November 8, 2025 • 40 mins
Many health experts say that freedom of expression of oneself is good for public health and personal wellbeing. However, today as much as 84% of Americans believe that self-censorship due to the fear of retaliation (like cancel culture, job termination, ostracization) is a "very serious" or "somewhat serious" problem. Do you feel comfortable speaking your mind freely today? We were joined by Dr. Chloe Carmichael, a clinical psychologist, who chatted with us about what she's seen not only in her own experience spending thousands of hours with clients about today's societal anxieties but how something has changed over the past couple of years whereas a society we no longer feel safe expressing ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
With Dan Ray WBS Costs Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Thanks very much, Al, We're going to move into the
ten o'clock hour. Earlier this week. I had a guest
in the eight o'clock hours actually on election night, November fourth,
doctor Chloe Carmichael. And I really enjoyed my conversation with
doctor Carmichael that night, so I've asked her to come
back tonight. She is she is a real advocate of
(00:31):
She's a First of all, she's a clinical psychologist, okay,
and so she deals with people and where their mind
is that Her new book is can I say that
why free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly?
The problem is that in recent years people have been
have been discouraged from speaking fearlessly. And I think doctor Carmichael,
(00:58):
you and I are pretty much on the same page
on this issue. Welcome to Night Side. How are you.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Thanks, It's great to be back with you, Dan. Yeah.
I think we're kindred spirits on the free speech issue.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, And I also think that politically we're probably pretty close.
What troubles me is that we have reached a point
in our society, both within society but within our own
families where people feel inhibited from even expressing their opinion
(01:34):
about certain subjects. And I'm not a psychologist, you're a psychologist,
but that cannot be healthy psychologically to be in a situation,
particularly with family members who you know that a conversation
about subject A, B, C, or D you just avoid it.
(01:55):
How did we ever get to that point?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yeah, I mean that's so many, so many good points
and questions in their DAN. I mean, it's interesting. Actually,
eighty four percent of Americans do feel like concern about
cancel culture. So I think you're absolutely right that a
lot of people feel afraid to express an opinion. And
absolutely you're connecting that with the fact that it even
(02:20):
comes down to breaking up families. Sometimes there's this really
disturbing trend of you know, going no contact where oftentimes
younger people will refuse to talk at all, you know,
to their parents or their grandparents. I've talked to grandparents
that are not allowed to see their very young grandchildren
(02:41):
even And this is just all over things like you know,
who did you vote for or you know, how do
you feel about transgender issues? I mean, things that you
can have disagreements about, but I don't think it should
have to come you know, down to this disown your
family thing. And then you also asked about how we
(03:02):
got here, So I mean, there's so much to unpack yet.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, no, I understand. That's why why I asked that question. Yeah,
before we go to there, let me throw another issue
out because I want to make sure that the audience
understands I'm a free speech guy just like you are.
But I also understand that there is language that was
(03:25):
used by prior generations and sometimes by the previous generation,
which is no longer acceptable under any circumstances. And you may,
I assume you will agree with me that you know
language that you would hear someone utilize, you know, sort
(03:49):
of what I would call the Archie Bunker attitude language. Now,
that was written by Norman Lear, and it was intended
to be a satire and it was a very effective
of satire. But you know, you know, when you when
you see people marching in Virginia, in Charlottesville, Virginia with
(04:10):
torches and we will not be replaced, and all of
that what I consider to be garbage. I can't even
begin to associate with that issue. That point of view,
people who engage in blood libels, and we've seen that
at some of the Palestinian College demonstrations about Jewish people
(04:33):
and even about the government of Israel. You would, I
hope you will agree with me that there are some areas,
some lines that that we as a society understand can
should not be crossed. Are you with me? Well?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yeah, you know, I think it depends, because I'm with
you in the sense that absolutely this is you know,
vocabulary vernacular that reflects ideas that I obviously don't have,
and it's not go tabularian words that I would use.
I personally would put that kind of thing into what
we call lawful but awful speech, right.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Line.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, so, I mean within the realm of the First Amendment.
For example, you could go around seeing women are stupid broads, right,
and I disagree with that, and that would fall into
that Archie bunker category. But I don't want to, you know,
legally rob someone. I'm not going to cut out their tongue. Interestingly,
though I share this in the book Members of the
(05:35):
KKK or Gi Hattie Recruiters. The way those people waited
to give up their beliefs is not by somebody telling
them you are not allowed to speak. The way that
they change their beliefs is actually by somebody sitting down
(05:55):
and inviting them to talk, to share their you know, beliefs,
and to unpack them. That's actually part of the power
of language is that allows us to step outside of ourselves,
hear our selves, think and analyze ourselves. So I agree
with you. Obviously that's not my kind of speech, it's
not my kind of scene.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
But when it.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Comes to outlawing speech, I think in a certain way,
you know, that's what the First Amendment is there for
to a certain degree, is to protect that lawful but
awful speech.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, I'm not in favor of outlawing speech, right, but
I am in favor and as a lawyer understand that
there are things that you know, again the classic as
you can't show fire in a theater, but more more
traditionally than I'm thinking, you know, you engage in fighting
(06:49):
words and you go up to someone on the street
and all of a sudden, you're just in that person's face.
I had a guest on oh within the last few weeks,
a black man who actually went out of his way
to make contact with members of the Ku Klux Klan
(07:10):
in the Maryland area written a book about it as
a matter of fact, and he he had some he
actually developed I don't know if I could call them friendships,
but he developed relationships with these leaders of the ku
Klux Klan just by doing exactly what you just said,
being brave enough to enter into a conversation and essentially
(07:37):
inquire of them why they they felt the way they did,
why they said the way they why did they believe
the things that they that they believed in? And he
was a really interesting guest. So that would be an
example of what you're talking about. What I'm talking about
is the people who well, I mean, look, people use
(08:01):
the N word. I mean that, you know, I want
nothing to do with anybody who who had their vocabulary
is so limited that that they're going to do that.
I think that's outside the bounds of the speech that
I want to hear. And I'm not sure if that's
what you're saying. I hope it's close to what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, I mean, so when I say that I, you know,
want free speech and that you know, I don't want
to outlaw you know, words, that doesn't either mean that
I have no boundaries and that I will lend my
ears to anybody anytime who says anything. And you know,
in fact, that's one of the things I talk about
in the book, is how to have good boundaries and
(08:46):
that we can absolutely, you know, just choose not to
participate in certain conversations. But that doesn't mean that we
have to try to cut out those people's tongues and
you know, prevent them.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
And I actually it's powerful metaphor cutting help people's tongues.
By the way, the fellow who wrote this book, his
name is Daryl Davis.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
He's my book. I talk about him.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Oh great, the clan whisper. Yeah, I mean, yeah, excellent. Well,
let me do this. I got to take a quick break.
I want to get phone calls six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty.
My guest is doctor Chloe Chamberlain. Her book is Can
I say that why free speech matters? And how to
(09:32):
use it fearlessly? And I really do want to drill
down doctor Carmichael on the intolerance of many on either side.
