July 8, 2025 • 31 mins
Fresh from their respective vacations, Action Network hosts Chad Millman and Simon Hunter return to cover the latest headlines from the world of sports betting. This includes a spate of recent scandals involving players in the NBA and Major League Baseball, potential changes looming from the Big Beautiful Bill, and much more. #Volume
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Favorites, the podcast, part of the Volume
Podcast Network. I I'm Chad Moman of the Action Network.
This week, at last, we are back together again. Let's
welcome in my co host Michael Bandon. Michael Padre might
be a f professional better sign in Hunter, And oh
so I am in, Chad.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
How are we doing?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Listen? I'm so excited to see your face. Even though
we chatted a little bit while you were in England
and I was in Chicago for my father's eightieth birthday,
there's so many stories to tell about that. I missed you, buddy.
I miss seeing your face, hearing your voice. How are
you good?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
No, it's good, good little break, you know, nice hearing
from fans that missed me as well. It's nice to
know I'm loved and people still hate Chad, so that's
always a good feeling.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
But nobody, I got no messages. Did anyone miss me?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, but no, they missed the show. And just like
everyone else, a lot going on, and uh, you know,
excited for football obviously, but anytime me and Chack can
get a little break, I think we're excited for it
because obviously we spent a lot of time together so
it's nice to miss you as well, Chad. So it
was a welcome break and yeah, I sent you pictures. Obviously,
went to England Sea family got to go up to
(01:30):
Scotland with my mom and dad, which was a really
cool experience. My thought came over to Edinburgh and yeah,
I'm not the biggest golf fan or whiskey fan, but
it's intoxicating. Once you get to Scotland you experience it
like going to Saint Andrew's. You can walk the course
on Sundays, it's open to the public, a pretty surreal,
(01:52):
pretty surreal you can just walk around on eighteen the
bagpipes are playing in the background. It was just a
really cool, really cool, what you know, thing to see.
And yeah, Scotland. The joke if you're from England is
there's not much up there, and I guess that's true
to British people, but to someone from America it's it's
(02:12):
really beautiful and unique. Play Scotland. So if I had
the money and the time, I would retire and just
drink my way and play golf across Scotland. It's that
it's that type of country. So yeah, I really enjoyed
my time away time away in Scotland.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm not a huge drinker, as you know, but when
I do drink, there are two things I'll drink. One
a Repisodo tequila. Two lag of Ulin Scotch, the pediest,
(02:46):
most Scottish Scotch I can get. That's what I want.
It's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, and again it's it's all over right. I I
try to get at when I first got think that
I tried to get out when I first landed, and
I literally burned myself off for the rest of the trip.
Like I got so hungover I didn't want to drink
again for about two three days. And I think that's
how it goes, especially you get old. I mean, I
know I'm old, but in my mind, you know, everyone
still feels young at heart. Hangovers hit like a motherfucker
(03:17):
in your mid thirties. It really is. You drink hard
liquor like that, it really hits. But yeah, there was
a couple of times, like we went to a pub
that was from the seventeen hundreds, like it was built
before America was America, and like you just to them,
that's that's that's pretty old, but not that old. So
when you're in history like that where it's just funny
coming from America. Yeah, I'm right there with you, brother.
(03:39):
It's it's just a vibe there, like if you're going
to drink anything, right, Scotch, whiskey, bourban, all of it.
They're drinking it and I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
You just say, hungover and feeling it. So, you know,
I live in a house with an eighteen year old
who graduated high school a month ago and has an
incredible group of friends and a great girlfriend and is
going to college in the fall. So and is like
(04:12):
working a fun summer job running the fryer at the
local pool club with all of his buddies, and every
day is just comedy and fun. So the other night,
my wife and I one forty five in the morning,
hear what sounds like somebody killing an animal in my
(04:38):
son's bathroom.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Oh no, he had one of those nice justn.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
And and my my wife. This is how we handle
it differently. My wife is worried, she's up. She when
he is in bed trying to sleep, She's leaving him
gatorade by his bed. I'm not even moving, I'm not
even thinking. I'm like, you do it once, you do it. Twice.
(05:06):
You learn your limits. It's good practice for college. You
figure out what you can do. Like, he's not the
first person that this has happened to. He's not the
last person this will happen to. I see him the
next day and he's just like, it's just the spins.
It's just the spins when you're lying there. I felt
so bad for him, but I was proud of him
(05:27):
because he got up and he went to the club,
the pool club, and he worked a fryer, and he
was back there in that heat, and it is it
is no freaking joke. And by the way, he did this.
On the night of July fourth, I had been got
up at six am, took the train from Hertford to
(05:49):
the city and then the subway from Penn Station to
Coney Island, the last stop on the subway line. Because
I went to the Nathan's hot Dog Eating Contest. Because
you know, I'm writing this book and one of the
people that I'm profiling in the book, who was a
huge professional better one of the best NFL prop betters
(06:11):
in the world, he also loves to bet the hot
Dog contest. So I wanted to be with him when
he's betting the hot dog contest, and so I went
out there. I got there at you know, ten thirty
in the morning, just as Mickey Suda was about to start.
She won her competition, but she went way under created
(06:31):
a little bit of havoc, a little bit of chaos
for the way my guy was betting and how he
was thinking what that portended for the male competition. But dude,
it was a freaking It was a freaking blast to
go to that thing and be with someone who's really
thinking about it from betting opportunity. And what was interesting
(06:51):
is to me, like we all laugh about it and
you say the Nathan's hot dog eating contest, and it
just makes you smile. But he looked it is such
a pure handicapping exercise. It's not something you can model.
It's only something that you can figure out through research, instinct,
study history, trying to find interesting patterns. Like he looked
(07:13):
at it more as a pure handicapping experience as anything else.
