February 3, 2021 • 45 mins
This week on Wins & Losses, Clay Travis is joined by Senator Ted Cruz. The two talk about the upcoming Super Bowl, and also about the importance of sports being able to lead the charge to a sense and return to normalcy during the pandemic. The two also discuss censorship in the world of Big Tech, as well as the NBA’s relationship with China. Clay also asks Senator Cruz about his favorite team, the Houston Rockets, as well as the entire Houston sports landscape.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome in Wins and Lost his podcast. We have been
rolling up a lot of these interviews of late with
a great bevy of fascinating people in the world of sports,
media and politics. We are joined now by the Senator
from Texas, one of the senators from Texas. He is
Ted Cruz, Senator Cruz. It's super Bowl week. People may
be listening to this well after the Super Bowl. So
I'll put you on the spot early with a tough question.
(00:22):
Who do you think gets it done here? Do you
think the Chiefs or do you think that the Bucks
are going to be the Super Bowl champ when the
NFL season finishes, Well, I think we're gonna have a
close game and uh Brady has certainly shown an ability
to pull it out against impossible odds. That being said,
Mahomes is a is a beast and so so if
you if you push me, I'd say it's probably Kansas
(00:44):
Cities game. We have spent a lot of time on
this show, as I know you have seen, and we've
interacted a decent amount on social media, pushing as hard
as we possibly can for sports to be played, not
just pro sports, high school sports, college sports. How important
do you think it has been for sports too, in
many ways lead the way in showing how things are
(01:05):
able to get done in America as opposed to curling
up in the fetal position and saying the challenges are
too are too much, we can't find a way to
get through and continue our business, continue our play during COVID. Well, look,
I think it is important that that people be able
to go to their jobs, go to work, provide for
(01:26):
their kids, provide for their families, and people are seeing
through sports that it's possible that it can happen. Listen.
I think the NBA, the way they did the bubble
for the playoffs last year was was very well done.
I mean that the fact that they pulled it off
right in fairly early in the pandemic was was impressive. Uh,
(01:47):
And I think it was. You know, it's a contrast
contrast that's say two movies. I'm a huge movie buff.
I love movies. You know, Hollywood is essentially shut down,
Broadway is shut down. You know, think of of the
thousands of people who are unemployed. And you know, not
just big, big, fancy movie stars who have the resources
to to make it through it, but you know, people
(02:09):
who work on lighting and gaffers and carpenters and electricians
who the entire industry is devastated and and thankfully sports
has done a better job of of showing that that
that we can try to be safe and protect people,
but but not utterly destroy their livelihoods at the same time.
It is really emblematic I think of where America has
(02:32):
gone that you now hear people say it's brave and
courageous when people say we can't do something right. I mean,
and you know, your family has an immigrant background as well,
like like most people who were in America on some
level came here from somewhere else. Right. The idea that
we are now praising people when they say, oh, it's
(02:53):
impossible to do something is fundamentally to me, the opposite
of what America should stand for. I think that's right.
And if you look at different jurisdictions, there as some
jurisdictions that have shut everything down. And and you know,
if you're a restaurant owner in New York City, I mean,
I think it is just unconscionable what they've done. They've
(03:13):
just destroyed small businesses. You know that that sometimes may
have been built by two three generations of families, and
you've seen politicians just cavalierly shut them down. Um, I
think we ought to be able to walk and shootgum.
At the same time, we can't totally eliminate risk, you know,
(03:35):
I mean, if you if you know, I guess we
could all lock ourselves in a bubble and never never
interact with with anyone on planet Earth, and that would
that would reduce risk. But that's not a not a
world anyone who wants to live in. And and so
I think we need some some common sense. Um. And
and I will say I think Texas by and large
has followed that path where we've taken the pandemic seriously,
(03:59):
but we've also small businesses to be able to open
and and a restaurant spreads out a little bit more.
I mean, you take reasonable protective steps, but you don't
just obliterate people's entire livelihoods. You know. It's it's a
fascinating window into the importance of federalism. And I don't
know in our lives that it has ever mattered more
(04:19):
who the governor of your state happened to be than
right now right, and who the mayor of your city
might have been. Because we've got all these different little
laboratories to deal with COVID, and you mentioned Texas. I
think Florida and Texas, among the big states, have clearly
done the best at balancing risk while also maintaining people's
(04:40):
ability to continue their livelihood. And you contrast that with
New York and with California, and it's not a surprise.
I was looking at the data on net migrations. The
three states I live in, Tennessee, the three states that
have gained the most residents during this whole mess of
COVID Tennessee, Texas, and Florida. What do they all have
(05:01):
in common? They have figured out a way to keep
businesses open while also trying to protect their residents. Meanwhile,
people are fleeing from New York, Illinois, and California, three
of the most restrictive places in the entire country. It's
an interesting laboratory to study their response and see who
has done the best job in a way that many
(05:21):
countries who are more national in scope might not have
had those different laboratories to examine. Yeah, that that that
that is exactly right. Um. You know a stat that
that I've cited for some time is the cost of
a one way U haul from California to Texas. It
used to be it was three more to go from
California to Texas that it was to go the other
(05:43):
way around. It's actually risen more than that. So right now,
to get a twenty four ft U haul from San
Francisco to Austin, Texas cost five thousand dollars. To take
the same truck back cost nine eight six dollars because
all the traffic is going one way. That's right, nobody
go on the up. It's fascinating. That's actually a really
(06:03):
great data point. That pathway that you're talking about Senator
crews from Austin, I mean from San Francisco to Austin.
Also San Francisco to Miami, San Francisco, Nashville. Big tech
is starting to break up that corporate hegemony that had
existed in San Francisco. I know you have a lot
of concerns about this, as do I. I don't try
(06:24):
to get incredibly partisan on a day to day basis,
certainly not with my shows. But the thing that I
believe in is the marketplace of ideas. And I don't
think there's any doubt by anyone who is active on
social media that we don't have a full fledged marketplace
of ideas in the American ecosystem like we have in
past years. What should be done to big tech companies
(06:46):
that are making the decision to pull Parlor off of
their servers, like Amazon did to not allow certain apps
to be available at Apple or at Google. This idea
of hey, you don't have the right to spread your
particular viewpoint if it conflates or conflicts with ours is
to me fundamentally scary because, as you know, many of
(07:10):
the great ideas that emerge in American thought initially were
considered to be ludicrous and absurd, but because of the
marketplace of ideas, they were able to gain cogency and acceptance.
And that's how our country evolves in an intelligent and
efficacious manner. Look, I think that is exactly right. And
I think the power of big tech uh is the
(07:33):
single greatest threat we have to free speech in this country.
And it's the greatest threat we have to our democracy.
That that we right now have a handful of Silicon
Valley billionaires with with almost total monopoly power over over
political discourse and just about every other form of discourse today,
and and and they're getting more and more brazen in
(07:55):
how they use that power to silence those views they
don't like, in the ample by those views they do.
And it's you know, they've always been biased journalists. That
that that that's not new in the world. From the
very first time the first journalists were carving words on
a stone tablet, there were biased journalists. What's different is
(08:16):
that that big tech has power that that William Randolph
Hurst at the height of yellow journalism, could not have imagined.
Because they control seventy plus percent of people's political news
is coming online, it's coming through social media, and and
their bias is invisible as well. If they don't like
(08:39):
what you say, you simply disappear. They can shadow bang you,
they can throttle you, and there's zero accountability. And and
we've seen just the last few months, we saw we
saw Facebook and Twitter both blocking The New York Post,
the fourth largest newspaper, decreed, we're shutting you down. And
(09:00):
we've seen them d platform. The President of the United
States just said, Okay, we don't like Donald Trump. He's
no longer allowed to speak. We've seen them, as you
put it out, what they did to Parlor and what
they did to Parlor was blatantly illegal and violated the
antitrust laws. And I fully expect that they will pay
a big judgment because because you had multiple competitors working
(09:20):
together in concert to destroy another competitor, and and that
that is illegal, and they don't care and and it
is a massive threat. And unfortunately, right now with with
Democrats in charge of Washington, the Democrats want big tech
to do more of this, not less. They're in favor
(09:43):
of big tech censorship and and so I expect the
problem to get worse before it gets better. What's interesting,
Senator Cruise about Parlor in particular, And we both have
legal background, so I always try to talk for an
audience that might not People say, well, if you violate
Twitter's user agreement, then you don't have the right to
speak to your audience through Twitter. And then so Parlor
(10:05):
was actually created to guarantee that if people didn't have
the ability to reach their audience through Twitter, they could
start their own company which had a different genesis of
what their ideas were going to be. And then Amazon
Web Services, uh, and also Google and Apple. Amazon said
(10:27):
we're not gonna host you. Google and Apple said we're
not going to allow your app to be downloaded, and
they effectively. I mean, I think this is an analogy
that people can understand. It's a book burning by Amazon,
which was a company that was founded to sell books.
They have eliminated the largest amount of opinion from being
able to be shared in America, probably in the twenty
(10:49):
one century anywhere. No dictator could have made the decision
that Jeff Bezos did to shut down as many people
instantaneously as he did. Uh. And we've basically have created
our own Chinese wall, but it's being now monitored by,
as you said, billionaires in Silicon Valley. I think that's
exactly right. And as I said, they're getting more and
(11:12):
more brazen about it. Um. Now, how you solved it
is a complicated question. I've spent a lot of time
the last several years sharing multiple hearings in the Senate
on censorship with big Tech and detailing, uh, detailing all
the instances of censorship. We've seen the solution. Listen, nobody
(11:32):
wants to see a federal government speech police. That would
be a terrible thing. But there are solutions that that
are consistent with law that also protect free speech. One solution,
so right now, Big Tech has a special immunity from
liability under what's called Section to thirty of the Communications
Decency Act that that Congress gave it to Big Tech
(11:57):
twenty years ago, and and it functions us like corporate welfare.
