January 1, 2026 • 40 mins
Bradley Jay filled in on NightSide with Dan Rea:
Congestion pricing in Boston is actively being discussed amongst city leaders and officials, but what would it mean for commuters and the already-strained public transit system? Bradley discussed the idea of peak/off-peak pricing in Boston with Chris Dempsey, former Assistant Secretary of Transportation and partner with the urban planning firm Speck/Dempsey.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's nice with Dan Ray on Building Easy Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome back to night's side, Bradley Jay for Dan. Tonight,
we're going to talk about something which is probably going
to generate a lot of controversy. What do you think
about dynamic pricing when it comes to tolling in the
Boston area. In other words, you might call it surge pricing.
Another way to put it would be a b are
(00:27):
you if you come in off peak hours. It's something
to think about. I mean, traffic is crippling our city
and something needs to be done with us. Tonight we
have Chris Dempsey, former Assistant Secretary of Transportation and a
partner with urban planning firm spec Dempsey.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Welcome, Bradley. It's great to be on with you and
your listeners, and happy New Year again again. Always good
to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
We used to talk quite a bit. Now, I guess
we should first tell me about your firm and what
you do. I'm curious to hear a little bit more
about you and your firm.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
So we're an urban planning firm. We're based in Brookline,
and we work with cities and towns and states and
with private developers all the way around the world, and
as close to home as Coolidge Corner, where we're helping
the town of Brookline redesign the center Street parking lots,
and as far away at the moment as the island
of Maui in Hawaii, where we are helping the town
(01:24):
of Lahaina rebuild from those terrible wildfires that they had
two years ago. That was the most devastating wildfire in
the last century in the US. It was one of
the most walkable places in all of Hawaii, and as
they rebuild, they want to make sure it's walkable again,
and so we're helping them do that.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
How do people find you? How do people in Maui
find you?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Well, my partner is named Jeff Speck, and he wrote
a book called Walkable City, which is the best selling
urban planning book written this century.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
So it's been read by people around the world. Lots
of people even say to us that they became urban
planners because they read this book when they were in
high school or college and it put them on that path.
And so folks know him, they know of the work
that he does, and we've created this firm together and
we are really glad to be serving people and right
now we're active in something like eight or ten different states.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, I'm a big big time pedestrians, as are you.
And by the way, I feel pedestrians are underseas and
so maybe I should have him on as a guest.
Let's talk about dynamic congestion tol pricing, one way to
phrase it. What is it?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
So this is a policy that is very foreign to
people in Massachusetts. And let's be very honest here, this
is an unpopular policy. When you look at the polling,
maybe fifteen or twenty percent of people support it and
sixty or seventy percent of people oppose it. And my
goal tonight as we talk for the next hour or so,
(02:51):
is to persuade people that this might actually be a
good idea to try to fix the traffic problem that
we have and to improve our public transit at the
same time. But even if I can't persuade your listeners
that that's the right idea, I hope that I can
at least get them open to the idea that we
should try this out in a limited pilot form on
one or two roads, just to see if it works
(03:14):
here or not. And if it doesn't work, they can
run me out of town. I'll leave the state if
it doesn't work. But I think it's going to work
here is being recorded, that's all right. I think it's
going to work here because it's worked everywhere else that
it's been put in place.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So some refer to it as surge pricing and the
hackles on most people's that go up when your here, sir,
I will admit surge pricing, like get a ride share,
surge pricing bums me out. And they were talking about
dynamic pricing and supermarkets as well, sure, which I don't.
(03:49):
I don't understand how the algorithms would work, why they
would raise or lower the price. Is in a supermarket
you probably.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Do well, I don't. I don't know less. I don't
know as much about that. But let's start with an
example that I think everybody that's listening knows. Think about
matinee pricing at a movie theater. So maybe a movie
theater ticket is fifteen bucks. Now I don't go to
the movies that much. I think fifteen is maybe on
the high end, but it's around that.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I think it's like twenty bucks.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, okay, so yeah, you're right. So let's say it's
let's say it's fifteen as a normal price, and then
matinee pricing, you get maybe a three or four dollars discount,
so you're paying, you know, twelve or thirteen bucks instead
of fifteen or sixteen bucks. That's a very common thing.
We've been doing that for like centuries, since we had
since we had Vaudeville theater, there were matinees.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Here's another example, an early bird special at a restaurant,
or if you come in to eat dinner at four
thirty or five. By the way, I love an early dinner,
not just because it's cheaper, but I just like eating
early anyway. But you come in for dinner at four
thirty or five, maybe you get fifteen percent off your meal,
or maybe you get a discount on your appetizers to
fill that space early. If you come in at seven,
(04:58):
which is the highest demand time, you pay the regular prices.
And so what I'm suggesting that we do, or at
least try out with our roads in Massachusetts, is to
use that same example of matine pricing or an early
bird special, where your toll is cheaper for the less
demanded times, and it's normal or more expensive relative to
(05:20):
the discount, but more expensive or the standard price for
the high demand times. And all we're trying to do
there is for the people that do have the ability
to shift their trip in some way, then they can
save a buck or two on their toll by doing that.
And the people that don't have the ability to shift,
you think, well, wait a minute, aren't we screwing them
over because they don't have that chance to say they
(05:42):
get time, they get their time back. Because if you
take people off the road when it's most busy, the
people that have to be driving at that time, that
have no other choice but to be driving at that time,
you want to give them the fastest trip you can.
And I feel it's an obligation that our state try
this policy out to try to get things working better
for the people that need the roads to work for them.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, there are already examples in transportation of this sort
of thing. For example, the acell it to New York.
If you're willing to get up at zero o'clock in
the morning, it's affordable. Otherwise it's crazy expensive. So it's
not not that different. But of course there is the
word surge pricing. So folks, now is your chance. Let's
(06:23):
pretend just for the theater of it. This is where
we're deciding right now tonight, it's getting decided. If you
don't call in, what's going to do it. It's up
to you to It's up to you to call in.
If we don't hear from you, we assume you're down
with this congestion pricing, and if you're not a big
fan of it, we'd like to know and maybe know why.
(06:48):
After the break we can address this. Some people call
it a regressive tax, which is a tax that is
deemed to be unfair because it's a finite amount where
it affects rich people and poor people equally where it shouldn't.
So that's one of the beefs with it, and there
are others. And if perhaps you don't like it, let
us know the number six one, seven, two, five, four,
(07:10):
ten thirty. If I don't hear from you, I'm going
to assume that you're one hundred percent go on this
and we're going to start it up as soon as possible.
This is just, of course, just for the theater of it.
Six months, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty WBZ.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
We continue with Chris Dempsey farm our assistant Secretary of
Transportation here in the state here and a partner in
the urban planning firm Speck at Dimsey. And we're talking
about dynamic congestion toll pricing. Now, why do we need it?
You know, what? How bad are things and what are
the trickle down the detriments that are the result of
(07:52):
what's going on with the traffic situation. Who gets hurt
and how far down?
Speaker 3 (07:57):
So I don't think I need to tell your listeners
that traffic in Greater Boston is really bad. It's been
really bad for a while. But the data backs this up.
There's a firm called Inricks which tracks this data around
the entire world. They use anonymous cell phone pinging off
towers to be able to estimate how far, how far,
and how fast people are traveling. And they estimate that
(08:18):
Boston is the fifth worst in the entire country. In
prior years they have ranked us number one, the most
congested region in the entire country. We're at five right
now and twelfth worst in the entire world.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
The Luise, Mumbai and Singapore and and all those nightmares
looking traffic, correct, you.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
See correct, The average driver in Greater Boston wastes eighty
three hours per year just sitting in congestion. That's the
equivalent of watching The Lord of the Rings trilogy seven times.
That's how long you're seeing in traffic. I think give
credit to Boston dot com for that one.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Okay, up that fact.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
And the average speed when you're stuck in traffic heading
into Greater Boston is about ten miles per hour. So
that's really not that much faster than walking, and it's
slower than biking. That's how fast we're going, and we're
all doing it in these big cars, taking up a
lot of space and slowing down everything. Now, let's talk
about the cost of that, right it's the cost of
people's lost time is bad enough, and that alone is
(09:23):
a reason why we should be investigating this policy to
help fix it. But think about the impact that this
has on the cost of everything. And we know we're
in a time of inflation and people are being hurt
by costs. So most truck driving firms, when you talk
to the owners of truck driving firms, they'll tell you
that the cost of running a truck for about an
hour is about one hundred and twenty to one hundred
(09:45):
and thirty dollars.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yeah, you add in the cost of paying the driver,
the fuel, the cost of maintaining the truck, the insurance
they have to pay. All those things add up to
about one hundred and twenty dollars an hour, and they
have to pass those costs on, right, So when you
go to the grocery store, some portion of the cost
you are paying at the grocery store is was covered
(10:07):
by or paid to the firm that transported all of
those goods there. And by estimates that I've done in
prior years, it's adding something like three or four percent
of the cost of your groceries just the transportation costs alone.
