September 30, 2025 • 38 mins
Erika Kirk, the widow of the late Charlie Kirk who was murdered earlier this month, received widespread admiration across the political aisle when she forgave her husband’s killer during Charlie’s memorial service. Boston Globe opinion columnist Jeff Jacoby wrote a recent piece addressing the limits of personal forgiveness. Jeff joined us to explain and discuss.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Thanks very much, Dan Walkins.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I am delighted to welcome back to Night's Side someone
who's been a guest here many times, but not often enough,
Jeff Jacoby, Boston Globe opinion columnist. And he also writes
a newsletter that comes out every Tuesday, which is called Audiable.
Welcome back, Jeff.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
How are you, Dan?
Speaker 5 (00:30):
It's good to hear your voice, and as everyone in
my community is saying these days, happy new.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Year to you, and a happy and a healthy and
a prosperous new year to you as well.
Speaker 5 (00:43):
Uh, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
All in our audience who are members of the Jewish faith.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
You wrote a really interesting well, you always.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Write interesting pieces, there's no doubt about that, but you
wrote a really interesting piece today, inarguable. And by the way,
when we finish up tonight, the subscription arguable is I
understand that is free of charge?
Speaker 5 (01:06):
Absolutely? Yeah, anybody who you know? I write two newsletters,
two columns a week, and have been doing so in
the Boston Globe since you and I were young men,
yes the last for the last now nine years. I
also write a weekly newsletter it's an additional material that
goes out by emails. It's it's free, sponsored by the Globe,
(01:29):
and you can sign up for it in about two seconds.
Anybody who's interested just just go to Globe dot com
slash arguable, Globe dot com slash arguable, put in your
your email address and and you'll start getting it. And
in arguable, I usually have a little bit more room
(01:49):
to explore things at a little bit greater length than
I do in a newspaper column. And I you know,
I've used the newsletter to write about all kinds of things,
some of which are you know, straight out of the news,
but also occasionally more quirky subjects things, and I'm a
little bit more personal. I don't I don't hear from
(02:09):
too many people who say that they don't find it
interesting gread, So I would I would love it if
our listeners who don't already get arguable would go sign
up for Globe dot com slash arguable.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
And you tend to be you're kind of a writer
center guy, but you also tend to be a bit
of a contrarian. I would say, do you do do
you accept that that characterization or no? Sure?
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Although it's not it's I don't know that it's by.
Speaker 6 (02:38):
Instinct.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
In other words, if the world were behaving the way
I thought it should be behaving, I might not find
anything to be contrary about it. I might just be,
you know, cheering and saying, keep it up, world, keep
doing more of this. But for my whole career, and
you know me, for most of it, I have tended
to march to the beat of a different drummer from
(03:00):
most of my colleagues at the Boston Globe certainly, and
for most of my colleagues or many of my colleagues
in the mainstream media. My politics are part of it,
you know, As you mentioned, I'm writ of center. But
part of it, I think is also that I just
come from from a different personal background that people might
(03:21):
think is typical of many people in the mainstream media.
I grew up in a religious environment. I attended a
religious day school from kindergarten through high school. So religion
has always been really important to me. You know, I'm
obsessed with books and love to read. Granted, a lot
(03:42):
of our listeners and a lot of Globe readers do
the same, but I often refer to books in the
material that I write but in general, I think that
I just reflect in my writing the worldview that I've
developed and shaped over the course of a lifetime. And
whether people agree with me or not isn't that's not
that's not the reason that you know, that's that's not
(04:03):
what's important. What's important is that I make a fair
argument and get people something to think about. And when,
you know, when people will write and say, well, I
didn't agree with what you know, it's what you had
in the newsletter, I tell them that's why I call
it arguable. Yeah, it's not claiming to be absolute truth,
but it's claiming to be making a fair argument. And
if you want to, you know, I do and print
(04:26):
what you do on the radio. You make your best argument.
You try to be reasonable, and you hope that the
people that you're communicating with will consider what you're saying,
and if they deem it worthy, if they deem it persuasive,
maybe it'll change their opinion or give them something to
think about, or just you know, plant a feed that
might bear fruit in the future.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, and so today your piece that came out talks
about that horrific shooting in Utah earlier this month that
took the life of Charlie Kirk, and you focused on
some words of forgiveness from his young widow, Erica Kirk.
(05:09):
I just want to play first of all, what she said,
and then I want to point out the points that
you make, which I think are really interesting, and see
if people want to respond. Let's first listen to this
is the words that Erica Kirk spoke at the memorial
ceremony at that football stadium in Arizona where she forgave
(05:31):
her husband's murderer cut number fourteen, Rob father.
Speaker 7 (05:35):
Forgive them for they not know what they do. That man,
that young man, I forgive him.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And it was obviously warmly received. And then subsequently a
lot of religious leaders who you mentioned today gave her
tremendous kudos for that. But you looked at it a
little bit more carefully, and maybe I want to make
sure that you have a chance. I'm not going to
put your words. You put the words on paper today.
(06:30):
You thought that there was some real questions about whether
or not well Erica Kirk had the right to technically
forgive the transgression against someone else, including her late husband.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
What I strongly believe, and this grows out of my
religious edition, which I will point out to all of
our listeners, was also the religious tradition that Jesus was
raised in. Jesus, as everyone knows, was an observant Jew,
and the values that he was raised with are the
values that I was raised with as an observant Jew.
(07:11):
And in Judaism and therefore in Christianity, forgiveness is very important.
Forgiveness is mentioned over and over and over again in
the Hebrew Bible. This week, tomorrow evening begins Don't Kippour,
which is the day of Atonement. Jews all over the
world will be in synagogues for twenty five hours of
(07:32):
penitence and confession and prayer and joining together to ask
God's forgiveness for our sins and to try to set
the stage to be better in the year ahead. So
all of that Christianity and Judaism have in common, but
there is no There is no major religion, not Judaism,
(07:54):
not Christianity, not Islam, as far as I know, not
Hinduism or Buddhism. There is no major religion that teaches
that any human being has the right to forgive the
crimes and the sins and the offenses committed against someone else.
If somebody bursts into your homewords, your studio and puts
(08:17):
a bullet through your head, I have no right to
get up, no matter how much you mean to me,
no matter how much the value and virtual forgiveness mean
to me, no matter how passionately I believe that this
is the right thing to do. I have no right
to get up and tell the murderer of you, or
any other person I bestow forgiveness.
Speaker 6 (08:40):
Now.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
I don't stand here. I didn't write in order to
condemn Erica Kirk. I can't imagine the grief of a
young widow with small children seeing her husband killed in
such a terrible way. Whatever she whatever solvace she gets
out of saying that she forgives, I'm not condemning her.
(09:06):
And perhaps one could say, in a sort of technical way,
well maybe she was just forgiving what that assassin did
to her. That she wasn't She didn't mean to forgive
forgive him for committee murder, but rather for the pain
that he inflicted on her personally. Okay, fine, I have
no problem with any of that. What troubled me so
(09:27):
much was this explosion of cheers, the ovation, all the
religious leaders who stepped forward to say that was a
beautiful moment of grace. That was wonderful. That's what it
means to be to be a good and decent person. Now,
you and I have known each other for a very
long time. Dan and I think we would both agree.
(09:49):
We would both say that there has to be an order,
a moral order to things in this world, and that
before there can be forgiveness, there has to be repentance.
Judaism and Christianity like teach that God is a forgiving God.
