January 2, 2026 • 45 mins
Bradley Jay Filled In On NightSide with Dan Rea:
Although it may be hard to imagine living anywhere else other than the U.S. if you were born and raised here, it’s always interesting to learn about other cultures and how their way of living compares to ours. Bradley spoke with Chad Eric Bergman, Director of the Center for Scandinavian Studies at North Park University-Chicago, about life in Sweden and how they rank for affordability, safety, and overall quality of life when compared to the U.S.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Cooston's new radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
If I ask you what's the best country in the world,
most of you will say America, the United States of America.
But then if I ask you, are you happy with
how things are? Most of you will say no. Most
of you on the right will say no. Most on
the left will say no. Most in the center will
say no. Most will say no. So wait, we're the
(00:27):
greatest country, but everybody's unhappy. How does that work? Why
are we unhappy? How could we get happier other countries?
You ask them, people in their countries say, yeah, we're happy.
It'd be great to maybe chat with them and find
out how they do it. What is the difference? What
(00:48):
are the differences in the culture in areas like education.
First of all, maybe it's important to decide what areas
are different that makes them happier. Education, healthcare, general value system,
musical taste, attitude towards greed, attitude towards money, attitudes towards
(01:12):
money versus time as having value. And for the longest time,
I've looked for someone, I've searched all over for someone
that has deeply insinuated themselves into the culture here in
the United States and a culture where people will tell
you they're happy. And finally, producer Karen has found such
(01:37):
a person, and that person's name is Chad eric Bergman.
He's the director of the Center for Scandinavian Studies at
North Park University, Chicago, And so we're very pleased to
welcome Chad.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
How do you do, Chad, Ah, I'm doing great, and
thanks for having me on the show. I was this
is a great topic and I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Of course, by the way, you can listen if you
don't have a radio. We do probably get to Chicago
on the radio, I think, But if you don't have
a radio, you can always listen on the iHeartRadio app
anywhere in the world and you can call in. I'm
actually working on getting somebody from China to call check
(02:20):
out and have them talk about that culture. But that's
another time. So thank you for being with us. Tell
me about you and how and how and in what
ways you are insinuated in both American culture and Scandinavian culture,
in specifically Swedish culture.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yeah. Yeah, So I grew up in Minnesota and both
sets up. My grandparents emigrated from Sweden, and so I
still have cousins and family in Sweden, but also pretty
rooted in the Midwest. And so kind of what I
sometimes say, I have a foot in both canoes, and
(03:02):
sometimes they paddle in the same direction. Sometimes they don't.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
So you spend a lot of time in Sweden. You
know about how the government government works, You know about
how the peoples, you know how they think, what their
how their value systems operate, and things of that nature.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah, I do ye, all right.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So at the as I mentioned at the top, you've
go out and talk to pretty much anybody in the
United States and they'll both they'll say both, yes, we're
the greatest country in the world. And they will then
follow that up with now, no, no, everything's terrible. Now
on both sides. The economy is terrible, uh, on and
(03:40):
on and on the other political party is terrible, the
people people are terrible online, and and I'm going to
find out how Sweden got so happy basically, and and
and break it down down in terms of these uh
(04:02):
these areas that I told you, like work ethic, we
how much how important working forty eight hours a week is,
career choices, respect for authority, respect for the police, respect
for rules, eating habits, uh, things of that list. I
guess I'll start with education. Yeah, can you tell us
(04:25):
the differences in education, because that must have some bearing
on it.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
It does.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Education is incredibly important to to Sweden, and it's it
is it starts at an early age, but it's not it
is not driven by test scores. It's not driven by
what you know, what your what your kid is going
(04:54):
to get. It's it's it's by experiential and also really
connected to outdoors. So kids early on spend about half
the day outdoors in all senses of weather. But also
then come in and the that that the teaching and
education is really based on teamwork and a lot of
(05:15):
togetherness in that, and that continues on through through high
school and through that that next level and then there.
You used to be this myth that university was free
in in the Nordic countries, and if not necessarily so,
(05:36):
but it is highly subsidized so that you can get
to go to university or similar like a college and
not leave with one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in debt.
And so there's this idea that we educated ourselves and
(05:57):
we're going to pay forward to the next generation and
it's just built into like the fabric of the culture.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Now.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, I've always always thought that the best way to
even the playing field economically, financially and opportunity wise for
everyone in a country is to even out the education system.