You know, when you buy a polar Seltzer at stopping
shop in you know, in Medford that came from Worcester,
it's it's sat in traffic on the turnpike the whole
(10:29):
way there at one hundred and twenty five bucks an hour,
little pennies getting adding to every can. Those add up
over time. So that's just one example of how we
are all paying for the congestion, even if we don't
sit in that congestion ourselves, and especially if we do
sit in that congestion. I think all of this is
a compelling case for doing something different, doing something that
(10:51):
we haven't done before. And I'm all for other policies,
like we have to invest more in the NBTA, we
have to get people more options to avoid that congestion
and just to get around. I think it's worth looking
at other policies, and I hope people will call in
and suggest to other ideas. But the one that has
been proven to work in place after place and including
(11:13):
you know, old cities like Boston. Now it's now working
in New York, it's working in London, cities that are
just as old or older than Boston. Is this policy
of congestion pricing. And even though it's unpopular, I think
traffic is also really unpopular, and it's something that we
deserve to our residents deserve to have it fixed, and
we need to try out policies to do that.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Okay, So congestion pricing, surge pricing, or matine pricing, call
it with you. Well, what do you think again? When
I hear surge pricing regarding rideshare, I automatically it's a
bad feeling for me. Is it a bad feeling for
you maybe we're wrong, show us how we're wrong. It's Billy,
(11:54):
I believe in Burlington? Is that? Billy? Are you there?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Hello?
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yes? I can now, yes, Okay.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Hi guys. Sorry, I put myself on me while he
was talking. So yes, I understand what he's saying. And
you know, charging I know New York started doing it,
and you know we're thanking about doing that. But can
I ask him what does he think the major problem
is with the traffic in Boston.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
You can talk right to him. He can hear you,
he can hear here. You ask the question. You can say, hey, Chris, what.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Is Hey Chris? What is your opinion is the main
reason why traffic have gotten so bad, even after the
Big Big when they sold us on that it wasn't
going to.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Be that bad. Well, Billy, it's a great question, and
I really appreciate you calling in to have this conversation.
I think it's important for all of us to be
talking about how bad traffic is and how we can
fix it. I'm not sure that I would name, you know,
one reason why traffic is bad. People will often say, well,
it's because we have, you know, a messed up street network,
(12:54):
and you can blame the pilgrims for the cow paths
and not straight roads. Right. People will say that, but
I've heard that, you know, people will say, well, it's
because our MBTA system doesn't work that well, and if
that were just working better, then the traffic would go away.
I will tell you that I'm sort of unsatisfied by
those answers, because I think they're part of the problem,
(13:16):
but not the whole problem. When I look at some
of the data here, I see, for example, so I'm
in my early forties when I was born, compared to today,
people are driving per capita. People are driving fifty percent
more than they were forty years ago. So there's a
lot more cars on the road and a lot more
people driving on a daily basis, and so we can
(13:37):
never build enough roads to keep up with that demand. Right.
We have to start looking at using the roads that
we have a little bit more efficiently, and I think
this is one way to do that. But I'm interested
in your thoughts. What do you think are some of
the causes and how do you think we could solve it?
Speaker 4 (13:50):
All? Right, So I'm glad you asked. I've been driving
up here since I turned twenty years old, and I
love to drive. I go to the airport a lot,
I go into ball and now I go all over.
I've worked for four different companies and they're all about driving.
My biggest thing is I think it does have a
lot to play with the MBT, because why would I
want to go catch your train or bus that's constantly
(14:12):
breaking down. They have fixed a little bit of that,
but it's not new as older. I think the main
reason is because nobody car pools, so you got more
cars on the road independently than people a car pooling.
They had like some type of a monorail or something,
you know, that would help because if you're up on
ninety three, you know, and you're coming into Boston. They
(14:33):
used to have the jersey barriers there where you couldn't
get into, you know, the car pool lane. But people
abused that Now like crazy. They dove across those white lines.
They get over, and the cops are never setting down there.
Every once in a while they'll be setting down there,
you know, to pull people over who's you know, more
than not one person in the cock more. I forgot
(14:54):
how and I think that is the biggest problem. So
if they had, you know, more people that copoo and
then sentence the coppo that go back to that because
before COVID, yes, my traffic was bad, but it wasn't
as bad as it's gotten out since after COVID, because
nobody wants to ride in the car to get COVID
and you know, nobody wants to copple. That's what I see,
(15:14):
and I drive it every day. I just came back
from Logan as we speak.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
I like that, Well, you know, you.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Know your stuff, and I love hearing from someone like
you that has done this as a living and so
you've you've seen it day in and day out. You're
you're a road warrior out there, and I really respect that.
And I'm not only do I respect it, but I'm
just so glad that you're willing to call in and
just talk about it, because I think again, we need
to be talking about it more and not just trying
to sweep this problem under the rug. So I would
(15:41):
love to see more carpooling. And I would suggest to
you that this idea that I have that you have
some toll to come into the city at peak times,
is itself a little bit of an incentive to carpool.
More so, it's it's kind of different in that way.
We've talked about a movie theater, right, but this is
actually very different from a movie theater because image, if
the movie theater said to you, if you bring a
(16:02):
friend to the movie theater, we're not going to charge
you any for an extra ticket. Get you cut your
cost in half, that's effectively what you do here. Let's
say it was six dollars to drive in at rush
hour to Boston, but if you put three people in
the car, then it's only two bucks each, and that
seems like a real bargain. Now, again, that's not for everybody.
There are people that are saying, I don't want a
carpool with my coworkers. I already get enough of them
(16:23):
nine to five, right, But for the people that are
willing to do it, if they, if they, if we
can nudge them in that direction, and that takes two
cars off the road, then that's more space on the
road for the people that don't want a carpool.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And I think that's.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Okay, right, and it just there. I don't want to,
you know, hold out the people up, but just charging
people more, you know, like that Tod stuff. Boston is
a thriving city and people are getting paid very well here,
so charging the more money isn't gonna stop them. Yeah,
six bucks, I.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Appreciate that, thank you very much. Real cock to have.
This is twenty bucks now, So in.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
The commuter you know, the commuterill coming in from the
same distance as like a Burlington is going to be
eight or ten bucks. So it's still be way cheaper
to drive in than to take the train, which, when
you think about it, that's the opposite of the incentives
that we think we should want as a community. Right
in general, we want more people to take in the train,
just like Billy said, we want fewer people driving. Why
do we make it so much cheaper to drive in
(17:18):
than it is to take the tea?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
As I understand it, the reason for tolls is not
to raise money, really, but to control traffic.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, well, this is the big change that I think
we need to talk about as a state, because I
totally understand that for most of people's lives, tolling has
been about raising money. If you think about the original
turnpike Authority when it was built in the early fifties,
forties and fifties, they were very clear they're putting up
the tolls to pay off the bonds for the construction
(17:47):
of the road, and that's been kind of locked into
people's minds since the turnpike was created. But the places
that are really smart about fixing their traffic problems are saying,
you know what, tolling is actually not about raising revenue.
It's about providing a better trip for people that are
driving on the road. And there are actually some tolling
(18:08):
authorities around the country that we'll say we will give
you not only a discount, we will wipe out the
cost of your toll entirely if you get stuck in traffic.
That's how confident they are that they can use tolling
to reduce congestion on the road.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
So if it gets congested, they just turn off the
machine like free on the tape, you get to go
through the turnstaff free.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It still it stays on. But then when it actually
shows up on your built end of the month, you'll
see it crossed out and they say, we're not charging
you for that one because we did not deliver what
we promised. Who does this conjestion free road. It's more
places in like the South and in the West like Virginia,
for example, will do this, or Washington State will do this.
Where they've got they don't have the same type of
(18:53):
congestion pricing that New York has. They have it just
along a certain road, which I think would be a
good model for us here. Like you could just say, okay,
just let's just do the on the turnpike. Maybe we're
going to increase the toilet rush hour, maybe we'll reduce
it for non rush hour. But if we are, if
we are not effective at reducing congestion and rush hour,
we will give you your money back.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Wow. And I do want to agree make a point
of agreeing with what Billy said. People have cars. Everybody
is a car that carries at least, well most people
four people and this invariably one person in there one
and that that's a real weak link in the chain.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I really love Billy's call. I think he's got a
great sense of some of the problems on the road,
and he's obviously experiences every day, so it's great to
hear from him.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
And they used to enforce the car and is enforcement
on that down though, as it is in most other
areas of traffic.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
I don't know the exact numbers on that, but broadly,
enforcement on our roads has been down since twenty twenty,
and there are lots of complicated reasons for that. I
think it's important that we enforce the rules on our road,
whether that's speeding or running red lights. I think most
people have noticed that there's a lot more of that
happening than they're used to, and that's not only unsafe
for people, it's in itself a cause of congestion because
(20:05):
it leads to more crashes, and crashes cause all sorts
of delays on our roots.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Right, that's another example of how lack of enforcement is
harming us, not just public safety wise, but economically. I
would really be happy and excited if community communities would decide,
you know what, we kind of went with this easygoing
enforcement for a while, but there was a reason for it,
as it turns out, and we need to bring it back.