You know, the Hebrew prophets no less than the Apostles
(10:10):
spoke over and over again about God's willingness to forgive,
but always that willingness to forgive. Indeed, God's eagerness to
forgive is coupled with the call to repent. You can
earn forgiveness by repenting for what you've done wrong. That's
the whole purpose of the day of Atonement of Young Kippoor.
(10:30):
That's why the Orthodox Jews who attend Orthodox synagogues and
recite the daily prayers, as I and my family members do,
pray daily for forgiveness for our sins and repentance for
our sins. My concern was with the idea which gets
so much applause in our culture these days, that all
(10:54):
someone has to do is say I forgive that person's
evil deed, and something beautiful has been done. And as
I noted in the column, this is this is far
from the first time that there has been a big, public,
spectacular act of or purporting to forgive like this. I
mentioned this went back to the nineteen nineties, but I
(11:15):
mentioned it because it happened in Massachusetts on Martha's Vineyard
when Bill Clinton was president. It was a few weeks
or a few months after Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City terrorists,
had been found guilty of murdering hundreds of people and
maiming many hundreds more, and kids.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
And little kids, by the way.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Absolutely and President Clinton was visiting Massachusetts that we and
then it was a Sunday, and he went to the
Martha's Vineyard tabernacle, and there was a there was a
minister who preached a sermon, and he said to his parishioners,
including President Clinton, I earned you to look at a
picture of Timothy McVeigh and to forgive him. If we
(12:00):
professed to be Christians, that we are called to love
and forgive I remember how outraged I was at those words.
Then if if if my child, or or my brother,
or my uh you know, my my my close friend
had been one of those blown up by Timothy McVay,
I would have just been incandescent with outrage at hearing
(12:23):
someone claiming that what God wants them to do is
to forgive automatically, even though Timothy mcveay never whispered a
single word of repentance or remorse or sadness.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, the only thing I remember that they was the
only death row inmate who dropped all of his appeals
because he wanted to get it over with.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Every other death row inmate keeps appealing, you know, on
and on and on. They was the one guy.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
You know, it's interesting whenever there's a president at a church,
and most many times a matter of I I think
there was a minister down at the Washington Cathedral, I
believe when during the inauguration ceremonies the morning of that
(13:13):
and sort of directed a lecture at President Trump. You
don't recall what what President Clinton's reaction was that day.
Knowing him he's a pretty good politician. He probably took
it in stride, walked out and didn't comment one way
one way or the other.
Speaker 5 (13:27):
Actually after this, I mean he didn't say as far
as I know, he didn't say anything specifically about the
sermon publicly. But after the service was over, he and
Hillary Clinton and that minister and the minister's wife went
off to have breakfast. And I just remember that the
whole thing to scrubbed me so badly. And you see
this so many times. There was a there was a
(13:49):
case last year or two years ago, and I think
it was an Atlanta and Atlanta cop shot dead a
guy who was sitting in his own home on his
own couch. I think he was, you know, like drinking
coffee or watching TV. Because she was completely distracted and
she thought that she had walked into her apartment. Yes,
(14:11):
and you know she was no adult. She just grabbed
her gun and shot the guy.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Dead in his own apartment. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
So the Justice Department did what it was supposed to do.
I mean, not Justice department, the justice system did what
it was supposed to do. She was stripped of her badge,
she was prosecuted, and as far as I know, she's
in prison. She was convicted. But I was just I
was I found it hard to understand what was going
through the mind of the people sitting there when the
(14:41):
brother of the man who was killed announced in court
that he forgave this former cop for killing his brother,
and then said that he wanted he would like the
judge's permission to be able to get up and give
the killer a hug. I don't understand that. I don't
under people well, different people righteous.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Let me do.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Let me do this, Jeff, though it's just a stage
for a performance.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Yes, yes, we'll take a quick break.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
My guess is Jeff Tacolby, if you'd like to comment
on what Jeff had to say, and again it's it's
really the thing about the arguable columns that he writes
a newsletter that he writes I find there they're very
thought provoking. So if you would like to weigh in
on what Jeff had to say six one seven, four
ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty.
(15:32):
I think everybody, everybody certainly understands the the the agony
that the widow of Charlie Kirk has gone through and
the road. I'm sure she will have, you know, support
in many respects, but she will she will always be
without the love of her life as a result of
(15:53):
this cold blooded, cowardly act by this Tyler Robinson. Dude,
my name is Dan, This is Nightside. My guest Jeff Jacoby.
Feel free to join the conversation. It's the whole idea
is to make us think, and Jeff Jacoby, of all
the opinion writers at the Globe, makes me think a lot.
And that's particularly why I thought we'd talk about this
(16:15):
one tonight back on Nightside.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Joined the conversation right after these messages.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
It's Nightside with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
I guess it is Jeff Gjacolby Jeff, we have clicked here.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
We've got a lot of phone calls, and so we're
perilously close to the nine to thirty newscast, and I
just want to emphasize that people can have a conversation
about this, and I'm sure some of these callers are
going to have some very interesting points of view, but
you got to take a couple of minutes of a
(16:49):
break here hold your thought because we got the news
which we got to take at nine thirty, and I'll
be right back with Jeff Jacoby. You know, Jeff, this
is a great arguable column because I can think about
it from either perspective.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Uh, And I'm still kind of making up my mind
do I agree with you or not?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
But I suspect my listeners are going to either say
yes no, and we'll probably have have some great conversation
right after the news. So I hope you'll stay with us,
get comfortable, we will have fun again. It's Jeff Jacoby,
Boston Globe, and he writes not only opinion op ed
columns in the Globe, but every Tuesday he produces a
(17:28):
very thoughtful, interesting piece called Arguable. I have one listener
who is a particularly big fan of your Arguable newsletter.
Speaker 5 (17:38):
Ale, Yeah, sure I do.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I'm sure I do. We'll be back with Jeff to
Koby Belivia. That is a compliment. Trust me, we'll be back.
I know, I know we'll be back. Jeff's a great
friend for many many years. Back on Nights Side, we'll
get to the phone calls immediately after the news.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Side with Dan Ray, I'm Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
We're talking with Jeff Jacoby of the Boston Globe. He's
an off ed columnies to see him a couple of
times a week, and then he also does a newsletter
it's called arguable easy to get. Let's get to our
phones and see what people have to say. I want
to start off with Maria in Plymouth. Maria, welcome back
to Night Side. You're all with Jeff Jacoby.
Speaker 8 (18:23):
Hi, Maria, congratulations in your eighteen years.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Thanks very much. We started nineteen tomorrow, so that's okay.
Jeff's Jeff greeted you and said, HELO.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Go right ahead, and Jeff are rare.
Speaker 8 (18:34):
So Jeff, you mentioned like the Bible, and I just
want to say, like most Christians know, the Our Father
says to forgive us our trustices, we forgive those to
sit against us.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
So I notice the words that you just said, forgive
us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Nowhere in the Our Father is there any suggestion that
we have a right to forgive the trespasses of people,
of those who sit against others. You ask God for forgiveness,
(19:09):
and you say, please forgive me God, just as I
promise to forgive Jeff Jacoby if he sins against me.
But you don't say to God, forgive me, and I'll
forgive anybody who hurts Jeff Jacoby. Because you have no
more right to forgive somebody who sins against me than
I have to forgive somebody who sins against you. The
(19:29):
words of the our Father, they demonstrate the point that
I'm making. Forgiveness is to be offered by someone who
has personally experienced the wrong. But you have no right
to forgive someone else for the wrong that they did
to someone else.