But intolerance seems to have infected the left side of
the street a lot more. I'm most of the conservatives
(09:53):
who I get on this program as callers are willing
to talk and argue and and have a conversation. But
there are a lot of people I think, who are
in what I would call the progressive movement. They have
figured it out and they they are not interested and
(10:14):
in any sort of a conversation. Which is and I
know that you're in the New York area, I believe,
which is what I fear about Mamdani, that he is
not He's going to try to rule New York in
a in a very iron fisted way, and he will
not have any you know, cabinet of of of rivals
(10:40):
as a ram Lincoln had in his cabinet, that they
will all be people who are just going to support
whatever crazy idea Mamdani tries to impose on the people
of New York City. Your thought on that, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
No, I totally agree with you. And I think there
is a link with progressivism. And you know, Mom himself
describes himself as a democratic socialist, and you know, it's
hard to even tell exactly I think the line between
that and you know, general socialism and communism and Marxism,
and you know, to your point, all of that stuff
(11:16):
hinges on this, you know, oppressor, oppressed, you know, mentality,
and so on some level, I think that they want
to co opt the language and just you know, create
division in that way. And you know, sometimes they can
do it under the cloak of kindness. It's kind of
a wolf in cheap's clothing type situation, you know, where
(11:38):
they're like, oh, well, we're just going to make everything
really kind and so therefore you can't say what you
really think because it's you know, quote hurtful when actually
we resolve differences so much better when we can talk
about them directly. Violence increases when dialogue ceases. So if
(11:58):
we want to create a more harmonious society, we don't
do it by telling people to shut up. We do
it by trying to encourage them to dialogue.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I totally agree with you, And as a matter of fact,
when we come back, I'm going to play from if
I go back to the Occupy Wall Street movement of
twenty ten, circle twenty ten. I have a woman who
actually is a teacher or was a teacher at some
point in the Los Angeles public school system, and she
(12:30):
was interviewed and she made some comments which to me
have epitomized much of what we have seen bloom On
College campuses in the last couple of years. We'll get
to that sound bite. More conversation with doctor Chloe Carmichael.
She again is a psychologist, she's a thinker, and she
has a book. Can I say that why free speech
(12:52):
matters and how to use it fearlessly. There's a lot
of countries around the world, folks, where free speech doesn't exist.
What we're doing here tonight would not be allowed in
a lot of countries around the world. And let us
not not fully appreciate how fortunate we are to live
in this society and in this country at this time.
(13:12):
Back with doctor Chloe Carmichael, if you like to join
the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty
six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. Her book
is available and is out. I think would be a
great holiday President, Christmas, Honukah, whatever you celebrate, Festivus, it
doesn't matter to or even to bring us a Thanksgiving
(13:33):
Day gift that you that you might give to someone
on the other side of the political spectrum and see
if they have the courage to one accept it and
to read the book. Back on Nightside right after.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
This, you're on Night Side with Dan ray On. You Bzy,
Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
My guest is doctor Chloe Carmichael. Doctor Carmichael, I have
to apologize my regular producer is off tonight. Uh and
I put my covering producer in a buying because he
does and have access to this video. But it was
a video taken in twenty ten. It was widely circulated.
It showed a woman who identified herself as a teacher
in the Los Angeles public school system, and she just
(14:13):
went on about how that the problem with this country,
or that the Jews run the banks and all this garbage,
blood libels, and that we got to get the Jews
out of America. And she was at the height of
the Occupy Wall Street, so there was that real scent
of anti Semitism, virulent anti semitism. I don't I can't
(14:35):
play it for you, but my audience has played it.
I don't know if you ever heard that SoundBite, but
it's a frightening SoundBite that anybody would express that opinion
as openly and as fearlessly as she did. But I
was appreciative that she would do it because it sort
(14:56):
of showed what sort of a key answer has infected
as early as twenty ten, the progressive movement in this country.
So free speech has a benefit to show us people.
When someone says something and they show you who they are,
you should believe them exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
And that's why you know, this idea about you know,
creating safe spaces that are basically where you're not allowed
to say what you really think, that have these super
strict speech codes, I just don't see how that really
makes everybody safe, right if we're just it means that
you don't know what anybody really thinks. I mean, we
actually feel much safer, as you said, when you know,
(15:38):
bad guys can just come out and tell you who
they are. I think it's better for everybody that way.
And plus then we you know, have the chance to
hopefully dialogue with them and you know, maybe even persuade them.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, some of these folks, they're very unpersuadable. But I
do think it's important to almost, you know, make make
them show their faces, make them show their ideas to
the world, and realize that a lot of the ideas
that led the world down bad paths are resurrected periodically.
(16:11):
I mean a lot of the things that the Hitlers
of the world would believe in or that the Paul
Pots of the world would believe in. Uh, those germs
of ideas, they still exist. Let me let me get
a quick call here and get the call start of
going to go to Justin. Yeah, Justin and Marlborough. Justin,
you're on with doctor Chloe Carmichael. Go right ahead, Justin.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
Hi, doctor Carmichael and Dan, thanks for taking my call.
What was a movie a few years ago about a
man in a black man infiltrating the ku klutz Klan.
I don't know if it's the same person.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I think it very well. Maybe his name was Darryl Davis.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
Yeah, it was a pretty cool movie, and I wanted
to tell you.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And by the way, he didn't. If I could just
correct one thing here, and I think doctor Carmichael will
agree with me. He didn't infiltrate the two Clucks claim.
What he did was he contacted the leaders and set
up interviews, and when they met him for the interview
at the pre designed location, they would be a little
shocked that it was a black guy that wanted to
(17:14):
interview him. And he explained very forthrightly that he wanted
to attend some of their rallies and find out why
they felt less of him than they did of people
of their own race, and he actually got and doctor Carmichael,
you can correct me. I believe he's very proud of
the fact that he had like about robes, the clean
robes from about fifty Klean leaders who had decided to
(17:38):
because they got to know Darryl Davis, they got to
design to they resigned from the clan. As a matter
of fact, I actually saw him do a TED talk
in which he had sort of a cabinet on stage
with him, and of course you're figuring what's in the cabinet,
and he built to the end of the Ted talk,
which you know are always about twelve to fourteen minutes,
and he said, and here are some of the robes
(18:01):
that have been surrendered, uh and given to me by
former leaders of the Ku Klux Klan who yes, in
time remind go ahead, doctor Carmichael.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yes, it's so powerful. And it's funny he was on
your show because I do mention him in my book
as an example of how even the worst of ideas
can actually, you know, be healed more so through dialogue,
you know, than by just pushing people's ideas underground. So
I've got to it's wonderful. I got to get his book.
(18:35):
I didn't know he had one.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, yeah, I had it in front of me.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I'm going to contact him too and tell me he's
in my book.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, it's called The Clean Whisper. Is the name of
his book. Justin go ahead. You had a question for
doctor Carmichael or a comment?
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Yeah, a kind of a comment question. I just wanted
to reflect on an experience I had. I was in
college and we got to write. We were asked to
write our opinions on the professor getting tenure. Fifty of
us wrote our opinions. I was the only one to
(19:13):
write negative. Now, I was the only one to sign
my name, and the economic chairman told my advisor he
was going to take my name off it. And she
she said, don't you dare He takes pride in his work,
and if she has a problem with that, you shouldn't
have asked him. Now that was my sentiment, and I
(19:33):
don't like that.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Did that honesty cost you in terms of your final
grade from your your professor?
Speaker 5 (19:40):
And that was the least of my worries I was.
They asked me a question, I answered it. They have
a problem, Shame on the person asking the question.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
To Carmichael's book Justin, because the title is can I
say that question mark Why Free Speech Matters and and
how to Use it Fearlessly? So you did use it fearlessly.
I've I hope to.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Put you on the cover Justin.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
Thank you. Oh, I'm so I'm so happy. My professor,
my advisor stood up for me. And lastly, the professor
Baconomic Tamman said, she instantly guess it was you. I said,
that's why she's made advise us. He's on the ball.
Speaker 6 (20:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
That was one of my favorite memories of college. And
I look forward to your book, doctor Carmichael.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
You can go to a Free Speech Today dot com
and get it there if you like. It's everywhere books
are sold.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Great.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Thank you, Thanks j justin free free Speech Today dot com.
