October 9, 2024 • 41 mins
CBS Morning had author Ta-Nehisi Coates on to discuss his new book regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict. Host Tony Dokoupil questioned Coates on his pro-Palestine stance, leading to a heated but respectful conversation. After the segment, controversy began to spring up from within CBS regarding this exchange. Dan discussed the situation further.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's nice eyes. I'm going you Mazy Boston's radio.
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(02:18):
We got a winner, so we can hold off on
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show is Tina the Tina Turner Musical at the Henover
Theater in Worcester on Friday, October eighteenth at eight pm,
and I hope you enjoy the show. Now, I tend
(02:41):
to move around on the morning newscasts, so I'm not
loyal to the GMA Good Morning America or CBS Evening
Morning News. I just I move around. Okay, I'll get
a little CNN, I'll get a little Fox. It's sort
of like getting up in the morning and getting out
a healthy bit of this and a bit of that.
(03:01):
So there is a controversy going on, and I want
to frame the controversy in the context of people who say, hmm,
maybe the media is biased. So what I want to
do is I want to explain the difference. This is
journalism one oh one, between news reporting and commentary. Okay,
(03:24):
so you've got to understand the difference. If you're a
news reporter, you were supposed to be straight and objective.
That's your goal. You were there simply to tell what happened,
what someone said, and that's it. Okay, if you're a commentator,
(03:45):
you have the ability, and a talk show host is
in the realm of commentator. You have the ability to
be as biased as you want. I have my biases.
I think most of you know who I am and
what I believe. That's part of my job is to
tell you how I feel about an issue. So one
(04:08):
of the things that bothers me is that when a
journalist does a good job and then that journalist is
criticized for doing a good job and criticized by his peers,
that really troubles me. That really troubles me. So what
we're doing here is we're talking about a journalist. His
(04:29):
name he's one of the three hosts of the CBS
Morning Show, Gail King, Nate burles In, former NFL player
Nate Burleson, and Tony Dacoppel. Tony Deppel is the third
person who makes up that trio of hosts. So a
week ago they were interviewing the group of them. We're
(04:53):
interviewing an author named to Hannah to He she coach
who has written a book called the message. Okay, so
what you're going to hear is coach had a pretty
strong view, and the strong view was that Israel is
(05:14):
in apartheid country, similar to South Africa, similar to the
United States in the days after the Civil War. Well,
the two an two of the three anchors night Burlson
and Gail King asked a couple of Philly playing questions.
(05:34):
But that's fine. It was up to Tony Ducopo to
kind of push back a little bit. So first of all,
we're going to play this in sequence for you, and
I may have to do it. I prefer not to
break it up. So I think what I'm going to do,
if it's okay with you guys, is we'll go to
the commercial break right now, which is a minute or
so early, and then we came back on a set
(05:54):
this up. We'll find that Dakopol I believe, actually asked
really good questions, tough questions, but really good questions of
a morning show guest. And normally the morning show guests
come on and they're talking about I've just written a
book about yoga, or I've written a book about yogurt,
or written about my favorite flavor of yogurt. And there's
(06:17):
no controversy to it. This particular author wrote a book
called The Message, and he essentially said, Hey, Israel's an
apartheid states, similar to South Africa. I don't buy that.
I don't buy that. That's my own personal bias. Okay.
He has his right to believe that, and he has
his right to write about that, which is great. But
I also believe that Tonydacoppo Dacoppol, had an opportunity and
(06:42):
a right to question him. So I'm going to play
this out and then I'm going to tell you what happened. Okay,
Dacoppol g gets called on the carpet because his colleagues
in the CBS newsroom, basically like children complained to mommy.
To the leadership of the newsroom, We'll take a break.
(07:04):
This is a fascinating story, and I want you to
react to it. If you think I'm wrong and that
Deacopo should have been called out, great, we can talk
about it. If you think I'm right, I want to
hear from miss Well. It will take me about six
minutes to set the story up for you, but I
will set it up fairly objectively, and I want your reaction.
So stay with me. This is journalism one oh one.
(07:27):
This is what if I was a college professor, I'd
be looking at cases a case study like this and
trying to talk to my class about it. So I
don't mean to talk down to you, but we're going
to learn about journalism one on one as it should
be practiced. We'll be right back on Nightside.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Now, back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I' WBZ News Radio. So let me set it up
for you here as we as we go along. So
it's about a week ago on the CBS Morning Show,
and there we're going to go first to cut thirty six,
which is the introduction of the guest by one of
the CBS co host Nate Berlson. Cut thirty six, Rob
(08:12):
or Dean. Okay, so we're having some trouble playing it.
When we get squared away here, let me know our
next day, we got it. Are we ready? I know
you're ready? Okay, okay? Cut thirty six.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Yes is the acclaimed New York Times best selling author
tanahase Coats. His new book, The Message, is a trio
of interconnected essays that examine how the stories we tell
or avoid telling can shape and even distort our reality.
In the book, Coats reflects on his emotional first trip
to Africa to visit the car senecaw Then he takes
readers to Columbia, South Carolina, where he reports on that
(08:53):
attempted banning of one of his books on race, and finally,
Coats travels to the Middle East to witness the Israeli
Hellestadian conflict firsthand. So see coaches, good morning, how you doing,
Thanks for having me, Good morning guys, Yeah, thank you
for joining us. You say that this book is written
specifically for writers, stating that the task for young writers
should be nothing less than changing the world. Why do
(09:16):
you feel like writers should bear that responsibility.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Saving the world?
Speaker 5 (09:20):
Saving saving world? Just to be really specific, writing is
how we interpret so much of everything that is around us.
The message is a political book. It are used that
much of our politics actually happens before we walk into
a voting booth, That our choices around us, That who
we believe is human, who we don't believe is human,
(09:40):
What policies we believe should be in the world, which
policies we don't actually shaped largely by writing and the
stories we tell. And so I believe that writers, and
particularly young writers, have so much to do in the politics,
and in this time when you know, obviously we have
so much conflict and there's so many quote unquote issues
to know.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So it's a political book. Okay, the outhor describes it
as a political book. Tony Diakoppo asks the next question.
It's a pretty direct question. It's a challenging question. Cut
thirty seven, Tana.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Hash I want to dive into the Israel Palestine section
of the books, the largest section of the book. And
I have to say, when I read the book, I
imagine if I took your name out of it, took
away the awards and the acclaim, took the cover off
the book, the publishing house goes away. The content of
that section would not be out of place in the
backpack of an extremist. And so then I found myself wondering,
(10:39):
why does Tanahashi Coats, who I've known for a long time,
read his work for a long time, very talented, smart guy,
leave out so much? Why leave out that Israel is
surrounded by countries that want to eliminate it. Why leave
out that Israel deals with terror groups that want to
eliminate it? Why not detail anything of the first and
the second inti fat of the cafe bombings, the bust
(11:00):
and little kids blown to bits? And is it because
you just don't believe that Israel in any condition has
a right to exist.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
So Dacopo challenges him, and this is coach response, and
there's a there's also I think a response here. There's
a little bit of exchange with this is the author coach.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
Well, I would say, the perspective that you just outlined,
there is no shortage of that perspective in American media.
That's the first thing I would say. I am most
concerned always with those who don't have a voice, with
those who don't have the ability to talk. I have
asked repeatedly in my interviews whether there is a single network,
mainstream organization in America with a Palestinian American bureau chief
(11:46):
or correspondent who actually has a voice to articulate their part.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Of the world.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
I've been a reporter for twenty years. The reporters of
those who believe more sympathetically about Israel and it's right
to exist don't have a problem getting their voice out.
But what I saw in Palestine, what I saw on
the West Bank, what I saw in Haifa in Israel,
what I saw in the South Hebron Hills. Those were
the stories that I have not heard, and those were
(12:13):
the stories that I was most occupied with. I wrote
a two hundred and sixty page book. It is not
a treatise on the entirety of the conflict between the
Palestinians and the Israelis.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Fruir enough now in cut thirty seven B to Coppo
and he exchanged ideas, it's polite, it's direct, but it's civil,
and it's polite thirty seven B.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
But if you were to read this book, you would
be left wondering, why does any of Israel exists? What
a horrific place, committing horrific acts on a daily basis.
