon and an impact he has
that Aunt doesn't at this stage. So long term, I
think Ant's gonna be better than Tatum. Like, I feel weird.

(55:18):
I feel so weird about how everything's gotten with Tatum
because I feel like there were so many people last
year who wanted him to be in the MVP conversation,
and I was like, he's just not at that level
as an individual player. But then after the playoffs, I mean,
there are so many people who take it much too
far and say he's not top ten and are just
solely focused on the scoring. And my take on that
is it's always been an inconsistency of his it's always

(55:40):
been frustrating. The three of us have harped many many
times on his reliance on the pull up three and
the volatility there, Like we can't pretend that that's never
gonna happen again, that that like was just some miraculous
misfortune in this postseason, but it was the worst possible
version of it. And when I think about a Tatum
who shoots thirty eight percent from over a playoff run,

(56:01):
which is totally possible, Like that's just the most complete
player in basketball. Definitely not the best, not top three,
not even top five, because I don't think Tatum is
a top five player in basketball in a vacuum when healthy.
I just think he and Ant are the two most
available stars and Jokic, so I really like them to
carry me through a regular season and just consistently be

(56:22):
out there on the court. But he's very complete, and
he's extremely versatile, and at this stage, I do think
that maturity makes a difference. An It's twenty three, so
I cannot whatsoever discount the possibility that Ant takes a
slightly bigger lead than I'm expecting, and that could be
the difference between him being five and seven this year.
And I do think he has a higher ceiling than Tatum,

(56:42):
and I think he'll eventually be better than Tatum. It's
just at this point I do trust Tatum more in
terms of all around impact.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
I think you made a very good case. I for
the record, I have Jason Tatum at seven and I
do not see a gap. There's not a large gap.
These guys are all kind of the same tier. For me.
I just my case has been very simple that like
I believe, especially by April, that Anthony Edwards's top end skill,
that ability to just get to a spot. So, like you,
in this postseason run, all of his struggles were against

(57:13):
double teams. It was double teams in passivity. There was
no one on one matchup where he struggled. Absolutely, There's
really no one that can guard him, and that to
me is that top end skill. I for the record,
as I'm building a roster around ant, I would be
hyper focused on finding a versatile defensive forward to play
at the four that can do a lot of the

(57:33):
stuff Tatum does. And I am such a huge believer
in everything that he did. I agree with you, Like,
even though Jalen Brown won the MVP, so to speak,
I actually still think Tatum was their most useful and
most important player over the course of that playoff run.
He just isn't playing very well right now, which is
a whole other issue, which I think he's gonna be fine.
But that was definitely the biggest debate in my list
was where we have Ant So number six I had

(58:10):
Anthony Davis. The main reasoning there is, like Anthony Davis
at the best postseason or post up season of his career,
He's taken a significant leap as an individual shot creator
in a way that he had in the past. Like
you can dump the ball to the post to Anthony
Davis and it's actually good offense now in a way
that it wasn't in earlier phases of his career. I'm
a huge fan of him as a five out fulcrum,

(58:32):
like just in general, it's like a guy who screens
and rolls into space and is in functions as a score.
I actually think other than Jokic, he can't do much
better than him. He was another guy who shot over
fifty percent on floaters and hooks. He didn't shoot over
sixty percent like Jokic's crazy ass, but he shot extremely
well on floaters and hooks. That was a big leap

(58:52):
forward for him this year. I thought he was incredibly
impressive in the first round series. I thought he played
Jokic to his standstill. Though I thought he was incredible
in that series, I thought he was going right out
of my account. I logged the possessions earlier. There were
nine possessions where he like straight up went at Jokic
one on one, and he scored on him seven of
the nine times. By the tail end of the series,
Denver was like straight up double teaming him on the catch,

(59:14):
switching Aaron Gordon on him, overloading the paint. They were
doing all kinds of stuff like that. I think Anthony
Davis is a very useful offensive foundation, and I think
he's one of the very best defensive foundations in the league.
He's been very available over the course of the last
year and a half. I think he's a player that
scales up in the postseason. I think he's incredibly versatile

(59:35):
to build around. I can run four out offense. You
could plug him with Luca and he'd be the most
devastating roleman in the league as a like a spamming
high ball screen kind of guy. But you could also
put him in Golden State and he could run five
out offense. You could put him in Sacramento, you could
put him in you can put him with any type
of guard, any type of wing. Hell, he's playing with
Lebron James as a forward where they're switching all these
actions and he's still having a bunch of success as

(59:57):
a post player. I just am super high on Anthony Davis.
I think he's been playing at an incredibly high level
in the calendar year, going from the tail end of
the regular season, that first round series against Denver, and
then he was one of the five most impactful players
on Team USA this year. I'm really high on Anthony Davis.
I'm gonna kick it to you first, Logan, because I
know you're really high on Anthony Davis. So tell us

(01:00:17):
where specifically you had him ranked and why you feel.

Speaker 4 (01:00:19):
That I have ad at number five.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
And it's the difference in consistency that I feel like
I'm getting with Anthony Davis. Right two years ago, three
years ago, every other Davis and it was a reasonable knock. Right,
that was what everybody said about him, the passivity, the
inability to.

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
Play hard, like he looks scared out there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
Anthony Davis to me, looks confident in a way offensively
that I've never really seen him before. And it looks
very different from his elite jump shooting run during the
title run. It looks very different from even New Orleans
when he's handling the rock. But I think it's a
more reliable and refined offensive game. It's you know, strength
where he has a strength advantage over most big men

(01:00:59):
in the league today and he can go through guys
and use that physical kind of game. But he's also
got a little finesse right shooting turnarounds over his shoulder,
the hooks, and the other aspects of the post game
that he's added to his bag, and so I think
he's a good offensive floor piece, and then defensively, he's
the best defender on the planet and he's going to
make me an elite defense. The reason the Lakers have

(01:01:20):
been a good regular season team is because of Anthony Davis.
And when we're talking about it in this sort of context,
the malleability of my roster, Anthony Davis compliments anybody that
I get him, right, I compare an elite defender and
shooter alongside Anthony Davis. I can get a guard and
he's going to set screens and be a great compliment
for him there on the role. But he gives me

(01:01:41):
the highest defensive baseline of anybody in the league. And
you talk about that series against the Nuggets. I was
really high on Anthony Davis coming into the postseason, coming
into last year, right, he was a top ten guy
to me. That series that we saw against Denver, and
admittedly Jokic did not play a good defense series, Anthony
Davis kind of bullied him offensively, that is, and it

(01:02:05):
was a weaker matchup, but I was really impressed, and
that offensive difference is why I'm fine with him being
five right two years ago, three years ago. Those offensive
limitations may have put him lower on this list, but
I'm confident in him as an offensive player, and it's
that ability to anchor the glass, it's.