We've got to take a break news at the bottom
of the hour. I'll be back with doctor Chloe Carmichael,
her book, Can I Say That, Why Free Speech Matters
and How to Use It Fearlessly? Six one, seven, two, five,
four ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten
thirty Feel free to ask a question. I would hope
(20:59):
some of you I'll there would be very encouraged to
think that someone like doctor Carmichael has written a book
like this because I think that just like in physics,
every action does an equal reaction, and I think that
we are now beginning to see that there is a
reaction in the best sense of the word, to some
(21:20):
of the places that we have gone as a society
in terms of suppressing free speech and free thought in
the last five or so years. We'll be back on
Nightside with doctor Chloe Carmichael and your phone calls right
after this.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
It's Nightside with Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
My guest is doctor Chloe Chamberlain. She is a psychologist,
a clinical psychologist, also a USA Today best selling author
other books. This is not your first book, but this
book can I say that why free speech matters and
how to use it fearlessly. We're going to go to
(22:01):
phone calls. Continue with phone calls, but I want to
also ask some questions as we go along. Let me
let me again remind people if they want to join
the conversation six one seven, two, five, four ten thirty
or six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. Let
me go to Dave in Wyoming, who sometimes goes off
(22:22):
topic with me a little bit. Dave, welcome, let's stay
on topic tonight.
Speaker 7 (22:26):
Okay, hey guys, Yeah, I think it's kind of telling that, uh,
you know, a free speech discussion even you guys, are
you know, saying that there are certain words people shouldn't
ever be able to say.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
And I think you've fallen into that spot.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
That's well, that's my opinion. I don't think that's doctor
Carmichael's opinion. I think she's She's very clearly distinguished my
view from hers on that. But go ahead.
Speaker 8 (22:54):
Yeah, It's like George Orwell once said, quote, even a
single taboo.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
Can have an all around crippling a fact upon.
Speaker 8 (23:00):
The mind, because there is always the danger that any
thought which is freely followed up may lead to the
forbidden thought.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Yeah, great point.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
We understand what you're saying, Dave. What's your question for
doctor Carmichael?
Speaker 8 (23:15):
Well, do you think do you agree with me that
it's better to draw the line. We must draw the
line between speech and action and not between good speech
and bad speech.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yeah, definitely, I do agree with you there. At the
same time, I'm just saying that I agree with the
idea that we have social norms and social taboos. But
that's completely different than the government making laws about speech.
You know, if somebody wants to, you know, go say
all kinds of things like I said, they can say,
(23:46):
you know, women are stupid, you know, B words and
broads and everything else. And even for me as a woman,
I don't want to take away their legal right to
say it. But I just also might choose not to
invite them to my dinner party. So we have freedom
of speech, but we also have freedom of association.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah, and that's and that is my point. You stated
it better than I. Uh, and that is I just
don't want to associate. If there are people who for
some reason want to engage in blood libels against Jewish people,
use the N word regarding black people, I have no
interest in their companionship. I have no interest in a
(24:23):
conversation with them. But but they can they can write
whatever they want. They can'terface public property. There's all sorts
of ways in which they can express themselves. I used
to say to my children, Dave and doctor Carmichael, use
your big words. And I would say that also to
(24:46):
you know, to anyone who I would know who would
engage in conversation. I would assume, Dave you you don't
associate with people who who use the N word frequently,
or do you?
Speaker 8 (24:59):
I tend not to. It's been driven underground, so it's
kind of hard to know. It's kind of hard to
know who the real races are because it's so driven underground.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Well, I think that if you have somebody who's vocabulary
is so limited that they have to use the N
word repeatedly, I think you can probably figure out what
category you want to put them in. So is there
another question you have for doctor Carmichael?
Speaker 8 (25:22):
Nothing to add but good topic.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Thank you very much, appreciate much. That was my best
call with Dave from Wyoming in some time. Thanks Dave,
have a good weekend out there. That's that worked out fine.
So I want to ask you you have you have
your undergraduate degree from Columbia. You have taught at universities
(25:52):
as when I was much younger, Uh, it was the
left on college campus that was trying to champion free speech.
Now that the left is running many colleges, not all.
There are some great college presidents around this country. I
think of Daniel Didemeyer and Vanderbilt as one of the
(26:16):
pre eminent ones on free speech. Why is it that
college faculty are so overwhelmingly particular, and I'm not talking
about faculty in math and physics or biology, but in
the liberal arts, Yeah, are so stratified and are so
(26:39):
similar in terms of mindset.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah. Well, I think it's a compounding problem, and I
think that we're, you know, kind of past a certain
tipping point with it. So, for example, in many psychology
departments it's not uncommon to have a one hundred percent
liberal leaning faculty, or even in New England that faculty
ratio liberal to conservative is literally twenty eight to one.
(27:05):
And the thing is, you know, you mentioned this a
couple times as well, Dan, when it comes to, you know,
a social hostility of just excluding other viewpoints, which I
think once the faculty reaches a certain ratio, they just
won't let, you know, people who think differently in And
there's an interesting thing I describe in the book. It's
(27:26):
called the five d's. The five d's are things that
people who identify as liberal by their own self report
are more likely to do to conservatives over political differences
than conservatives to liberals. And the five d's are to
defriend on Facebook to drop contact in real life or
(27:48):
distance contact in real life, to decline to date, or
to disinvite a speaker. And the liberal people who endorse
doing that, in their minds, they believe that what they
are doing is virtuous in their minds. You know, we
talked about you know, Hitler and Jews. In their minds,
they think it seems practically everybody is Hitler, right, And
(28:13):
then at the same time, as you said, it's kind
of ironic, there's this streak of anti Semitism. But they're
very quick, by their own self report to drop deferent distance,
decline to date, or disinvite a speaker over political differences.
And so I think that does contribute to the echo
chamber that you get, say at a university where you
(28:35):
have a bunch of liberal leaning people that just simply
stop admitting conservatives, whether as students or as faculty.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Well, I think the problem is faculty because obviously the
faculty one have to gain some status and then eventually
they see pig your status. So yo, if if you
do not fall in line with the group, think the
chances of you achieving that tenured status, which all fact
(29:06):
well many faculty desire. Maybe there are some who don't
want to be tenured. But that is a comfort level
that faculty members enjoy that does not enjoyed a lot
of other professions. I don't have a tenured status as
a talk show host. I function from contract to contract.
But that's all well and good. I'm just saying is
(29:28):
that if you know the people who are running the
faculty have a point of view, maybe you tend to
either intentionally or unintentionally mirror that point.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Of view totally. And you just said an important word, Dan,
which is group think. And it's the natural result when
you do have speech codes where people are doing suppression
and repression going into denial, it does lead exactly to
that group think. Dynamic and Irving Yannis, who's this psych
(30:00):
cologists who coined the term groupthink, he talked about eight
conditions that you know feed into groupthink. I won't go
through all eight of them, but one of them is
the illusion of unanimity. And so when people stay silent
because they think they're the only one that realizes the
emperor has no clothes, then everybody else thinks that they're
(30:21):
the only one, and so people stay silent. And the
more that you have a group of people where everybody's
intelligent and they just seem to all be saying, you know,
the sky is pink or whatever. People start doubting themselves,
and then the group starts proceeding as if this is
the actual reality because nobody's actually challenging what's obviously wrong
(30:45):
right in front of them, because of all that suppression
and repression and denial through those you know, lack of
free speech.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, and I think that that is a pretty good
analysis of of what's going on in a lot of
the colleges. And I think it's self perpetuating, and I'm
concerned that. And I know that the Trump administration has
been criticized for trying to be intrusive on particularly some
of the Ivy League colleges. But when I think back
(31:18):
to October sixth of just now, a little over a
couple of years ago, that horrific weekend in Israel, and
I think about there was this professor at I believe
it was Columbia how used the word exhilarated. He actually
looked at the camera and said that he was exhilarated
by what Hamas had done. And I thought to myself,
(31:38):
how could you possibly ever come to the point of
view as a college professor, that this event, this horrific massacre,
which has echoes of a very bad time about seventy
five or so, more than eighty years ago. How can
you can use the word exhilarated? But anyway, let's pause.
