Nick Wright reacts to Shedeur Sanders' stellar debut for the Cleveland Browns in their opening NFL preseason matchup against the Carolina Panthers. Should Shedeur start over Joe Flacco, Kenny Pickett, and Dillon Gabriel? Later, Nick breaks down why Colin Cowherd saying Patrick Mahomes, Travis Kelce, and the Kansas City Chiefs' dynasty is over is a ridiculous take. How confident is Nick in his Chiefs to hold off the likes of Josh Allen's Buffalo Bills, Lamar Jackson's Baltimore Ravens, and Joe Burrow's Cincinnati Bengals? Lastly, Nick reacts to The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and ESPN’s Dan Orlovsky's QB rankings heading into the 2025 NFL season. Nick discusses whether it is fair for anyone to rank Buffalo Bills QB Josh Allen, Baltimore Ravens QB Lamar Jackson, or Cincinnati Bengals QB Joe Burrow over Kansas City Chiefs QB Patrick Mahomes... and uses Simmons' Tom Brady-Peyton Manning argument to say why it's not. #Volume
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Best of the Week for What's Right
with Nick Wright, the best takes and moments from this
week on the show. Enjoy Chador.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
He looked pretty good. I mean, he looked fantastic, but
he looked pretty good for a quarterback who went there
and did his thing. Head coach Steven Kevin Stefanski still
hasn't committed to Shador. So do you think that he
showed everything he needed to do to get the starting job?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
What do you well? He's definitely not going to be
their Week one starter. That is gonna be Joe Flacco.
I don't even think. By the way, if I were Shadoor,
I know he can't say this. I wouldn't even want
to be the Week one starter. Like I would rather
the Browns open with the Ravens and then they play
(00:49):
I'm sorry, the Brown's open with the Bengals, so I
wouldn't actually hate that because of the Bengals defense, but
then they go Ravens, Packers, Lions, Vikings, Steelers, like those
are not defenses. I'm interested in playing it right, all
exactly right. And I understand that the Browns just released
their latest depth chart and Shador is still number four.
(01:11):
They did not move him up at all, I don't
believe it. I think that Shadoor has now if we
are being fair, he has taken it is now Dylan
Gabriel who is chasing Shador in the quarterback competition instead
(01:34):
of vice versa. Like the you know, the old adage
you don't lose your job due to injury is total bs.
Happens in sports all the time. People lose their job
because of injury and because the guy who fills in
for you shows something he didn't have the opportunity to
show before. And so if Flacco is just entrenched at one,
(02:01):
which I think he is, Kenny Pickett was two and
is two on the late step chart. He's been hurt
the last couple weeks of camp. Doesn't look like he's
gonna play at all, and he didn't play in their
first preseason game. Doesn't look like he's been playing their second.
Dylan Gabriel is three. Gabriel, according to all reports on
(02:21):
the ground, has been bad in practice and was injured
for the first preseason game. Shadores four. He's practiced well
and I thought made four very high level throws in
that game and really only made a couple bad mistakes. Yeah,
(02:42):
and so I think that is enough to where he
should have taken the lead on Gabriel, and the goal
for either of these rookies flatly needed to be beat
out the other rookie. So when at when Flacco inevitably
gets benched, I'm the guy they go to. Now, maybe
(03:06):
they'll go to pick it, but I think that would
be asinine. And so now I also think this Demanse.
I think Gabriel will and should start preseason game number two,
and then you know he can if he plays well
in the store.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Both of them have. I think that's what we'll do.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I could even see him go, Demanse, quarter quarter quarter,
you know what they're thereabouts, Like, I could see Gabriel
playing then shoudor then Gabriel back in then should or
that way, you know what I mean. You get more
time with starting caliber players or you know, guys that
are actually going to make the team, or they each
(03:48):
get it. But I now think Gabriel, I think Shador
is now amongst the rookies in pole position. And I
also think that, and this is why so I thought
after the game him saying something to Tony Grosy was
(04:08):
totally fine and I think people don't recognize how common
that is that guys sang after games in locker rooms
are in the tunnel to reporters like, hey, what was
up with that? That has happened forever? That used to
happen to me. I remember Matt Cassel saying to a
(04:29):
different media member, we're both standing there. When he realized
that media member, you know what. I think it was
to Mark Carmon, our friend whose birthday was actually yesterday.
I think it was to karm that he said to him,
this is your buddy about me? He's like, yeah, He's like,
he sure talks a lot of shit, doesn't He like,
(04:50):
did not like some of the things I had said
about him. That's super common. So I have no problem
at all with Shador having that moment with Tony.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Grosy time, though, what you need to be worried about?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So here is the thing on that. I think the
smile and the laugh at the end made it okay.
And I think that like charisma and charm and a
great smile can really carry Yeah, and so like that
to me was fine. I thought the walk in was
(05:27):
a misstep. I didn't think it was a grievous error,
but I thought, I'm not asking you to be someone
you're not, but turned down the volume on literally on
the boombox, I guess, and also figuratively. Now I understand
(05:49):
those were his teammates, not his entourage, but still you're
the quarterback, the guy carrying the giant walking stick staff
in the boombox. I might have been like, can we
not do that? And if you really want to walk
in like that, maybe I'll go in, you know, a
little bit after you. Because it's.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
He is.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
If the Browns won't elevate him on their real depth chart,
then he also wants another team to trade for him,
you know, And so I just don't think that helps.
But I don't think it's a huge deal. You'd certainly
rather him play well and have an awkward pre and
(06:33):
postgame then be perfect pre and post game and playport.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Right, go ahead, No, I mean with that take, you
were saying that maybe he should show out for the Rams,
or maybe the Rams look at him, because words like
a mortal chamber are being thrown around very serious. I
don't know, do you think that's more of a possibility now,
like it's more serious.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I think that right now he's probably worth he was
drafted with a fifth. I think he's worth at least
a fourth, you know what I mean? And so, but
I don't I think the Browns want to keep him.
I think Stefanski might be coming around if he wasn't
already there. And I think you had to be impressed
(07:18):
by how he handled himself and how he played this Sunday.
Was it Sunday? Saturday? Friday?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It was Friday, it was Thursday, Friday?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
All right, Demanda, let's go to the listener questions.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
T asked, where do you think Alan Lamar rank all
time right this moment just his quarterback talents? I'd say
both Top fifteen side question, are the smelling salts going
to ruin your life?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Smelling salts are not going to ruin my life? But
you know, strong recommend if people haven't tried him yet,
especially if you're like maybe trying to kick caffeine or
something like. I haven't right into the put in downsides
of houff pneumonia occasionally, but it sure woke me up.
Where do Lamar and Allen rank just as quarterback talents?
(08:14):
What an interesting question? Top fifteen sounds right like if
I were ranking just quarter just raw talent, quarterbacks. Ever,
that's what Yeah, that's what they're saying, saying all time.
Mahomes Rogers are to me the top two.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Lamar's got to be like top ten at least any
same thing. But I feel like both those guys, those
are electric dudes as far as this talent, like no,
maybe not one, Yeah, those are.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, so I think safely so raw talent, Mahomes raw
Farv has to be up there. Manning has to be
up there. It's a compliment to Brady that we're not
even like saying him with all of his success, because
(09:14):
you know, he maximized everything about his physical ability. Marino's
got to be up there. I always have had a
soft spot for Steve Young. John Elway's up there. And
now we can start talking Lamar and Josh you know
what I mean. Like, so, yeah, the in that bottom
(09:37):
part of the top tens firmly in the top fifteen.
