Nerd Sesh - Top 10 Point Guards - The Herd with Colin Cowherd

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
No, oh my god, how could he do that? Go on, watch.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
What Charles Darwin. The nerves is where it's at.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome everybody back into nerve sessh. As always, I'm Carson
Forever in alongside the is Logan Camden, and today we
are going to be ranking the top ten point guards
in the NBA. This was an agonizing task, Logan. It
feels like we always say that when we do lists,
these are supposed to be fun, they end up being
absolute torture. But I swear this one was extra hard, man,

(00:46):
and part of that is the dudes you have to
leave off the list entirely. So before we get into
the list, who was your toughest cut.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
My toughest o mission off this list? Carson by far
was Kaid Cunningham, And Caid's a really tough wow. He's
a really tough player to gauge a lot because of
his situation in Detroit. He's in one of the worst
situations in all of basketball. Detroit has been a bottom
five defense every year of Kate's career. In Kate's two
healthy seasons, the Pistons have shot twenty sixth and twenty ninth.

(01:17):
That's where they've ranked in three point percentage, and next
year is going to be Kate's third coach in three
healthy seasons. Like, it's just really hard to gauge kid's
winning impact and impact on winning basketball games because of
his situation. And one interesting stat I founded doing research
for this Podcason Kate has the twenty second worst winning

(01:37):
percentage in NBA history post merger. He is thirty two
in one hundred and six in his career, a winning
percentage of twenty three zero point two percent. And that's
what I want to emphasize is it's just it's tough.
It's tough to separate his impact from you know, his
impact individually and team success. And I want to be

(01:58):
clear about something too. I put is an honorable mention
on this list because I think there are guys that
impact winning more. I am ranking my top ten point
guards right now, yes, but I'm also ranking them in
terms of a context of where I think they're going
to end up at the end of next season. Where
these guys are going to be, And I think Caid
is going to continue to ascend. I think he's going

(02:19):
to continue to get any better. I think he's going
to continue to get better, excuse me, and I really
trust his jump shot long term. Uh, he shot forty
eight percent out of the mid range last season. He
really struggles to finish the rim. Another interesting stat that
helped me take Kate off of my list. Kate shot
just fifty five point six percent in the restricted area

(02:40):
of two hundred and thirty six qualified players. Kate rate
two hundred and twenty second in terms of efficiency in
the restricted area. That's minimum two field goal attempts in
the restricted area per game. That made him a little
easier to take off the list. That's his major flaw
as a player right now. But he's a jumbo sized playmaker.
I try his decision making. I trust his jump shot.

(03:03):
I think Caid's going to continue to get better and better,
and I think next year is going to be a
breakout season for Caid And so that's why it may
be hard to leave him off this list. But I'm
I'm confident in my in my top ten.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
It made you what to leave him off this list?

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Confident? What did I say?

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Not what you said? Cad Cunningham, friend of the Show.
I saw him in the line on the way to
Jungle Cruise at Disneyland good guy. I've always been a
CAD guy. I'm wondering if we have a different definition
of point guard though, just because I feel like, no
matter how high you are on CAD, there are eleven
dudes who are pretty clearly above him, the position is
just so stacked. So I'm trying not to really do

(03:42):
projecting here. For me, it's not about where I think
you'll end next year. It is basically about where you
are right now, and there's some little projection involved in that. Right, Okay,
might you figure out a fit a little bit better,
Might some shot variants go a little bit more your
way than it did this past year. But I'm not
necessarily banking on like substantial improved Like maybe we'll see
from Kate, but we haven't seen up to this point.

(04:03):
I do think he is a really, really talented young player.
I do think he is somebody who has often gotten
disproportionate blame in Detroit. Very good playmaker. But it's just
a question of creating easy, seamless offense. And I think,
regardless of situation, basically everybody else hasn't beat there because
they're either a more consistently elite pull up shooter they're

(04:24):
a more elite playmaker. They're a better athlete who creates
a higher shot quality around the rim. Like Kate's situation
makes his life a lot harder. He also doesn't create
a lot of layups in super easy shots for himself
at this stage. So my toughest cut logan and I
have no idea how you're going to react to this,
because again I'm wondering if we have a different definition
of point guard. Is Jamal Murray one of the loves

(04:47):
of my life, the man who I own a shirt
in his honor, But I just think when you're comparing
him to everybody else on this list, all of them
are more capable of shouldering the load of a number,
and Jamal really really struggled in this past playoff run,
and it comes down to with him a question of
shot quality. The shot making is sensational, and I do

(05:08):
think the shot making is something you can usually bank on,
and he did just have a really rough postseason, But
there is the reality that he's not going to create
a lot of high quality shots for himself at the rim.
He's going to trail behind basically everybody on the list
in that respect, and he's playing in the most favorable
offensive situation that you could dream of alongside Nikole Jokic.

(05:29):
There is nowhere that you are going to be better
set up to thrive in a two man game, nowhere
where your shot quality should be higher. And he's still
really really struggled. I understand the calf, but I just
think there are guys with more dynamic athletic advantages that
put them at least a tick over Jamal. I thought
after last year there was a strong case that he
was a top twenty player. Certainly played like it in

(05:49):
that playoff run. But I do think we've seen now
some of the volatility that comes with his extreme reliance
on tough shot making. It's the volatility that has been
a reality for him in the regular season. This is
a guy who's always prone to having some clunkers throughout
the regular season, and he was just able to play
out of his mind in that title run. And he

(06:09):
played incredibly well in the bubble as well. But I
think that this pass run opened my eyes to some
of the volatility that is sort of inherent with his
play style and some of his limitations. So he is
my number eleven, who's your number ten?

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Logan in My number ten spot is memphisis Ja Morant,
and unfortunately last season we only got to see jaw
play nine games, and this has actually been more of
a polarizing take than I expected. I ran this list
by some of my friends, and a lot of them
thought I was way too low on Jaw. Jah has

(06:45):
one really special quality, and that is the fact that
he is so freaking athletic and did get to the
rim basically at will Man. He is a freak athletic talent,
and in terms of finishing at the rim, you know
the bevy of ways he can and do it, going
through guys, finishing with physicality, finishing with finesse, finishing with touch, layups, dunks.

(07:06):
He's a special interior finisher and he generates those shots
at a really high rate. The reason he's not higher
for me on my list is because I think there
are guys that generate easier half court offense, and I'm
always going to be a little bit concerned about jaw
just in terms of his jump shot. This is a
smaller sample size from this year. He shot just twenty

(07:29):
four percent on jumpers in those nine games that he played.
Last season, he shot thirty three percent. He shot twenty
seven percent out of the mid range. Last year he
shot forty two percent, So I'm encouraged that can be
a little bit higher.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
And we haven't been the nine games sample size. We
shouldn't be in the nine game sample size for anything.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, last season, in the last full season he played,
he shot forty two percent, and John's improved there. I
want to give him props for that. That's an area
where Jaw has grown in the intermediate mid range. In
the short mid range, Joh's really grown there. But I
think there's just a higher ceiling with other guys because
they're just better pull up jump shooters. Jah's a really

(08:06):
special talent, but I think they are just better half
court engines, and I really value that. That's the only distinction,
And it's kind of about where do you come down
with that balance, right, because guys can't generate easy looks
at the rim like Job, they can't create rim pressure.
A lot of guys higher than him on this list
just can't. They're either past their prime, they just don't

(08:29):
have the physical traits to exert pressure on the rim
like he does. But they're better jump shooters. And typically
I lean on the side of I would rather have
the guy who is a better touch shot maker, who
is a better pull up jump shooter, who is better
at shooting from behind the arc. Now I think Joh
can improve there. I'm waiting for him to connect because

(08:50):
if he figures that out, man, you're looking at a
guy who is in a complete half court offensive engine.
You were looking at a complete offensive player if he
figures out the jump shot side of his game. But
that is ill the significant flaw on Jaws game and
why he can't be higher on this list for me.
I love him. He is one of the most fun
players to watch in basketball. Or if we just are
ranking off of guys who are enjoyable to watch, John

(09:12):
might be top five for me. I mean, he is
super fun. But when we are looking at total value,
I'm gonna hold the jump shot against him. And I
am a little bit worried about the post injury concerns,
just with the shoulder tear and how that's going to
affect him in coming back. But it really is just
about the half court offense and the jump shot, and
that's why Jack can't be higher on this list for me.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
So I have John one spot higher than you at
number nine, and this to me is the low end
for him. I'm interested to see who you have right
above him. Seven through nine are so so close for me,
and that really is the agony of this list, Like
the margins are so slim. Jaw obviously has some incredibly
special traits on the basketball court. He's a monster in transition.

(09:58):
He is one of the absolute best ballhandlers in the league.
Has that thing on a string with the in and
outs and the crosses. He can do whatever he wants
with the ball in his hands. And you pair that
with some of the most lethal quickness that we've seen
in a long time in this league and some of
the most incredible aerial athleticism and acrobatics in terms of
his finishing around the rim, in terms of his ability

(10:20):
to deliver these mid air kickout passes and lay down passes.
He's just outstanding to watch around the rim. And he
was third among all guards in restricted area makes the
last year that he did play a full season. He
also is quite good in terms of his touch from
float to range. He's about forty three forty four percent there,
which isn't super efficient offense in a vacuum, but it's

(10:41):
valuable to be able to knock down those shots out
that clip. It's really essential out of pick and roll.
He also eats up free throws with the level that
he pressures the rim at He has a free throw
rate of abouto point four, which is really high. And
he is an awesome passer, like he is maybe a
step down from the Tier one guys, but he has
that blend of pressuring the rim at a ridiculous level

(11:03):
and being able to make all of those reactive in
acrobatic dishes. But also he really has improved in terms
of his court mapping, his anticipation, his ability to spot cutters,
live dribble passes to those guys lob passes. He is
quite a good on ball offensive engine, and that rim
pressure that he creates will always have value. You are

(11:26):
always stressing a defense when you can get to the
rim at the rate that he can, and he is
fearless about it. And I had a really difficult debate
in my mind between him and one other player who
is in a pretty similar archetype. And one advantage that
John does have over anonymous guy who will get to
in a minute is just how relentlessly he does weaponize

(11:48):
that athleticism. There is nobody who is more willing to
just drive over and over and over again, and that
does put a burden on that defense, and that does
stress a defense. Some of the limitations for Jaw, though
he's the least efficient player who we're going to talk
about today. Last season in which he played in full
had a true shooting percentage of under fifty six, which
is a couple points below league average. Thirty seven players

(12:12):
attempted as many pull up jumpers as Jaw did that year,
and he was thirty sixth in effective field goal percentage,
just above Aunt Edwards. So he is a ratic there
and generally is just a well below average, high volume
pull up shooter, and he's not somebody who's going to
really bring you value away from the ball. When we
talk about the most ball dominant players in the league,

(12:33):
sometimes people up Jaw because there can be this connotation
that ball dominance as a negative. And I think people
just love Jaw's game because he is so fun to
watch because he is so electrifying. But he's as ball
dominant as a Trey Young, right, They're like equivalent in
time of possession, And I think if you're just evaluating
them as on ball offensive engines. Trey is better. He
creates a higher shot quality with his overwhelming pull up shooting,

(12:56):
with the fact that he is just a bit better,
a bit more genius as a playmaker, and Job brings
you a little bit of off ball value with his cutting.
But overall, I would say that has a sort of
minimal impact. He's not doing that at a high volume,
and he's not comfortable or efficient shooting off the catch.
And you mentioned that he hasn't really capped in a

(13:16):
high end half court offense these last couple years. The
Grizzlies offense is only improved by about two points per
one hundred possessions when he's on the floor compared to
when he's off it, and he has let out a
seventeenth percentile half court offense and a twenty third percentile
half court offense. That's over the last two full seasons.
I do think you have to acknowledge the limitations in