It's a benefit that nobody else gets and only big
Tech gets. The reason big Tech got that immunity from
liability is because Congress understood that big Big Tech was
going to be a neutral public forum. In other words,
it wasn't gonna put its finger on the scale. It
(12:17):
was gonna let people speak. And so the reasoning was, well,
it's not fair to hold them liable for what other
people are saying if it's a public forum where anyone
can speak. Well, big Tech has decided to abandon that.
They are nakedly and brazenly censoring. And if they're going
to do that, there's no reason on earth that they
should have a special immunity from liability nobody else gets. Secondly,
(12:40):
the antitrust laws. By any measure, big Tech is bigger.
It's more powerful than a T and T was when
it was broken up under the anti trust laws. It's
bigger and more powerful than standard oil was when it
was broken up under the antitrust laws and and it
has long been existing laws that you cannot abuse monopoly power,
which is what they're doing. And then the third avenue
(13:03):
that that that I think needs to be pursued. It
is a claim that that that sounds in in fraud
and consumer protection, and it's essentially this the agreement you
make with big tech when you sign up for a
social media account. The promise they're making to you is
that if you follow someone, you'll see what they have
(13:24):
to say, and if they follow you, they'll see what
you have to say. Big Tech is breaking that promise.
They're deciding if they don't like what you have to say.
The people who have chosen I want to follow Kate
Clay Travis, well, if they don't like what you have
to say, they don't get to hear what you say,
even though they want to hear what you say. And
and that is fundamentally fraudulent and deceptive. And I think
(13:46):
with the Biden administration, you're not going to see any
federal government pressure on this, So it's gonna have to
come from state attorneys general. It's gonna have to come
in the states, and it's gonna have to come from
private litigation, and I expect quite a bit litigation, particularly
as a big tech gets more and more brazen. I
think we're gonna see more and more litigation directed that
(14:07):
you'll be fascinated by this. I've talked a little bit
about it on the show. We had Donald Trump on
this radio program, OutKick the coverage that that I most twice.
The first time that we had him on, we wrote
about it a lot of OutKick UH and Facebook. In
the week after we had Trump on, we lost seventy
percent of our Facebook traffic. Like you can watch if
(14:30):
if we pull a graph and we show you we wrote,
you know, four or five different articles because he was
talking about whether or not college football should play. To
his credit in the White House's credit, they fought as
hard as they possibly could to help us make sure
that college football happens. Most of the stories that we
were talking about him with were almost entirely sports related.
We wrote about it, right the President United States comes
(14:51):
on my show, We're going to write about it on
the website that that I own as well, right to
help share that information. We lost seventy p of our
Facebook traffic UH and our data analysts said it was
because Donald Trump's name was appearing in so many of
our articles, and it was not a negative characterization, right.
It was like President Trump is in favor of college
(15:13):
football being played. Right, our data people went back and
looked at it. That's Facebook. It's an unbelievable power that
they have. As soon as we stopped writing about Donald Trump,
over the next week, our traffic went right back up.
But we can directly go to that and say they
cost us tens of thousands of dollars in the way
they responded to us writing about Donald Trump coming on
(15:34):
the radio program. Now, one one thing we could say,
if we were purely looking to maximize revenue, is we
would say, oh, Facebook is dinging us. They are telling
us we can't write anything positive about Donald Trump. As
long as we don't, our revenue will stay the same.
But the minute we go positive on Trump, our revenue collapsed.
We can legitimately show you that him coming on our
(15:54):
radio program cost us tens of thousands of dollars. That
is powerful and and it is entirely consistent with the
conduct they're doing in multiple other instances. You know, one
of the hearings I shared in the Senate, Dr Robert
Epstein testified. Uh. He is a psychologist, and he has
done uh, just about the only empirical research on bias
(16:20):
and Google searches and and he did it initially in
twos sixteen where he examined Google searches and and the
biased outcome that that leans to the left. And he
concluded that Google's bias searches shifted two point six million
votes to the Democrats, to Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump.
(16:41):
Now here's the interesting thing. Clay dr Epstein is not
a Republican. He is a liberal Democrat who voted for
Hillary Clinton and and and who publicly campaigned for Hillary Clinton.
And yet he was horrified that that big tech has
the power to just manipulate voters and deceive them. And
(17:01):
and that that was four years ago. They're they're much
worse now because they feel that that nothing is holding
the back, there are no limits. It is terrifying, fascinating,
And I think the story of our age, the other
big story of our age, I think big tech is
one of the massive story censorship, cancel culture, the way
(17:22):
that all of that roles together with identity politics. The
other one is China. And to me, for the world
of sports, what happened with Darryl Moray, who is down
in Houston, in your home state of Texas, when he
came out and supported Hong Kong democracy. The NBA, which
wants to claim that it is a bastion of social
(17:44):
justice warriordom, that they are worried about being on the
right and wrong side of history. Amazing silence, right, Lebron James,
who speaks out all the time, didn't have a word
to say other than sometimes the First Amendment can be
a bad thing, which is an amazing quote to have. Uh.
Greg popa bitch who I'm gonna get to in a minute,
Steve Kerr. They pop off on everything that the president
(18:04):
was doing, Donald Trump. They don't say a word about China.
So I want to circle around on on China a
little bit, and in particular the NBA's relationship with China.
Greg Popovich, Uh went after you. I saw quotes recently.
I know Mark Cuban has come after you. Mark Cuban
has has come after me for people out there, obviously
Dallas Mavericks, Mark Cuban, as well as Greg Popovich of
(18:27):
the San Antonio Spurs. Uh. When you hear Greg Popovitch,
I know you're a basketball fan. I know you've liked
to watch the NBA over the years. When you hear
Greg Popovitch going after you, when Mark Cuban is going
after you for your political opinions, but they won't say
a word about genocide in China. About I saw recently
(18:47):
an article I was reading today about forced rape of
weaker women by by people in China, and they're using literal,
literal slave labor to make their products. Nike is uh.
The NBA has had their own factory of basketball uh
in that province where the wagers are being held in
(19:08):
concentration camps. How about that hypocrisy that they would not
say a word about that, but they come after you
for your political opinions. Well, it's it's massive hypocrisy. And
and the the n b A and and pro sports
in general made a big bet that there's a whole
lot of money to be made in China, and they're
willing to look the other way on on torture and
(19:32):
murder and horrific human rights abuses because they stand to
make a big buck. So so Daryl Morey sent a
really mild tweet to start this all. Stand with Hong Kong,
Stand Stand for liberty and democracy. I think it's what
he said. Um and and by the way, he was right,
because they've taken it away. Of course he was right.
(19:53):
But but it illustrates a couple of things. Number One, look,
you and I know who Darryl Mori is. I'm a
die hard Rockets and I bleed Rockets read. But but
most people in the country didn't know who Daryl Morey was.
Frankly when he sent the tweet that that was not
going to be heard by a whole lot of people
until the Chinese communists lost their minds and they freaked
out about it because so terrified of criticism. And and
(20:18):
the one friendly amendment I'd make to what you just
said is you said the NBA state silent about it. No,
they did worse than state silent about it, which is
they groveled an apology and they and by the way,
what did what did? What did China do? It shut
down all of the Rockets and NBA sales of of
(20:39):
uniforms in China. Of course we used to have Yao Ming,
so actually the Rockets a very popular team in China.
They shut that all down. Lebron James blasted Maury for
saying that he was defending China, said all more, he
doesn't understand China. Really, Lebron, what is there to understand
about concentration camps and murder and torture. But look, you
(21:01):
understand what Lebron is interested in. You understand what Mark
Cuban is interested in. They're interested in bucks. They're interested
in Mark Cuban is making millions of dollars by making
the communist government in China happy. And they have total
control over whether Mark Cuban makes that money or not.
And so the NBA, it's about the Benjamin's and and
(21:25):
so you know, look this last NBA season when they
had the ridiculous uh practice of putting all the NBA
players having slogans on the back of their u uh
back of their jerseys. You know, I and a number
of other people said, okay, how about free Hong Kong. Yeah,
how about remember Tanneman square. I mean, look, you're all
for political speech. Oh no, no, no, no no, just the
(21:47):
political speech that happens to agree with everything in your politics.
That's the only speech you'll allow it. It's massive hypocrisy.
You mentioned that you're a Houston Rockets fan. Um Die
died in the wool, long time Houston Rockets in total
sports question here for you. Do you think that the
Rockets would have won the two championships that they did
(22:08):
if Michael Jordan hadn't retired. That tells me that you
are a huge Houston Rockets fan, because that's that's Houston
Rocket fandom to the core. And listen. And I adored
Jordan's I mean, I mean, it's it's I think Jordan
is the greatest it's ever played on on on the
Jordan Lebron debate. I don't even think it's close. But
(22:30):
that's so ninety four when the Rockets won our first finals.