I think that's right. All right, let's go to Ethan.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Ethan asked, as a poker expert who understands the principle
of the plus ev. I'm curious if you take the
same approach into sports gambling, or if you trust your
own personal bias over sharp books.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I don't look at I don't look at sports spending
the way I look at poker. Just for the record,
like I don't, I don't, while I do try every
year to give out winners and to you know, make
you guys money. I I am.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
A little bit more conservative with poker.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
No, I don't know a bit. No, I just look
at it like poker, I am trying to make the
best decision at every point. Sports I have a very
hard time betting against my takes, you know what I mean.
(10:43):
I won't always bet on my takes, but like I
it's why I'll I'll never, even if I'm getting points,
bet against the chiefs, you know what I mean. So like,
there are just certain things that so that's but I
also I and this is how I would recommend it
for other people look at sports betting as a recreational endeavor,
(11:06):
not like, hey, this is how I'm gonna make extra money.
Poker's different in that regard for me. All right, let's
keep going.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Michael ass is Jackson better than Prime Vig?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yes, love Mike, but yes, Lamar is a far already
a far better passer than Mike ever was just you
know what, I mean, he just is and I love Mike,
but that's I think Mike would tell you that next.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Indy, Nick, do you think that everyone is just so
skewed by fantasy football? Josh Lamar have been excellent fantasy quarterbacks,
so people assume that they are the best.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yeah. I think that absolutely is something to do with it.
I absolutely think that the crazy fantasy numbers impact this one.
Hum noah, yeah, no, no, ass When is the Future
show going to happen?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
It's like soon.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, So we have a show Thursday, then we're off
for a week, and then the Our Futures in our
Gambling show will probably be a two part thing Tuesday
and Thursday next week to get us ready for football season,
right in line with predictions week on First Things First,
and Diego says has snakes enthusiast Kevin Wild's weight in
(12:24):
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Speaker 3 (13:26):
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Speaker 2 (14:00):
Andy Reid down played all the naysayers, saying that the
Kansas City's window is closing for the dynasty. Colin was
also one of those naysayers, saying that the winning is over.
Do you think that the win Do you think that
the dynasty is continuable if they win the Super Bowl
this year?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Well, hold on, I don't even think that's obviously. If
they win the super Bowl this year, the dynasty is
in progress. I want to focus more on Listen. I
think it's well established how much I adore and love
Colin Cowherd. His Chiefs takes Now, I mostly blame Jmack.
I think that, like the proximity to Jmax's historically bad
(14:40):
Chiefs takes have somehow there's been an osmosis of take
that has impacted Colin. But they've been to three straight
Super Bowls. They they had the best record in the
NFL last year. They got it to.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
The last one, right, they got it. They made it
to the last super Bowl. Like I think they have
to at least not make a super Bowl for the
dynasty to be over.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Well I would think so, right yeah. And by the way,
like when we talk about dynasties in the NFL, the
Pittsburgh Steelers is probably the most famous one. They won
two super Bowls. They then went two years without making
(15:28):
the Super forget without winning it, without making the super Bowl,
and then they won two more. We look at that
as one dynasty. The Patriots is an interesting one. I
don't consider the Pants one continuous dynasty, but if you do,
(15:48):
it went like this, won a super Bowl, missed the playoffs,
then won two super Bowls, then gosh, I'm gonna have
to do this off the top of my head. Six
going for the three pat lost their first playoff game.
I'm sorry, wait, five going for the three pat It's
(16:09):
gonna be hard to off top my head, but I'm
gonna try. Lost their first playoff game. Six lost in
Round two. Oh seven lost the Super Bowl. OH eight
missed the playoffs. Nine and twenty ten lost before the
Super Bowl. Twenty eleven lost in the super Bowl twenty twelve,
(16:32):
twenty thirteen lost before the Super Bowl, fourteen won the
Super Bowl, fifteen lost in Conference title game, sixteen won
the Super Bowl, seventeen lost the Super Bowl, eighteen won
the Super Bowl, nineteen lost in Round one. So if
we want to do that as one long dynasty, then
it's going to be impossible to say the Chiefs dynasty
(16:55):
is over. If you consider the Patriots one long dynasty.
The Patri's went a decade without winning a Super Bowl.
The Chiefs have gone sixteen months, and so that part's
just ridiculous. It's just fundamentally ridiculous to say I'm declaring
(17:18):
it dead when the Chiefs are in the midst of
or just completed I guess you would say the greatest
three year stretch in the history of the league. And
they have been to three consecutive Super Bowls and seven
straight AFC Championship Games. It's now if your take is
(17:41):
they're just not good enough anymore, it's a bold take,
maybe like there's no evidence for it, But if it's
just your gut feeling, then so be it. Here is
here is what I find the most demands a ridiculous
(18:08):
about this Chief's fatalism stuff, and then we can move
on every team in the AFC that is chasing them.
If this year they have the exact season Kansas City
(18:33):
had last year, best last undefeated team, best record in
the NFL, beat the Chiefs in the AFC playoffs, make
the Super Bowl, lose the super Bowl, it will be
considered evidence that that team is getting closer, and the
(18:57):
best season any of those teams have had in this era,
the Chiefs having that year is considered evidence of implosion.
But I am here to tell you if the Baltimore
Ravens are the final one, or the Buffalo Bills, or
the Cincinnati Bengals, or the Los Angeles Chargers or god forbid,
(19:19):
the Denver Broncos or any of those teams, if they
are the last undefeated team, if they are fifteen to
one with the one seed locked up, they then beat
the Chiefs in the playoffs and then run into I
don't care who call it Philly or no, because Philly
(19:40):
then would go back to back that complicates things, call
it the Lions and get blown out in the Super Bowl.
If that were to happen, and then I were to
go on TV and be like, that's this year was
the end of that team. They're done. Now there is
(20:02):
a time for a new chapter. People would say that, dude,
you're just a hater. And this is also an element
of a lot of my Mahomes frustration in and I'm
(20:23):
going to talk about this on the TV show today
in how he's discussed. Do you agree to Monsday that
all Lamar, josh Ann Burrow the year they had last
year elevated them, even if not in their actual ranking,
(20:44):
but people elevated them their standing, and that people felt
their seasons combined with the year Mahomes had narrowed the
gap for best quarterback, and some people flipped it. You
agree with that, right, That's like conventional wisdom, Okay. And
(21:07):
this is where the point that I make that Mahomes
is not judged against his peers, I think is crystallized.