(20:31):
We'll continue in a moment. We have Jane calling us
from Shrewsbury. We'll get to you in a moment and
more on. We'll call it surge pricing on the tolls
in the Boston area. What do you think, w.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Besy, You're on Night Side with Dan ray on WBZ,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
More on potential surge pricing on our highways. You had.
Surge pricing is a part of ride share, and you're
going to see it more and more. You already see
it on the asella. You can call it surge pricing.
It's better to call it dynamic pricing because it you know,
in the morning, it surges down at any rate. We
(21:12):
have Jane and Shrewsbury joining Chris Dempsey, who's an expert
on transportation, and he's is an expert on this topic.
So Jane and Shrewsbury. Can you put Jane up there? Jay? Thanks?
Speaker 5 (21:24):
There we go, Hi Jane, Hi, guys.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Hi. It's great.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
Great to get a chance to ask Chris a question
because I've heard him before on the FM dial. So
I think it's a great idea to have searge pricing
or congestion pricing. And I did work in Boston for
about ten years, a long time ago, and at the time,
people could stay at parking meters all day, even if
(21:50):
they said two hours. I don't think that still happens,
and my experience is out of date, but I had
coworkers that would get rides into the city if they
lived close, so the person would be giving them a
ride in, dropping them off, going back out, and then
coming and picking them up later on. So because the
subway was too expensive theoretically, and there weren't enough loading zones,
(22:12):
so you'd find the delivery vehicles double parked all around
in front of parking meters. And I just think we
need to make the city more pedestrian friendly, which means
fewer cars are slowing down the cars, more crosswalks, So
anything that makes it safer for pedestrians my mind is better. Yeah,
(22:33):
more enforcement and the other thing. People act like electric
vehicles are the answer, but they're still cars, so they
still make they still take up space on the roads,
and they don't reduce congestion themselves. And I also want
to ask how come we don't have tolls to New Hampshire.
(22:54):
That's been a topic for so many years, and every
governor seems to say we can't do what, we can't
do it, but we get told when we go into
New Hampshire. So I don't understand that.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So the question was, how come we don't have tolls
into New Hampshire but we do at the Yeah, the
Hampton toad boo, there is a toll.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
There was no I mean, how come Massachusetts doesn't have tolls?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Oh money, they don't split it with us?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Okay, Well, Jane, it's great to hear from you, and
I think you've got a very sophisticated view on what
we need to do as a region in terms of
improving transportation. So thank you for that. I think about
this question about tolling at the borders a lot because
my in laws live in southern Maine, and so every
time that we drive up we usually we used to
(23:39):
take the Amtrak much more, but I've got a two
year old daughter now and it's a little bit easier
for us to drive with her in the car seat,
and we pay that toll at the Hampton tolls, you know,
every single time we go visit them, and it's like, well,
this is We're only in New Hampshire for like six
miles or eight miles or whatever it is, and then
we're paying this toll. So I understand that frustration. I
(23:59):
don't want to have to get into too much of
a history lesson here, but I do think that this
is a little bit important and you'll know this as
a Shrewsbury resident with the history of the Turnpike. The
turnpike was built before the Federal Highway Act of the
mid nineteen fifties, and so it was funded not with
any federal dollars but entirely with state dollars and with
(24:19):
the bonds that were paid off by the tolls on
the turnpike. Most other highways in Massachusetts, including ninety three
and much of Route one, were built with Federal Highway
state interstate dollars, and so the federal government actually prohibited
tolls on those roads. They said, you are not allowed
(24:40):
to put tolls up on those roads. And that's why,
for example, ninety three doesn't have a toll on it
anywhere on ninety three. There are many of us that
think that federal law should change and that we'd be
better off with a little bit more flexibility there. But
that's why some roads have tolls in Massachusetts and others don't.
If you're paying a toll, it's usually because of the
road was built before the Federal Highway Act of the
(25:03):
mid nineteen fifties. In terms of a toll at the border,
I think it's a really interesting idea, and I would
only caution this. You can hear from the earlier discussion
today that I'm encouraging us to think about tolling not
as a way to generate revenue, but as a way
to better improve traffic congestion. And so I fear that
if we put up tolls at the border, we're sort
(25:24):
of saying, well, let's stick it to New Hampshire because
they're sticking it to us. Let's give them some pain
because we're feeling pain from them. But I actually want
to have a conversation about how tolling helps us. It
makes us, makes our region work better for more people,
and ultimately saves people costs because they can save time
and money in so many other ways. And so let's
not think of tolling as a negative. Let's think about
(25:45):
it as a tool that we can use to make
our roads work better. So that's my only caution about that.
But I very much appreciate the question, and thank you
so much for calling in.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Do you think New Hampshire thought, you know, let's put
up a toll before Massachusetts does does that kind of thing?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Actually, I mean, look, I'm very cynical about New Hampshire politics.
And there's a governor up there right now who you know,
ran on governor saying, we don't want to be like Massachusetts,
Let's be different. But I'm of the view and I
know that that our governor here, Governor Hewley, shares this
view that New Hampshire would basically not have an economy
at all if they weren't for the Massachusetts economy. I mean,
we are the engine of the New England economy, and
(26:22):
New Hampshire is lucky to have us nearby. I know
they like to poke fun at us and talk about
how they have no sales tax and they like to
toll us, et cetera, et cetera, But I think that's
pretty small beans relative to the amazing state that we
have here in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, they have no sales tax, but they have fees
they get, they get.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Real estate taxes. Yeah, and and look, we've got you know,
probably the best public school system school systems in the
entire country, and that's because our taxes pay for that.
So that's something to be proud of that New Hampshire
definitely doesn't have.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I'm a new I am a New Hampshire person, a native,
So I can say New Hampshire live for or die.
It's just a saying because cannabis is, as I understand it,
not even really legal, completely legal. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I think that's because I think I move from the
New Hampshire into Maine recently, and right over the border
in Maine there were a bunch of cannabis shops because people.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
How free are you really living up there? I appreciate that.
Thank you very much, Jane. Can you take Jane down
j Thank you very much. How does it work in
cities where it works?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, well let's talk about New York City. So New
York City has had this policy in place for almost
exactly a year. It went in place January fifth, of
twenty twenty five. They have a toll that's nine dollars
to drive into the busiest, most congested part of Manhattan.
On a weekday, it's any time between five am and
nine pm, and on a weekend it's any time between
(27:47):
nine am and nine pm. That's for passenger vehicles. Trucks
pay even more to do that. Since they have put
this in place, their traffic is down eleven percent. The
number of cars driving into Manhattan is down eleven percent.
Their air pollution is down twenty percent. They've seen faster
driving times. They've seen faster bus service, they have seen
(28:09):
a higher transit ridership. They've seen fewer car crashes. They've
seen fewer parking violations because there are now more parking
spots available for the people that do drive in. They've
seen fewer traffic noise complaints. So all that you think
of Manhattan and gridlock and the honking that happens, and
how offensive that is if you're trying to walk down
the street, all the noise, the cacophony of noise, that's down.
(28:33):
They've seen fire response times, emergency response times improve. They've
seen school bus delays decrease, so kids are getting to
school faster. They've seen more people visiting the central part
of Manhattan than did before because it's happening more efficiently.
So transit ridership is up more than the number of
car trips is down, and so more people are visiting
(28:54):
the zone. And there were people that were saying things like, well,
this is going to be really bad for business because
it's going to scare people away. Sales tax revenue in
Manhattan is up verse prior years, and Broadway had its
best season in history after congestion pricing went in place,
So this has been a plus and a positive on
(29:17):
almost any possible way you can look at it in Manhattan,
and to me, that's compelling evidence. Again, I don't want
to persuade all of your listeners. I don't think I
can persuade them all that we should do this on
every road tomorrow. But let's at least try it out
on some other roads to see.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
If it works here. Which one if you like to
try it on.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Well, I think the obvious place to start is on
places that already have tolls up, because then you don't
need to add any infrastructure. So let's say we started
with this, right, if all we did was say we're
going to give you a discount on the Tobin Bridge
if you drive in between ten am and five pm, right,
so most of the commuting traffic is done then. And
(29:54):
if you can switch some people from driving in at
eight thirty to ten o'clock and they can save, you know,
a buck fifty or a buck twenty five on the
toll to do that, let's give them that opportunity, just
to sort of get people thinking about different pricing at
different times a day, because that doesn't happen today anywhere
in Massachusetts there's no discount for any off peak driving
anywhere in Massachusetts on our roots. Let's just start with that.