Speaker 8 (19:48):
But doesn't God say that when a husband and wife
are married, the two become one, so they are one.
So I think he perfectly has the right. She has
the right to forgive man for doing something to her.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
And you and Maria would do you think that that
means that Charlie Kirk's assassin now has a clearer conscience
that if he dies now he'll go to heaven because
he no longer has the guilt of the murder on
his soul.
Speaker 8 (20:21):
I really believe that your forgiveness is an act of obedience.
God tells you to do that, and it releases the
perpetrator to be taken care of by the Lord. It's
no longer up to you. The Lord will deal with them.
And I do think there are consequences for person. They're
definitely going to still have consequences. It doesn't relieve them
(20:43):
for their consequences. It's more something you do. It's not
even a feeling. It's an act of obedience. It may
become a feeling later, but right off God tells you
to do it, it's an act of obedience. And I,
in my experience, for giving somebody releases me from that.
And then you know, I eventually get to the part
(21:04):
where I can actually feel that it's it's accomplished, but
it isn't instantaneous.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
Well, I really agree with you that that when we
forgive those who have done wrong to us, that we
are doing something good for ourselves. And if you if
you look at the piece that I wrote, I actually
quote in there a prayer that I say every night
and j Wish prayer that I say every night, in
which I basically say what you began with, I asked
God to forgive me because and that I explicitly say
(21:34):
that I forgive anyone who has wronged me. But I
would never say that I'm forgiving somebody for what they
did to another person. I can forgive what was done
to me, but I have no right to forgive what
somebody did to you.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I'm gonna Maria, I think that you've made some really
interesting arguments.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
You respond, lady, let me just read to you, if
I could.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The prayers that that Jeff uh says every night, in
consistent with his religion of Judaism. He says, Master of
the Universe, I hereby forgive anyone who angered or antagonized me,
or sinned against me, whether physically or financially, or through disrespect,
or in any other manner affecting me, whether involuntarily or willfully,
(22:19):
carelessly or deliberately, whether by word of my deed, I
forgive every person. Let no one incur a punishment because
of me. That's that's a pretty nice prayer in the
Jewish tradition.
Speaker 5 (22:30):
I would say, I was that as a child, and
then when my kids were born and learned to read,
you know, I taught it to them. So forgiveness is
very important in in Judaism and in Christianity. In fact,
I would say, because forgiveness is so important and in Judaism,
it became important in Christianity since that was the religion
(22:52):
that that Christianity grew out of.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Absolutely, Maria a great cause, thank you for one.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
It depends what kind of a day they're having, But
I think to say that husband and wife for one,
doesn't mean literally they are the same person. You know,
if a husband commits a crime and the scent to prison,
the wife can't show up and say I'll take his
place in the jail cell. It's a spiritual bond, it's
a it's an emotional bond, it's maybe even you know,
(23:23):
a bond in the world to come. But but it
doesn't mean that they are legally the same.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
All right, Maria, A great call. Okay, thank you so much,
Jeff Gray. This is this is what makes night Tide
so much fun. An hour with Jeff Jacoby. Thanks Maria,
talk soon. Let me make a little bit more fun.
Here comes my pal, Harvey silverglit.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Harvey.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
You're all you have to Cooby. You guys know each
other very well.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Harvey. I forgive you so now, Harvey.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
I think Jeff underestimates the difference between the God of
the Old and the God of the New Testament. The
God of the New Testament would never drown destroy the
residents of Sadom Wungmohra. The God of the New Testament
(24:15):
is a god of forgiveness. The God of the Old
Testament is a god of vengeance.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
But arguably we think it's the same God. Right.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Yes, but only when.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
It comes to the law, when it comes to the
First Amendment, when it comes to the criminal justice system.
I defer to your superior knowledge. When it comes to
what is in the Hebrew Bible and what the go
the normative teachings in Judaism of God are. You're going
to have to differ to me because I studied it
and have lived it a lot more intensively over the
(24:51):
last sixty years than you have. I will show you.
I will show you passage after passage. The Hebrew Bible
is filled with expressions of love and forgiveness and mercy,
and and understanding and yearning by God for human beings.
And over and over again. God offers to forgive, pleads with,
(25:13):
pleads with with with people to repent, speaks of himself
as a as a as a father who loves his bride,
or as a mother who loves her children. This the
notion that the Jewish, that the God of the Jewish
Bible is vindictive and evil and wicked.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
That's what I didn't I didn't say evil. I didn't
say but a one has to pay for one's crimes.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
That's true Christianity too. Christianity has a very well developed
theology of purgatory and hell and punishment after death. That
that that is not a concept that is known in
Christianity but not in Judaism. The idea that there's a
world after this world and the ultimately good is repaid
(26:05):
and evil is repaid. Those are fundamental certainly to Judaism
and Christianity. I don't know about you know, about all
other religions. In fact, one of the thirteen articles of
Jewish faith you know that you can find printed in
any prayer book is that, you know, Jews are taught
to believe with the complete faith that God will reward,
(26:26):
will ultimately reward good behavior and ultimately punish bad behavior.
That's not vindictive, that that's just a way of saying
that there is a moral order to the world and
God wants that order to be upheld. And you know,
to bring up totdom and gomora as though it's never
been debated before, as though it's never you know, provoked questions.
I mean, there you can certainly find plenty of things
(26:46):
that are full of you know, Judaism is very much
a religion of argument and debate and discussion, and for
three and a half thousand years, Jews have been wrestling
with every single passage that you know that raises questions.
But but the God of love that Christianity, uh, you know,
(27:11):
is taught to revere comes from Judaism. There are clearly
theological differences, there are not trital differences. But to say
that that that the God of Jenism is not the
God of love and forgiveness, I mean, that's just a mistake.
Speaker 9 (27:26):
All right, will give you five go ahead, God, the
God of the New Testament, would never wipe out humanity,
and he hasn't.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
We're still here, all.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Right, okay on that point of agreement, Harvey is always
thanks for thank you for checking in, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Thanks Harvy. We'll talk soon, okay, Thanks, my friend, have
a great night.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
We'll take a break, and I got Bob and Mike
David will get to them. The only lines I we're
ope for right now is six point seven nine.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Were coming right back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
You're on Nightside with Dan ray On. Don you Bzy
Boston's news Radio?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
All right, back to the film as we go. My
guess is Jeff Jacoby Boston Globe. Interesting conversation. Let's go
next to Bob in Raindom. Bob, you are next on
Nightside with Jeff Jacoby.
Speaker 10 (28:18):
Go right, Hey Bob, Hey Dan, Hi Jeff. I actually
attended Charlie's memorial service in Arizona.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Really wow.
Speaker 10 (28:31):
Yes, I'm one of these guys that says, oh, I'm
going to do this, I'm going to do this, and
I never do it. But the I went for the
humanitarian aspect of it, just the thought of a young
man being taken away from his children and his wife.
And I think I did it more for me than
(28:52):
for him, just to kind of, I don't know, put
myself at peace or something. But anyway, so I was
sitting in that stadium and I'm going to say I'm
a backslide and Catholic, and many of the people in
that place they're a lot closer to God than I am.