Speaker 4 (01:02:23):
All of it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
He's super well rounded, and I just think he'd compliment
anybody that I could have in the second round. He
just gives me such a high baseline. I know we're
gonna get to the playoffs. I know we're gonna have
an elite defense, and he's gonna do enough offensively on
a night to night basis to carry me through. I'm
really really high on AD and I don't know when
the drop is coming right. Ad is getting up there
an age, but to me, he's still in his prime

(01:02:45):
a little bit. In this version of Anthony Davis is
a little craftier, he's a little smarter. You know, it's
a grown man. I know what I'm getting. He's a
real sure thing. And so that's why Ad is five
for me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Ad is tough.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
I have number eight. I think he's better than ANT.
I just think health is more of a concern here,
and he just had his healthiest season in a long time,
arguably of his career, which was awesome. I just cannot
erase the track record, which is that he's one of
the most injury prone superstars in basketball. Twenty twenty one

(01:03:22):
misses half the games, twenty twenty two misses more than
half the games, twenty three still misses twenty six games.
And it's great that he was fully healthy this year
all the way through the postseason even but I still
think that like that's an advantage that an ant that
a Tatum have that I just know that I can
pencil them in for seventy five to eighty games, and
I cannot possibly do that for Anthony Davis. However, I

(01:03:46):
do think he and Lebron are very very close. For me,
I went back and forth between the two of them. Ultimately,
I think I would rather take Lebron for that one
game do or die format because of how he can
just completely control a game offensively and impose himself physically
and just create great shot after great shot for himself
and others. But I do think Ad is the most
important regular season player because of what he brings as

(01:04:09):
a defensive anchor. As you mentioned, Logan, I think he's
the best defender on the planet. I think that he
is the most complete defensive big when you consider the
ability to guard in space, to play multiple different coverages,
to be an elite rint protector, having great hands right
when it comes to getting in passing lanes, affecting pocket passes,

(01:04:29):
and he's a dominant, dominant rebounder of the basketball at
this stage of his career. All of that makes him
like the perfect one. B. The other reason, on top
of his health, that I couldn't quite have him in
the top five is I do just think there is
still a different level of complete offensive dominance from most
of the dudes in that range, or with Tatum at least,

(01:04:51):
there's a different level of offensive versatility. Like eighty at
this point is a damn good scorer of the basketball,
but of course he's more limited as a playmaker than
any somebody else who we're going to talk about in
the top ten, and he just like can't carry that
sort of usage, carry that sort of load where he
is like elevating a team offense in the same way,
he is very much meant to be the play finisher.

(01:05:14):
And you mentioned Jason, He's improved as a self creator.
He's a really good post player, his touch has been phenomenal,
But like fundamentally he is built to be the interior
finisher in my opinion, alongside a great pick and roll
ball handler, a great perimeter offensive player, and so basically
to be a number two offensively, just a great number two.
That's the reason, along with his health, that I have

(01:05:35):
him a couple spots lower than you guys. I just
think there are certain dudes who can carry heavier loads.
Everybody on the list offensively.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
Yeah, it's weird because everybody after four I think has
a glaring hole, Like I have Anthony Davis at five,
or excuse me, Anthony Edwards at five. For him, it's
experience and decision making right, Like it's like you can't
afford to have two really bad games in the Western
Conference Finals because you can't figure out what's happening to you.
Like he averaged something crazy like twenty eight, nine and
ten over the final three games of that series. Like

(01:06:05):
he like he woke up. But it's like those two
games he fell out, fell down two zero, and both
of those games were winnable. Those are both games that
were close, and it's like, that's that's catastrophic. Ad. I
agree with you. He's just doesn't quite have that like
real offensive engine type of capability. We talked about Tatum
and now he doesn't have an eight plus skill. They
all have those issues, and so that to me is
where like you could really kind of you could like

(01:06:26):
Devil's advocate your way into anybody on this list being anywhere,
like like just by by hyper focusing on that. Like
Ad should be eleven because he's not as high level
an offensive player like Joel, and Bid should be number
five because he's won an MVP. You know, like you
could go back and forth on any of these guys,
and but the case you make, I think makes a
lot of sense that it's wish there's a certain amount
of wishful thinking with AD's availability. He's been very available

(01:06:49):
for a season and a half. Is that a blip
or is that a trend? That's what we're gonna find
out right, Like you can uh definitely poke holes there.
But for me, yeah, I just the other things too.
For Ad, why I had him up there. He's one
of my favorite rock fight players in the NBA, Like
when you find yourself in like a real just shitthole
of an ugly playoff game, like he's just a dude

(01:07:11):
you want on your team because he's gonna get offensive
rebound put backs. He's gonna be banging and playing in
the physicality and doing well. Like he's just the kind
of guy I like having in those settings. Number seven,
I had Jason Tatum. We're not gonna spend too much
time on him here, just because we've talked about him
quite a bit. But yeah, again, Carson, I thought you
did a wonderful job breaking down his defensive versatility. He

(01:07:33):
in all likelihood, is the most versatile defensive forward that's
not a center. I think, I think you'd rather have
a guy like Bam or Ad playing those kinds of roles,
but it's just unrealistic because they're centers. But like among
the non centers, he's our most versatile defensive player in
the NBA. I even I even include Giannis as like
a center type of archetype in a lot of ways.
So like, I agree with you in that sense. I

(01:07:54):
thought I thought that, like his offensive role was very
small and simple, but I also thought he executed it well, Like, yeah,
just get that initial advantage and we'll play driving kick.
That's a very easy role. There are a lot of
players in the league that would kill to have that role,
but that's the role Tatum has and he did it
extremely well. Who did I have? So hold on really quick,

(01:08:17):
I have Carson. You had Tatum at five? Who did
you have at se second?

Speaker 3 (01:08:20):
Give him my six yet?

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
And okay, why don't you why don't you go ahead
and give us your sex.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
No, this guy is just off your list, Jason. I
have Joel Embiid in my sixth spot, which is interesting
because similarly to Tatum, who I think I have higher
than some people might at this point. Like I've been
a big, big Embiid critic over the years, and when
people have elevated him into the best player of the
world conversation, I just don't think that he's earned that.