(13:37):
personnel around him there, the limitations in terms of spot
up shooting, and the limitations in terms of creation off
the dribble. Like I don't think that that is close
to the ceiling that you do have with Job, But
is he elite enough, Is he genius enough as an
extremely ball dominant player to be inching towards the top
five of this list. I personally don't think so. I

(13:57):
think that's his limitations scoring outside of the paint. His
inefficiency do limit him in those conversations. But the playmaking
really is fantastic, and it does make him difficult to
have down here because it's an edge that he has
over a couple of guys above him. But you do
have those stretches where he is forcing a few too

(14:18):
many pull up threes, which aren't really good shots for him,
or it's just he's getting to the rim, but he's
forcing these really difficult finishes against high level rimp protectors.
I'm also not sure if there's a player who's less
conducive to being a number two than Job because of
the ball dominance. But with the other ball dominant guys,
you're gonna get like significantly more three point shooting value, right, which,

(14:38):
even if you're not a super willing spot up shooter,
just for spacing, that at least makes you a bit
more valuable. Jaw is limited in that respect, so he's
always gonna be a polarizing guy and I think because
his play style is so fun to watch, because he's
such a crazy athlete, and because the Grizzlies have been
quite good, you're gonna get a job boost from some parties.
You're gonna get people who say, oh, he belongs and

(15:00):
MVP conversations when his individual impact to me has never
been at that level of value. I also think there
might be some people who have gone too far as
job attractors. Now, there were people who were pushing the
narrative that they really didn't need Joie out there because
of their record without him over the previous couple of years.
I think there are people who will take his off
the court stuff into account too much and will imply

(15:22):
that that has a bearing on who he is just
as a basketball player, which I don't think it does.
Jodde's really really good. The position is just stacked. I
think there are dudes who are more great, polished, efficient
engines in the half court, and that's why I have
him at nine.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah, and I think it's important to contextualize why the
Grizzlies have been good too, because I think it's the
quarterback attribution thing that we always talk about on this show.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Man.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
It's the star leader, the best player on the team,
gets all the credit for his team's success. Right, So
the Grizzlies are great because they're a great defense. That
has been their identity. They've also had what you can't
take for grant is the fact that they've had a
great bench. Right they a couple of years ago. Right,
you had like guys like the Anthony Melton, Kyle Anderson,

(16:07):
Tias Jones. I mean, you're loaded. That is a freaking
loaded bench to have, and that's why the Grizzlies have
been great. Now, I'm not taking anything away from job,
but that's what you have to separate to me is
Jaw is responsible for the offense, and the half four
offense hasn't been that great, and there are other things
that he does. But there are guys who are just

(16:30):
better engines to me, and I'm so glad that you
hit on the spacing and the ability to be a
number two, that malleability. It really does matter to me.
One in terms of floor spacing and what value you
do bring off ball, but just in terms of how
seamless can you work within the flow of an offense.
I don't think Joe is one of those guys. And
I think that can be a similar criticism of Trey

(16:50):
Young because he's so ball dominant, right. I don't know
if Trey works is a number two because he needs
the rock in his hands, and Trey would at least
bring value as a shooter, where Job I really don't
think works man like without the ball. It's really similar
to Russell Westbrook in a lot of ways. To me,
I think Jos's smarter in terms of his decision making, right.

(17:12):
I don't think he has a ratic as Westbrook was.
But that is a knock and I think people may
be shocked at one of the guys that I have
above him, But that malleyability really is valuable to me
in terms of can you play off ball? Can you
play on ball? And I think that guys with that
archetype who can space the floor like that or just

(17:33):
maybe a little bit more value in terms of ease
of winning offense.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
You make a great point. Historically, the strength of this
Memphis team has been its defense. They've only been a
top twelve offense once. With Job, they've been the number
fifteen offense twice. That's the second best offense that they've posted.
He's not going to compare to some of these guys
in a half court I don't want to sell short
how great he is in transition, how genuinely great he is.
And that's been another key part of Memphis is identity,

(18:00):
and that identity is changing. We'll see exactly what it
looks like this year, but in the past couple of
years in which they have been a really good basketball team,
it was defense, depth, and pace, and he doesn't have
He hasn't had a good supporting cast alongside him offensively
really ever, so it is worth noting. I do think
there are more seamless creators overall, though not my guy

(18:20):
at number ten though who even though I love him,
I just would have to see him more proven as
a number one to put him above some of these
other guys. I have Tyres Maxi in my ten spot Logan,
who I absolutely love. For those who don't know this
guy right here, I will flex this every time I
bring this man up if I can. Twenty twenty, I
said he's the most skilled scoring prospect in the draft.

(18:42):
He went twenty first overall win for me, had a
really strong breakout season. I guess you would say he
was already a really good basketball player, but took that
leap to undeniable stardom. Gave you twenty six, four and
six on fifty seven percent true shooting, and when he
is on, has one of the most lead eth blends
of quickness and pull up shooting in basketball. He's a

(19:04):
really effective pick and roll operator, a seventy six percentile
creator there, expert screen rejector, just so good at using
that shiftiness to get a step on you. Really nice
change in pace, forty five percent on floaters, quite good
touch from that intermediate range. And one of his biggest
advantages is that he is quite a versatile offensive guard.

(19:25):
We saw him play alongside a lead ball handler like
James Harden, and he wasn't quite the player that he
is today, but he was super effective in that role.
He's an elite spot up player eighty fifth percentile, ridiculously
good off the catch from deep, He's awesome in transition.
He's going to be super effective with his full court
speed there. So there is the dynamic of Okay, he

(19:46):
could be your number one from the perimeter. He could
be your number two very effectively. And he just had
an awesome playoff run like awesome, awesome thirty five and
seven on sixty percent throuugh shooting. Some of his limitations.
I mention that when he's on he has one of
the most lethal blends of quickness and pull up shooting.
He had an inefficient pull up shooting season, though. He

(20:06):
was forty four percent in terms of effective field goal
percentage on pull up jumpers, which was tied with Ant
for the worst out of the top thirty guys in
attempts in basketball. Also, when it comes to shouldering the
load of a number one, you can have questions about
jaw as a number two, but we've seen that he
can carry you to respectable heights and even good heights

(20:27):
at times without Joel Embiide on the floor Tyres Max.
He really struggled to produce efficiently this year fifty four
percent through shooting. You felt the lack of really high
end playmaking when he had to carry that sort of burden,
and again when the pull up shooting is inconsistent. Like
you just see some of the limitations there. Because he
is a pretty average playmaker. He's not gonna wow you

(20:49):
with high end reads. Definitely one of the weakest playmakers
on this list. He was just thirty five percent from
mid range this year as well, which held back some
of that pull up shooting efficiency. So I love the
guy when you think about like those avenues to automatic
offense that you need to have if you're going to
carry a heavy, heavy load without a top five sort
of player alongside you who consumes massive amounts of defensive

(21:11):
attention that make your life easier. Same thing with Jamal Murray, right,
If you're a benefit, the beneficiary of those circumstances, that's
the reality. Other guys are working in harder situations to
have to produce at the same level or even more.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
So.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
We can talk about questions for jaw as a number two,
but it's pretty undeniable to me that Maxi is a
beneficiary of playing alongside a top five player in basketball
who consumes overwhelming amounts of defensive attention. It's the same
thing I was saying with Jamal Murray playing alongside nikol
A Jolkic, like that is a clear advantage that those
guys have. There are other dudes who have proven that

(21:46):
in inferior circumstances they can produce at a really high level,
and Maxi is not quite one of those guys in
my opinion at this point. And the lack of high
end playmaking does hold him back in that respet or
super efficient scoring. Like he's a really really good number two.
If the pull up jumper is as consistent as I

(22:07):
think it can be next year, then I think that
he can climb up on this list. But considering that
it wasn't quite as consistent as I would have hoped
this past year, and there are many more proven number
ones above him, and he is playing in a really
favorable situation, I'm gonna have him here in my ten spot.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Maxi is the exact guy that I was alluding to
when I was talking about Jaw and a guy that
I hire on my list. I feel like you're gonna
push back on this. I have Maxi a few spots
higher at number seven.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Ooh.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
The reason is is I just really prefer his style
of play, and I'll get into it. I have Trey
Young below Maxi two, and I believe in Maxi is
a number one. The reason I prefer Maxi is because
of that malleyability I was talking to. There's a certain
level of unselfishness this comes with Maxie, where I really
trust him to play at a high level off ball.

(22:57):
I also trust him to create on ball. There's a
level of efficiency that comes with Maxi right where Trey
Youung will frustrate me sometimes with his turnovers and trying
to do too much. I never really get that feel
with Maxi, even when Embiid was out right. You reference
that stretch wors stretch of his season by far twenty
six four and six on fifty four percent for shooting,

(23:18):
still just two turnovers per game. This entire year overall,
he averaged just one point seven turnovers per game. Like
he is a stupid, stupid efficient player. And I was
really impressed with what he did in the playoffs, And
I think you're exactly right too. I think he benefits
from playing with Joel Embiid for sure, but I was
super impressed with what he did in these playoffs. Man

(23:39):
thirty points, seven assists, sixty percent for shooting. He had
one forty piece, he had three thirty pieces. It's at
malleability that I prefer. And while you may have questions
about Maxie is like your number one, de facto guy,
I just trust him to fill more versatile roles and
there is an advantage that he has over guys like
Trey and Damian Lillard, who is below him as well.

(24:01):
I'll go ahead and spoil that. It's his quickness, like
Tyres is so stupid fast man. He shot sixty four
percent in the restricted area. He can get to those looks,
and the difference is the pull up jump shooting. I'm
glad you mentioned it, Carson. I think it's gonna balance
itself out. I think it's he's gonna bounce back next season.
And again I mentioned that these are more of a
projection to me too. I think Max he's gonna continue

(24:24):
to get even better. Man. He has ascended every single
year of his career. I think he is going to
get even better. And again, man, it's the efficiency. You
may have your questions about him as like your number
one guy. Again, I just trust him to play on ball,
I trust him to play off ball. I think he
makes great decisions. He's stupid efficient. Yeah, Man, I think

(24:44):
Max he's a freaking stud. And it's a little bit
counterintuitive to some of these other guys who are like
number ones and improving themselves in these situations. But I
just think Max he's a winner, man. I think Max
he's a really winning basketball player, and so I have
him a few spots higher at number seven.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
It's tough, man. There's the classic dilemma of would you
rather have a guy who is more conducive as a
number two?

Speaker 1 (25:11):
And maybe the classic floor versus ceiling.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Debate, man, But it's also like not just floor versus ceiling,
because you're talking about a guy who is gonna be
in an easier role, but would you rather have a
guy who is better suited for that easier role or
a guy who, yeah, can carry you and can bring
you to a higher floor as a number one? But
how high is that floor really? How good of a
number one is that guy? I love MAXI dude, I'm

(25:38):
not gonna lie. I'm gonna lose sleep over this entire list.
I don't know. I wish that they were a super
easy way to evaluate it, because if I had a
player like Joel Embiid, yeah, I would rather take Tyrese
Maxy than a couple of these other guys. I would
rather take him than a Jah Morant. But in a vacuum,
I do think the jaw is capable of doing more

(25:59):
to care inferior talents, and I think that the gap
there is big enough. We're all give job the edge,
But it's not an easy choice. Okay, So who is
in your number nine spot?