And once you do that, then you don't have to
do these stop gap types of things post education for
(06:25):
adulthood that are so dividing. If you can, if you
can educate everybody and get everybody to an even starting point,
then you've kind of done your job and you don't
have to back into it like we do. And it
causes a lot of problems. You say, they are educated outside,
what what do they do? What do they do outside?
(06:46):
They do they do their math out in the snow,
math out in the snow or.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
No, it's it's no, they it's physical education. And being
outdoors is so part and parcel of the kind of
the identity of like the Nordic countries, and that the
idea that so much of our health and like being
at our sharpest is developed when we are it's like
(07:12):
one with nature. And so many of the grade schools
have these huge playgrounds that are all integrated and and
there's a sense of work, a sense of play in that.
And often you know, my kids here in Chicago, they
(07:34):
would get thirty minutes of recess a day and you know,
and you ask them when they came home, what was
your favorite part of school today? Recessing? So their favorite
part was thirty minutes. And recess is.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Just a recess from education, right, These kids are getting
educated outdoors. They're not just having recess for half a day.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
In Sweden, yeah, so exploration, so you know, they go
out and say, okay, today is about exploring the different
ways that sounds are heard.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
And then so then they go outside all these sounds,
they come back, they report and it's it's it's just
like it ignites that curiosity.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
So they can do a report on how sound travels
and things like.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
That, right, yeah, exactly. And it's just there's just such
a connection to the outdoors.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
There's a connection to the outdoors. They must not have
to fight like we do to protect the environment. It
must be a national, a cultural thing to do that.
It must not be such a strugglement when here we
have to fight tooth and nail. Do not have everything
developed and drilled in et cetera.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, it's you know, I would say that that is true.
But also it took greta tourin book to go on
school strike to really bring it to the forefront of
everybody in Sweden and uh and so it is something
that is really important and kind of that Swedish natural
(09:05):
culture to be now involved in, you know, what's outside
the landscape the planet absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Later later on and one of the one of the
biggest things that I'm curious about is the attitude towards
the rules and so be thinking about that. We're going
to get that. So in the United States, people will
get away with whatever they can get away within in
my town now there is very little in Boston, there's
(09:38):
very little traffic enforcement and people take advantage of it.
Where I know in Scandinavian countries they obey the rules
even when the eyes of the law are not watching.
We'll get into that. I want to find out about
healthcare system. We hear all kinds of rumors both ways
about healthcare, different systems and how how they are good
(09:58):
or bad. And I want to find from you on
healthcare in a Scandinavian country where they say they're happy.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Next on w b Z, You're on Night Side with
Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
We continue with Chad eric Bergman, who is a person
who's who has knows a lot about a lot about Sweden,
director of the Center for Scandinavian Studies at North Park University,
so you know you're definitely an expert on this. We've
talked about education and how it's different a little bit.
(10:35):
Once again, the goal here is for all of us
to try to maybe get a handle on it. What
makes you guys over there, those folks so happy because
where everyone in the United States will complain. Now we'll
go to healthcare. How does it? How does it work?
How's it different?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (10:56):
It is.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
It is a state run healthcare and in kind of
like the the like what US News and World Report,
or someone says that's Sweden's number one in Canada's number
two in it And when you ask, my cousins will
complain about it. And then some of them have what
are called supplemental insurance, or there is also privatized doctors
(11:18):
in the system. But the stories that I can tell,
I took a group of students two years ago and
when we landed, one of the students turned to me
she's going through her bag and she said, I don't
have my medicine, and so what does that mean. It's like, well,
it's a pill that I take that costs about two
(11:38):
hundred dollars for each pill, and I need it to live.
And I, as the leader of the group, went well, okay,
here's a problem to solve. And so I reached out
to a friend of mine in the town of Young Chipping.
We got an appointment with the doctor and we got
a script and this one hundred, two hundred dollars pill
(12:02):
a day for the three weeks we're there. The the
the prescription price for that was fifty dollars for the
three weeks for those pills, and then the.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
You know, like thousands and.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Thousands, five thousands, yep, and uh. And the visit uh
was I think thirty five dollars. And so here it
just showed that there is a system that works really well.