(01:08:48):
And I do think that there are very very legitimate
qualms with his postseason performance that doesn't just come down
to dumb luck, like there are things that have consistently
failed him. The reason I have him at the most
obvious red flag and reason to have him lower than
this or to have him off your list is health.
I mean, he is the most injury prone player on

(01:09:10):
this list, more so than ad, more so than anybody
else who you would have on this list. Here, though,
I am going with a little bit of optimism when
I think about the ceiling that is presented by any
of these players, like the gap between Embiid and everybody
outside of my top four in this list, Jokic, Jannis, Luke,

(01:09:32):
Sga like, it's just massive. I think that when Luke,
when Embiid is playing at his best, when he's healthy
and available over the course of a season postseason, which
to be fair, he's never been healthy over the course
of an entire season. But if you get that one run,
if you strike that gold, I just think the gap
in the ceiling justifies me having him above an ant

(01:09:54):
who I don't think is that level of a dominant force. Yet,
like when Embide is on the floor, he's just a
one of a kind monster. Like this is a dude
who legitimately can give you thirty three to thirty five
points a night on a lead efficiency, who was unstoppable
facing up, who's two hundred and eighty plus pounds, and
yet handles the ball very effectively, obviously going to eat

(01:10:17):
up free throws and then defensively, I have my issues
with him. I think sometimes he gets overrated there because
of his limitations in space, because of his lack of
quickness moving up and down the floor in transition, but
as a pure improtector, he's one of the best that
we have in basketball, So there's just a ceiling of
taking away the rim and being completely unguardable as a

(01:10:37):
scorer offensively. That makes him obviously one of the absolute
best regular season playoff performers. The reasons that it hasn't
translated in the same way to the playoffs. His jump
shot has consistently failed him, and this year was improvement
in that respect. Like we saw him actually have some
really good jump shooting performances against the Knicks. It was

(01:10:58):
still inconsistent, but like the couple years before that, he's
averaging zero point six points per jump shot in the playoffs,
which is just awful and way, way, way worse than
what we've seen from him in the regular season. His playmaking, also,
where he's going to see way more double teams in
the playoffs, has consistently been an issue every year. I'm
pretty sure before this season he had a negative assist

(01:11:20):
to turnover ratio, and yeah, he demands a huge amount
of defensive attention, but he was not able to consistently
create a high shot quality for his teammates as much
as he should considering how many double teams he's drawing,
because he didn't always make the reads turn the ball
over too much. I also think him wearing down physically
is a factor here, because even though he's been on

(01:11:40):
the floor in these recent postseasons, rarely has he been
one hundred percent. And I don't think that's a cop out.
I mean, this year was the most hurt that he's
been with the meniscus, and it was the best he's played,
So I do think that that's a bright spot overall,
even though it was still a flawed performance. But like
if you're an NB defender, there's always been something that
you could point at. Right, he broke his face, he's

(01:12:02):
sick his knee this year, and so you have to
factor that in. But I think that there is a
level of dominance that he can reach that is just
different from everybody else who I have below him on
my list. So I have him at six because of that.
If I'm just thinking you are my number one, I
need you to carry me to a title. I need
you to carry me to fifty five wins in the

(01:12:23):
regular season, and be it has a capability to do
that that the people below him can't. But I also
understand if because of health, because of playoff stuff, because
of lack of stylistic versatility, you have him off your
list because all of those things have come back to
bite him.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
To your point, there's nobody that could like actually run
rough shot over everyone else on this list, Like you know,
like if you were like, hey, Steph Curry's just gonna
like fuck everyone up next year and just like just
outplay Luca head to head and then he's gonna outplay
Yokic had to head, like you would be stunned if
you saw something like that. But like Joel Embiid has
that potential that's always in there, Like I've been saying

(01:13:01):
this forever, like he might just wrecking ball everybody at
some point. Like he has that potential in a way
that no one else on this list does. I had
him down at eleven for the simple fact that he
is a down mark in all three of my primary criteria.
Is he a reliable regular season performer in the sense
like is he gonna play seventy five plus games and
give you consistent production every single night?

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
Is he the guy that ramps his game up in
the postseason. No, it's the opposite. Is he a guy
that plays that has a lot of versatility in different
types of play style. No, he's a drop coverage big.
He can't guard in space. He has to play. I
don't even think he's a good high drop coverage big.
I think he needs to be in a deep drop
I think that's pretty much the only way you can play.
You got to park him out at the rim. And
we've seen him against the Celtics in particular, really struggle

(01:13:47):
to guard in space. And then on the opposite end
of the floor, guys like we just saw him look
like a fish out of water playing alongside other players
in ball and player movement, like literally look like he
doesn't know what to do. And so those three reasons
for me were the main reasons I put him at
the bottom of this list. But to be clear, I
don't see much gap between five and eleven. That was

(01:14:08):
just my rationale for putting him at eleven. Logan, I have,
so I have eighty at five for you, who do
you have at number six?

Speaker 4 (01:14:13):
We already talked about him in depth. I have Tatum
at six.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
You have Tatum at six, Okay, who do you have
at number seven? Logan?

Speaker 4 (01:14:22):
At seven.

Speaker 1 (01:14:22):
We also already talked about him. That is Bruce A
loted Anthony Edwards.

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
In that's where you have Aunt, Okay Carson. Who do
you have at seven? Yeah? Aunt at seven? Okay Logan,
Who do you have at number eight?

Speaker 4 (01:14:35):
At number eight, I have Stephan Curry.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
And Stephan was a hard guy to rank because we're
talking about, you know, flaws, and I think that Steph
is probably not probably, I mean he's definitively the least
impactful defender on this list.

Speaker 4 (01:14:49):
But again we're talking about situations. The Warriors have not
done Stephan Curry any favors with their situation for the
past few years, I mean, no moves. He's carrying an insane.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Burden of this offense with I mean, who do you guys,
We'll take a poll over here real quick.

Speaker 4 (01:15:06):
Who was their second best offensive player last year? Was
it still Clay?

Speaker 3 (01:15:11):
I thinks still Clay, which is not good.

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
Yeah, I'd probably say Clay, but yeah it wouldn't. It
was close between him and Kmingo, which is not good,
not at all.

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
And so I think that Steph's issues in Steph's last
stretch of this season, his last twenty games or what
everybody wants to point to. I think it gets a
little bit exacerbated because of how big the anvil is
on Steph's shoulders, trying to carry this team with you know,
limited floor spacing, with lineups with Draymond Green, with TJD,
with Kevon Looney, with your second best with Kamingo, with

(01:15:43):
your second best offensive players being Klay Thompson or Kaminga
or I mean beepods. Like, I think Steph has such
a hard job, and in this redraft, I can pick
whoever the hell I want around him. I'm just going
to give him more options offensively. I'm gonna get another
secondary superstar alongside him that can help alleviate some of
this pressure off of him. And I think at certain

(01:16:06):
positions I can pick and choose athletic, defensive minded guys.
They're gonna make up for his limitations defensively. So I
do think that Steph has lost a little bit of
a step in terms of athleticism, in terms of rim pressure, right,
I think you'd be a fool to not highlight those things.
But again, Steph can stress the defense the way nobody

(01:16:27):
in NBA.