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Logan At number nine, I have Damian Lillard and I struggled.
I struggled. Man seven through eleven were super tough on
this list. Dame has definitely lost a step from where
he was, and I am hopeful, I am very hopeful
that a year removed from a really rough time in

(26:32):
Damian Lillard's life, we could see improvement. Right this was
a really troublesome year for Damian Lillard, and I'm gonna
cut him slack, going through a divorce, moving from a
place where he has spent his entire career in Portland,
in going to Milwaukee. It was just really tough. And
I think a lot of the stuff he said in
quotes and press conferences and stuff, I just don't think

(26:55):
Damian Lillard was in the best mental state right throughout
this entire year, and so I am hopeful that year
removed from that, we can see a rejuvenated Dame, just
a Damian Lillard in a better mental state. The one
area where I know that Damian Lillard is not going
to bounce back, though, is athletically. I think we have
definitely seen Dame lose a step in terms of quickness,

(27:16):
in terms of athleticism, and I think it's reflected in
his efficiency. He just shot forty two percent from the field.
He had a true shooting percentage of fifty seven percent.
The one value that you're always going to have with
Damian Lillard is his shooting. This is one of the
greatest shooters in NBA history. If I had to rank him,
I think he is top three all time. I think
it's Steph, I think it's Clay, and then I think

(27:38):
it's Damian Lillard. That kind of pull up jump shooting
and shooting period. It's gonna make Dame's game age gracefully.
But there is enough of an athletic gap to me
between him and like a Maxie, and it made me
debate him and Jaw again. I still think Dame's edge
shooting wise, gives him the edge over a guy like
John Wrant, but it's close. I would hear an argument.

(28:00):
I have to see an extended period of Dame without Giannis,
and he was still really good thirty points eight assist
on sixty three percent for shooting. He was great in
these playoffs thirty one points five assists on sixty four
percent for shooting, and I respect how great he can
be at his apex. I mean, we saw him take
over playoff games still at this age. Like I said

(28:21):
though earlier, I am basing this also on the way
his career is trending relative to these younger point guards,
and I just think it's clear that Dame is on
the downward trajectory and these other guys are continuing to ascend,
and this position is just loaded.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
Man.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
Dame versus Job was by far my toughest dilemma on
this list, and I'm still wondering if I should have
Job of him. I really value Dame's pure shooting, his touch,
his in what he can provide as a number one
and as a number two. Again, I talk about that
malleability with MAXI it's the same with Dame. I can

(29:01):
trust name to play off ball, I can trust him
to play on ball, and I trust him to still
lead my offense out. He's not going to generate as
easy looks as some of these other guys, again because
of that athletic gap. But I just really value his
shooting and his veteran presence and his poise and his experience.
But the athletic gap is why he can't be higher.

(29:23):
If you had asked me this a year ago, man,
I might have had Dame top five, Like Dame was
coming up out of a Yeah, come on, I mean,
just what a position still loaded.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
I don't think you could argued he wasn't top four
day one. I mean he really a top fifteen player.
Last year he everged thirty two and seven on sixty
five percent true shooting and the partly Trailblazers were like
a ninety something percentile offense with him on the floor.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Only seven players in NBA history had done that. Like,
I mean, it was ridiculous. Like if you had asked
me this a year ago, Dame would be much higher
on this list. But I think it's clear that he
is trending in a different direction to these younger guards.
But he still brings a ton a ton of value,
and again in comparison to Jaw, I just I like
the malleability in the floor spacing that Dame brings me

(30:09):
to be a number one or a number two, and
he's still one of the greatest shooters in NBA history.
That's why, Like, even if he continues to decline athletically,
I think Dame's game is gonna age really, really gracefully.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
So first of all, I'm just an agony over this list.
I'm sitting back here and I'm reflecting on life. Dude,
I'm already just a couple names into this list, Like damn,
these are close. We have a lot of tough choices
to make, and I particularly agonized between the seven and
nine range. I had Dame at nine for a time.
I end up with him at number seven, and he

(30:43):
is a tough guy to rank because you mentioned things
are not trending the right direction for him career wise,
age wise, this having been a season in which he
did clearly regress. The question is how much of that
regression is permanent, how much of it can be healed
by improved personnel around him, maybe by an improved fit

(31:05):
with Giannis coming around, by him just having a better
shooting season than he did this past year. I'm cautiously
a bit optimistic about that, because there's undeniably areas in
which Dame regress. Dame is not the player that he
was in twenty twenty three, not that close. He did
not look as quick, which made his offensive game more predictable,

(31:26):
which I do think dinged his efficiency from beyond the
arc career, low percentage of his shots came at the rim,
just nineteen percent inside of three feet, true shooting percentage
dropped off by over five percent. He had twenty one
games in which he shot thirty five percent or worse
from the field. There was a real volatility to his
game this year, and his defense was really poor. Was

(31:48):
a weak point even on a list in which there's
not a lot of particularly strong defenders. The reasons for
optimism though, number one, as you mentioned, he's just one
of the greatest shooters that this game has ever I
don't know if I would put him top three from
beyond the arc period point blank. I think there have
been more accurate shooters, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, you could

(32:09):
even say Kyle Korver right, There's been a number of
spot up guys who are just more consistently gonna shoot
a really high percentage than Dame. But there's no question
that he's one of the two greatest distant shooters that
this game has ever seen, and that is still extremely valuable.
And that is where I am just praying that the
Milwaukee Bucks can do something to remedy their center spot

(32:33):
and just in the interest of transparency. Transparency, we're recording
this day before free agency, so maybe they went out
there and did something. I don't know, but if he
had a vertical spacing big like you just cannot overstate
the runway that he creates with these high pick and rolls.
Brook Lopez, who can only pop, is not the dude
to take advantage of that. Jannis could be. That game

(32:54):
could be really dynamic, and I am hopeful that an
offseason of those two working together could help develop what
should be one of the most unstoppable two man games
we've seen in the history of this league. He also
still eats up free throws, which helps his efficiency, and
even in this down year, he was a ninety first
percentile pick and roll creator. That ability to stretch defenses

(33:16):
out that absurd shot making the runway that he can
create for himself when he can pull you that far out.
As we saw in the playoffs, he's not as quick
as he used to be, but he can still get
himself some easier drives just by pulling you out thirty
plus feet to guard the action made him super efficient,
and he's still an eighty seven percentile spot up player.
That pure shooting does give him off ball value that

(33:37):
you're not gonna find in many other places on this list.
And in the playoffs just four games, but he bawled
out thirty one to nine on sixty four percent true shooting.
It was insane shot making. So I think in terms
of fit, things can only get better. The two man game,
all of his pick and roll stuff can only get
more dynamic in Milwaukee, and I do think that he's

(33:57):
definitely regressed. But if there is some cause for optimism,
it's that one year ago he was unequivocally a top
fifteen guy. And you think about twenty twenty two, when
he only played about thirty games, so it's different. You
don't have a full season sample. But he was really
struggling that year. He was really struggling as a shooter.
Then he came back had a career best season. So
I'm hopeful that he will be better this year. I

(34:20):
don't think it's unreasonable to expect that. And that shooting
ability is just so special it makes him such a
potent number two. We know what he's been able to
do as a number one just a year ago. Could
he do that now? Not in the same way? But
the ability to carry an offense out of pick and
roll and to also compliment another star player so effectively
with his shooting ability does make Dame a little bit

(34:43):
more appetizing to me than some of these guys who
aren't going to be the most efficient, who aren't going
to be the most consistent shooters, who maybe aren't really
good offensive number ones. Anyways, that's why I have him
at number seven. But boy, is it close?

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Man, dude, I'm cut up. I'm cut up about this. Man.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, man, this list is fucked. Bro, why did we
do this to ourselves? And spoiler alert, guys, we're not
close to done. We've got to do four more positions.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
Damn man, you've got me rethinking my number eight spot. Okay,
at number eight, I have Trey Young And the only
reason I'm debating like Trey and Dame is the the again,
the number one slash number two dynamic Like Dame is
so complimentary when I think Trey has to be your
number one. But Trey in a lot of ways cards
and I feel like has quickly become one of the

(35:34):
most underrated point guards in the NBA. We talked about
polarizing guys like again, there are some people that think
Trey is one of the best point guards on planet Earth,
and then there are some guys who think he's chopped liver.
I've heard rumors murmurs out of a like NBA circles
that you know, some people thought de Chantey Murray it
was more valuable now New Orleans Pelicans de Chantey Murray.

(35:57):
I still really value Trey Young. He is out three
top ten offenses. He has let out a number two offense,
like he's one of the best individual like offensive engines
in basketball man the shot quality that he generates for
his teammates, the shooting from behind the arc. He's not
the most efficient guy, but he's a special, special floor spacer.

(36:17):
Twenty six points, eleven assists on fifty nine percent true shooting.
He does come with his his issues. He's not a
great defender. I think he really struggles to create high
quality easy looks for himself, like just easy easy shots.
There is a lack of downhill pressure Carson. He was
one hundred and forty fourth in restricted area field goal

(36:39):
attempts per game. For a guy that has the ball
in his hands this much, that is an alarmingly low
number and He's also one of the worst high volume
at room finishers in the league. I mentioned that stat
about CAD where he ranked two hundred and twenty second
out of two hundred and thirty six players. Just two
spots above him is Trey Young. He ranks two hundred
and twentieth out of two hundred thirty six PLA in

(37:00):
terms of at rim efficiency minimum two attempts per game.
So he does come with his flaws, and that is
ultimately why Trey can't be, like, you know, one of
the top five guys to me, the at rim finishing,
the downhill pressure, the defense, the easy shot quality, and
it is how ball dominant he is. Right. A couple

(37:22):
of years ago, this was a hot take at the time,
just because Tyree's hadn't ascended to where he is now.
I said that I would take Tyre's Halliburton over Trey Young,
and some people looked at me like I was crazy.
But it was that unselfishness and the ease of team
offense that Halliburton creates, and that's what I want to emphasize, Right,
It's that balance, and it's hard to gauge. Maybe you

(37:43):
do prefer Trey's overwhelming ball dominance. Maybe you prefer his
that style of play, but I don't, and that's why
I have Maxi above him. That's why I have guys
like haliburt. I prefer the more unselfish guys who can
play off ball as well. But when I say that,
I just don't also want to completely for granted what
Tray can do as your lead number one creator. He's

(38:03):
just proven it more than other guys on this list.
That's why I think he has to be stamped as
a top ten point guard. But again, I have to
recognize those laws and that's why he can't be like
a top five point guard to me. But bar Nunn,
if you don't have him in your top ten, I
really question your top ten. Like I think the Trey
in a lot of ways has become really undervalued and

(38:25):
underrated in a lot of NBA circles.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
I agree, dude. It's so funny. The pendulum always seems
to swing too far. Because there was a time where
I thought that collectively it was coming off of that
Eastern Conference Finals run, mostly people were a bit too
high on Trey. People were talking about him as being
like one of the greatest point guards ever, being clearly
on that trajectory. The raw production, of course was overwhelming,

(38:50):
but it was like, hey, guys, you know, their offense
wasn't really that efficient in this run, Like a lot
of that was actually on the back of their defense.
There are some limitations to this overwhelmingly ball dominant style.
He wasn't the most efficient in that run or in
that season. I think the pendulum has swung way too far, though.
I think people are way too low on Trey at
this point. They overwhelmingly focus on the negatives and do

(39:10):
not focus on the positives. I have him at number
six and I agonized seven through ten. I mean, I'm
still gonna lose some sleep over that. I actually don't
lose sleep over Trey at six. And the reason for
that is if you're talking about Maxy versus a Ja Morant,
if you're talking about Maxi versus aderon Fox, if you're
talking about Maxi versus a Damian Lillard, whatever, all those guys,

(39:31):
then you can get into the debate of are any
of these guys good enough as a number one to
where I should prefer the guy who is better as
a number one? But like, what's the ceiling to that
compared to a guy who maybe is a more conducive
number two. The difference is Trey's proven he can be
a Number one on great offenses. Like we're talking about
a guy who with very average personnel around him, has