And some you know, sometimes we here on in the US,
(12:41):
we have this idea that we got to have it
now and uh. And so all of these immediate centers
that we have, which does help, but Swedes have the
just kind of a sometimes a wait and see, maybe
if I just go out and take a walk, or
maybe if I just and then if it will make
an appointment and then they'll go in.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
But if they want to, that's important, an important distinction.
Right here we feel like, oh geez I, I have
a sniffle. I need to go to the doctor right now.
But there they'll wait and see a little bit. But
what about the complaint that you're here like I waited
a long time for my operation? Is that more likely
to happen in Sweden?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
So when when my my my cousin was it Now
he's a retired dentist and he and his wife are dentist.
They decided to go into the private side of that.
And there is meaning that it's it's a complicated system,
but there is actually a two tier system. And so
(13:45):
if you want something more rapidly, then you buy the
supplemental insurance and then you are are seen more more rapidly.
There is sometimes a line for uh moreh just the
elective surgeries, yes, and and and that's sure, you know
(14:09):
people will complain about that. But over all, the attentiveness
and the equality, uh is it was amazing.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
I want to point something out about medicine in our country.
And see if it's the same as in Sweden. I
have a real beef with the primary care positions that
I have, you know, run into, because no one when
I was overweight, none really said you need to lose weight. Instead,
(14:41):
it was they would take to give medication for various
things that were related to being overweight, and not just
for me but for everybody. Rather than concentrating on, hey,
you gotta lose weight, I'm going to send you to
this program. I'm going to make a big deal out
of your lifestyle. I'm going to make sure you understand
(15:02):
how to eat. This is going to be your prescription.
You're going to go to this class on how to eat.
And they call it they you know, it's this story
you hear all the time with Western medicine. They wait
for you to get sick and try to cure it
rather than try to prevent. And that's a problem. I
guess it's politically incorrect to tell a patient. I think
(15:24):
doctors are afraid to tell a patient you're overweight, which
is so pitiful and causes so much disease and so backwards.
I'm guessing it's not that way in your country, but
maybe it is. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, you can always find those elements, but preventative is
key in Sweden. If Swedes are very attentive to how
they eat, very attentive to that that kind of being.
In fact, recently I was reading that it's now common
that doctors will prescribe for anxiety.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Or or.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Types of uh pressure, depression, they'll prescribe going outside and
walking in the woods to help them. And yeah, you know,
a good walk sometimes clear to the head. And so yes,
there's a there is a there is a little bit
of a difference in in that.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Now, personal priorities, let's get into that goals, and that's
all wrapped up in values. So I'm not going to
separate out values, I guess and personal priorities. Well maybe
actually I will tell me about priorities life priorities.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, you know, there is a you know here in
the States where you just have such a drive to
be something or to matter, and uh, that isn't that
that kind of pressure doesn't seem to be in Sweden.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Phrase what you're getting at. I just I came up
with a word the other day, which is the driving.
And it may be for all human kinds are different
to varying degrees, but in the United States, to strive
for significance to be significant somehow seems to be a
driving force, whether it's TikTok uh person influencer or rock
(17:34):
star or whatever, being standing out, being special, being famous
is a big I guess being famous that's a form
of or being rich, which is a form of being significant.
The big, big umbrella is significance. And so it's different
in Sweden.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, there's a word that's called in Swedish, it's called
log them and spelled l A g O M and
if you break it down, it means around the team.
And Uh, it's just like concept that all suites kind
of hold on to that. It's it's like just enough
is a feast, so that all of my like all
(18:16):
of those good things that have been met, well, that's enough.
And and it's it is it's something that permeates all that.
And there's this like well hy possible story that it's
it comes from the Vikings that when the Viking would
go in and they do what they do uh in
a village and then uh and then they would pour
all the like the meaeds and something into one bowl
(18:38):
and then they would raise the ball and say hey
skull which means ball, and they go all the way
around the team the law and the first person would
get exactly the same amount as the last person, and
everyone knew about that equality. And it's that kind of
enough and uh uh just evenness that is such a
(19:00):
difference than this kind of drive to the goal posts here.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So that would tell me that there are fewer people
who once they say make a billion dollars, would would
keep trying to make money just to win the game.