Speaker 4 (01:16:28):
History has ever been able to.

Speaker 1 (01:16:29):
I mean, you saw it in the Olympics, Francis throwing
two dudes at him, and He's still like, yeah, give
me the ball back because I'm gonna bang this thing.

Speaker 4 (01:16:35):
He's just that kind of player.

Speaker 1 (01:16:37):
And when I'm thinking about the criteria here, Steph is
still a playoff riser. I anticipate when he gets to
that stage, He's one of the best gamers ever. He's
gonna take and elevate up a notch. He's the guy
that in a Game seven, in a Game six, when
I need to put the nail on the coffin, he
can give me forty to fifty points when I need
him to. And during the regular season, he's gonna make

(01:16:58):
me a great offense if I have the personnel around him,
and we're gonna be a good enough defense if I
put the pieces around him. And so the real issue,
the real tough decision I had to make here, was
between Steph and Lebron, And the component for me between
that matchup was who do I trust more in the
regular season to give me their all to play up
to one hundred percent if this is a one game format.

(01:17:20):
I'm gonna be honest with you, guys, I think I
might take Lebron over anybody that includes maybe not Jokic,
but bronte Down, Settle Down, cow, Lebron. Lebron's one of
the top three guys that I'm taking in a single
game format, but when we include the regular season component
of it, that's where I have a harder time ranking Lebron.
And so that's why I gave Steph the nod over him.
But I just think he's got a really tough burden

(01:17:42):
on his shoulders in Golden State, and in a hypothetical
redraft situation, I think I could be able a really,
really competitive team and a better team than the Warriors
to put around him around stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
The Steph Curry thing is is super challenging because, like,
I am such a huge believer in Steph, but my
belief hasn't matched up to the actual basketball that he's
played over the course of this calendar year. Over the
course of the final twenty three games of the regular season,
he averaged twenty two point seven points per game, four

(01:18:28):
point eight rebounds, five point two assists. He shot forty
one point nine percent from the field thirty seven point
five percent from three. That's that's not like a little
bit of a that's not superstar production anymore. And then
he was pretty bad in the Winter the Winner Go
Home game, and then he was pretty bad in the

(01:18:49):
Team USA up until the final two games. And even then,
like I was like frustrated watching the Serbia game because
like he was hitting all these shots at the start
of the Serbia game, but like at the same time
losing shooters on the other end, not doing his job
and giving up points, and like there's a certain amount
of like athletic physical decline. But then there's this like

(01:19:09):
other side of me that is such a believer in
all the intangible things that Steph does, like like just
something simple, like just him running around is an offensive
engine in a way that it isn't for other teams.
And like even with Team USA, like even when he
wasn't shooting well, he was still creating all of these
openings and these opportunities for people. And like, I think
he's one of the best leaders in the league. Logan,
I agree with you. Like I think Lebron, there's like

(01:19:32):
a certain amount of like will he try hard tonight,
whereas with Steph, like I at least think he's gonna try,
Like he just has a more consistent nightly effort kind
of regimen in the regular season. It's kind of like
part of his identity. He's one of the most well
conditioned stars in the league. But it's just tough because,
like there's been a legitimate defensive decline, Like he's gone
from being a guy who's slightly above average on defense

(01:19:53):
to probably more on the below average side. He's just
isn't as athletic as he used to be. That as
far as everyone talks about the roster, and I agree,
like he has easily the worst roster of these eleven guys.
That goes without saying, But in twenty twenty one, he
had an even worse roster than this, and he would,
like know Klay Thompson, that was the Kelly Ubra year,

(01:20:13):
that was the Camp Basemore year. Like that was a
funky ass roster and and he was torching everybody because
he still had that unbelievable superstar high end. So like,
I have this part of me, like and I truly
believe this for the record, I believe that there's a
good amount of slump going on there that he's going
to bounce back from. And I actually I actually believe

(01:20:35):
that Steph's going to have a big bounce back season.
I think the Warriors will kind of rejoin the middle
of the pack in the West, and Steph will kind
of re enter some of those conversations. But that is
wishful thinking at this point that is not based on
actual basketball that is taking place. Like that, we are
on a large sample now of Steph not looking like
Steph with exception of really small bursts, and so that

(01:20:58):
with that being the case, Like for instance, it's like
Lebron and KD both of them just simply have better
cases to be above Steph at this point. They just do.
They're both substantially better two way players whenever they need
to leverage their athletic gifts, and they both have been
playing better offense for a long time now. So my
wishful thinking isn't enough to justify like kind of taking

(01:21:22):
emotion out of it and trying to look at what's
actually taking place. So, Carson, where are you at with Steph?
Where do you have him? Right?

Speaker 3 (01:21:27):
I have Steph at ten, So I do have him
below Lebron, but I do actually have him above Katie.
And the one thing that I'll push back on with
him in relation to Katie is that I do still
think he's a better offensive engine. I understand Katie's scoring
efficiency is always going to be phenomenal. His scoring production
is always going to be phenomenal. But when you talk

(01:21:47):
about the way that Steph stresses a defense in a
way that we've never seen before, like that is still
leading the Warriors offense to produce at a level that
does not make any human sense. With him on the floor,
they were an eighty second percentile offense this year, Like,
how is that possible? With Clay chucking up the worst
shots you've seen in your lifetime? Wiggins just off again

(01:22:10):
for an entire year and often two complete, non shooting,
unskilled scoring bigs on the floor an eighty second percentile offense,
Like I do think that's where we have to give
him at least some grace, some benefit of the doubt
for the situation, and give him credit for what he
has managed to salvage for making them a good offense
in a competitive basketball team when there's just no reason

(01:22:33):
that should be the case. Still also one of the
most efficient scoring guards this year, Like you mentioned his slump, Jason,
in spite of that, he was still sixty two percent
true shooting on the season. So for all those reasons,
I still think he belongs on the list. I think
people who are talking about the falloff of Steph need
to settle down, understand the context, understand his one of

(01:22:55):
one impact. Like if you want to compare him to Brunson,
I'm sorry, man, I just don't think that's like a real,
real conversation yet. And I do think it's worth remembering.
Last time it felt like Steph had regressed was in
the twenty twenty two regular season, and then he had
maybe the best playoff front of his career, and then
he had another phenomenal regular season and a really impressive

