November 27, 2025 • 40 mins
Plimoth Patuxet Museums features a 17th-century village, complete with timber-framed houses, kitchen gardens, livestock, and serves to educate the public about the early interactions between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag people. Bradley welcomed Richard Pickering, Deputy Exec. Dir. and Chief Historian at Plimoth Patuxet Museums, to the program to chat about the history of Thanksgiving and beyond.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Way ONBS Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, happy Thanksgiving all. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.
I had two good Thanksgivings. Our guests probably had four
or five, four or five thanksgivings. Because he is the
King of Thanksgiving. I suppose you heard me refer to
you as the King of Thanksgiving.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
My friends called me mister Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Oh there you go. Now the case could be made
for that. First of all, who is this King of Thanksgiving?
His name is Richard Pickering. He's been on this show before,
he's been on with me before, I'm not sure, on
Night Side. And he's a super fan favorite and knows
more about Thanksgiving than anyone else probably on the planet.
(00:43):
You have more Thanksgivings per year than anyone I know.
And who better a candidate for the King of Thanksgiving?
So happy Thanksgiving too. You are the deputy director and
a senior historian at the Plymouth Patoxic Museums, which is
the headquarters of Thanksgiving. It is really the actual headquarters.
(01:04):
It's down there where there's the Mayflower two. It's really there.
And even though I'm kind of far away here in Boston,
I almost feel I can almost feel the first Thanksgiving
due to your descriptions from the past, and we're going
to get some more of those descriptions. Why don't you
start by telling us what Thanksgiving is like at the
(01:26):
Plymouth Pawtuxi Museums.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
For me, the day started with a drive time program
and then we went right into three different seedings of
the story of Thanksgiving, which is the dinner that was
served at Harvard College after Lincoln declared two Thanksgivings in
eighteen sixty three. So I have indigenous staff there, I
(01:52):
have Colonial staff, and we're doing the background on the
seventeenth century between the courses of the meal.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
So you do three seatings each of multiple courses. Yeah,
and each one of those you narrate the whole thing. Yeah,
you tie all the dishes together and tell the story.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
And they're three hundred and fifty people at each seating
in rooms that are back to back. So essentially, when
I'm in one room, my staff is in the other,
and then we flip and we just keep the meal
moving that way.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
And what is the food that is related to the
Lincoln or related Thanksgiving.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
It's the classic New England Thanksgiving dinner. So the guests
are really happy because they're having a historical experience, but
the food is not a bit unfamiliar because having been
at the museum so long, I know, if you don't
have the classic Thanksgiving meal, you haven't had Thanksgiving that year.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
So you used to do the meal as a version
of the meal that was what the actual people had
in sixteen twenty one, which didn't bear much resemblance to
what people expect.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Correct, So we've broken that out and we now call
that a harvest feast. So a person who wants to
do seventeenth century dining wants a harvest feast. If they
want classic New England Thanksgiving, they do the story of Thanksgiving?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
All right? So you did three savings of three hundred
and fifty people, and we do two more tomorrow. And
what did you do after that? After? Did you get
a break before you came here? No?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I walked right out of the six o'clock dinner and
got in a car to come here.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So that's pretty great. I'm always very thankful and super
impressed that you make your way after that probably brutal
day and come all the way up here to be
on the radio. I'm so thankful.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Well, think of all the memories we've had. I think
of the years when we were together every Thanksgiving night,
And there was the night the woman who was eighty
or eighty one called in and she said, Richard, I've
just learned I'm a Mayflower descendant. Could you tell me
about my grandparents? And to share that experience with somebody.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
It must be meaningful for you to be able to
share that.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
It is to enrich for life and the stories that
I get. When I came back as the deputy executive director,
we were doing a Lincoln inspired dinner that was filled
with Civil War role players, and to me, it was
too loud. They were intrusive on the diners, and I thought,
(04:38):
I want people talking to each other. So what we
did was kept the food, removed the immersive experience of
eighteen sixty three, and I say to the guests, I
challenge you to reach out to that stranger that's at
your table and find out why they're here. Why was
it important to be in Plymouth for a thank you
(05:00):
giving of their life? The original people at sixteen twenty
one couldn't speak to each other. There was a handful
of Wampanogue interpreters, but the bulk of people could not communicate,
but yet they feasted, they played sports. There were military demonstrations,
and you can talk to each other, so find out
(05:20):
each other's stories, and people do it.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, that must make it much more rewarding experience.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah, people will come up at the end of the
meal and say, Richard, this is what we found out
about our table.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
And we must be some interesting stories here.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah, there was. I think it was a year ago,
possibly two years there was a family where there were
three siblings that were the first outside of the Pennsylvania
coal fields. They were the first in the family to
have college degrees. So they're at the table. Their next
(05:58):
to a couple from India who are both new physicians
at mass General, who are there with their family. And
then the third family was military and they wanted their
six year old son to have a dinner at Plymouth
while they were stationed in New England. And that table
got up, they walked around, they shook one another's hands.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Is it your sense that people are from far away
view Thanksgiving as the ultimate American experience. I mean, some
would say going to Las Vegas, going out west, But
do you get a sense that a lot of them
feel I want to really be American. I want the
real Thanksgiving.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
That again and again, I'm talking to people who are saying, Richard,
this is my first Thanksgiving as an American, and I
wanted it to be here. And so I think so
many Americans who've been here a long time, their families
have been around, have lost the metaphor and the symbolic
(07:01):
nature of the Mayflower voyage. For some people, particularly New Americans,
who for reasons of religion or reasons of political persecution,
they see their story exemplified in the Mayflower story, and
for them it's deeply emotional.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I'm gonna get We're going to get into all these
details about the Mayflower trip over, paint that picture, get
rid of some misconceptions about the arrival. It's just such
a good story. And folks, you are so fortunate to
have this expert here because you're gonna you're gonna understand
Thanksgiving and what it means like you never otherwise would have.
(07:44):
And like folks who are not fortunate enough to hear
this will never until they do hear this. And also
I want to compare. I'd like to know more about
the Lincoln Thanksgiving and why that came to be so
important and more about the experts at the Plymouth Protoxic Museums,
and I'd love to have you share, Folks, this is
(08:06):
very informal. I'm always I'd love to hear what people
did for Thanksgiving. Different people do they do too, do
different things, and yeah, there's the core of it, but
sometimes it's different that you do. You prefer the cooking
or do you like going out? I actually prefer I
like giving. I like going out today. It's kind of special,
but I want to hear about your story, maybe something
(08:28):
particularly interesting that happened with your Thanksgiving. And it's also
a good time for just family members of the WBZ
community to check in without having to have something specific
today to say regarding a topic. So that will continue
after this on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's
News Radio.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Happy Thanksgiving from WBZ News Radio ten thirty on Bradley J.
And for Dan, tonight, we're with mister Thanksgiving. I called
him the King of Thanksgiving, but we can switch to
the more common sobriquet mister Thanksgiving. Richard Pickering of the
Plymouth PA Tuxit Museums, where he is very involved with
(09:13):
multiple versions of Thanksgiving, but uh and I want to
reach out to everyone. This is a great time to
check in here at six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty. Tell me about your Thanksgiving. Share it? Do
you love it? I love it. It is somehow seems
to be the only holiday that has remained this pure,
(09:35):
more than Christmas, and it's remained with the basics, family
and the meal.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
I got to spend a day with Joan Rivers today. Oh,
she's passed two or three, I don't know. A couple
of years ago, it was the year before her passage.