To me, I love that. I just thought that was
a total blast to experience that and have that unique
of a perspective.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, incredibly sharp contest. Obviously everyone knows the hot dog
buns a big thing we all bet on hot dog
everything like that. I mean me and you talk a
little bit about how much they care about the buns
of the hot dogs. What was it? Chestnuts seventy one
and a half, open at sixty nine and a half,
landed on seventy and a half. So yeah, it's one
of the more professional focused things in the summer, and
(07:49):
obviously fine edges. But I've had obviously, you know, that's
all my bucklest I want to go to it. I
just had it insane forty eight hours of flying red
eye to Vegas, flew back last night, just meeting with people,
just so much going on. When I got back from England,
it was like all the shit really hit the fan.
I got back basically July first, and I was playing
(08:10):
on going out there. I think Chad I didn't really
talked about the show a little bit, but I was
gonna enter the World Chairs of Poker.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Have we talked about this, Yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
It was just gonna be if I was running hot
and i'd been playing really good. I I really started
training hard in March, and I really was running hot
in probably till the end of April early May, and
then I went very cold. I just was not not
reading well before I went away, and I was hoping
when I came back, maybe if I was on the
right mind, I was going to go there, play small
a couple of tournaments, and then if I did well,
(08:39):
I was just gonna stay and do a couple of
shows from there and try to obviously make the money.
But I got there, there's just too much going on
me Chad, I obviously going about to dive into it.
But yeah, yeah, just a world win. I'm hoping next
year I can do what She's a poker, So I know.
I talked a couple of fans who went out there.
I mean obviously met up with a couple of people
when I was there. Always always down to get a
drink with different fans that reach out. But yeah, when
(09:03):
I was there watching the World Series, a ton of
regret that I didn't enter it, just because how much
Funnel looks. But like we're about to dive into there's
just so much shit going on in the sports betting on.
What I just really was my mind is the mind's
not right to be doing that kind of stuff. And
as we're going to dive into there's just too much
going on for me to focus on that. So, yeah,
it's gonna be back in Jersey. I'm happy back from vacation.
(09:24):
I'm hoping to chill just for a week or two
and catch my breath there. Chet.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Well, look, I would argue that while you were away
included some of the most consequential and I think impactful
moments in the betting space since legalization in twenty eighteen.
If you are a professional better, and avid better, recreational better,
even a casual better, all of this impacts you because
(09:48):
there has just been a cascade of laws and taxes
and changes to the industry that are independent of each other,
but when you add them all up, impact literally everybody.
If you are betting five dollars a game in New
Jersey or Illinois, all of a sudden, you are going
(10:09):
to find that operators like DraftKings and FanDuel are going
to be charging you a fifty cent per bet fee
because now the taxes for those operators have been raised
in certain states. There have been changes in federal law,
included in the Big Beautiful Bill, which you are a follower,
if you are a follower of gambling Twitter, you have
seen this all over where for years and Simon will
(10:31):
talk about this. You could deduct one hundred percent of
your losses from your taxes. So if you made one
hundred thousand dollars betting, and you lost ninety thousand dollars betting,
you could deduct that ninety thousand dollars, and what you
ultimately made and pay taxes on was ten thousand dollars.
(10:54):
Included in the Big Beautiful Bill now is a provision
which is legal now. It is a law that you
can only deduct ninety percent of your losses, so you
might end up paying on what's essentially phantom income. That
has been a huge conversation. That could be millions and
millions of dollars for gamblers. The provision is estimated to
(11:19):
earn the to create one point one billion dollars in
revenue for the government over the next several years. There
have been two betting scandals involving players that we are
going to talk about, both in the NBA and in
Major League Baseball, and sort of the social media reaction
to those has been fascinating because we are in a
(11:39):
time where anybody can be Sherlock Holmes if they have
a TikTok account and access to video and a little
bit of information and a lot of speculation. There are
upstarts in the form of prediction markets like Kelshi, Polymarket
sport trade now posing real threats to the current status
of sports betting and provide new options in sports betters,
(12:01):
all of which becomes more relevant with the Big Beautiful
Bill and increase in taxes and the opportunities for sports
betters to play in these markets where it might be
a little bit more equitable and generally simon, I think
there's just growing hostility in the sports betting space. It's
(12:22):
from operators towards professional betters who are consistently getting banned
because operators don't want to take their money. It's regulators
towards the operators who are trying to find more way
to raise money, so they're increasing taxes. It's the federal
government towards betters with this big beautiful bill. It's society
(12:42):
against the idea of sports betting. Bob Costas was on
Meet the Press this past weekend talking about the ills
of sports betting wild wild times. We're going to talk
about all of that from his point of view as
a pro mine, as a journalist who is reporting on
a lot of this and it's all in my head
right now. For this book I am writing. The prediction
(13:05):
marks especially are fascinating to me, and to me that
deserves a much longer, broader conversation, deeper conversation. So on
Thursday show, Simon and I will speak with Chris Gerlocker,
who's a reporter for Prediction News who has been covering
prediction markets for a long time. He's going to join
(13:26):
and I would say that since I've been reporting this book,
the influences of these businesses has become an increasingly important
narrative in our space, and their sort of disruption that
is happening and how these things are being framed is
(13:47):
so big that it is akin to the way people
talked about Uber, the way people talked about social media. Calshi,
one of the prediction markets, the one that is legal
in the United States, just raised a hundred and eighty
five million dollars is now value at two billion dollars. Polymarket,
another one which is not legal in the United States,
(14:07):
raised another amount of money. It's worth a billion dollars
in valuation. So there's a lot to discuss in this space.
We'll unpack all of that with Chris on Thursday, Simon.
I mean, it's fucking Midsummer and there's not supposed to
(14:28):
be anything going on, and all of this is going on.
Here's the first thing I want to ask you about.
If you don't mind, unless you unless you feel passionate
about one of the topics, I want to ask you
about one of the topics.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, it's through all of them, all right.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
So the first one is the betting scandal, right because
with the players, we're talking about Malik Leap Beasley for
the Detroit Pistons and being under investigation for betting, and
then Luis Ortiz, the Guardian's pitcher, who was under investigation
(15:06):
for gambling. This one was broken by Ken Rosenthal at
the Athletic and then David Purdam and Jeff Passon at
ESPN advanced it because they identified that there were two
pitches that or Tees had thrown that were specifically under investigation,
and with Beasley, it's prop bets that were specifically under investigation.