Or maybe that's not true. Maybe in Sweden there are
just as many Warren Buffettson and Elon musk Is anywhere.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Else there are. There are wealthy people in in Sweden
and Finland and Norway. But what is kind of key
is that you really would never know that that person
is that wealthy that you just don't show it.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And there's a lot of mar A lagos and they're
not a lot of three hundred foot yachts and stuff.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
No, No, I think the goal for everybody is to
have this little cottage out in the in the country
and then I've made it. That's that's the that's the
that's the goal.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, Okay, other other like things people strive for. That's
something they don't strive for. What do people strive for?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Yeah? I think people really they they strive for the
a good life, like a filled, fulfilled life.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And how do you say that? You're going to have
to be specific about what that is.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
So there is this uh there is Oh yeah, it
is about uh do I have enough time to pursue
the interests that I have that are not driven by
(20:54):
money or aren't driven by uh prestige, And so time
becomes really the precious commodity, and so much so that uh,
you know, the mini companies now have dropped to a
four day work week and they've found that they've had
(21:15):
increased productivity. Uh. SWEDESI famously have five sometimes six weeks
of vacation in the summer, and Sweden pretty much goes
on holiday from July and August. It's really hard to
find in Stockholm. In the big cities, you'll find uh
(21:36):
businesses that are still operating. But you get it out
and people are people are on vacation. They take that time.
So time time, I guess is another way to say it.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
So time is more valuable than money here here money
is obviously more valuable than time.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah, I would, I would lean into that. Yep.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
All right, Now, is there do they sacrifice this six
weeks vacation? Is there is there a loss in revenues
or is it made up sort of if you if
you if there were a way to compare it. Does
it cost them monetarily both the businesses and are they
(22:17):
poorer financially because of it? Or do they make enough
do the businesses?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
You know, this is one of those things that I
like to point out to some people is that like
sometimes some people just toss out the word that they're
they're just socialists, you know, socialist countries, And the thing
is that they're not. They're social democrats countries and Sweden specifically,
and and capitalism is really like they get it. They
understand how to make money. I mean, you don't have
(22:45):
an idea or spotify if if you don't know how
to make make your nuts. But the thing is is
that that there's such an attentiveness to how to work
and how to do the things that that that the
quality of life and the quality of the business is
(23:06):
healthy instead of uh stressed and uh it's it's I
find that they when I when I've looked at numbers
that Swedish companies just thrive even when even in that
and it's kind of expected. It's like a cycle, so
(23:28):
like seasonal, so people kind of expect, Okay, this is
where it might get, but we know that it'll pick
up and grow even more because of the way we've
rested and the way we've been able to have our time.
I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yes, Sweden is the number one country for affordability, safety,
and overall quality of life, and.
Speaker 5 (23:48):
We're trying to.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Figure out why. So maybe in the United States we
don't just keep muddling, muddling along, complaining and unhappy. As
great as we are, we're muddling along, planning, unhappy, where
the Swedes are just all happy and I would like
to but we're all trying to learn how they do
and maybe adopt. Each of us listening now to w
(24:12):
BZ could adopt some of the values and the habits
that they have. We'll continue on this after this quick
break on.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
W b Z.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
In the United States, we're always complaining about how things
are going badly. In Sweden, they seem happy. Why no
one really digs in on that until now here on WBZ.
I am doing that with my guest Chad eric Bergman
from the he's the director actually at the Center for
(24:51):
Scandinavian Studies at North Park University in Chicago. And let's
see what should we get into next. All right, this
is big. I don't want to miss out. I want
plenty of time for it. So i'm and we are
all in Boston and in Massachusetts and in New England
seeing a lack of the willingness of towns to enforce
(25:20):
the law. And so what we're seeing is Americans when
no one's looking, and the traffic is horrific. The consideration
people show each other horrible. The motor scooters blast them
through lights, cars block in the box and jamming up traffic.
(25:40):
So you have you can't even move light cycle after
light cycle. In this country, we will break the law
if we think we can get away with it. That
is a generalization. It is also true people seem to
not like the law, not like the rules. And I'm
I will share this one thing with you. I took
(26:04):
my final course in college was macroeconomics, but the teacher
didn't care about teaching economics. Really he taught a bigger
picture thing. And one of the things he said, he
asked the class and he knew how we'd all answer,
and he talked about which is which is a better life,
(26:25):
life with a lot of rules, et cetera that everybody
has to follow, or a life that are rules. And
everyone said, of course, well, it's better to have no rules.