She loved the museum and so she had said to
her grandson, if you get an a in history, I'll
(10:00):
rent a rock Star bus and will go from Colonial
Williamsburg to Plymouth Patuxic Museums. She decided to simultaneously do
an episode of Joan and Melissa. Mother knows best, really,
and as I was with her, it was an amazing
experience where at Plymouth Rock, and she says, Richard, tell
(10:22):
me about Plymouth Rock. So I'm telling her about the rock.
The cameras aren't running, there's no crew with us. She
just wanted to know about the rock. So retentive that
as the crowds are gathering, because I'm with Joan Rivers,
she starts interpreting the history of the rock, and she's flawless.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
She's telling people about why don't you tell us about
the rock.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
The Rock, to me is one of those experiences that
people will say, oh, it's so small, and they don't
realize its impact on American history, and it's changing. Symbolism
has moved from the waterfront to this town square, to
(11:05):
in front of Pilgrim Hall Museum, then back to the waterfront,
and then in nineteen twenty it was put in this
Greek temple where it currently is. When they tried to
move the rock in the eighteenth century, the rock was
so enormous that it split in two, and the sons
of the patriots said, this is a symbol that we
(11:26):
are to break with Britain. Of course they did, and
so the rock gets moved up to town square. The
Liberty pole is there, Liberty flag is being flown over it.
So the rock, for some people, there's a battle between
different Mayflower families as to who stepped onto it first.
(11:47):
We really don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So is the rock, I mean, legit, is there any
way to know. I'm trying to put myself. You know,
they're freezing cold. They're just happy to step on land.
And somebody say, somebody say, mark that rock. Remember that rock,
that's the first rock we stepped on. I mean maybe
they did, because it was the first piece of land
they stepped on, but maybe they didn't. How do we
know that? Isn't that the.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Actual rock we Samuel Elliott Morrison felt the story had significance,
but it wasn't a landing that no one stepped on
the rock. That the rock was so enormous, and today,
if you can imagine a shivis regal bottle. The part
of Plymouth Rock that we're seeing is the cork and
there is a massive, massive amount of granite below it,
(12:34):
underneath the sand. So you've got a rock that split
has been chipped away, is smaller than it was and
is still impressive. And Samuel Elliott Morrison, who was a
naval historian, said, a pilot is being told go to
that giant rock. Okay, get a ship near the brooks?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Is there the rock? Is something about that in the
captain's log or anything. Nope, we headed for the big
big rock.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Never gets mentioned.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
When did the Plymouth Rock start to get talked about
at seventeen forty one, Okay, so that's one hundred and
twenty years right before anyone even mentioned the rock. Why
did they mention it?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Then a peer or a wharf was going to be
built over the rock, and this man in his nineties,
who was the elder of the church, was distraught, and
so he said, could you please take me down to
the waterfront one more time? And they put this man
in his nineties in a sedan chair and they carried
(13:34):
him three miles from his home to the waterfront at Plymouth,
and he tapped on the rock with his cane, and
all of those people who had followed him in the
sedan chair are learning that this is where the pilgrims land.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Wow, so no one really knew except this man. The
public didn't really know.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
And so a later historian, writing about the story because
it had been dismissed, that everybody needs to be mindful
that elder Fonce knew all of the first generation. And
Judge Davis broke down Thomas Fonce's life dates against the
(14:20):
dates of William Bradford, John Alden, John Howland, and you
realize that he knew the first generation into his forties Wow,
so that as an adult when he told this story,
people were so moved by his emotion about the rock
being covered by a wharf that when the wharf went up,
(14:41):
they cut a hole in it and put a railing
in so people could look down on the rock. And
so it's that moment that gives the rock significance, and
then later the attempt to move the rock ties it
now to revolutionary ideas.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
That is what about? What else about Plymouth is very
Thanksgiving related? Are there other attractions or other historical sites
that people can visit that are related to the landing
or to the first Thanksgiving or to events subsequent.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Well, Plymouth has the oldest continually operating private museum in
the nation in Pilgrim Hall. Unbelievable collection. It has the
most objects with a direct tie to possible Mayflower passage,
historical paintings that represent the First Thanksgiving. It's just an
(15:41):
amazing collection.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Any articles that I doubt that we're on the original
may Flower, like I don't know an or or a
metal piece.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
There are chairs that are said to have been owned
by Governor Carver, William and then William Brewster there is
a damask napkin that's said to have been owned by
Richard Warren. So there are objects that could possibly have
come over on Mayflower in their collection.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Speaking of came over? Who came over? And I heard
this professor say that the crew did not like the
passengers at all. The passengers were divided into religious folks
and mercenaries, but that the crew didn't like them at all,
and we're happy to be rid of them. Is that?
(16:35):
What's the story there?
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I've always wondered about the nature of Christopher Jones, who
was the master of Mayflower and a quarter owner of
the ship, because Governor Bradford in of Plymouth Plantation writes
about how the passengers are treated by the crew and
the amount of abuse they suffered in their hands, and
I wondered, did the captain or his junior officer, did
(17:00):
they not see any of this? Did they not intercede,
you know, on the benefit of the passengers. Who there's
one sailor who is saying, I'm gonna love feeding you
to the fishes, I'm gonna love throwing your body overboard,
I'm going to take your things, and Governor Bradford kind
of enjoys the fact that he reports that this young
(17:21):
man died half way across and they threw his body
in the water.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I don't think people understand how tough times were then.
There's no way for us to grasp the brutality of
the times in general, even when you're not on a
transatlantic crossing. Yes, it's a brutality. Life was really cheap then.
People didn't live that long then, and you had ten
kids and maybe three or five lived. Yeah, and so
(17:49):
an entirely different expectations was Plymouthy intended arrival point? Was
it Virginia they wanted to.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
They thought they were going to be Virginians, and they
were going within the boundary of the Virginia Company, which
is essentially from northern Florida to Hoboken, New Jersey. Virginia
is that extensive. They wanted to be under the Virginia Company,
but far enough away from Jamestown that there would be
(18:22):
no danger of the Church of England being thrust on them.
And why would they want to be within Virginia because
it's an established, royally approved company and above that, above
New Jersey or Virginia. At the time, what was that considered?
That was New England and was it wild and wooly
(18:42):
and untamed or was it just politically not as good
for them? No one really knew New England as well
as the Chesapeake except for fishermen and traders.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
I heard that that fishermen were coming from England to
fish cod like centuries before the Mayflower, at least hundred years. Yeah,
for at least one hundred years. And I also heard
that upon arrival, the people on the Mayflower had the
wrong sized fishooks. Yes, is that true?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
These were these were farmers. They had hired fishermen to
stay with them and educate them for a year, but
they didn't equip themselves well. And we all have to
remember what they themselves talked about, we are the first,
we have no teachers. And so they knew they were
(19:36):
going to be stumbling through things because what they were
trying was so novel and Virginia wasn't a success at
that point they were heading to Virginia, did they actually
expect to survive? I think they did because they they
recognized that they were different from the bulk of people
(19:58):
going to Virginia in that Virginia's population is predominantly bachelors,
predominantly people who are thinking let's make some quick bucks
here and go home. Where these were political refugees, religious refugees,
others who had come for the possibility of owning land.