(15:28):
And to me, it was fascinating to go on social
media and see the video evidence of the two pitches
that or Teas was under investigation for. What are your
thoughts generally on these kinds of scandals and how they
are impacting the space.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I mean, I have a lot of opinions on it,
Chad disturb from the top. It's two different sports, which
is a big deal obviously because that happened around the
same exact time ortiz One. I don't think he can
blame on the interpreter. This is very, very noticeable he
did something in a game because I think it's what
they're breaking down the video. If I'm not wrong, Chad
(16:11):
is it's the first pitch right, yep, and very easy
for these books to track. So I say it all
the time. People don't understand how how much there was
in scandal, players tanking games, throwing boxing matches, all this
stuff from the very beginning of sports, when betting came around.
This stuff has been around forever. That is why to
(16:34):
us people in the know, especially Chad, it's so great
that the legalization of sports have happened because of these
exact things. They can catch these people now that they
try to taint our games that we love and we again,
it would ruin so much to know that these things
were happening, especially at the highest level. Now, lucky for us,
these things keep happening to players that again they're not
(16:54):
nobody's I mean again the o tiny thing that's for
another day. But it's like these other people they're not
it's not like they're the highest of highs, but they
are names in these athletes in these sports that are
pretty well known. Like Beasley was about apparently was about
to get paid for now. Yeah, now I was looking
at jail time possibly, So it's a really big deal.
(17:16):
So is someone that this is my life, this is
what I work in. I love it because it's like
keep it clean, keep it all above board. And at
the end of the day, the more you learn about
the stuff, it all comes back to debt and owing people.
And that's the scary part is these people get in
trouble for different things. Maybe they have their own gambling
addictions themselves, and they get to these holes. So yeah,
(17:37):
just at the end of the day, it's all sad
because it's like lives ruined, millions and million dollars cost
to them family. Their families are ruined in certain ways
as well, so brutal. But the things we have in
line it makes it today much better product betting on
sports than it was even say ten years ago. It's
so much cleaner protected than it used to be. I'm
(17:57):
such a fan that they keep catching these people. They're
with AI or whatever it is, these algorithms, they keep
catching these people with just a really big fan of
it and props to the people you do the work.
It's like it's not only as a real journalism, it's
real work by these sports books catching these people doing
this stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I don't know exactly what alerted people to anything related
to Beasley and what that investigation.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
It's always going to be the money coming in on
the bets chat.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Right, But I don't mean like how they tracked it
right with ortes. There's an organization called IC three sixty
and they do global monitoring of markets and are in
regular communication with the operators and with the leagues to
(18:44):
police what's happening. And I see three sixty is the
one that recognized what was going on with orties and
then alerted the authorities that needed to be known, that
needed to know about what was happening. So that's an
important part of this that has been going on for
(19:05):
thirty years right, and thirty years ago the operators were
regularly talking to the leagues themselves. That's how scandals like
the Arizona State College basketball betting scandal came to be known,
is the operators recognized strange betting patterns and were able
(19:31):
to shut down the betting and then communicate to the
n c DOUBLEA about what was happening. Now there are
global organizations that monitor this as it's become bigger, and
as the leagues themselves have just so much more at
stake and at risk because of the legalization of sports
(19:51):
betting and because of the stances they've taken. I had
a conversation with someone I'm talking to at the NFL
for this book, and we were talking about sort of
the threat to integrity of the game, and I made
the point that, as you just said, Simon, there have
(20:12):
been betting scandals as long as there have been sports.
Literally Major League Baseball, the National League was founded in
eighteen seventy six. In eighteen seventy seven, there was a
betting scandal, and Matt Mitchell and I talked about this
on sort of the Great Moments in Gambling podcast. The
Pittsburgh Steelers, the New York Giants, the Cleveland Browns, the
(20:37):
now Arizona Cardinals, the New York Yankees, all founded by
professional betters or professional bookmakers, because those are the people
who were willing to take the biggest risks and had
cash at hand and liked sports. When all these things
were becoming a big deal, every sports betting scandal has
(20:58):
been followed by increased viewership, increased rights, increased audience, increased interest.
I think the sports betting scandals are terrible. I don't
think they're going to be the death knell for sports. Really.
What worries me for sports and sports betting is violence
(21:22):
against the players, because I do think that's going to
be something that we saw with Lance mccullors, we saw
Tyrese Haliburton talked about it last year. When players have
to start getting security, when fans can't control themselves, when
there is a sort of you forget who you are,
where you are, or even worse, you didn't know to
(21:44):
begin with, and you are blaming the players for your losses,
That to me is a really frightening development that seem
to be much less relevant or obvious before sports betting
became legal and before the number of people betting hit increased.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
That's fair, but I mean it's a that's always been around,
right fanatic fan, I mean that's always been I mean
they what was that movie they made Back of the
Day now Alpatune, I forget who it was. He was
a crazy fan.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Oh I don't know it.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Oh no, you would love it. It's terrible, but it's a
good movie just about how crazy fans are. You literally
capture as a player pills them hostage. But yeah, it's
it's always been there, Chad, I agree with you. Like obviously,
a guy yelling at a basketball player about losing his
ten dollars parlay because they didn't hit some shot. It's
it's it's a it's a bad part of it. But
like I told you from the get go, we're just
(22:43):
in the early days for it. So you're always gonna
have these people like Bob Costas or wherever coming out
and talking about how bad it is and the negative
stuff of sports betting. There's always bena be a couple
of bad eggs. It's just it's just the way it is.
It's the same thing we talk about with alcohol and
cigarettes and things like that, where it's freedom of choice.
We know it's not the best thing, but obviously if
(23:04):
people can keep their shit together, keep their cool, it's
a great thing for the general public to be able
to do to you know, enjoy life. And it's just
another thing part of it. But yeah, the going on
social media and telling people are gonna kill their families.
I'm happy they catch and prosecute these people, right, That's
that's another good thing that they're doing now, is these
assholes aren't just getting away with making these outlangers threats, Like,
(23:24):
there are consequences to these certain words you say to people.