(30:15):
I don't think that's going to fix the traffic problem
on the Tobin, but it at least proves that we
have the ability to get people thinking about different prices
different times a day. That would be a starting point,
and then we could go from there.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I know you don't count telecommuting as a real answer
to the traffic problem because you don't want people to
have to completely flip the script on their lives. But
perhaps something could be done to incentivize employers to have
more staggered shifts so that you wouldn't force the employees
to come in in the peak house. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
So I'm definitely open to that broadly. But you know,
we talked about this before the show a little bit.
I think that we deserve a transportation system that works
for our economy, not an economy that has to change
because our transportation system is so flawed. It's like we
can't get our act together managing and running our roads,
and so we're going to tell the entire economy to
(31:08):
work differently than it wants to work. Imagine if we
did that with our water utilities, and we said to
two companies, you know what, you got to stop flushing
toilets from nine am to ten am because there's too
much demand at that time. You got to tell all
your employees that if they go to the bathroom, they
can't flush the toilet, right, and how awkward that would be.
Or if we said about our electricity utilities, you know what, sorry, guys,
(31:29):
there's just too much demand. We're going to shut off
all your computers from you know, one pm to three pm.
You can't use your computers anymore. I think businesses would
be rightly upset if we did that, and I think
forcing them to try to do some telecommuting is not
the right idea. Now, if we if there's some sort
of encouragement or incentive, I'm open to that conversation. But
I think it's important to fix the roads for everybody,
(31:49):
rather than to try to sort of micro manage it,
so to speak, by talking to individual companies, which any
individual company is only going to represent you know, two
three percent of cars on the road, even the biggest
company in the state. So you have to really coordinate
with a lot of them. And I don't know how
effective that's going to be versus going right to the
heart of the problem, which is the people that are
actually driving.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Okay, one hundred percent of respondents now are in favor
of dynamic pricing on the tolls. You have about ten
to twelve minutes to avoice any opposition. Can you think
of a problem with it? Do you mind paying a
little more if you have to come on in during
the rush hour? Oh by the way, when you listed
off all the benefits that New York, so you didn't
even include the revenue that generated. And that wasn't the purpose,
(32:33):
but it's kind of a nice bonus.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Thank you so much for bringing that up. And I
should have raised that again. The purpose is to make
the roads work better, not to raise revenue. But the
toll does generate revenue in Manhattan, and in their case,
they will raise five hundred million dollars this year. That
is going entirely to improve their transit system. That means
better buses, that means more subway service, that means anything
(32:57):
that the system needs to run more efficiently and more
effect They're going to be able to invest in that.
And so not only are they reducing congestion and encouraging
people to take transit. They're actually providing a better transit
service because of that. When London did this, and London
has been doing this for twenty five years now, they
were able to bond on the congestion pricing revenue before
(33:17):
it even went in place. They used that money to
buy new buses, and so the day that congestion pricing
went in place, they also put hundreds of new buses
on the road on new bus routes, so they provided
more service and more options to people, and those buses
were running faster than they would without the congestion pricing.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
It sounds like a win all the way around to me,
But there are probably things that I'm not thinking of.
Maybe Chris isn't thinking of six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty.
You have exactly actually after this break, you'll have a
few minutes to find a snagh.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Tell me why I'm wrong, tell me I'm crazy.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Good ten the plan, because as I told you, h
if you haven't spoken up by the time this is over,
we're all going to assume and anyone listening, and it
could be the governor listening that you're all into it.
So you better respond within the next few minutes. Six, one, seven, two, five,
ten thirtyth WBZ.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on wb Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
We're talking about search pricing for tolling to try to
reduce traffic and improve life, the lifestyle of all of
you getting into work in the economy. It's you can't
have the transportation system breakdown. It's I can't think of
anything more important as the weather and then this transportation
and after that, what could be more important? Now? Is
(34:40):
there anything about Americans that we hesitate to do this
kind of thing that Europeans embrace? Is there anything about
the DNA of Americans that resist this stuff?
Speaker 3 (34:52):
You know, I don't think so. And the reason I
say that is because we're really behind other states when
it comes to using this kind of take. And you
think about some of the more conservative states, the states
that you would think would be opposed to like big
government stepping in and setting prices on roads. You look
at like a Texas. Texas has dynamic pricing on many
(35:14):
roads throughout the entire state, whether you're in Houston or
Dallas or Austin. I've driven on those roads myself, and
the pricing changes with the time of day. So you
know Florida has them, you name the Red State, and
if it's got big cities, and it probably has this
kind of solution. In a lot of ways, it appeals
to conservative thinking because it's about using the market rather
(35:37):
than just having you know, a set price of zero,
leading to these long lines. You think about like the
USSR people waiting in line for bread, right. Part of
that is because there was no price on the bread,
and so you had to wait to spend wait and
spend your time rather than your rubles in that case.
So I don't think that it's necessarily a US thing.
I do think it's a Massachusetts thing, and I think
(36:00):
the Big Dig is in part to blame for this.
You know, it used to be true, Bradly that when
I was driving on the pike with my parents, like
in the nineteen eighties, you know, they might grumble that
they were paying a toll on that road when other
roads were free, but the quality of the turnpike was
actually much better than other roads in the state. The
pavement was nicer and smoother than the pavement one twenty
(36:20):
eight or ninety three, and so you you kind of grumbled,
but you were like, at least I'm getting something for
my money with the Big Dig. When we started to
increase tolls on the Turnpike to fund the Big Dig,
the quality of that road didn't get any better even
though the tolls were going up. And so people, I
think are rightly frustrated with tolling in Massachusetts because they're
paying something, they don't feel like they're getting anything out
of it. Yeah, and in Texas, when you pay your toll,
(36:43):
you know you were getting a better trip because that
money is going directly to make your trip better.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
I had to bring up the condition of the roads.
That's that's a significant factor in a commute and probably
affects congestion and time. It's just it's good.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
I'm already unpopular enough, I think with some listeners. But
let me add one more reason why why I should
be unpopular, but why they should think about this. So,
the main funding stream for the quality of our roads
in Massachusetts is the gas tax. The gas tax since
nineteen ninety one has gone up a total of three cents.
That's fourteen percent in twenty five years. And you can
(37:21):
imagine that for that amount of money, we get a
lot less road than we used to. And so if
people want better roads. They need to be looking at
the gas tax as a way to fund it.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Can some of this extra toll tax go for that?
Or it just would never well.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
I like the idea of using the tolls to fund
transit to get people more options, okay, and using the
gas tax to fund the basic quality of our roads,
because look, there are lots of roads in the state
that are never going to be told and they deserve
to be paid for with the gas tax.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Okay, folks, this is how bad the roads are. And Chris,
I know that you're going to understand this. I could
afford to take an Uber here. It's late at night,
it's cheap due to surge pricing or matinee pricing. It's
very affordable, way more affordable than owning a car for
me to take an Uber home and faster and everything.
(38:10):
You know, Chris. The reason I don't is because it
is like a hell ride. It's it's like kind of
like like a coach in cal Vera going up to
court Portsmith and you a wooden coach. It's just god
awful and I don't like driving on it. And I
live near oh Huntington, and the stretch from Huntington.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
That's really rough. Yeah, with the train tracks, it's like.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
They purposely put these vibrators in there. It's insane.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
It's funny you bring up Paul Revere because when I
worked for a transitorision advocacy firm a number of years ago,
people may remember this. We actually bought billboards around town
to talk about the traffic problem, and one of the
billboards said, if Paul Revere had to sit in this traffic,
we'd still have a king.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
So you're firm again, Uh is about what dempsy? It's about? Uh?
You got like a minute, what can we do in
our town to make things more walkable?
Speaker 3 (39:11):
Well, we have this great tradition in Massachusetts of a
lot of local control over our roads, and so people
may be surprised to learn that, like a lot of
the daily transportation challenges that they experience, whether that's they
have no sidewalks on their road, or whether it's unsafe
for their kids to walk to school because they have
to cross the six lane road, a lot of those
roads are controlled by their local government. That means that
(39:32):
it's their city councilors or their select board members who
are making the decisions about how those roads should be designed.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
You have to contact them, and you have to matters
a part of your government. It's not hard either. They
they have all their contact information right there.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
The answer for a failing democracy is always more democracy.
We have a time thing. It's all over.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
I really thank you for coming in. It's a it's
a really cold night, and I know you headed off
to the tea, so bundle up, folks. We're going to
talk to a teacher who actually teaches kids real world skills.
And I ask you ahead of time, what kind of
things do you think she should teach? What? I have
a list? What about you? What real world skills? Wbez
(40:13):
Eat News Radio ten thirty
It's nice with Dan Ray on Building Easy Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome back to night's side, Bradley Jay for Dan. Tonight,
we're going to talk about something which is probably going
to generate a lot of controversy. What do you think
about dynamic pricing when it comes to tolling in the
Boston area. In other words, you might call it surge pricing.