(01:23:18):
postseason overall in twenty twenty three. So although I do
think he's clearly taking a step back, I mean, Jason,
you're talking about twenty twenty one Steph. That's not the
Steph Curry that we're seeing, right, He's very clearly not
that player. Nor is he twenty twenty two, nor do
I think he's twenty twenty three. But people who think
the sky is falling that he's not a top ten player,
I think are taking it too far. But we're talking

(01:23:41):
about a lot of elite, elite players around him who
do have different levels of two way impact who do
have just completely different levels of physical imposition, And Steph
has taken a bit of a step back defensively. He
has taken a step back athletically. I mean he never
gets to the rim any more. Seven percent of his
shots were inside of three feet this year, Like you

(01:24:01):
compare that to peak Steph even you know, five years ago,
like that number was in the low twenties. And so that,
although he is the best pull up shooter we've ever seen,
does take away an element of his scoring game, not
a major one, but a slight one in terms of
both production and efficiency. And it wasn't his best playmaking season.
So I have Steph down at ten. I do think

(01:24:23):
that when I compare him to an ad like the
two way impact just surpasses him. When I compare him
to a Lebron, I do trust Lebron to very consistently
get what he wants more because he still has such
athletic advantages and so many ways to score and create
for others. But Steph is still one hell of an
offensive engine, and he still deserves a spot here.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
Yeah, you know, it's tough because, like if we were
using my criteria from last year, which was strictly like
how good of a season did you have? He has
no case for top ten. Steph has no case for
top ten like Jalen Brunt and did have a better
season than Steph last year like that, Like that, that
is all stuff that you can get into. We are

(01:25:07):
putting him at ten as a sign of respect in
what we know he's capable of. That slump in twenty
twenty two is something that I was calling attention to
at the time, and that's one of the big reasons
why I do believe he's going to bounce back this year.
It just was weird because, like to your point, during
that twenty three game span from February twenty third on

(01:25:28):
when he was in his slump, the Warriors only had
a one to fourteen offensive rating with Steph on the floor.
So like during this, like the reality is all the
running around has a certain amount of value, but you
need Steph to hit shots. He needs to hit shots,
He needs to punish teams. There needs to be another
level of production there that he hasn't been able to
get to. But like I think part like I would

(01:25:49):
love to just see him get another chance because he
is not set up for success at this point in time,
and so I'm hopeful that Golden State gives him a
little bit more firepower so we could at least maybe
see whether or not this is something that he still
has in there. So, Carson, who did you have a
number eight? You have ad at number eight, Okay, So

(01:26:10):
my number eight was Lebron. I think Lebron is playing
if you strictly look at basketball played in this calendar
year twenty twenty four, I don't think anybody has played
better basketball than Lebron other than Luca and Jokic. I
think that his playoff series was magnificent in a way

(01:26:31):
that is like actually kind of overlooked, Like this is
what like the two games where Jamal Murray hit the
game winners, Lebron was awesome in both of those games
in clutch time, like Lebron. If you would have said, hey,
it's gonna be a crunch time game and Lebron's gonna
hit these shots, You're like, oh, Lakers are winning this game.

(01:26:51):
The problem was is Denver scored on every single possession
down the stretch, and a big part of that is
they are playing three average to be defensive players at
all times. Because of their roster construct. They have Austin Reeves,
who has no business guarding the opposing team's best perimeter
star guarding the other team's best perimeter star, right, like
Michael Porter Junior was absolutely cutting up Ruey Hatcha Murra

(01:27:16):
in screen actions because he just wasn't paying attention and
getting lost off the ball. Now really had a bunch
of other tough responsibility to spend a bunch of time
on Jokich. It was a tough series, but like those
guys were overmatched, and like, honestly I thought Lebron was
playing like true top tier superstar basketball in that first
round series, and a couple of Jamal Murray buckets in

(01:27:37):
a Denver offense that was unstoppable at the end of
the game ended up being something that they couldn't overcome.
But Lebron was playing at an insanely high level in
the postseason run. He played at an insanely high level
to end the regular season, and then in with Tim
Usa like just another wonderful example of just his overall
versatility and like everything that makes Lebron a Swiss army knife.

(01:28:01):
And so again, I don't I think he's gonna play
you know, sixty five to seventy five games this year.
I think he's gonna play hard and maybe half of them,
maybe half of them. So I think in terms of
regular season production, in terms of overall two way impact,
he's probably close to the bottom of this list of eleven.
But in any high leverage moment, I still should take

(01:28:22):
Lebron over just about anybody in the world other than
those guys at this at the very top. So I
have him at number eight, did you guys, Why don't
you guys, let's start with you. Logan, tell me where
you guys had Lebron right.

Speaker 1 (01:28:32):
Lebron in my next spot at number nine, and I
completely agree with what you just said.

Speaker 4 (01:28:35):
That's the big component to me.

Speaker 1 (01:28:37):
A playoff run, a playoff series, a big game, a
big moment. There's only one guy I'm taking over Lebron,
and that's Jokic, And that's just a testament to what
he is. The rim pressure he can still exert on
the game, the genius basketball IQ, the fact that I mean,
I think Lebron I can't remember the stat exactly, but
it was like he's the only guy to shoot forty

(01:28:58):
percent from behind the arc in like seventy percent at
the rim or something ridiculous like that, like that's forty
year old Lebron Man. That doesn't make any sense. Like
the fact that you're talking about the Denver series. The
fact that he can go to basically a post up
against everybody and it's one of the most efficient play
types in all the basketball the fact that you have

(01:29:19):
to send a second defender or he's getting that shot off.

Speaker 4 (01:29:21):
The physical tools combined with the skills.

Speaker 2 (01:29:25):
Quick quick stat for you guys logan, since you shouted
it out. Among high volume post up players players A
ran at least two hundred fifty post ups last year,
Lebron was second in the league behind your.

Speaker 1 (01:29:33):
Kichredible the physical tools combined with the with the basketball
skill that he has, combined with the IQ, there's nobody
else I would want in a big game playoff run.

Speaker 4 (01:29:46):
It's only the regular season component.