(20:20):
No one was looking to go home again. And my
mentor non a Pashmat, the great Wampinogg historian, He said, Richard,
what was a message to Wampanog people was the presence
of women and children and the elderly. What was that
message that the English never could have suspected that after
(20:41):
one hundred years of only seeing men and boys as
traders and as fishermen, suddenly you have entire families getting
off a ship. And the nonverbal message for Indigenous.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
People is we're here to stay.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Yeah, we don't take our women and our children and
our elderly into any potentially violent situation. So the English
would have no idea that the message that they're sending
to Indigenous eyes is one if we come and no harm.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Okay, that's good. That would also send a message that
we're not here just to plunder, We're here to populate.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yes, yeah, and they're not particularly successful at that.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
That rough year. Yeah, we'll get into that right after this.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I w BZ you're on night side with Dan Ray
on w b Z, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Bradley J And for Dan tonight and we're with Richard Pickering,
who is mister Thanksgiving. He's the deputy director of the
Plymouth Patuxt Museums, which is headquarters. It truly is ground
zero for Thanksgiving. Also the chief historian, as you probably
could have guessed by his deep knowledge of everything to
do with the time. Let's see, where were we. We
(21:59):
were on the on the Mayflower, wondering certain things and
expected to go to Virginia as it was then, which
was like a huge place. It's very good that you
made me understand that. I didn't know that. I kind
of always thought of it and it's current iteration. But
no Virginia. It was New England, and then Virginia started
(22:21):
right away. Yes, there was nothing in between, no mid Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And in sixteen twenty, New England's name was new that
Captain Smith had come through and mapped New England and
he gave it its regional name.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Oh yeah, what was it before it was New England?
Just those woods?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Yeah, it was just essentially those woods over there, and
he gives it a name with a real sense of
real estate savvy of would you rather go to a
place called Virginia or a place called New England?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Right, it's got your home attached right.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
To the name, and he takes the map back to England.
It has no names on it other than the region
is now New England, and one of James's sons names
all of the places in New England. So there is
this tradition that Plymouth was named Plymouth because the Mayflower's
(23:19):
successful departure from England was Plymouth, England, and no, it
was already named Plymouth. So even though for thousands of
years it had been Peduxit to Wampanog people, and it
still is ptux It this day. Even though it's more
commonly known as Plymouth, it's still also patux It. What
(23:43):
does potoxic translate to a place of little waterfalls? Because
the water was so fine, and it's one of the
reasons that they chose the site on Lyden Street or
what would be called Lydon Street, because as it's surrounded
by springs, the water was so good.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
And Leiden streets so named because they left from or
they were from Leiden.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yep, it was, it was just the street until the
early nineteenth century. There was only one street, and then
in the nineteenth century it was given the name of
Leiden Street. But in the seventeenth century it was just
the street, and for a.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
While it wasn't even a street. It was just kind
of a space between two roses, probably still grass or
mud more likely it could be. So Mayflower shows up.
It took a lot longer. It was a lot worse
than they thought, and they figured they were in Virginia
(24:41):
near New Jersey, but no, that turns out, well, we
were way north of that, and they tried to go.
They tried to head down, but the weather was just
too much and they said, you know, we can't do this.
This is where we're at, pretty good place to stop
protected harbor. We're gonna stay here. This is it it
or leave it. And they didn't jump right onto the
(25:04):
land right away, right they hung out in the ship
because they did have to do the mayflow compact. But
what else were they doing during that month?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Well we can I think we can complicate the story
further because they knew that they were at Cape Cod
and historians and mariners think they left England so very
late that Jones decided to come the more northern route
(25:33):
instead of the southern route because it was faster, though
it was more treacherous. And so they know they're at
Cape Cod. They're not very far away from where they
need to be, only ninety three nautical miles. We think
of it in land terms and land passages, but in
nautical terms, it's only ninety three miles. They are very close.
(25:56):
And then Jones gets caught in the shoals off the
town of checks Adam, and may Flower almost breaks apart,
and so he says, I can't get you south. You
have to stay here. There's an additional complication to that story.
Bradford never suspects Jones of anything. Jones he was the
(26:19):
master the ship and the owner of the ship. In
sixteen sixty nine, William Bradford's nephew, Nathaniel Morton prints the
first full length history of Plymouth Colony, and in fact
it's the first full length history of any English speaking
colony on the East Coast. In it, he takes large
(26:45):
passages from his uncle's manuscript, but at one point he
puts in a margin, sure, and certain information has just
come to me that Christopher Joe was working for the Dutch.
What does that mean that means he was being paid
(27:06):
by Dutch merchants never to get them anywhere near in
the vicinity of Manhattan or northern New Jersey. And so
it could be that he accidentally is in the shoals,
because no ship owner, no mariner, would want to be
in that situation. But the shoals now cover duplicity.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
And then do you think he went into the shows
as an excuse not to go south?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
No, I don't think he went to the purposely, but
they cover his original intention.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So that was the silver lining for him.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
And for a while people never accepted what Morton said
in suspicion of the captain. But then a historian in
the nineteen forties said, it has to be remembered that
the first governor, the first mayor of Manhattan after it
seized from the Dutch, was a member of the Pilgrim's
(28:06):
Church in Leiden and fluent in Dutch. And so now
you have this man attached to Plymouth, who has access
to all the Dutch business records in New York.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Why would the Dutch not want the Mayflower to head
down to Amsterdam.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
They had already been looking at that site themselves. Interesting
they were seen. I just didn't want the competition. No,
so our mayflower folks are stuck up here.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
In the frozen north. And what else were they doing
for that month? Why did it take a month before
they got off the ship and stepped on the rock?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Provincetown what is now called Provincetown proved very unsatisfying to
their needs. They couldn't find a source of water that
wasn't brackish, they couldn't find rich soil and so and
then having marauded and stolen native corn, having dug up
(29:05):
and stolen from native graves, they now are seen as
these dangerous intruders on the land.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
And so at it's more risk it does.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
And so what you see in the attack on December seventh,
sixteen twenty at what is now First Encounter Beach in
East Dam, the Wampanog people are driving them up and away,
and so it takes them three voyages of discovery as
they call them, to find a peduxit to fine plymouth.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
The well, excuse me, can you talk a little bit
about the Mayflower compact and why they didn't why did
they wait till the last minute to do that? Was
that an afterthought?
Speaker 3 (29:54):
This is where I'm going to be controversial, and there
there are some other historians who are in agreement with me,
and we've all come to this thinking without talking to
one another about it. But we suspect that the Mayflower
Compact was used in crisis, not drafted in crisis, and
that when you look at how mindful John Robinson, their minister,
(30:19):
had been in Holland, and the deep advice he gives
them about community construction, that we, some of us think
the Mayflower Compact would have been signed to anywhere they landed.