Let's pretend Patrick this year had any of their seasons
(21:27):
last year. Okay, Let's start with Joe. Patrick puts up
insane numbers and the Chiefs miss the playoffs. Does that
help or does anyone be like, Okay, that helped Patrick's.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Back dynasty is definitely over.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Okay, So all right, let's do Lamar's year. Patrick puts
up insane numbers. The Chiefs are the you know, a
good but not great seed. They're the three, and for
the first time in his career, he does not make
(22:08):
a conference championship game because he loses in round two
to one of the other rival quarterbacks. Does that help
or hurt Patrick's standing?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Who had hurt him?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It would hurt him all right, STU. Josh Patrick wins league,
MVP team has a really good record, they get the
two seed, and then to go back to the super Bowl,
doesn't come through at the end and Josh beats him.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Is anybody then being like, Okay, Patrick has reclaimed or
they're like, oh mvpb damn Josh beat him? Now do
the flip side for any of those guys, all three
of them demons? Give them Patrick's year last year. They
have mediocre stats but lead the league in game winning
(23:04):
drives and comebacks, and he beats two of those guys
en route. I'm sorry, any of the those guys are
the one seed and beat Patrick to get to the
super Bowl. Imagine if I then went on TV and
(23:25):
was like, yeah, but his touch there, you know, Lamar's
touchdown interception ratio wasn't that impressive. I'm actually dinging him.
It's just insane. And so I know I'm the Kansas
City guy. I know I have the tattoo that I
still don't know how to show on camera. I still
(23:46):
don't know what I'm supposed to do here. It's just
a disaster. There we go, I see, I don't even
know what I'm there we go. Well, it's just here's
the thing. It's just boring. It's just boring. And I
(24:06):
I also like just one other thing, because what has
become very in vogue and Bruce says it a lot,
and he and I talked about this, not like d
I'd like to talk about it, but discussed it on
the air the other the other day, which is because
it's become very in vogue to say something along the
(24:29):
lines of like, oh, Mahomes is doing Brady's career in reverse,
where Brady in the beginning won but didn't have the stats,
and Mahomes and then later in his career had the
crazy numbers. Mahomes are but it's just inaccurate. And here's
what I mean. Mahomes early and every year of his
(24:52):
career except the last two first five years one and
had MVP caliber stats and the last two years he's won,
but he hasn't had the crazy numbers until the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
But this idea that Tom Brady post two thousand and
seven was just year in, year out, this statistical monster,
it's just not true. So Tom Brady two thousand and
seven had what at that point the greatest quarterback season ever.
He then misses two thousand and eight due to injury.
(25:28):
Two thousand and nine, tom Brady's team was ten and
six and he had twenty eight touchdowns thirteen interceptions, and
they lost their first playoff game. Then twenty ten, he
had one of the greatest statistical seasons ever thirty six touchdowns,
four picks, and twenty eleven he was in line with
(25:49):
it thirty nine touchdowns, twelve picks, and then twenty twelve
it's down to a ninety eight passer rating and twenty
thirteen twenty five touchdowns, eleven picks and in eighty seven rating.
That's in twenty thirteen, and then obviously twenty fourteen, they
(26:12):
win the Super Bowl. Twenty fifteen, he has an all
time twenty fifteen sixteen to seventeen all time stats years
where he has a combined doing the math on the fly,
ninety six touchdowns, fifteen picks, a one toh eight rating
over the course of three years. But then the very
next year twenty eighteen, they go eleven to five. He
(26:35):
is twenty nine touchdowns eleven picks, but they win the
Super Bowl twenty nineteen twenty four touchdowns, eight picks in
eighty eight rating and leaves the Patriots and then goes
on the sick run in Tampa. The point I'm making
is this, even Pete Brady had these season like the
season where it's like, oh, twenty nine touchdowns, eleven picks,
(26:57):
twenty four touchdowns, eight picks, twenty five touch downs eleven picks,
it was not every single year statistical excellence. It was
every single year when the division make the playoffs, and
it is at the tail end of his Patriots tenure,
every single year make a conference championship game. But it's
just it's we've got to be honest about what real
(27:22):
expectations are, and we've got to be honest about what
the guys who are allegedly in Patrick's league. If Patrick
had the season they just had, and they just had
the season Patrick just had, how would we view it
that's all I'm saying. Hey, guys, talking about my friends
(27:45):
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Speaker 2 (28:37):
So, a couple QB polls came out, quarterback rankings, whatever
you want to call them. So Bill Simmons debuted his
quarterback pyramid and he had Josh Allen at the top.
Dan Orlofsky came out with a bunch of traits that
quarterback sho have is about six and had Patrick mahomes
number one and about the same amount of categories as
Daniel Jones.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
So which one? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, zero? So which one of these is? And raging
you more? Which one do you want to ask?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Oh, It's definitely Simmons's. And we're gonna deep dive on
it because it is not lost on me that my
pal and I like Bill. Bill and I have a
good relationship. But it is not lost to me that
Bill Simmons kind of kicks off his full NFL coverage
(29:23):
with a podcast that debuts a quarterback pyramid and whose
main guest is Kevin Wilds. I'm not saying that Bill
that this was a direct shot at me and you know,
trying to pull apart. First things first, but I'm not
saying it wasn't. So I'll get to Bill in a second.
(29:45):
But on Orlofsky's thing, listen, I'm not gonna I'm not
gonna argue with Dan. Dan obviously knows the quarterback position
better than me. I what I am gonna say is
this arm strength. He is Josh Allen one, Patrick two,
no problem. I actually agree with that, and I actually
(30:07):
think you could be tricky with that one. There might
be you might be able to say Herbert could be
ahead of Patrick Hell. I don't know if Joe Milton's
availed eligible, like he could be like that just the
raw arm strength, Josh Allen one is totally fine, no
beef whatsoever. Then it gets dumb ball placement. Patrick Mahomes
(30:33):
five behind Joe Burrow again fine, Jaden, Lamar and Josh.
You know, I think that's a good take. I think
a lot of people watch Lamar, Josh and Jaden and
they're like, they can just put it where they want
(30:53):
better than Patrick Mahomes.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I was just thinking, like, how much of Burrows is
the fact that he has those crazy you are receivers.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
They're just gonna well, No, I think Burrow is like
dumb accurate because he has to be because he's not
very fast and he doesn't have the strongest arm. So
the only way he can be as successful as he
is is like I think Burrow would maybe win the
contest of that net drill that Caleb failed the other
(31:22):
day if they did that, but like made it harder
and harder and harder. I think Burrow might be my
number one pick. But call me crazy in that drill,
I wouldn't take Lamar over Patrick. Again, maybe I'm a hater.
Next one, we get to mechanics where you list ten
quarterbacks and Patrick's not one of them. And let me
tell you again, he has Lamar four. Yeah, I watch
(31:49):
Lamar play quarterback, and I'm like, man, if only Patrick
had as clean of mechanics as Lamar does, I do like,
I feel that way. I think it's a good take
the other ones. And again again like the if Geno,
Dak and Golf have better mechanics than Patrick, then maybe
mechanics are overrated. But mechanics didn't. Again, Patrick didn't make
(32:12):
the top ten decision making with the football. Patrick came
in fifth. Again I and then this is the this
is the one that really I couldn't. I couldn't get
over pocket presence Burrow one, Lamar two, Patrick three. Okay,
like whatever, I'm not gonna I don't even I don't
(32:35):
even know what we're doing here. But fine, that's Orlowsky's list.
He has a more fine tuned I for quarterback than me.