So I'm with you. It's it's obviously the black stain
on what we do is these people that go either
way to like you know, say horrible things. Mean you
are part of it, Like, this is part of our job.
We get the stuff people say to us. It's it's
insane where I just know me personally, no one would
ever say that to my face. So it is it
(23:47):
is a weird thing that we are involved in this
world we're in. But again, I love it. It's it's
all weird and unique in its own way. But I
wouldn't change it. Obviously there's things that would change to it,
but overall, it's what the craziness is what makes it work, Chad,
So I'm with you, though, it's it's when you hear
those stories, it's it's just horrible when you read that
stuff about these players, what they go through with those fans.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Think about you, Simon, people say mean things to you
and they like you. They don't even like me that stuff.
Think about what I get.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, I can only imagine.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So I also found it really fascinating the way people
on TikTok, Instagram wherever were speculating about Malik Beasley. They
didn't even know what he was being investigated for, but
they were taking out of context clips and saying, look
(24:42):
at how obvious it is that he was fixing this game.
To me, that felt totally irresponsible and tasteless. And that
to me, whereas the artis stuff you could find the
video evidence, that to me felt like the flip side
under belly sensational idiocy of what happens on social media
(25:09):
when you are connecting one plus one and getting three.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, that's what it is. Robert de Niro, the fan,
That's what it was. I was trying to I coudn't
even look it up. I was like, what the hell
was the name of that movie? I coudn't even think
it was. The lead actor is Rob Deer a fan.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Game.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You hear it, So it's tough push right an insane
fan and it's like we're talking about here, Chad.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
There's just Wesley Snipes.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yes, yes, So they're just they're gonna be out there.
What can you do. It's it's part of what It's
part of the game. And the most shocking thing too,
again I don't spend much time on social media, was
these poker players talking about well, we're about to talk
about this big beautiful bill, yes, and the hate and
disdain they would get from people, and it's like, it's
(26:04):
just bizarre. It is bizarre. It's a bizarre world we
live in. So yeah, we should definitely dive into that.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Well, let's talk about it. So the Big Beautiful Bill
was passed, and in the moments before it was passed,
say twenty four hours or so, you started seeing the
news popping up via Twitter, largely about changes to how
professional betters could file their taxes. And it used to
(26:32):
be you could take one hundred percent of your losses
and deduct that from your wins that you filed for
simon you filed as a professional better and then all
of a sudden you're getting what basically your salary is
but because gambling is not necessarily the best thing for society,
and because gamblers are not the most sympathetic group, this
(26:56):
was something that through the Finance Committee, had been studied
and then was added to the Senate's big beautiful bill,
and when Congress was going through it, it got through,
and it became a pretty big uproar, not just from
gambling Twitter, but then all of a sudden, the Washington
(27:18):
Post did a story about it. ESPN did a story
about it, The New York Post did a story about it.
Axios did a story about it. It was fascinating to
me of the thousand page bill and all of the
provisions in this bill, including the fact that I believe
there were provisions that made it easier or more cost
effective to get a silencer. This is the one that
(27:43):
bubbled up and became sort of so interesting for people.
From your point of view, Simon, I've basically laid it out.
You can you can only deduct ninety percent of your losses.
Now explain from your point of view you how that
impacts professional betters. And I will say this was such
(28:05):
a cost to lab that already the representative from Las
Vegas has proposed a bill to reverse this and is
already getting support. It needs bipartisan support. I think it
will get it. This doesn't go into effect until the
end of twenty twenty six, so my senses, over the
next eighteen months this might be repealed. But in the
(28:26):
immediate it's something you got to think about. Simon.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, and I could actually take ten to fifteen minutes
on us, but we don't have that much time. And
I'll just say the quick version is it's over. It
just they've made it so that it's impossible to make
a living betting in America legally, so we'll die have
more time in doo, we have more time and to
break it more down. But as right now as it's.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
So hold on, I know Matt Mitchell is pushing us,
but like this is a huge topic. I know, give it,
give it a little back.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Here, I mean, just the basis of it. It's it's
just there's too many moving parts right now. We don't
know what's going to happen right Like what you just said,
it's it's impossible. It's impossible to make a living when
I'm paying for ten percent of my losses. And we
even talked about new Jersey either, like what they're doing
(29:16):
in New Jersey. It's just we're being attacked and I
dripped with you. In America, they will do anything. Our
government will do anything in their power to tax anybody.
But they're rich and this is just another one of
those things. Cause again, yes it's affecting professional betters. We
make a living finding ways around the rules, so this
(29:36):
is not going to affect us in the long term
and anyway other than it's fucking up my life and
maybe don't make me move to fucking England. I don't
want to move to England for six months, but that
might be well my life is because Canada is the
same way. Canada will tax you for being a professional better,
so you know, the only countries that are left, maybe
I'll be in Supermuda for six months, like all the
options of the table. I've been meeting with people for
(29:57):
the last two days about it because it's such a
big deal. And yeah, it's it's blind siding because I
heard whispers, but I didn't think it was real because
it's so stupid and it went through. It's like these
guys just don't know what they're doing. So yeah, chat,
I just it's something we're going to spend a lot
of time home because it's it's one of the more
fascinating stories, like you said, since the legalization of sports
(30:20):
betting in this country, and it's a clear attack on
professional betters and people who make their living beating the casinos.
So that's all I'm going to say at that part.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I do have a theory about this. I want to
leave a little bit of a cliffhanger. If Matt Mitchell
had hair on his head, he'd be pulling it out
right now because he wants us to to save some
of this for part two of this very special podcast episode,
which I will because I do have a theory and
(30:49):
I want to bring it up with our guest, Chris Gerlocker,
who's going to be joining us on Thursday show. So
I want to leave a little bit of that meat
on the bone. So let's just say that we will
return with our next episode of The Favorites Thursday on
the Action Network YouTube page with special guest Chris Gerlocker.
(31:11):
Download us from Spotify, Apple Pods, wherever you get your pods,
Rate review, subscribe, leave us five stars, say whatever you want.