(32:00):
I got to take one more break and we get back.
We'll get to another caller two six, one, seven thirty.
Speaker 6 (32:06):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
The book is that has been written that we're talking
about is written by doctor Chloe Carmichael and essentially argues
that free speech matters. It certainly does. We'll be back
on night Side right after this.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
It's Night Side with Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
My guess is, doctor Chloe Carmichael, can I say that
why free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly?
Jack and Newton is next. Jack, We're a little tight
on time.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Go right ahead, Yeah, how do you do it? Jack?
Speaker 6 (32:37):
Porter? Well, what is the reason why the universities are
very liberal, at least the elite universities like the one
I'm at at Harvard is that they have many Jewish
people as professors. And if you read the famous book
by Norman pod Horatz Why by a Jewish liberals, it
goes back to their you know, identification with the underdog,
(32:58):
et cetera. In fact, the famous phrase that Jewish people
live like Episcopalians, but they vote like Puerto Ricans, or
as we vote against our class interests because we care
about the underdog.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Well, I also think Jack, and I think you'd agree
with me that twenty years ago the Jewish voters were
much more of a democratic block than they are today.
I think the recent recent polls that I have seen,
and particularly Donald Trump has received probably more support amongst
Jewish voters than many of the Republican candidates in recent
(33:31):
presidential elections.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
Yeah, but no more than thirty percent. The Jews will
always be liberal, to always be Democrats, I mean, they
make Mike inroads. Of course, they have to be tolerant
of other points of view. But the universities, at least
the elite universities, are always going to be liberal, you know,
left liberals. They will be anhing you can do about it.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Jack, I don't know if you consider yourself a liberal.
I know you pretty well.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Well.
Speaker 6 (33:58):
I'm I've left liberal, you left.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Of liberal, Okay. Well, the fact that you're saying it
that way is interesting because I know I've talked to
you in other nights when you had positions that were
not left of liberal. But that's fine. I don't necessarily
think that universities will always be liberal, and I think
(34:21):
that there are some universities. I saw that Conda Lisa
Rice spoke yesterday at Brown University. I'm stunned that Condy
Rice was allowed to even walk onto the campus at
Brown University, which you know, makes Harvard Harvard look like,
you know, like a right wing passion.
Speaker 6 (34:44):
At Kennedy School invites under the late Citie Warren, for example,
all kinds of conservative politicians that.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
That's a graduate, that's a graduate program. Hold on, hold on, Jack,
the guest would like to add ask you a question.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Go ahead, Thank you, Jack. I actually had a question
for you. I gather that you're saying that you are
a Jewish person and you identify, as you said, left
of liberal. So I noticed that thirty percent of Jews
in New York City voted for Mom Donnie as mayor,
and as a former New Yorker myself, I have to
(35:22):
say I was a little surprised by that. But I mean,
does that surprise you. I'm just curious.
Speaker 6 (35:28):
I'll explain it.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
You don't have to explain it, Jack, because the main gap, Jack, younger,
the younger Jews are voting for Mom Donnie.
Speaker 6 (35:39):
The older Jewish voted for the big generational gap.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
True, that's true.
Speaker 6 (35:46):
Yeah, that's the that's the reason.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Thank you, Jack.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Okay, okay, Jack, appreciate you call. We'll talk again. Thank
you very much. Let me go to Joyce and Bill record. Joyce,
you went next town Knightsiger right ahead, by the way.
I just I just looked it up, if I could
excuse me, Joyce, Jack is incorrect. In the twenty twenty
four election, approximately not thirty percent, thirty five percent of
(36:12):
Jewish voters supported Donald Trump, making it the highest percentage
for Republicans Sataday since the nineteen eighties. This significance. Yeah,
so that's the actual figure. Go right ahead, Joyce.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
Well that's a sad statistics. But no, I just want
to make sure that she gets like on Jimmy Kimmel
or Steve Colbert because the kids, the college kids will
listen to that. And when you go to college, that's
when you get your voice, that's when you get to
do things. So I'm hoping she gets out there, and
(36:49):
you know, I wish I had connections, but I don't.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Thanks Joey if I appreciate that, Thank you for your
vote of confidence.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
What you might be interested in doing, Joyce, in all
honesty is I think you'd enjoyed the book. Can I
say that why free speech matters and how to use
it fearlessly? Oh, Joyce? Did we lose Joyce here? I
think Joyce was saying she intends to buy the book.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Well, I hope, so thanks Dan for for the shout
out there on the book. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Did we lose Joyce there? Yeah? We did. Unfortunately, sometimes
you lose folks. It's it's interesting. I run a talk
show here in which I encourage all points of view
yah to come on this program, and I do it
out of self interest. To be honest with you, I'm
not smarter than necessarily other people. So I hope that
(37:45):
more and more people. I want to make my show
as big as possible, and I want people to feel
comfortable here. And the only thing I ask is a
civil conversation. If somebody calls up and they can't engage
in a conversation and they're consistently interruptive, the technique that
I used doctor Carmichael, As I say look, you don't
(38:05):
want a conversation, I'll give you thirty seconds ago, and
in most cases they can't put a sentence together and
then it's a quick good night. But I have a
lot of listeners on this show who disagree with me,
and a great callers, and you were always welcome here,
(38:26):
and please keep in touch. I'd love to have you back.
I think that you are a breath of fresh air
in this book. Can I say that why free speech
matters and how to use it fearlessly? If I was
a professor at Harvard, I would be assigning this book
to every incoming student at Harvard because I think.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
Well, thank you so much, Dan, I really appreciate that.
You know, Columbia University did just have me on to
speak about it.
Speaker 7 (38:53):
Actually, who did that?
Speaker 3 (38:56):
Columbia University. They just had me on to do a
little webinar about this book. So I think they are
starting to open up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well. I think Columbia is also a CBS just hired
Barry weissas department I was frustrated tonight watching ABC News,
for example, which I watch every night. That's my network
news of choice. Even as a former CBS television reporter,
for many years. They do great jobs on factual stories.
(39:29):
The story tonight that most disappointed me was they talked
about how Chuck Schumer has tried to open up the
government by offering a compromise to the Republicans, and there
was no context, no context given that the Democrats have
voted uniformly in the Senate to keep the government closed
and the Republicans have been the ones open to voting
to open up the government. And if you were an
(39:51):
average person looking at that, you'd say, isn't that great
Chuck Schumer wants to open up the government. It was
a disgraceful exercise eyes of lack of journalism for ABC
World News tonight.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
So that does sound misleading?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Oh, totally totally, doctor Carmichael, Thank you so much for
your time. I really enjoyed our conversation and I'd love to.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Do it here.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Thank you so much. Thanks again, and people can go
to free Speech Today dot com if they want to
do more and connect with me on social media or
anything else, Dan, So thanks again for having me.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
My pleasure anytime, Doctor Chloe Carmichael, can I say that
why free speech matter, said how to use it fearlessly?
We'll talk again thanks very much, doctor Carmichael. Well we
come back, we go to the twentieth hour, and the
question of the night is going to be pretty simple.