And I really believe that, you know, when they cheered,
(29:15):
I was kind of horrified when she forgave him. Also
because I'm not, I guess that good a person. I
could never do that, I am, but these people, I
guess most of them in there were probably evangelical, and
they're so close to God. And they really believe Charlie
(29:37):
is with God, and I guess I do too. But
I think the best part of it, from my point
of view from being there, was to see it was
the most moving experience I've ever been to because I've
never seen people so into it.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
But let me ask you, do you have a question
for Jeff? I'm fascinating by your experience. What did you
do just decide at the last minute you're going to
get there and get it a plane and flew out there.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I mean, how did you know you're going to be
able to get in?
Speaker 10 (30:09):
Yeah? Well I signed up right away and at first
and at first they said, you know, they were going
to give tickets, but then they did away with that
and we just waited in line a couple hours and
actually everybody got in that was in line. But anyway,
so my question, I guess I don't really have a question,
but Jeff, only to clarify how some people could applaud
(30:32):
that and forgive because they're so close to God whereas
we mere humans are not, and we.
Speaker 5 (30:40):
So first of all, I mean, it sounds like a
very meaningful experience that you had, and I'm sure it
was extremely meaningful for you know, tens of thousands of
people who were in the studios in the stadium there
with you. But I would I would disagree with you
and say that the reason that so many people cheered
is because they were close to God. Doesn't sound quite
right to me. I think that a lot of people
(31:01):
cheered to hear Erica Kirk say that she forgives her
husband's murderer, just like they cheered, or you know, or
that minister on Martha's Vineyard said that people should, you know,
should forgive Timothy mcveay, and just like you know, the
brother of the of the victim in Atlanta said that
he forgives the cop who recklessly shot and killed his brother.
(31:27):
The reason people applaud those kind of statements is because
they've been taught that if they're truly righteous Christians, that's
what they're supposed to do. And over and over again.
I know it sounds a little presumptuous for me to
say it's a misunderstanding, but over and over again, that
misunderstanding of Jesus' teaching has been drummed into the heads
(31:50):
of countless Christians who think that to be a good
Christian means you automatically forgive anything, no matter how evil,
no matter how and no matter whether the person who
did the wrong thing is even solidy for doing it.
I don't think that means that they're close to God.
I think that their cheering and their ovation simply reflected
(32:14):
the way that they were taught, and what they have
been taught to believe is their obligation if they are religious.
And I'm trying to inject two notes of clarification. The
two things that I think they could be clarified are, One,
nothing in Christianity says that you should or even may
(32:36):
forgive an evil done to another person by someone else.
And number two, there's nothing in Christianity that says that
forgiveness is that you're entitled to be forgiven, that anyone
is entitled to be forgiven, even if they aren't sorry,
even if they don't repent. That's why you call yourself
a backslighting Catholic. That's why the Catholic Church has confession.
(33:02):
Before you can be forgiven, you first have to confess.
You have to acknowledge that you did something wrong. You
have to say, forgive me, Father, for I have sinned,
and then you have to itemize your sins. I'll tell
you in synagogue this week for twenty five hours, dudes
are going to be, you know, spending a lot of
time in synagogue, not eating, not drinking, saying a lot
(33:22):
of prayers, and a big chunk of the of the
Day of Atonement liturgy is exactly that we stand up
and we go through this long litany of sins and
we itemize them one by one, and effectively what we
are all saying to our Father in heaven is forgive us, Father,
for we have sinned. So those are my two points,
all right?
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Correct?
Speaker 5 (33:43):
Body else is wrongdoing and nobody has the right. Nobody
should be forgiven if they're not even Sorry.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Bob somenight Claul, when we got open lines, I want
to hear more about your experience going out and going
back and what it was like inside that stadium. Thanks
so much for the call, right, Thanks, Bob. Let me
try to get two in. Mike in New Hampshire. Know
I've been holding on for a while, but I got
you win one more. I'd like to accommodate both. Go ahead, Mike,
your question for Jeff Jacoby of the Boston Globe.
Speaker 6 (34:09):
Hi, Jeff, Hi, Dan great, A very good conversation here
and I totally agree with Jeff and in some ways,
and yet I still believe as a person I can
forgive that person personally. What I can't do is offer
them remission of sins in order for them to go
(34:31):
to heaven. But there's no other name given other than
Jesus that can do that. So when I saw her
say I forgive him, I took it that she forgave
him in a personal sense, not the remission of sins
in order to achieve heaven, for there's no other name
other than Jesus Christ himself.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
I think it was her again, Jeff is making the
point that she doesn't really had that authority. You got
to read the piece, the arguable piece, because it's well written,
well reasoned, and I probably should have given homework assignment
last night. But but Mike, thank you. I'm going to
try to get one more in here if I can. Okay,
but you made a very powerful point. Okay, thank you, Mike,
(35:18):
appreciate it. Okay, only got a couple of minutes left.
Let me go to David in San Francisco. David want
to try to avoid you on the plank. Go right ahead,
your own Jeff Jacobe.
Speaker 11 (35:27):
Oh, thanks, justin, Dan, I just opened up your FCC column.
I guess that's your newest column, and they're on the whole.
I generally agree with it, but there are a couple
of nuances to it.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
You're not talking about the SEC column here, David.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Please, if you want to talk about the column that
we're that we're talking about, that's great.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
But to start on a different.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Subject at at nine fifty seven, you really push it.
Speaker 12 (35:57):
If you're talking about the forgiveness saying, oh, I I
generally agree with the way you're running it. One of
the scams that Trump is trying to pull is get
other people to demand forgiveness. He doesn't ask for it,
he gets other people to demand forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Again, David, I know that you're so focused on Trump.
This is really not a Trump conversation. So you know what,
We're going to let you swim back to San Francisco
if you have the plank.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Thanks David, appreciate the call. Jeff kind of held him
to the end.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Normally you hold the best for last, but it always
comes back to Trump. And I don't think that was
really what we were talking about tonight, but I so
enjoyed the conversation. But I.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
Forgive him good.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
That's great.
Speaker 6 (36:47):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Jeff.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
If folks want to get on the arguable mailing list
so they can get your arguable newsletter, give it.
Speaker 5 (36:57):
To us dot com slash arguable, Globe dot com slash arguable.
And if you can't remember that, then just send me
an email Jacoby at Globe dot com and I'll be
happy to connect with you. In fact, anybody who's listening
who wants to continue the conversation by email, I'm very
happy to engage.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
You are a prolific writer and a great thanker and Jeff,
as always, you never disappoint. Thank you so much for
coming on. Say hi to all of my friends, both
of them at the Globe.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
Okay, I will, and happy anniversary. That's a great milestone.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:29):
It is the number in Jewish life, you know. Eighteen
is the numerical value of the word Hi, which means
life and Hebrew, so to life, Dan, and I hope
there's at least another good eighteen.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Years, maybe eighteen months at this point, but no, thank
you so much and thanks for being a part of
it periodically.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
And I have a lot of friends at the Globe.
I really do.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
People who I agree with and people I disagree with,
but you're one of the guys who I have a
tough time disagree with, so.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Because I think you so smart. Thanks buddy, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
As always, we'll talk soon and again a great season here,
Happy New Year, and you know, you know, if I
had a bottle of honey, I passed it through the
through the through.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
A sweet New Year.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
Thank you, my friend, Thank you all.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Right, Jeff Jacoby, Boston, Globe, Globe dot Com slash arguable.