(39:53):
already produced several elite NBA offenses. The Hawks have been
at least an eightieth percentile offense with him all on
the floor for four straight seasons. His offensive on off
has ranked in at least the ninety third percentile in
three of those four years, and he pretty much always
creates a good shot for you out of pick and roll.
He's the best law passer in the NBA. You mentioned

(40:14):
he's not going to be a great at rim finisher,
doesn't necessarily get super seamless shot quality there, but he's
one of the best floater shot makers in basketball forty
eight percent there on crazy high volume. He eats up
free throws, draws fouls like crazy out of pick and roll,
and you have the pull up shooting. So overall, he's
a really efficient pick and roll shot creator eighty eight

(40:35):
percent tile and he did just have an amazing pull
up shooting season. That's one reason that I think I'm
a little bit higher on Trey at this point than
I was last year when we would have had these conversations.
Fifty two percent effective field goal percentage and eleven points
per game off of pull up jumpers. This past year
was really sensational. And the other component is that he's

(40:55):
improved enough defensively to where I think he can be
a functional part of a good defense. It's not a
high bar. Trey is never going to be a plus defender.
He's never going to be an average defender. In my opinion.
You're talking about a six to one dude who is
super slight, who's always going to carry a heavy offensive load.
But it's improvement from when Trey was like, arguably the

(41:17):
worst defensive player in basketball, certainly the worst defensive star
in basketball. Now he's just gotten more competitive on that
side of the ball. He's found a way to use
his hands his instincts more to be effective. And although
I think he got a bit overrated on that side
of the ball this year, there's definitely some people who
still underrate him and don't acknowledge that improvement when it
has happened. And the shot quality that it manufactures man

(41:39):
for bigs, for shooters out of pick and roll particularly
is just excellent, and we focus in on his ball dominance,
but again, jaw is super ball dominant, right. Most of
these guys are ball dominant basketball players. Is Trey an
extreme version of it? Sure, and I do think that
that knocks some points for him, But also he's just

(42:00):
better at it than like all of these other guys.
He is simply better at manufacturing offense for the players
around him, and I'm gonna value that he carries your offense.
So when I think about starting a group from scratch,
if we just presume average talent, like, yeah, of course,
I would take Trey above some of the other guys
who were talking about all the other guys who we've
mentioned up to this point. When I think about who

(42:22):
I'd want to pair a young big with, particularly, I
would take Trey out of all the dudes outside the
top five. And it's honestly not that close. And that
is the fit that I just continue to salivate over. Logan.
If they got that man of San Antonio, I'm telling you,
Trey Young, discourse would flip because you talk about he's
not an intuitive number two, and he's not. But if

(42:43):
he could be your offensive number one with legitimately awesome
play finishers and dudes who could compensate for his shortcomings
defensively and you could be good on that side of
the ball. There is no reason that you could not
win a title with Trey Young as your offensive number
one and your second best play And that's something that
I'm not confident about saying. With the dudes below, like

(43:06):
Tyrese MAXI, I'm sorry, just as your best offensive player,
there's no chance you're gonna be scrapping to be an
average offense Jaw. I think you can say the same.
Daron Fox, I think you can say the same. Like
Trey's the one dude who has that sort of upside
carrying a unit, And I think that a lot of
the ragging on him at this point is about differences
in perception. You think about how people were talking about

(43:27):
him versus Daron Fox after last year's playoff run, when
he produced significantly more offense overall, I think they were
like equal in scoring, but he's giving you more playmaking.
He was actually more efficient in terms of true shooting
percentage facing a better defense with a worse offensive supporting cast.
And the takeaway from that was, oh my god, dearon
Fox is like a top fifteen player, this guy's amazing,

(43:50):
and it was, Yeah, I don't think Tray's top thirty five.
I don't think I want Trey Young on my basketball team.
It's perception, man, and it's expectations. Because he climbed the
mountain individual so quickly, he was getting hyped up so soon,
and so now everything he does is measured against that,
and people want to see progress. And if they don't
see dramatic progress. While other guys are improving and are

(44:11):
probably more fun to watch than Trey as well, those
guys always get the benefit of the doubt. Trey always
gets the criticism. That is not to say he does
not have limitations, and I don't have him in my
top five. Biggest limitation, well, I don't know if it
is at this point, but his defense is a limitation.
His pure efficiency as a shot maker is a limitation.

(44:31):
Fifty one point six percent effective field goal percentage this
past year, which is actually in the same range as
a lot of the other guys were talking about Fox
and Maxi and Jaw. In his playoff career, though it's
only forty six percent. And that is where what you mentioned,
the lack of super easy shot quality for himself. For
his teammates, he's always gonna spoon feed them great looks.

(44:52):
For himself, that can be a bit of an issue. Also,
just his shot selection can be frustrating sometimes. Trey tay
twenty seven shots, especially in these playoff environments, and some
of them are these really tough off the dribble threes
that of course he can make, But are they good shots?
Not always. Sometimes they take your offense out of rhythm
and constall it a little bit. I do think that

(45:12):
that's a downside, and it can be weird thinking about
how you pair him with another backcourt star. I think
with a front court star with a big oh my god,
he'd be amazing for that guy. But when you're talking
about on the dribble creation from the perimeter, dejenttey Murray
was always a weird fit.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Now.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
I don't think Dejentte is that good personally, and I
also think that his inconsistency as a shooter is specifically
an issue when you're trying to pair a guy with Trey.
But nevertheless, there's not a ton of guards you could
put in that backcourt who are stars with Trey, And
I would say that's an intuitive fit. So I don't
have him my top five for all those reasons, but

(45:48):
I do have him at number six, and I think
that I have gotten higher on him relative to the consensus,
just appreciating what he can do. Shouldering that sort of
offensive load and situation is keen. And Atlanta's just not
a good basketball team. I mean they are not close,
and if you put him with that dynamic big, I
think the ceiling is the roof.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
Yeah, I think they should send him to San Antonio
if I could get that deal done. Man, I'm throwing
everything I can in Atlanta and Atlanta.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Alana want him. They're so far away now.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
Yeah, Atlanta is also having a fire sale again. We
are recording this, you know, a few days in advance,
so I don't know if they've made any additional moves.
But you think, dude, they drafted aj Griffin in the
first round and they just moved off of him for
the forty like the forty fourth pick, a second round
draft pick to the Rockets. It's like Atlanta is pivoting

(46:44):
into full on tank mode. It seems, you know, they
move off to Jante. I gotta think that Trey is
gonna be another Domino that's gonna fall unless they think
that I don't know him, and I just if I'm Trey,
like I am trying to win basketball games, I'm not
getting any young I am in the prime of my career.
I am trying to get out of Dodge, dude. I
am trying to go win somewhere, and I hope they

(47:06):
can get him to San Antonio. I have already given
away my number seven. My number seven is Tigray SMAXI
that is the gentleman. I have one spot ahead, although
it seems like.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
I haven't given my number eight. I think that we're
gonna have a discremancy. I would presume he's your number six,
and if he is, we can just have the conversation
as your number sixty.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
Ear in Fox logan, Wow, I'm kind of shocked you
have him that low eight. It's a difference to two spots,
I know, but just Fox below Trey actually is surprising
to me.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
So here's my philosophy on that. It's actually related to
what I was just saying about their perspective around their
playoff performances. Fox is so fun to watch, right, I mean,
he is this absurdly quick downhill athlete, and specifically in
that playoff series against the Warriors, it was like, Wow,
you're talking about a mid range shooting clinic. Like, who's
not gonna love that guy? He plays with energy, it's fun.

(48:00):
But then you think about it and it's like, I'm
pretty sure that the Hawks also were the better team
offense against the better team defense in that playoff run.
There is simply an ability to manufacture great shots for
Trey that you don't get with the Aaron Fox. I
mean that is the biggest reason that he's at number
eight as a pure score. I am high on Fox
because awesome in the full court, of course, I mean

(48:22):
insanely difficult to stay in front of. Excellent ball handler,
low turnover player, just about two and a half a game,
really good finisher at the rim forty nine percent on floaters,
improved three point shooter up to thirty seven percent on
eight attempts a game this past year. Legitimately, really good
off the catch thirty nine percent on three plus attempts,
forty five percent on all two point jumpers. That mid

(48:44):
range game of his is very effective, and he's a
slight plus defensively, He's got really good hands, he's got
a propensity for playmaking on that end. He's got pretty
good length, he's quick. You know, He's not some real
difference maker defensively, but I would say he's a slight plus,
which is an advantage over a number of other guys
on this list. The limitations for him though, and for me,
the debate was about Fox versus Jaw. That was what

(49:07):
I really had a difficult time with because Fox is
the better shot maker, which I really value, and that
makes him the better scorer overall. To me, when you're
in these playoff environments, it is important that you can
beat a defense that is packing the paint. That you
can do so by killing them with that intermediate shot making.
I think that Fox has a clear advantage over Jaw.

(49:28):
I think he has a clear advantage as a three
point shooter there. I think he is clearly a better
off ball scorer because of his catch and shoot ability,
better all around score, better defender in my opinion. But
Jaw's a big playmaking edge like Jaw has that ability
again to make all the dynamic kickout passes and laydowns
and lobs and just to see the game with anticipation,
which Tray is just another level up in that respect, right,

(49:51):
he sees everything. He is such a genius passer that
Fox really doesn't have. Fox is probably the weakest playmaker
on this list. Him and Maxi are in a similar
tier there. That's a limiting factor man to me. And
it's even more limiting when it's like, as much as
I like Fox as a score, he's never going to
be super efficient. I mean that playoff run he was

(50:11):
like fifty three percent true shooting. This past year, it's
like fifty seven percent true shooting. And a big reason
for that, and another reason that his playmaking impact isn't
maybe what it could be, even though he's not like
extremely gifted. There is just that he lets defenses off
the hook a little bit too much at this stage
in his career. His most special trait isn't always will

(50:33):
be his quickness, but he's getting to the rim less
and less over the years. In twenty twenty, thirty one
percent of his shots came inside three feet. In twenty
twenty two, it was twenty percent. In twenty twenty four,
that number is just thirteen percent, and that's such a
big advantage for jaw. This is what I was hinting
at earlier. Jaw is always going to make the absolute

(50:56):
most out of his ability to get in the paint.
He will drive on you twenty five thirty times in
a game, and that is inherently gonna create good shots. Right,
Maybe you miss a layup, but there's a lot of
good outcomes that come from getting to the rim. You
draw fouls, you finish at the rim, you create a
shot for a teammate. I just wish that Fox was
doing more of that at this stage in his career.
And because he isn't, and because he is probably the

(51:18):
weakest playmaker here, I have him at number eight. I
think he's more equipped to be a number one than
MAXI I think he's better fit to be a number
two than Jaw. That's why I have him above those
couple guys. But versus Trey, I just think when you're
talking about shouldering the load of a perimeter number one,
there is a gap. Fox is the better pure shot maker,
I would say. I mean, he's more versatile there in

(51:40):
terms of utilizing the mid range. But Trey creates a
higher shot quality for himself and especially for his teammates.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
Well, I don't know about for himself. I think I
might put small fish on that I would just worry.
Here's my one concern about the tray versus Fox thing
is I would just worry about Trey a little bit more.
It's like visual like when I need him to step
up and get himself a bucket like Fox has that
where it is you make a great point. I'm so
glad you bring up the jump shooting dynamic because that's

(52:09):
one of the things that I've harped on ever since
Fox has improved as a jump shooter. It's that balance
of now that he's legitimately good as a jump shooter,
he settles so much more often and as a kingsman
it is frustrating because it's this thing like at the
start of a game where if he hits a pull
up three or he hits a pull up mid range,
it's like he gets it and the rest of the