It gets used to bind themselves together in crisis of
some people saying, we're not in Virginia, We're we don't
(30:40):
have to stay with any of you. We can do
whatever we want. We're on our own now. But they
have to hold people together before anyone can leave that ship.
The Mayflower Compact essentially creates a civil body politic where
every household is bound to every other household.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Because without that they would have not right. And do
you think they had to pressure that some people to
sign it? I do, I do? Who would not wanted
to have signed it?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
The mercenaries, well, they aren't really mercenaries because the merchants
the quote unquote strangers. Okay, you know there's this classic
divide of there were the saints that were the members
of the church, and then there were the strangers who
weren't members of the church and they were not spiritual.
The reason the church left Holland was their numbers were
(31:30):
shrinking because of the poverty and the deprivation of living
in Holland. And so they said, if we move the
church to where there's the potential for profit, others will
worship with us. So the strangers, the people unknown to
them function may have been joining this party saying, not
(31:50):
going to worship in poverty, but if there's the potential
for safety and profit, I'll join the church, I'll go
with them. So there could be some that are just
there for the chance for land and profit and others
for whom it's worship and profit.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I'm going to take a quick break and then go
to David in San Francisco. But an observation, what would
you say the odds of making a safe surviving in
a transatlantic crossing We're back then eighty percent. You probably
would maybe twenty fifty to fifty something like that. I
just want to point out that if airlines were like that, no,
(32:28):
no one would go right. It's a wildly dangerous thing
to do, and so you would have to be desperate
to do it, either desperate for profit or desperate for
some kind of freedom, desperate to get away from the law,
or something else. So we'll break and continue with Richard
Pickering and we will talk to David in San Francisco. Hopefully, David,
(32:51):
you'll have something to add to this topic after this
on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Every Thanksgiving, I had a super heavy Thanksgiving, hassle free.
I only had to walk thirty five steps from home
to Thanksgiving and back thirty five steps. We're with mister Thanksgiving,
Richard Pickering, and we're talking. We are going really granually
on the history of events leading up to Thanksgiving. But
(33:24):
we have David in San Francisco. It's always nice to
hear from David. You have some Thanksgiving words for us.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Hi, David, how old Rally. It is so good to
hear from you. And I just got home and I'm
not familiar with the topic you're talking about. However, this
is the second time I've talked to you. When you
were sitting in on on Thanksgiving?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
How is your thanks How is your Thanksgiving?
Speaker 4 (33:52):
Very good? I gotta I got some people bring some
food to me and from little brothers, friends of the elderly.
And then the other day I had one for my
meals on wheels. Uh, they're my regular food supply. So
I had a fourth year an hour in a row
that had meals from both those people, and they were
(34:13):
very good.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Did you get visits from anybody? Did you get a
visit from anybody? Nice phone call? Any visits?
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Any what?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
It's all right you you had a question for me?
Go ahead?
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Oh no, this is the second time I'm talking to you, uh,
since you're sitting in uh for somebody on Thanksgiving. And
the first time. The first time was a number of
years ago. You were sitting in for a Morgan White
Junior and you ran a trivia game and I won.
I won a T shirt. And it's when your management
(34:50):
of your radio station.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Said, gave away any prizes?
Speaker 4 (34:57):
No, no, but you had to come to the radio
station to get the T shirt. And I'm thirty three
hundred miles away. And my sister Vicky works at a
hospital in Baltimore, and she had worked with a nurse
who had a sister that lived in Boston, and her
sister came to the station, got me the T shirt,
nailed it to my sister, and then my sister mailed
(35:18):
me the T shirt. So a lot of miles on
it and a lot of change of hands.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I hope you still have that shirt. Pardon, I hope
you still have that shirt.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Oh yeah, it's a w b z U The's Radios
T shirt. And also I want to tell you my
still my favorite number one song of all time is
a Walk into the Rain by.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I appreciate that. I want to wish you a happy Thanksgiving, David,
and we need to I have to say goodbye. I'm
very sorry, thank you so much for calling. Appreciate it.
But we do need to stick with the Thanksgiving and
Richard Picket Ring in the history of Thanksgiving from mister
Thanksgiving himself. So we will get to the first Thanksgiving.
(36:08):
But each time you come in, I learned another layer
of things about the events eating up to it, and
the event itself, and about Plymouth, the town. I learned
something I didn't know about you, that you're mister Sombrero
as well as being mister Thanksgiving. And I saw a
picture of this massive sombrero, bigger than anything by far.
(36:31):
It's like cartoonishly large, giant sombrero. And people in your
town know you as mister Sombrero. Ye, what's the deal
with that?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
I've had skin cancer right. My brother bought that sombrero
for me as a joke when I was seven years old,
and it has a three and a half foot wide brand.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
It's bigger than you.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
So I can sit on the front lawn and be
in the sun and not endanger my skin. But now
people will say where's the hat? If I'm on the
front lawn and I'm not in it, or if I
don't appear. I was recently on the town's Facebook page, like,
has anyone seen mister Sombrero lately? The sobrero makes me laugh.
(37:15):
And so if I can bring people a smile by
sitting on my front lawn in a stupid hat.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Do they know what you do?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Or you're just mister sombrero. Some people know who I am.
Other people, I'm just the guy in the hat. People
drive by and wave, People pull up at the house
and say, we didn't see you on our last vacationion.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
We were wor sad. Yeah, we were worried like this year.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Someone said, thank god, you're not dead.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Well, you need to have a big sign that you
put out when you're not there, said, you know, temporarily gone,
not dead, something like that. Okay, a short time before
the top of the hour. Finally, oh, no, I wanted
to ask you, did the did the pilgrims they feel
bad about taking the Indians corn? And can you explain
(38:07):
why there were this corn available? And no, no, I
shouldn't say Indians. No, Native Americans. They're very few compared
to what had been there, maybe ten years before. Maybe
the persons who would bury the coin, they weren't gone.
It was a ghost town.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Why there had been epidemic death from sixteen sixteen to
sixteen eighteen that an infection or multiple infections. There have
been so many theories about what it was, and we
can't say with any honesty as to whether it was
bubonic plague or yellow fever.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
We don't know. Are there any DNA? Is there any
way to get DNA? I don't know? Are there any
Do you have the remains of any of the Native
Americans at the time.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Not that I know, and that would be sacrilege too. Okay, Yeah,
not worth knowing. You don't either know everything. But the
families on Cape Cod that were stolen from they were
still there. So they weren't stealing from the barns of
the dead. They were stealing from families that ran from them.
(39:12):
So in the summer of sixteen twenty one, when one
of the children in Plymouth goes missing and is twenty
miles from the town, he's transferred not closer to Plymouth,
he sent back to the Cape where the corn was stolen.
So the English had to confront the very families they
(39:34):
had stolen from.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Oh yeah, and so as you mentioned, this made it
a much more dangerous place for the new arrivals because
they were now seen as thieves. Yes, and was there
an early Well, you know what, we're almost out of
time here. We'll take this break, but we'll continue to
pick up where were that fought right after this break
(39:55):
with Richard Pickering, who is the deputy director and senior
are in at Plymouth Patuxet Museums. If you have not
been down there, you gotta go. It's super cool. Just
ask Jalen Rivers right the number six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty and our next call will be Hannah and
Steve down in Chatham w b Z NewsRadio ten thirty
It's Night Side with Dan Way ONBS Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, happy Thanksgiving all. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.