The question of the night is going to be I
don't care how old you are, where do you want
to retire? In why it's a challenging question. I want
(40:46):
you to think about it and light up the phone lines.
Coming back on nightside
With Dan Ray WBS Costs Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Thanks very much, Al, We're going to move into the
ten o'clock hour. Earlier this week. I had a guest
in the eight o'clock hours actually on election night, November fourth,
doctor Chloe Carmichael. And I really enjoyed my conversation with
doctor Carmichael that night, so I've asked her to come
back tonight. She is she is a real advocate of
(00:31):
She's a First of all, she's a clinical psychologist, okay,
and so she deals with people and where their mind
is that Her new book is can I say that
why free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly?
The problem is that in recent years people have been
have been discouraged from speaking fearlessly. And I think doctor Carmichael,
(00:58):
you and I are pretty much on the same page
on this issue. Welcome to Night Side. How are you.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Thanks, It's great to be back with you, Dan. Yeah.
I think we're kindred spirits on the free speech issue.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, And I also think that politically we're probably pretty close.
What troubles me is that we have reached a point
in our society, both within society but within our own
families where people feel inhibited from even expressing their opinion
(01:34):
about certain subjects. And I'm not a psychologist, you're a psychologist,
but that cannot be healthy psychologically to be in a situation,
particularly with family members who you know that a conversation
about subject A, B, C, or D you just avoid it.
(01:55):
How did we ever get to that point?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yeah, I mean that's so many, so many good points
and questions in their DAN. I mean, it's interesting. Actually,
eighty four percent of Americans do feel like concern about
cancel culture. So I think you're absolutely right that a
lot of people feel afraid to express an opinion. And
absolutely you're connecting that with the fact that it even
(02:20):
comes down to breaking up families. Sometimes there's this really
disturbing trend of you know, going no contact where oftentimes
younger people will refuse to talk at all, you know,
to their parents or their grandparents. I've talked to grandparents
that are not allowed to see their very young grandchildren
(02:41):
even And this is just all over things like you know,
who did you vote for or you know, how do
you feel about transgender issues? I mean, things that you
can have disagreements about, but I don't think it should
have to come you know, down to this disown your
family thing. And then you also asked about how we
(03:02):
got here, So I mean, there's so much to unpack yet.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, no, I understand. That's why why I asked that question. Yeah,
before we go to there, let me throw another issue
out because I want to make sure that the audience
understands I'm a free speech guy just like you are.
But I also understand that there is language that was
(03:25):
used by prior generations and sometimes by the previous generation,
which is no longer acceptable under any circumstances. And you may,
I assume you will agree with me that you know
language that you would hear someone utilize, you know, sort
(03:49):
of what I would call the Archie Bunker attitude language. Now,
that was written by Norman Lear, and it was intended
to be a satire and it was a very effective
of satire. But you know, you know, when you when
you see people marching in Virginia, in Charlottesville, Virginia with
(04:10):
torches and we will not be replaced, and all of
that what I consider to be garbage. I can't even
begin to associate with that issue. That point of view,
people who engage in blood libels, and we've seen that
at some of the Palestinian College demonstrations about Jewish people
(04:33):
and even about the government of Israel. You would, I
hope you will agree with me that there are some areas,
some lines that that we as a society understand can
should not be crossed. Are you with me? Well?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yeah, you know, I think it depends, because I'm with
you in the sense that absolutely this is you know,
vocabulary vernacular that reflects ideas that I obviously don't have,
and it's not go tabularian words that I would use.
I personally would put that kind of thing into what
we call lawful but awful speech, right.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Line.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah, so, I mean within the realm of the First Amendment.
For example, you could go around seeing women are stupid broads, right,
and I disagree with that, and that would fall into
that Archie bunker category. But I don't want to, you know,
legally rob someone. I'm not going to cut out their tongue. Interestingly,
though I share this in the book Members of the
(05:35):
KKK or Gi Hattie Recruiters. The way those people waited
to give up their beliefs is not by somebody telling
them you are not allowed to speak. The way that
they change their beliefs is actually by somebody sitting down
(05:55):
and inviting them to talk, to share their you know, beliefs,
and to unpack them. That's actually part of the power
of language is that allows us to step outside of ourselves,
hear our selves, think and analyze ourselves. So I agree
with you. Obviously that's not my kind of speech, it's
not my kind of scene.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
But when it.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Comes to outlawing speech, I think in a certain way,
you know, that's what the First Amendment is there for
to a certain degree, is to protect that lawful but
awful speech.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, I'm not in favor of outlawing speech, right, but
I am in favor and as a lawyer understand that
there are things that you know, again the classic as
you can't show fire in a theater, but more more
traditionally than I'm thinking, you know, you engage in fighting
(06:49):
words and you go up to someone on the street
and all of a sudden, you're just in that person's face.
I had a guest on oh within the last few weeks,
a black man who actually went out of his way
to make contact with members of the Ku Klux Klan
(07:10):
in the Maryland area written a book about it as
a matter of fact, and he he had some he
actually developed I don't know if I could call them friendships,
but he developed relationships with these leaders of the ku
Klux Klan just by doing exactly what you just said,
being brave enough to enter into a conversation and essentially
(07:37):
inquire of them why they they felt the way they did,
why they said the way they why did they believe
the things that they that they believed in? And he
was a really interesting guest. So that would be an
example of what you're talking about. What I'm talking about
is the people who well, I mean, look, people use
(08:01):
the N word. I mean that, you know, I want
nothing to do with anybody who who had their vocabulary
is so limited that that they're going to do that.
I think that's outside the bounds of the speech that
I want to hear. And I'm not sure if that's
what you're saying. I hope it's close to what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, I mean, so when I say that I, you know,
want free speech and that you know, I don't want
to outlaw you know, words, that doesn't either mean that
I have no boundaries and that I will lend my
ears to anybody anytime who says anything. And you know,
in fact, that's one of the things I talk about
in the book, is how to have good boundaries and
(08:46):
that we can absolutely, you know, just choose not to
participate in certain conversations. But that doesn't mean that we
have to try to cut out those people's tongues and
you know, prevent them.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
And I actually it's powerful metaphor cutting help people's tongues.
By the way, the fellow who wrote this book, his
name is Daryl Davis.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
He's my book. I talk about him.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Oh great, the clan whisper. Yeah, I mean, yeah, excellent. Well,
let me do this. I got to take a quick break.
I want to get phone calls six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty.
My guest is doctor Chloe Chamberlain. Her book is Can
I say that why free speech matters? And how to
(09:32):
use it fearlessly? And I really do want to drill
down doctor Carmichael on the intolerance of many on either side.