(52:31):
game he's a little more confident in himself from there,
so he is going to take that shot more often
where you know he can just lull himself into a
repeated possessions of settling for that shot where I would
rather him get downhill. That's his best quality, and he
has improved so much more in slamming on the brakes
and pull up jump shooting and mid range shooting. The

(52:53):
reason that I have him over Trey, and I agree
with you, like I think he's got a I think
Trey has a playmaking edge that Fox can't make up for.
It is just manufacturing shots for himself, where Fox frustrates
me at times settling for the jumper at will. He
has something that nobody else in the league has. He
is the fastest man in the league, and that to

(53:16):
me is just an invaluable quality that I just hold
really really high that at a moment's notice, he can
just get right by you. If you have a plotting
big man and you get him involved in the pick
and roll, Fox can just blow by that guy and
get an easy look. And that's the edge to me

(53:36):
is I just think that in a playoff setting, I
worry way less about Fox creating an easy look for himself.
And I think there's a legitimate defensive gap between him
and a guy like Trey. And that's why I prefer Fox.
It's that fastest man in the league, dude. Nobody else
can say that, Like, Fox is still the quickest guy,
and I really value that and I worry about Trey

(54:01):
going stone cold in a playoff game and having all
these tough looks and he's just not hitting Fox. I know,
can get to those looks easy and you can't stop him,
like you're just not going to he is gonna blow
by you. He can get to those looks. Yeah, I'm
really really high on Fox. I'm just surprised, man. I
thought that Fox was kind of I don't know, like

(54:22):
in Sensus top six. Like to me, he is almost
stamped as that guy right outside the top five.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
For me, it's definitely close between the two of them.
I do also want to clarify I was talking about
those numbers from the playoff run. They were actually very
close on efficiency. Fox was like zero point eight percent better,
but the team offense was five points better for the Hawks.
Trey scored Moore, He of course, averaged a couple more

(54:48):
assists a game. I do think again, that's where perception
is a factor in the shot quality. It's like you
can't stay in front of Fox, but a lot of
times he is gonna slam on the brakes, He's gonna
take that mid range pull up, or he was taking
a bunch of threes in that run, and we know
that he took a bunch of threes throughout this regular season.
So that's where it's like, maybe the theoretical shot quality

(55:09):
for Fox can be higher than Trey's, but like sometimes
it's like Trey's just the better shot maker. If both
these dudes are gonna be taking pull up jumpers, I
know who I'd rather prefer to be the guy taking
all the pull up jumpers. For me, it's Trey Young.
He's just better at it. It's close, man, I uh,
I don't have a problem with you taking dearon Fox.
I do think he's the better off ball player as well,

(55:29):
but also it's like not necessarily that he's a difference
maker off ball. It's just the willingness to catch and
shoot and being pretty good. There is a slight advantage.
I'll take the better number one though. It's tough, but
I felt like I kind of gotta be consistent with
my thinking on this, and I'm gonna prefer the dudes
who I think are taking on the tougher jobs and
doing a good job of it if they're doing it

(55:51):
at the level that Trey is, especially because he is
doing it at like a difference making level. Where I'm
not like, eh, do I want that guy to be
my number one? I would say yeah, if you put
the right personnel around him on both sides of the ball.
I'm good with him being like my highest volume offensive player,
and I think you could win a championship. I do. Okay,
who's your number five? Logan? Know the beautiful thing about

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Speaker 1 (57:45):
Number five is the anti Tree Young. It is Tyrese Halliburton.
Haliburton's the guy that I would emphasize that difference where
Trey frustrates me sometimes with him doing too much, him
taking too many shots him being so overwhelmingly bald. And
that's really where this takes spawn from. Is I just
think Halliburton's fundamental unselfishness just leads to easy offense for

(58:08):
everybody in this run. Now with better talent, I think
you have seen Halliburton's unselfishness permeate to everybody else on
the team in a way that you see jokicchen the Nuggets.
Everybody wants to share the basketball, everybody wants to eat.
It's we're not looking for a good shot. We are
hunting a great shot. And something about those players, man,

(58:31):
it's rare. It is just rare that you see a
guy that has that kind of gene and he wants
to play like that, and it goes through to all
his teammates. I value that so so highly. And as
much as Halliburton has the ball in his hands and
as much as he you know, gets this offense going,
he is remarkably efficient in terms of taking care of

(58:51):
the basketball. He is so efficient as a shot maker
twenty points eleven assists on sixty one percent through shooting.
And if you harken back to when he was really
at his apex in the middle of this season. I
mean he was I want to say, twenty seven points,
twelve assists.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
On twenty four over is like twenty four twenty.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
Four like twelve on over sixty percent. For shooting, he
was the second best pull up jump shooter in the league.
He's a special special shooter too, man. And it's just
that combination, the pull up jump shooting, the overall shooting,
and the fundamental unselfishness. Man, it makes him such a
great player.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
He shot fifty five percent on floaters, he shot fifty
five percent out of the mid range. He shot sixty
eight percent in the restricted area. Again, we're just talking
about overall engines and right like, I think I prefer
to hear in Fox's individual scoring impact, right like the
ease that Fox can generate a shot for himself. But again,
it's the overall, the well rounded impact, the just fundamental

(59:51):
on selfishness. Man. You're just just so rare that you
see a player like this that can impact winning offensively
like that man, just through his sheer playmaking and pass.
And it's funny too, because we talk about Trey doing
too much. There's some games like in this playoff run,
where Halliburton would frustrate me with his passiveness where he'll
take less than ten shots in a playoff game. It's

(01:00:12):
the duality, right, But I will take the passivity in
some games and I will take him playing second fiddle
some games to just what he normally brings me on
a consistent basis with his winning impact offensively and how
unselfish he is and the genius of his playmaking. Man,
he is a brilliant, brilliant playmaker, one of the best

(01:00:34):
in the game, one of the most unselfish players I've
ever seen, and I've loved that from Halle from day one. Man,
that is something that has jumped off the page about him,
and that's why I think he stamped his top five. Dude,
it just leads to conducive, winning offense, and I think
him in Indiana are a perfect perfect fit.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Yeah, Indiana has the personnel to be a very good offense.
Halliburton makes them a great one. He is one of
the awesome ceiling raising players on this because his decision
making is so excellent that he basically optimizes offense. And
you mentioned that un selfishness. It is important right that
when a guy is able to tilt the defense one

(01:01:10):
way and then he swings it to the second side.
That those guys are able to make that extra swing
pass right, that they're able to attack that close out,
that they're capable decision makers. But just in terms of
creating those advantages, the advantages that can lead to the
opportunity for a great shot, holl he is one of
the best in basketball. And because of that, there's not

(01:01:31):
a play type where he doesn't contribute with great efficiency.
And the Pacers offense was just the best in basketball
this year. I mean it was. It was number two
in the regular season. It was the best offense in
the postseason. And that's both about the half court and transition.
He is the best hit ahead passer in the league.
Nobody is better about making sure that you play with pace,

(01:01:52):
creating easy opportunities for his teammates there, and he's a
ninety fourth percentile efficiency pick and roll creator. We're talking
about an elite shooter, awesome touch from flow to range,
an effective driver when he chooses to do that. And
he's not a high end athlete, right, he doesn't do
that at real high end volume, but he's got good
enough change in pace. And then there's an absolutely genius

(01:02:13):
passer who can make every reed to the roller, every read.
In terms of skip passes, he's outstanding consistently hitting poppers,
and he is so so willing to do so. Also,
when you talk about off ball value, eighty second percentile
spot up player, and he's gonna start basically every possession
with the ball in his hands. But it's not gonna
stick to him. It's gonna move. It's gonna move. It's

(01:02:34):
gonna move. So it may not show up as an
assist every time, it may not show up as a
shot attempt every time. He's creating the advantage that gets
things in the motion on a significant majority of these possessions.
And he's gonna be ready, right if you're talking about, okay,
make a swing pass, attack of close out, kick out
to the corner, attack of close out, right, he is
gonna be relocating. He is gonna be ready to catch

(01:02:55):
that ball again and then a knock down a spot
up jumper, which is a rare trait to have for
a star player. And you mentioned the production that he
was putting forth early in the year. Then he had
a slump. He had a big time slump after an injury,
and I just think clearly his confidence as a driver
was hampered because of the hamstring injury, which then made

(01:03:16):
him more overwhelmingly rely on the pull up jumper, which
made it more difficult, which lowered his shot quality a bit,
which made that less efficient. His volume went down. He
didn't want to assert himself at the same extent, like
all that stuff to me was overplayed. People talking about
Halle regression. Maybe he doesn't give you twenty four a night, right,
He's probably not gonna have this sort of Steph Curry

(01:03:37):
pull up shooting run that he did to start last year.
If he were, then he might even be a spot
higher on this lift, because that was an absolutely insane
basketball player. But I do think he's closer to that
than the guy that he was post hamstring, And I
think in the playoffs he bounced back and he got
to a place where it's like, yeah, sometimes you wanted
him to do more, absolutely, but overall he manufactured awesome

(01:04:00):
And people will try to detract from his contributions to
that because he maybe doesn't have the overwhelming eye popping
volume stats you know who led the Pacers and plus
minus Tyre's Halliburton, you know, plus minus on off in
the playoffs, Tyre's Halliburton. Not to say that, like, you know,
on a sample size like that in the playoffs, those
are the best metrics because things can get walky with

(01:04:21):
a small sample size like that. But also sometimes that's
because like these stars are playing forty minutes, so they're
barely ever off the floor. The Pacers actually play, dude,
so much like you're getting a decent sample with Halley
off the floor every game, and like, yeah, they still
could produce good offense, not great offense like they did
with Halliburton on the floor. So I am still super
high in him. That selflessness, that efficiency is a difference

(01:04:44):
maker between him and Trey in my opinion, And I
want to clarify I said that I think you can
win a title with Trey's your best offensive player. I
think that requires a lot going right. Part of that
is in my mind, I just I want him to
play with Wemby so badly, and if they got that pairing,
I think that they would win titles. But also Wemby's
kind of a freak. You'd have to have a really
good defense, you'd have to have really good supporting offensive personnel.

(01:05:07):
How is another dude, though, where it's like offensively, I mean,
it is up another level with him, the level of
efficiency that I expect him to produce if you put
pretty good personnel alongside him. I think you're already seeing that.
I think we're going to continue to see that. Okay,
how about number four, Logan.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
I just want to confirm too, So you have Halliburton
at five as well?