So I think the question is central and key if
Israel has a right to exist, And if your answer
is no, then I guess the question becomes why do
the Palestinians have a white to twenty different Muslim countries.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Here is that no country in this world establishes its
ability to exists through rights. Countries establish their ability to
exist through force, as America did. And so I think
this question of rights to Israel does exist it's a fact.
The question of its right is not a question that
I would be faced with with any other country.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
But you write a book that delegitimizes the pillars of Israel.
It seems like an effort to topple the whole building
of it. So I come back to the question, and
it's what I struggle with throughout this book. What is
it that so particularly offends you about the existence of
a Jewish state that is a Jewish safe place and
not any of the other states out there?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Coach responds forcefully and puts it right out there. Basically,
it compares Israel to a de protide state Cup thirty
seven c.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
There's nothing that offends me about a Jewish state. I
am offended by the idea of states built on ethnocracy,
no matter.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Where they are.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Muslim concluded, I would.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
Not want a state where any group of people laid
down their citizens rights based on ethnicity. The country of
Israel is a state in which half the population exists
on one tier of citizenship, and everybody else that's ruled
by Israelis exists on another tier, including Palestine Israeli citizens.
The only people that exist on that first tier are
(14:16):
Israeli Jews. Why do we support that?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Why is that okay?
Speaker 5 (14:20):
I'm the child of Jim Crow. I'm the child of
people that were born into a country where that was
exactly the case of American apartheid. I walk over there,
and I walk through the occupied territories, and I walk
down the street in Hebron and a guy says to me,
I can't walk down the street unless I profess my religion.
I'm with a no, no, no, no no. This is very valuable, important,
(14:42):
extremely important. I'm working with. The person that is guiding
me is a Palestinian whose father, whose grandfather and grandmother
was born in this town. And I have more freedom
to walk than he does. He can't ride on certain roads,
he can't get water in the same way. That is
rarely citizens who live less than a mile away from him. Again,
(15:02):
why is that okay?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Dukopol picks up his question cup thirty eight.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Why is there no agency in this book for the Palestinians.
They exist in your narrative merely as victims of the Israelis,
as though they were not offered peace at any juncture,
as though they don't have a stake in this as well,
what is their role in the lack of.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
A have a very very moral compass about this, and
again perhaps it's because of my ancestry. Either apartheid is
right or it's wrong. It's really really simple. Either what
I saw was right or what's wrong. I am fascist
against the death penalty. What the person did to get
the death penalty, it really doesn't matter to me. I
don't care if they were selling a nickel bag of
(15:44):
marijuana or if they were a serial killer. I am
against the death penalty. I am against a state that
discriminates against people on the base of ethnicity. I'm against that.
There is nothing the Palestinians could do that would make
that okay for me. My book is not based on
the hyper morality the Palestinian people.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Now that this is the last sound by This is
Gail King trying to basically bring the conversation down. She
asks a decent question and then they laugh a little
bit and it ends on a friendly note. Cut thirty nine.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
Please, what's the last people in lessons?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Because many people feel it's complicated.
Speaker 6 (16:21):
You say, it's not complicated. Less than twenty seconds.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
What's your message less than twenty seconds? I want people
to read the book, and I don't make the assumption
that somebody would just read the book and have written
and have read nothing nothing about it.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Okay, you're still invited the High Holidays. I'll see you
at the shirt.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I mean advice.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
I'll do it for us.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Out of time. The message goes on sale tomorrow. Okay,
So all of a sudden this according to a New
York Times article a couple of days later, published this
Monday and updated on Tuesday, CBS executives had a newsroom
why call, in which they described that interview that you
(16:59):
just heard as falling short of the network's editorial standards
as far as I'm concerned. Dacoppel asked good questions, Coach
gave good answers. They both came at the issue from
a different perspective. No minds were changed. But I thought
it was actually good, a good interview and good television,
(17:20):
particularly in the morning, as I said, when normally they're
talking about you know, I don't know your favorite flavor yogurt.
So what happened was a bunch of this is described
now I'm reading for the New York Times. Just so
you know, I'm giving you the men parried for several
(17:40):
minutes in intense but civil manner, with mister Coates at
one point saying either apartheid is right or wrong. It's
really that simple. It mentions that mister Tappol still invited
mister Coats to join in the high holidays, and the
interview ended. So here's what happened. The interview creates a
(18:01):
social media uproar. Fans of mister coachs accused mister de
Copple a bias. He has a different point of view.
That is not bias. He has a different point of view,
with one writer of Vox call it vox for Fox
Vox Box, not Fox Vox, calling his questions hostile, combative,
(18:21):
and rude. They were direct, they weren't hostile. In my opinion,
they weren't combative, they weren't rude. It was a polite conversation.
Others took a different view, including a Washington Post reporter
who wrote that conversation had been impassion to become and
had brought rigor to the typically breezy realm of morning TV,
which is exactly what I'm saying. So Dacoppel met for
(18:43):
an hour with members of the CBS News Standards and
Practices team, and the in house Race and Culture unit,
which his visors on context, tone, and intention. The conversation
focused on too Coppel's tone of voice, phrasing and body
language during the interview. After a review of our coverage,
(19:07):
including the interview, it's clear that there are times we
have not met our editorial standards at Adrian Rourke, the
network's president of editorial and news gathering, According to a recording,
this has been addressed and it will continue to be
in the future. Mister missed Miss Rock, who started her
job in August, said I want to be clear. We
(19:30):
will still ask tough questions. We will still hold people
account all that's part of our job, but will do
so objectively and that means very plainly checking our biases
and opinions at the door. And that applies to every
single one of us. So Ducopel cannot have a bias
or an opinion on a morning chat show. We're not
talking about the CBS Evening News, or we're not talking anyway. Well.
(19:55):
Jan Crawford, who's the chief legal correspondence at CBS News,
spoke up later on the call and said she didn't
understand why mister de Coople's questions had not met editorial standards.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Quote.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
This is Crawford, who now I have great respect for.
When someone comes on our air with a one sided
account of a very complex situation, as Coats himself acknowledges
that he has, it's my understanding that as journalists we're
obligated to challenge that worldview so that our viewers can
have that access to the truth or a fuller account.
Miss Crawford said to me, that's what Tony did. Crawford
(20:28):
said she was confused as to how CBS correspondent should proceed.
What is the objective standing for the rest of us
when we're doing our own interviews, She asked Ms Rourke,
I appreciate you bringing this up. I know this is
a lot for everybody to process. She said she would
follow up with Miss Cross with Miss Crawford after the call.
(20:51):
This guy did what seemed to me to be a
very good job talking to someone who brought a point
of view. Coach has a point of view. I necessarily
don't agree or disagree with it, but that's his point
of view. So the host went into the role of
(21:11):
reporter and asked tough civil questions, but his colleagues within
CBS displayed their bias by ratting him out. Ratting him
out to the person who was there, mss Rourke, who
(21:33):
is the network's president of editorial and news gathering, that's
a lovely position to have, I would think. But I
think she should have said that the reporters. I looked
at the tape. There's nothing wrong with the tape. Jacopol
was doing a good job of asking tough, straight civil questions.
(21:53):
Coach did a fine job defending his position. He got
a lot of publicity for his book. All should be happy, No,
but you have people in the CBS newsroom who are
now out of themselves that they have a real bias,
and their bias is against Israel. And anyone who would
challenge someone who brings a bias in that is against Israel,
(22:15):
they're offended by that. They're offended. And these are so
called journalists, so called reporters and CBS News. So keep
that in your mind when you watch any of these
network newscasts. They are not as pure as Caesar's wife.
They are allowing their viewpoints on politics and on issues
(22:39):
to degrade what once were a great network news programs.
My name is Dan Ray. That's how I see it.
Haven't done this with you before. I'd love to know
if you agree or disagree. I hope you have followed
the story. I can't make it any more simple than
it than I have, and I'd love to get your reaction.
Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty, six seven, nine,
(23:01):
three one ten thirty and my right? Am I wrong here?
Should Ducopo have been criticized by his colleagues for conducting
a tough interview? Or should he sit there and just
toss softball questions as you would to someone who has
a book about yoga in the morning news, Well tell
us why is yoga so wonderful? Should if he said, well,
just tell us your opinions in the book. It seems
(23:24):
to me that you don't like Israel, and I'm not
going to challenge you on that at all. Tell us
what some of the reasons that that you see subjectively,
that that you believe and you talk about in your book.