Speaker 1 (01:29:48):
Just because I know Lebron physically cannot hold up to
the physical toll that an eighty two game season would
take on him. I just know he's not gonna exert
himself physically the way I need my number one too.
So that's why he's down at number It has nothing
to do with ability whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (01:30:05):
Yeah, I completely agree with Logan. I have Lebron at
nine as well, and it is because of the regular
season effort and also regular season availability. This was Lebron's
healthiest season in a while, but he's consistently been good
to miss twenty five thirty games a year over his
seasons with the Lakers. So yeah, he's not going to
carry you through a regular season in the same way

(01:30:27):
that some of the consistently available, very high effort younger
players at the top of this list are. But he
wouldn't be number two for me in a single game format,
but I do think that he would probably be in
my five spot. I still believe very very deeply in
the consistent offensive brilliance of Lebron. He's a top three

(01:30:48):
transition scorer in basketball. He's an absolute freight train. He's
a genius playmaker, and he just had the best jump
shooting season of his career, which I think was huge
to him having such a great postseason, such a brilliant
regular season offensively, like when he's a forty percent three
point shooter, when he's that effective a spot up player,
I mean, there's just not anything approaching a hole in

(01:31:09):
his game. Offensively, he's probably the most versatile offensive player
in basketball. And when he wants to be still an
above average defender, still very good hands, still very smart,
good defensive rebounder, an above average lowman. I wouldn't call
him a good defender in totality because there's so many
instances in which the effort and the focus just isn't there.

(01:31:30):
But again, if we're talking about one game.

Speaker 2 (01:31:32):
Not in the regular season, yeah, not in the regular
he's he's Lebron is a bad defender in the regular season,
like he because the problem too is the Lakers constantly
ask him to play that low man position behind Anthony Davis,
and that's like a position you have to play hard
and like, like Lebron just be like, I'll can see
this layup on the role because I just feel like
taking this possession off. Like, but he's also one of

(01:31:54):
the best at it when you need him to be,
you know what I mean. So, like that's the how
do you qualify that?

Speaker 3 (01:31:58):
That's very much the story with Lebron. Right, we know
that he's not going to be the regular season performer
of these other guys, but we know in a high
stakes situation, like he is still among the absolute best
of the best. And the fact that that is still
possible at forty years old, that he's going to be
this season, I mean, it's just unfathomable. We've never seen
anything like it, you know, Kareem incredible longevity, Karl Malone,

(01:32:22):
incredible longevity. We've never seen somebody playing at the level
where you say, yeah, in a high stakes scenario, like
they would be one of the first five dudes or
even first ten dudes that I would take off the
board at forty years old. It's it's unthinkable.

Speaker 2 (01:32:38):
So a couple of quick Lebron stats before we move on.
So his final twenty two games of the regular season,
that's post All Star Break. So Lebron posts All Star
Break twenty eight points, eight rebounds, and ten assists, fifty
eight percent from the field, forty five percent from three,
that's sixty seven percent true shooting like that. That is
absolutely outrageous. He shot four for five in clutch situations

(01:33:01):
in the Denver series and somehow lost both games. And like,
what's crazy too, is like he was doing like he
was hitting like tough, contested mid range pull up, like
he was hitting like superstar shots too, Like he looked
like playing like at that top tier, superstar level. It
just wasn't enough with that particular team. And I think,
you know so much talk about the Lakers that that's
one of the most common takes that I get, is like, oh,

(01:33:22):
if Lebron's at eight and AD's at six, how did
they you know, how are they a playing team? And
it's like, well, they've had that three and ten stretch,
which obviously kind of nuked their regular season, but also
the Lakers were I thought the Lakers were good last year.
I mean they literally had seventeen wins against teams in
the top ten in point differential that tied the Celtics
for the most in the league. Like, I thought they
did as good a job against Denver as you can

(01:33:43):
do in a loss as you can do. Yeah, you know,
that was a couple of Jamal Murray shots away from
being a much longer and more of a coin flip
type of series.

Speaker 3 (01:33:51):
Ad were both great in that series. I mean Ad
was the best offensively that we've seen him, easily since
the bubble. Lebron was brilliant, Like it was just an
all time disaster class from the role players. And there's
issues in roster construction, as you mentioned, but I understand
how it seems counterintuitive. I also don't understand how you
can actually watch and disagree that these are two top

(01:34:15):
ten players like they just are. Watch how Lebron dominates
the game offensively and impacts of defensively when it matters.
Watch eighty as again the best defensive player on the
planet in a brilliant offensive player. The efficiency, the physical
imposition from both of them, like they do their job,
they play at an extremely high level. The team around them
just isn't what it needs to be. And also they've
played the Denver Nuggets the last two years in the

(01:34:36):
playoffs and that's a really tough draw.

Speaker 2 (01:34:41):
It's like anybody who watched that series and came away
thinking Lebron and Ad aren't good enough, I just don't
know how you could think. Like, if you watch that series,
it was so abundantly clear what was happening. It was like,
Austin's there, dude. Austin's the one guy they know they
can count on. He's like a real player. And by
the way that he's doing what he's doing offensively while
shouldering the lead point of attack defensive role, which is

(01:35:04):
something he has no business fucker're doing and he's doing it,
and like, if you watch it, it's like, oh, we
all have known d Loo is a bad playoff performer forever. Well,
guess what he bageled in the must Wing game back
in Los Angeles when they needed it right like that,
that's to be expected. That's the d Angela Russell experience.
And then one of the biggest matchup swings of that
series was Michael Porter Junior outplayed Ruy to such a

(01:35:26):
dramatic extent it was impossible to overcome. Like I actually
thought because Jamal Murray was so bad. I actually other
than the two shots I actually thought, Lebron and Ad
outplayed Yokitchen Murray. Now, I would say it was closer
to even just because those two Murray shots, Like, say
what you want about Jamal, those two shots he hit
were just unbelievable shots. But Lebron and Ad did their

(01:35:48):
part to make that series a real series, and the
other guys got their ass kick because guess what, the
other guys are better. If you told me going into
that series, who do you like? Do you like KCP
Aaron Gordon and Michael Porter Junior or Austin Reeves, D'Angelo, Russell,
Ruycha Mura. Who you take it, Nuggets. I mean, it's
not rocket it's not rockets here, it's it's not rocket science.
But anyway, let's tie this thing off. So I had Uh,

(01:36:12):
I had KD at nine. My reasoning for having Kad
over Steph is when Steph is actually playing like Steph.
I'm a big believer in Steph's overall offensive impact, and
I would have him over. It's just the theoretical element
element I was discussing. KD has been playing much better
basketball as of late, and that to me just kind
of makes him a little bit of a safer bet
heading into this particular season. As I talked about I

(01:36:33):
had Steph at ten and Joel at eleven, Carson, I'm
assuming you had who did you have at ten? Step
That's right, Steph, And then you had at eleven Kevin
Durant correct so, and then I want to come back
to Kevin rand at eleven really quick before we're done, Logan,
who did you have a ten?

Speaker 1 (01:36:53):
That has a lot to do with what Carson was saying,
basically about shouldering load of the number one EMBIID is
one of the most frustrating guys uh to watch. In
my opinion, the flopping is one part of it, but
it's also like the stagnation of the offense is more
important to me. I just think that if Embiid committed
more to doing little stuff like Jokic and again this

(01:37:16):
is a pipe dream, but like like little stuff like
dribble handoffs, like setting more screens, getting more guys involved.