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
I have Hallie at five as well.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Okay, at number four, I have a guy that he
faced off with in the playoffs, and it's actually on
wrestling the other night. Is Jalen Brunson Electric. I've heard
a lot of people in the comment section and they
were like, I'd actually tune in if they just brought
random people who beef on.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
Like a great idea.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
I really was going to hit him with the chair.
I was fired up. They stared at each other, but
still pretty good overall.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
Dude, next week should get like Lebron and Steph out there, man,
that would be all awesome. Brunson. You talk about those
on off numbers, man, Brunson had one of the most
staggering ones in terms of offensive rating discrepancy. The Knicks
were fourteen point seven points per one hundred possessions better
with Brunson on the court. As an off that's an
offensive rating, excuse me, of one twenty three. With Brunson,

(01:06:18):
that's an offensive rating of one oh eight point three. Uh.
Without Brunson, that's a staggering difference. And the level that
he was at in terms of a pull up shooter
and a three point shooter this year was insane. He
shot forty percent from behind the arc, which with what
Brunson gives you is such a methodical driver, always hunting

(01:06:39):
a shot in the mid range. Uh, you know, going
to his post up game. He's just got so many
different ways to kill you that when he can shoot
at that clip from behind the arc, he's almost effectively unguardable.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
It is just so tough to stop a guy like that.
He shot fifty four percent on floaters, He shot forty
five percent on step backs, shot four forty three percent
out of the mid range, fifty three percent in the paint,
non restricted area. Like Brunson is so so stupid efficient
from everywhere on the court. And what's so remarkable to
me about Brunson scoring at this volume and still being

(01:07:14):
efficient player Carson was the burden that he had on
his shoulders. I mean, you look at the personnel in
New York. I get that Julius Randall was out there
for a while, but he's doing a lot of this
without Julius Randall. I mean, there's no other high level
advantage creator on this team. Brunton just shouldered such an
insane load this season and in these playoffs. It's just

(01:07:37):
remarkable that he held up which is two point four
turnovers per game in the regular season. Two Like, there
are just so few guys in the league that could
take this kind of responsibility, this kind of role and
generate offense like this. And again, to me, the differentiator
between him and other guys is the fact that he
can score from everywhere on the court. You are not

(01:07:58):
safe with Jaylen Brown. Anywhere wherever he is on the court,
he can get a bucket from. He's a really good
playmaker too. I don't think he's one of the highest
end playmakers, but he's still a really damn good one. Yeah, man,
I'm shocked. I am shocked that Brunton has climbed this high. Man.
I always like Jalen Brunson.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Oh yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
Did you know? I always thought he was a great
winning player. I never envisioned him becoming this kind of
basketball player. Man, a forty percent shooter from behind the
arc and just one of the best point guards in
all of basketball. Man, he's really special. He's really really special.
And I hope that with the guy like Tyler Kolett
coming into the fold, Man, with the Knicks making some

(01:08:40):
other big moves for like bridges, I hope that burden
can be alleviated even further off of his shoulders and
the Knicks can be even better.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
Brunson is one of the best scorers in basketball. Man,
he is one of the best point guards in basketball.
I think he has to be top five.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Gotta be top five, I would say has to be
top four. We would need to see Hallie get back
to the level that he was at early in last year.
And you could still argue maybe that Halle is the
better ceiling razer because he does so many things that
only get more valuable when you put better personnel around him.
In fact, I would say he's the better ceiling raizer.

(01:09:20):
But the ceiling that Brunson can get you to is
pretty damn high, and the floor that he can get
you to is definitely higher. Just because of the sheer
volume that he can take on. That's one of his
biggest strengths here. The last guard to average thirty two
points per game in a playoff run that lasted at
least twelve games was Kobe in two thousand and three.

(01:09:40):
Brunson is the first dude in twenty one years and
the last dude was Kobe Bean Bryant. And part of
that is just his conditioning is incredible, Like that is
a factor here. Not a lot of dudes can go
out there and take thirty shots a night like Jalen
Brunson is capable of. His diversity as a shot maker
is also massive, as you mentioned what he can do

(01:10:02):
out of isolation, what he can do out of pick
and roll, being an excellent pull up shooter, being fifty
percent from float range fifty three percent, actually utilizing the
mid range, having those turnarounds with his back to the basket,
having the mid range, and three point step backs. Like,
he just has so many ways to create for himself,
and he utilizes every part of the floor that creates

(01:10:25):
for him individually, quite a high floor. And his physicality
is an advantage as well. He's operating at a physical
disadvantage compared to like everybody else on this list. Right,
the guy's basically six foot he's listed at six to two.
He's I would say a little bit of a miniature
six to two. But he has the ability to create separation.
He has the ability to go through guys because of

(01:10:45):
his strength. That always matters in the playoffs. The playoffs
are in so many ways a strength game when more
physicality is allowed. Brunson does well in that environment. He
gets to the line at a good rate as well,
which helps his efficiency. And you mentioned that offense of
swing man fifteen points producing a ninety fifth percentile offense
with him on the floor, that's a pretty damn high ceiling.

(01:11:06):
And it's not with very good offensive personnel alongside him.
It's with solid spot up shooters. Their offensive rebounding is
absolutely component in them being such a good offense because
you're securing extra possessions that factors into their rating. But
what Brunson can do as like the one guy, the
one high end shot creator, is incredibly impressive. His limitations,

(01:11:29):
to me only really matter against the top three, and
those are the reasons that I can't have him in
the top three. Creating super easy offense. Everything for Brunson
is pretty tough. And when you talk about those floor
versus ceiling dynamics, that's where it's like guys who do
have more overwhelming physical advantages, or guys who instead of
shooting six seven pull up threes with good volume or

(01:11:52):
three pointers overall. Right, if you're talking about a Steph Curry,
well that's game breaking three point shooting at crazy volume.
That's crazy efficient. Because Brunson does utilize the mid range
and those touch shots so much. I like it. I
think it's good to have that sort of variety, but
it does make it a little bit harder to be
super super efficient in the playoffs. Fifty three percent trough

(01:12:15):
shooting that's in crazy difficult circumstances. In the regular season
fifty nine percent solid good, even not matching up to
the top three sort of guys, And largely that is
just because he's always operating at a size disadvantage and
he's quick, but he's not the quickest guy out there. Also,
you mentioned this advanced playmaking is an area in which

(01:12:37):
he's limited against some of the best dudes on this list. Right.
Part of it is his size. He doesn't have the
height to see everything, but he's not making the sort
of high end skip passes that we see with some
of these other dudes, these beautiful lob passes out of
pick and roll. And then you do question, like the
super ball dominant style, what is the absolute ceiling there?

(01:12:58):
Those are just little things. Those are why he isn't
in the top three. For me, I think the production,
I think his ability to carry an offense. I think
his variety and brilliance as a shot maker is just
too impressive to have any lower than this. All right,
into the top three, Logan, who is in your three spot?

Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
It pains me to say at number three this guy
was definitely number one for a very long time. It's
going to be Steph Curry. Steph this year put up
twenty six, five and five on sixty two true shooting.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
I think it would have been hard to argue anybody else,
you know, other than Steph for a really long time.
But we've seen Steph take a step back in a
few areas. One, you know, just athleticism, quickness, you talk
about generating really easy shots. Step is always going to
have the unparalleled weapon in NBA history of being the
greatest shooter ever we all know the G word. Everybody

(01:13:54):
talks about it. Steph's gravity is unlike that of anybody
else's and that is an invaluable trait to have. It
going to make him insanely valuable for however long he lasts,
you know, the rest of his career. The stuff that
you can do with him off ball, the stuff that
he can still do on ball, creating shots for himself.
But just seven point four percent of Steph shots came

(01:14:16):
within three feet. That is the lowest mark of his
entire career. I think that rim pressure reflects, you know,
his athletic downturn. He shot fifty one point five percent
on two pointers. That is the lowest mark for him
in a decade. And so again it's just the ease
of shot quality that Steph has at this point in
his career. And I do want to emphasize too, the

(01:14:39):
Warriors are not doing Stephan Curry any favors with the
personnel that he has on the court with him. He
is in an exceptionally tough situation at this point in
his career. Right. Steph was thirty five last year. Man,
He's not getting any younger, and his situation is not
getting any easier. Man Clay is a shell of himself,
not anywhere close to what he once was. You're trying

(01:14:59):
outline up that have really poor spacing with Draymond Green
or Looney or Trace Jackson Davis. He's the only real
offensive creator for his team. So what I just want
to emphasize here is I think Steph has taking a
step back for sure from where he once was. It's
just naturally gonna happen. Man, We're gonna get there too
one day, Carson, We're gonna get old into crepit and

(01:15:20):
our knees aren't gonna work anymore, man or I don't know, Man.

Speaker 2 (01:15:22):
Carl, Bro, that's hell of person.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
I'm sorry, Bro, that wasn't intentional.

Speaker 2 (01:15:29):
Oh, I'm sure it wasn't. The knees specifically, knowing that
I've had three Pteller dislocations, the unmitigated gall out of you,
Logan Camden.

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
I just mentioned that because I felt really old this morning.
When I woke up. My knees were hurting, and I just.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Imagine if you were looking at your knee and your patella,
your kneecap was out of place, your knee was just flat, Logan,
imagine not having to do that thrice.

Speaker 1 (01:15:52):
I would prefer not to think about that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
Actually imagine going under the knife for that. That's just
my lift experience.

Speaker 1 (01:16:00):
I have been fortunate. I have been very fortunate in
the health department, my friend. Why anyways, it's gonna happen
to all of us, man, and it has naturally happened
with Steph. But while I emphasize that that Steph has
taken a little bit of an athletic back seat, the
Warriors are not doing him any favors, Like, his situation
is insanely hard, and when you're looking at other difficult

(01:16:22):
situations across the league, I think it's Steph is in
one of the toughest. Like that's what we can't take
for granted is how great Steph has consistently made the
Warriors in it just super tough situations. And I think
Steph could be more efficient. I think his numbers could
be even better if they got him some more offensive

(01:16:42):
help in Golden State. But there are just two guys
that are just simply better in my opinion at this point, man,
And it is just inarguable to have stuff above those guys.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
I think there are some people who will make the
Brunson has surpassed Steph argument. That's where I'm going to
push back, and I'm going to disagree. I do prefer
what he can do in terms of just like this
overwhelming value making life easier on his teammates. Because of
his off ball value, which is like nothing that we've
ever seen with this very lackluster supporting cast logan, he's

(01:17:17):
still produced an eighty second percentile offense while he was
on the court. Nobody else in NBA history has morphed
defenses like this to create easy shots for his teammates.
And that is not just off ball, right, that's also
with his ability to run these absurdly high pick and
rolls that you have to blitz and then you're creating
four on threes. That's Steph. That's what he's always done,

(01:17:40):
and his value to an offense will never be fully
captured on the stat sheet. That is absolutely still true.
And by the way, he's still an awesome on ball
like statistical producer. He's still the third most efficient twenty
point per game scoring guard in all of basketball, just
behind the two dudes who are above him on this list.
Seventy ninth percentile pick and roll creator, an eighty third

(01:18:02):
percentile isolation creator. The guy is absolutely outstanding, but he
has taken a step back, and it's not necessarily a
huge one, but it is to the point where it's like,
the top two guys are the top two guys, and
I think you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise.
His last twenty five games, Steph was just twenty three
a night on fifty seven percent truugh shooting. It was

(01:18:24):
his least deficient pick and roll season since his prime started,
and it was really the least that he has created
for others in the scope of that prime as well.
So when we're just comparing him to we can say
his name SGA, who is the guy who I have
one spot above him. Defensive impact is actually one gap

(01:18:44):
between the two, but more importantly, it's just the ability
of SGA to exert himself physically and produce consistently in
a way that Steph can't match at this point, to
create such a high shot quality for himself to be
there every single night giving twenty five plus points with
good efficiency, pressuring the rim, killing you with intermediate shot making.

(01:19:08):
SGA is just significantly more consistent in that respect than
Steph at this point. I do think that he is
just clearly the better basketball player. But I don't think
that you could convince me that Steph belongs any lower
than this, because the guy's amazing. He's still Steph Curry.
So much of the all time special stuff that he
does applies, and you put the right dudes around him,

(01:19:29):
you can still be an amazing basketball team. The Warriors
have done him at his service. The Warriors middling deem
success is not about Steph. I mean, Steph's playing at
an unbelievable level. Is it a little lower than it
has been? Yes, But his supporting cast it's just not
very good.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
Plus, SGA's got more Aura man. That was the one
thing that you also didn't mention.

Speaker 2 (01:19:49):
I mean, Steph has aura bro. Steph is kind of
the og Aura man. He's cute, he shimmy's, he has
Hella swag. He's like the most fun basketball player to
watch maybe ever. Steph has Aura bro. I'm gonna have
to maybe disagree. SGA has also obviously insane aura.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
I think there's a massive Ara gap at this point, man.
SGA is on a different level.