That'll be my tough question. Is that really where they
want CBS News to sync to? I think they do.
We'll be back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
So I took a little bit of time at the
beginning of the eleven o'clock news to try to set
up a story for you, uh and again. And I've
done this as sort of a journalism question. Okay, and
you can have whatever point of view you want, but
I'd love to hear what you think. If you agree
with me, great. What it shows to me is that
(24:14):
there is a bias within CBS News, certainly within the
daytime newsroom, that people would be so upset with an interview,
a challenging interview, but an interview that people basically rat
out their colleague and say we want him to go
to some form of training here. And I think that
(24:37):
is a I think that's a canary in the coal
mine for the integrity of CBS News, which I may
have lost faith in a long time ago. Maybe you
still have faith in CBS News, but I use this
as an example. I realized that be October seventh terror
(25:01):
attack of a year ago has has certainly caused people
to think about the Middle East. And there are different
points of view in the Middle East. The guy that
wrote the book The Message, he has a point of view,
The Coppel had a point of view, and the Coppel
and he had a civil exchange. That's what TV news
should be all about, in my opinion. In my opinion,
(25:23):
maybe I'm wrong. Let's go to Gary and Wooburn, Gary
next on Nightside first this hour, Gary, thank you for
calling in.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Go right ahead, Dan, You're not gonna like this phone call.
Speaker 7 (25:31):
I'm gonna come right at you.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Okay, good, Absolutely, go ahead.
Speaker 7 (25:35):
Okay, you're putting me to sleep. FEMA is running out
of funds. That's important. You could talk about anything comical.
This is You've been doing this eighteen years. Once in
a while, you bust, and you bust. You want to
defend yourself. I consider it's very boring. I'm gonna hang up,
but I still love you.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well that's fine if you consider it boring. And if
that's fine, you have ever read to consider it boring.
I'll take the criticism. But again, uh, let's see what
other people have to say. Six one seven thirty six
one seven nine three one ten thirty. Let's go to
Allison and Portland, Maine. Welcome back, Alison, how are you hello?
Speaker 8 (26:14):
I know I've been called a long time. I was
grew to you last time I called. I shouldn't call names.
And plus I have high blood pressure. And I really
shouldn't get so worked anyway about this particular story. I don't.
I think I pretty much agree with you about it.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
You know it is.
Speaker 8 (26:29):
But I just wonder if you were if the other
way around, and it was a Jewish person being interviewed
about a thing, and then the interviewer were Middle East
tern or you know, passing or whatever, if you'd be
even raising this issue or not. That's all, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I just wondered, Yeah I would.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I'll tell you, I'll tell you why.
Speaker 8 (26:46):
Okay, Okay, all right, and just be with me here. Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
People who come on, uh into into what we would
call the morning news programs, I must admit.
Speaker 8 (26:58):
I don't watch them really.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Probably I just want to set the table, give me
a chance here so I can explain it. They come on,
they have a purpose. The guy that was there was
invited on because he's a popular writer, any writer, and
he's selling a book. If Alison wrote a book, she
wouldn't be invited on. So they had this big, big
opportunity to sell books. Okay. And if let's say that
(27:24):
person came on with a very pro Israel, however you
want to describe it, position, and there was an interviewer
who asked some tough questions and said, well, how do
you justify this? How do you justify that? That's what
I would expect to happen. I don't think that on
those morning news programs people have a right to come
(27:45):
on to sell books or try to sell books and
not be challenged. Most of that stuff in the morning
is pretty bland. I mean, it's like vanilla ice cream.
And you know, I'm here because I have a new
book on, as I said, yogurt or yogurt flavors or
yoga poses. You come on with a controversial book, expect
to be challenged, That's all. And I don't care which
(28:07):
side of the issue you're on. I don't want to
see somebody from Israel come on, who's pro ISRAELI write
a book that says we should whatever we should, you know,
do whatever we have to do, uh, and and not
be challenged. That's the whole idea what I watch TV
in the morning. You know, I'm looking. I'm looking to
hear both sides are here a challenge of some sort.
(28:29):
But there were people obviously in the newsroom who were
offended by it. If you were in the newsroom when
you heard the interview and.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
The become of it.
Speaker 8 (28:38):
I didn't hear the whole thing. No, yeah, I know,
I just but it kind of you're kind of making
the point in a way. And well, I mean, the
thing is, the more shows aren't aren't really very deep.
So I think that's maybe that's what they're bothered by.
The most. They're supposed to be pablem there's supposed to
be kind of kid gloves, and therefore somebody doing something
a bit more ancisely have bothered them for that reason,
(29:00):
you know. I mean that's part of at least I think,
you know, right, that's you know, I can't spend these shows.
You make me sick. You know. It was a little
bit I've seen of it. It's just all the endless
giggling and laughing and yeah, god, anyway.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well yeah, I mean the morning news shows, I get
it there, you know, here's the weather, here's all that stuff.
I get it. Okay. I used to be on a
morning news show, which was a news show here in Boston,
but but we weld it's a different when it's a
local news show because you're talking about what's the local news.
Is there an accident? Was there a fire last night,
(29:33):
was someone killed in a shooting? Those were the sort
of stories we did in the morning. You didn't get
into any depth about issues. The network newscast they do
get into issues. So they bring this guy in. He
wants to talk about what a horrible country Israel is
and it's an apartheid state, and one of the interviewers
challenged him, which he had every right to do in
(29:56):
my opinion, he didn't. He wasn't impolite, He wasn't really,
but he challenged it. That's that's what that's what people do.
Speaker 8 (30:03):
So I guess, but I just I just was wondering
if you could This is kind of it's on the
same subject, but you always you had things because the
anniversary of October seventh people on and stuff. But can't
you just have somebody on from Egyptian and the Egyptian
Palestinian side or Middle Eastern side talking about the forty
one thousand plus people who've been killed there and about
the utter devastation in Gaza. I mean, you just hardly
(30:24):
ever have anybody like that on. You know that I
may as you have. I've missed it.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
So yeah, no, I would be more than happy to
have someone like that on. My problem is still going
to be how did we get where we are here?
Speaker 8 (30:38):
I mean by creating Israel out of a state country
that was already there called Palestine, you know, and and
burrowing it out and driving people who been out there
for generations and generations.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Again, that gets us back to.
Speaker 8 (30:48):
The well you just said, how did we get here?
And that's how we got here, you know, and creating
the knockraw, the dispersal of all the Calidians.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Your view of history is going to be a little
different than mine, and we could you and I could
have a conversation about that. Okay, this particular author who
thinks Israel isn't a protat state, I wish you would
hear it. Would you go back and listen to this
tomorrow and night's out in demand, because I think you'd
enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
I don't.
Speaker 8 (31:14):
What do you mean, you mean the whole interview?
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Well, what I did.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
What I did was it's only in an interview. Yeah,
And as opposed to excerpting and taking part of it out, yeah,
I said to my producer, cut it up so that
you can play the entire interview. And I tried to
explain to people who the individuals were, what their position was.
I tried to do it as objectively as I could.
(31:38):
I didn't. You know, oftentimes you take someone's words out
of context, and you can twist their words by doing that.
I didn't take anything out of context. You heard the questions,
you heard the answers, you had the back and forth.
Speaker 8 (31:50):
Well, I think this particular story in itself is kind
of a tempercent of teapot. It's just a wider issue
that you're just you're very, very biased and favorite Israel
against the opinions.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
It's very very I will I will admit to you
that I am a big supporter of Israel. Okay, I
will admit that to you. I will also ask you,
since since you raised that issue, I have no idea
what your position is.
Speaker 8 (32:16):
Oh well, we've gone into the tussles before. Believe me,
I know.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
But I wanted I want to ask you this question.
If you were Israel or the Prime Minister of Israel, I.
Speaker 8 (32:29):
Would not want to be him. But anyway, well, I.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Get that, But my question is my question, Alison. I
hope you considered it a serious question. Hope you give
me a serious answer. What would have you done after
October seventh, eight years old? What what what policy would
have you followed?