Feedback is a gift Until next time. Love You Action
Network reminds you please gamble responsibly. If you or someone
(31:33):
you care about has a gambling problem, help Us available
twenty four to seven at one eight hundred gambler
Welcome to the Favorites, the podcast, part of the Volume
Podcast Network. I I'm Chad Moman of the Action Network.
This week, at last, we are back together again. Let's
welcome in my co host Michael Bandon. Michael Padre might
be a f professional better sign in Hunter, And oh
so I am in, Chad.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
How are we doing?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Listen? I'm so excited to see your face. Even though
we chatted a little bit while you were in England
and I was in Chicago for my father's eightieth birthday,
there's so many stories to tell about that. I missed you, buddy.
I miss seeing your face, hearing your voice. How are
you good?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
No, it's good, good little break, you know, nice hearing
from fans that missed me as well. It's nice to
know I'm loved and people still hate Chad, so that's
always a good feeling.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
But nobody, I got no messages. Did anyone miss me?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, but no, they missed the show. And just like
everyone else, a lot going on, and uh, you know,
excited for football obviously, but anytime me and Chack can
get a little break, I think we're excited for it
because obviously we spent a lot of time together so
it's nice to miss you as well, Chad. So it
was a welcome break and yeah, I sent you pictures. Obviously,
went to England Sea family got to go up to
(01:30):
Scotland with my mom and dad, which was a really
cool experience. My thought came over to Edinburgh and yeah,
I'm not the biggest golf fan or whiskey fan, but
it's intoxicating. Once you get to Scotland you experience it
like going to Saint Andrew's. You can walk the course
on Sundays, it's open to the public, a pretty surreal,
(01:52):
pretty surreal you can just walk around on eighteen the
bagpipes are playing in the background. It was just a
really cool, really cool, what you know, thing to see.
And yeah, Scotland. The joke if you're from England is
there's not much up there, and I guess that's true
to British people, but to someone from America it's it's
(02:12):
really beautiful and unique. Play Scotland. So if I had
the money and the time, I would retire and just
drink my way and play golf across Scotland. It's that
it's that type of country. So yeah, I really enjoyed
my time away time away in Scotland.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm not a huge drinker, as you know, but when
I do drink, there are two things I'll drink. One
a Repisodo tequila. Two lag of Ulin Scotch, the pediest,
(02:46):
most Scottish Scotch I can get. That's what I want.
It's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, and again it's it's all over right. I I
try to get at when I first got think that
I tried to get out when I first landed, and
I literally burned myself off for the rest of the trip.
Like I got so hungover I didn't want to drink
again for about two three days. And I think that's
how it goes, especially you get old. I mean, I
know I'm old, but in my mind, you know, everyone
still feels young at heart. Hangovers hit like a motherfucker
(03:17):
in your mid thirties. It really is. You drink hard
liquor like that, it really hits. But yeah, there was
a couple of times, like we went to a pub
that was from the seventeen hundreds, like it was built
before America was America, and like you just to them,
that's that's that's pretty old, but not that old. So
when you're in history like that where it's just funny
coming from America. Yeah, I'm right there with you, brother.
(03:39):
It's it's just a vibe there, like if you're going
to drink anything, right, Scotch, whiskey, bourban, all of it.
They're drinking it and I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
You just say, hungover and feeling it. So, you know,
I live in a house with an eighteen year old
who graduated high school a month ago and has an
incredible group of friends and a great girlfriend and is
going to college in the fall. So and is like
(04:12):
working a fun summer job running the fryer at the
local pool club with all of his buddies, and every
day is just comedy and fun. So the other night,
my wife and I one forty five in the morning,
hear what sounds like somebody killing an animal in my
(04:38):
son's bathroom.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Oh no, he had one of those nice justn.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
And and my my wife. This is how we handle
it differently. My wife is worried, she's up. She when
he is in bed trying to sleep, She's leaving him
gatorade by his bed. I'm not even moving, I'm not
even thinking. I'm like, you do it once, you do it. Twice.
(05:06):
You learn your limits. It's good practice for college. You
figure out what you can do. Like, he's not the
first person that this has happened to. He's not the
last person this will happen to. I see him the
next day and he's just like, it's just the spins.
It's just the spins when you're lying there. I felt
so bad for him, but I was proud of him
(05:27):
because he got up and he went to the club,
the pool club, and he worked a fryer, and he
was back there in that heat, and it is it
is no freaking joke. And by the way, he did this.
On the night of July fourth, I had been got
up at six am, took the train from Hertford to
(05:49):
the city and then the subway from Penn Station to
Coney Island, the last stop on the subway line. Because
I went to the Nathan's hot Dog Eating Contest. Because
you know, I'm writing this book and one of the
people that I'm profiling in the book, who was a
huge professional better one of the best NFL prop betters
(06:11):
in the world, he also loves to bet the hot
Dog contest. So I wanted to be with him when
he's betting the hot dog contest, and so I went
out there. I got there at you know, ten thirty
in the morning, just as Mickey Suda was about to start.
She won her competition, but she went way under created
(06:31):
a little bit of havoc, a little bit of chaos
for the way my guy was betting and how he
was thinking what that portended for the male competition. But dude,
it was a freaking It was a freaking blast to
go to that thing and be with someone who's really
thinking about it from betting opportunity. And what was interesting
(06:51):
is to me, like we all laugh about it and
you say the Nathan's hot dog eating contest, and it
just makes you smile. But he looked it is such
a pure handicapping exercise. It's not something you can model.
It's only something that you can figure out through research, instinct,
study history, trying to find interesting patterns. Like he looked
(07:13):
at it more as a pure handicapping experience as anything else.
To me, I love that. I just thought that was
a total blast to experience that and have that unique
of a perspective.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, incredibly sharp contest. Obviously everyone knows the hot dog
buns a big thing we all bet on hot dog
everything like that. I mean me and you talk a
little bit about how much they care about the buns
of the hot dogs. What was it? Chestnuts seventy one
and a half, open at sixty nine and a half,
landed on seventy and a half. So yeah, it's one
of the more professional focused things in the summer, and
(07:49):
obviously fine edges. But I've had obviously, you know, that's
all my bucklest I want to go to it. I
just had it insane forty eight hours of flying red
eye to Vegas, flew back last night, just meeting with people,
just so much going on. When I got back from England,
it was like all the shit really hit the fan.
