Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to The Favorites, the podcast part of the Volume
Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Chad Molman of the Action Network.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Hi everybody, This is producer Matt Mitchell. Chad and Simon
are still on vacation, so today I've got a special
treat for you. Seven years ago this week, shortly after
the creation of the Action Network and long before the
advent of the Volume Podcast Network, Chad Moman welcome to
his longtime friend Colin Cowhard onto the podcast. The Favorites
(00:38):
was called The Buffet at the time, and PASPA had
just been repealed by the US Supreme Court, opening the
floodgates for legalization of sports betting nationwide. In this episode,
you'll hear Chad and Colin discuss the future of sports
betting content. We'll learn why Colin hates too many choices,
how he approaches building a TV show, and a whole
(01:00):
lot more. I hope you enjoy it. The show is
off on Thursday, so on behalf of everyone here at
the Favorites Podcast. We wish you a very happy, healthy
and profitable Independence Day and happy Birthday America. Enjoy.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I have a good friend who also is probably the
most talented radio host and you can include sports and
nonsports in that. Working in the biz today, my former
cast mate at ESPN, who I was on a show
with for two years now at Fox starring on all
various platforms for Fox Sports, mister Colin Cowherd.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
How you doing, buddy, Hey, how are you doing? I'm
doing great, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
We got so much exciting stuff to talk about because
you and I have been talking about sports betting in
the mainstream space.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Honest to God.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
We probably became friends in like twenty eleven when I
moved with the magazine of Bristol and we would talk
about it on your show. And then we were doing
Collins Football Show on Sunday Meet You and Tom Model,
which was fun, so fun, maybe the greatest professional experience
any of us.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
It still ranks is the most fun I've ever had
in my career. It was so fun.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I mean that show, honest to guy.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
You know, there are times, you know, because we are
starting something brand ne who had Action Network, and honest
to God, like I am shooting this in our studio
which doubles as our conference room, and it is not
all that dissimilar from the studio we had for Collins
Football Show. It is like a converted closet.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of a I'm kind of
a believer in if you can't be. We knew the
show was never going to be anfl Live, so once
you know you're not it wasn't a ratings play. What
it was going to be is kind of an iconoclastic, weird,
contrarian play. And we went into that show with a
(02:54):
perfect mindset of let's do a show where a guy
wakes up on Sunday and what would he laugh at.
We had cartoons on that damn show because once you
get out of the pressure of okay, it's Sports Center six,
you got to get a rating. We knew we were
on Sunday morning, right, So once you're out of that space,
you get all this freedom to just be goofy and funny.
(03:15):
And I thought it was such a liberating fun show.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
It really was.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
What the best part about it was there were times
where I would be sitting with you at the desk,
or Wattle would be sitting with you at the desk,
or you would be doing your monologue, and people would
just we would just start yelling at each other, cat
calling either a comment like there were so many times
where I would like say something to you about a game,
and we had this segment where like you'd ask me,
(03:40):
what are the wise guys thinking? And I tell you
if you were right or wrong based on your premise,
and like Wattle would just come in from left field
with the strangest comments as if like we were listening
to him, as if we were sitting in someone's living room.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Well, it's the one thing I miss about doing local
radio is that you could burn segments on just goofiness.
And now every segment I do, I mean it's charted graft,
but that there's a number to it. It's sponsored. So
it's a bit reductive where you're doing the same kind
of stuff and you have to talk about all the
big brands Lebron Brady, NFL, NBA. But there is a
(04:17):
freedom when you're not playing in the big rating space
that you can just be fun and funds an important
part of our business.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Do you ever get sick of having to play in
the big rating space?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Well, I do find Again the word I would use
is reductive. I do find that once you go to
television and that's big boy business, and I'm in a
spot now where you know, I'm trying to get numbers.