Speaker 4 (01:37:24):
So much of the Philadelphia offense devolves.

Speaker 2 (01:37:26):
Into get in shape and run the floor.

Speaker 4 (01:37:29):
Yeah, that's a great idea, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:37:33):
So much of it devolves into an embid face up
touch at the elbow and embid post up touch. And
these are efficient looks, don't get me wrong, right, and
Beat's one of the best scores in basketball.

Speaker 4 (01:37:42):
But the offense grinds to a standstill. There's no flow.

Speaker 1 (01:37:45):
Other guys aren't getting involved, like there's That's one of
those frustrating things to me when I'm just playing basketball,
and obviously I'm not playing I'm playing at the you know,
my local gym. When nobody's moving. That's it's not aesthetically pleasing.
It's not good basketball. It's not good And a lot
of that happens with Embiid the regression in the playoffs,

(01:38:06):
like we've mentioned, but it ultimately does come down to injuries,
and Bid has been injured every single season of his career.
But I can't leave him with my injury concerns. With KD,
with Kawhi, with Jimmy. I think Embiid can shoulder a
number one load better than those guys, while I have
injury concerns about all of them. And so I know

(01:38:26):
Embiid would frustrate me if I drafted him, but I
would be comfortable just crossing my fingers and hoping that
he can play sixty games for me and we can win,
you know, ninety percent of those games.

Speaker 2 (01:38:40):
I think that that, like fun to play with element
is kind of under discussed. Carson, you mentioned this earlier
when we were talking about Luca and how like sometimes
it can be an ugly watch, and it's true, like
I wish, I wish it was possible for us to say, like, hey,
Luca is the second best player in the world, We're
huge fans of Luca and what he does, and blah
blah blah blah, you know, so on and so forth,

(01:39:01):
but also be like it's ugly to watch sometimes. Yeah,
like the heliocentric go stand in the corner, will set
a high ball screen and then repeat, rinse, repeat, and
every single possession involves maybe three passes at tops, sometimes
even one or two. Like that. It is not necessarily

(01:39:21):
esthetically appealing. It is not necessarily the most fun basketball
to play. No, you know what I mean. I do
think that that's worth bringing up. And I think that's
part of the story with embeat as well. So our
last bit before we get out of move on, Yeah,
go ahead, because sure, I do think.

Speaker 3 (01:39:37):
He's really really interesting when we're talking about these conversations
and we have all these factors like starting a team
from scratch, factoring and.

Speaker 2 (01:39:44):
Health, all that.

Speaker 3 (01:39:45):
The one thing I do want to say as an
Umbead critic over the years, the reason that I do
have him higher than you guys, I mean, just to
put into perspective what we saw this year where I
think we can all agree like it was still a
flawed embiad performance. He wasn't as consistent as we would want.
He wasn't good down the stretch of games. The playmaking
was better, and that is one reason that I'm encouraged

(01:40:07):
with EMBID, but still, I mean, over four turnovers a game,
some really rough stretches in that respect, and he's hurt.
We look at all of that, and still he gives
you thirty three ten and six on, fifty nine percent
for shooting, and is plus fifty eight on off. His
team was fifty eight points per hunder possessions better with
him on the floor. Like I do think there is

(01:40:28):
just a level of ability with him that is so
absurd that even when we can talk about all his
flaws and his regression and all of those things are real,
and there are people who try to pretend that they're not,
and those people are not telling the truth like he
is not. He has never been the playoff performer that
he is regular season he hasn't really been that close.

(01:40:49):
But this year was progress, and again like that production
is overwhelming. There are very very few players who could
approach that. And we still agree that he can play
much better, that there's area that he can clean up
on that. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him
to be at least marginally better in and he was
coming off a tornamentiscus. That's all I'm gonna say.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
I mean, he gave you fifty points on basically seventy
percent health in a hellish environment in the playoffs. I mean, yeah,
when he's out there, like he's one of the most
effective guys on the planet.

Speaker 2 (01:41:21):
It's just the one other thing I'll throw in there.
And there's obviously context to this. And by the way,
I agree with you guys, as I said, em Beat
is the one guy that has that like ass kicker potential,
like he could just go on a crazy run. But like, uh,
I feel like any of those top dudes like Jokich, Luca,
the guys that we want to compare and be to,
they find a way to beat the Knicks. They find
a way to be Here's what.

Speaker 3 (01:41:41):
I'm saying, they're injured. None of us haven't beat. With
those guys, I have n't beat at six, that's the
highest Logan has him ten you have him a leg Yeah,
I think we're having a different conversation, Like there are
people having the conversation of him versus Luca, Jannis, jokicch
who I think all clearly have done more in the postseason,
don't have nearly the comparable red flags like they're all
clear of him. My point is when it comes to

(01:42:02):
him versus the seven through ten tier. That's where I
would just bank on his ability that puts him in
the conversation with the top four for other people and
in the regular season.

Speaker 2 (01:42:14):
Yeah, I think that's a good case. I think all
of you guys would makee good cases. And that's the
point is, like all this stuff is so subjective. I
think five through eleven is such a toss up on
this list, And like, what I really wanted to just
hear is your guys' basketball cases for it. You've done
a really nice job. We're gonna do one last quick
round robin here and then we're gonna get out of here.

(01:42:34):
Stay about a minute each. We'll start with you, Carson.
Why do you have Katie at eleven? You both have
Katie at eleven, so give you a reason.

Speaker 3 (01:42:41):
So I touched on it a little earlier in direct
comparison to Steph. I do think that Steph is just
a more transformative offensive engine because of the playmaking, because
of the constant off ball stress and the shooting. Katie
is a really good offensive player. I do think we've
seen him just a bit over the last couple of postseasons,
impacted by the lack of pressure. I thought that twenty

(01:43:01):
twenty three was an up and down playoff run from
him this past year. I get it, the scoring efficiency
looks really good. I thought that he was really guarded
pretty effectively. I mean, he just had some incredible over
the top shot making the light you can't take away.
But I mean Gobert was switching on to him really effectively.
He wasn't creating for others and he is in a

(01:43:21):
much much better offensive situation than Steph and I don't
think his two way impact is enough to offset that,
even though I do think that he's an above average defenders,
So it's just the playmaking impact not being quite comparable.
And he's obviously still an amazing scorer. But when people
want to say he's the best score on the planet,
I can't quite agree with that because he's not the
same athlete that he was even a few years ago.