But intolerance seems to have infected the left side of
the street a lot more. I'm most of the conservatives
(09:53):
who I get on this program as callers are willing
to talk and argue and and have a conversation. But
there are a lot of people I think, who are
in what I would call the progressive movement. They have
figured it out and they they are not interested and
(10:14):
in any sort of a conversation. Which is and I
know that you're in the New York area, I believe,
which is what I fear about Mamdani, that he is
not He's going to try to rule New York in
a in a very iron fisted way, and he will
not have any you know, cabinet of of of rivals
(10:40):
as a ram Lincoln had in his cabinet, that they
will all be people who are just going to support
whatever crazy idea Mamdani tries to impose on the people
of New York City. Your thought on that, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
No, I totally agree with you. And I think there
is a link with progressivism. And you know, Mom himself
describes himself as a democratic socialist, and you know, it's
hard to even tell exactly I think the line between
that and you know, general socialism and communism and Marxism,
and you know, to your point, all of that stuff
(11:16):
hinges on this, you know, oppressor, oppressed, you know, mentality,
and so on some level, I think that they want
to co opt the language and just you know, create
division in that way. And you know, sometimes they can
do it under the cloak of kindness. It's kind of
a wolf in cheap's clothing type situation, you know, where
(11:38):
they're like, oh, well, we're just going to make everything
really kind and so therefore you can't say what you
really think because it's you know, quote hurtful when actually
we resolve differences so much better when we can talk
about them directly. Violence increases when dialogue ceases. So if
(11:58):
we want to create a more harmonious society, we don't
do it by telling people to shut up. We do
it by trying to encourage them to dialogue.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I totally agree with you, And as a matter of fact,
when we come back, I'm going to play from if
I go back to the Occupy Wall Street movement of
twenty ten, circle twenty ten. I have a woman who
actually is a teacher or was a teacher at some
point in the Los Angeles public school system, and she
(12:30):
was interviewed and she made some comments which to me
have epitomized much of what we have seen bloom On
College campuses in the last couple of years. We'll get
to that sound bite. More conversation with doctor Chloe Carmichael.
She again is a psychologist, she's a thinker, and she
has a book. Can I say that why free speech
(12:52):
matters and how to use it fearlessly. There's a lot
of countries around the world, folks, where free speech doesn't exist.
What we're doing here tonight would not be allowed in
a lot of countries around the world. And let us
not not fully appreciate how fortunate we are to live
in this society and in this country at this time.
(13:12):
Back with doctor Chloe Carmichael, if you like to join
the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty
six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. Her book
is available and is out. I think would be a
great holiday President, Christmas, Honukah, whatever you celebrate, Festivus, it
doesn't matter to or even to bring us a Thanksgiving
(13:33):
Day gift that you that you might give to someone
on the other side of the political spectrum and see
if they have the courage to one accept it and
to read the book. Back on Nightside right after.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
This, you're on Night Side with Dan ray On. You Bzy,
Boston's news Radio.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
My guest is doctor Chloe Carmichael. Doctor Carmichael, I have
to apologize my regular producer is off tonight. Uh and
I put my covering producer in a buying because he
does and have access to this video. But it was
a video taken in twenty ten. It was widely circulated.
It showed a woman who identified herself as a teacher
in the Los Angeles public school system, and she just
(14:13):
went on about how that the problem with this country,
or that the Jews run the banks and all this garbage,
blood libels, and that we got to get the Jews
out of America. And she was at the height of
the Occupy Wall Street, so there was that real scent
of anti Semitism, virulent anti semitism. I don't I can't
(14:35):
play it for you, but my audience has played it.
I don't know if you ever heard that SoundBite, but
it's a frightening SoundBite that anybody would express that opinion
as openly and as fearlessly as she did. But I
was appreciative that she would do it because it sort
(14:56):
of showed what sort of a key answer has infected
as early as twenty ten, the progressive movement in this country.
So free speech has a benefit to show us people.
When someone says something and they show you who they are,
you should believe them exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
And that's why you know, this idea about you know,
creating safe spaces that are basically where you're not allowed
to say what you really think, that have these super
strict speech codes, I just don't see how that really
makes everybody safe, right if we're just it means that
you don't know what anybody really thinks. I mean, we
actually feel much safer, as you said, when you know,
(15:38):
bad guys can just come out and tell you who
they are. I think it's better for everybody that way.
And plus then we you know, have the chance to
hopefully dialogue with them and you know, maybe even persuade them.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, some of these folks, they're very unpersuadable. But I
do think it's important to almost, you know, make make
them show their faces, make them show their ideas to
the world, and realize that a lot of the ideas
that led the world down bad paths are resurrected periodically.
(16:11):
I mean a lot of the things that the Hitlers
of the world would believe in or that the Paul
Pots of the world would believe in. Uh, those germs
of ideas, they still exist. Let me let me get
a quick call here and get the call start of
going to go to Justin. Yeah, Justin and Marlborough. Justin,
you're on with doctor Chloe Carmichael. Go right ahead, Justin.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
Hi, doctor Carmichael and Dan, thanks for taking my call.
What was a movie a few years ago about a
man in a black man infiltrating the ku klutz Klan.
I don't know if it's the same person.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I think it very well. Maybe his name was Darryl Davis.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
Yeah, it was a pretty cool movie, and I wanted
to tell you.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And by the way, he didn't. If I could just
correct one thing here, and I think doctor Carmichael will
agree with me. He didn't infiltrate the two Clucks claim.
What he did was he contacted the leaders and set
up interviews, and when they met him for the interview
at the pre designed location, they would be a little
shocked that it was a black guy that wanted to
(17:14):
interview him. And he explained very forthrightly that he wanted
to attend some of their rallies and find out why
they felt less of him than they did of people
of their own race, and he actually got and doctor Carmichael,
you can correct me. I believe he's very proud of
the fact that he had like about robes, the clean
robes from about fifty Klean leaders who had decided to
(17:38):
because they got to know Darryl Davis, they got to
design to they resigned from the clan. As a matter
of fact, I actually saw him do a TED talk
in which he had sort of a cabinet on stage
with him, and of course you're figuring what's in the cabinet,
and he built to the end of the Ted talk,
which you know are always about twelve to fourteen minutes,
and he said, and here are some of the robes
(18:01):
that have been surrendered, uh and given to me by
former leaders of the Ku Klux Klan who yes, in
time remind go ahead, doctor Carmichael.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yes, it's so powerful. And it's funny he was on
your show because I do mention him in my book
as an example of how even the worst of ideas
can actually, you know, be healed more so through dialogue,
you know, than by just pushing people's ideas underground. So
I've got to it's wonderful. I got to get his book.
(18:35):
I didn't know he had one.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, yeah, I had it in front of me.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I'm going to contact him too and tell me he's
in my book.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, it's called The Clean Whisper. Is the name of
his book. Justin go ahead. You had a question for
doctor Carmichael or a comment?
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Yeah, a kind of a comment question. I just wanted
to reflect on an experience I had. I was in
college and we got to write. We were asked to
write our opinions on the professor getting tenure. Fifty of
us wrote our opinions. I was the only one to
(19:13):
write negative. Now, I was the only one to sign
my name, and the economic chairman told my advisor he
was going to take my name off it. And she
she said, don't you dare He takes pride in his work,
and if she has a problem with that, you shouldn't
have asked him. Now that was my sentiment, and I
(19:33):
don't like that.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Did that honesty cost you in terms of your final
grade from your your professor?
Speaker 5 (19:40):
And that was the least of my worries I was.
They asked me a question, I answered it. They have
a problem, Shame on the person asking the question.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
To Carmichael's book Justin, because the title is can I
say that question mark Why Free Speech Matters and and
how to Use it Fearlessly? So you did use it fearlessly.
I've I hope to.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Put you on the cover Justin.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
Thank you. Oh, I'm so I'm so happy. My professor,
my advisor stood up for me. And lastly, the professor
Baconomic Tamman said, she instantly guess it was you. I said,
that's why she's made advise us. He's on the ball.
Speaker 6 (20:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
That was one of my favorite memories of college. And
I look forward to your book, doctor Carmichael.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
You can go to a Free Speech Today dot com
and get it there if you like. It's everywhere books
are sold.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Great.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Thank you, Thanks j justin free free Speech Today dot com.