And he said, and he explained, rules are freedom, and
I I as long as the rules are good rules
(26:46):
and everybody agrees with the rules they are that is
the case. If you have a government that you trust
and the legislations that you trust making rules that you
that are fair, then they are freedom. And what we're
experiencing now in say Boston traffic is the prison of
(27:11):
ignoring the rules. And so I'm curious. And the reason
I bring this up is because I've not been to Sweden,
but I've been to hell Sinkia a couple of times,
and I noticed that at a crosswalk, even though there
are no cars coming, everyone will wait for the walk signal.
(27:32):
Why because it makes the society work, which we don't
seem to get. Rules help your society work, as long
as they're good rules like stopping it to stop sign
is a good rule, it really is, Yet we choose
to ignore it and as a result, our society is
when it comes to traffic anyway is breaking. It's broken.
(27:53):
But you guys or those guys, those people are in Sweden.
Look yet that rules, good rules followed makes society work.
Can you explain? Is there a word for following the rules?
Is there? Where does that come from? How it comes
(28:14):
from trusting the government? I believe, and yeah, and being
and liking the rules.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
There is comfort in knowing what side of the road
you walk on, and that comfort is something that I
think is born out of I know when just in
reading Swedish and history that one hundred, one hundred and
(28:45):
fifty years ago it was as crazy and lawless kind
of as it was in big cities. But but what
happened in the forties and fifties was the sweep of government,
uh change that did away with the hierarchy of of
(29:11):
of nobility and created this equality and the and in
that set a system of bureaucracy that then people began
to understand and trust and saying.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
King before the forties and fifties, no, they're still a
king in the.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Larger sense uh of the president. You must you must
have a boss, an executive.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Nobility as in the uh uh counts and marquees and people.
You know that the thing that kind of held this
the long standing tradition of the working class.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
They eliminated the strata different, the class strata, and everybody
became kind of one.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
And that was it was a hard work battle that happened.
But through the fifties and sixties they started the government
started to put into place more of these welfare systems
and this concept of cradle to grave that you're taking
care of from the cradle to the to the grave,
and these systems. And partially because Sweden had money, because
(30:39):
they held this quote unquote neutral stance during World War
two and sold their iron to all sides, they were
at a higher footing financially to develop some of these
cradle to grave things that then the next generation started
to trust and buy into and and and and so
(31:02):
it it slowly increased the everybody's lifestyle. Everybody uh felt
the benefits, everybody felt that they got a good education,
and so it continued to grow. And so this idea
of being kind of a Swede, in this sense of
(31:24):
being a part of a whole kind of made sense
to everybody, and and so it wasn't always that way,
but it has kind of grown to be that way.
And uh, there is a trust in the government, and
uh that is trust the government.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Okay, Yeah, there's a trust in the system. Here in
the United States, we hate our government, even though it
is a model around the world is certainly better than
a lot. But you'll hear people complain like crazy, they
don't like it at all. And I guess trickle down
from that is they don't like the rules. I guess
(32:03):
I don't know. Do you think there's something in American DNA,
the revolution, the individual, the rugged individual cowboy DNA just
won't let us have a system like yours?
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yeah, I think, uh I will. You know, the Barnum
and Bailey circus kind of entertainment is really in the
fabric of kind of the American way, and that is
not something that is that Swedes are taken by.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Would you say this is more we we it's us,
it's our team. They're more of a team, a bunch
of team players, whereas in the United States it's me.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely and that. But there's a darker side
to that too, in that many older people live alone
because they're kids now now think well, the state will
take care of them. And so there's this whole loneliness
of age. And so you see that in like the
movies like Obie, the movie with Tom Hanks that was
(33:14):
a remake of a Swedish movie. It's like an old
man who just doesn't have purpose because he's lost contact.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
So you rephrase that, you know, restate that. See if
I got it right, there's a problem when the state
takes care of you cradle to the grave because since
your kids don't have to take care of you, they
don't and the people are all alone. Yeah, and then
the system though, that's a problem with the kids in
(33:44):
our society. The kids don't take care of their parents
in many cases. I mean, they don't visit them, and
they don't care for them. They don't get the healthcare
and they don't get the family closeness. So at least
Swedish people are getting the health care and being taken
care of for their necessaries as they get older. But okay,
(34:07):
fair enough, because it's too good. I don't want to see.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Yeah, well I don't know.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Yeah, but that's so that's I wanted to I wanted
to present two different possibilities of why people stay by
the rules. So that's the first, and that's kind of
an historical change. One is kind of a mythic uh
idea that is kind of Scandinavian in itself, and it's
(34:35):
this idea of what what the Swedish word is logan,
which means it's the law of this guy named Yenta,
and it came from a small town in Norway, this
writer looked about. And it's the idea of the tallest
poppy gets chopped down, or if you know, the viking
head that above the uh you know, the roll of
(34:58):
shield is the Viking that gets hit. So you keep
your head down. And one of the ways that you
keep your head down is you follow the rules. Because
if I follow the rules, nobody will notice me and
nobody will care about what I'm doing. And that that
is sometimes some of the things that Swedes who have
(35:18):
left Sweden really breathe the freedom of the United States
because that kind of oppressive cultural eye that's always on you,
it can it for some people, can be too much.