I'm competing against the goliath that I do the same
topics over and over. It's my responsibility to make them
(04:50):
as interesting as I can. But that's you know, you
can't do lacrosse topics, you can't do top ten sports
movie topics. And some of that is a good need
that you can do that in local radio. You can
even do it and syndicate it occasionally during the summer,
but then you know it's just part and parcely you
want to you want to play in the bigger space.
That's that's what you gotta do. You got to talk
about mostly the big.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Stuff You've talked a lot about.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I've heard you talk about this and it was brilliant
constructing a show sort of like there's a tree that
you're creating and then there are sort of branches that
come off of, but you always sort of have that
tree explain to people, like what your philosophy is.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
There in My philosophy for twenty years has always been
when a hurricane hits, the Weather Channel drops all the
rest of its new its weather coverage. They talk about
only the hurricane. MSNBC only talked about Trump. Why do
I have to talk about a bunch of stuff. It
(05:48):
doesn't make any sense because when I go to a bar,
a restaurant, a movie theater, at grocery store, nobody asked
me about anything other than NFL, Lebron and major topics.
So I'm a believer in you have to go into
shows with two trees and the trunk is you know, Brady.
If there's a controversy and the trunk of the tree
(06:08):
is Lebron, it's my job to create branches off each
But this idea that you can go into a show
and have twelve topics, those shows don't get ratings when
Lebron goes to the Lakers. If he does, I'm going
to talk about that for three hours, for three straight days.
The key is, can I give you seven branches? Seven
unique angles on it? But you know, the Weather Channel
(06:29):
never has to apologize for staying on storms. Fox and
MSNBC never apologize for staying on Trump. Why do I
have to apologize? Because I don't cover regular season baseball,
which nobody wants to talk about.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So how much time do you have to spend thinking
about what those seven branches are going to be?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
All day? To my life? I do two and a
half hours of prep every day, which is you know,
three hour show, two and a half hours of prep.
And I get in the car going home and keep
a notepad with me at all times, and you know,
two or three times during the course of a day
if something pops in my head down and you know,
it doesn't mean I'm obsessing about it, but I always
keep a pin in my pocket or near me, so
(07:07):
if something pops into my head and I'm like, that's
an interesting branch of that. But it's actually made my
job easier over time because I don't cover forty eight
college football teams. I keep my eye on about eight.
And I don't cover every NFL team. I keep my
eye about ten. I keep my eye about six NBA
teams and about twelve players. And it's an easier way
(07:27):
to do it. And this idea that you touch all
the bases, it's just not true. Television is redundant and
it's repetition. That's just the reality of the business. That's
what it is. Weather Channel, Fox, MSNBC. I think one
of the problems with ESPN now Chad, they don't know
what they are. Are you doing journalism? Are you doing opinion.
(07:50):
Are you doing highlights at Fox Sports one? We do
strong opinions on a small number of topics and we
should never apologize for it.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
All right, So that is a great transition to gambling,
because you and I have talked about this a bunch.
You started doing gambling on your radio show Wrong before
anybody else was doing it, and you spoke about it.
You're going to make picks, You're going to have people
on who are going to talk about it. Then we
did it on the TV show, and you've continued to
(08:20):
do it at sort of in your new role at Fox,
your relatively new role. What do you think happens to
your show and what do you think happens to the
media writ large when gambling becomes a much more popular thing.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
You know, I have a theory on this, and I'm
going to throw it to you. I think there's going
to be a lot of mistakes made. So even when
I do Blazing five, I've always tried to make it entertaining.
I want it to be good TV before it's good gambling.
Now I want to get my picks right, don't get
me wrong. I want to go three and two or
four and one every week and I take pride. I've
(08:59):
never been fifty five percent. I did have one great
year I was like sixty two. But I try to
be in that fifty five to sixty one percent, and
I feel very If I go three and two every week,
I'm I think that's about as good as a schmuck
like me can do. And I do my homework on
the picks. But I think there's gonna be a lot
of mistakes made. I think people are going to forget
a tenant of television, even the Weather Channel. Okay, let's
(09:24):
go to let's go to the Weather Channel. The most
popular person on the Weather Channel Jim Cantore because he's
the most entertaining, and even on Fox News, which does
harsh criticism, Bill O'Reilly was the most popular because the
show had the most little goofy crazy things in it.