Speaker 2 (01:20:13):
Do you really you really think there's a massive or
the goat man You're just saying that because the Skims ads, Bro.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
What how do you know what ads I've been watching?

Speaker 2 (01:20:24):
I know you Logan, plus I have your computer search history. Dude,
Skims is about as good as it gets. That's about
as as broad as it gets.

Speaker 1 (01:20:35):
I was gonna say, that's on the good end, man.
You don't want to get into the weeds of that.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
Yeah, you searched SGA edging compilation, which luckily didn't exist anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:20:43):
SGA is probably my favorite player to watch in the league.
Like him or Brunson are just masters, masters of their craft.
And I completely agree with what you said about the physicality, man,
That is the distinction to me. And I know that
people get tired of the word consist with SGA, but
that really is what it is, man. It is it's

(01:21:04):
such a consistent baseline you get every single game, and
it's just stuff that you can't take away. The way
he uses his arm and pushes off of guys, the
way he big bodies guys, the acrobatic finishes at the rim,
the way he could finish through contact but can also
finish with insane finesse, the mid range game. The thing
that's so remarkable about watching SGA play is he will

(01:21:28):
take the most difficult shot you've seen in the game.
It is one hundred percent contested. He is a hand
in his face. He has just created a sliver of
space and you're going, man, there's no way that shot
can go in right, bottoms, bottoms bottoms. SGA is just
like that, and you just can't stop it. You just
can't stop him, man. He is There's no real way

(01:21:52):
to game plan or like to take away what SGA does.
And it really befuddled me Cartson that leading into these playoffs,
there were so many people suggest testing that SGA was
going to take a step back in the playoffs, or
he was going to fall off, or this wasn't something
that he could do every single night. Bull he did
it every night. Like there was a point in these

(01:22:12):
playoffs where I would have taken SGA probably over anybody
else in the playoff field of what he was giving you. Man,
And he is just thirty and six every night. You
can't stop him. He is so damn efficient from everywhere
on the court. Man sixty nine percent in the restricted area,
fifty two percent in the paint non restricted area, forty
nine percent in the mid range, forty six percent on

(01:22:34):
step backs. It's the change in pace, it's the physicality,
it's the acceleration. It's the aura, man, it's it's everything.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
It's not the aura, bros.

Speaker 1 (01:22:43):
The aura, dude. That's why he doesn't miss. Where he
ever wondered why SGA doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
Miss, he's aura maxing. Yeah, that makes sense exactly. Yeah,
we should all do that. I have SGAT number two
as well. He's the most consistent scorer in the league,
thirty nine on sixty four percent true shooting. You know
what you're getting every time out. And it's just an
incredibly well rounded skill set that he has. You mentioned Logan,

(01:23:07):
the insane shiftiness, the insane change in pace, which is
like kind of second to none. I mean, he and
Luca both have crazy change in pace. They both have
crazy deceleration. I think that SGA's pure acceleration is definitely
a little shiftier than Luca's deceleration, I would say is
a little bit nastier. But to slithery dudes, you can't

(01:23:30):
keep him away from the rim. He's the number one
restricted area scoring guard in basketball. And if you can,
like the Mavericks, for example, we're committed to doing in
the playoffs, loading up the paint, roaming off of those
corner shooters to always have an extra helper. Well, then
he shoots fifty two percent in the paint outside the
restricted area, fifty percent for mid range. Like he is

(01:23:51):
both the best at rim scoring guard in the league
right now by volume, like just objectively, and the best
intermediate range shot maker really in basketball. It is insane
how dominant he is as a paint scorer. And the
one thing that people have said is, well, maybe you
can leave him from three. We he was great from

(01:24:12):
three in these playoffs. He was like forty three percent
and consistently right he can get to that little step back.
It's not his preference, but if you give him too
much room, he is a good three point shooter. I
thought this playoff run was really impressive, thirty seven six
and a half on fifty eight percent through shooting with
three stocks. You mentioned that difficult shot making. That was
the biggest thing in this playoff run because he wasn't

(01:24:35):
able to get to the rim like he normally does.
Because his teammates were just incapable of punishing Dallas for
leaving them incapable of punishing Dallas for sending aggressive help.
They couldn't make the necessary decisions as playmakers, they couldn't
knock down the necessary shots as she I thought was
quite good as a playmaker in that series. He made
a lot of good reads, got the ball out to

(01:24:57):
open guys who just couldn't deliver, and he still was
able to carry this offense just on the back of
I am such a tough ass bucket. When you combine
that with what he normally does pressuring the rim, it's
just absolutely outstanding. He might be my favorite player to
watch in the league right now. I mean he's my
favorite scorer to watch. I'll say that Joki is probably

(01:25:19):
my favorite all things considered, because of the passing. But
I think Sga is an absolute artist. The number of counters,
the balance, the body control, the pure shot making. He's
an artist, man. He's also the most valuable defender on
this list. Sometimes maybe he gets overrated there because of
the stocks. I think he got underrated after the Dallas
series because people acted like him helping off of Derrek

(01:25:41):
Jones Junior in PJ. Washington, both of whom he was
assigned to in stretches, was just like him. Not knowing
how to defend. No, it's him roaming. It's him playing
that sort of free safety helper role, coming over and
offering help on roles, being there as a low man,
and he's good at that. I mean, that's where he
averaged re stocks a game in the playoffs. He's a
pretty good rebounder. He gets into passing lanes, produces a

(01:26:05):
lot of steals, forces turnovers. I just don't think there's
an argument for anybody else in the top two at
this point. I think the gap between him and Steph
is clear. His limitations though, just compared to the number one,
and I think it's close. I think if you don't
think it's close between these two, I would disagree. I
think Sja is stamped as a top five player, and
I know that some people don't feel that way. I

(01:26:26):
think his game is built for the playoffs because of
how he dominates the paint, and I think he's just
gonna continue to turn out dominant season after dominant season,
and as his team matures around him, they'll win titles.
He was ready this year. He really was, and that
is like kind of the most important thing for okc Rest.
Your team is young, you need some improvements in terms

(01:26:46):
of your offensive skill and consistency. SGA was there. He
was ready for the moment. But his couple limitations. He's
not an elite playmaker. He's a good one. He can
get tripped up as a bit as a decision maker.
He's not gonna make a lot of those next level reads,
and the lack of volume three point shooting does limit
his scoring ceiling. He is the most consistent. He hits

(01:27:07):
his floor more than anybody. I mean, he had more
thirty point games this year than anybody since I want
to say it was eighty eight Jordan, he was at
least on that pace. I mean, he is an exclusive
company just in terms of hitting thirty every night. But
there is more potential for explosions with say a Luka Doncic.
If that guy takes twelve threes and he makes seven

(01:27:30):
or eight of them, SJA doesn't quite have that upside.
Those are just the little areas where Luca has an
edge over him.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
Took the words out of my mouth. Those are the
two points I was gonna make. Luca's got a higher
scoring ceiling. I definitely think SGA is the more consistent scorer,
but it is the fact that he takes those volume
amount of threes. The other thing is that Luca is
one of the most masterful playmakers in basketball. Ever, I
think he's the number two scorer and the number two

(01:27:58):
I don't know about score him A SGA is close
kind of again depends on what you value. I think
Jokic is the number one score and playmaker in basketball,
and then I would have Luca too. The scoring is close,
but it is that explosions to me and Luca can
be frustrating, right like when he just continually settles for
that jumper and you know that he can just work

(01:28:18):
his way into the paint and get a great look
every single time. But it's the attention that he commands. Man,
you have to send doubles at him when he is
eating or he is just going to tear you alive.
There are very few guys that can hang with him
in isolation. And the one thing I want to emphasize
about Luca too over this playoff run, I do think

(01:28:40):
he could have been a little bit better defensively on
the biggest stage. I think he has some emotional and
like just control things that he needs to work through.
Like on the biggest stage, I think that was evident.
But you know, a bad finals performance or him not
winning the finals against a stacked Boston team did not
fundamentally change the way I view Luca Doncic or something.

(01:29:00):
I know people get extreme with these things, where all
Luca lost in the finals, so Jason Tatum's better or
something like that. Yeah. Like, in a lot of ways, Carson,
I think that this is just the trials and tribulations
of a guy who is this damn good this early right,
people criticize Dirk Nowitsky for a very long time, and
a lot of ways, I think it mirrors this in

(01:29:21):
a lot of ways. I think it mirrors you know,
Dirk's kind of path too. You know, he loses in
the finals early, people judge him prematurely, and I don't
know how you don't look at this finals run as
a testament to how great Luca is as a player
man and what he can do. Like Kyrie was inconsistent, man,
this is not an overwhelmingly talented offensive team. I think

(01:29:42):
you should give Dallas a lot of credit for the
defense that they put behind him, because that was equally important.
But they can't do this without Luca. Man. Lucas one
of the most special players on planet Earth. And it
was an underwhelming finals. I was disappointed, especially the one
game where Luca fouls out. I mean, that was so disappointing.
But this finals runs a testament to his greatness. And

(01:30:05):
I am so so confident that Luca is gonna get
back here one day and I think he's gonna hoist
the trophy. Like, Luca is that great of a basketball
player that I think he has to. It's gonna be
disappointing to me if Luca never wins a chip Man.
He is one of the most talented players I've ever seen. Like,
I think he's gonna do it, and I think it's
a testament that he got his team this far and
this quickly and this young. That's also why people, I

(01:30:27):
think judge Luca so harshly, is that he is so
accomplished at such a young age.

Speaker 2 (01:30:32):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:30:32):
There are just very few guys that have done all
this by the age of twenty five. Man, he's been
to a finals, He's been All NBA what five times already?

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
It is ridiculous five times.

Speaker 1 (01:30:44):
Yeah, he is just on a historic, historic trajectory, and
I think this is his title until further notice. And
I don't really know what SGA could do. The playmaking
gap between him and SGA is so large that I
just don't know what SGA could do to surpass him.
The defensive gap is pretty big, Like I think SGA
is a better defender than Luca, but the playmaking gap

(01:31:07):
is just much much too large for me to put
SGA or to even think that that's possible.