Speaker 8 (32:44):
Try to get to specific terrorists and not destroy you know,
can kill thousands and thousands of civilians who had nothing
to do with including the proverbial women and children and
bombs and bomb schools and bomb now that bomb, you know,
sometime bombing refugee cancer. They're driven from one place and
then Israel bombs those camps and ambulances very came ransive
(33:05):
of ambulances from are national characters.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Madam Prime minister, Let me ask you this question. Yes, Uh,
the terrorists have have tunnels under hospitals and schools and
they're hiding.
Speaker 8 (33:18):
And if these reeli don't have any you know, special
services type people who could go in and get them,
they just have to bomb the hell out of everybody
and and uh, you know, and then see and then
see who's left over, you know, afterwards. I mean, that's
just absurd.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
That's fine, that's your position. I disagree with it. We
can have a longer conversation some night. You answered my questions.
You answered them better.
Speaker 8 (33:38):
Please if you could just try to have some guests
are on the way. I just said, you know, acknowledge
the fact that it's not just goodies and baddies who.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Wants to come on the show and discuss.
Speaker 8 (33:48):
It's just it's not white having black hat thing. It's
just not right. It's just not right historically.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
I missed what you said there. I'm sorry.
Speaker 8 (33:54):
If white hat and black hat fighting over the ranch thing,
you know, metaphorically, you know, a good guys can bad.
It's just not that simple.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
It's much more metaphorically when when terrorists metaphorically, when guys
fly planes killing innocent people in the United States.
Speaker 8 (34:10):
Now you're going to twenty two years ago. Yes, and
it's complete. We're talking about.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Black cats and what you again, you used the phrase,
I want to tell you what I think. I do
think it's white hats and black hats. And I also
think when terrorists swoop in to Kubitz's where there's no
military uh uh capability, and.
Speaker 8 (34:29):
They just did it for no reason because they were
the villains. They were the comic book villains, and the
Israelis are the comic book heroes, right, it's it's super
What they should do is, you know.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Let the battle, let them battle, let them battle the
the the Israeli military. Okay, don't swoop in they don't
have the same resources. So you don't have a problem
with what was done on October seventh. You don't have
a problem with grandparents being killed in their beds by murderers.
Speaker 8 (35:01):
You know you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
You don't have any you justify.
Speaker 8 (35:07):
You have a problem almost forty two thousand Palestinians and
they're and they're holmes destroyed.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
And I have a huge problem. I have a huge
problem with that because Hamas is basically using those people,
those women and children, and those Palestinians as human shields.
Speaker 8 (35:20):
Because they take their human shields. I mean that's just
you know, like they're they're the bad guys. They're villain
their specter, right, you know, I mean, you know, they're
the villains and you can wipe out anybody who's around
them if you get them. And and the goodies and
the white hat why.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Why don't they fight?
Speaker 8 (35:37):
Why do they fights?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
They're terrorists, okay, And they don't care about the Palestinian people.
They knew exactly what's going to happen. Allison, I love
your calls, and I love your spirit, and I'll try
to get someone on and we'll we'll discuss it as well.
And I hope you call in that night.
Speaker 8 (35:54):
All right, goodbye, thank.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
You, Allison, a great night. Okay. Maybe Gary was right,
Maybe no one wants to talk about this. Well, if
you don't want to talk about this, that's fine. I'm
going to open up the phone lines. If you want
to talk about it, fine. If you want to talk
about any other subject, feel free. We got about twelve
minutes left here. Uh six one seven six seven. I
(36:18):
run the show. I do what I think is interesting.
Gary is not my producer. He can insult and tell
me that the show is boring. That's fine. Maybe he
didn't like the hour and Louis Tiant that's fine too.
That's his choice. That's his choice. I think it's a
little insulting, but that's fine. I'm back right after this break.
(36:39):
If you'd like to join me, fine, If not, I'll
talk to you about Israel again, back on Nights Side
after this.
Speaker 8 (36:45):
Now, back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nights Side Studios.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
I'm WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Okay, you're going to try to get three in real quickly,
David and Worcester. You called late quick on time?
Speaker 6 (36:56):
Go ahead, David, Hello, mister Rae. Yes, David goright ahead,
you can even Okay, I wanted to say, you know,
you know, I was listening to the lady that you
just finished talking to, yes, and I was hoping. I
was hoping she would come up and say that she
saw the whole interview and that what you presented was
not the essence of the interview. But if, in fact
(37:19):
what you present it was the essence of the communication,
how can anybody you know question the you had mentioned
journalism one O one that was as beautiful as an
objective interview as can be.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
I agree with you. I agree with you, David, and
that's why I did it. I told my producer, don't
edit it, you know. I didn't want to run it
in six minutes, but I wanted to to cut it
up so people could digest it invites like you would
digest the meal, you know.
Speaker 6 (37:53):
And that's the duty of a journalist. You're supposed to really,
because even pay there was advocate to you know, if
you know, you'll get a side to ask the questions. So,
you know, I don't know what I just want to say.
You know that we all have our own biases and
so on, but it's a beautiful thing when actually we
are confronted openly so we can speak up the facts exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
And you know, David, I know you and I have
had calls times when we disagreed, but we've always tried
to be gentlemen about it. I have two more folks
who I want to get to. I can't tell you,
and I mean that, and I owe you sometime the
next time. Okay, thank you, David. I appreciate it. Very quickly,
I got Daryl going here, and I got Tom. Darryl.
I get to get you on quick, and then I
(38:36):
got Tom. Go ahead, Darryl.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Hey, Dan, I am for myself Israel as well. But
all this conversation and I'll kick off the line real
quick so you can get to Tom. But we would
not be talking about this if Almas did not do
something back in October seventh.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Yeah. Yeah, That's where I'm coming from. But again, all
I wanted was Allison was not able, and I'm glad
she called, and I'm glad I gave her some time.
She was not able to focus on what I was
talking about, which was the conversation between these two individuals.
Tony Coupel Cupopole, I hope I pronounced this his name correctly,
(39:16):
do copel Uh and uh. Mister Coates was good uh
and and he was criticized for it by his colleagues.
That's dangerous. That's dangerous in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
So hey, God saved American and God saved Canada.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Right, thanks, thank you, thanks terror appreciate it. Tom is
in the Philippines. Tom, I got short on time here.
I wish you called earlier, but go right ahead, my friend.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, well number one Alison needs to switch medications. Okay,
don't the call is okay, well, but anyway, but but
the point being, you had twelve hundred citizens that were
murdered by brutal terrorists and I don't care what their
cause is. And the other thing is this thirty five
(40:03):
hundred years of Jewish history in the land historically known
as Israel that later became a territory known as Palestine.
It was not a recognized country, all right. That's just
a factually correct statement.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Dam absolutely people correct.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Okay, in thee of Hamas who their religion is overwhelmingly Islam,
in the Holy Koran us.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Flat, I'm flat out of time. I'm flat out of time.
But I appreciate your calling, your support. You know that okay,
thank you, We're done for the night. Thank you Dan,
thank you Rob, thank all the listeners, all the callers,
and I'll be back tomorrow night. I will be on
Facebook in about a minute. All dogs, all cats, all
pets go to heaven. That's why Pal Charlie ray Is,
who passed fourteen years ago in February. That's why your
pets are who have passed. They loved you and you
(40:56):
love them. I do believe you'll see them again. Have
a great Thursday, everybody, Dan ray for and I so
I
It's nice eyes. I'm going you Mazy Boston's radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Beg you Dan Watkins. I told you, folks earlier this
evening we would give away two sets of two tickets
to a show that's coming to the Hanover Theater. And
I will not make you wait any longer. So let's
make it. Call number eleven since the eleven o'clock hour
the number to call. Listen carefully six one, seven, nine three,
(00:28):
one ten thirty six one seven, nine three, one ten
thirty will win eleventh caller two tickets to see Tina
the Tina Turner Musical at the Hanover Theater in Worcester
on Friday, that's a week from this Friday, October eighteenth,
at eight pm. An uplifting comeback story like no other.