I was at game seven when we beat the Knicks,
when John Starks went oh for eleven. I mean it
was and it was in the summit. Kilson had never
won a championship at any sports and and and it
will remain the sports highlight of my life. Where afterwards
you had businessmen in three piece suits crying and hugging
(22:53):
homeless man. I mean, it brought the city together. A
la Juan was extraordinary. He dominated. Um. I've actually got
sitting next to me in my office right now, a
piece of the floor from from the from the summit
signed by that ninety four Rockets. Oh that's awesome. Where
(23:13):
were you sitting, by the way, how old were you
in ninety four? So ninety four, I was twenty four.
I was in law school, and I had the incredible
good luck. I was working at a law firm in
Houston as a summer associate called Baker Bots, and baker
Bots happens to represent the Rockets. And I worked there
two summers ninety four and ninety five, the two years
we won the finals, and and so like. I went
(23:36):
to the firm early on and I said, look, you
don't need to take me out to launch or dinner.
You know often when for the summer programs they wine
and dine students quite a bit. I said, don't buy
me a meal all all summer long. I'll have hot
dogs at the Hot Ducks stand downstairs. Just get me
to the games. That's all I ask is, I want
to go to the games. And so I went to
a bunch of the games, and and and it's kind
(23:58):
of a funny story. So for Games seven, the firm
was not going to send the summer associates to the game.
They decided they were going to send the associates, the
people who were already working at the firm there instead.
And I went into the lawyer who was the kind
of lead lawyer for the Rockets, and and I went
in with another buddy of mind. We were both summer associates.
And I said, uh I, I said, Mike um Amy
(24:21):
and I we we've decided we've got to go to
Game seven and and so we're just gonna go to
a scalp or we're gonna buy tickets. We just we
can't let this happen and not go. And and I said,
you know, do you know any scalpers maybe where we
could get some decent rates. And we just looked at him,
and he looked at us for about thirty seconds in silence,
and he just cracked up laughing. He's like, all right,
(24:43):
damn it, I'll get you tickets, but you can't tell
anyone else. And I said, done, done, And so I
ended up getting tickets for for faith value was seventy
five bucks. And I was seated right behind one of
the backboards and I was seeing it kind of right
to the side side of where Dr J and Bob
Costas were broadcasting the game, and and actually part of
(25:07):
The fun was when the during the commercial breaks, uh,
dr J was bust In Costas going, man, you're Nick suck.
That was the funniest part of the whole game, was
just hearing dr J do that off camera. Fox Sports
Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation.
(25:29):
Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot
com and within the I Heart Radio app search f
s R to listen live. That was an amazing run.
So the NTO game seven, Patrick Ewing never gets it
done out there for people. I mean, that was an
amazing series and like you mentioned, John Starks just fell
apart now the next year to help the Rockets argument.
(25:50):
And by the way, this is the Wins and Losses Podcast.
I'm Clay Travis. We're talking to Senator Ted Cruz of Texas.
Jordan's came back, ended up losing that series to the
Orlando Magic, and then you guys win a second title
before Jordan wins. Is three in a row. For some
guys out there are young, they may not remember that
that era of nineties era NBA basketball, which by the way,
is I think the peak, the absolute peak of the
(26:12):
NBA in America. Well, I had always defined my perfect
basketball game would be a game Rockets against the Bulls
in the finals, game seven. Uh, to have the Rockets win,
but to have Jordan's score a hundred points and break
Wilts record. Yeah. And and I never was a Scottie
(26:32):
Pippen fan, so I actually finished it off with and
have Pippin playing for the Bulls tip the ball in
accidentally in our bucket, the winning basket for us. Did
you watch the Last Dance by the Way documentary? Every
minute of it? And I think my favorite moment is
when they play Gary Peyton talking about covering uh, covering
(26:55):
Jordan and Jordan's laugh about you know, I think I
could handle the of it was so real, it was incredible.
It was. That's such a great nostalgic time back, like
the Dennis Rodman stories. You knew in the nineties that
those were great, but there's so much more fun. I mean,
that nineties era Bowl team is I think the most
(27:17):
beloved American sporting franchise ever. Right, you're a Rockets fan.
I didn't grow up with a particular affinity for a team,
but I was obsessed with the nineties arab Bles, and
I think a huge number of people out there listening are,
and it was because they were just such an exhilarating
team to play and Jordan himself is I think that
(27:38):
the signature achievement. I don't know if you go to
a concert or you go to watch someone who has
to put on a performance. He was so incredible every
night that I don't think people really who haven't experienced him.
You mentioned the Jordan's versus Lebron argument. The amount of
intensity and effort he brought to bear, whether it was
a random Tuesday night in the fourteenth game of the
(27:59):
season or whether it was Game seven of the NBA
Finals is unmatched I think ever in the history of basketball. Look,
I completely agree, and where I think Jordan took it
to another level is at the end of any game
that was close, that mattered, you knew Jordan was going
to have the ball, you knew he was going to
take the shot, you knew he was going to be
(28:19):
triple teamed, and you know he was gonna make it.
I mean, it was you know that there's all the
you know truisms, things like you know, ice water in
the veins, but it's just it was a level of
just stone cold killer that that. I mean, he would
always always perform. By the way, I'll give you a
(28:43):
a fantasy alternative universe, which is if you remember the Rockets,
we had two years in a row. We had back
to back number one draft picks. We picked Ralph Sampson
first year, the second year we picked a la Juan.
That draft that a la Juan came out. Jordan was
also in the draft. A large one was drafted number one.
The Bulls drafted Jordan number three. Sam Booie went number two.
(29:06):
Who was washed in there between those two. I believe, yep,
that's exactly right. And and look, you can't fault Houston
for drafting a la Juan. He was coming out of
University of Houston. Vice slamm A Jamma. I mean it was.
It was a great, great pick. But imagine if Houston
had gone to the Bulls and said, will trade you
(29:26):
Ralph Sampson, who we drafted the year earlier with the
number one pick and he just one rookie of the year,
will trade you Ralph Sampson for the number three pick.
We could have drafted a la Juan and Jordan's that
would have been. That would have been That would have
been one hell of a team, even a little bit
better than Bill Cartwright. I think in Bill Winnington, we're
talking to Senator Ted Cruz. What do you think about
(29:48):
James Harden. You're you're a Rockets fan. You had those
moments in You've Gotten close. I know you had another
game seven where you guys couldn't hit a three four
for every dollar on the I mean that was probably
tough for you to watch. That was twenty three miss
threes in a row or whatever the heck it was. Um,
what do you think about Harden going to Brooklyn? What
do you think about the future of the Rockets? Oh,
(30:08):
look at my heart is sad at at Harden leaving.
He's one hell of an offensive force. You're right that
game where we could only shoot threes? Like did nobody
remember how to drive to the basket? Like like okay, fine,
you're not hitting threes, Like do something else, damn it,
get to the foul line. But but we couldn't do that.
I'm sad to see hard and go because he's extraordinary
(30:31):
and historic and the offensive outpit. But the last Cup
three years is unmatched. I mean, the numbers you have
to go back to to Chamberlain to find anything even
close that being sad. Listen, I'm this This new team
is kind of growing on me. I mean it's it's
it came together kind of eclectically. But but you know,
(30:52):
John wall if he if he can stay healthy, he
looks like he's got speed, he's got agility. Oladipo is
a heck of a player. Um Eric gordon As has
been playing very strong, and I'm really liking Boogie Cousins.
I mean, Boogie is you know, people forget before he
got hurt that he was one hell of a ball
player and he's he hustles and then and then we've
(31:14):
got p J. Tucker, Christian Would who who I didn't
really know till he till he came to Houston, but
but would as planned. I think that the Rockets could
surprise folks this year when it was supposed to be
a rebuilding year. But but if we could actually stay healthy,
I think there's a shot now also in Houston. And
(31:35):
I know you're a Houston heiras area sports fan Deshaun
Watson is all the rage right to talk about what
should happen there. Let's pretend in a different world that
you were not a politician and you owned the Houston Texans.
What would you do with Deshaun Watson. Would you sit
down with him and just try to figure out a
way to work it out, or do you think at
(31:56):
this point, based on all the reports out there, it's
time to just see if you can get a king's
ransom for him using Obviously the Matthew Stafford trade to
the Rams is kind of a template of what value
Deshaun Watson might carry. The question is is he persuadable? Uh?
And and I don't know so, so I think at
a minimum you have to sit down and talk with him.
(32:16):
I mean, I've seen the reports that says, let's say
you want to leave. That's obviously with the Rockets, what
they were saying about Harden. With Harden, that certainly seemed
to be the case. Um As a Texans fan, my
my heart is grieving. I think Watson is is. I mean,
he can move, he can throw. But that being said,
I mean the Texans were J. J. Watt to you
(32:37):
guys might lose J. J. Watt as well. The talk
is that you're basically could be using losing two of
the faces of the franchise. Well and and and we
we let Dandrad Hopkins go for nothing, like you just
handed him away, you know, one of the elite receivers
in the league. We just said okay, by go. That
was the moment actually that I started, like several buddies mine,
(32:58):
we're texting each other just you know what the hell
like like. And the problem is without a receiving corps.
You know, for Watson, you can understand you're going four
and twelve saying all right, get me out of here.
I want to win. I don't necessarily fault him. What
I'd like to see is the team go to Watson
(33:20):
and say we're gonna build a Super Bowl contender team
around you and make it so worried want to stay.
But I don't know if that's doable right now. What
about that the Houston Astros? Did you feel like the
title was in any way? I know you talked about
Houston not necessarily winning a lot of championships. When the
Astros win that championship, did it feel in any way
(33:41):
tainted by the reports that came out later about the
signals from the dugout, the banging on the trash cans, those, uh,
the fallout from that those titles. Yeah, of course it
was and and and it Uh, that that was hard.