I suppose I think it is. I disagree with some
of those, but that's not my real beef. My real
beef is with Bill, because Bill debuts his quarterback pyramid
(32:58):
and has Josh Allen at the top. And the problem
with that is, and here's the problem with having as
long and as successful a career as Bill Simmons has had,
and a career that so many folks, myself included obviously,
(33:23):
literally grew up reading every single one of your sports
takes because Bill's column was must read for every sports
fan of my generation for more than a decade. The
problem with having that level of influence and being having
(33:48):
that long of a career is ear muffs, kids, We
remember what you fucking wrote. And for fifty f teen years,
Bill fought tooth and nail against the idea that anyone
(34:12):
would ever, under any circumstances consider Peyton Manning better than
Tom Brady, even though for the entirety of those fifteen years,
Peyton had a strong, a far stronger case to be
(34:33):
considered better than Peyton Manning. I'm sorry that. Let me
back that up. Peyton had a far stronger case to
be considered better than Brady then Josh would have right
now to be considered better than Patrick. And this is
where all of these quarterback rankings are going. To be
(34:56):
self defeating. But let me just quick off the top
of my damn head, give you the Peyton versus Tom
first decade history. Win again a reminder, my pal Bill
built part of his massive empire on the take that
(35:22):
Tom Brady is better than Peyton Manning. If we go
two thousand to two thousand and five, Peyton has peeled MVPs,
but Peyton is zero to two in the playoffs against Tom.
Tom has three championships, Peyton has none. Peyton has never
been to a Super Bowl. So even though Peyton Manning
(35:43):
statistically speaking, was the far superior quarterback with MVPs, he
had never beaten Tom in a big spot. The championships
were three to nothing. Then in two thousand and six,
Peyton not only wins another I'm sorry, he's already won
two MVPs at that point, plays Tom in the AFC
(36:05):
Championship game. Tom's up I think twenty one to three
at halftime. Peyton comes all the way back and wins
the Super Bowl, wins, it beats Tom, and the playoffs
are now two to one. Peyton wins the Super Bowl,
and Bill, I think justifiably is still even though in
(36:25):
that moment all pros. Peyton has multiple tom As zero.
MVPs Peyton has multiple tom As zero. The playoff win
loss record is two to one. The rings are three
to one. Bill is still strident, steadfast correct Tom's better,
(36:45):
seemingly vindicated by the fact that the next year Tom
finally wins his first MVP team goes undefeated. They look
like one of the greatest teams ever until as double
digit favorites, they get beat in the Super Bowl. In
that moment, even though the rings were three to one,
(37:06):
the MVPs were two to one, the all pros were
two to one or three to one, I'm not sure,
and the playoff win loss record was two to one
in Tom's direction in that moment, if anyone had debuted
the take, Peyton has passed Tom because Tom didn't win
(37:30):
the Super Bowl last year, Bill's head would have exploded.
And then, by the way, over the next decade, Tom
never beat Peyton in the playoffs again. There was a
brief time in Denver where it looked like maybe Peyton
had kind of overtaken the argument, and then Tom went
(37:50):
on that unbelievable twenty fourteen through twenty twenty run to
cemended himself as the goat. But every single football take
we have heard for twenty years from Bill Simmons has
(38:12):
valued playoff performance, doing it in the biggest spots. And
if you've got the belt, someone's got to come take
it from you. So when I saw the clip yesterday,
(38:33):
where the rationale for elevating Josh Allen, who is again
unlike Peyton Brady, where Peyton had the stats and Brady
had the wins, Maholmes has moral pros, more MVPs, better
career numbers, five trips to the Super Bowl to zero,
(38:58):
three rings to zero, and is four and zero in
the playoffs against him. When I hear the argument that
Mahomes played so poorly in the Super Bowl, he falls
down a peg without the obvious follow up being why
(39:25):
wasn't Josh in the Super Bowl? Bill? Because he couldn't
beat Patrick again? And that is where and again, I
think Josh is the second best quarterback in the league.
Now that Josh has a league MVP, I'm comfortable calling
(39:46):
him a future Hall of Famer. I think Josh eventually
is going to break through. I think Josh's ability last
year to cut down on the turnovers and still care
a team that wasn't all that talented at the skill position,
certainly on the outside was wildly impressive. But we have
(40:11):
to stop acting like these have been unfair fights, or
Josh hasn't had his chance in back to back years
in the playoffs. Once in Josh's building, once in Patrick's building,
(40:33):
Josh has gotten the ball late fourth quarter, down three
points the first time. He can only get them to
not the edge of field goal range, but not a
gimme field goal forty four yard or if I remember,
(40:55):
and that would have only gotten them the tie. With
a couple of minutes left. There's a chance, finish the game,
ball in your hands. Don't let Patrick come back and
get it. They come away with zero points. Then last
year down three Conference championship game, plenty of time, can't
(41:18):
get to midfield, So do not do you cannot. And
this is why the quarterback ranking stuff right now can
be so frustrating for people. Has Patrick played in the
regular season his best ball in the last couple of years? No,
(41:39):
but who are again? And I've said it before, I
will say it again if you want to argue, you
know what, Jalen Hurts is the best quarterback in the league.
I don't think anyone actually believes that, except for maybe
Jalen's lovely mother, who dressed me down a bit the
(42:01):
night before the Super Bowl. I don't even think Jalen
believes that. But if you want to argue that, at
least there is a case you can make. But for
the other three guys, as I sat a moment ago,
the argument becomes instantly self defeating. Burrows' claim to fame
(42:25):
is what he did in the first two the first
postseason and a half of his career, going into Arrowhead,
beating Patrick, getting to the Super Bowl, then getting back
to the AFC Championship Game, and then he had a
(42:45):
pretty miserable second half with a chance to go to
a second straight Super Bowl, got the ball, tie game,
go get a field goal, got negative yards, loses, and
has not been back to the postseason since. There is
no time in the history of Pro football when there
(43:07):
have been multiple first ballot Hall of Famers active in
their prime where we would say a guy elevated himself
to best quarterback in the league in a two year
stretch where he plays zero playoff games not eligible. Lamar,
(43:27):
who's in the midst of arguably as good of a
two year regular season stretch as any player at his
position ever when that player to varying degrees, and this
past year was the most positive sign has come up
(43:52):
against the other two guys who he is in the
debate with for who's the best and both games gotten
out played by and lost to in the postseason Patrick
(44:17):
two years ago and Josh last year. He's not gonna
have it. And across all of sports except for maybe
there were some people arguing Jerry West was better than
Bill Russell. But with respect, as great as the Mahomes
(44:38):
Reid Chiefs are, they are not the institutionally top to
bottom more talented team like the Russell Celtics. We have
never made an argument that win every single year for
a half decade, one guy beats an out plays another
(45:01):
guy in the postseason that the other guy's better. It's
a again for the entirety of Peyton versus Brady, when
Peyton was a cult that whole decade plus. They only
(45:21):
played in the postseason three times and it was two
to one Tom, and it was still framed correctly as
if Tom held over him in the postseason. Imagine if
they played four times and it was four to zero
and So again, this is what I would ask my
(45:41):
pal Bill if Tom had beaten Peyton in six and
then gone on to lose that Super Bowl, and he
was up three to zero in the playoffs and the
ring count was three zero and the super Bowl count
was for zero, and someone made the argument that Peyton
(46:07):
Manning was better based on Tom playing poorly in this
make believe two thousand and six super Bowl, what would
your reaction have been? And the answer as we know, so,
can we please please have a level of consistency on this,
(46:34):
that's all. Honestly, that didn't go quite as long as
I thought. And again I'm not trying to act like
I invented the pyramid style ranking of quarterbacks. What I
will say is, if you're going to really do it,
each level has to be one player bigger than the previous.