(00:49):
Tina the Tina Turner Musical is the inspiring journey of
a woman who broke barriers and became the Queen of
rock and roll. Set to the pousepounding soundtrack of her
most beloved hits, This electrifying sensation will send you soaring
to the rafters. Now, Rob is simply going to tell
you your call A one, your caller two uh, and
(01:10):
if you want to call back and try again, you
just got to hit at call on number eleven. It's
as simple as that. So let's move those callers as
quickly as we can. Rob call a one caller two.
Let's get the calls coming in six one, seven, nine, three,
one ten thirty two tickets. Again, the event is on Friday,
October nineteenth, which is not this Friday, obviously that this
(01:33):
Friday is the eleventh, October eighteenth. I misspoke October eighteenth
at eight pm. So the calls are coming in and
we're getting pretty close to number eleven. But again, if
you call, if Rob says to you six or seven
or something like that, you have every right to call back.
You can call back multiple times. All you got to
do is be the magical caller number eleven at six one, seven, nine, three, one,
(01:55):
ten thirty and we'll we will get these tickets to you.
Our promotion's department is very good at that. They'll contact
you tomorrow and tell you how to get the tickets.
I'm not putting names on the air normally I have
in the past, but I'm afraid that if I put
someone's name in the air, and if they're going to
send you to the box office to pick up your tickets.
(02:18):
We got a winner, so we can hold off on
the calls. Folks. We have our second winner of the
night of the night, third winner of this week, and
that takes care of the Tina Turner tickets again. The
show is Tina the Tina Turner Musical at the Henover
Theater in Worcester on Friday, October eighteenth at eight pm,
and I hope you enjoy the show. Now, I tend
(02:41):
to move around on the morning newscasts, so I'm not
loyal to the GMA Good Morning America or CBS Evening
Morning News. I just I move around. Okay, I'll get
a little CNN, I'll get a little Fox. It's sort
of like getting up in the morning and getting out
a healthy bit of this and a bit of that.
(03:01):
So there is a controversy going on, and I want
to frame the controversy in the context of people who say, hmm,
maybe the media is biased. So what I want to
do is I want to explain the difference. This is
journalism one oh one, between news reporting and commentary. Okay,
(03:24):
so you've got to understand the difference. If you're a
news reporter, you were supposed to be straight and objective.
That's your goal. You were there simply to tell what happened,
what someone said, and that's it. Okay, if you're a commentator,
(03:45):
you have the ability, and a talk show host is
in the realm of commentator. You have the ability to
be as biased as you want. I have my biases.
I think most of you know who I am and
what I believe. That's part of my job is to
tell you how I feel about an issue. So one
(04:08):
of the things that bothers me is that when a
journalist does a good job and then that journalist is
criticized for doing a good job and criticized by his peers,
that really troubles me. That really troubles me. So what
we're doing here is we're talking about a journalist. His
(04:29):
name he's one of the three hosts of the CBS
Morning Show, Gail King, Nate burles In, former NFL player
Nate Burleson, and Tony Dacoppel. Tony Deppel is the third
person who makes up that trio of hosts. So a
week ago they were interviewing the group of them. We're
(04:53):
interviewing an author named to Hannah to He she coach
who has written a book called the message. Okay, so
what you're going to hear is coach had a pretty
strong view, and the strong view was that Israel is
(05:14):
in apartheid country, similar to South Africa, similar to the
United States in the days after the Civil War. Well,
the two an two of the three anchors night Burlson
and Gail King asked a couple of Philly playing questions.
(05:34):
But that's fine. It was up to Tony Ducopo to
kind of push back a little bit. So first of all,
we're going to play this in sequence for you, and
I may have to do it. I prefer not to
break it up. So I think what I'm going to do,
if it's okay with you guys, is we'll go to
the commercial break right now, which is a minute or
so early, and then we came back on a set
(05:54):
this up. We'll find that Dakopol I believe, actually asked
really good questions, tough questions, but really good questions of
a morning show guest. And normally the morning show guests
come on and they're talking about I've just written a
book about yoga, or I've written a book about yogurt,
or written about my favorite flavor of yogurt. And there's
(06:17):
no controversy to it. This particular author wrote a book
called The Message, and he essentially said, Hey, Israel's an
apartheid states, similar to South Africa. I don't buy that.
I don't buy that. That's my own personal bias. Okay.
He has his right to believe that, and he has
his right to write about that, which is great. But
I also believe that Tonydacoppo Dacoppol, had an opportunity and
(06:42):
a right to question him. So I'm going to play
this out and then I'm going to tell you what happened. Okay,
Dacoppol g gets called on the carpet because his colleagues
in the CBS newsroom, basically like children complained to mommy.
To the leadership of the newsroom, We'll take a break.
(07:04):
This is a fascinating story, and I want you to
react to it. If you think I'm wrong and that
Deacopo should have been called out, great, we can talk
about it. If you think I'm right, I want to
hear from miss Well. It will take me about six
minutes to set the story up for you, but I
will set it up fairly objectively, and I want your reaction.
So stay with me. This is journalism one oh one.
(07:27):
This is what if I was a college professor, I'd
be looking at cases a case study like this and
trying to talk to my class about it. So I
don't mean to talk down to you, but we're going
to learn about journalism one on one as it should
be practiced. We'll be right back on Nightside.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Now, back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nightside Studios.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I' WBZ News Radio. So let me set it up
for you here as we as we go along. So
it's about a week ago on the CBS Morning Show,
and there we're going to go first to cut thirty six,
which is the introduction of the guest by one of
the CBS co host Nate Berlson. Cut thirty six, Rob
(08:12):
or Dean. Okay, so we're having some trouble playing it.
When we get squared away here, let me know our
next day, we got it. Are we ready? I know
you're ready? Okay, okay? Cut thirty six.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Yes is the acclaimed New York Times best selling author
tanahase Coats. His new book, The Message, is a trio
of interconnected essays that examine how the stories we tell
or avoid telling can shape and even distort our reality.
In the book, Coats reflects on his emotional first trip
to Africa to visit the car senecaw Then he takes
readers to Columbia, South Carolina, where he reports on that
(08:53):
attempted banning of one of his books on race, and finally,
Coats travels to the Middle East to witness the Israeli
Hellestadian conflict firsthand. So see coaches, good morning, how you doing,
Thanks for having me, Good morning guys, Yeah, thank you
for joining us. You say that this book is written
specifically for writers, stating that the task for young writers
should be nothing less than changing the world. Why do
(09:16):
you feel like writers should bear that responsibility.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Saving the world?
Speaker 5 (09:20):
Saving saving world? Just to be really specific, writing is
how we interpret so much of everything that is around us.
The message is a political book. It are used that
much of our politics actually happens before we walk into
a voting booth, That our choices around us, That who
we believe is human, who we don't believe is human,
(09:40):
What policies we believe should be in the world, which
policies we don't actually shaped largely by writing and the
stories we tell. And so I believe that writers, and
particularly young writers, have so much to do in the politics,
and in this time when you know, obviously we have
so much conflict and there's so many quote unquote issues
to know.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So it's a political book. Okay, the outhor describes it
as a political book. Tony Diakoppo asks the next question.
It's a pretty direct question. It's a challenging question. Cut
thirty seven, Tana.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Hash I want to dive into the Israel Palestine section
of the books, the largest section of the book. And
I have to say, when I read the book, I
imagine if I took your name out of it, took
away the awards and the acclaim, took the cover off
the book, the publishing house goes away. The content of
that section would not be out of place in the
backpack of an extremist. And so then I found myself wondering,
(10:39):
why does Tanahashi Coats, who I've known for a long time,
read his work for a long time, very talented, smart guy,
leave out so much? Why leave out that Israel is
surrounded by countries that want to eliminate it. Why leave
out that Israel deals with terror groups that want to
eliminate it? Why not detail anything of the first and
the second inti fat of the cafe bombings, the bust
(11:00):
and little kids blown to bits? And is it because
you just don't believe that Israel in any condition has
a right to exist.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
So Dacopo challenges him, and this is coach response, and
there's a there's also I think a response here. There's
a little bit of exchange with this is the author coach.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
Well, I would say, the perspective that you just outlined,
there is no shortage of that perspective in American media.
That's the first thing I would say. I am most
concerned always with those who don't have a voice, with
those who don't have the ability to talk. I have
asked repeatedly in my interviews whether there is a single network,
mainstream organization in America with a Palestinian American bureau chief
(11:46):
or correspondent who actually has a voice to articulate their part.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Of the world.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
I've been a reporter for twenty years. The reporters of
those who believe more sympathetically about Israel and it's right
to exist don't have a problem getting their voice out.