And so there there's a there is this kind of
idea of oh, if I can get. If I can
get to America, the land of the possibility and dreams,
(35:40):
then you know all everything will be okay. Maybe yeah,
then you.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
End up on the streets in New York like ratso Rizzo,
an urban cowboy. After this, we'll have another fun few
minutes with our guest Chad on w b Z.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
It is w BZ, and we're talking about we're comparing
a Scandinavian country, Sweden, with the United States, trying to
figure out why, you know, we're so gruppy here and
so complaining even though lots of folks want to come here.
Why they're so happy? By the way, what is the
rate of this? How to explain something? Do a lot
(36:27):
of Swedes and Scandinavians want to come to America? And
if they're so happy, why would they want to?
Speaker 3 (36:35):
I think sweet love to visit America. And mostly because
they have been said, uh Swedish or American culture since
like they woke up in the hospital as a baby. Uh,
they know all the references, they know all of our music,
(36:56):
and so there's this like desire to come and this
is it. But but once they get here, then you know,
they'll they'll quickly start to compare things like the pizza
homes better, uh the uh you know, the tacos back
home are better, you know, and then and then then
no they are.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
I mean maybe it's true, but you're going to shock
a lot of people saying Swedish pizza is better.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Yeah there, well, Swedish pizza, especially kabab pizza is uh.
It's really really tasty. And one do you think pizza
pizza it's it is like there was such an immigrant
from uh uh culture in the nineteen fifties and sixties
(37:45):
that immigrated from like the Greece and the whole area
up to up to Sweden that that they brought the
food and so kabob pizza is uh is the kebab
meat on on pizza with kebob sauce and lettuce on top.
And it is really it's really great. It's tasty, you know,
(38:09):
not Chicago. Yeah, so, but it's it is something sweets
grow up with and they they love it. Yeah yeah,
so they when they come to in Chicago and have
a Chicago style deep dish, which I know is many
(38:30):
in the Boston and New York area say it's not
not pizza. But it is such a different mind shift
to go AsSalt shift for for Swedes, but they learned
to like it.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
What's the that's what's the The roast beef? Is it
Al's roast beef? That's big in Chicago?
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Oh yeah no, and Portillo's. Uh it's great. So the
the Enna beef is really any any hot dog stand
or anything that said? If it says the Enna beef,
you know it's a real of Chicago and really good.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Hey, you want to hear everybody not just Chad a
weird in Chicago story. Okay, what are you gonna say?
Speaker 5 (39:12):
No?
Speaker 2 (39:13):
All right? I had some time found a deal to
Chicago just to go for one or two nights, maybe
maybe two nights, and there was us somehow I might
have said, which I usually say, no matter where I
go in the world, Hey, does anybody know anybody? In
this case Chicago? It wants to hang out and have lunch,
(39:36):
just so I have somebody to talk to. And then
usually when they reply, it's usually through somebody through this,
so there's a connection somehow. And somebody replied, Oh yeah,
they replied, and I thought it was person a you know,
some I knew the first name, not the last name,
(39:57):
so it was somebody with the first name I knew,
and I guess didn't look at the picture close enough.
So I said, oh, yeah, let's have lunch. That's great.
So we said a meeting place to meet up to
have lunch, and I got there and this was not
that person at all. It was somebody I had no clue.