I had two good Thanksgivings. Our guests probably had four
or five, four or five thanksgivings. Because he is the
King of Thanksgiving. I suppose you heard me refer to
you as the King of Thanksgiving.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
My friends called me mister Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Oh there you go. Now the case could be made
for that. First of all, who is this King of Thanksgiving?
His name is Richard Pickering. He's been on this show before,
he's been on with me before, I'm not sure, on
Night Side. And he's a super fan favorite and knows
more about Thanksgiving than anyone else probably on the planet.
(00:43):
You have more Thanksgivings per year than anyone I know.
And who better a candidate for the King of Thanksgiving?
So happy Thanksgiving too. You are the deputy director and
a senior historian at the Plymouth Patoxic Museums, which is
the headquarters of Thanksgiving. It is really the actual headquarters.
(01:04):
It's down there where there's the Mayflower two. It's really there.
And even though I'm kind of far away here in Boston,
I almost feel I can almost feel the first Thanksgiving
due to your descriptions from the past, and we're going
to get some more of those descriptions. Why don't you
start by telling us what Thanksgiving is like at the
(01:26):
Plymouth Pawtuxi Museums.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
For me, the day started with a drive time program
and then we went right into three different seedings of
the story of Thanksgiving, which is the dinner that was
served at Harvard College after Lincoln declared two Thanksgivings in
eighteen sixty three. So I have indigenous staff there, I
(01:52):
have Colonial staff, and we're doing the background on the
seventeenth century between the courses of the meal.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
So you do three seatings each of multiple courses. Yeah,
and each one of those you narrate the whole thing. Yeah,
you tie all the dishes together and tell the story.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
And they're three hundred and fifty people at each seating
in rooms that are back to back. So essentially, when
I'm in one room, my staff is in the other,
and then we flip and we just keep the meal
moving that way.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
And what is the food that is related to the
Lincoln or related Thanksgiving.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
It's the classic New England Thanksgiving dinner. So the guests
are really happy because they're having a historical experience, but
the food is not a bit unfamiliar because having been
at the museum so long, I know, if you don't
have the classic Thanksgiving meal, you haven't had Thanksgiving that year.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
So you used to do the meal as a version
of the meal that was what the actual people had
in sixteen twenty one, which didn't bear much resemblance to
what people expect.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Correct, So we've broken that out and we now call
that a harvest feast. So a person who wants to
do seventeenth century dining wants a harvest feast. If they
want classic New England Thanksgiving, they do the story of Thanksgiving?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
All right? So you did three savings of three hundred
and fifty people, and we do two more tomorrow. And
what did you do after that? After? Did you get
a break before you came here? No?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I walked right out of the six o'clock dinner and
got in a car to come here.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
So that's pretty great. I'm always very thankful and super
impressed that you make your way after that probably brutal
day and come all the way up here to be
on the radio. I'm so thankful.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Well, think of all the memories we've had. I think
of the years when we were together every Thanksgiving night,
And there was the night the woman who was eighty
or eighty one called in and she said, Richard, I've
just learned I'm a Mayflower descendant. Could you tell me
about my grandparents? And to share that experience with somebody.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
It must be meaningful for you to be able to
share that.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
It is to enrich for life and the stories that
I get. When I came back as the deputy executive director,
we were doing a Lincoln inspired dinner that was filled
with Civil War role players, and to me, it was
too loud. They were intrusive on the diners, and I thought,
(04:38):
I want people talking to each other. So what we
did was kept the food, removed the immersive experience of
eighteen sixty three, and I say to the guests, I
challenge you to reach out to that stranger that's at
your table and find out why they're here. Why was
it important to be in Plymouth for a thank you
(05:00):
giving of their life? The original people at sixteen twenty
one couldn't speak to each other. There was a handful
of Wampanogue interpreters, but the bulk of people could not communicate,
but yet they feasted, they played sports. There were military demonstrations,
and you can talk to each other, so find out
(05:20):
each other's stories, and people do it.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, that must make it much more rewarding experience.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah, people will come up at the end of the
meal and say, Richard, this is what we found out
about our table.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
And we must be some interesting stories here.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah, there was. I think it was a year ago,
possibly two years there was a family where there were
three siblings that were the first outside of the Pennsylvania
coal fields. They were the first in the family to
have college degrees. So they're at the table. Their next
(05:58):
to a couple from India who are both new physicians
at mass General, who are there with their family. And
then the third family was military and they wanted their
six year old son to have a dinner at Plymouth
while they were stationed in New England. And that table
got up, they walked around, they shook one another's hands.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Is it your sense that people are from far away
view Thanksgiving as the ultimate American experience. I mean, some
would say going to Las Vegas, going out west, But
do you get a sense that a lot of them
feel I want to really be American. I want the
real Thanksgiving.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
That again and again, I'm talking to people who are saying, Richard,
this is my first Thanksgiving as an American, and I
wanted it to be here. And so I think so
many Americans who've been here a long time, their families
have been around, have lost the metaphor and the symbolic
(07:01):
nature of the Mayflower voyage. For some people, particularly New Americans,
who for reasons of religion or reasons of political persecution,
they see their story exemplified in the Mayflower story, and
for them it's deeply emotional.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I'm gonna get We're going to get into all these
details about the Mayflower trip over, paint that picture, get
rid of some misconceptions about the arrival. It's just such
a good story. And folks, you are so fortunate to
have this expert here because you're gonna you're gonna understand
Thanksgiving and what it means like you never otherwise would have.
(07:44):
And like folks who are not fortunate enough to hear
this will never until they do hear this. And also
I want to compare. I'd like to know more about
the Lincoln Thanksgiving and why that came to be so
important and more about the experts at the Plymouth Protoxic Museums,
and I'd love to have you share, Folks, this is
(08:06):
very informal. I'm always I'd love to hear what people
did for Thanksgiving. Different people do they do too, do
different things, and yeah, there's the core of it, but
sometimes it's different that you do. You prefer the cooking
or do you like going out? I actually prefer I
like giving. I like going out today. It's kind of special,
but I want to hear about your story, maybe something
(08:28):
particularly interesting that happened with your Thanksgiving. And it's also
a good time for just family members of the WBZ
community to check in without having to have something specific
today to say regarding a topic. So that will continue
after this on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's
News Radio.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Happy Thanksgiving from WBZ News Radio ten thirty on Bradley J.
And for Dan, tonight, we're with mister Thanksgiving. I called
him the King of Thanksgiving, but we can switch to
the more common sobriquet mister Thanksgiving. Richard Pickering of the
Plymouth PA Tuxit Museums, where he is very involved with
(09:13):
multiple versions of Thanksgiving, but uh and I want to
reach out to everyone. This is a great time to
check in here at six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty. Tell me about your Thanksgiving. Share it? Do
you love it? I love it. It is somehow seems
to be the only holiday that has remained this pure,
(09:35):
more than Christmas, and it's remained with the basics, family
and the meal.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
I got to spend a day with Joan Rivers today. Oh,
she's passed two or three, I don't know. A couple
of years ago, it was the year before her passage.