(01:43:44):
And I think we have seen that. I mean, I
think to the Nugget series, right, Aaron Gordon guarded him
really well. Of course, the Celtics series in Brooklyn was
his low point. I think he's clearly bounced back. He's
played much better since then. But like those really big
athletic wings who can stay in front of him, be
physical with him, just give him more trouble than anybody
could for prime KD.

Speaker 4 (01:44:04):
Yeah, I don't have a ton to add on that.

Speaker 1 (01:44:06):
I mean, I do think he has a two way
advantage over Steph. He's improved as a playmaker as he's
gotten older, He's still not an elite playmaker, and that
lack of rim pressure and well also athleticism really does
matter to me With KD. He's really really good, but
when I also have injury concerns when with him and
some other guys that are off my list, I just
think Embiid has the higher ceiling to propel me through

(01:44:28):
if I needed a top dog, so to speak.

Speaker 4 (01:44:30):
But again, not to.

Speaker 1 (01:44:31):
Beat a dead horse here, Helmt, I'd hear an argument
if somebody wanted to argue KD up at five. I mean,
the margins are so so slim outside of the top four.

Speaker 3 (01:44:41):
Health is also a very good point though, Logan, because
this is the only year that he's been healthy since
he tore his achilles, like with any sort of consistency.

Speaker 2 (01:44:48):
One thing I'll give him some grace there is the
injuries that he suffered have been so fluky, like there
were two separate instances where someone fell into his knee,
and then there was that bizarre one where he sprained
his ankle and warm ups, remember, like his foot slipped
or whatever. It's not like he's like having wear and

(01:45:09):
tear injuries that have been issues. Like it's been kind
of like like it's been a little bit fluky, and
then last year he avoided those like flukey injuries and
suddenly he plays seventy when he plays seventy five games
or something like that. The one thing that's been weird
with KD for me is like he's always been kind
of known as one of the best one on one
players in the league, and I still think he is.
I thought that the Stephan Lebron both deferring to him

(01:45:32):
in that big possession against Serbia just as like, and
then him just hitting that nasty left or right crossover
into the jumper. Like he still can't do much better,
but in the large sample, he did not have a
good one on one season last year. When he was
coming off of screens, he was so deadly, And a
big part of that is because such a gifted passer
can see over the top in a way that a

(01:45:53):
lot of playmakers can't, Like what that's been one of
the coolest things to see develop about Kd's game since
his achilles ruptured has been like pretty much starting in Brooklyn,
like him identifying like, Oh, all I have to do
is call for a ball screen, They're probably gonna show
high and I'm gonna get a four on three on
most of these possessions. And he's consistently been one of
the best pick and role players in the league as
a result of that kind of development in his game.

(01:46:16):
But ironically, like his post up and ISO game has
been on the decline in large part because he's just
like you said, Carson, Like he teams can put a
really big forward on him now and at least force
him to take contested jump shots. Does not get to
the rim at this point in his career at all whatsoever,
really so, But at the same time, he's really picky,
so he's very efficient when he does get there, it's

(01:46:37):
just as rare for him to go, So all that
stuff is legitimate. The reason why I had him over
Embiid is like, I still think he's a pretty damn
safe foundational piece for a franchise in the sense that,
like he's super easy to plug and play into any
offensive system. He can use him in a bunch of
different ways defensively, Like he's an excellent switch defender, he's

(01:46:59):
an excellent lowman, he's an excellent defensive rebounder. Like he's
got all of these different traits that he brings to
the table there. So like, if I'm building a basketball
team from scratch, I still can't do a whole lot
better than Kevin Durant. But I but I had him
at I had him at ten, or excuse me at nine,
with Steph at ten, and then Embiid at number eleven.

(01:47:20):
But I appreciate you guys taking the time to come
humor me with this, with this format. I know, it's
like it's so funny, these player rankings lists. There's no
way to do them without causing loopholes and everything is
kind of unrealistic. Like I talk about this all the
time on the show, like, oh, in a vacuum, Like
game starts tomorrow, that's great. That's never how you win

(01:47:40):
the trophy though, Like that's not like you don't get
to you don't get to play one game tomorrow win
the trophy. Okay, playoff series that starts tomorrow, Well that's
not how you do it either. Playoff run that starts tomorrow, Well,
that's not how you do it either. Like you the
way you get the Larry O. B starts in October
and it and it's a grind and and you've got
to be playing the best basketball at the right time.
You've got to there's a leadership element keeping your team

(01:48:01):
engaged throughout the regular season. And like, there's so many
different elements to it, and it's complicated, and I tried
to kind of set that up as the criteria this year,
and you guys brought a lot of solid points and
arguments really quickly. Before we get out of here, why
don't you guys tell us what you're working on over
at nerd Set.

Speaker 3 (01:48:16):
Well, first of all, thank you for having us. This
was a ton of fun and it's excellent to scratch
the basketball. It's because we have been a little NFL
focused as of late, because we cover that as well.
So if you guys want to see all of our
NBA stuff, all of our NFL stuff, We do a
bunch of trivia as well. We did trivia with Jason
just the other week and Yovan Buja we did some
Lakers trivia, so that's all on our YouTube channel. Just

(01:48:39):
look up nerd Session. We've got all that, and we've
also got some historical NBA content, some video essays that
we put out with film as well on YouTube.

Speaker 2 (01:48:50):
Yeah, they've been doing amazing work on the film side
of things too, and I think there's a I think
there's a a kind of an area of opportunity for
that on YouTube, truly educational video content, and you guys
do a really nice job with that. Make sure you
guys head over to nerd Sash check it out. Schedule
for the rest of this week really quickly. On Wednesday,
we'll be going doing the Bragging Rights list. So I'm

(01:49:11):
just gonna hit like the top like four or five
guys in the league truly based on what they accomplished
last year. Kind of just an opportunity to pay some
respects to those guys for what they accomplished. Then we
have something on a Friday, I believe surrounding the GM survey.
And then starting next week we are getting into season previews.
We're gonna start breaking down teams little by little. We'll

(01:49:32):
do that power ranking style like we did last year.
As always, we appreciate you guys for supporting the show.
Thanks for coming to hang out, don't forget to support
the Nerd Sash guys, and we'll see you guys on
Wednesday the volume What's Up guys. As always, I appreciate
you for listening to and supporting OOPS tonight. It would
actually be really helpful for us if you guys would

(01:49:52):
take a second and leave a rating and a review.
As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if
you could take a minute to do that, I'd really
appreciate it.

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Hoops Tonight x Nerd Sesh - Top 10 in NBA: LeBron ageless, Curry & Warriors back? Luka vs. Giannis

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Colin Cowherd

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