I will say when we won the World Series in
that that was an incredible, incredible that that whole playoffs.
(34:02):
I was at games three, four, and five of the
of the World Series, so all the Houston games, and
and you know, there are moments in sports that are
really beautiful. And if you remember what was happening in seen,
Houston had just gone through Hurricane Harvey, and and it
was this, you know, the second most costly natural disaster
in US history. Was devastating and and there was at
(34:25):
the time a a meme online of a guy in
his living room sitting on a lawn chair with all
the carpet ripped up, all the sheet rock ripped up,
no furniture, a TV set playing the game, and he's
standing in an Astro's jersey, cheering as his entire home
has been destroyed. And and it said, this is why
(34:46):
it matters. And I gotta say that victory parade, and
I was part of the parade in Houston. We had
a million people come out his first World Series. What
everyone the only World Series who every won. But but
it was it was a beautiful moment celebration for the
city that that was incredibly powerful, and I love that team.
Looked at the trash can banging and all of that.
(35:08):
Of of course, it tarnishes it. And it just I
think all Houston fans are just sad about it. And
and you know, my daughter Katherine as a softball player,
she's ted now. Um. I took her to Game five.
So it was the day after her eighth birthday. It
was October and game five, you remembers, the one that
went to one thirty in the morning, was in screadible
(35:30):
game and and and it was just Katherine and me.
It was daddy daughter, just the two of us. And
I told her that. I said, Katherine, you don't realize this,
but you're gonna tell your grandkids you were here for
the greatest baseball game in the history of the Houston Astros.
And and and it was when the whole sign stealing
scandal broke and I had to explain it to Catherine.
(35:53):
And she asked, you know about you know, different stars,
did they know? And I'm like, well, yeah, yeah, they
did know. And and and she said, well, Daddy, what
why would they do that? Why would they be willing
to cheat? And I said, well, you know, sweethearts, sometimes
the pressure to win can be really, really tough. And
(36:13):
she looks at me and says, well, don't they know
it doesn't matter if you win or lose. It matters
how you play the game. And I was just I
just tugged her and I was like, you know, I
told her softball coach. I said, See, she's listening. Yeah,
that's fantastic. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk
lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at
Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart
(36:35):
Radio app search f s are to listen live. We're
talking to Senator Ted Cruz. Wins and Losses. I'm Clay Travis. Uh.
A couple of questions for you here as we as
we wind down, and obviously we canna get you on
more often to talk Houston sports, by the way, because
I think people are really going to enjoy this. A
couple of things. Um, you talked about Jordan's and I
think we agree being the best basketball player of all time.
(36:58):
He and Brady probably the greatest team sport athletes of
all time. You've worked in politics for a while, who
in your mind is the Jordan's and or the Brady
of the political universe, And maybe also the judicial universe.
People that you've seen and you're like, man, their talent
is just on a different level in terms of the
(37:20):
political and judicial universe. In the political world, I'd have
to say Ronald Reagan. Um. You know, for me, I've
got in in my office here the Senate, I have
the busts of three people. I have a bust of Reagan.
I have a bust of Winston Churchill, and I have
a bust of of Dr Barton Luther King Jr. And
(37:41):
And I think all three of them as leaders, they
were visionaries that that they could see beyond enormous challenges,
enormous hurdles, and they lead lead their nations through massive challenges.
They inspired millions and changed the world. And two of
the three suffered an assassin's bullet. And and so I
(38:05):
would say Reagan in terms of the ability to inspire
and and and to speak to our better angels and
touch our hearts and minds. You know, I was ten
years old when Reagan became president. I was eighteen when
he left the White House. And I think for a
whole generation of Americans, ron Reagan defined what it meant
(38:26):
to be president, that hopeful, optimistic belief in America belief
and freedom, that that that happy warrior, you know, you
know there was a prior generation of politicians that were
mean and angry and nasty and and and Reagan rose
above that. I think that's something UH A lot more
of us need to do a lot more often. What
about judiciary wise? Judicial wise, is there someone who written
(38:50):
opinions or I know, again the law background with you,
who would you say, is that level the Jordan's the
Brady in your mind of the judicial verse? You know
two people that I would focus on in in recent history,
and number one Anson and Scalia, who was who was
brilliant and who I knew well it was an extraordinary writer. Uh.
(39:11):
And then number two, Chief Justice William renk Quist, who
was my boss. I worked for Chief Justice renk Quist,
was a law clerk for him and and knew him well.
And this is actually a good way to wrap things
up because there's a connection between Chief Justice renk Quist
and the Houston Rockets and and it's going to surprise you.
(39:33):
So I'm a third year law student. I get called
for an interview from UH to interview with the Chief Justice,
and his secretary calls and says, you know, can you
be here tomorrow for the interviews. That sure, I'll be
there whenever you want. So I was in Houston, I
flew up to d C. I had the interviews at
two o'clock in the afternoon. Lasted seventeen minutes. Was a
(39:54):
short interview. Uh. The interview went fairly well. And as
we're walking out, UM, I had tried something of a joke.
I said, I said, you know, Mr Chief Justice, I'm
actually bitter sweet to be here right now. And and
he looks at me kind of puzzled. He said, well,
what do you mean by that? And I said, well,
(40:16):
tonight is Game four of the NBA Finals and and
my Houston Rockets are getting way to sweep Orlando and
win the second of back to back championships. And I
was going to the game tonight, and I gave up
the tickets to go to the game to come here
and interview with you. And the Chief cracked up laughing,
and he said, well, I think you made is the
(40:37):
right decision. Uh, and it's probably the reason I got
the jobs. I made him laugh, and he figured, all right,
if you made me laugh, it'll it'll be all right
to work with him for a year. That's outstanding. Uh,
Senator Ted Cruz, I appreciate the time. I know how
busy you are. We'll get you on again to talk
some more sports in the future. But in the meantime,
for people out there who might not be following you,
(40:58):
what's the best way for them to track you down
and keep up with what you're doing? So on Twitter
at Ted Cruz. I've got a podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, Uh,
that which is doing really well, right, I've I've heard
that it's being very well received so far. Yeah. We
launched it a year ago during impeachment. It became the
number one podcast in the world at that time. I
(41:18):
mean it's we've had over twenty five million downloads. Um.
And then I just have a new book actually on
the question you asked about the Supreme Court. The book
I just wrote is called One Vote Away, How a
Single Supreme Court Seat Can Change History And and that
became the number one best seller on Amazon and and
so it gives the inside story of the Court and
the justices and it and it answers in a lot
(41:41):
greater depth. Uh. The question you asked about great justices
and decisions and how our liberties are are hanging by
a single vote. Let me ask you one more, because
you mentioned impeachment and you did that podcast that was
so well received. The impeachment trial of Donald Trump. The
second impeachment trial of Donald Trump is going to happen.
It appears to be dead on arrival, based on the
(42:01):
forty five Republicans who have already said, basically, we don't
believe it has jurisdiction. You worked in the Supreme Court
as a clerk, you're obviously a legal scholar as well.
For people out there who may not be familiar with it,
what's going to happen? What do you believe of this
second impeachment trial? I think you're exactly right. It's it's
not going to go anywhere. Uh, You're going to see
(42:22):
the Democrats from the House present their case attacking President Trump.
I don't think it makes sense to be doing impeachment.
The President is already out of the White House, he's left.
I think this is really an exercise in in partisan vindictiveness,
and I think they're big challenges in the country. I
think we ought to be working to try to get
people back to work and restart the economy coming out
(42:43):
of this pandemic. Rather than a petty political trial. But
at the end of the day, the result is clear.
In order for the president to be convicted in an
impeachment trial, it takes two thirds of the Senate. That's
sixty senators. That's not gonna happen. All the Democrats are
going to vote to convict him, and the facts don't matter,
(43:04):
by the way, they just hate him. All of the
Democrats are going to vote to convictim. And I think
there'll be a handful of Republicans who do as well.
You mentioned the vote that was that's probably a pretty
good proxy for where we end up, but it's gonna
be well short of and so it will be a
(43:26):
partisan demonstration by the Democrats and then it will go
nowhere at the end of the day. Would you ever
want to be on the Supreme Court as opposed? I
know you've run for presidents several times, but at some
point would that ever have an appeal to you? I've
actually runs the president once, so alright, several different primaries,
several different primaries. You were you were a candidate force
so ib but would you would it have any appeal
(43:48):
to you to ever be on the Supreme Court? You
know it curiously, it does not UM. And this is
one of the things I actually talk about it at
some length and in in my book One Vote Away
is that for all three of the Supreme Court vacancies
that happened UH in the last four years, President Trump
(44:10):
had very serious conversations with me about whether I wanted
to go to the Court, and he put me on
the list of potential justices he would appoint. And what
I told him each time is I didn't want the job.
That that that it was fine if he wanted to
put me on the list, but I wouldn't wouldn't accept
the job, and I didn't want it. UM. I think
(44:30):
a judge's responsibility is to stay out of political fights
and policy fights. If I were ever a judge, I
do that. I don't want to stay out of political
policy fights. I want to be right in the middle
of them. And the right place to do that is
the politically elected branches. It's the US Senate. It is
that under our constitution is where we should resolve these issues.
(44:51):
Ted Cruz, I appreciate it, look forward to talking to
you again sometime soon, and encourage people to to check
out your podcast as well as that most recent book
awesome appreciate in it. That is Ted Cruz. I am
Clay Travis. This has been the Wins and Lost his podcast.