I got back basically July first, and I was playing
(08:10):
on going out there. I think Chad I didn't really
talked about the show a little bit, but I was
gonna enter the World Chairs of Poker.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Have we talked about this, Yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
It was just gonna be if I was running hot
and i'd been playing really good. I I really started
training hard in March, and I really was running hot
in probably till the end of April early May, and
then I went very cold. I just was not not
reading well before I went away, and I was hoping
when I came back, maybe if I was on the
right mind, I was going to go there, play small
a couple of tournaments, and then if I did well,
(08:39):
I was just gonna stay and do a couple of
shows from there and try to obviously make the money.
But I got there, there's just too much going on
me Chad, I obviously going about to dive into it.
But yeah, yeah, just a world win. I'm hoping next
year I can do what She's a poker, So I know.
I talked a couple of fans who went out there.
I mean obviously met up with a couple of people
when I was there. Always always down to get a
drink with different fans that reach out. But yeah, when
(09:03):
I was there watching the World Series, a ton of
regret that I didn't enter it, just because how much
Funnel looks. But like we're about to dive into there's
just so much shit going on in the sports betting on.
What I just really was my mind is the mind's
not right to be doing that kind of stuff. And
as we're going to dive into there's just too much
going on for me to focus on that. So, yeah,
it's gonna be back in Jersey. I'm happy back from vacation.
(09:24):
I'm hoping to chill just for a week or two
and catch my breath there. Chet.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Well, look, I would argue that while you were away
included some of the most consequential and I think impactful
moments in the betting space since legalization in twenty eighteen.
If you are a professional better, and avid better, recreational better,
even a casual better, all of this impacts you because
(09:48):
there has just been a cascade of laws and taxes
and changes to the industry that are independent of each other,
but when you add them all up, impact literally everybody.
If you are betting five dollars a game in New
Jersey or Illinois, all of a sudden, you are going
(10:09):
to find that operators like DraftKings and FanDuel are going
to be charging you a fifty cent per bet fee
because now the taxes for those operators have been raised
in certain states. There have been changes in federal law,
included in the Big Beautiful Bill, which you are a follower,
if you are a follower of gambling Twitter, you have
seen this all over where for years and Simon will
(10:31):
talk about this. You could deduct one hundred percent of
your losses from your taxes. So if you made one
hundred thousand dollars betting, and you lost ninety thousand dollars betting,
you could deduct that ninety thousand dollars, and what you
ultimately made and pay taxes on was ten thousand dollars.
(10:54):
Included in the Big Beautiful Bill now is a provision
which is legal now. It is a law that you
can only deduct ninety percent of your losses, so you
might end up paying on what's essentially phantom income. That
has been a huge conversation. That could be millions and
millions of dollars for gamblers. The provision is estimated to
(11:19):
earn the to create one point one billion dollars in
revenue for the government over the next several years. There
have been two betting scandals involving players that we are
going to talk about, both in the NBA and in
Major League Baseball, and sort of the social media reaction
to those has been fascinating because we are in a
(11:39):
time where anybody can be Sherlock Holmes if they have
a TikTok account and access to video and a little
bit of information and a lot of speculation. There are
upstarts in the form of prediction markets like Kelshi, Polymarket
sport trade now posing real threats to the current status
of sports betting and provide new options in sports betters,
(12:01):
all of which becomes more relevant with the Big Beautiful
Bill and increase in taxes and the opportunities for sports
betters to play in these markets where it might be
a little bit more equitable and generally simon, I think
there's just growing hostility in the sports betting space. It's
(12:22):
from operators towards professional betters who are consistently getting banned
because operators don't want to take their money. It's regulators
towards the operators who are trying to find more way
to raise money, so they're increasing taxes. It's the federal
government towards betters with this big beautiful bill. It's society
(12:42):
against the idea of sports betting. Bob Costas was on
Meet the Press this past weekend talking about the ills
of sports betting wild wild times. We're going to talk
about all of that from his point of view as
a pro mine, as a journalist who is reporting on
a lot of this and it's all in my head
right now. For this book I am writing. The prediction
(13:05):
marks especially are fascinating to me, and to me that
deserves a much longer, broader conversation, deeper conversation. So on
Thursday show, Simon and I will speak with Chris Gerlocker,
who's a reporter for Prediction News who has been covering
prediction markets for a long time. He's going to join
(13:26):
and I would say that since I've been reporting this book,
the influences of these businesses has become an increasingly important
narrative in our space, and their sort of disruption that
is happening and how these things are being framed is
(13:47):
so big that it is akin to the way people
talked about Uber, the way people talked about social media. Calshi,
one of the prediction markets, the one that is legal
in the United States, just raised a hundred and eighty
five million dollars is now value at two billion dollars. Polymarket,
another one which is not legal in the United States,
(14:07):
raised another amount of money. It's worth a billion dollars
in valuation. So there's a lot to discuss in this space.
We'll unpack all of that with Chris on Thursday, Simon.
I mean, it's fucking Midsummer and there's not supposed to
(14:28):
be anything going on, and all of this is going on.
Here's the first thing I want to ask you about.
If you don't mind, unless you unless you feel passionate
about one of the topics, I want to ask you
about one of the topics.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, it's through all of them, all right.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
So the first one is the betting scandal, right because
with the players, we're talking about Malik Leap Beasley for
the Detroit Pistons and being under investigation for betting, and
then Luis Ortiz, the Guardian's pitcher, who was under investigation
(15:06):
for gambling. This one was broken by Ken Rosenthal at
the Athletic and then David Purdam and Jeff Passon at
ESPN advanced it because they identified that there were two
pitches that or Tees had thrown that were specifically under investigation,
and with Beasley, it's prop bets that were specifically under investigation.