(46:58):
You can't go one, two, three, four five, five, five
five five. That's not the idea that that's not how
a pyramid looks either at the and I mean it's
just not. I mean I don't either. That's a crayon.
That's how a crayon looks, not how a pyramid looks.
That's first of all. Second of all, my Buddy Kate
(47:20):
W could have given you pointers on that when he
was on the pod with you.
Welcome to the Best of the Week for What's Right
with Nick Wright, the best takes and moments from this
week on the show. Enjoy Chador.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
He looked pretty good. I mean, he looked fantastic, but
he looked pretty good for a quarterback who went there
and did his thing. Head coach Steven Kevin Stefanski still
hasn't committed to Shador. So do you think that he
showed everything he needed to do to get the starting job?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
What do you well? He's definitely not going to be
their Week one starter. That is gonna be Joe Flacco.
I don't even think. By the way, if I were Shadoor,
I know he can't say this. I wouldn't even want
to be the Week one starter. Like I would rather
the Browns open with the Ravens and then they play
(00:49):
I'm sorry, the Brown's open with the Bengals, so I
wouldn't actually hate that because of the Bengals defense, but
then they go Ravens, Packers, Lions, Vikings, Steelers, like those
are not defenses. I'm interested in playing it right, all
exactly right. And I understand that the Browns just released
their latest depth chart and Shador is still number four.
(01:11):
They did not move him up at all, I don't
believe it. I think that Shadoor has now if we
are being fair, he has taken it is now Dylan
Gabriel who is chasing Shador in the quarterback competition instead
(01:34):
of vice versa. Like the you know, the old adage
you don't lose your job due to injury is total bs.
Happens in sports all the time. People lose their job
because of injury and because the guy who fills in
for you shows something he didn't have the opportunity to
show before. And so if Flacco is just entrenched at one,
(02:01):
which I think he is, Kenny Pickett was two and
is two on the late step chart. He's been hurt
the last couple weeks of camp. Doesn't look like he's
gonna play at all, and he didn't play in their
first preseason game. Doesn't look like he's been playing their second.
Dylan Gabriel is three. Gabriel, according to all reports on
(02:21):
the ground, has been bad in practice and was injured
for the first preseason game. Shadores four. He's practiced well
and I thought made four very high level throws in
that game and really only made a couple bad mistakes. Yeah,
(02:42):
and so I think that is enough to where he
should have taken the lead on Gabriel, and the goal
for either of these rookies flatly needed to be beat
out the other rookie. So when at when Flacco inevitably
gets benched, I'm the guy they go to. Now, maybe
(03:06):
they'll go to pick it, but I think that would
be asinine. And so now I also think this Demanse.
I think Gabriel will and should start preseason game number two,
and then you know he can if he plays well
in the store.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Both of them have. I think that's what we'll do.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I could even see him go, Demanse, quarter quarter quarter,
you know what they're thereabouts, Like, I could see Gabriel
playing then shoudor then Gabriel back in then should or
that way, you know what I mean. You get more
time with starting caliber players or you know, guys that
are actually going to make the team, or they each
(03:48):
get it. But I now think Gabriel, I think Shador
is now amongst the rookies in pole position. And I
also think that, and this is why so I thought
after the game him saying something to Tony Grosy was
(04:08):
totally fine and I think people don't recognize how common
that is that guys sang after games in locker rooms
are in the tunnel to reporters like, hey, what was
up with that? That has happened forever? That used to
happen to me. I remember Matt Cassel saying to a
(04:29):
different media member, we're both standing there. When he realized
that media member, you know what. I think it was
to Mark Carmon, our friend whose birthday was actually yesterday.
I think it was to karm that he said to him,
this is your buddy about me? He's like, yeah, He's like,
he sure talks a lot of shit, doesn't He like,
(04:50):
did not like some of the things I had said
about him. That's super common. So I have no problem
at all with Shador having that moment with Tony.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Grosy time, though, what you need to be worried about?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So here is the thing on that. I think the
smile and the laugh at the end made it okay.
And I think that like charisma and charm and a
great smile can really carry Yeah, and so like that
to me was fine. I thought the walk in was
(05:27):
a misstep. I didn't think it was a grievous error,
but I thought, I'm not asking you to be someone
you're not, but turned down the volume on literally on
the boombox, I guess, and also figuratively. Now I understand
(05:49):
those were his teammates, not his entourage, but still you're
the quarterback, the guy carrying the giant walking stick staff
in the boombox. I might have been like, can we
not do that? And if you really want to walk
in like that, maybe I'll go in, you know, a
little bit after you. Because it's.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
He is.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
If the Browns won't elevate him on their real depth chart,
then he also wants another team to trade for him,
you know, And so I just don't think that helps.
But I don't think it's a huge deal. You'd certainly
rather him play well and have an awkward pre and
(06:33):
postgame then be perfect pre and post game and playport.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Right, go ahead, No, I mean with that take, you
were saying that maybe he should show out for the Rams,
or maybe the Rams look at him, because words like
a mortal chamber are being thrown around very serious. I
don't know, do you think that's more of a possibility now,
like it's more serious.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I think that right now he's probably worth he was
drafted with a fifth. I think he's worth at least
a fourth, you know what I mean? And so, but
I don't I think the Browns want to keep him.
I think Stefanski might be coming around if he wasn't
already there. And I think you had to be impressed
(07:18):
by how he handled himself and how he played this Sunday.
Was it Sunday? Saturday? Friday?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It was Friday, it was Thursday, Friday?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
All right, Demanda, let's go to the listener questions.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
T asked, where do you think Alan Lamar rank all
time right this moment just his quarterback talents? I'd say
both Top fifteen side question, are the smelling salts going
to ruin your life?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Smelling salts are not going to ruin my life? But
you know, strong recommend if people haven't tried him yet,
especially if you're like maybe trying to kick caffeine or
something like. I haven't right into the put in downsides
of houff pneumonia occasionally, but it sure woke me up.
Where do Lamar and Allen rank just as quarterback talents?
(08:14):
What an interesting question? Top fifteen sounds right like if
I were ranking just quarter just raw talent, quarterbacks. Ever,
that's what Yeah, that's what they're saying, saying all time.
Mahomes Rogers are to me the top two.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Lamar's got to be like top ten at least any
same thing. But I feel like both those guys, those
are electric dudes as far as this talent, like no,
maybe not one, Yeah, those are.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, so I think safely so raw talent, Mahomes raw
Farv has to be up there. Manning has to be
up there. It's a compliment to Brady that we're not
even like saying him with all of his success, because
(09:14):
you know, he maximized everything about his physical ability. Marino's
got to be up there. I always have had a
soft spot for Steve Young. John Elway's up there. And
now we can start talking Lamar and Josh you know
what I mean. Like, so, yeah, the in that bottom
(09:37):
part of the top tens firmly in the top fifteen.
I think that's right. All right, let's go to Ethan.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Ethan asked, as a poker expert who understands the principle
of the plus ev. I'm curious if you take the
same approach into sports gambling, or if you trust your
own personal bias over sharp books.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I don't look at I don't look at sports spending
the way I look at poker. Just for the record,
like I don't, I don't, while I do try every
year to give out winners and to you know, make
you guys money. I I am.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
A little bit more conservative with poker.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
No, I don't know a bit. No, I just look
at it like poker, I am trying to make the
best decision at every point. Sports I have a very
hard time betting against my takes, you know what I mean.