But what I saw in Palestine, what I saw on
the West Bank, what I saw in Haifa in Israel,
what I saw in the South Hebron Hills. Those were
the stories that I have not heard, and those were
(12:13):
the stories that I was most occupied with. I wrote
a two hundred and sixty page book. It is not
a treatise on the entirety of the conflict between the
Palestinians and the Israelis.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Fruir enough now in cut thirty seven B to Coppo
and he exchanged ideas, it's polite, it's direct, but it's civil,
and it's polite thirty seven B.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
But if you were to read this book, you would
be left wondering, why does any of Israel exists? What
a horrific place, committing horrific acts on a daily basis.
So I think the question is central and key if
Israel has a right to exist, And if your answer
is no, then I guess the question becomes why do
the Palestinians have a white to twenty different Muslim countries.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Here is that no country in this world establishes its
ability to exists through rights. Countries establish their ability to
exist through force, as America did. And so I think
this question of rights to Israel does exist it's a fact.
The question of its right is not a question that
I would be faced with with any other country.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
But you write a book that delegitimizes the pillars of Israel.
It seems like an effort to topple the whole building
of it. So I come back to the question, and
it's what I struggle with throughout this book. What is
it that so particularly offends you about the existence of
a Jewish state that is a Jewish safe place and
not any of the other states out there?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Coach responds forcefully and puts it right out there. Basically,
it compares Israel to a de protide state Cup thirty
seven c.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
There's nothing that offends me about a Jewish state. I
am offended by the idea of states built on ethnocracy,
no matter.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Where they are.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Muslim concluded, I would.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
Not want a state where any group of people laid
down their citizens rights based on ethnicity. The country of
Israel is a state in which half the population exists
on one tier of citizenship, and everybody else that's ruled
by Israelis exists on another tier, including Palestine Israeli citizens.
The only people that exist on that first tier are
(14:16):
Israeli Jews. Why do we support that?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Why is that okay?
Speaker 5 (14:20):
I'm the child of Jim Crow. I'm the child of
people that were born into a country where that was
exactly the case of American apartheid. I walk over there,
and I walk through the occupied territories, and I walk
down the street in Hebron and a guy says to me,
I can't walk down the street unless I profess my religion.
I'm with a no, no, no, no no. This is very valuable, important,
(14:42):
extremely important. I'm working with. The person that is guiding
me is a Palestinian whose father, whose grandfather and grandmother
was born in this town. And I have more freedom
to walk than he does. He can't ride on certain roads,
he can't get water in the same way. That is
rarely citizens who live less than a mile away from him. Again,
(15:02):
why is that okay?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Dukopol picks up his question cup thirty eight.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Why is there no agency in this book for the Palestinians.
They exist in your narrative merely as victims of the Israelis,
as though they were not offered peace at any juncture,
as though they don't have a stake in this as well,
what is their role in the lack of.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
A have a very very moral compass about this, and
again perhaps it's because of my ancestry. Either apartheid is
right or it's wrong. It's really really simple. Either what
I saw was right or what's wrong. I am fascist
against the death penalty. What the person did to get
the death penalty, it really doesn't matter to me. I
don't care if they were selling a nickel bag of
(15:44):
marijuana or if they were a serial killer. I am
against the death penalty. I am against a state that
discriminates against people on the base of ethnicity. I'm against that.
There is nothing the Palestinians could do that would make
that okay for me. My book is not based on
the hyper morality the Palestinian people.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Now that this is the last sound by This is
Gail King trying to basically bring the conversation down. She
asks a decent question and then they laugh a little
bit and it ends on a friendly note. Cut thirty nine.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
Please, what's the last people in lessons?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Because many people feel it's complicated.
Speaker 6 (16:21):
You say, it's not complicated. Less than twenty seconds.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
What's your message less than twenty seconds? I want people
to read the book, and I don't make the assumption
that somebody would just read the book and have written
and have read nothing nothing about it.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Okay, you're still invited the High Holidays. I'll see you
at the shirt.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I mean advice.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
I'll do it for us.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Out of time. The message goes on sale tomorrow. Okay,
So all of a sudden this according to a New
York Times article a couple of days later, published this
Monday and updated on Tuesday, CBS executives had a newsroom
why call, in which they described that interview that you
(16:59):
just heard as falling short of the network's editorial standards
as far as I'm concerned. Dacoppel asked good questions, Coach
gave good answers. They both came at the issue from
a different perspective. No minds were changed. But I thought
it was actually good, a good interview and good television,
(17:20):
particularly in the morning, as I said, when normally they're
talking about you know, I don't know your favorite flavor yogurt.
So what happened was a bunch of this is described
now I'm reading for the New York Times. Just so
you know, I'm giving you the men parried for several
(17:40):
minutes in intense but civil manner, with mister Coates at
one point saying either apartheid is right or wrong. It's
really that simple. It mentions that mister Tappol still invited
mister Coats to join in the high holidays, and the
interview ended. So here's what happened. The interview creates a
(18:01):
social media uproar. Fans of mister coachs accused mister de
Copple a bias. He has a different point of view.
That is not bias. He has a different point of view,
with one writer of Vox call it vox for Fox
Vox Box, not Fox Vox, calling his questions hostile, combative,
(18:21):
and rude. They were direct, they weren't hostile. In my opinion,
they weren't combative, they weren't rude. It was a polite conversation.
Others took a different view, including a Washington Post reporter
who wrote that conversation had been impassion to become and
had brought rigor to the typically breezy realm of morning TV,
which is exactly what I'm saying. So Dacoppel met for
(18:43):
an hour with members of the CBS News Standards and
Practices team, and the in house Race and Culture unit,
which his visors on context, tone, and intention. The conversation
focused on too Coppel's tone of voice, phrasing and body
language during the interview. After a review of our coverage,
(19:07):
including the interview, it's clear that there are times we
have not met our editorial standards at Adrian Rourke, the
network's president of editorial and news gathering, According to a recording,
this has been addressed and it will continue to be
in the future. Mister missed Miss Rock, who started her
job in August, said I want to be clear. We
(19:30):
will still ask tough questions. We will still hold people
account all that's part of our job, but will do
so objectively and that means very plainly checking our biases
and opinions at the door. And that applies to every
single one of us. So Ducopel cannot have a bias
or an opinion on a morning chat show. We're not
talking about the CBS Evening News, or we're not talking anyway. Well.
(19:55):
Jan Crawford, who's the chief legal correspondence at CBS News,
spoke up later on the call and said she didn't
understand why mister de Coople's questions had not met editorial standards.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Quote.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
This is Crawford, who now I have great respect for.
When someone comes on our air with a one sided
account of a very complex situation, as Coats himself acknowledges
that he has, it's my understanding that as journalists we're
obligated to challenge that worldview so that our viewers can
have that access to the truth or a fuller account.
Miss Crawford said to me, that's what Tony did. Crawford
(20:28):
said she was confused as to how CBS correspondent should proceed.
What is the objective standing for the rest of us
when we're doing our own interviews, She asked Ms Rourke,
I appreciate you bringing this up. I know this is
a lot for everybody to process. She said she would
follow up with Miss Cross with Miss Crawford after the call.
(20:51):
This guy did what seemed to me to be a
very good job talking to someone who brought a point
of view. Coach has a point of view. I necessarily
don't agree or disagree with it, but that's his point
of view. So the host went into the role of
(21:11):
reporter and asked tough civil questions, but his colleagues within
CBS displayed their bias by ratting him out. Ratting him
out to the person who was there, mss Rourke, who
(21:33):
is the network's president of editorial and news gathering, that's
a lovely position to have, I would think. But I
think she should have said that the reporters. I looked
at the tape. There's nothing wrong with the tape. Jacopol
was doing a good job of asking tough, straight civil questions.
(21:53):
Coach did a fine job defending his position. He got
a lot of publicity for his book. All should be happy, No,
but you have people in the CBS newsroom who are
now out of themselves that they have a real bias,
and their bias is against Israel. And anyone who would
challenge someone who brings a bias in that is against Israel,
(22:15):
they're offended by that. They're offended. And these are so
called journalists, so called reporters and CBS News. So keep
that in your mind when you watch any of these
network newscasts. They are not as pure as Caesar's wife.