Go download all of them check them out. I hope
you enjoyed our conversation. We'll be back soon. Thanks for
listening again. Wins and Lost his podcast
Welcome in Wins and Lost his podcast. We have been
rolling up a lot of these interviews of late with
a great bevy of fascinating people in the world of sports,
media and politics. We are joined now by the Senator
from Texas, one of the senators from Texas. He is
Ted Cruz, Senator Cruz. It's super Bowl week. People may
be listening to this well after the Super Bowl. So
I'll put you on the spot early with a tough question.
(00:22):
Who do you think gets it done here? Do you
think the Chiefs or do you think that the Bucks
are going to be the Super Bowl champ when the
NFL season finishes, Well, I think we're gonna have a
close game and uh Brady has certainly shown an ability
to pull it out against impossible odds. That being said,
Mahomes is a is a beast and so so if
you if you push me, I'd say it's probably Kansas
(00:44):
Cities game. We have spent a lot of time on
this show, as I know you have seen, and we've
interacted a decent amount on social media, pushing as hard
as we possibly can for sports to be played, not
just pro sports, high school sports, college sports. How important
do you think it has been for sports too, in
many ways lead the way in showing how things are
(01:05):
able to get done in America as opposed to curling
up in the fetal position and saying the challenges are
too are too much, we can't find a way to
get through and continue our business, continue our play during COVID. Well, look,
I think it is important that that people be able
to go to their jobs, go to work, provide for
(01:26):
their kids, provide for their families, and people are seeing
through sports that it's possible that it can happen. Listen.
I think the NBA, the way they did the bubble
for the playoffs last year was was very well done.
I mean that the fact that they pulled it off
right in fairly early in the pandemic was was impressive. Uh,
(01:47):
And I think it was. You know, it's a contrast
contrast that's say two movies. I'm a huge movie buff.
I love movies. You know, Hollywood is essentially shut down,
Broadway is shut down. You know, think of of the
thousands of people who are unemployed. And you know, not
just big, big, fancy movie stars who have the resources
to to make it through it, but you know, people
(02:09):
who work on lighting and gaffers and carpenters and electricians
who the entire industry is devastated and and thankfully sports
has done a better job of of showing that that
that we can try to be safe and protect people,
but but not utterly destroy their livelihoods at the same time.
It is really emblematic I think of where America has
(02:32):
gone that you now hear people say it's brave and
courageous when people say we can't do something right. I mean,
and you know, your family has an immigrant background as well,
like like most people who were in America on some
level came here from somewhere else. Right. The idea that
we are now praising people when they say, oh, it's
(02:53):
impossible to do something is fundamentally to me, the opposite
of what America should stand for. I think that's right.
And if you look at different jurisdictions, there as some
jurisdictions that have shut everything down. And and you know,
if you're a restaurant owner in New York City, I mean,
I think it is just unconscionable what they've done. They've
(03:13):
just destroyed small businesses. You know that that sometimes may
have been built by two three generations of families, and
you've seen politicians just cavalierly shut them down. Um, I
think we ought to be able to walk and shootgum.
At the same time, we can't totally eliminate risk, you know,
(03:35):
I mean, if you if you know, I guess we
could all lock ourselves in a bubble and never never
interact with with anyone on planet Earth, and that would
that would reduce risk. But that's not a not a
world anyone who wants to live in. And and so
I think we need some some common sense. Um. And
and I will say I think Texas by and large
has followed that path where we've taken the pandemic seriously,
(03:59):
but we've also small businesses to be able to open
and and a restaurant spreads out a little bit more.
I mean, you take reasonable protective steps, but you don't
just obliterate people's entire livelihoods. You know. It's it's a
fascinating window into the importance of federalism. And I don't
know in our lives that it has ever mattered more
(04:19):
who the governor of your state happened to be than
right now right, and who the mayor of your city
might have been. Because we've got all these different little
laboratories to deal with COVID, and you mentioned Texas. I
think Florida and Texas, among the big states, have clearly
done the best at balancing risk while also maintaining people's
(04:40):
ability to continue their livelihood. And you contrast that with
New York and with California, and it's not a surprise.
I was looking at the data on net migrations. The
three states I live in, Tennessee, the three states that
have gained the most residents during this whole mess of
COVID Tennessee, Texas, and Florida. What do they all have
(05:01):
in common? They have figured out a way to keep
businesses open while also trying to protect their residents. Meanwhile,
people are fleeing from New York, Illinois, and California, three
of the most restrictive places in the entire country. It's
an interesting laboratory to study their response and see who
has done the best job in a way that many
(05:21):
countries who are more national in scope might not have
had those different laboratories to examine. Yeah, that that that
that is exactly right. Um. You know a stat that
that I've cited for some time is the cost of
a one way U haul from California to Texas. It
used to be it was three more to go from
California to Texas that it was to go the other
(05:43):
way around. It's actually risen more than that. So right now,
to get a twenty four ft U haul from San
Francisco to Austin, Texas cost five thousand dollars. To take
the same truck back cost nine eight six dollars because
all the traffic is going one way. That's right, nobody
go on the up. It's fascinating. That's actually a really
(06:03):
great data point. That pathway that you're talking about Senator
crews from Austin, I mean from San Francisco to Austin.
Also San Francisco to Miami, San Francisco, Nashville. Big tech
is starting to break up that corporate hegemony that had
existed in San Francisco. I know you have a lot
of concerns about this, as do I. I don't try
(06:24):
to get incredibly partisan on a day to day basis,
certainly not with my shows. But the thing that I
believe in is the marketplace of ideas. And I don't
think there's any doubt by anyone who is active on
social media that we don't have a full fledged marketplace
of ideas in the American ecosystem like we have in
past years. What should be done to big tech companies
(06:46):
that are making the decision to pull Parlor off of
their servers, like Amazon did to not allow certain apps
to be available at Apple or at Google. This idea
of hey, you don't have the right to spread your
particular viewpoint if it conflates or conflicts with ours is
to me fundamentally scary because, as you know, many of
(07:10):
the great ideas that emerge in American thought initially were
considered to be ludicrous and absurd, but because of the
marketplace of ideas, they were able to gain cogency and acceptance.
And that's how our country evolves in an intelligent and
efficacious manner. Look, I think that is exactly right. And
I think the power of big tech uh is the
(07:33):
single greatest threat we have to free speech in this country.
And it's the greatest threat we have to our democracy.
That that we right now have a handful of Silicon
Valley billionaires with with almost total monopoly power over over
political discourse and just about every other form of discourse today,
and and and they're getting more and more brazen in
(07:55):
how they use that power to silence those views they
don't like, in the ample by those views they do.
And it's you know, they've always been biased journalists. That
that that that's not new in the world. From the
very first time the first journalists were carving words on
a stone tablet, there were biased journalists. What's different is
(08:16):
that that big tech has power that that William Randolph
Hurst at the height of yellow journalism, could not have imagined.
Because they control seventy plus percent of people's political news
is coming online, it's coming through social media, and and
their bias is invisible as well. If they don't like
(08:39):
what you say, you simply disappear. They can shadow bang you,
they can throttle you, and there's zero accountability. And and
we've seen just the last few months, we saw we
saw Facebook and Twitter both blocking The New York Post,
the fourth largest newspaper, decreed, we're shutting you down. And
(09:00):
we've seen them d platform. The President of the United
States just said, Okay, we don't like Donald Trump. He's
no longer allowed to speak. We've seen them, as you
put it out, what they did to Parlor and what
they did to Parlor was blatantly illegal and violated the
antitrust laws. And I fully expect that they will pay
a big judgment because because you had multiple competitors working
(09:20):
together in concert to destroy another competitor, and and that
that is illegal, and they don't care and and it
is a massive threat. And unfortunately, right now with with
Democrats in charge of Washington, the Democrats want big tech
to do more of this, not less. They're in favor
(09:43):
of big tech censorship and and so I expect the
problem to get worse before it gets better. What's interesting,
Senator Cruise about Parlor in particular, And we both have
legal background, so I always try to talk for an
audience that might not People say, well, if you violate
Twitter's user agreement, then you don't have the right to
speak to your audience through Twitter. And then so Parlor
(10:05):
was actually created to guarantee that if people didn't have
the ability to reach their audience through Twitter, they could
start their own company which had a different genesis of
what their ideas were going to be. And then Amazon
Web Services, uh, and also Google and Apple. Amazon said
(10:27):
we're not gonna host you. Google and Apple said we're
not going to allow your app to be downloaded, and
they effectively. I mean, I think this is an analogy
that people can understand. It's a book burning by Amazon,
which was a company that was founded to sell books.
They have eliminated the largest amount of opinion from being
able to be shared in America, probably in the twenty
(10:49):
one century anywhere. No dictator could have made the decision
that Jeff Bezos did to shut down as many people
instantaneously as he did. Uh. And we've basically have created
our own Chinese wall, but it's being now monitored by,
as you said, billionaires in Silicon Valley. I think that's
exactly right. And as I said, they're getting more and
(11:12):
more brazen about it. Um. Now, how you solved it
is a complicated question. I've spent a lot of time
the last several years sharing multiple hearings in the Senate
on censorship with big Tech and detailing, uh, detailing all
the instances of censorship. We've seen the solution. Listen, nobody
(11:32):
wants to see a federal government speech police. That would
be a terrible thing. But there are solutions that that
are consistent with law that also protect free speech. One solution,
so right now, Big Tech has a special immunity from
liability under what's called Section to thirty of the Communications
Decency Act that that Congress gave it to Big Tech
(11:57):
twenty years ago, and and it functions us like corporate welfare.