(10:43):
I won't always bet on my takes, but like I
it's why I'll I'll never, even if I'm getting points,
bet against the chiefs, you know what I mean. So like,
there are just certain things that so that's but I
also I and this is how I would recommend it
for other people look at sports betting as a recreational endeavor,
(11:06):
not like, hey, this is how I'm gonna make extra money.
Poker's different in that regard for me. All right, let's
keep going.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Michael ass is Jackson better than Prime Vig?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yes, love Mike, but yes, Lamar is a far already
a far better passer than Mike ever was just you
know what, I mean, he just is and I love Mike,
but that's I think Mike would tell you that next.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Indy, Nick, do you think that everyone is just so
skewed by fantasy football? Josh Lamar have been excellent fantasy quarterbacks,
so people assume that they are the best.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yeah. I think that absolutely is something to do with it.
I absolutely think that the crazy fantasy numbers impact this one.
Hum noah, yeah, no, no, ass When is the Future
show going to happen?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
It's like soon.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, So we have a show Thursday, then we're off
for a week, and then the Our Futures in our
Gambling show will probably be a two part thing Tuesday
and Thursday next week to get us ready for football season,
right in line with predictions week on First Things First,
and Diego says has snakes enthusiast Kevin Wild's weight in
(12:24):
on Demonse's reptiles. That's good. That's a good First Things
First joke, and I appreciate it. UFC three to nineteen
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Speaker 3 (13:26):
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(13:48):
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slash audio.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Andy Reid down played all the naysayers, saying that the
Kansas City's window is closing for the dynasty. Colin was
also one of those naysayers, saying that the winning is over.
Do you think that the win Do you think that
the dynasty is continuable if they win the Super Bowl
this year?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Well, hold on, I don't even think that's obviously. If
they win the super Bowl this year, the dynasty is
in progress. I want to focus more on Listen. I
think it's well established how much I adore and love
Colin Cowherd. His Chiefs takes Now, I mostly blame Jmack.
I think that, like the proximity to Jmax's historically bad
(14:40):
Chiefs takes have somehow there's been an osmosis of take
that has impacted Colin. But they've been to three straight
Super Bowls. They they had the best record in the
NFL last year. They got it to.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
The last one, right, they got it. They made it
to the last super Bowl. Like I think they have
to at least not make a super Bowl for the
dynasty to be over.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Well I would think so, right yeah. And by the way,
like when we talk about dynasties in the NFL, the
Pittsburgh Steelers is probably the most famous one. They won
two super Bowls. They then went two years without making
(15:28):
the Super forget without winning it, without making the super Bowl,
and then they won two more. We look at that
as one dynasty. The Patriots is an interesting one. I
don't consider the Pants one continuous dynasty, but if you do,
(15:48):
it went like this, won a super Bowl, missed the playoffs,
then won two super Bowls, then gosh, I'm gonna have
to do this off the top of my head. Six
going for the three pat lost their first playoff game.
I'm sorry, wait, five going for the three pat It's
(16:09):
gonna be hard to off top my head, but I'm
gonna try. Lost their first playoff game. Six lost in
Round two. Oh seven lost the Super Bowl. OH eight
missed the playoffs. Nine and twenty ten lost before the
Super Bowl. Twenty eleven lost in the super Bowl twenty twelve,
(16:32):
twenty thirteen lost before the Super Bowl, fourteen won the
Super Bowl, fifteen lost in Conference title game, sixteen won
the Super Bowl, seventeen lost the Super Bowl, eighteen won
the Super Bowl, nineteen lost in Round one. So if
we want to do that as one long dynasty, then
it's going to be impossible to say the Chiefs dynasty
(16:55):
is over. If you consider the Patriots one long dynasty.
The Patri's went a decade without winning a Super Bowl.
The Chiefs have gone sixteen months, and so that part's
just ridiculous. It's just fundamentally ridiculous to say I'm declaring
(17:18):
it dead when the Chiefs are in the midst of
or just completed I guess you would say the greatest
three year stretch in the history of the league. And
they have been to three consecutive Super Bowls and seven
straight AFC Championship Games. It's now if your take is
(17:41):
they're just not good enough anymore, it's a bold take,
maybe like there's no evidence for it, But if it's
just your gut feeling, then so be it. Here is
here is what I find the most demands a ridiculous
(18:08):
about this Chief's fatalism stuff, and then we can move
on every team in the AFC that is chasing them.
If this year they have the exact season Kansas City
(18:33):
had last year, best last undefeated team, best record in
the NFL, beat the Chiefs in the AFC playoffs, make
the Super Bowl, lose the super Bowl, it will be
considered evidence that that team is getting closer, and the
(18:57):
best season any of those teams have had in this era,
the Chiefs having that year is considered evidence of implosion.
But I am here to tell you if the Baltimore
Ravens are the final one, or the Buffalo Bills, or
the Cincinnati Bengals, or the Los Angeles Chargers or god forbid,
(19:19):
the Denver Broncos or any of those teams, if they
are the last undefeated team, if they are fifteen to
one with the one seed locked up, they then beat
the Chiefs in the playoffs and then run into I
don't care who call it Philly or no, because Philly
(19:40):
then would go back to back that complicates things, call
it the Lions and get blown out in the Super Bowl.
If that were to happen, and then I were to
go on TV and be like, that's this year was
the end of that team. They're done. Now there is
(20:02):
a time for a new chapter. People would say that, dude,
you're just a hater. And this is also an element
of a lot of my Mahomes frustration in and I'm
(20:23):
going to talk about this on the TV show today
in how he's discussed. Do you agree to Monsday that
all Lamar, josh Ann Burrow the year they had last
year elevated them, even if not in their actual ranking,
(20:44):
but people elevated them their standing, and that people felt
their seasons combined with the year Mahomes had narrowed the
gap for best quarterback, and some people flipped it. You
agree with that, right, That's like conventional wisdom, Okay. And
(21:07):
this is where the point that I make that Mahomes
is not judged against his peers, I think is crystallized.
Let's pretend Patrick this year had any of their seasons
(21:27):
last year. Okay, Let's start with Joe. Patrick puts up
insane numbers and the Chiefs miss the playoffs. Does that
help or does anyone be like, Okay, that helped Patrick's.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Back dynasty is definitely over.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Okay, So all right, let's do Lamar's year. Patrick puts
up insane numbers. The Chiefs are the you know, a
good but not great seed. They're the three, and for
the first time in his career, he does not make
(22:08):
a conference championship game because he loses in round two
to one of the other rival quarterbacks. Does that help
or hurt Patrick's standing?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Who had hurt him?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It would hurt him all right, STU. Josh Patrick wins league,
MVP team has a really good record, they get the
two seed, and then to go back to the super Bowl,
doesn't come through at the end and Josh beats him.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Is anybody then being like, Okay, Patrick has reclaimed or
they're like, oh mvpb damn Josh beat him? Now do
the flip side for any of those guys, all three
of them demons? Give them Patrick's year last year. They
have mediocre stats but lead the league in game winning
(23:04):
drives and comebacks, and he beats two of those guys
en route. I'm sorry, any of the those guys are
the one seed and beat Patrick to get to the
super Bowl. Imagine if I then went on TV and
(23:25):
was like, yeah, but his touch there, you know, Lamar's
touchdown interception ratio wasn't that impressive. I'm actually dinging him.