They are allowing their viewpoints on politics and on issues
(22:39):
to degrade what once were a great network news programs.
My name is Dan Ray. That's how I see it.
Haven't done this with you before. I'd love to know
if you agree or disagree. I hope you have followed
the story. I can't make it any more simple than
it than I have, and I'd love to get your reaction.
Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty, six seven, nine,
(23:01):
three one ten thirty and my right? Am I wrong here?
Should Ducopo have been criticized by his colleagues for conducting
a tough interview? Or should he sit there and just
toss softball questions as you would to someone who has
a book about yoga in the morning news, Well tell
us why is yoga so wonderful? Should if he said, well,
just tell us your opinions in the book. It seems
(23:24):
to me that you don't like Israel, and I'm not
going to challenge you on that at all. Tell us
what some of the reasons that that you see subjectively,
that that you believe and you talk about in your book.
That'll be my tough question. Is that really where they
want CBS News to sync to? I think they do.
We'll be back on Nightside.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
So I took a little bit of time at the
beginning of the eleven o'clock news to try to set
up a story for you, uh and again. And I've
done this as sort of a journalism question. Okay, and
you can have whatever point of view you want, but
I'd love to hear what you think. If you agree
with me, great. What it shows to me is that
(24:14):
there is a bias within CBS News, certainly within the
daytime newsroom, that people would be so upset with an interview,
a challenging interview, but an interview that people basically rat
out their colleague and say we want him to go
to some form of training here. And I think that
(24:37):
is a I think that's a canary in the coal
mine for the integrity of CBS News, which I may
have lost faith in a long time ago. Maybe you
still have faith in CBS News, but I use this
as an example. I realized that be October seventh terror
(25:01):
attack of a year ago has has certainly caused people
to think about the Middle East. And there are different
points of view in the Middle East. The guy that
wrote the book The Message, he has a point of view,
The Coppel had a point of view, and the Coppel
and he had a civil exchange. That's what TV news
should be all about, in my opinion. In my opinion,
(25:23):
maybe I'm wrong. Let's go to Gary and Wooburn, Gary
next on Nightside first this hour, Gary, thank you for
calling in.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Go right ahead, Dan, You're not gonna like this phone call.
Speaker 7 (25:31):
I'm gonna come right at you.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Okay, good, Absolutely, go ahead.
Speaker 7 (25:35):
Okay, you're putting me to sleep. FEMA is running out
of funds. That's important. You could talk about anything comical.
This is You've been doing this eighteen years. Once in
a while, you bust, and you bust. You want to
defend yourself. I consider it's very boring. I'm gonna hang up,
but I still love you.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well that's fine if you consider it boring. And if
that's fine, you have ever read to consider it boring.
I'll take the criticism. But again, uh, let's see what
other people have to say. Six one seven thirty six
one seven nine three one ten thirty. Let's go to
Allison and Portland, Maine. Welcome back, Alison, how are you hello?
Speaker 8 (26:14):
I know I've been called a long time. I was
grew to you last time I called. I shouldn't call names.
And plus I have high blood pressure. And I really
shouldn't get so worked anyway about this particular story. I don't.
I think I pretty much agree with you about it.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
You know it is.
Speaker 8 (26:29):
But I just wonder if you were if the other
way around, and it was a Jewish person being interviewed
about a thing, and then the interviewer were Middle East
tern or you know, passing or whatever, if you'd be
even raising this issue or not. That's all, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I just wondered, Yeah I would.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I'll tell you, I'll tell you why.
Speaker 8 (26:46):
Okay, Okay, all right, and just be with me here. Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
People who come on, uh into into what we would
call the morning news programs, I must admit.
Speaker 8 (26:58):
I don't watch them really.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Probably I just want to set the table, give me
a chance here so I can explain it. They come on,
they have a purpose. The guy that was there was
invited on because he's a popular writer, any writer, and
he's selling a book. If Alison wrote a book, she
wouldn't be invited on. So they had this big, big
opportunity to sell books. Okay. And if let's say that
(27:24):
person came on with a very pro Israel, however you
want to describe it, position, and there was an interviewer
who asked some tough questions and said, well, how do
you justify this? How do you justify that? That's what
I would expect to happen. I don't think that on
those morning news programs people have a right to come
(27:45):
on to sell books or try to sell books and
not be challenged. Most of that stuff in the morning
is pretty bland. I mean, it's like vanilla ice cream.
And you know, I'm here because I have a new
book on, as I said, yogurt or yogurt flavors or
yoga poses. You come on with a controversial book, expect
to be challenged, That's all. And I don't care which
(28:07):
side of the issue you're on. I don't want to
see somebody from Israel come on, who's pro ISRAELI write
a book that says we should whatever we should, you know,
do whatever we have to do, uh, and and not
be challenged. That's the whole idea what I watch TV
in the morning. You know, I'm looking. I'm looking to
hear both sides are here a challenge of some sort.
(28:29):
But there were people obviously in the newsroom who were
offended by it. If you were in the newsroom when
you heard the interview and.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
The become of it.
Speaker 8 (28:38):
I didn't hear the whole thing. No, yeah, I know,
I just but it kind of you're kind of making
the point in a way. And well, I mean, the
thing is, the more shows aren't aren't really very deep.
So I think that's maybe that's what they're bothered by.
The most. They're supposed to be pablem there's supposed to
be kind of kid gloves, and therefore somebody doing something
a bit more ancisely have bothered them for that reason,
(29:00):
you know. I mean that's part of at least I think,
you know, right, that's you know, I can't spend these shows.
You make me sick. You know. It was a little
bit I've seen of it. It's just all the endless
giggling and laughing and yeah, god, anyway.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well yeah, I mean the morning news shows, I get
it there, you know, here's the weather, here's all that stuff.
I get it. Okay. I used to be on a
morning news show, which was a news show here in Boston,
but but we weld it's a different when it's a
local news show because you're talking about what's the local news.
Is there an accident? Was there a fire last night,
(29:33):
was someone killed in a shooting? Those were the sort
of stories we did in the morning. You didn't get
into any depth about issues. The network newscast they do
get into issues. So they bring this guy in. He
wants to talk about what a horrible country Israel is
and it's an apartheid state, and one of the interviewers
challenged him, which he had every right to do in
(29:56):
my opinion, he didn't. He wasn't impolite, He wasn't really,
but he challenged it. That's that's what that's what people do.
Speaker 8 (30:03):
So I guess, but I just I just was wondering
if you could This is kind of it's on the
same subject, but you always you had things because the
anniversary of October seventh people on and stuff. But can't
you just have somebody on from Egyptian and the Egyptian
Palestinian side or Middle Eastern side talking about the forty
one thousand plus people who've been killed there and about
the utter devastation in Gaza. I mean, you just hardly
(30:24):
ever have anybody like that on. You know that I
may as you have. I've missed it.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
So yeah, no, I would be more than happy to
have someone like that on. My problem is still going
to be how did we get where we are here?
Speaker 8 (30:38):
I mean by creating Israel out of a state country
that was already there called Palestine, you know, and and
burrowing it out and driving people who been out there
for generations and generations.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Again, that gets us back to.
Speaker 8 (30:48):
The well you just said, how did we get here?
And that's how we got here, you know, and creating
the knockraw, the dispersal of all the Calidians.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Your view of history is going to be a little
different than mine, and we could you and I could
have a conversation about that. Okay, this particular author who
thinks Israel isn't a protat state, I wish you would
hear it. Would you go back and listen to this
tomorrow and night's out in demand, because I think you'd
enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
I don't.
Speaker 8 (31:14):
What do you mean, you mean the whole interview?
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Well, what I did.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
What I did was it's only in an interview. Yeah,
And as opposed to excerpting and taking part of it out, yeah,
I said to my producer, cut it up so that
you can play the entire interview. And I tried to
explain to people who the individuals were, what their position was.
I tried to do it as objectively as I could.
(31:38):
I didn't. You know, oftentimes you take someone's words out
of context, and you can twist their words by doing that.
I didn't take anything out of context. You heard the questions,
you heard the answers, you had the back and forth.