Best word of the day, funny arguments. When you do
(09:44):
these gambling shows, they've got to be good television first. Okay,
don't give me numbers, nerds, give me good TV people
who who get the numbers, because the gamblers going to
watch the stuff regardless. A golfer is gonna watch golf
regardless when golf pops is when they have Tiger when
(10:06):
they have a TV star. So when these shows come out,
everybody's going to be into them. Numbers numbers, numbers, numbers.
The winner will be the the wildly entertaining TV personality
who can figure out the numbers and talk so the
layman can get it and guys like you can respect it.
That will be the key in this space, not getting
(10:29):
the hardcore numbers guy, getting the guy that's funny, smart
and does get the numbers. And that's my belief ten
years will look back that the companies that go into
really like you know, super uber heavy gaming expert over
entertaining person who can talk gaming, they will lose. You
(10:52):
still have to entertain people. How's that our theory?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
How long I like? I like the theory. Leave in
the theory. I'm trying to execute on.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
The theory with what we're doing Action Network and you're
you know, by the way, everyone's listening to the podcast
Actionnetwork dot Com. Go to the Action Network, to the
buffet page on iTunes. You subscribe, you rate, you review,
you unsubscribe, you resubscribe. Let's push this puppy. That's all
we can do is push. But uh yeah, I agree
with you. It's what I've always believed when I was
(11:25):
doing it at ESPN, and now that we're doing it here,
we're hiring people who know how to translate and keep
people entertained and educate.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
You know, we're putting cheese on the broccoli. You know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Well, that's why our Sunday show worked because it was
entertaining first, and then give you a real, real data.
We used to keep your picks to the end, so
it was funny, it was goofy, we laughed, we had cartoons. Yeah,
but in the end we got this really smart guy, Chad,
And even with the sense of humor, you gave us
real data. And so you know, the other thing is
(11:59):
I've always thought that I'm best served as a liison
between people like you who are really smart and the public.
I don't want to be as First of all, I
couldn't be as smart as you. But I don't want
to be an expert in gambling. What I want to
be is no enough. I want to be able to
talk a little bit of your language. But I also
(12:21):
when I talk to you, Chad, want to say something
that you go, God, that is such a that is
such a mark because I got to be a dope.
I got to be closer to be an adope than
an expert, because I am the public. I am the consumer.
So when I would bring you on the show and
there were five picks, and two of them, You're like,
that's a really good that's pretty good, and then two
(12:42):
of them, I was like, who, you're a mark, and
then one of them. We can go back and forth.
But I've always felt my job in this gambling stuff,
I'll be the mark. I want to be able to
talk a little bit of gambling lexicon, but I don't
want to become come across as expert, because I don't
think that's any fun for the consumer and the audience
they want to play. I want them to feel like
they're kind of me, where they think they know a
(13:03):
little bit more than they do, but they're certainly not
an expert.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I will say the most fun on the show is
always when you would give me an opinion that I
thought was just so awful, and I would tell you
how awful it was, your face and your eyes like
would contort into this look and like watta would start
yelling in the background, and also everyone in the control
room would start yelling, and I'm like, I'm thinking, like,
(13:28):
oh my god, that is a face that I don't
think I could ever make.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
That's like a Jim Carrey face right there, right, you
know what?
Speaker 4 (13:35):
To me? The fun in it, And I've been doing
the blazing five thing forever, the fun gambling, which is
really cool. I always learned something. I always learn something
from a sharp. You're a sharp, and it's it's amazing
my instincts. I have two or three believe the only
sport I ever really care about betting would be NFL.