It's a benefit that nobody else gets and only big
Tech gets. The reason big Tech got that immunity from
liability is because Congress understood that big Big Tech was
going to be a neutral public forum. In other words,
it wasn't gonna put its finger on the scale. It
(12:17):
was gonna let people speak. And so the reasoning was, well,
it's not fair to hold them liable for what other
people are saying if it's a public forum where anyone
can speak. Well, big Tech has decided to abandon that.
They are nakedly and brazenly censoring. And if they're going
to do that, there's no reason on earth that they
should have a special immunity from liability nobody else gets. Secondly,
(12:40):
the antitrust laws. By any measure, big Tech is bigger.
It's more powerful than a T and T was when
it was broken up under the anti trust laws. It's
bigger and more powerful than standard oil was when it
was broken up under the antitrust laws and and it
has long been existing laws that you cannot abuse monopoly power,
which is what they're doing. And then the third avenue
(13:03):
that that that I think needs to be pursued. It
is a claim that that that sounds in in fraud
and consumer protection, and it's essentially this the agreement you
make with big tech when you sign up for a
social media account. The promise they're making to you is
that if you follow someone, you'll see what they have
(13:24):
to say, and if they follow you, they'll see what
you have to say. Big Tech is breaking that promise.
They're deciding if they don't like what you have to say.
The people who have chosen I want to follow Kate
Clay Travis, well, if they don't like what you have
to say, they don't get to hear what you say,
even though they want to hear what you say. And
and that is fundamentally fraudulent and deceptive. And I think
(13:46):
with the Biden administration, you're not going to see any
federal government pressure on this, So it's gonna have to
come from state attorneys general. It's gonna have to come
in the states, and it's gonna have to come from
private litigation, and I expect quite a bit litigation, particularly
as a big tech gets more and more brazen. I
think we're gonna see more and more litigation directed that
(14:07):
you'll be fascinated by this. I've talked a little bit
about it on the show. We had Donald Trump on
this radio program, OutKick the coverage that that I most twice.
The first time that we had him on, we wrote
about it a lot of OutKick UH and Facebook. In
the week after we had Trump on, we lost seventy
percent of our Facebook traffic. Like you can watch if
(14:30):
if we pull a graph and we show you we wrote,
you know, four or five different articles because he was
talking about whether or not college football should play. To
his credit in the White House's credit, they fought as
hard as they possibly could to help us make sure
that college football happens. Most of the stories that we
were talking about him with were almost entirely sports related.
We wrote about it, right the President United States comes
(14:51):
on my show, We're going to write about it on
the website that that I own as well, right to
help share that information. We lost seventy p of our
Facebook traffic UH and our data analysts said it was
because Donald Trump's name was appearing in so many of
our articles, and it was not a negative characterization, right.
It was like President Trump is in favor of college
(15:13):
football being played. Right, our data people went back and
looked at it. That's Facebook. It's an unbelievable power that
they have. As soon as we stopped writing about Donald Trump,
over the next week, our traffic went right back up.
But we can directly go to that and say they
cost us tens of thousands of dollars in the way
they responded to us writing about Donald Trump coming on
(15:34):
the radio program. Now, one one thing we could say,
if we were purely looking to maximize revenue, is we
would say, oh, Facebook is dinging us. They are telling
us we can't write anything positive about Donald Trump. As
long as we don't, our revenue will stay the same.
But the minute we go positive on Trump, our revenue collapsed.
We can legitimately show you that him coming on our
(15:54):
radio program cost us tens of thousands of dollars. That
is powerful and and it is entirely consistent with the
conduct they're doing in multiple other instances. You know, one
of the hearings I shared in the Senate, Dr Robert
Epstein testified. Uh. He is a psychologist, and he has
done uh, just about the only empirical research on bias
(16:20):
and Google searches and and he did it initially in
twos sixteen where he examined Google searches and and the
biased outcome that that leans to the left. And he
concluded that Google's bias searches shifted two point six million
votes to the Democrats, to Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump.
(16:41):
Now here's the interesting thing. Clay dr Epstein is not
a Republican. He is a liberal Democrat who voted for
Hillary Clinton and and and who publicly campaigned for Hillary Clinton.
And yet he was horrified that that big tech has
the power to just manipulate voters and deceive them. And
(17:01):
and that that was four years ago. They're they're much
worse now because they feel that that nothing is holding
the back, there are no limits. It is terrifying, fascinating,
And I think the story of our age, the other
big story of our age, I think big tech is
one of the massive story censorship, cancel culture, the way
(17:22):
that all of that roles together with identity politics. The
other one is China. And to me, for the world
of sports, what happened with Darryl Moray, who is down
in Houston, in your home state of Texas, when he
came out and supported Hong Kong democracy. The NBA, which
wants to claim that it is a bastion of social
(17:44):
justice warriordom, that they are worried about being on the
right and wrong side of history. Amazing silence, right, Lebron James,
who speaks out all the time, didn't have a word
to say other than sometimes the First Amendment can be
a bad thing, which is an amazing quote to have. Uh.
Greg popa bitch who I'm gonna get to in a minute,
Steve Kerr. They pop off on everything that the president
(18:04):
was doing, Donald Trump. They don't say a word about China.
So I want to circle around on on China a
little bit, and in particular the NBA's relationship with China.
Greg Popovich, Uh went after you. I saw quotes recently.
I know Mark Cuban has come after you. Mark Cuban
has has come after me for people out there, obviously
Dallas Mavericks, Mark Cuban, as well as Greg Popovich of
(18:27):
the San Antonio Spurs. Uh. When you hear Greg Popovitch,
I know you're a basketball fan. I know you've liked
to watch the NBA over the years. When you hear
Greg Popovitch going after you, when Mark Cuban is going
after you for your political opinions, but they won't say
a word about genocide in China. About I saw recently
(18:47):
an article I was reading today about forced rape of
weaker women by by people in China, and they're using literal,
literal slave labor to make their products. Nike is uh.
The NBA has had their own factory of basketball uh
in that province where the wagers are being held in
(19:08):
concentration camps. How about that hypocrisy that they would not
say a word about that, but they come after you
for your political opinions. Well, it's it's massive hypocrisy. And
and the the n b A and and pro sports
in general made a big bet that there's a whole
lot of money to be made in China, and they're
willing to look the other way on on torture and
(19:32):
murder and horrific human rights abuses because they stand to
make a big buck. So so Daryl Morey sent a
really mild tweet to start this all. Stand with Hong Kong,
Stand Stand for liberty and democracy. I think it's what
he said. Um and and by the way, he was right,
because they've taken it away. Of course he was right.
(19:53):
But but it illustrates a couple of things. Number One, look,
you and I know who Darryl Mori is. I'm a
die hard Rockets and I bleed Rockets read. But but
most people in the country didn't know who Daryl Morey was.
Frankly when he sent the tweet that that was not
going to be heard by a whole lot of people
until the Chinese communists lost their minds and they freaked
out about it because so terrified of criticism. And and
(20:18):
the one friendly amendment I'd make to what you just
said is you said the NBA state silent about it. No,
they did worse than state silent about it, which is
they groveled an apology and they and by the way,
what did what did? What did China do? It shut
down all of the Rockets and NBA sales of of
(20:39):
uniforms in China. Of course we used to have Yao Ming,
so actually the Rockets a very popular team in China.
They shut that all down. Lebron James blasted Maury for
saying that he was defending China, said all more, he
doesn't understand China. Really, Lebron, what is there to understand
about concentration camps and murder and torture. But look, you
(21:01):
understand what Lebron is interested in. You understand what Mark
Cuban is interested in. They're interested in bucks. They're interested
in Mark Cuban is making millions of dollars by making
the communist government in China happy. And they have total
control over whether Mark Cuban makes that money or not.
And so the NBA, it's about the Benjamin's and and
(21:25):
so you know, look this last NBA season when they
had the ridiculous uh practice of putting all the NBA
players having slogans on the back of their u uh
back of their jerseys. You know, I and a number
of other people said, okay, how about free Hong Kong. Yeah,
how about remember Tanneman square. I mean, look, you're all
for political speech. Oh no, no, no, no no, just the
(21:47):
political speech that happens to agree with everything in your politics.
That's the only speech you'll allow it. It's massive hypocrisy.
You mentioned that you're a Houston Rockets fan. Um Die
died in the wool, long time Houston Rockets in total
sports question here for you. Do you think that the
Rockets would have won the two championships that they did
(22:08):
if Michael Jordan hadn't retired. That tells me that you
are a huge Houston Rockets fan, because that's that's Houston
Rocket fandom to the core. And listen. And I adored
Jordan's I mean, I mean, it's it's I think Jordan
is the greatest it's ever played on on on the
Jordan Lebron debate. I don't even think it's close. But
(22:30):
that's so ninety four when the Rockets won our first finals.
I was at game seven when we beat the Knicks,
when John Starks went oh for eleven. I mean it
was and it was in the summit. Kilson had never
won a championship at any sports and and and it
will remain the sports highlight of my life. Where afterwards
you had businessmen in three piece suits crying and hugging
(22:53):
homeless man. I mean, it brought the city together. A
la Juan was extraordinary. He dominated. Um. I've actually got
sitting next to me in my office right now, a
piece of the floor from from the from the summit
signed by that ninety four Rockets. Oh that's awesome. Where
(23:13):
were you sitting, by the way, how old were you
in ninety four? So ninety four, I was twenty four.