Another way to put it would be a b are
(00:27):
you if you come in off peak hours. It's something
to think about. I mean, traffic is crippling our city
and something needs to be done with us. Tonight we
have Chris Dempsey, former Assistant Secretary of Transportation and a
partner with urban planning firm spec Dempsey.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Welcome, Bradley. It's great to be on with you and
your listeners, and happy New Year again again. Always good
to be back.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
We used to talk quite a bit. Now, I guess
we should first tell me about your firm and what
you do. I'm curious to hear a little bit more
about you and your firm.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
So we're an urban planning firm. We're based in Brookline,
and we work with cities and towns and states and
with private developers all the way around the world, and
as close to home as Coolidge Corner, where we're helping
the town of Brookline redesign the center Street parking lots,
and as far away at the moment as the island
of Maui in Hawaii, where we are helping the town
(01:24):
of Lahaina rebuild from those terrible wildfires that they had
two years ago. That was the most devastating wildfire in
the last century in the US. It was one of
the most walkable places in all of Hawaii, and as
they rebuild, they want to make sure it's walkable again,
and so we're helping them do that.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
How do people find you? How do people in Maui
find you?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Well, my partner is named Jeff Speck, and he wrote
a book called Walkable City, which is the best selling
urban planning book written this century.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
So it's been read by people around the world. Lots
of people even say to us that they became urban
planners because they read this book when they were in
high school or college and it put them on that path.
And so folks know him, they know of the work
that he does, and we've created this firm together and
we are really glad to be serving people and right
now we're active in something like eight or ten different states.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, I'm a big big time pedestrians, as are you.
And by the way, I feel pedestrians are underseas and
so maybe I should have him on as a guest.
Let's talk about dynamic congestion tol pricing, one way to
phrase it. What is it?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
So this is a policy that is very foreign to
people in Massachusetts. And let's be very honest here, this
is an unpopular policy. When you look at the polling,
maybe fifteen or twenty percent of people support it and
sixty or seventy percent of people oppose it. And my
goal tonight as we talk for the next hour or so,
(02:51):
is to persuade people that this might actually be a
good idea to try to fix the traffic problem that
we have and to improve our public transit at the
same time. But even if I can't persuade your listeners
that that's the right idea, I hope that I can
at least get them open to the idea that we
should try this out in a limited pilot form on
one or two roads, just to see if it works
(03:14):
here or not. And if it doesn't work, they can
run me out of town. I'll leave the state if
it doesn't work. But I think it's going to work
here is being recorded, that's all right. I think it's
going to work here because it's worked everywhere else that
it's been put in place.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So some refer to it as surge pricing and the
hackles on most people's that go up when your here, sir,
I will admit surge pricing, like get a ride share,
surge pricing bums me out. And they were talking about
dynamic pricing and supermarkets as well, sure, which I don't.
(03:49):
I don't understand how the algorithms would work, why they
would raise or lower the price. Is in a supermarket
you probably.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Do well, I don't. I don't know less. I don't
know as much about that. But let's start with an
example that I think everybody that's listening knows. Think about
matinee pricing at a movie theater. So maybe a movie
theater ticket is fifteen bucks. Now I don't go to
the movies that much. I think fifteen is maybe on
the high end, but it's around that.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I think it's like twenty bucks.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, okay, so yeah, you're right. So let's say it's
let's say it's fifteen as a normal price, and then
matinee pricing, you get maybe a three or four dollars discount,
so you're paying, you know, twelve or thirteen bucks instead
of fifteen or sixteen bucks. That's a very common thing.
We've been doing that for like centuries, since we had
since we had Vaudeville theater, there were matinees.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Here's another example, an early bird special at a restaurant,
or if you come in to eat dinner at four
thirty or five. By the way, I love an early dinner,
not just because it's cheaper, but I just like eating
early anyway. But you come in for dinner at four
thirty or five, maybe you get fifteen percent off your meal,
or maybe you get a discount on your appetizers to
fill that space early. If you come in at seven,
(04:58):
which is the highest demand time, you pay the regular prices.
And so what I'm suggesting that we do, or at
least try out with our roads in Massachusetts, is to
use that same example of matine pricing or an early
bird special, where your toll is cheaper for the less
demanded times, and it's normal or more expensive relative to
(05:20):
the discount, but more expensive or the standard price for
the high demand times. And all we're trying to do
there is for the people that do have the ability
to shift their trip in some way, then they can
save a buck or two on their toll by doing that.
And the people that don't have the ability to shift,
you think, well, wait a minute, aren't we screwing them
over because they don't have that chance to say they
(05:42):
get time, they get their time back. Because if you
take people off the road when it's most busy, the
people that have to be driving at that time, that
have no other choice but to be driving at that time,
you want to give them the fastest trip you can.
And I feel it's an obligation that our state try
this policy out to try to get things working better
for the people that need the roads to work for them.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, there are already examples in transportation of this sort
of thing. For example, the acell it to New York.
If you're willing to get up at zero o'clock in
the morning, it's affordable. Otherwise it's crazy expensive. So it's
not not that different. But of course there is the
word surge pricing. So folks, now is your chance. Let's
(06:23):
pretend just for the theater of it. This is where
we're deciding right now tonight, it's getting decided. If you
don't call in, what's going to do it. It's up
to you to It's up to you to call in.
If we don't hear from you, we assume you're down
with this congestion pricing, and if you're not a big
fan of it, we'd like to know and maybe know why.
(06:48):
After the break we can address this. Some people call
it a regressive tax, which is a tax that is
deemed to be unfair because it's a finite amount where
it affects rich people and poor people equally where it shouldn't.
So that's one of the beefs with it, and there
are others. And if perhaps you don't like it, let
us know the number six one, seven, two, five, four,
(07:10):
ten thirty. If I don't hear from you, I'm going
to assume that you're one hundred percent go on this
and we're going to start it up as soon as possible.
This is just, of course, just for the theater of it.
Six months, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty WBZ.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
We continue with Chris Dempsey farm our assistant Secretary of
Transportation here in the state here and a partner in
the urban planning firm Speck at Dimsey. And we're talking
about dynamic congestion toll pricing. Now, why do we need it?
You know, what? How bad are things and what are
the trickle down the detriments that are the result of
(07:52):
what's going on with the traffic situation. Who gets hurt
and how far down?
Speaker 3 (07:57):
So I don't think I need to tell your listeners
that traffic in Greater Boston is really bad. It's been
really bad for a while. But the data backs this up.
There's a firm called Inricks which tracks this data around
the entire world. They use anonymous cell phone pinging off
towers to be able to estimate how far, how far,
and how fast people are traveling. And they estimate that
(08:18):
Boston is the fifth worst in the entire country. In
prior years they have ranked us number one, the most
congested region in the entire country. We're at five right
now and twelfth worst in the entire world.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
The Luise, Mumbai and Singapore and and all those nightmares
looking traffic, correct, you.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
See correct, The average driver in Greater Boston wastes eighty
three hours per year just sitting in congestion. That's the
equivalent of watching The Lord of the Rings trilogy seven times.
That's how long you're seeing in traffic. I think give
credit to Boston dot com for that one.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Okay, up that fact.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
And the average speed when you're stuck in traffic heading
into Greater Boston is about ten miles per hour. So
that's really not that much faster than walking, and it's
slower than biking. That's how fast we're going, and we're
all doing it in these big cars, taking up a
lot of space and slowing down everything. Now, let's talk
about the cost of that, right it's the cost of
people's lost time is bad enough, and that alone is
(09:23):
a reason why we should be investigating this policy to
help fix it. But think about the impact that this
has on the cost of everything. And we know we're
in a time of inflation and people are being hurt
by costs. So most truck driving firms, when you talk
to the owners of truck driving firms, they'll tell you
that the cost of running a truck for about an
hour is about one hundred and twenty to one hundred
(09:45):
and thirty dollars.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Yeah, you add in the cost of paying the driver,
the fuel, the cost of maintaining the truck, the insurance
they have to pay. All those things add up to
about one hundred and twenty dollars an hour, and they
have to pass those costs on, right, So when you
go to the grocery store, some portion of the cost
you are paying at the grocery store is was covered
(10:07):
by or paid to the firm that transported all of
those goods there. And by estimates that I've done in
prior years, it's adding something like three or four percent
of the cost of your groceries just the transportation costs alone.