It's just insane. And so I know I'm the Kansas
City guy. I know I have the tattoo that I
still don't know how to show on camera. I still
(23:46):
don't know what I'm supposed to do here. It's just
a disaster. There we go, I see, I don't even
know what I'm there we go. Well, it's just here's
the thing. It's just boring. It's just boring. And I
(24:06):
I also like just one other thing, because what has
become very in vogue and Bruce says it a lot,
and he and I talked about this, not like d
I'd like to talk about it, but discussed it on
the air the other the other day, which is because
it's become very in vogue to say something along the
(24:29):
lines of like, oh, Mahomes is doing Brady's career in reverse,
where Brady in the beginning won but didn't have the stats,
and Mahomes and then later in his career had the
crazy numbers. Mahomes are but it's just inaccurate. And here's
what I mean. Mahomes early and every year of his
(24:52):
career except the last two first five years one and
had MVP caliber stats and the last two years he's won,
but he hasn't had the crazy numbers until the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
But this idea that Tom Brady post two thousand and
seven was just year in, year out, this statistical monster,
it's just not true. So Tom Brady two thousand and
seven had what at that point the greatest quarterback season ever.
He then misses two thousand and eight due to injury.
(25:28):
Two thousand and nine, tom Brady's team was ten and
six and he had twenty eight touchdowns thirteen interceptions, and
they lost their first playoff game. Then twenty ten, he
had one of the greatest statistical seasons ever thirty six touchdowns,
four picks, and twenty eleven he was in line with
(25:49):
it thirty nine touchdowns, twelve picks, and then twenty twelve
it's down to a ninety eight passer rating and twenty
thirteen twenty five touchdowns, eleven picks and in eighty seven rating.
That's in twenty thirteen, and then obviously twenty fourteen, they
(26:12):
win the Super Bowl. Twenty fifteen, he has an all
time twenty fifteen sixteen to seventeen all time stats years
where he has a combined doing the math on the fly,
ninety six touchdowns, fifteen picks, a one toh eight rating
over the course of three years. But then the very
next year twenty eighteen, they go eleven to five. He
(26:35):
is twenty nine touchdowns eleven picks, but they win the
Super Bowl twenty nineteen twenty four touchdowns, eight picks in
eighty eight rating and leaves the Patriots and then goes
on the sick run in Tampa. The point I'm making
is this, even Pete Brady had these season like the
season where it's like, oh, twenty nine touchdowns, eleven picks,
(26:57):
twenty four touchdowns, eight picks, twenty five touch downs eleven picks,
it was not every single year statistical excellence. It was
every single year when the division make the playoffs, and
it is at the tail end of his Patriots tenure,
every single year make a conference championship game. But it's
just it's we've got to be honest about what real
(27:22):
expectations are, and we've got to be honest about what
the guys who are allegedly in Patrick's league. If Patrick
had the season they just had, and they just had
the season Patrick just had, how would we view it
that's all I'm saying. Hey, guys, talking about my friends
(27:45):
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Speaker 2 (28:37):
So, a couple QB polls came out, quarterback rankings, whatever
you want to call them. So Bill Simmons debuted his
quarterback pyramid and he had Josh Allen at the top.
Dan Orlofsky came out with a bunch of traits that
quarterback sho have is about six and had Patrick mahomes
number one and about the same amount of categories as
Daniel Jones.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
So which one? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, zero? So which one of these is? And raging
you more? Which one do you want to ask?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Oh, It's definitely Simmons's. And we're gonna deep dive on
it because it is not lost on me that my
pal and I like Bill. Bill and I have a
good relationship. But it is not lost to me that
Bill Simmons kind of kicks off his full NFL coverage
(29:23):
with a podcast that debuts a quarterback pyramid and whose
main guest is Kevin Wilds. I'm not saying that Bill
that this was a direct shot at me and you know,
trying to pull apart. First things first, but I'm not
saying it wasn't. So I'll get to Bill in a second.
(29:45):
But on Orlofsky's thing, listen, I'm not gonna I'm not
gonna argue with Dan. Dan obviously knows the quarterback position
better than me. I what I am gonna say is
this arm strength. He is Josh Allen one, Patrick two,
no problem. I actually agree with that, and I actually
(30:07):
think you could be tricky with that one. There might
be you might be able to say Herbert could be
ahead of Patrick Hell. I don't know if Joe Milton's
availed eligible, like he could be like that just the
raw arm strength, Josh Allen one is totally fine, no
beef whatsoever. Then it gets dumb ball placement. Patrick Mahomes
(30:33):
five behind Joe Burrow again fine, Jaden, Lamar and Josh.
You know, I think that's a good take. I think
a lot of people watch Lamar, Josh and Jaden and
they're like, they can just put it where they want
(30:53):
better than Patrick Mahomes.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I was just thinking, like, how much of Burrows is
the fact that he has those crazy you are receivers.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
They're just gonna well, No, I think Burrow is like
dumb accurate because he has to be because he's not
very fast and he doesn't have the strongest arm. So
the only way he can be as successful as he
is is like I think Burrow would maybe win the
contest of that net drill that Caleb failed the other
(31:22):
day if they did that, but like made it harder
and harder and harder. I think Burrow might be my
number one pick. But call me crazy in that drill,
I wouldn't take Lamar over Patrick. Again, maybe I'm a hater.
Next one, we get to mechanics where you list ten
quarterbacks and Patrick's not one of them. And let me
tell you again, he has Lamar four. Yeah, I watch
(31:49):
Lamar play quarterback, and I'm like, man, if only Patrick
had as clean of mechanics as Lamar does, I do like,
I feel that way. I think it's a good take
the other ones. And again again like the if Geno,
Dak and Golf have better mechanics than Patrick, then maybe
mechanics are overrated. But mechanics didn't. Again, Patrick didn't make
(32:12):
the top ten decision making with the football. Patrick came
in fifth. Again I and then this is the this
is the one that really I couldn't. I couldn't get
over pocket presence Burrow one, Lamar two, Patrick three. Okay,
like whatever, I'm not gonna I don't even I don't
(32:35):
even know what we're doing here. But fine, that's Orlowsky's list.
He has a more fine tuned I for quarterback than me.
I suppose I think it is. I disagree with some
of those, but that's not my real beef. My real
beef is with Bill, because Bill debuts his quarterback pyramid
(32:58):
and has Josh Allen at the top. And the problem
with that is, and here's the problem with having as
long and as successful a career as Bill Simmons has had,
and a career that so many folks, myself included obviously,
(33:23):
literally grew up reading every single one of your sports
takes because Bill's column was must read for every sports
fan of my generation for more than a decade. The
problem with having that level of influence and being having
(33:48):
that long of a career is ear muffs, kids, We
remember what you fucking wrote. And for fifty f teen years,
Bill fought tooth and nail against the idea that anyone
(34:12):
would ever, under any circumstances consider Peyton Manning better than
Tom Brady, even though for the entirety of those fifteen years,
Peyton had a strong, a far stronger case to be
(34:33):
considered better than Peyton Manning. I'm sorry that. Let me
back that up. Peyton had a far stronger case to
be considered better than Brady then Josh would have right
now to be considered better than Patrick. And this is
where all of these quarterback rankings are going. To be
(34:56):
self defeating. But let me just quick off the top
of my damn head, give you the Peyton versus Tom
first decade history. Win again a reminder, my pal Bill
built part of his massive empire on the take that
(35:22):
Tom Brady is better than Peyton Manning. If we go
two thousand to two thousand and five, Peyton has peeled MVPs,
but Peyton is zero to two in the playoffs against Tom.