I've got a few bowl games, but mostly the NFL.
(13:57):
And I've always had two or three theories and they've
served me well. Like, well, my first theory is if
a team that was humiliated, if a team has a
capable quarterback, I'm talking about you know, like about eighteen
teams in the league, if they get humiliated on national TV,
take them the next week. Because it's not college football
where you get humiliated because you lack personnel. Teams are injured,
(14:20):
teams aren't prepared, the game plan doesn't work. If a
big band gets humiliated, if a Matt Ryan gets humiliated,
always always look for that number the minute it comes
out the following week because the public sells very quickly
on big TV games. If a team looks like crap,
I'm mind that football, the public's off them, but that
team usually comes back and plays their ass off. So
(14:42):
that's just been one of my goofy theories forever and
it made me nothing. But I have two or three
little theories and that's just one of them.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You almost nailed the theory. You almost got it exactly right.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Kay Tonaler.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
The big team, the big.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Team that gets killed on national television, and you know
the public is going to be betting against them, and
that you got it almost there. And then at the
very end you're like, and you know that team is
going to come back strong because they got humiliated.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
That's not why you bet the team.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
You bet the team because the bookmakers are going to
overcompensate because they know how they can set the line
and they can fade that team in a way that
makes it much more of an advantage for the sharp
betters to bet on that team, because the pointspread is
not going to be as much value on the on
the favorite in that particular in that particular spot.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
That's why you do it.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
It's not because you think they're going to be more motivated,
it's because the value is going to be in the pointspread.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
It's priced better.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Let me think of my other big theory I use.
That's one of the Oh, here's the other one is
that that's my first one. Good look very hard at
teams that got crossed the week before, as long as
they have a capable quarterback. The second thing is there's
always one really double digit line every week, and I
immediately take it off the board. That's the one game
(16:00):
I refuse to bet. I just take it off the
word because they're trap bets, and I hate betting a
game where I know I have to root for an
inferior product. I'm not going to root for a thirteen
point dog to hit a field goal late, so I
always take the thirteen and a half points bread. I'm like,
I don't want to watch that game, and I don't
(16:21):
want to have to ever ever watch a crappy team
hopefully cover back door. So my two rules, take a
good team that gets smoked and just take the big
double digit number and throw it away. I review. Now
that's a bad because the truth is the underdog historically
generally covers over twelve points right, Yes, yeah, I should.
(16:44):
That'd be the first I bet. Some one is the
one I always find it as a trap bet.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
First of all, I gave you like a golden nugget
to elevate your first theory, and you just glossed over it.
Move down to the second one is if I as
if I hadn't even said anything, then get involved in
the conversation.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
No, your first your first one was right. I consumed
your take, and you were right, and I just promptly
moved and segue to a second take. I didn't belittle it.
I simply consumed it and acknowledged that your your acumen's
much greater than mine.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I appreciate the consumption I do.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
The second one is interesting because you're right, You're only
like to me, those are always the games that I
look at first, Like I'm gonna look at that double
digit spread.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I'm gonna see that even though.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
It's a double digit spread, eighty percent of the money
is still going to come in on that favorite. And
I am absolutely one hundred percent gonna bet on that
double digit dog. It's like for years, you know, we
used to talk about this show, and like every single
week we would do this. On the show, we would
talk about the Jaguars. The Jaguars are twelve point underdogs today.
(17:54):
The Jaguars are too touched on underdogs today, and every
single week you'd be like, how could I take the Jaguars.
I'm like, everybody who's a wise guy is taking the
Jaguars because historically that's where the value is going to be.
That's just it's Covering two touchdowns in the NFL is
a really hard thing to do. It's like covering twenty
eight points in college football.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Yeah, then I'm stuck watching Blake Bortles three years ago
trying to beat Pittsburgh. I just hate watching that. That's
another reason I don't but underdogs in college football. I
hate rooting for crap. I hate having my money on crap.