(15:28):
And to me, it was fascinating to go on social
media and see the video evidence of the two pitches
that or Teas was under investigation for. What are your
thoughts generally on these kinds of scandals and how they
are impacting the space.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I mean, I have a lot of opinions on it,
Chad disturb from the top. It's two different sports, which
is a big deal obviously because that happened around the
same exact time ortiz One. I don't think he can
blame on the interpreter. This is very, very noticeable he
did something in a game because I think it's what
they're breaking down the video. If I'm not wrong, Chad
(16:11):
is it's the first pitch right, yep, and very easy
for these books to track. So I say it all
the time. People don't understand how how much there was
in scandal, players tanking games, throwing boxing matches, all this
stuff from the very beginning of sports, when betting came around.
This stuff has been around forever. That is why to
(16:34):
us people in the know, especially Chad, it's so great
that the legalization of sports have happened because of these
exact things. They can catch these people now that they
try to taint our games that we love and we again,
it would ruin so much to know that these things
were happening, especially at the highest level. Now, lucky for us,
these things keep happening to players that again they're not
(16:54):
nobody's I mean again the o tiny thing that's for
another day. But it's like these other people they're not
it's not like they're the highest of highs, but they
are names in these athletes in these sports that are
pretty well known. Like Beasley was about apparently was about
to get paid for now. Yeah, now I was looking
at jail time possibly, So it's a really big deal.
(17:16):
So is someone that this is my life, this is
what I work in. I love it because it's like
keep it clean, keep it all above board. And at
the end of the day, the more you learn about
the stuff, it all comes back to debt and owing people.
And that's the scary part is these people get in
trouble for different things. Maybe they have their own gambling
addictions themselves, and they get to these holes. So yeah,
(17:37):
just at the end of the day, it's all sad
because it's like lives ruined, millions and million dollars cost
to them family. Their families are ruined in certain ways
as well, so brutal. But the things we have in
line it makes it today much better product betting on
sports than it was even say ten years ago. It's
so much cleaner protected than it used to be. I'm
(17:57):
such a fan that they keep catching these people. They're
with AI or whatever it is, these algorithms, they keep
catching these people with just a really big fan of
it and props to the people you do the work.
It's like it's not only as a real journalism, it's
real work by these sports books catching these people doing
this stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I don't know exactly what alerted people to anything related
to Beasley and what that investigation.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
It's always going to be the money coming in on
the bets chat.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Right, But I don't mean like how they tracked it
right with ortes. There's an organization called IC three sixty
and they do global monitoring of markets and are in
regular communication with the operators and with the leagues to
(18:44):
police what's happening. And I see three sixty is the
one that recognized what was going on with orties and
then alerted the authorities that needed to be known, that
needed to know about what was happening. So that's an
important part of this that has been going on for
(19:05):
thirty years right, and thirty years ago the operators were
regularly talking to the leagues themselves. That's how scandals like
the Arizona State College basketball betting scandal came to be known,
is the operators recognized strange betting patterns and were able
(19:31):
to shut down the betting and then communicate to the
n c DOUBLEA about what was happening. Now there are
global organizations that monitor this as it's become bigger, and
as the leagues themselves have just so much more at
stake and at risk because of the legalization of sports
(19:51):
betting and because of the stances they've taken. I had
a conversation with someone I'm talking to at the NFL
for this book, and we were talking about sort of
the threat to integrity of the game, and I made
the point that, as you just said, Simon, there have
(20:12):
been betting scandals as long as there have been sports.
Literally Major League Baseball, the National League was founded in
eighteen seventy six. In eighteen seventy seven, there was a
betting scandal, and Matt Mitchell and I talked about this
on sort of the Great Moments in Gambling podcast. The
Pittsburgh Steelers, the New York Giants, the Cleveland Browns, the
(20:37):
now Arizona Cardinals, the New York Yankees, all founded by
professional betters or professional bookmakers, because those are the people
who were willing to take the biggest risks and had
cash at hand and liked sports. When all these things
were becoming a big deal, every sports betting scandal has
(20:58):
been followed by increased viewership, increased rights, increased audience, increased interest.
I think the sports betting scandals are terrible. I don't
think they're going to be the death knell for sports. Really.
What worries me for sports and sports betting is violence
(21:22):
against the players, because I do think that's going to
be something that we saw with Lance mccullors, we saw
Tyrese Haliburton talked about it last year. When players have
to start getting security, when fans can't control themselves, when
there is a sort of you forget who you are,
where you are, or even worse, you didn't know to
(21:44):
begin with, and you are blaming the players for your losses,
That to me is a really frightening development that seem
to be much less relevant or obvious before sports betting
became legal and before the number of people betting hit increased.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
That's fair, but I mean it's a that's always been around,
right fanatic fan, I mean that's always been I mean
they what was that movie they made Back of the
Day now Alpatune, I forget who it was. He was
a crazy fan.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Oh I don't know it.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Oh no, you would love it. It's terrible, but it's a
good movie just about how crazy fans are. You literally
capture as a player pills them hostage. But yeah, it's
it's always been there, Chad, I agree with you. Like obviously,
a guy yelling at a basketball player about losing his
ten dollars parlay because they didn't hit some shot. It's
it's it's a it's a bad part of it. But
like I told you from the get go, we're just
(22:43):
in the early days for it. So you're always gonna
have these people like Bob Costas or wherever coming out
and talking about how bad it is and the negative
stuff of sports betting. There's always bena be a couple
of bad eggs. It's just it's just the way it is.
It's the same thing we talk about with alcohol and
cigarettes and things like that, where it's freedom of choice.
We know it's not the best thing, but obviously if
(23:04):
people can keep their shit together, keep their cool, it's
a great thing for the general public to be able
to do to you know, enjoy life. And it's just
another thing part of it. But yeah, the going on
social media and telling people are gonna kill their families.
I'm happy they catch and prosecute these people, right, That's
that's another good thing that they're doing now, is these
assholes aren't just getting away with making these outlangers threats, Like,
(23:24):
there are consequences to these certain words you say to people.
So I'm with you. It's it's obviously the black stain
on what we do is these people that go either
way to like you know, say horrible things. Mean you
are part of it, Like, this is part of our job.