Speaker 2 (01:31:15):
I think that the playmaking gap does outweigh the defensive
gap as well, But I think that if you were
to argue the SGA case, that would be what it's
based upon. And I guess just the consistency is a
scorer because there is a bit more volatility with Luca
now even then they're used to be, because although he's

(01:31:35):
clearly a better jump shooter, he just had a career
jump shooting regular season, and that's part of what made
him so devastating. The best version of himself that we've
ever seen. He's always taking those shots at a high volume,
but he's even more reliant on the jumpers now he's
getting to the rim less. Second year of his career,
twenty six percent of his shots came inside of three feet.
Now that number is down to twelve percent. It's kind

(01:31:55):
of the trend with a lot of these guys. As
they get older, they become more and more reliant on
the jumper, and he's gotten better at those shots one
hundred percent. But in the playoffs he's forty seven percent
effective field goal percentage overall on pull up jumpers, which
is not a bad number, but it's about five percent
lower than his regular season and it's not a particularly
good number, and that was because it was just a

(01:32:17):
real Jekyl and hydak there. He came out ice cold,
then he was red hot against Minnesota, then he cooled
down again in the finals. Overall, so there's a little
bit more volatility when you're relying on those tough step
back threes versus SGA just getting to his bread and
butter ten twelve footers that we know are super consistent.
But the ceiling Luca provides offensively is clearly higher. Like

(01:32:37):
I think, offensively overall, there's a gap. Luca is to
me one of the ten to fifteen best offensive players. Ever,
I said number ten in terms of his peak when
we had this conversation during the playoffs, you could argue
down to fifteen. I think you go below that and
I'm not sold. I just think the ability to get
whatever he wants out of pick and roll, to bully

(01:32:57):
so many different matchups, out of isolation, to make every pass,
to manipulate the defense, to move the lowman wherever he wants. Right,
you blitz the pick and roll and you come over
to tag the roller. Well, then he hits that skip pass,
or he can fake as if he's going to hit
the skip pass, move you back out to the corner shooter,

(01:33:17):
free up the roller to get wide open. He can
see every passing angle at his height. He's a great
lob passer, obviously, and on top of that, he's going
to give you an efficient thirty four points per game.
The guy's sensational I do think that he is definitely
number one in this conversation. Now, he does have some issues,
and I think the biggest one that he has to
improve upon is the consistency of his defense and probably

(01:33:39):
conditioning interrelated with that. Because I thought his defense was
fine throughout most of the playoffs. I thought he was engaged.
I thought he made plays with his hands, and then
the finals were mostly a disaster where he was not
just incapable of staying in front of guys. He didn't
seem to care. He was just making these inexcusable lapses
away from the ball, and he was a really big
negative on that end in the finals. But I'm seeing

(01:34:01):
some people act as though he's like consistently worst defender
in the league level, act as though you mentioned the
Jason Tatum thing, like he's surpassed him because lucas that
bad defensively, That to me is not accurate. Maybe the
injury was something of a factor. I'm not giving Luca
any excuses for the level he defended at the finals.
I shredded him for that because he deserved it. But
in terms of the projection, do I expect that to

(01:34:24):
happen again next time that he's in a situation with
those sort of stakes. No, I don't think so. And
then I think the offensive shot quality that he can create,
and some of the improvements that he has made in
his game, being a little bit more willing to be
a catch and shooter, being a little bit more willing
to push and transition, these are marginal improvements. He's still
an overwhelmingly ball dominant player. He's the Luca that we've

(01:34:46):
always known, but with some alterations, with some improvements year
after year, improved postgame, all these things that have made
him just a bit better starting from an incredible place.
I do want to just give one last shout out
to SGA's scoring numbers by play Type Bro because this
shit is so stupid. Ninety fifth percentile pick and roll,
eighty eighth percentile isolation, obviously one of the best transition

(01:35:07):
scores in basketball, ninetieth percentile post up, the footwork, the
bag man. I am kind of in love with SGA.
I'm not even gonna lie, but I have him number two.
I do think that Luca is better. Okay, there's our
top ten logan. I think the biggest surprise to me
is not even about our lists. It's about the fact
that you think Kate Cunningham is better than Jamal Murray.

(01:35:29):
That's where I was confused at the start of this list.
I was like, are you gonna have SGA as a
shooting guard? Luca is a shooting guard? Because I thought,
surely Jamal has to be the first cut. He's not
even your first cut.

Speaker 1 (01:35:40):
No, he's my third cut. I had Drew Holliday above Jamal.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44):
No way, no way, you gotta get this guy. Lobottomized,
what do you remember what Jamal did in twenty twenty three?
How many dades you know who can average twenty six,
six and seven on sixty percent true shooting in a
title run? Not many?

Speaker 1 (01:36:03):
I mean I was gonna ask you who is the
who do you think is most likely to fall on
this list?

Speaker 2 (01:36:10):
And who do you.

Speaker 1 (01:36:11):
Think is most likely to join this list by the
end of next year? If you had to.

Speaker 2 (01:36:15):
Pick most likely to fall, I guess would be Dame.
Just as a matter of age, I don't see anybody
else regressing. I guess I could be like, oh, man,
you know, I don't like what I'm seeing from Jar
or somebody. But I think all those guys are pretty

(01:36:35):
solid and are only trending upwards. So even though I
have Dame at seven, I have a few guys blow him.
He'd probably be the most likely to fall off at
this point. Most likely to join I guess it would
be Kid. But I'm not done with this Jamal Kaid
conversation yet, Man, Drew, I Drew. Here's the thing, Logan

(01:36:55):
Drew is now the beneficiary of an amazing situation where
he can be your fourth or fifth option offensively and
do all his good complimentary stuff was a numberrojectively, you're not.

Speaker 1 (01:37:05):
Winning an objectively Jamal's an objectively bad defender.

Speaker 2 (01:37:08):
Though, right, not like bad bad, like mediocre to fine.

Speaker 1 (01:37:16):
Yeah, I mean I was thinking of it in terms
of like who would I who would I rather have
as like my number one? Like if you put Jamal
in Detroit, does that actually really make a difference to you?

Speaker 2 (01:37:27):
I just think his edge as a shot maker is real, man, Like,
kid's a good jump shooter, Sure, Jamal is an insane
jump shooter. He is like fifty percent from mid range,
forty percent from deep, crazy efficient on step backs. That
provides a real playoff value. And this year it went south.

(01:37:48):
And I want to just elaborate a little bit on
why I do have him off because it pays me
because I love Jamal Murray. But he had the worst
true shooting percentage in this postseason by any twenty point
per game scorer of the last five years. It is
really brutal and playmaking also compared to like everybody else
on this list. You know, you can say he's in
the MAXI Fox here, but he is clearly one of
the weakest dudes there. So no Jamal wouldn't be a

(01:38:10):
difference maker as a number one. He wouldn't be. I
just think he's clearly a better number two. And I
think Drew, as much as I love the guy, he's
got to be like your fourth best player, or maybe
your third best player overall, but your fourth best player
offensively to win the title, your fourth scoring option. I
just think that's crazy. Jamal just was the number two

(01:38:30):
on a title team. Everybody in my top ten I
think either could do that or as at number one,
you know, they could bring you to winning like forty
five to fifty games and make you a solid offense.

Speaker 1 (01:38:43):
I mean, maybe I'm just scarred from this playoff run from.

Speaker 2 (01:38:46):
Jamal, but I think you're scarred.

Speaker 1 (01:38:49):
I just also don't I don't view him as a
number one. I think Kate is a can be.

Speaker 2 (01:38:53):
Drew Holiday is a number one where in the senior center,
in the Big three.

Speaker 1 (01:38:58):
Drew is just because of all of his defensive value
that he brings. I don't think Jamal brings really any
like Jamal's fun.

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):
I think you're understanding when Jamal is engaged. He's six
or four. He's a solid athlete, he's strong, he's fine,
you don't look at him out there and think, oh man,
like you try to mismatch attack on Jamal, You're not
gonna find a lot of success. Right when Lebron goes
at Jamal, Jamal holds up fine. I would say he's
an average defender, and I would say he is leaps

(01:39:26):
and bounds above Drew offensively. If Drew was your second option,
you'd be fucked. I mean, Milwaukee tried to do that,
and what did he do? He went out there and
you know, the only reason that Jamal is the worst
guy in the last five years in terms of playoffrue
shooting percentage for this past year because I set the
bar too high for Drew. Drew's taking enough shots. He's
just not scoring twenty a game. He's out there giving
you seventeen. And I don't like forty six forty seven

(01:39:48):
percent try shooting. He did that for three straight years.
I think you're too much Jamal right now.

Speaker 1 (01:39:54):
I just think we also have to remember that Jamal
plays with Nicola Jokic. I mean, like.

Speaker 2 (01:39:58):
Drew Holliday plays on the most talented basketball team in
the league, where he can score thirteen points per game,
and all we do is sing his praises.

Speaker 1 (01:40:04):
He's clamps. He's clamps.

Speaker 2 (01:40:07):
He's an awesome defensive player. Gives me how go for you?
I mean he's third, I know, but I'm just saying,
like this defense over offense. I mean, it's so Drew
is allowed to be a role player.

Speaker 1 (01:40:21):
Drew is the only one. Drew's the only one that
I have up to side. Everybody else is off I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:40:26):
Saying, like, if we just convert this to another position,
how many people is Jade McDaniel's better then.

Speaker 1 (01:40:33):
Jane McDaniels doesn't have the offensive value that Drew Holiday does.
Why are you acting like Drew is a complete love? Offensively?
I can play make he can still get downhill and
finish like.

Speaker 2 (01:40:43):
Because we saw what he looked like when he was
asked to handle any sort of starbird and offensively over
the last few years, and it was hideous in the playoffs,
it was.

Speaker 1 (01:40:53):
Brutal, tough.

Speaker 2 (01:40:54):
I love Drew. I made a whole video appreciating Drew.
But and look, I don't even think Drew's Drew would
honestly maybe be my twelfth guy, might take him over.

Speaker 1 (01:41:03):
It's agreedious because it's Jamal.

Speaker 2 (01:41:05):
Because Jamal, I think is clearly eleven. You said you were.

Speaker 1 (01:41:10):
Struggling because you want to go in French Jamal.

Speaker 2 (01:41:13):
Because he played like a top fifteen dude in a
playoff run last year a year ago. And he also
did it basically in the playoff run before that. And
Drew Hardy can't do that, and Kate Cunningham can't do that.
I don't know, man. I think there's eleven top ten
point guards and Jamal Murray is one of them. I wow, wow, man.

Speaker 1 (01:41:40):
This guy wants to French Jamal.

Speaker 2 (01:41:43):
Why are you taking it there as if I haven't
only made salient basketball points? Ye, admit it.

Speaker 1 (01:41:49):
Love Jamal. I just I just think it's funny how
much you love Jamal Murray. I've just never seen such
like Jamal. You love Jamal Murray more than any other
person I've met. Man.

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
He's so fun to and he's also awesome, and he's
the second best player on a team that has, over
the last two years been tied for the best basketball
team overall with the Celtics, where Drew Holli is the
next their fourth best player when they're healthy.

Speaker 1 (01:42:14):
Who's the next guy to you after Jamal?

Speaker 2 (01:42:17):
After Jamal? It's probably Drew or James Harden. It might
be Harden. Harden is obviously a significantly better offensive player.
He creates pretty damn good shot quality, but there's an
extreme volatility there and obviously a big old gap defensively.

(01:42:38):
One of those two, then I think you get into
like then I'd probably go Kaid. Then I'd probably go
LaMelo Garland. You know we're getting into that sort of range.

Speaker 1 (01:42:51):
Yeah, I think that's about right. I had a similar Yeah,
I had similar thoughts after that.

Speaker 2 (01:42:57):
I think I would have KD fourteen. I just think
at this point think Harden is still pretty clearly better
than Cad. I mean, just the mastery of playmaking, with
the pull up shooting where he does have an edge,
the shot quality you're getting from him is higher. But
you know me, I love a low kid in my life.
All right. There you go, folks. Wow, what a difficult list.

(01:43:18):
Early on, I was reconsidering everything in my life for
a moment, but then I said, you know what, No,
I feel good about this list. I feel good about
this list, and I'm gonna stick with it. Lots of
fun and we are going to continue doing this throughout
the summer. We've got four more positions to get to,
so that should be a blast. If you guys want
more of that, make sure to subscribe to our YouTube
channel so you see all of it. You can catch

(01:43:38):
all of our content here, all of our full shows,
all of our video essays, and all of our trivia
stuff which we will continue to do throughout the summer.
We just had an episode go up with Hive Mind
which was Bundles of Fun. Everybody go check that out.
And if you want to follow us across social you
can do so TikTok, Instagram at Nerd, Sash, Twitter at nerd,

(01:43:59):
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and you can check out our merch at the Volume
dot com. You can also join our discord to chat
with the fellas. So with that, as always appreciate you guys.
I've been Carson Braber, i.

Speaker 1 (01:44:13):
Have been Logan Camden and this was nervous. Sash

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Nerd Sesh - Top 10 Point Guards

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Colin Cowherd

Jason McIntyre

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Dateline NBC

Are You A Charlotte?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Nerd Sesh - Top 10 Point Guards