We've got to take a break news at the bottom
of the hour. I'll be back with doctor Chloe Carmichael,
her book, Can I Say That, Why Free Speech Matters
and How to Use It Fearlessly? Six one, seven, two, five,
four ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten
thirty Feel free to ask a question. I would hope
(20:59):
some of you I'll there would be very encouraged to
think that someone like doctor Carmichael has written a book
like this because I think that just like in physics,
every action does an equal reaction, and I think that
we are now beginning to see that there is a
reaction in the best sense of the word, to some
(21:20):
of the places that we have gone as a society
in terms of suppressing free speech and free thought in
the last five or so years. We'll be back on
Nightside with doctor Chloe Carmichael and your phone calls right
after this.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
It's Nightside with Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
My guest is doctor Chloe Chamberlain. She is a psychologist,
a clinical psychologist, also a USA Today best selling author
other books. This is not your first book, but this
book can I say that why free speech matters and
how to use it fearlessly. We're going to go to
(22:01):
phone calls. Continue with phone calls, but I want to
also ask some questions as we go along. Let me
let me again remind people if they want to join
the conversation six one seven, two, five, four ten thirty
or six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. Let
me go to Dave in Wyoming, who sometimes goes off
(22:22):
topic with me a little bit. Dave, welcome, let's stay
on topic tonight.
Speaker 7 (22:26):
Okay, hey guys, Yeah, I think it's kind of telling that, uh,
you know, a free speech discussion even you guys, are
you know, saying that there are certain words people shouldn't
ever be able to say.
Speaker 5 (22:40):
And I think you've fallen into that spot.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
That's well, that's my opinion. I don't think that's doctor
Carmichael's opinion. I think she's She's very clearly distinguished my
view from hers on that. But go ahead.
Speaker 8 (22:54):
Yeah, It's like George Orwell once said, quote, even a
single taboo.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
Can have an all around crippling a fact upon.
Speaker 8 (23:00):
The mind, because there is always the danger that any
thought which is freely followed up may lead to the
forbidden thought.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Yeah, great point.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
We understand what you're saying, Dave. What's your question for
doctor Carmichael?
Speaker 8 (23:15):
Well, do you think do you agree with me that
it's better to draw the line. We must draw the
line between speech and action and not between good speech
and bad speech.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yeah, definitely, I do agree with you there. At the
same time, I'm just saying that I agree with the
idea that we have social norms and social taboos. But
that's completely different than the government making laws about speech.
You know, if somebody wants to, you know, go say
all kinds of things like I said, they can say,
(23:46):
you know, women are stupid, you know, B words and
broads and everything else. And even for me as a woman,
I don't want to take away their legal right to
say it. But I just also might choose not to
invite them to my dinner party. So we have freedom
of speech, but we also have freedom of association.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah, and that's and that is my point. You stated
it better than I. Uh, and that is I just
don't want to associate. If there are people who for
some reason want to engage in blood libels against Jewish people,
use the N word regarding black people, I have no
interest in their companionship. I have no interest in a
(24:23):
conversation with them. But but they can they can write
whatever they want. They can'terface public property. There's all sorts
of ways in which they can express themselves. I used
to say to my children, Dave and doctor Carmichael, use
your big words. And I would say that also to
(24:46):
you know, to anyone who I would know who would
engage in conversation. I would assume, Dave you you don't
associate with people who who use the N word frequently,
or do you?
Speaker 8 (24:59):
I tend not to. It's been driven underground, so it's
kind of hard to know. It's kind of hard to
know who the real races are because it's so driven underground.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Well, I think that if you have somebody who's vocabulary
is so limited that they have to use the N
word repeatedly, I think you can probably figure out what
category you want to put them in. So is there
another question you have for doctor Carmichael?
Speaker 8 (25:22):
Nothing to add but good topic.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Thank you very much, appreciate much. That was my best
call with Dave from Wyoming in some time. Thanks Dave,
have a good weekend out there. That's that worked out fine.
So I want to ask you you have you have
your undergraduate degree from Columbia. You have taught at universities
(25:52):
as when I was much younger, Uh, it was the
left on college campus that was trying to champion free speech.
Now that the left is running many colleges, not all.
There are some great college presidents around this country. I
think of Daniel Didemeyer and Vanderbilt as one of the
(26:16):
pre eminent ones on free speech. Why is it that
college faculty are so overwhelmingly particular, and I'm not talking
about faculty in math and physics or biology, but in
the liberal arts, Yeah, are so stratified and are so
(26:39):
similar in terms of mindset.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah. Well, I think it's a compounding problem, and I
think that we're, you know, kind of past a certain
tipping point with it. So, for example, in many psychology
departments it's not uncommon to have a one hundred percent
liberal leaning faculty, or even in New England that faculty
ratio liberal to conservative is literally twenty eight to one.
(27:05):
And the thing is, you know, you mentioned this a
couple times as well, Dan, when it comes to, you know,
a social hostility of just excluding other viewpoints, which I
think once the faculty reaches a certain ratio, they just
won't let, you know, people who think differently in And
there's an interesting thing I describe in the book. It's
(27:26):
called the five d's. The five d's are things that
people who identify as liberal by their own self report
are more likely to do to conservatives over political differences
than conservatives to liberals. And the five d's are to
defriend on Facebook to drop contact in real life or
(27:48):
distance contact in real life, to decline to date, or
to disinvite a speaker. And the liberal people who endorse
doing that, in their minds, they believe that what they
are doing is virtuous in their minds. You know, we
talked about you know, Hitler and Jews. In their minds,
they think it seems practically everybody is Hitler, right, And
(28:13):
then at the same time, as you said, it's kind
of ironic, there's this streak of anti Semitism. But they're
very quick, by their own self report to drop deferent distance,
decline to date, or disinvite a speaker over political differences.
And so I think that does contribute to the echo
chamber that you get, say at a university where you
(28:35):
have a bunch of liberal leaning people that just simply
stop admitting conservatives, whether as students or as faculty.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Well, I think the problem is faculty because obviously the
faculty one have to gain some status and then eventually
they see pig your status. So yo, if if you
do not fall in line with the group, think the
chances of you achieving that tenured status, which all fact
(29:06):
well many faculty desire. Maybe there are some who don't
want to be tenured. But that is a comfort level
that faculty members enjoy that does not enjoyed a lot
of other professions. I don't have a tenured status as
a talk show host. I function from contract to contract.
But that's all well and good. I'm just saying is
(29:28):
that if you know the people who are running the
faculty have a point of view, maybe you tend to
either intentionally or unintentionally mirror that point.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Of view totally. And you just said an important word, Dan,
which is group think. And it's the natural result when
you do have speech codes where people are doing suppression
and repression going into denial, it does lead exactly to
that group think. Dynamic and Irving Yannis, who's this psych
(30:00):
cologists who coined the term groupthink, he talked about eight
conditions that you know feed into groupthink. I won't go
through all eight of them, but one of them is
the illusion of unanimity. And so when people stay silent
because they think they're the only one that realizes the
emperor has no clothes, then everybody else thinks that they're
(30:21):
the only one, and so people stay silent. And the
more that you have a group of people where everybody's
intelligent and they just seem to all be saying, you know,
the sky is pink or whatever. People start doubting themselves,
and then the group starts proceeding as if this is
the actual reality because nobody's actually challenging what's obviously wrong
(30:45):
right in front of them, because of all that suppression
and repression and denial through those you know, lack of
free speech.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, and I think that that is a pretty good
analysis of of what's going on in a lot of
the colleges. And I think it's self perpetuating, and I'm
concerned that. And I know that the Trump administration has
been criticized for trying to be intrusive on particularly some
of the Ivy League colleges. But when I think back
(31:18):
to October sixth of just now, a little over a
couple of years ago, that horrific weekend in Israel, and
I think about there was this professor at I believe
it was Columbia how used the word exhilarated. He actually
looked at the camera and said that he was exhilarated
by what Hamas had done. And I thought to myself,
(31:38):
how could you possibly ever come to the point of
view as a college professor, that this event, this horrific massacre,
which has echoes of a very bad time about seventy
five or so, more than eighty years ago. How can
you can use the word exhilarated? But anyway, let's pause.