She loved the museum and so she had said to
her grandson, if you get an a in history, I'll
(10:00):
rent a rock Star bus and will go from Colonial
Williamsburg to Plymouth Patuxic Museums. She decided to simultaneously do
an episode of Joan and Melissa. Mother knows best, really,
and as I was with her, it was an amazing
experience where at Plymouth Rock, and she says, Richard, tell
(10:22):
me about Plymouth Rock. So I'm telling her about the rock.
The cameras aren't running, there's no crew with us. She
just wanted to know about the rock. So retentive that
as the crowds are gathering, because I'm with Joan Rivers,
she starts interpreting the history of the rock, and she's flawless.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
She's telling people about why don't you tell us about
the rock.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
The Rock, to me is one of those experiences that
people will say, oh, it's so small, and they don't
realize its impact on American history, and it's changing. Symbolism
has moved from the waterfront to this town square, to
(11:05):
in front of Pilgrim Hall Museum, then back to the waterfront,
and then in nineteen twenty it was put in this
Greek temple where it currently is. When they tried to
move the rock in the eighteenth century, the rock was
so enormous that it split in two, and the sons
of the patriots said, this is a symbol that we
(11:26):
are to break with Britain. Of course they did, and
so the rock gets moved up to town square. The
Liberty pole is there, Liberty flag is being flown over it.
So the rock, for some people, there's a battle between
different Mayflower families as to who stepped onto it first.
(11:47):
We really don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So is the rock, I mean, legit, is there any
way to know. I'm trying to put myself. You know,
they're freezing cold. They're just happy to step on land.
And somebody say, somebody say, mark that rock. Remember that rock,
that's the first rock we stepped on. I mean maybe
they did, because it was the first piece of land
they stepped on, but maybe they didn't. How do we
know that? Isn't that the.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Actual rock we Samuel Elliott Morrison felt the story had significance,
but it wasn't a landing that no one stepped on
the rock. That the rock was so enormous, and today,
if you can imagine a shivis regal bottle. The part
of Plymouth Rock that we're seeing is the cork and
there is a massive, massive amount of granite below it,
(12:34):
underneath the sand. So you've got a rock that split
has been chipped away, is smaller than it was and
is still impressive. And Samuel Elliott Morrison, who was a
naval historian, said, a pilot is being told go to
that giant rock. Okay, get a ship near the brooks?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Is there the rock? Is something about that in the
captain's log or anything. Nope, we headed for the big
big rock.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Never gets mentioned.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
When did the Plymouth Rock start to get talked about
at seventeen forty one, Okay, so that's one hundred and
twenty years right before anyone even mentioned the rock. Why
did they mention it?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Then a peer or a wharf was going to be
built over the rock, and this man in his nineties,
who was the elder of the church, was distraught, and
so he said, could you please take me down to
the waterfront one more time? And they put this man
in his nineties in a sedan chair and they carried
(13:34):
him three miles from his home to the waterfront at Plymouth,
and he tapped on the rock with his cane, and
all of those people who had followed him in the
sedan chair are learning that this is where the pilgrims land.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Wow, so no one really knew except this man. The
public didn't really know.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
And so a later historian, writing about the story because
it had been dismissed, that everybody needs to be mindful
that elder Fonce knew all of the first generation. And
Judge Davis broke down Thomas Fonce's life dates against the
(14:20):
dates of William Bradford, John Alden, John Howland, and you
realize that he knew the first generation into his forties Wow,
so that as an adult when he told this story,
people were so moved by his emotion about the rock
being covered by a wharf that when the wharf went up,
(14:41):
they cut a hole in it and put a railing
in so people could look down on the rock. And
so it's that moment that gives the rock significance, and
then later the attempt to move the rock ties it
now to revolutionary ideas.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
That is what about? What else about Plymouth is very
Thanksgiving related? Are there other attractions or other historical sites
that people can visit that are related to the landing
or to the first Thanksgiving or to events subsequent.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Well, Plymouth has the oldest continually operating private museum in
the nation in Pilgrim Hall. Unbelievable collection. It has the
most objects with a direct tie to possible Mayflower passage,
historical paintings that represent the First Thanksgiving. It's just an
(15:41):
amazing collection.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Any articles that I doubt that we're on the original
may Flower, like I don't know an or or a
metal piece.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
There are chairs that are said to have been owned
by Governor Carver, William and then William Brewster there is
a damask napkin that's said to have been owned by
Richard Warren. So there are objects that could possibly have
come over on Mayflower in their collection.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Speaking of came over? Who came over? And I heard
this professor say that the crew did not like the
passengers at all. The passengers were divided into religious folks
and mercenaries, but that the crew didn't like them at all,
and we're happy to be rid of them. Is that?
(16:35):
What's the story there?
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I've always wondered about the nature of Christopher Jones, who
was the master of Mayflower and a quarter owner of
the ship, because Governor Bradford in of Plymouth Plantation writes
about how the passengers are treated by the crew and
the amount of abuse they suffered in their hands, and
I wondered, did the captain or his junior officer, did
(17:00):
they not see any of this? Did they not intercede,
you know, on the benefit of the passengers. Who there's
one sailor who is saying, I'm gonna love feeding you
to the fishes, I'm gonna love throwing your body overboard,
I'm going to take your things, and Governor Bradford kind
of enjoys the fact that he reports that this young
(17:21):
man died half way across and they threw his body
in the water.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I don't think people understand how tough times were then.
There's no way for us to grasp the brutality of
the times in general, even when you're not on a
transatlantic crossing. Yes, it's a brutality. Life was really cheap then.
People didn't live that long then, and you had ten
kids and maybe three or five lived. Yeah, and so
(17:49):
an entirely different expectations was Plymouthy intended arrival point? Was
it Virginia they wanted to.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
They thought they were going to be Virginians, and they
were going within the boundary of the Virginia Company, which
is essentially from northern Florida to Hoboken, New Jersey. Virginia
is that extensive. They wanted to be under the Virginia Company,
but far enough away from Jamestown that there would be
(18:22):
no danger of the Church of England being thrust on them.
And why would they want to be within Virginia because
it's an established, royally approved company and above that, above
New Jersey or Virginia. At the time, what was that considered?
That was New England and was it wild and wooly
(18:42):
and untamed or was it just politically not as good
for them? No one really knew New England as well
as the Chesapeake except for fishermen and traders.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
I heard that that fishermen were coming from England to
fish cod like centuries before the Mayflower, at least hundred years. Yeah,
for at least one hundred years. And I also heard
that upon arrival, the people on the Mayflower had the
wrong sized fishooks. Yes, is that true?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
These were these were farmers. They had hired fishermen to
stay with them and educate them for a year, but
they didn't equip themselves well. And we all have to
remember what they themselves talked about, we are the first,
we have no teachers. And so they knew they were
(19:36):
going to be stumbling through things because what they were
trying was so novel and Virginia wasn't a success at
that point they were heading to Virginia, did they actually
expect to survive? I think they did because they they
recognized that they were different from the bulk of people
(19:58):
going to Virginia in that Virginia's population is predominantly bachelors,
predominantly people who are thinking let's make some quick bucks
here and go home. Where these were political refugees, religious refugees,
others who had come for the possibility of owning land.