I was in law school, and I had the incredible
good luck. I was working at a law firm in
Houston as a summer associate called Baker Bots, and baker
Bots happens to represent the Rockets. And I worked there
two summers ninety four and ninety five, the two years
we won the finals, and and so like. I went
(23:36):
to the firm early on and I said, look, you
don't need to take me out to launch or dinner.
You know often when for the summer programs they wine
and dine students quite a bit. I said, don't buy
me a meal all all summer long. I'll have hot
dogs at the Hot Ducks stand downstairs. Just get me
to the games. That's all I ask is, I want
to go to the games. And so I went to
a bunch of the games, and and and it's kind
(23:58):
of a funny story. So for Games seven, the firm
was not going to send the summer associates to the game.
They decided they were going to send the associates, the
people who were already working at the firm there instead.
And I went into the lawyer who was the kind
of lead lawyer for the Rockets, and and I went
in with another buddy of mind. We were both summer associates.
And I said, uh I, I said, Mike um Amy
(24:21):
and I we we've decided we've got to go to
Game seven and and so we're just gonna go to
a scalp or we're gonna buy tickets. We just we
can't let this happen and not go. And and I said,
you know, do you know any scalpers maybe where we
could get some decent rates. And we just looked at him,
and he looked at us for about thirty seconds in silence,
and he just cracked up laughing. He's like, all right,
(24:43):
damn it, I'll get you tickets, but you can't tell
anyone else. And I said, done, done, And so I
ended up getting tickets for for faith value was seventy
five bucks. And I was seated right behind one of
the backboards and I was seeing it kind of right
to the side side of where Dr J and Bob
Costas were broadcasting the game, and and actually part of
(25:07):
The fun was when the during the commercial breaks, uh,
dr J was bust In Costas going, man, you're Nick suck.
That was the funniest part of the whole game, was
just hearing dr J do that off camera. Fox Sports
Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation.
(25:29):
Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot
com and within the I Heart Radio app search f
s R to listen live. That was an amazing run.
So the NTO game seven, Patrick Ewing never gets it
done out there for people. I mean, that was an
amazing series and like you mentioned, John Starks just fell
apart now the next year to help the Rockets argument.
(25:50):
And by the way, this is the Wins and Losses Podcast.
I'm Clay Travis. We're talking to Senator Ted Cruz of Texas.
Jordan's came back, ended up losing that series to the
Orlando Magic, and then you guys win a second title
before Jordan wins. Is three in a row. For some
guys out there are young, they may not remember that
that era of nineties era NBA basketball, which by the way,
is I think the peak, the absolute peak of the
(26:12):
NBA in America. Well, I had always defined my perfect
basketball game would be a game Rockets against the Bulls
in the finals, game seven. Uh, to have the Rockets win,
but to have Jordan's score a hundred points and break
Wilts record. Yeah. And and I never was a Scottie
(26:32):
Pippen fan, so I actually finished it off with and
have Pippin playing for the Bulls tip the ball in
accidentally in our bucket, the winning basket for us. Did
you watch the Last Dance by the Way documentary? Every
minute of it? And I think my favorite moment is
when they play Gary Peyton talking about covering uh, covering
(26:55):
Jordan and Jordan's laugh about you know, I think I
could handle the of it was so real, it was incredible.
It was. That's such a great nostalgic time back, like
the Dennis Rodman stories. You knew in the nineties that
those were great, but there's so much more fun. I mean,
that nineties era Bowl team is I think the most
(27:17):
beloved American sporting franchise ever. Right, you're a Rockets fan.
I didn't grow up with a particular affinity for a team,
but I was obsessed with the nineties arab Bles, and
I think a huge number of people out there listening are,
and it was because they were just such an exhilarating
team to play and Jordan himself is I think that
(27:38):
the signature achievement. I don't know if you go to
a concert or you go to watch someone who has
to put on a performance. He was so incredible every
night that I don't think people really who haven't experienced him.
You mentioned the Jordan's versus Lebron argument. The amount of
intensity and effort he brought to bear, whether it was
a random Tuesday night in the fourteenth game of the
(27:59):
season or whether it was Game seven of the NBA
Finals is unmatched I think ever in the history of basketball. Look,
I completely agree, and where I think Jordan took it
to another level is at the end of any game
that was close, that mattered, you knew Jordan was going
to have the ball, you knew he was going to
take the shot, you knew he was going to be
(28:19):
triple teamed, and you know he was gonna make it.
I mean, it was you know that there's all the
you know truisms, things like you know, ice water in
the veins, but it's just it was a level of
just stone cold killer that that. I mean, he would
always always perform. By the way, I'll give you a
(28:43):
a fantasy alternative universe, which is if you remember the Rockets,
we had two years in a row. We had back
to back number one draft picks. We picked Ralph Sampson
first year, the second year we picked a la Juan.
That draft that a la Juan came out. Jordan was
also in the draft. A large one was drafted number one.
The Bulls drafted Jordan number three. Sam Booie went number two.
(29:06):
Who was washed in there between those two. I believe, yep,
that's exactly right. And and look, you can't fault Houston
for drafting a la Juan. He was coming out of
University of Houston. Vice slamm A Jamma. I mean it was.
It was a great, great pick. But imagine if Houston
had gone to the Bulls and said, will trade you
(29:26):
Ralph Sampson, who we drafted the year earlier with the
number one pick and he just one rookie of the year,
will trade you Ralph Sampson for the number three pick.
We could have drafted a la Juan and Jordan's that
would have been. That would have been That would have
been one hell of a team, even a little bit
better than Bill Cartwright. I think in Bill Winnington, we're
talking to Senator Ted Cruz. What do you think about
(29:48):
James Harden. You're you're a Rockets fan. You had those
moments in You've Gotten close. I know you had another
game seven where you guys couldn't hit a three four
for every dollar on the I mean that was probably
tough for you to watch. That was twenty three miss
threes in a row or whatever the heck it was. Um,
what do you think about Harden going to Brooklyn? What
do you think about the future of the Rockets? Oh,
(30:08):
look at my heart is sad at at Harden leaving.
He's one hell of an offensive force. You're right that
game where we could only shoot threes? Like did nobody
remember how to drive to the basket? Like like okay, fine,
you're not hitting threes, Like do something else, damn it,
get to the foul line. But but we couldn't do that.
I'm sad to see hard and go because he's extraordinary
(30:31):
and historic and the offensive outpit. But the last Cup
three years is unmatched. I mean, the numbers you have
to go back to to Chamberlain to find anything even
close that being sad. Listen, I'm this This new team
is kind of growing on me. I mean it's it's
it came together kind of eclectically. But but you know,
(30:52):
John wall if he if he can stay healthy, he
looks like he's got speed, he's got agility. Oladipo is
a heck of a player. Um Eric gordon As has
been playing very strong, and I'm really liking Boogie Cousins.
I mean, Boogie is you know, people forget before he
got hurt that he was one hell of a ball
player and he's he hustles and then and then we've
(31:14):
got p J. Tucker, Christian Would who who I didn't
really know till he till he came to Houston, but
but would as planned. I think that the Rockets could
surprise folks this year when it was supposed to be
a rebuilding year. But but if we could actually stay healthy,
I think there's a shot now also in Houston. And
(31:35):
I know you're a Houston heiras area sports fan Deshaun
Watson is all the rage right to talk about what
should happen there. Let's pretend in a different world that
you were not a politician and you owned the Houston Texans.
What would you do with Deshaun Watson. Would you sit
down with him and just try to figure out a
way to work it out, or do you think at
(31:56):
this point, based on all the reports out there, it's
time to just see if you can get a king's
ransom for him using Obviously the Matthew Stafford trade to
the Rams is kind of a template of what value
Deshaun Watson might carry. The question is is he persuadable? Uh?
And and I don't know so, so I think at
a minimum you have to sit down and talk with him.
(32:16):
I mean, I've seen the reports that says, let's say
you want to leave. That's obviously with the Rockets, what
they were saying about Harden. With Harden, that certainly seemed
to be the case. Um As a Texans fan, my
my heart is grieving. I think Watson is is. I mean,
he can move, he can throw. But that being said,
I mean the Texans were J. J. Watt to you
(32:37):
guys might lose J. J. Watt as well. The talk
is that you're basically could be using losing two of
the faces of the franchise. Well and and and we
we let Dandrad Hopkins go for nothing, like you just
handed him away, you know, one of the elite receivers
in the league. We just said okay, by go. That
was the moment actually that I started, like several buddies mine,
(32:58):
we're texting each other just you know what the hell
like like. And the problem is without a receiving corps.
You know, for Watson, you can understand you're going four
and twelve saying all right, get me out of here.
I want to win. I don't necessarily fault him. What
I'd like to see is the team go to Watson
(33:20):
and say we're gonna build a Super Bowl contender team
around you and make it so worried want to stay.
But I don't know if that's doable right now. What
about that the Houston Astros? Did you feel like the
title was in any way? I know you talked about
Houston not necessarily winning a lot of championships. When the
Astros win that championship, did it feel in any way
(33:41):
tainted by the reports that came out later about the
signals from the dugout, the banging on the trash cans, those, uh,
the fallout from that those titles. Yeah, of course it
was and and and it Uh, that that was hard.
I will say when we won the World Series in
that that was an incredible, incredible that that whole playoffs.