When we come back, we're going to talk about the
announcement made of the White House yesterday by both President
Trump and Prime Minister net Yahoo of Israel.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
The ball is in Hamas's court.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I want to have a conversation about this because I
think they need to come up with a decision very quickly.
I will explain why I believe that after the ten
o'clock News
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Thanks very much, Dan Walkins.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I am delighted to welcome back to Night's Side someone
who's been a guest here many times, but not often enough,
Jeff Jacoby, Boston Globe opinion columnist. And he also writes
a newsletter that comes out every Tuesday, which is called Audiable.
Welcome back, Jeff.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
How are you, Dan?
Speaker 5 (00:30):
It's good to hear your voice, and as everyone in
my community is saying these days, happy new.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Year to you, and a happy and a healthy and
a prosperous new year to you as well.
Speaker 5 (00:43):
Uh, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
All in our audience who are members of the Jewish faith.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
You wrote a really interesting well, you always.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Write interesting pieces, there's no doubt about that, but you
wrote a really interesting piece today, inarguable. And by the way,
when we finish up tonight, the subscription arguable is I
understand that is free of charge?
Speaker 5 (01:06):
Absolutely? Yeah, anybody who you know? I write two newsletters,
two columns a week, and have been doing so in
the Boston Globe since you and I were young men,
yes the last for the last now nine years. I
also write a weekly newsletter it's an additional material that
goes out by emails. It's it's free, sponsored by the Globe,
(01:29):
and you can sign up for it in about two seconds.
Anybody who's interested just just go to Globe dot com
slash arguable, Globe dot com slash arguable, put in your
your email address and and you'll start getting it. And
in arguable, I usually have a little bit more room
(01:49):
to explore things at a little bit greater length than
I do in a newspaper column. And I you know,
I've used the newsletter to write about all kinds of things,
some of which are you know, straight out of the news,
but also occasionally more quirky subjects things, and I'm a
little bit more personal. I don't I don't hear from
(02:09):
too many people who say that they don't find it
interesting gread, So I would I would love it if
our listeners who don't already get arguable would go sign
up for Globe dot com slash arguable.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
And you tend to be you're kind of a writer
center guy, but you also tend to be a bit
of a contrarian. I would say, do you do do
you accept that that characterization or no? Sure?
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Although it's not it's I don't know that it's by.
Speaker 6 (02:38):
Instinct.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
In other words, if the world were behaving the way
I thought it should be behaving, I might not find
anything to be contrary about it. I might just be,
you know, cheering and saying, keep it up, world, keep
doing more of this. But for my whole career, and
you know me, for most of it, I have tended
to march to the beat of a different drummer from
(03:00):
most of my colleagues at the Boston Globe certainly, and
for most of my colleagues or many of my colleagues
in the mainstream media. My politics are part of it,
you know, As you mentioned, I'm writ of center. But
part of it, I think is also that I just
come from from a different personal background that people might
(03:21):
think is typical of many people in the mainstream media.
I grew up in a religious environment. I attended a
religious day school from kindergarten through high school. So religion
has always been really important to me. You know, I'm
obsessed with books and love to read. Granted, a lot
(03:42):
of our listeners and a lot of Globe readers do
the same, but I often refer to books in the
material that I write but in general, I think that
I just reflect in my writing the worldview that I've
developed and shaped over the course of a lifetime. And
whether people agree with me or not isn't that's not
that's not the reason that you know, that's that's not
(04:03):
what's important. What's important is that I make a fair
argument and get people something to think about. And when,
you know, when people will write and say, well, I
didn't agree with what you know, it's what you had
in the newsletter, I tell them that's why I call
it arguable. Yeah, it's not claiming to be absolute truth,
but it's claiming to be making a fair argument. And
if you want to, you know, I do and print
(04:26):
what you do on the radio. You make your best argument.
You try to be reasonable, and you hope that the
people that you're communicating with will consider what you're saying,
and if they deem it worthy, if they deem it persuasive,
maybe it'll change their opinion or give them something to
think about, or just you know, plant a feed that
might bear fruit in the future.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, and so today your piece that came out talks
about that horrific shooting in Utah earlier this month that
took the life of Charlie Kirk, and you focused on
some words of forgiveness from his young widow, Erica Kirk.
(05:09):
I just want to play first of all, what she said,
and then I want to point out the points that
you make, which I think are really interesting, and see
if people want to respond. Let's first listen to this
is the words that Erica Kirk spoke at the memorial
ceremony at that football stadium in Arizona where she forgave
(05:31):
her husband's murderer cut number fourteen, Rob father.
Speaker 7 (05:35):
Forgive them for they not know what they do. That man,
that young man, I forgive him.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And it was obviously warmly received. And then subsequently a
lot of religious leaders who you mentioned today gave her
tremendous kudos for that. But you looked at it a
little bit more carefully, and maybe I want to make
sure that you have a chance. I'm not going to
put your words. You put the words on paper today.
(06:30):
You thought that there was some real questions about whether
or not well Erica Kirk had the right to technically
forgive the transgression against someone else, including her late husband.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
What I strongly believe, and this grows out of my
religious edition, which I will point out to all of
our listeners, was also the religious tradition that Jesus was
raised in. Jesus, as everyone knows, was an observant Jew,
and the values that he was raised with are the
values that I was raised with as an observant Jew.
(07:11):
And in Judaism and therefore in Christianity, forgiveness is very important.
Forgiveness is mentioned over and over and over again in
the Hebrew Bible. This week, tomorrow evening begins Don't Kippour,
which is the day of Atonement. Jews all over the
world will be in synagogues for twenty five hours of
(07:32):
penitence and confession and prayer and joining together to ask
God's forgiveness for our sins and to try to set
the stage to be better in the year ahead. So
all of that Christianity and Judaism have in common, but
there is no There is no major religion, not Judaism,
(07:54):
not Christianity, not Islam, as far as I know, not
Hinduism or Buddhism. There is no major religion that teaches
that any human being has the right to forgive the
crimes and the sins and the offenses committed against someone else.
If somebody bursts into your homewords, your studio and puts
(08:17):
a bullet through your head, I have no right to
get up, no matter how much you mean to me,
no matter how much the value and virtual forgiveness mean
to me, no matter how passionately I believe that this
is the right thing to do. I have no right
to get up and tell the murderer of you, or
any other person I bestow forgiveness.
Speaker 6 (08:40):
Now.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
I don't stand here. I didn't write in order to
condemn Erica Kirk. I can't imagine the grief of a
young widow with small children seeing her husband killed in
such a terrible way. Whatever she whatever solvace she gets
out of saying that she forgives, I'm not condemning her.
(09:06):
And perhaps one could say, in a sort of technical way,
well maybe she was just forgiving what that assassin did
to her. That she wasn't She didn't mean to forgive
forgive him for committee murder, but rather for the pain
that he inflicted on her personally. Okay, fine, I have
no problem with any of that. What troubled me so
(09:27):
much was this explosion of cheers, the ovation, all the
religious leaders who stepped forward to say that was a
beautiful moment of grace. That was wonderful. That's what it
means to be to be a good and decent person. Now,
you and I have known each other for a very
long time. Dan and I think we would both agree.
(09:49):
We would both say that there has to be an order,
a moral order to things in this world, and that
before there can be forgiveness, there has to be repentance.
Judaism and Christianity like teach that God is a forgiving God.