Speaker 8 (31:50):
Well, I think this particular story in itself is kind
of a tempercent of teapot. It's just a wider issue
that you're just you're very, very biased and favorite Israel
against the opinions.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
It's very very I will I will admit to you
that I am a big supporter of Israel. Okay, I
will admit that to you. I will also ask you,
since since you raised that issue, I have no idea
what your position is.
Speaker 8 (32:16):
Oh well, we've gone into the tussles before. Believe me,
I know.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
But I wanted I want to ask you this question.
If you were Israel or the Prime Minister of Israel, I.
Speaker 8 (32:29):
Would not want to be him. But anyway, well, I.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Get that, But my question is my question, Alison. I
hope you considered it a serious question. Hope you give
me a serious answer. What would have you done after
October seventh, eight years old? What what what policy would
have you followed?
Speaker 8 (32:44):
Try to get to specific terrorists and not destroy you know,
can kill thousands and thousands of civilians who had nothing
to do with including the proverbial women and children and
bombs and bomb schools and bomb now that bomb, you know,
sometime bombing refugee cancer. They're driven from one place and
then Israel bombs those camps and ambulances very came ransive
(33:05):
of ambulances from are national characters.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Madam Prime minister, Let me ask you this question. Yes, Uh,
the terrorists have have tunnels under hospitals and schools and
they're hiding.
Speaker 8 (33:18):
And if these reeli don't have any you know, special
services type people who could go in and get them,
they just have to bomb the hell out of everybody
and and uh, you know, and then see and then
see who's left over, you know, afterwards. I mean, that's
just absurd.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
That's fine, that's your position. I disagree with it. We
can have a longer conversation some night. You answered my questions.
You answered them better.
Speaker 8 (33:38):
Please if you could just try to have some guests
are on the way. I just said, you know, acknowledge
the fact that it's not just goodies and baddies who.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Wants to come on the show and discuss.
Speaker 8 (33:48):
It's just it's not white having black hat thing. It's
just not right. It's just not right historically.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
I missed what you said there. I'm sorry.
Speaker 8 (33:54):
If white hat and black hat fighting over the ranch thing,
you know, metaphorically, you know, a good guys can bad.
It's just not that simple.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
It's much more metaphorically when when terrorists metaphorically, when guys
fly planes killing innocent people in the United States.
Speaker 8 (34:10):
Now you're going to twenty two years ago. Yes, and
it's complete. We're talking about.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Black cats and what you again, you used the phrase,
I want to tell you what I think. I do
think it's white hats and black hats. And I also
think when terrorists swoop in to Kubitz's where there's no
military uh uh capability, and.
Speaker 8 (34:29):
They just did it for no reason because they were
the villains. They were the comic book villains, and the
Israelis are the comic book heroes, right, it's it's super
What they should do is, you know.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Let the battle, let them battle, let them battle the
the the Israeli military. Okay, don't swoop in they don't
have the same resources. So you don't have a problem
with what was done on October seventh. You don't have
a problem with grandparents being killed in their beds by murderers.
Speaker 8 (35:01):
You know you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
You don't have any you justify.
Speaker 8 (35:07):
You have a problem almost forty two thousand Palestinians and
they're and they're holmes destroyed.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
And I have a huge problem. I have a huge
problem with that because Hamas is basically using those people,
those women and children, and those Palestinians as human shields.
Speaker 8 (35:20):
Because they take their human shields. I mean that's just
you know, like they're they're the bad guys. They're villain
their specter, right, you know, I mean, you know, they're
the villains and you can wipe out anybody who's around
them if you get them. And and the goodies and
the white hat why.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Why don't they fight?
Speaker 8 (35:37):
Why do they fights?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
They're terrorists, okay, And they don't care about the Palestinian people.
They knew exactly what's going to happen. Allison, I love
your calls, and I love your spirit, and I'll try
to get someone on and we'll we'll discuss it as well.
And I hope you call in that night.
Speaker 8 (35:54):
All right, goodbye, thank.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
You, Allison, a great night. Okay. Maybe Gary was right,
Maybe no one wants to talk about this. Well, if
you don't want to talk about this, that's fine. I'm
going to open up the phone lines. If you want
to talk about it, fine. If you want to talk
about any other subject, feel free. We got about twelve
minutes left here. Uh six one seven six seven. I
(36:18):
run the show. I do what I think is interesting.
Gary is not my producer. He can insult and tell
me that the show is boring. That's fine. Maybe he
didn't like the hour and Louis Tiant that's fine too.
That's his choice. That's his choice. I think it's a
little insulting, but that's fine. I'm back right after this break.
(36:39):
If you'd like to join me, fine, If not, I'll
talk to you about Israel again, back on Nights Side
after this.
Speaker 8 (36:45):
Now, back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Nights Side Studios.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
I'm WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Okay, you're going to try to get three in real quickly,
David and Worcester. You called late quick on time?
Speaker 6 (36:56):
Go ahead, David, Hello, mister Rae. Yes, David goright ahead,
you can even Okay, I wanted to say, you know,
you know, I was listening to the lady that you
just finished talking to, yes, and I was hoping. I
was hoping she would come up and say that she
saw the whole interview and that what you presented was
not the essence of the interview. But if, in fact
(37:19):
what you present it was the essence of the communication,
how can anybody you know question the you had mentioned
journalism one O one that was as beautiful as an
objective interview as can be.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
I agree with you. I agree with you, David, and
that's why I did it. I told my producer, don't
edit it, you know. I didn't want to run it
in six minutes, but I wanted to to cut it
up so people could digest it invites like you would
digest the meal, you know.
Speaker 6 (37:53):
And that's the duty of a journalist. You're supposed to really,
because even pay there was advocate to you know, if
you know, you'll get a side to ask the questions. So,
you know, I don't know what I just want to say.
You know that we all have our own biases and
so on, but it's a beautiful thing when actually we
are confronted openly so we can speak up the facts exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
And you know, David, I know you and I have
had calls times when we disagreed, but we've always tried
to be gentlemen about it. I have two more folks
who I want to get to. I can't tell you,
and I mean that, and I owe you sometime the
next time. Okay, thank you, David. I appreciate it. Very quickly,
I got Daryl going here, and I got Tom. Darryl.
I get to get you on quick, and then I
(38:36):
got Tom. Go ahead, Darryl.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Hey, Dan, I am for myself Israel as well. But
all this conversation and I'll kick off the line real
quick so you can get to Tom. But we would
not be talking about this if Almas did not do
something back in October seventh.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Yeah. Yeah, That's where I'm coming from. But again, all
I wanted was Allison was not able, and I'm glad
she called, and I'm glad I gave her some time.
She was not able to focus on what I was
talking about, which was the conversation between these two individuals.
Tony Coupel Cupopole, I hope I pronounced this his name correctly,
(39:16):
do copel Uh and uh. Mister Coates was good uh
and and he was criticized for it by his colleagues.
That's dangerous. That's dangerous in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
So hey, God saved American and God saved Canada.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Right, thanks, thank you, thanks terror appreciate it. Tom is
in the Philippines. Tom, I got short on time here.
I wish you called earlier, but go right ahead, my friend.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, well number one Alison needs to switch medications. Okay,
don't the call is okay, well, but anyway, but but
the point being, you had twelve hundred citizens that were
murdered by brutal terrorists and I don't care what their
cause is. And the other thing is this thirty five
(40:03):
hundred years of Jewish history in the land historically known
as Israel that later became a territory known as Palestine.
It was not a recognized country, all right. That's just
a factually correct statement.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Dam absolutely people correct.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Okay, in thee of Hamas who their religion is overwhelmingly Islam,
in the Holy Koran us.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Flat, I'm flat out of time. I'm flat out of time.
But I appreciate your calling, your support. You know that okay,
thank you, We're done for the night. Thank you Dan,
thank you Rob, thank all the listeners, all the callers,
and I'll be back tomorrow night. I will be on
Facebook in about a minute. All dogs, all cats, all
pets go to heaven. That's why Pal Charlie ray Is,
who passed fourteen years ago in February. That's why your
pets are who have passed. They loved you and you
(40:56):
love them. I do believe you'll see them again. Have
a great Thursday, everybody, Dan ray for and I so
I
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com