You know, when you buy a polar Seltzer at stopping
shop in you know, in Medford that came from Worcester,
it's it's sat in traffic on the turnpike the whole
(10:29):
way there at one hundred and twenty five bucks an hour,
little pennies getting adding to every can. Those add up
over time. So that's just one example of how we
are all paying for the congestion, even if we don't
sit in that congestion ourselves, and especially if we do
sit in that congestion. I think all of this is
a compelling case for doing something different, doing something that
(10:51):
we haven't done before. And I'm all for other policies,
like we have to invest more in the NBTA, we
have to get people more options to avoid that congestion
and just to get around. I think it's worth looking
at other policies, and I hope people will call in
and suggest to other ideas. But the one that has
been proven to work in place after place and including
(11:13):
you know, old cities like Boston. Now it's now working
in New York, it's working in London, cities that are
just as old or older than Boston. Is this policy
of congestion pricing. And even though it's unpopular, I think
traffic is also really unpopular, and it's something that we
deserve to our residents deserve to have it fixed, and
we need to try out policies to do that.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Okay, So congestion pricing, surge pricing, or matine pricing, call
it with you. Well, what do you think again? When
I hear surge pricing regarding rideshare, I automatically it's a
bad feeling for me. Is it a bad feeling for
you maybe we're wrong, show us how we're wrong. It's Billy,
(11:54):
I believe in Burlington? Is that? Billy? Are you there?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Hello?
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yes? I can now, yes, Okay.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Hi guys. Sorry, I put myself on me while he
was talking. So yes, I understand what he's saying. And
you know, charging I know New York started doing it,
and you know we're thanking about doing that. But can
I ask him what does he think the major problem
is with the traffic in Boston.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
You can talk right to him. He can hear you,
he can hear here. You ask the question. You can say, hey, Chris, what.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Is Hey Chris? What is your opinion is the main
reason why traffic have gotten so bad, even after the
Big Big when they sold us on that it wasn't
going to.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Be that bad. Well, Billy, it's a great question, and
I really appreciate you calling in to have this conversation.
I think it's important for all of us to be
talking about how bad traffic is and how we can
fix it. I'm not sure that I would name, you know,
one reason why traffic is bad. People will often say, well,
it's because we have, you know, a messed up street network,
(12:54):
and you can blame the pilgrims for the cow paths
and not straight roads. Right. People will say that, but
I've heard that, you know, people will say, well, it's
because our MBTA system doesn't work that well, and if
that were just working better, then the traffic would go away.
I will tell you that I'm sort of unsatisfied by
those answers, because I think they're part of the problem,
(13:16):
but not the whole problem. When I look at some
of the data here, I see, for example, so I'm
in my early forties when I was born, compared to today,
people are driving per capita. People are driving fifty percent
more than they were forty years ago. So there's a
lot more cars on the road and a lot more
people driving on a daily basis, and so we can
(13:37):
never build enough roads to keep up with that demand. Right.
We have to start looking at using the roads that
we have a little bit more efficiently, and I think
this is one way to do that. But I'm interested
in your thoughts. What do you think are some of
the causes and how do you think we could solve it?
Speaker 4 (13:50):
All? Right, So I'm glad you asked. I've been driving
up here since I turned twenty years old, and I
love to drive. I go to the airport a lot,
I go into ball and now I go all over.
I've worked for four different companies and they're all about driving.
My biggest thing is I think it does have a
lot to play with the MBT, because why would I
want to go catch your train or bus that's constantly
(14:12):
breaking down. They have fixed a little bit of that,
but it's not new as older. I think the main
reason is because nobody car pools, so you got more
cars on the road independently than people a car pooling.
They had like some type of a monorail or something,
you know, that would help because if you're up on
ninety three, you know, and you're coming into Boston. They
(14:33):
used to have the jersey barriers there where you couldn't
get into, you know, the car pool lane. But people
abused that Now like crazy. They dove across those white lines.
They get over, and the cops are never setting down there.
Every once in a while they'll be setting down there,
you know, to pull people over who's you know, more
than not one person in the cock more. I forgot
(14:54):
how and I think that is the biggest problem. So
if they had, you know, more people that copoo and
then sentence the coppo that go back to that because
before COVID, yes, my traffic was bad, but it wasn't
as bad as it's gotten out since after COVID, because
nobody wants to ride in the car to get COVID
and you know, nobody wants to copple. That's what I see,
(15:14):
and I drive it every day. I just came back
from Logan as we speak.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
I like that, Well, you know, you.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Know your stuff, and I love hearing from someone like
you that has done this as a living and so
you've you've seen it day in and day out. You're
you're a road warrior out there, and I really respect that.
And I'm not only do I respect it, but I'm
just so glad that you're willing to call in and
just talk about it, because I think again, we need
to be talking about it more and not just trying
to sweep this problem under the rug. So I would
(15:41):
love to see more carpooling. And I would suggest to
you that this idea that I have that you have
some toll to come into the city at peak times,
is itself a little bit of an incentive to carpool.
More so, it's it's kind of different in that way.
We've talked about a movie theater, right, but this is
actually very different from a movie theater because image, if
the movie theater said to you, if you bring a
(16:02):
friend to the movie theater, we're not going to charge
you any for an extra ticket. Get you cut your
cost in half, that's effectively what you do here. Let's
say it was six dollars to drive in at rush
hour to Boston, but if you put three people in
the car, then it's only two bucks each, and that
seems like a real bargain. Now, again, that's not for everybody.
There are people that are saying, I don't want a
carpool with my coworkers. I already get enough of them
(16:23):
nine to five, right, But for the people that are
willing to do it, if they, if they, if we
can nudge them in that direction, and that takes two
cars off the road, then that's more space on the
road for the people that don't want a carpool.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And I think that's.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Okay, right, and it just there. I don't want to,
you know, hold out the people up, but just charging
people more, you know, like that Tod stuff. Boston is
a thriving city and people are getting paid very well here,
so charging the more money isn't gonna stop them. Yeah,
six bucks, I.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Appreciate that, thank you very much. Real cock to have.
This is twenty bucks now, So in.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
The commuter you know, the commuterill coming in from the
same distance as like a Burlington is going to be
eight or ten bucks. So it's still be way cheaper
to drive in than to take the train, which, when
you think about it, that's the opposite of the incentives
that we think we should want as a community. Right
in general, we want more people to take in the train,
just like Billy said, we want fewer people driving. Why
do we make it so much cheaper to drive in
(17:18):
than it is to take the tea?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
As I understand it, the reason for tolls is not
to raise money, really, but to control traffic.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, well, this is the big change that I think
we need to talk about as a state, because I
totally understand that for most of people's lives, tolling has
been about raising money. If you think about the original
turnpike Authority when it was built in the early fifties,
forties and fifties, they were very clear they're putting up
the tolls to pay off the bonds for the construction
(17:47):
of the road, and that's been kind of locked into
people's minds since the turnpike was created. But the places
that are really smart about fixing their traffic problems are saying,
you know what, tolling is actually not about raising revenue.
It's about providing a better trip for people that are
driving on the road. And there are actually some tolling
(18:08):
authorities around the country that we'll say we will give
you not only a discount, we will wipe out the
cost of your toll entirely if you get stuck in traffic.
That's how confident they are that they can use tolling
to reduce congestion on the road.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
So if it gets congested, they just turn off the
machine like free on the tape, you get to go
through the turnstaff free.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It still it stays on. But then when it actually
shows up on your built end of the month, you'll
see it crossed out and they say, we're not charging
you for that one because we did not deliver what
we promised. Who does this conjestion free road. It's more
places in like the South and in the West like Virginia,
for example, will do this, or Washington State will do this.
Where they've got they don't have the same type of
(18:53):
congestion pricing that New York has. They have it just
along a certain road, which I think would be a
good model for us here. Like you could just say, okay,
just let's just do the on the turnpike. Maybe we're
going to increase the toilet rush hour, maybe we'll reduce
it for non rush hour. But if we are, if
we are not effective at reducing congestion and rush hour,
we will give you your money back.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Wow. And I do want to agree make a point
of agreeing with what Billy said. People have cars. Everybody
is a car that carries at least, well most people
four people and this invariably one person in there one
and that that's a real weak link in the chain.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I really love Billy's call. I think he's got a
great sense of some of the problems on the road,
and he's obviously experiences every day, so it's great to
hear from him.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
And they used to enforce the car and is enforcement
on that down though, as it is in most other
areas of traffic.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
I don't know the exact numbers on that, but broadly,
enforcement on our roads has been down since twenty twenty,
and there are lots of complicated reasons for that. I
think it's important that we enforce the rules on our road,
whether that's speeding or running red lights. I think most
people have noticed that there's a lot more of that
happening than they're used to, and that's not only unsafe
for people, it's in itself a cause of congestion because
(20:05):
it leads to more crashes, and crashes cause all sorts
of delays on our roots.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Right, that's another example of how lack of enforcement is
harming us, not just public safety wise, but economically. I
would really be happy and excited if community communities would decide,
you know what, we kind of went with this easygoing
enforcement for a while, but there was a reason for it,
as it turns out, and we need to bring it back.