You know, the Hebrew prophets no less than the Apostles
(10:10):
spoke over and over again about God's willingness to forgive,
but always that willingness to forgive. Indeed, God's eagerness to
forgive is coupled with the call to repent. You can
earn forgiveness by repenting for what you've done wrong. That's
the whole purpose of the day of Atonement of Young Kippoor.
(10:30):
That's why the Orthodox Jews who attend Orthodox synagogues and
recite the daily prayers, as I and my family members do,
pray daily for forgiveness for our sins and repentance for
our sins. My concern was with the idea which gets
so much applause in our culture these days, that all
(10:54):
someone has to do is say I forgive that person's
evil deed, and something beautiful has been done. And as
I noted in the column, this is this is far
from the first time that there has been a big, public,
spectacular act of or purporting to forgive like this. I
mentioned this went back to the nineteen nineties, but I
(11:15):
mentioned it because it happened in Massachusetts on Martha's Vineyard
when Bill Clinton was president. It was a few weeks
or a few months after Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City terrorists,
had been found guilty of murdering hundreds of people and
maiming many hundreds more, and kids.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
And little kids, by the way.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Absolutely and President Clinton was visiting Massachusetts that we and
then it was a Sunday, and he went to the
Martha's Vineyard tabernacle, and there was a there was a
minister who preached a sermon, and he said to his parishioners,
including President Clinton, I earned you to look at a
picture of Timothy McVeigh and to forgive him. If we
(12:00):
professed to be Christians, that we are called to love
and forgive I remember how outraged I was at those words.
Then if if if my child, or or my brother,
or my uh you know, my my my close friend
had been one of those blown up by Timothy McVay,
I would have just been incandescent with outrage at hearing
(12:23):
someone claiming that what God wants them to do is
to forgive automatically, even though Timothy mcveay never whispered a
single word of repentance or remorse or sadness.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, the only thing I remember that they was the
only death row inmate who dropped all of his appeals
because he wanted to get it over with.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Every other death row inmate keeps appealing, you know, on
and on and on. They was the one guy.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
You know, it's interesting whenever there's a president at a church,
and most many times a matter of I I think
there was a minister down at the Washington Cathedral, I
believe when during the inauguration ceremonies the morning of that
(13:13):
and sort of directed a lecture at President Trump. You
don't recall what what President Clinton's reaction was that day.
Knowing him he's a pretty good politician. He probably took
it in stride, walked out and didn't comment one way
one way or the other.
Speaker 5 (13:27):
Actually after this, I mean he didn't say as far
as I know, he didn't say anything specifically about the
sermon publicly. But after the service was over, he and
Hillary Clinton and that minister and the minister's wife went
off to have breakfast. And I just remember that the
whole thing to scrubbed me so badly. And you see
this so many times. There was a there was a
(13:49):
case last year or two years ago, and I think
it was an Atlanta and Atlanta cop shot dead a
guy who was sitting in his own home on his
own couch. I think he was, you know, like drinking
coffee or watching TV. Because she was completely distracted and
she thought that she had walked into her apartment. Yes,
(14:11):
and you know she was no adult. She just grabbed
her gun and shot the guy.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Dead in his own apartment. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
So the Justice Department did what it was supposed to do.
I mean, not Justice department, the justice system did what
it was supposed to do. She was stripped of her badge,
she was prosecuted, and as far as I know, she's
in prison. She was convicted. But I was just I
was I found it hard to understand what was going
through the mind of the people sitting there when the
(14:41):
brother of the man who was killed announced in court
that he forgave this former cop for killing his brother,
and then said that he wanted he would like the
judge's permission to be able to get up and give
the killer a hug. I don't understand that. I don't
under people well, different people righteous.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Let me do.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Let me do this, Jeff, though it's just a stage
for a performance.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Yes, yes, we'll take a quick break.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
My guess is Jeff Tacolby, if you'd like to comment
on what Jeff had to say, and again it's it's
really the thing about the arguable columns that he writes
a newsletter that he writes I find there they're very
thought provoking. So if you would like to weigh in
on what Jeff had to say six one seven, four
ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty.
(15:32):
I think everybody, everybody certainly understands the the the agony
that the widow of Charlie Kirk has gone through and
the road. I'm sure she will have, you know, support
in many respects, but she will she will always be
without the love of her life as a result of
(15:53):
this cold blooded, cowardly act by this Tyler Robinson. Dude,
my name is Dan, This is Nightside. My guest Jeff Jacoby.
Feel free to join the conversation. It's the whole idea
is to make us think, and Jeff Jacoby, of all
the opinion writers at the Globe, makes me think a lot.
And that's particularly why I thought we'd talk about this
(16:15):
one tonight back on Nightside.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Joined the conversation right after these messages.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
It's Nightside with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
I guess it is Jeff Gjacolby Jeff, we have clicked here.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
We've got a lot of phone calls, and so we're
perilously close to the nine to thirty newscast, and I
just want to emphasize that people can have a conversation
about this, and I'm sure some of these callers are
going to have some very interesting points of view, but
you got to take a couple of minutes of a
(16:49):
break here hold your thought because we got the news
which we got to take at nine thirty, and I'll
be right back with Jeff Jacoby. You know, Jeff, this
is a great arguable column because I can think about
it from either perspective.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Uh, And I'm still kind of making up my mind
do I agree with you or not?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
But I suspect my listeners are going to either say
yes no, and we'll probably have have some great conversation
right after the news. So I hope you'll stay with us,
get comfortable, we will have fun again. It's Jeff Jacoby,
Boston Globe, and he writes not only opinion op ed
columns in the Globe, but every Tuesday he produces a
(17:28):
very thoughtful, interesting piece called Arguable. I have one listener
who is a particularly big fan of your Arguable newsletter.
Speaker 5 (17:38):
Ale, Yeah, sure I do.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I'm sure I do. We'll be back with Jeff to
Koby Belivia. That is a compliment. Trust me, we'll be back.
I know, I know we'll be back. Jeff's a great
friend for many many years. Back on Nights Side, we'll
get to the phone calls immediately after the news.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Side with Dan Ray, I'm Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
We're talking with Jeff Jacoby of the Boston Globe. He's
an off ed columnies to see him a couple of
times a week, and then he also does a newsletter
it's called arguable easy to get. Let's get to our
phones and see what people have to say. I want
to start off with Maria in Plymouth. Maria, welcome back
to Night Side. You're all with Jeff Jacoby.
Speaker 8 (18:23):
Hi, Maria, congratulations in your eighteen years.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Thanks very much. We started nineteen tomorrow, so that's okay.
Jeff's Jeff greeted you and said, HELO.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Go right ahead, and Jeff are rare.
Speaker 8 (18:34):
So Jeff, you mentioned like the Bible, and I just
want to say, like most Christians know, the Our Father
says to forgive us our trustices, we forgive those to
sit against us.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
So I notice the words that you just said, forgive
us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Nowhere in the Our Father is there any suggestion that
we have a right to forgive the trespasses of people,
of those who sit against others. You ask God for forgiveness,
(19:09):
and you say, please forgive me God, just as I
promise to forgive Jeff Jacoby if he sins against me.
But you don't say to God, forgive me, and I'll
forgive anybody who hurts Jeff Jacoby. Because you have no
more right to forgive somebody who sins against me than
I have to forgive somebody who sins against you. The
(19:29):
words of the our Father, they demonstrate the point that
I'm making. Forgiveness is to be offered by someone who
has personally experienced the wrong. But you have no right
to forgive someone else for the wrong that they did
to someone else.