(32:00):
I got to take one more break and we get back.
We'll get to another caller two six, one, seven thirty.
Speaker 6 (32:06):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
The book is that has been written that we're talking
about is written by doctor Chloe Carmichael and essentially argues
that free speech matters. It certainly does. We'll be back
on night Side right after this.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
It's Night Side with Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
My guess is, doctor Chloe Carmichael, can I say that
why free speech matters and how to use it fearlessly?
Jack and Newton is next. Jack, We're a little tight
on time.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Go right ahead, Yeah, how do you do it? Jack?
Speaker 6 (32:37):
Porter? Well, what is the reason why the universities are
very liberal, at least the elite universities like the one
I'm at at Harvard is that they have many Jewish
people as professors. And if you read the famous book
by Norman pod Horatz Why by a Jewish liberals, it
goes back to their you know, identification with the underdog,
(32:58):
et cetera. In fact, the famous phrase that Jewish people
live like Episcopalians, but they vote like Puerto Ricans, or
as we vote against our class interests because we care
about the underdog.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Well, I also think Jack, and I think you'd agree
with me that twenty years ago the Jewish voters were
much more of a democratic block than they are today.
I think the recent recent polls that I have seen,
and particularly Donald Trump has received probably more support amongst
Jewish voters than many of the Republican candidates in recent
(33:31):
presidential elections.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
Yeah, but no more than thirty percent. The Jews will
always be liberal, to always be Democrats, I mean, they
make Mike inroads. Of course, they have to be tolerant
of other points of view. But the universities, at least
the elite universities, are always going to be liberal, you know,
left liberals. They will be anhing you can do about it.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Jack, I don't know if you consider yourself a liberal.
I know you pretty well.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Well.
Speaker 6 (33:58):
I'm I've left liberal, you left.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Of liberal, Okay. Well, the fact that you're saying it
that way is interesting because I know I've talked to
you in other nights when you had positions that were
not left of liberal. But that's fine. I don't necessarily
think that universities will always be liberal, and I think
(34:21):
that there are some universities. I saw that Conda Lisa
Rice spoke yesterday at Brown University. I'm stunned that Condy
Rice was allowed to even walk onto the campus at
Brown University, which you know, makes Harvard Harvard look like,
you know, like a right wing passion.
Speaker 6 (34:44):
At Kennedy School invites under the late Citie Warren, for example,
all kinds of conservative politicians that.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
That's a graduate, that's a graduate program. Hold on, hold on, Jack,
the guest would like to add ask you a question.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Go ahead, Thank you, Jack. I actually had a question
for you. I gather that you're saying that you are
a Jewish person and you identify, as you said, left
of liberal. So I noticed that thirty percent of Jews
in New York City voted for Mom Donnie as mayor,
and as a former New Yorker myself, I have to
(35:22):
say I was a little surprised by that. But I mean,
does that surprise you. I'm just curious.
Speaker 6 (35:28):
I'll explain it.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
You don't have to explain it, Jack, because the main gap, Jack, younger,
the younger Jews are voting for Mom Donnie.
Speaker 6 (35:39):
The older Jewish voted for the big generational gap.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
True, that's true.
Speaker 6 (35:46):
Yeah, that's the that's the reason.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Thank you, Jack.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Okay, okay, Jack, appreciate you call. We'll talk again. Thank
you very much. Let me go to Joyce and Bill record. Joyce,
you went next town Knightsiger right ahead, by the way.
I just I just looked it up, if I could
excuse me, Joyce, Jack is incorrect. In the twenty twenty
four election, approximately not thirty percent, thirty five percent of
(36:12):
Jewish voters supported Donald Trump, making it the highest percentage
for Republicans Sataday since the nineteen eighties. This significance. Yeah,
so that's the actual figure. Go right ahead, Joyce.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
Well that's a sad statistics. But no, I just want
to make sure that she gets like on Jimmy Kimmel
or Steve Colbert because the kids, the college kids will
listen to that. And when you go to college, that's
when you get your voice, that's when you get to
do things. So I'm hoping she gets out there, and
(36:49):
you know, I wish I had connections, but I don't.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Thanks Joey if I appreciate that, Thank you for your
vote of confidence.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
What you might be interested in doing, Joyce, in all
honesty is I think you'd enjoyed the book. Can I
say that why free speech matters and how to use
it fearlessly? Oh, Joyce? Did we lose Joyce here? I
think Joyce was saying she intends to buy the book.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Well, I hope, so thanks Dan for for the shout
out there on the book. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Did we lose Joyce there? Yeah? We did. Unfortunately, sometimes
you lose folks. It's it's interesting. I run a talk
show here in which I encourage all points of view
yah to come on this program, and I do it
out of self interest. To be honest with you, I'm
not smarter than necessarily other people. So I hope that
(37:45):
more and more people. I want to make my show
as big as possible, and I want people to feel
comfortable here. And the only thing I ask is a
civil conversation. If somebody calls up and they can't engage
in a conversation and they're consistently interruptive, the technique that
I used doctor Carmichael, As I say look, you don't
(38:05):
want a conversation, I'll give you thirty seconds ago, and
in most cases they can't put a sentence together and
then it's a quick good night. But I have a
lot of listeners on this show who disagree with me,
and a great callers, and you were always welcome here,
(38:26):
and please keep in touch. I'd love to have you back.
I think that you are a breath of fresh air
in this book. Can I say that why free speech
matters and how to use it fearlessly? If I was
a professor at Harvard, I would be assigning this book
to every incoming student at Harvard because I think.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
Well, thank you so much, Dan, I really appreciate that.
You know, Columbia University did just have me on to
speak about it.
Speaker 7 (38:53):
Actually, who did that?
Speaker 3 (38:56):
Columbia University. They just had me on to do a
little webinar about this book. So I think they are
starting to open up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well. I think Columbia is also a CBS just hired
Barry weissas department I was frustrated tonight watching ABC News,
for example, which I watch every night. That's my network
news of choice. Even as a former CBS television reporter,
for many years. They do great jobs on factual stories.
(39:29):
The story tonight that most disappointed me was they talked
about how Chuck Schumer has tried to open up the
government by offering a compromise to the Republicans, and there
was no context, no context given that the Democrats have
voted uniformly in the Senate to keep the government closed
and the Republicans have been the ones open to voting
to open up the government. And if you were an
(39:51):
average person looking at that, you'd say, isn't that great
Chuck Schumer wants to open up the government. It was
a disgraceful exercise eyes of lack of journalism for ABC
World News tonight.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
So that does sound misleading?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Oh, totally totally, doctor Carmichael, Thank you so much for
your time. I really enjoyed our conversation and I'd love to.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Do it here.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Thank you so much. Thanks again, and people can go
to free Speech Today dot com if they want to
do more and connect with me on social media or
anything else, Dan, So thanks again for having me.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
My pleasure anytime, Doctor Chloe Carmichael, can I say that
why free speech matter, said how to use it fearlessly?
We'll talk again thanks very much, doctor Carmichael. Well we
come back, we go to the twentieth hour, and the
question of the night is going to be pretty simple.
The question of the night is going to be I
don't care how old you are, where do you want
to retire? In why it's a challenging question. I want
(40:46):
you to think about it and light up the phone lines.
Coming back on nightside
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