That's my dad's stockbroker advice. I don't. I like buying excellence,
(18:33):
I like watching excellence. I hate betting on crap and
hoping crap is just good enough to cover. I hate that.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
See, but I think that is a particular mindset of yours,
as someone who you like sports, but you are also practical,
and you think about everything we do from a consumerism
perspective and as a product. Right, the way you frame
your shows, whether it's television or radio, all of the
(19:02):
businesses that you're invested in, you think about. It's a
very clear sort of consumer service oriented relationship. So you
think to yourself, I wouldn't put on crap. No one's
going to want crap from me. So it discussed you
to have to have to put forth effort to watch
(19:22):
crap or potentially lose money on crap. I think that
is an entire sort of you are offended by that sensibility.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
That's right. That doesn't make it a smart betting move.
My mom said something to me thirty years ago by
my dad. She said, your dad's not really and I
don't even know where this came from, but she goes,
your dad's not really a quantity guy. He's a quality guy.
And she said your dad had three suits. They were gorgeous.
He never believed in having ten average suits. And we
just got into the discussion. She goes, your dad had
(19:49):
three cars in his life. He lived to be seventy five.
He had three cars in his life. He was never
Your dad believed in spartan furniture, one nice house, cup,
nice suits. He wasn't a big consumer. He just believed in,
you know, go on two vacations a year that are great,
not four that are average. And so I think I
got that a little bit from my dad. I'm not
(20:09):
a stuff guy like you know. A prime example is
I'd never I try not to go on Twitter too
much except for to down to retweet stuff. I've already
done edited versions of my TV show or radio show
because I think. I don't think most consumers are on Twitter.
My friends aren't on Twitter. The media is, so I
think it's just a lot of noise with very little impact.
(20:30):
I always believe simple in a more complicated world, simplicity
makes me happier. Like the world offers you a million choices,
that's just more anxiety. I still have a peanut butter
and jelly sandwich four days a week when I go
home after work. Like the more complicated the world gets,
the simpler I.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Get peanut butter and jelly every Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
I mean, I just it's the same crap everybody. Oh,
I gotta kale this, and I gotta kale that. I've
never eaten fewer things than I eat now, and there's
never been more choices. I think all I think choice
is equal anxiety, and I don't like anxiety, so I
talk fewer topics. I eat eight to twelve things on
(21:15):
a repeat basis. I go to by the way, I
have a vacation home. I mostly go to it only
maybe one exception a year. My life gets simpler the
more stuff I have around me. I don't even know
how I got off into this tangent, but that's hell.
I don't even know where. This is just the way
that my show is. I just start rambling. I don't
even know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
What else do you? What else are you eating? Other
than peanut butter and jelly?
Speaker 4 (21:39):
I have oatmeal every morning with peanut butter and a
kale shake.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
So do I, by the way, oatmeal and peanut butter
every day.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Yep. I have a soup for lunch, mostly beans. I
have a piece of fish or a piece of meat
every night with a salad, one cocktail, watch a little
sports bed, rinse and repeat. That's my life's I'm a
very boring guy, Casley mixing this this. I'm a very
boring boring I'd be there's a lot of jobs i'd
(22:06):
be terrible at.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
You're at the pinnacle of your career. This is when
you should be going out blowing it all. Like your
kids are getting older, You've like got a nice, comfortable life.
You should not be living the life sort of a
monastic lifestyle.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
I know, Listen, I'm not gonna say I've never fantasized
about wild, crazy lifestyle things. But that's just not who
I am. It's just not my DNA. So and I
also think you start believing the hype fly in private,
you start going to bougie and I think you lose yourself.
And so I tell my wife this all the time.
(22:46):
Is I don't want to I don't want to be private.
I don't want to be this. This, this be among
the people relate to people. Media people make a lot
of money. They put big fences up. I have neighbors
jammed all over me. I'm at the dog park every morning.