(20:31):
We'll continue in a moment. We have Jane calling us
from Shrewsbury. We'll get to you in a moment and
more on. We'll call it surge pricing on the tolls
in the Boston area. What do you think, w.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Besy, You're on Night Side with Dan ray on WBZ,
Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
More on potential surge pricing on our highways. You had.
Surge pricing is a part of ride share, and you're
going to see it more and more. You already see
it on the asella. You can call it surge pricing.
It's better to call it dynamic pricing because it you know,
in the morning, it surges down at any rate. We
(21:12):
have Jane and Shrewsbury joining Chris Dempsey, who's an expert
on transportation, and he's is an expert on this topic.
So Jane and Shrewsbury. Can you put Jane up there? Jay? Thanks?
Speaker 5 (21:24):
There we go, Hi Jane, Hi, guys.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Hi. It's great.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
Great to get a chance to ask Chris a question
because I've heard him before on the FM dial. So
I think it's a great idea to have searge pricing
or congestion pricing. And I did work in Boston for
about ten years, a long time ago, and at the time,
people could stay at parking meters all day, even if
(21:50):
they said two hours. I don't think that still happens,
and my experience is out of date, but I had
coworkers that would get rides into the city if they
lived close, so the person would be giving them a
ride in, dropping them off, going back out, and then
coming and picking them up later on. So because the
subway was too expensive theoretically, and there weren't enough loading zones,
(22:12):
so you'd find the delivery vehicles double parked all around
in front of parking meters. And I just think we
need to make the city more pedestrian friendly, which means
fewer cars are slowing down the cars, more crosswalks, So
anything that makes it safer for pedestrians my mind is better. Yeah,
(22:33):
more enforcement and the other thing. People act like electric
vehicles are the answer, but they're still cars, so they
still make they still take up space on the roads,
and they don't reduce congestion themselves. And I also want
to ask how come we don't have tolls to New Hampshire.
(22:54):
That's been a topic for so many years, and every
governor seems to say we can't do what, we can't
do it, but we get told when we go into
New Hampshire. So I don't understand that.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So the question was, how come we don't have tolls
into New Hampshire but we do at the Yeah, the
Hampton toad boo, there is a toll.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
There was no I mean, how come Massachusetts doesn't have tolls?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Oh money, they don't split it with us?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Okay, Well, Jane, it's great to hear from you, and
I think you've got a very sophisticated view on what
we need to do as a region in terms of
improving transportation. So thank you for that. I think about
this question about tolling at the borders a lot because
my in laws live in southern Maine, and so every
time that we drive up we usually we used to
(23:39):
take the Amtrak much more, but I've got a two
year old daughter now and it's a little bit easier
for us to drive with her in the car seat,
and we pay that toll at the Hampton tolls, you know,
every single time we go visit them, and it's like, well,
this is We're only in New Hampshire for like six
miles or eight miles or whatever it is, and then
we're paying this toll. So I understand that frustration. I
(23:59):
don't want to have to get into too much of
a history lesson here, but I do think that this
is a little bit important and you'll know this as
a Shrewsbury resident with the history of the Turnpike. The
turnpike was built before the Federal Highway Act of the
mid nineteen fifties, and so it was funded not with
any federal dollars but entirely with state dollars and with
(24:19):
the bonds that were paid off by the tolls on
the turnpike. Most other highways in Massachusetts, including ninety three
and much of Route one, were built with Federal Highway
state interstate dollars, and so the federal government actually prohibited
tolls on those roads. They said, you are not allowed
(24:40):
to put tolls up on those roads. And that's why,
for example, ninety three doesn't have a toll on it
anywhere on ninety three. There are many of us that
think that federal law should change and that we'd be
better off with a little bit more flexibility there. But
that's why some roads have tolls in Massachusetts and others don't.
If you're paying a toll, it's usually because of the
road was built before the Federal Highway Act of the
(25:03):
mid nineteen fifties. In terms of a toll at the border,
I think it's a really interesting idea, and I would
only caution this. You can hear from the earlier discussion
today that I'm encouraging us to think about tolling not
as a way to generate revenue, but as a way
to better improve traffic congestion. And so I fear that
if we put up tolls at the border, we're sort
(25:24):
of saying, well, let's stick it to New Hampshire because
they're sticking it to us. Let's give them some pain
because we're feeling pain from them. But I actually want
to have a conversation about how tolling helps us. It
makes us, makes our region work better for more people,
and ultimately saves people costs because they can save time
and money in so many other ways. And so let's
not think of tolling as a negative. Let's think about
(25:45):
it as a tool that we can use to make
our roads work better. So that's my only caution about that.
But I very much appreciate the question, and thank you
so much for calling in.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Do you think New Hampshire thought, you know, let's put
up a toll before Massachusetts does does that kind of thing?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Actually, I mean, look, I'm very cynical about New Hampshire politics.
And there's a governor up there right now who you know,
ran on governor saying, we don't want to be like Massachusetts,
Let's be different. But I'm of the view and I
know that that our governor here, Governor Hewley, shares this
view that New Hampshire would basically not have an economy
at all if they weren't for the Massachusetts economy. I mean,
we are the engine of the New England economy, and
(26:22):
New Hampshire is lucky to have us nearby. I know
they like to poke fun at us and talk about
how they have no sales tax and they like to
toll us, et cetera, et cetera, But I think that's
pretty small beans relative to the amazing state that we
have here in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, they have no sales tax, but they have fees
they get, they get.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Real estate taxes. Yeah, and and look, we've got you know,
probably the best public school system school systems in the
entire country, and that's because our taxes pay for that.
So that's something to be proud of that New Hampshire
definitely doesn't have.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I'm a new I am a New Hampshire person, a native,
So I can say New Hampshire live for or die.
It's just a saying because cannabis is, as I understand it,
not even really legal, completely legal. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I think that's because I think I move from the
New Hampshire into Maine recently, and right over the border
in Maine there were a bunch of cannabis shops because people.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
How free are you really living up there? I appreciate that.
Thank you very much, Jane. Can you take Jane down
j Thank you very much. How does it work in
cities where it works?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, well let's talk about New York City. So New
York City has had this policy in place for almost
exactly a year. It went in place January fifth, of
twenty twenty five. They have a toll that's nine dollars
to drive into the busiest, most congested part of Manhattan.
On a weekday, it's any time between five am and
nine pm, and on a weekend it's any time between
(27:47):
nine am and nine pm. That's for passenger vehicles. Trucks
pay even more to do that. Since they have put
this in place, their traffic is down eleven percent. The
number of cars driving into Manhattan is down eleven percent.
Their air pollution is down twenty percent. They've seen faster
driving times. They've seen faster bus service, they have seen
(28:09):
a higher transit ridership. They've seen fewer car crashes. They've
seen fewer parking violations because there are now more parking
spots available for the people that do drive in. They've
seen fewer traffic noise complaints. So all that you think
of Manhattan and gridlock and the honking that happens, and
how offensive that is if you're trying to walk down
the street, all the noise, the cacophony of noise, that's down.
(28:33):
They've seen fire response times, emergency response times improve. They've
seen school bus delays decrease, so kids are getting to
school faster. They've seen more people visiting the central part
of Manhattan than did before because it's happening more efficiently.
So transit ridership is up more than the number of
car trips is down, and so more people are visiting
(28:54):
the zone. And there were people that were saying things like, well,
this is going to be really bad for business because
it's going to scare people away. Sales tax revenue in
Manhattan is up verse prior years, and Broadway had its
best season in history after congestion pricing went in place,
So this has been a plus and a positive on
(29:17):
almost any possible way you can look at it in Manhattan,
and to me, that's compelling evidence. Again, I don't want
to persuade all of your listeners. I don't think I
can persuade them all that we should do this on
every road tomorrow. But let's at least try it out
on some other roads to see.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
If it works here. Which one if you like to
try it on.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Well, I think the obvious place to start is on
places that already have tolls up, because then you don't
need to add any infrastructure. So let's say we started
with this, right, if all we did was say we're
going to give you a discount on the Tobin Bridge
if you drive in between ten am and five pm, right,
so most of the commuting traffic is done then. And
(29:54):
if you can switch some people from driving in at
eight thirty to ten o'clock and they can save, you know,
a buck fifty or a buck twenty five on the
toll to do that, let's give them that opportunity, just
to sort of get people thinking about different pricing at
different times a day, because that doesn't happen today anywhere
in Massachusetts there's no discount for any off peak driving
anywhere in Massachusetts on our roots. Let's just start with that.
(30:15):
I don't think that's going to fix the traffic problem
on the Tobin, but it at least proves that we
have the ability to get people thinking about different prices
different times a day. That would be a starting point,
and then we could go from there.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I know you don't count telecommuting as a real answer
to the traffic problem because you don't want people to
have to completely flip the script on their lives. But
perhaps something could be done to incentivize employers to have
more staggered shifts so that you wouldn't force the employees
to come in in the peak house. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
So I'm definitely open to that broadly. But you know,
we talked about this before the show a little bit.