(20:20):
No one was looking to go home again. And my
mentor non a Pashmat, the great Wampinogg historian, He said, Richard,
what was a message to Wampanog people was the presence
of women and children and the elderly. What was that
message that the English never could have suspected that after
(20:41):
one hundred years of only seeing men and boys as
traders and as fishermen, suddenly you have entire families getting
off a ship. And the nonverbal message for Indigenous.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
People is we're here to stay.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Yeah, we don't take our women and our children and
our elderly into any potentially violent situation. So the English
would have no idea that the message that they're sending
to Indigenous eyes is one if we come and no harm.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Okay, that's good. That would also send a message that
we're not here just to plunder, We're here to populate.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yes, yeah, and they're not particularly successful at that.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
That rough year. Yeah, we'll get into that right after this.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I w BZ you're on night side with Dan Ray
on w b Z, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Bradley J And for Dan tonight and we're with Richard Pickering,
who is mister Thanksgiving. He's the deputy director of the
Plymouth Patuxt Museums, which is headquarters. It truly is ground
zero for Thanksgiving. Also the chief historian, as you probably
could have guessed by his deep knowledge of everything to
do with the time. Let's see, where were we. We
(21:59):
were on the on the Mayflower, wondering certain things and
expected to go to Virginia as it was then, which
was like a huge place. It's very good that you
made me understand that. I didn't know that. I kind
of always thought of it and it's current iteration. But
no Virginia. It was New England, and then Virginia started
(22:21):
right away. Yes, there was nothing in between, no mid Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And in sixteen twenty, New England's name was new that
Captain Smith had come through and mapped New England and
he gave it its regional name.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Oh yeah, what was it before it was New England?
Just those woods?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Yeah, it was just essentially those woods over there, and
he gives it a name with a real sense of
real estate savvy of would you rather go to a
place called Virginia or a place called New England?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Right, it's got your home attached right.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
To the name, and he takes the map back to England.
It has no names on it other than the region
is now New England, and one of James's sons names
all of the places in New England. So there is
this tradition that Plymouth was named Plymouth because the Mayflower's
(23:19):
successful departure from England was Plymouth, England, and no, it
was already named Plymouth. So even though for thousands of
years it had been Peduxit to Wampanog people, and it
still is ptux It this day. Even though it's more
commonly known as Plymouth, it's still also patux It. What
(23:43):
does potoxic translate to a place of little waterfalls? Because
the water was so fine, and it's one of the
reasons that they chose the site on Lyden Street or
what would be called Lydon Street, because as it's surrounded
by springs, the water was so good.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
And Leiden streets so named because they left from or
they were from Leiden.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yep, it was, it was just the street until the
early nineteenth century. There was only one street, and then
in the nineteenth century it was given the name of
Leiden Street. But in the seventeenth century it was just
the street, and for a.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
While it wasn't even a street. It was just kind
of a space between two roses, probably still grass or
mud more likely it could be. So Mayflower shows up.
It took a lot longer. It was a lot worse
than they thought, and they figured they were in Virginia
(24:41):
near New Jersey, but no, that turns out, well, we
were way north of that, and they tried to go.
They tried to head down, but the weather was just
too much and they said, you know, we can't do this.
This is where we're at, pretty good place to stop
protected harbor. We're gonna stay here. This is it it
or leave it. And they didn't jump right onto the
(25:04):
land right away, right they hung out in the ship
because they did have to do the mayflow compact. But
what else were they doing during that month?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Well we can I think we can complicate the story
further because they knew that they were at Cape Cod
and historians and mariners think they left England so very
late that Jones decided to come the more northern route
(25:33):
instead of the southern route because it was faster, though
it was more treacherous. And so they know they're at
Cape Cod. They're not very far away from where they
need to be, only ninety three nautical miles. We think
of it in land terms and land passages, but in
nautical terms, it's only ninety three miles. They are very close.
(25:56):
And then Jones gets caught in the shoals off the
town of checks Adam, and may Flower almost breaks apart,
and so he says, I can't get you south. You
have to stay here. There's an additional complication to that story.
Bradford never suspects Jones of anything. Jones he was the
(26:19):
master the ship and the owner of the ship. In
sixteen sixty nine, William Bradford's nephew, Nathaniel Morton prints the
first full length history of Plymouth Colony, and in fact
it's the first full length history of any English speaking
colony on the East Coast. In it, he takes large
(26:45):
passages from his uncle's manuscript, but at one point he
puts in a margin, sure, and certain information has just
come to me that Christopher Joe was working for the Dutch.
What does that mean that means he was being paid
(27:06):
by Dutch merchants never to get them anywhere near in
the vicinity of Manhattan or northern New Jersey. And so
it could be that he accidentally is in the shoals,
because no ship owner, no mariner, would want to be
in that situation. But the shoals now cover duplicity.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
And then do you think he went into the shows
as an excuse not to go south?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
No, I don't think he went to the purposely, but
they cover his original intention.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So that was the silver lining for him.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
And for a while people never accepted what Morton said
in suspicion of the captain. But then a historian in
the nineteen forties said, it has to be remembered that
the first governor, the first mayor of Manhattan after it
seized from the Dutch, was a member of the Pilgrim's
(28:06):
Church in Leiden and fluent in Dutch. And so now
you have this man attached to Plymouth, who has access
to all the Dutch business records in New York.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Why would the Dutch not want the Mayflower to head
down to Amsterdam.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
They had already been looking at that site themselves. Interesting
they were seen. I just didn't want the competition. No,
so our mayflower folks are stuck up here.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
In the frozen north. And what else were they doing
for that month? Why did it take a month before
they got off the ship and stepped on the rock?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Provincetown what is now called Provincetown proved very unsatisfying to
their needs. They couldn't find a source of water that
wasn't brackish, they couldn't find rich soil and so and
then having marauded and stolen native corn, having dug up
(29:05):
and stolen from native graves, they now are seen as
these dangerous intruders on the land.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
And so at it's more risk it does.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
And so what you see in the attack on December seventh,
sixteen twenty at what is now First Encounter Beach in
East Dam, the Wampanog people are driving them up and away,
and so it takes them three voyages of discovery as
they call them, to find a peduxit to fine plymouth.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
The well, excuse me, can you talk a little bit
about the Mayflower compact and why they didn't why did
they wait till the last minute to do that? Was
that an afterthought?
Speaker 3 (29:54):
This is where I'm going to be controversial, and there
there are some other historians who are in agreement with me,
and we've all come to this thinking without talking to
one another about it. But we suspect that the Mayflower
Compact was used in crisis, not drafted in crisis, and
that when you look at how mindful John Robinson, their minister,
(30:19):
had been in Holland, and the deep advice he gives
them about community construction, that we, some of us think
the Mayflower Compact would have been signed to anywhere they landed.
It gets used to bind themselves together in crisis of
some people saying, we're not in Virginia, We're we don't
(30:40):
have to stay with any of you. We can do
whatever we want. We're on our own now. But they
have to hold people together before anyone can leave that ship.