Speaker 8 (19:48):
But doesn't God say that when a husband and wife
are married, the two become one, so they are one.
So I think he perfectly has the right. She has
the right to forgive man for doing something to her.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
And you and Maria would do you think that that
means that Charlie Kirk's assassin now has a clearer conscience
that if he dies now he'll go to heaven because
he no longer has the guilt of the murder on
his soul.
Speaker 8 (20:21):
I really believe that your forgiveness is an act of obedience.
God tells you to do that, and it releases the
perpetrator to be taken care of by the Lord. It's
no longer up to you. The Lord will deal with them.
And I do think there are consequences for person. They're
definitely going to still have consequences. It doesn't relieve them
(20:43):
for their consequences. It's more something you do. It's not
even a feeling. It's an act of obedience. It may
become a feeling later, but right off God tells you
to do it, it's an act of obedience. And I,
in my experience, for giving somebody releases me from that.
And then you know, I eventually get to the part
(21:04):
where I can actually feel that it's it's accomplished, but
it isn't instantaneous.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
Well, I really agree with you that that when we
forgive those who have done wrong to us, that we
are doing something good for ourselves. And if you if
you look at the piece that I wrote, I actually
quote in there a prayer that I say every night
and j Wish prayer that I say every night, in
which I basically say what you began with, I asked
God to forgive me because and that I explicitly say
(21:34):
that I forgive anyone who has wronged me. But I
would never say that I'm forgiving somebody for what they
did to another person. I can forgive what was done
to me, but I have no right to forgive what
somebody did to you.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I'm gonna Maria, I think that you've made some really
interesting arguments.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
You respond, lady, let me just read to you, if
I could.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The prayers that that Jeff uh says every night, in
consistent with his religion of Judaism. He says, Master of
the Universe, I hereby forgive anyone who angered or antagonized me,
or sinned against me, whether physically or financially, or through disrespect,
or in any other manner affecting me, whether involuntarily or willfully,
(22:19):
carelessly or deliberately, whether by word of my deed, I
forgive every person. Let no one incur a punishment because
of me. That's that's a pretty nice prayer in the
Jewish tradition.
Speaker 5 (22:30):
I would say, I was that as a child, and
then when my kids were born and learned to read,
you know, I taught it to them. So forgiveness is
very important in in Judaism and in Christianity. In fact,
I would say, because forgiveness is so important and in Judaism,
it became important in Christianity since that was the religion
(22:52):
that that Christianity grew out of.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Absolutely, Maria a great cause, thank you for one.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
It depends what kind of a day they're having, But
I think to say that husband and wife for one,
doesn't mean literally they are the same person. You know,
if a husband commits a crime and the scent to prison,
the wife can't show up and say I'll take his
place in the jail cell. It's a spiritual bond, it's
a it's an emotional bond, it's maybe even you know,
(23:23):
a bond in the world to come. But but it
doesn't mean that they are legally the same.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
All right, Maria, A great call. Okay, thank you so much,
Jeff Gray. This is this is what makes night Tide
so much fun. An hour with Jeff Jacoby. Thanks Maria,
talk soon. Let me make a little bit more fun.
Here comes my pal, Harvey silverglit.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Harvey.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
You're all you have to Cooby. You guys know each
other very well.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Harvey. I forgive you so now, Harvey.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
I think Jeff underestimates the difference between the God of
the Old and the God of the New Testament. The
God of the New Testament would never drown destroy the
residents of Sadom Wungmohra. The God of the New Testament
(24:15):
is a god of forgiveness. The God of the Old
Testament is a god of vengeance.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
But arguably we think it's the same God. Right.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Yes, but only when.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
It comes to the law, when it comes to the
First Amendment, when it comes to the criminal justice system.
I defer to your superior knowledge. When it comes to
what is in the Hebrew Bible and what the go
the normative teachings in Judaism of God are. You're going
to have to differ to me because I studied it
and have lived it a lot more intensively over the
(24:51):
last sixty years than you have. I will show you.
I will show you passage after passage. The Hebrew Bible
is filled with expressions of love and forgiveness and mercy,
and and understanding and yearning by God for human beings.
And over and over again. God offers to forgive, pleads with,
(25:13):
pleads with with with people to repent, speaks of himself
as a as a as a father who loves his bride,
or as a mother who loves her children. This the
notion that the Jewish, that the God of the Jewish
Bible is vindictive and evil and wicked.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
That's what I didn't I didn't say evil. I didn't
say but a one has to pay for one's crimes.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
That's true Christianity too. Christianity has a very well developed
theology of purgatory and hell and punishment after death. That
that that is not a concept that is known in
Christianity but not in Judaism. The idea that there's a
world after this world and the ultimately good is repaid
(26:05):
and evil is repaid. Those are fundamental certainly to Judaism
and Christianity. I don't know about you know, about all
other religions. In fact, one of the thirteen articles of
Jewish faith you know that you can find printed in
any prayer book is that, you know, Jews are taught
to believe with the complete faith that God will reward,
(26:26):
will ultimately reward good behavior and ultimately punish bad behavior.
That's not vindictive, that that's just a way of saying
that there is a moral order to the world and
God wants that order to be upheld. And you know,
to bring up totdom and gomora as though it's never
been debated before, as though it's never you know, provoked questions.
I mean, there you can certainly find plenty of things
(26:46):
that are full of you know, Judaism is very much
a religion of argument and debate and discussion, and for
three and a half thousand years, Jews have been wrestling
with every single passage that you know that raises questions.
But but the God of love that Christianity, uh, you know,
(27:11):
is taught to revere comes from Judaism. There are clearly
theological differences, there are not trital differences. But to say
that that that the God of Jenism is not the
God of love and forgiveness, I mean, that's just a mistake.
Speaker 9 (27:26):
All right, will give you five go ahead, God, the
God of the New Testament, would never wipe out humanity,
and he hasn't.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
We're still here, all.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Right, okay on that point of agreement, Harvey is always
thanks for thank you for checking in, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Thanks Harvy. We'll talk soon, okay, Thanks, my friend, have
a great night.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
We'll take a break, and I got Bob and Mike
David will get to them. The only lines I we're
ope for right now is six point seven nine.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Were coming right back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
You're on Nightside with Dan ray On. Don you Bzy
Boston's news Radio?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
All right, back to the film as we go. My
guess is Jeff Jacoby Boston Globe. Interesting conversation. Let's go
next to Bob in Raindom. Bob, you are next on
Nightside with Jeff Jacoby.
Speaker 10 (28:18):
Go right, Hey Bob, Hey Dan, Hi Jeff. I actually
attended Charlie's memorial service in Arizona.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Really wow.
Speaker 10 (28:31):
Yes, I'm one of these guys that says, oh, I'm
going to do this, I'm going to do this, and
I never do it. But the I went for the
humanitarian aspect of it, just the thought of a young
man being taken away from his children and his wife.
And I think I did it more for me than
(28:52):
for him, just to kind of, I don't know, put
myself at peace or something. But anyway, so I was
sitting in that stadium and I'm going to say I'm
a backslide and Catholic, and many of the people in
that place they're a lot closer to God than I am.