I think that we deserve a transportation system that works
for our economy, not an economy that has to change
because our transportation system is so flawed. It's like we
can't get our act together managing and running our roads,
and so we're going to tell the entire economy to
(31:08):
work differently than it wants to work. Imagine if we
did that with our water utilities, and we said to
two companies, you know what, you got to stop flushing
toilets from nine am to ten am because there's too
much demand at that time. You got to tell all
your employees that if they go to the bathroom, they
can't flush the toilet, right, and how awkward that would be.
Or if we said about our electricity utilities, you know what, sorry, guys,
(31:29):
there's just too much demand. We're going to shut off
all your computers from you know, one pm to three pm.
You can't use your computers anymore. I think businesses would
be rightly upset if we did that, and I think
forcing them to try to do some telecommuting is not
the right idea. Now, if we if there's some sort
of encouragement or incentive, I'm open to that conversation. But
I think it's important to fix the roads for everybody,
(31:49):
rather than to try to sort of micro manage it,
so to speak, by talking to individual companies, which any
individual company is only going to represent you know, two
three percent of cars on the road, even the biggest
company in the state. So you have to really coordinate
with a lot of them. And I don't know how
effective that's going to be versus going right to the
heart of the problem, which is the people that are
actually driving.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Okay, one hundred percent of respondents now are in favor
of dynamic pricing on the tolls. You have about ten
to twelve minutes to avoice any opposition. Can you think
of a problem with it? Do you mind paying a
little more if you have to come on in during
the rush hour? Oh by the way, when you listed
off all the benefits that New York, so you didn't
even include the revenue that generated. And that wasn't the purpose,
(32:33):
but it's kind of a nice bonus.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Thank you so much for bringing that up. And I
should have raised that again. The purpose is to make
the roads work better, not to raise revenue. But the
toll does generate revenue in Manhattan, and in their case,
they will raise five hundred million dollars this year. That
is going entirely to improve their transit system. That means
better buses, that means more subway service, that means anything
(32:57):
that the system needs to run more efficiently and more
effect They're going to be able to invest in that.
And so not only are they reducing congestion and encouraging
people to take transit. They're actually providing a better transit
service because of that. When London did this, and London
has been doing this for twenty five years now, they
were able to bond on the congestion pricing revenue before
(33:17):
it even went in place. They used that money to
buy new buses, and so the day that congestion pricing
went in place, they also put hundreds of new buses
on the road on new bus routes, so they provided
more service and more options to people, and those buses
were running faster than they would without the congestion pricing.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
It sounds like a win all the way around to me,
But there are probably things that I'm not thinking of.
Maybe Chris isn't thinking of six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty.
You have exactly actually after this break, you'll have a
few minutes to find a snagh.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Tell me why I'm wrong, tell me I'm crazy.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Good ten the plan, because as I told you, h
if you haven't spoken up by the time this is over,
we're all going to assume and anyone listening, and it
could be the governor listening that you're all into it.
So you better respond within the next few minutes. Six, one, seven, two, five,
ten thirtyth WBZ.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on wb Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
We're talking about search pricing for tolling to try to
reduce traffic and improve life, the lifestyle of all of
you getting into work in the economy. It's you can't
have the transportation system breakdown. It's I can't think of
anything more important as the weather and then this transportation
and after that, what could be more important? Now? Is
(34:40):
there anything about Americans that we hesitate to do this
kind of thing that Europeans embrace? Is there anything about
the DNA of Americans that resist this stuff?
Speaker 3 (34:52):
You know, I don't think so. And the reason I
say that is because we're really behind other states when
it comes to using this kind of take. And you
think about some of the more conservative states, the states
that you would think would be opposed to like big
government stepping in and setting prices on roads. You look
at like a Texas. Texas has dynamic pricing on many
(35:14):
roads throughout the entire state, whether you're in Houston or
Dallas or Austin. I've driven on those roads myself, and
the pricing changes with the time of day. So you
know Florida has them, you name the Red State, and
if it's got big cities, and it probably has this
kind of solution. In a lot of ways, it appeals
to conservative thinking because it's about using the market rather
(35:37):
than just having you know, a set price of zero,
leading to these long lines. You think about like the
USSR people waiting in line for bread, right. Part of
that is because there was no price on the bread,
and so you had to wait to spend wait and
spend your time rather than your rubles in that case.
So I don't think that it's necessarily a US thing.
I do think it's a Massachusetts thing, and I think
(36:00):
the Big Dig is in part to blame for this.
You know, it used to be true, Bradly that when
I was driving on the pike with my parents, like
in the nineteen eighties, you know, they might grumble that
they were paying a toll on that road when other
roads were free, but the quality of the turnpike was
actually much better than other roads in the state. The
pavement was nicer and smoother than the pavement one twenty
(36:20):
eight or ninety three, and so you you kind of grumbled,
but you were like, at least I'm getting something for
my money with the Big Dig. When we started to
increase tolls on the Turnpike to fund the Big Dig,
the quality of that road didn't get any better even
though the tolls were going up. And so people, I
think are rightly frustrated with tolling in Massachusetts because they're
paying something, they don't feel like they're getting anything out
of it. Yeah, and in Texas, when you pay your toll,
(36:43):
you know you were getting a better trip because that
money is going directly to make your trip better.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
I had to bring up the condition of the roads.
That's that's a significant factor in a commute and probably
affects congestion and time. It's just it's good.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
I'm already unpopular enough, I think with some listeners. But
let me add one more reason why why I should
be unpopular, but why they should think about this. So,
the main funding stream for the quality of our roads
in Massachusetts is the gas tax. The gas tax since
nineteen ninety one has gone up a total of three cents.
That's fourteen percent in twenty five years. And you can
(37:21):
imagine that for that amount of money, we get a
lot less road than we used to. And so if
people want better roads. They need to be looking at
the gas tax as a way to fund it.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Can some of this extra toll tax go for that?
Or it just would never well.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
I like the idea of using the tolls to fund
transit to get people more options, okay, and using the
gas tax to fund the basic quality of our roads,
because look, there are lots of roads in the state
that are never going to be told and they deserve
to be paid for with the gas tax.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Okay, folks, this is how bad the roads are. And Chris,
I know that you're going to understand this. I could
afford to take an Uber here. It's late at night,
it's cheap due to surge pricing or matinee pricing. It's
very affordable, way more affordable than owning a car for
me to take an Uber home and faster and everything.
(38:10):
You know, Chris. The reason I don't is because it
is like a hell ride. It's it's like kind of
like like a coach in cal Vera going up to
court Portsmith and you a wooden coach. It's just god
awful and I don't like driving on it. And I
live near oh Huntington, and the stretch from Huntington.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
That's really rough. Yeah, with the train tracks, it's like.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
They purposely put these vibrators in there. It's insane.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
It's funny you bring up Paul Revere because when I
worked for a transitorision advocacy firm a number of years ago,
people may remember this. We actually bought billboards around town
to talk about the traffic problem, and one of the
billboards said, if Paul Revere had to sit in this traffic,
we'd still have a king.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
So you're firm again, Uh is about what dempsy? It's about? Uh?
You got like a minute, what can we do in
our town to make things more walkable?
Speaker 3 (39:11):
Well, we have this great tradition in Massachusetts of a
lot of local control over our roads, and so people
may be surprised to learn that, like a lot of
the daily transportation challenges that they experience, whether that's they
have no sidewalks on their road, or whether it's unsafe
for their kids to walk to school because they have
to cross the six lane road, a lot of those
roads are controlled by their local government. That means that
(39:32):
it's their city councilors or their select board members who
are making the decisions about how those roads should be designed.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
You have to contact them, and you have to matters
a part of your government. It's not hard either. They
they have all their contact information right there.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
The answer for a failing democracy is always more democracy.
We have a time thing. It's all over.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
I really thank you for coming in. It's a it's
a really cold night, and I know you headed off
to the tea, so bundle up, folks. We're going to
talk to a teacher who actually teaches kids real world skills.
And I ask you ahead of time, what kind of
things do you think she should teach? What? I have
a list? What about you? What real world skills? Wbez
(40:13):
Eat News Radio ten thirty
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics
Two Guys (Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers). Five Rings (you know, from the Olympics logo). One essential podcast for the 2026 Milan-Cortina Winter Olympics. Bowen Yang (SNL, Wicked) and Matt Rogers (Palm Royale, No Good Deed) of Las Culturistas are back for a second season of Two Guys, Five Rings, a collaboration with NBC Sports and iHeartRadio. In this 15-episode event, Bowen and Matt discuss the top storylines, obsess over Italian culture, and find out what really goes on in the Olympic Village.