The Mayflower Compact essentially creates a civil body politic where
every household is bound to every other household.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Because without that they would have not right. And do
you think they had to pressure that some people to
sign it? I do, I do? Who would not wanted
to have signed it?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
The mercenaries, well, they aren't really mercenaries because the merchants
the quote unquote strangers. Okay, you know there's this classic
divide of there were the saints that were the members
of the church, and then there were the strangers who
weren't members of the church and they were not spiritual.
The reason the church left Holland was their numbers were
(31:30):
shrinking because of the poverty and the deprivation of living
in Holland. And so they said, if we move the
church to where there's the potential for profit, others will
worship with us. So the strangers, the people unknown to
them function may have been joining this party saying, not
(31:50):
going to worship in poverty, but if there's the potential
for safety and profit, I'll join the church, I'll go
with them. So there could be some that are just
there for the chance for land and profit and others
for whom it's worship and profit.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I'm going to take a quick break and then go
to David in San Francisco. But an observation, what would
you say the odds of making a safe surviving in
a transatlantic crossing We're back then eighty percent. You probably
would maybe twenty fifty to fifty something like that. I
just want to point out that if airlines were like that, no,
(32:28):
no one would go right. It's a wildly dangerous thing
to do, and so you would have to be desperate
to do it, either desperate for profit or desperate for
some kind of freedom, desperate to get away from the law,
or something else. So we'll break and continue with Richard
Pickering and we will talk to David in San Francisco. Hopefully, David,
(32:51):
you'll have something to add to this topic after this
on WBZ.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Every Thanksgiving, I had a super heavy Thanksgiving, hassle free.
I only had to walk thirty five steps from home
to Thanksgiving and back thirty five steps. We're with mister Thanksgiving,
Richard Pickering, and we're talking. We are going really granually
on the history of events leading up to Thanksgiving. But
(33:24):
we have David in San Francisco. It's always nice to
hear from David. You have some Thanksgiving words for us.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Hi, David, how old Rally. It is so good to
hear from you. And I just got home and I'm
not familiar with the topic you're talking about. However, this
is the second time I've talked to you. When you
were sitting in on on Thanksgiving?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
How is your thanks How is your Thanksgiving?
Speaker 4 (33:52):
Very good? I gotta I got some people bring some
food to me and from little brothers, friends of the elderly.
And then the other day I had one for my
meals on wheels. Uh, they're my regular food supply. So
I had a fourth year an hour in a row
that had meals from both those people, and they were
(34:13):
very good.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Did you get visits from anybody? Did you get a
visit from anybody? Nice phone call? Any visits?
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Any what?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
It's all right you you had a question for me?
Go ahead?
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Oh no, this is the second time I'm talking to you, uh,
since you're sitting in uh for somebody on Thanksgiving. And
the first time. The first time was a number of
years ago. You were sitting in for a Morgan White
Junior and you ran a trivia game and I won.
I won a T shirt. And it's when your management
(34:50):
of your radio station.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Said, gave away any prizes?
Speaker 4 (34:57):
No, no, but you had to come to the radio
station to get the T shirt. And I'm thirty three
hundred miles away. And my sister Vicky works at a
hospital in Baltimore, and she had worked with a nurse
who had a sister that lived in Boston, and her
sister came to the station, got me the T shirt,
nailed it to my sister, and then my sister mailed
(35:18):
me the T shirt. So a lot of miles on
it and a lot of change of hands.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I hope you still have that shirt. Pardon, I hope
you still have that shirt.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Oh yeah, it's a w b z U The's Radios
T shirt. And also I want to tell you my
still my favorite number one song of all time is
a Walk into the Rain by.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I appreciate that. I want to wish you a happy Thanksgiving, David,
and we need to I have to say goodbye. I'm
very sorry, thank you so much for calling. Appreciate it.
But we do need to stick with the Thanksgiving and
Richard Picket Ring in the history of Thanksgiving from mister
Thanksgiving himself. So we will get to the first Thanksgiving.
(36:08):
But each time you come in, I learned another layer
of things about the events eating up to it, and
the event itself, and about Plymouth, the town. I learned
something I didn't know about you, that you're mister Sombrero
as well as being mister Thanksgiving. And I saw a
picture of this massive sombrero, bigger than anything by far.
(36:31):
It's like cartoonishly large, giant sombrero. And people in your
town know you as mister Sombrero. Ye, what's the deal
with that?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
I've had skin cancer right. My brother bought that sombrero
for me as a joke when I was seven years old,
and it has a three and a half foot wide brand.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
It's bigger than you.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
So I can sit on the front lawn and be
in the sun and not endanger my skin. But now
people will say where's the hat? If I'm on the
front lawn and I'm not in it, or if I
don't appear. I was recently on the town's Facebook page, like,
has anyone seen mister Sombrero lately? The sobrero makes me laugh.
(37:15):
And so if I can bring people a smile by
sitting on my front lawn in a stupid hat.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Do they know what you do?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Or you're just mister sombrero. Some people know who I am.
Other people, I'm just the guy in the hat. People
drive by and wave, People pull up at the house
and say, we didn't see you on our last vacationion.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
We were wor sad. Yeah, we were worried like this year.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Someone said, thank god, you're not dead.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Well, you need to have a big sign that you
put out when you're not there, said, you know, temporarily gone,
not dead, something like that. Okay, a short time before
the top of the hour. Finally, oh, no, I wanted
to ask you, did the did the pilgrims they feel
bad about taking the Indians corn? And can you explain
(38:07):
why there were this corn available? And no, no, I
shouldn't say Indians. No, Native Americans. They're very few compared
to what had been there, maybe ten years before. Maybe
the persons who would bury the coin, they weren't gone.
It was a ghost town.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Why there had been epidemic death from sixteen sixteen to
sixteen eighteen that an infection or multiple infections. There have
been so many theories about what it was, and we
can't say with any honesty as to whether it was
bubonic plague or yellow fever.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
We don't know. Are there any DNA? Is there any
way to get DNA? I don't know? Are there any
Do you have the remains of any of the Native
Americans at the time.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Not that I know, and that would be sacrilege too. Okay, Yeah,
not worth knowing. You don't either know everything. But the
families on Cape Cod that were stolen from they were
still there. So they weren't stealing from the barns of
the dead. They were stealing from families that ran from them.
(39:12):
So in the summer of sixteen twenty one, when one
of the children in Plymouth goes missing and is twenty
miles from the town, he's transferred not closer to Plymouth,
he sent back to the Cape where the corn was stolen.
So the English had to confront the very families they
(39:34):
had stolen from.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Oh yeah, and so as you mentioned, this made it
a much more dangerous place for the new arrivals because
they were now seen as thieves. Yes, and was there
an early Well, you know what, we're almost out of
time here. We'll take this break, but we'll continue to
pick up where were that fought right after this break
(39:55):
with Richard Pickering, who is the deputy director and senior
are in at Plymouth Patuxet Museums. If you have not
been down there, you gotta go. It's super cool. Just
ask Jalen Rivers right the number six one, seven, two, five, four,
ten thirty and our next call will be Hannah and
Steve down in Chatham w b Z NewsRadio ten thirty
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