And I really believe that, you know, when they cheered,
(29:15):
I was kind of horrified when she forgave him. Also
because I'm not, I guess that good a person. I
could never do that, I am, but these people, I
guess most of them in there were probably evangelical, and
they're so close to God. And they really believe Charlie
(29:37):
is with God, and I guess I do too. But
I think the best part of it, from my point
of view from being there, was to see it was
the most moving experience I've ever been to because I've
never seen people so into it.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
But let me ask you, do you have a question
for Jeff? I'm fascinating by your experience. What did you
do just decide at the last minute you're going to
get there and get it a plane and flew out there.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I mean, how did you know you're going to be
able to get in?
Speaker 10 (30:09):
Yeah? Well I signed up right away and at first
and at first they said, you know, they were going
to give tickets, but then they did away with that
and we just waited in line a couple hours and
actually everybody got in that was in line. But anyway,
so my question, I guess I don't really have a question,
but Jeff, only to clarify how some people could applaud
(30:32):
that and forgive because they're so close to God whereas
we mere humans are not, and we.
Speaker 5 (30:40):
So first of all, I mean, it sounds like a
very meaningful experience that you had, and I'm sure it
was extremely meaningful for you know, tens of thousands of
people who were in the studios in the stadium there
with you. But I would I would disagree with you
and say that the reason that so many people cheered
is because they were close to God. Doesn't sound quite
right to me. I think that a lot of people
(31:01):
cheered to hear Erica Kirk say that she forgives her
husband's murderer, just like they cheered, or you know, or
that minister on Martha's Vineyard said that people should, you know,
should forgive Timothy mcveay, and just like you know, the
brother of the of the victim in Atlanta said that
he forgives the cop who recklessly shot and killed his brother.
(31:27):
The reason people applaud those kind of statements is because
they've been taught that if they're truly righteous Christians, that's
what they're supposed to do. And over and over again.
I know it sounds a little presumptuous for me to
say it's a misunderstanding, but over and over again, that
misunderstanding of Jesus' teaching has been drummed into the heads
(31:50):
of countless Christians who think that to be a good
Christian means you automatically forgive anything, no matter how evil,
no matter how and no matter whether the person who
did the wrong thing is even solidy for doing it.
I don't think that means that they're close to God.
I think that their cheering and their ovation simply reflected
(32:14):
the way that they were taught, and what they have
been taught to believe is their obligation if they are religious.
And I'm trying to inject two notes of clarification. The
two things that I think they could be clarified are, One,
nothing in Christianity says that you should or even may
(32:36):
forgive an evil done to another person by someone else.
And number two, there's nothing in Christianity that says that
forgiveness is that you're entitled to be forgiven, that anyone
is entitled to be forgiven, even if they aren't sorry,
even if they don't repent. That's why you call yourself
a backslighting Catholic. That's why the Catholic Church has confession.
(33:02):
Before you can be forgiven, you first have to confess.
You have to acknowledge that you did something wrong. You
have to say, forgive me, Father, for I have sinned,
and then you have to itemize your sins. I'll tell
you in synagogue this week for twenty five hours, dudes
are going to be, you know, spending a lot of
time in synagogue, not eating, not drinking, saying a lot
(33:22):
of prayers, and a big chunk of the of the
Day of Atonement liturgy is exactly that we stand up
and we go through this long litany of sins and
we itemize them one by one, and effectively what we
are all saying to our Father in heaven is forgive us, Father,
for we have sinned. So those are my two points,
all right?
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Correct?
Speaker 5 (33:43):
Body else is wrongdoing and nobody has the right. Nobody
should be forgiven if they're not even Sorry.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Bob somenight Claul, when we got open lines, I want
to hear more about your experience going out and going
back and what it was like inside that stadium. Thanks
so much for the call, right, Thanks, Bob. Let me
try to get two in. Mike in New Hampshire. Know
I've been holding on for a while, but I got
you win one more. I'd like to accommodate both. Go ahead, Mike,
your question for Jeff Jacoby of the Boston Globe.
Speaker 6 (34:09):
Hi, Jeff, Hi, Dan great, A very good conversation here
and I totally agree with Jeff and in some ways,
and yet I still believe as a person I can
forgive that person personally. What I can't do is offer
them remission of sins in order for them to go
(34:31):
to heaven. But there's no other name given other than
Jesus that can do that. So when I saw her
say I forgive him, I took it that she forgave
him in a personal sense, not the remission of sins
in order to achieve heaven, for there's no other name
other than Jesus Christ himself.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
I think it was her again, Jeff is making the
point that she doesn't really had that authority. You got
to read the piece, the arguable piece, because it's well written,
well reasoned, and I probably should have given homework assignment
last night. But but Mike, thank you. I'm going to
try to get one more in here if I can. Okay,
but you made a very powerful point. Okay, thank you, Mike,
(35:18):
appreciate it. Okay, only got a couple of minutes left.
Let me go to David in San Francisco. David want
to try to avoid you on the plank. Go right ahead,
your own Jeff Jacobe.
Speaker 11 (35:27):
Oh, thanks, justin, Dan, I just opened up your FCC column.
I guess that's your newest column, and they're on the whole.
I generally agree with it, but there are a couple
of nuances to it.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
You're not talking about the SEC column here, David.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Please, if you want to talk about the column that
we're that we're talking about, that's great.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
But to start on a different.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Subject at at nine fifty seven, you really push it.
Speaker 12 (35:57):
If you're talking about the forgiveness saying, oh, I I
generally agree with the way you're running it. One of
the scams that Trump is trying to pull is get
other people to demand forgiveness. He doesn't ask for it,
he gets other people to demand forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Again, David, I know that you're so focused on Trump.
This is really not a Trump conversation. So you know what,
We're going to let you swim back to San Francisco
if you have the plank.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Thanks David, appreciate the call. Jeff kind of held him
to the end.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Normally you hold the best for last, but it always
comes back to Trump. And I don't think that was
really what we were talking about tonight, but I so
enjoyed the conversation. But I.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
Forgive him good.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
That's great.
Speaker 6 (36:47):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Jeff.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
If folks want to get on the arguable mailing list
so they can get your arguable newsletter, give it.
Speaker 5 (36:57):
To us dot com slash arguable, Globe dot com slash arguable.
And if you can't remember that, then just send me
an email Jacoby at Globe dot com and I'll be
happy to connect with you. In fact, anybody who's listening
who wants to continue the conversation by email, I'm very
happy to engage.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
You are a prolific writer and a great thanker and Jeff,
as always, you never disappoint. Thank you so much for
coming on. Say hi to all of my friends, both
of them at the Globe.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
Okay, I will, and happy anniversary. That's a great milestone.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:29):
It is the number in Jewish life, you know. Eighteen
is the numerical value of the word Hi, which means
life and Hebrew, so to life, Dan, and I hope
there's at least another good eighteen.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Years, maybe eighteen months at this point, but no, thank
you so much and thanks for being a part of
it periodically.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
And I have a lot of friends at the Globe.
I really do.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
People who I agree with and people I disagree with,
but you're one of the guys who I have a
tough time disagree with, so.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Because I think you so smart. Thanks buddy, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
As always, we'll talk soon and again a great season here,
Happy New Year, and you know, you know, if I
had a bottle of honey, I passed it through the
through the through.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
A sweet New Year.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
Thank you, my friend, Thank you all.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Right, Jeff Jacoby, Boston, Globe, Globe dot Com slash arguable.
When we come back, we're going to talk about the
announcement made of the White House yesterday by both President
Trump and Prime Minister net Yahoo of Israel.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
The ball is in Hamas's court.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I want to have a conversation about this because I
think they need to come up with a decision very quickly.
I will explain why I believe that after the ten
o'clock News
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