Tom has three championships, Peyton has none. Peyton has never
been to a Super Bowl. So even though Peyton Manning
(35:43):
statistically speaking, was the far superior quarterback with MVPs, he
had never beaten Tom in a big spot. The championships
were three to nothing. Then in two thousand and six,
Peyton not only wins another I'm sorry, he's already won
two MVPs at that point, plays Tom in the AFC
(36:05):
Championship game. Tom's up I think twenty one to three
at halftime. Peyton comes all the way back and wins
the Super Bowl, wins, it beats Tom, and the playoffs
are now two to one. Peyton wins the Super Bowl,
and Bill, I think justifiably is still even though in
(36:25):
that moment all pros. Peyton has multiple tom As zero.
MVPs Peyton has multiple tom As zero. The playoff win
loss record is two to one. The rings are three
to one. Bill is still strident, steadfast correct Tom's better,
(36:45):
seemingly vindicated by the fact that the next year Tom
finally wins his first MVP team goes undefeated. They look
like one of the greatest teams ever until as double
digit favorites, they get beat in the Super Bowl. In
that moment, even though the rings were three to one,
(37:06):
the MVPs were two to one, the all pros were
two to one or three to one, I'm not sure,
and the playoff win loss record was two to one
in Tom's direction in that moment, if anyone had debuted
the take, Peyton has passed Tom because Tom didn't win
(37:30):
the Super Bowl last year, Bill's head would have exploded.
And then, by the way, over the next decade, Tom
never beat Peyton in the playoffs again. There was a
brief time in Denver where it looked like maybe Peyton
had kind of overtaken the argument, and then Tom went
(37:50):
on that unbelievable twenty fourteen through twenty twenty run to
cemended himself as the goat. But every single football take
we have heard for twenty years from Bill Simmons has
(38:12):
valued playoff performance, doing it in the biggest spots. And
if you've got the belt, someone's got to come take
it from you. So when I saw the clip yesterday,
(38:33):
where the rationale for elevating Josh Allen, who is again
unlike Peyton Brady, where Peyton had the stats and Brady
had the wins, Maholmes has moral pros, more MVPs, better
career numbers, five trips to the Super Bowl to zero,
(38:58):
three rings to zero, and is four and zero in
the playoffs against him. When I hear the argument that
Mahomes played so poorly in the Super Bowl, he falls
down a peg without the obvious follow up being why
(39:25):
wasn't Josh in the Super Bowl? Bill? Because he couldn't
beat Patrick again? And that is where and again, I
think Josh is the second best quarterback in the league.
Now that Josh has a league MVP, I'm comfortable calling
(39:46):
him a future Hall of Famer. I think Josh eventually
is going to break through. I think Josh's ability last
year to cut down on the turnovers and still care
a team that wasn't all that talented at the skill position,
certainly on the outside was wildly impressive. But we have
(40:11):
to stop acting like these have been unfair fights, or
Josh hasn't had his chance in back to back years
in the playoffs. Once in Josh's building, once in Patrick's building,
(40:33):
Josh has gotten the ball late fourth quarter, down three
points the first time. He can only get them to
not the edge of field goal range, but not a
gimme field goal forty four yard or if I remember,
(40:55):
and that would have only gotten them the tie. With
a couple of minutes left. There's a chance, finish the game,
ball in your hands. Don't let Patrick come back and
get it. They come away with zero points. Then last
year down three Conference championship game, plenty of time, can't
(41:18):
get to midfield, So do not do you cannot. And
this is why the quarterback ranking stuff right now can
be so frustrating for people. Has Patrick played in the
regular season his best ball in the last couple of years? No,
(41:39):
but who are again? And I've said it before, I
will say it again if you want to argue, you
know what, Jalen Hurts is the best quarterback in the league.
I don't think anyone actually believes that, except for maybe
Jalen's lovely mother, who dressed me down a bit the
(42:01):
night before the Super Bowl. I don't even think Jalen
believes that. But if you want to argue that, at
least there is a case you can make. But for
the other three guys, as I sat a moment ago,
the argument becomes instantly self defeating. Burrows' claim to fame
(42:25):
is what he did in the first two the first
postseason and a half of his career, going into Arrowhead,
beating Patrick, getting to the Super Bowl, then getting back
to the AFC Championship Game, and then he had a
(42:45):
pretty miserable second half with a chance to go to
a second straight Super Bowl, got the ball, tie game,
go get a field goal, got negative yards, loses, and
has not been back to the postseason since. There is
no time in the history of Pro football when there
(43:07):
have been multiple first ballot Hall of Famers active in
their prime where we would say a guy elevated himself
to best quarterback in the league in a two year
stretch where he plays zero playoff games not eligible. Lamar,
(43:27):
who's in the midst of arguably as good of a
two year regular season stretch as any player at his
position ever when that player to varying degrees, and this
past year was the most positive sign has come up
(43:52):
against the other two guys who he is in the
debate with for who's the best and both games gotten
out played by and lost to in the postseason Patrick
(44:17):
two years ago and Josh last year. He's not gonna
have it. And across all of sports except for maybe
there were some people arguing Jerry West was better than
Bill Russell. But with respect, as great as the Mahomes
(44:38):
Reid Chiefs are, they are not the institutionally top to
bottom more talented team like the Russell Celtics. We have
never made an argument that win every single year for
a half decade, one guy beats an out plays another
(45:01):
guy in the postseason that the other guy's better. It's
a again for the entirety of Peyton versus Brady, when
Peyton was a cult that whole decade plus. They only
(45:21):
played in the postseason three times and it was two
to one Tom, and it was still framed correctly as
if Tom held over him in the postseason. Imagine if
they played four times and it was four to zero
and So again, this is what I would ask my
(45:41):
pal Bill if Tom had beaten Peyton in six and
then gone on to lose that Super Bowl, and he
was up three to zero in the playoffs and the
ring count was three zero and the super Bowl count
was for zero, and someone made the argument that Peyton
(46:07):
Manning was better based on Tom playing poorly in this
make believe two thousand and six super Bowl, what would
your reaction have been? And the answer as we know, so,
can we please please have a level of consistency on this,
(46:34):
that's all. Honestly, that didn't go quite as long as
I thought. And again I'm not trying to act like
I invented the pyramid style ranking of quarterbacks. What I
will say is, if you're going to really do it,
each level has to be one player bigger than the previous.
(46:58):
You can't go one, two, three, four five, five, five
five five. That's not the idea that that's not how
a pyramid looks either at the and I mean it's
just not. I mean I don't either. That's a crayon.
That's how a crayon looks, not how a pyramid looks.
That's first of all. Second of all, my Buddy Kate
(47:20):
W could have given you pointers on that when he
was on the pod with you.
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Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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