(34:02):
I was at games three, four, and five of the
of the World Series, so all the Houston games, and
and you know, there are moments in sports that are
really beautiful. And if you remember what was happening in seen,
Houston had just gone through Hurricane Harvey, and and it
was this, you know, the second most costly natural disaster
in US history. Was devastating and and there was at
(34:25):
the time a a meme online of a guy in
his living room sitting on a lawn chair with all
the carpet ripped up, all the sheet rock ripped up,
no furniture, a TV set playing the game, and he's
standing in an Astro's jersey, cheering as his entire home
has been destroyed. And and it said, this is why
(34:46):
it matters. And I gotta say that victory parade, and
I was part of the parade in Houston. We had
a million people come out his first World Series. What
everyone the only World Series who every won. But but
it was it was a beautiful moment celebration for the
city that that was incredibly powerful, and I love that team.
Looked at the trash can banging and all of that.
(35:08):
Of of course, it tarnishes it. And it just I
think all Houston fans are just sad about it. And
and you know, my daughter Katherine as a softball player,
she's ted now. Um. I took her to Game five.
So it was the day after her eighth birthday. It
was October and game five, you remembers, the one that
went to one thirty in the morning, was in screadible
(35:30):
game and and and it was just Katherine and me.
It was daddy daughter, just the two of us. And
I told her that. I said, Katherine, you don't realize this,
but you're gonna tell your grandkids you were here for
the greatest baseball game in the history of the Houston Astros.
And and and it was when the whole sign stealing
scandal broke and I had to explain it to Catherine.
(35:53):
And she asked, you know about you know, different stars,
did they know? And I'm like, well, yeah, yeah, they
did know. And and and she said, well, Daddy, what
why would they do that? Why would they be willing
to cheat? And I said, well, you know, sweethearts, sometimes
the pressure to win can be really, really tough. And
(36:13):
she looks at me and says, well, don't they know
it doesn't matter if you win or lose. It matters
how you play the game. And I was just I
just tugged her and I was like, you know, I
told her softball coach. I said, See, she's listening. Yeah,
that's fantastic. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk
lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at
Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart
(36:35):
Radio app search f s are to listen live. We're
talking to Senator Ted Cruz. Wins and Losses. I'm Clay Travis. Uh.
A couple of questions for you here as we as
we wind down, and obviously we canna get you on
more often to talk Houston sports, by the way, because
I think people are really going to enjoy this. A
couple of things. Um, you talked about Jordan's and I
think we agree being the best basketball player of all time.
(36:58):
He and Brady probably the greatest team sport athletes of
all time. You've worked in politics for a while, who
in your mind is the Jordan's and or the Brady
of the political universe, And maybe also the judicial universe.
People that you've seen and you're like, man, their talent
is just on a different level in terms of the
(37:20):
political and judicial universe. In the political world, I'd have
to say Ronald Reagan. Um. You know, for me, I've
got in in my office here the Senate, I have
the busts of three people. I have a bust of Reagan.
I have a bust of Winston Churchill, and I have
a bust of of Dr Barton Luther King Jr. And
(37:41):
And I think all three of them as leaders, they
were visionaries that that they could see beyond enormous challenges,
enormous hurdles, and they lead lead their nations through massive challenges.
They inspired millions and changed the world. And two of
the three suffered an assassin's bullet. And and so I
(38:05):
would say Reagan in terms of the ability to inspire
and and and to speak to our better angels and
touch our hearts and minds. You know, I was ten
years old when Reagan became president. I was eighteen when
he left the White House. And I think for a
whole generation of Americans, ron Reagan defined what it meant
(38:26):
to be president, that hopeful, optimistic belief in America belief
and freedom, that that that happy warrior, you know, you
know there was a prior generation of politicians that were
mean and angry and nasty and and and Reagan rose
above that. I think that's something UH A lot more
of us need to do a lot more often. What
about judiciary wise? Judicial wise, is there someone who written
(38:50):
opinions or I know, again the law background with you,
who would you say, is that level the Jordan's the
Brady in your mind of the judicial verse? You know
two people that I would focus on in in recent history,
and number one Anson and Scalia, who was who was
brilliant and who I knew well it was an extraordinary writer. Uh.
(39:11):
And then number two, Chief Justice William renk Quist, who
was my boss. I worked for Chief Justice renk Quist,
was a law clerk for him and and knew him well.
And this is actually a good way to wrap things
up because there's a connection between Chief Justice renk Quist
and the Houston Rockets and and it's going to surprise you.
(39:33):
So I'm a third year law student. I get called
for an interview from UH to interview with the Chief Justice,
and his secretary calls and says, you know, can you
be here tomorrow for the interviews. That sure, I'll be
there whenever you want. So I was in Houston, I
flew up to d C. I had the interviews at
two o'clock in the afternoon. Lasted seventeen minutes. Was a
(39:54):
short interview. Uh. The interview went fairly well. And as
we're walking out, UM, I had tried something of a joke.
I said, I said, you know, Mr Chief Justice, I'm
actually bitter sweet to be here right now. And and
he looks at me kind of puzzled. He said, well,
what do you mean by that? And I said, well,
(40:16):
tonight is Game four of the NBA Finals and and
my Houston Rockets are getting way to sweep Orlando and
win the second of back to back championships. And I
was going to the game tonight, and I gave up
the tickets to go to the game to come here
and interview with you. And the Chief cracked up laughing,
and he said, well, I think you made is the
(40:37):
right decision. Uh, and it's probably the reason I got
the jobs. I made him laugh, and he figured, all right,
if you made me laugh, it'll it'll be all right
to work with him for a year. That's outstanding. Uh,
Senator Ted Cruz, I appreciate the time. I know how
busy you are. We'll get you on again to talk
some more sports in the future. But in the meantime,
for people out there who might not be following you,
(40:58):
what's the best way for them to track you down
and keep up with what you're doing? So on Twitter
at Ted Cruz. I've got a podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, Uh,
that which is doing really well, right, I've I've heard
that it's being very well received so far. Yeah. We
launched it a year ago during impeachment. It became the
number one podcast in the world at that time. I
(41:18):
mean it's we've had over twenty five million downloads. Um.
And then I just have a new book actually on
the question you asked about the Supreme Court. The book
I just wrote is called One Vote Away, How a
Single Supreme Court Seat Can Change History And and that
became the number one best seller on Amazon and and
so it gives the inside story of the Court and
the justices and it and it answers in a lot
(41:41):
greater depth. Uh. The question you asked about great justices
and decisions and how our liberties are are hanging by
a single vote. Let me ask you one more, because
you mentioned impeachment and you did that podcast that was
so well received. The impeachment trial of Donald Trump. The
second impeachment trial of Donald Trump is going to happen.
It appears to be dead on arrival, based on the
(42:01):
forty five Republicans who have already said, basically, we don't
believe it has jurisdiction. You worked in the Supreme Court
as a clerk, you're obviously a legal scholar as well.
For people out there who may not be familiar with it,
what's going to happen? What do you believe of this
second impeachment trial? I think you're exactly right. It's it's
not going to go anywhere. Uh, You're going to see
(42:22):
the Democrats from the House present their case attacking President Trump.
I don't think it makes sense to be doing impeachment.
The President is already out of the White House, he's left.
I think this is really an exercise in in partisan vindictiveness,
and I think they're big challenges in the country. I
think we ought to be working to try to get
people back to work and restart the economy coming out
(42:43):
of this pandemic. Rather than a petty political trial. But
at the end of the day, the result is clear.
In order for the president to be convicted in an
impeachment trial, it takes two thirds of the Senate. That's
sixty senators. That's not gonna happen. All the Democrats are
going to vote to convict him, and the facts don't matter,
(43:04):
by the way, they just hate him. All of the
Democrats are going to vote to convictim. And I think
there'll be a handful of Republicans who do as well.
You mentioned the vote that was that's probably a pretty
good proxy for where we end up, but it's gonna
be well short of and so it will be a
(43:26):
partisan demonstration by the Democrats and then it will go
nowhere at the end of the day. Would you ever
want to be on the Supreme Court as opposed? I
know you've run for presidents several times, but at some
point would that ever have an appeal to you? I've
actually runs the president once, so alright, several different primaries,
several different primaries. You were you were a candidate force
so ib but would you would it have any appeal
(43:48):
to you to ever be on the Supreme Court? You
know it curiously, it does not UM. And this is
one of the things I actually talk about it at
some length and in in my book One Vote Away
is that for all three of the Supreme Court vacancies
that happened UH in the last four years, President Trump
(44:10):
had very serious conversations with me about whether I wanted
to go to the Court, and he put me on
the list of potential justices he would appoint. And what
I told him each time is I didn't want the job.
That that that it was fine if he wanted to
put me on the list, but I wouldn't wouldn't accept
the job, and I didn't want it. UM. I think
(44:30):
a judge's responsibility is to stay out of political fights
and policy fights. If I were ever a judge, I
do that. I don't want to stay out of political
policy fights. I want to be right in the middle
of them. And the right place to do that is
the politically elected branches. It's the US Senate. It is
that under our constitution is where we should resolve these issues.
(44:51):
Ted Cruz, I appreciate it, look forward to talking to
you again sometime soon, and encourage people to to check
out your podcast as well as that most recent book
awesome appreciate in it. That is Ted Cruz. I am
Clay Travis. This has been the Wins and Lost his podcast.
Go download all of them check them out. I hope
you enjoyed our conversation. We'll be back soon. Thanks for
listening again. Wins and Lost his podcast
Host
Clay Travis
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