We get the stuff people say to us. It's it's
insane where I just know me personally, no one would
ever say that to my face. So it is it
(23:47):
is a weird thing that we are involved in this
world we're in. But again, I love it. It's it's
all weird and unique in its own way. But I
wouldn't change it. Obviously there's things that would change to it,
but overall, it's what the craziness is what makes it work, Chad,
So I'm with you, though, it's it's when you hear
those stories, it's it's just horrible when you read that
stuff about these players, what they go through with those fans.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Think about you, Simon, people say mean things to you
and they like you. They don't even like me that stuff.
Think about what I get.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, I can only imagine.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So I also found it really fascinating the way people
on TikTok, Instagram wherever were speculating about Malik Beasley. They
didn't even know what he was being investigated for, but
they were taking out of context clips and saying, look
(24:42):
at how obvious it is that he was fixing this game.
To me, that felt totally irresponsible and tasteless. And that
to me, whereas the artis stuff you could find the
video evidence, that to me felt like the flip side
under belly sensational idiocy of what happens on social media
(25:09):
when you are connecting one plus one and getting three.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, that's what it is. Robert de Niro, the fan,
That's what it was. I was trying to I coudn't
even look it up. I was like, what the hell
was the name of that movie? I coudn't even think
it was. The lead actor is Rob Deer a fan.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Game.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You hear it, So it's tough push right an insane
fan and it's like we're talking about here, Chad.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
There's just Wesley Snipes.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yes, yes, So they're just they're gonna be out there.
What can you do. It's it's part of what It's
part of the game. And the most shocking thing too,
again I don't spend much time on social media, was
these poker players talking about well, we're about to talk
about this big beautiful bill, yes, and the hate and
disdain they would get from people, and it's like, it's
(26:04):
just bizarre. It is bizarre. It's a bizarre world we
live in. So yeah, we should definitely dive into that.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Well, let's talk about it. So the Big Beautiful Bill
was passed, and in the moments before it was passed,
say twenty four hours or so, you started seeing the
news popping up via Twitter, largely about changes to how
professional betters could file their taxes. And it used to
(26:32):
be you could take one hundred percent of your losses
and deduct that from your wins that you filed for
simon you filed as a professional better and then all
of a sudden you're getting what basically your salary is
but because gambling is not necessarily the best thing for society,
and because gamblers are not the most sympathetic group, this
(26:56):
was something that through the Finance Committee, had been studied
and then was added to the Senate's big beautiful bill,
and when Congress was going through it, it got through,
and it became a pretty big uproar, not just from
gambling Twitter, but then all of a sudden, the Washington
(27:18):
Post did a story about it. ESPN did a story
about it, The New York Post did a story about it.
Axios did a story about it. It was fascinating to
me of the thousand page bill and all of the
provisions in this bill, including the fact that I believe
there were provisions that made it easier or more cost
effective to get a silencer. This is the one that
(27:43):
bubbled up and became sort of so interesting for people.
From your point of view, Simon, I've basically laid it out.
You can you can only deduct ninety percent of your losses.
Now explain from your point of view you how that
impacts professional betters. And I will say this was such
(28:05):
a cost to lab that already the representative from Las
Vegas has proposed a bill to reverse this and is
already getting support. It needs bipartisan support. I think it
will get it. This doesn't go into effect until the
end of twenty twenty six, so my senses, over the
next eighteen months this might be repealed. But in the
(28:26):
immediate it's something you got to think about. Simon.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, and I could actually take ten to fifteen minutes
on us, but we don't have that much time. And
I'll just say the quick version is it's over. It
just they've made it so that it's impossible to make
a living betting in America legally, so we'll die have
more time in doo, we have more time and to
break it more down. But as right now as it's.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
So hold on, I know Matt Mitchell is pushing us,
but like this is a huge topic. I know, give it,
give it a little back.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Here, I mean, just the basis of it. It's it's
just there's too many moving parts right now. We don't
know what's going to happen right Like what you just said,
it's it's impossible. It's impossible to make a living when
I'm paying for ten percent of my losses. And we
even talked about new Jersey either, like what they're doing
(29:16):
in New Jersey. It's just we're being attacked and I
dripped with you. In America, they will do anything. Our
government will do anything in their power to tax anybody.
But they're rich and this is just another one of
those things. Cause again, yes it's affecting professional betters. We
make a living finding ways around the rules, so this
(29:36):
is not going to affect us in the long term
and anyway other than it's fucking up my life and
maybe don't make me move to fucking England. I don't
want to move to England for six months, but that
might be well my life is because Canada is the
same way. Canada will tax you for being a professional better,
so you know, the only countries that are left, maybe
I'll be in Supermuda for six months, like all the
options of the table. I've been meeting with people for
(29:57):
the last two days about it because it's such a
big deal. And yeah, it's it's blind siding because I
heard whispers, but I didn't think it was real because
it's so stupid and it went through. It's like these
guys just don't know what they're doing. So yeah, chat,
I just it's something we're going to spend a lot
of time home because it's it's one of the more
fascinating stories, like you said, since the legalization of sports
(30:20):
betting in this country, and it's a clear attack on
professional betters and people who make their living beating the casinos.
So that's all I'm going to say at that part.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I do have a theory about this. I want to
leave a little bit of a cliffhanger. If Matt Mitchell
had hair on his head, he'd be pulling it out
right now because he wants us to to save some
of this for part two of this very special podcast episode,
which I will because I do have a theory and
(30:49):
I want to bring it up with our guest, Chris Gerlocker,
who's going to be joining us on Thursday show. So
I want to leave a little bit of that meat
on the bone. So let's just say that we will
return with our next episode of The Favorites Thursday on
the Action Network YouTube page with special guest Chris Gerlocker.
(31:11):
Download us from Spotify, Apple Pods, wherever you get your pods,
Rate review, subscribe, leave us five stars, say whatever you want.
Feedback is a gift Until next time. Love You Action
Network reminds you please gamble responsibly. If you or someone
(31:33):
you care about has a gambling problem, help Us available
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Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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