I think you can lose yourself very easily the richer
you get, because the richer you get to let you know,
you can have people do stuff for you. Like I
(23:06):
go to the grocery store every day every day. I
know people that don't refuse to go to the grocery store. Ah,
I'm gonna have it delivered. I want to go there
every day again. I don't even know how why I'm
talking about this.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
I'm just talking oat Wheetle's not going to buy itself,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Okay, I got my wife's texting me here. You got
anything else?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Milman? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I actually have the actual question, which is, like, all right,
if you played the segment you bet your life, you
talked about your dad. I know how important like family
was to you growing up. What was the biggest rich
you took in your life?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And what happened?
Speaker 4 (23:36):
I left college early that twelve credit shy. I got
the phone call. I went to the Baseball winter meetings,
got home and the Las Vegas Stars Don Logan called
me and said, do you want a job? And I
looked at my mom and I said, I'm twelve credit shy.
What should I do? And she said, I'm not going
to tell you. She said, you're going to tell yourself
what to do. And I left without a degree. And
(23:58):
it was the best move I ever made. I bet
on myself. I didn't think I was going to get
that opportunity to go from college to a triple A announcing job.
I mean, guys are in this business ten years before
they get to Triple A baseball, and it was the
best Triple A city. It was Vegas. So I bet
on myself and I said, I'm going to leave college
early twelve credit shy and I'm going to go sell
(24:18):
minor league baseball and I'm going to do an inning
of play by play. And I just bet on myself
and it was the best move I ever made. I
parlayed that into a TV job. I parlayed that into
a TV career in a radio career, and it really
came down to a very simple thing. I just didn't
think I would get that good of an offer at
(24:40):
my age and my lack of experience, and I thought,
I can always go back to college. Las Vegas is
never going to offer me a Triple A play by
play job. This is usually end up in like Amarillo
or Midland, Texas. I'm like, I got to go for it.
And it was a big risk, Like a lot of
people are like, what are you doing. You don't have
a degree, and I was like, dude, I can get
(25:02):
a degree later, I can't get the Vegas job later.
And it turned out to be some of my best
friends or in that town. And you know, I don't
consider myself a huge risk taker, but that was a risk.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Well, I would say you are a huge risk taker,
because when is the next time you didn't bet on
yourself that You're like, that was a screw up. I
should have totally done that.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
I think it did something to me. It gave me confidence.
And at the time I didn't have a ton It
was just a goofy college kid and I didn't really
know what I was doing. And then when I succeeded,
there's a domino effect like, hey, I can do this again.
And I did it about four or five more times
in my life where you know, like I left ESPN,
they offered me a bunch of money. It was the
big network, and I went to a startup and it's
(25:43):
been great. It's like almost like playing the US Opening Golf.
You want to start really good on Thursday, because it
lends itself to a good Friday, a good Saturday. If
you really go into the tank on if you're shooting
nine over on Thursday, you're screwed. And I'm a big
believer in momentum, and it gave me kind of life
professional moment that it's been going ever since.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Well, I know what it's like to leave ESPN and
go work at a startup.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Yeah. But by the way, when you start kicking butt
here and you're already are, you'll this will not be
the last place in the world you work. My wife
always tells me that now. She's like, you're a young
fifty four. She goes, you think it's seventy four, you're
gonna be doing the herds. She goes, proy not And
I'm like, yeah, you're right, Py.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Not seventy four.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
You're just gonna be hanging out in your house, eating
no meal in kale all day.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Wondering, wondering maybe I should have bet on those underdogs
because I have.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
So much more money. All Right, Melman, I gotta get
out of here. I gotta go on prep for another
one of the shows I'm on.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
All right, Thanks for coming on, brother, I'll talk to
you later.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Chad Melman. Ladies and gentlemen support his Consent.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Action Network reminds you please gamble responsibly. If you or
someone you care about has a gambling problem, help is
available twenty four to seven at one eight hundred Gambler
her