It was a completely different person. So it was I
(40:19):
had lunch with an entirely unknown stranger at due to
the internet foul up. But it was. It was kind
of exciting and it was fine. I wish I could
remember the name of the place, but I cannot. I
have a question for you back about Sweden. Now, here's
the thing with Scandinavian countries. They have so many, you know, services,
(40:43):
they need to be very strict about who comes in
and to get those services, so they have to be
very strict on immigration, right m hmm.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Different Nordic countries took different approaches, and the Sweden it
took the approach that we will accept immigrants and uh,
and that has had both UH remarkable benefits but also
financial challenges and UH.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
The social democratic system that provides the healthcare, et cetera.
Speaker 5 (41:18):
When this happens, it does so there there there becomes
strain on the system and then uh and as a result,
that's where some of the tensions happened.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
And then there takes it takes a big time for
a bit of recalibration, uh to help understand the rhythm
and the amount and what needs to happen.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
And so the public.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Yeah, there there is and uh and most recently, uh,
there was a shift I mean to say, there was
a shift to the right in in Sweden in terms
of political Bernie Sanders is probably the most moderate or
(42:09):
is a conservative into the the Sweden time Sweden political
especial shift to the right. Yes, there has and so
there has been a little bit of uh uh stopping
some of the the immigration that's come in as But
on the on the flip side, is this idea that
(42:29):
Sweden is suffering many times some of the same multicultural
uh struggles that the US does, because there are so
many different now home origins that now their kids are Swedes,
but their home place a home origin is somewhere else.
Speaker 5 (42:51):
And so.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Causes miss like in many ways, how how it causes
a problem here is that there's a racism that is
sometimes blatant and that that causes it causes stress in
(43:14):
the system.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah, okay, Now here's a rumor I heard. I can't
remember which country, either Norway or Denmark has a rule
and they would hate this in the United States, that
they would consider this way too big brother. But on
the other hand, it's it's kind of right wing because
it's kind of nationalists. I think that there's a list
(43:35):
of names that you can name your kid. You must
in one of those countries, maybe yours too, I don't.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Know, Oh you Iceland, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Okay, that there's a list that you must stick to.
You can't name your kid number seven or or soda
or something like that. There's a list, and that's because
they want to keep a national identity, right.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Yeah, that is. That's an ice one. That is they're
very very much like driven by that. I I don't
know what Sweden's current stance is, but I know that
there has been an implication process for a name. So
you can't name your kid what six', seven but you
(44:27):
can sit the name and it's actually quite a liberal
prop you have to get. It, yeah that that. IS
i don't know what the current stance, is BUT i
don't have a problem.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
With, that, ACTUALLY i, THINK i, MEAN i don't have
a problem with the national identity. Being you, know let's
have a let's have A swedish. Name we're running. Out
we are actually out of. Time, no, yeah it went,
quickly didn't. It BUT i have to meet you a
person sometimes and having An al's roast beef or Maybe
i'll meet you us meets you In stockholm before a
(45:04):
Swash swedish. Pizza i've never been A, stockholm never been
so thank you so much for your time for sharing
and helping us get an. Idea what makes those darn
sweets so? Happy thank? You, okay take, care bye. Bye
well this next, HOUR i have no, idea AND i
(45:26):
made it purposely that, way open. Lines we're gonna play
it BY. I we're gonna play about ear anything you.
Want you kick me off in some. Direction who knows
how far it will. GO i do have some questions,
though that might kickstart, us and you'll find out what
those are coming. Up uh, six, one, seven, two, five,
four ten thirty is that? Number use it Or lose?
(45:49):
It last hour of the week here ON wbz
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Cooston's new radio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
If I ask you what's the best country in the world,
most of you will say America, the United States of America.
But then if I ask you, are you happy with
how things are? Most of you will say no. Most
of you on the right will say no. Most on
the left will say no. Most in the center will
say no. Most will say no. So wait, we're the
(00:27):
greatest country, but everybody's unhappy. How does that work? Why
are we unhappy? How could we get happier other countries?
You ask them, people in their countries say, yeah, we're happy.
It'd be great to maybe chat with them and find
out how they do it. What is the difference? What
(00:48):
are the differences in the culture in areas like education.
First of all, maybe it's important to decide what areas
are different that makes them happier. Education, healthcare, general value system,
musical taste, attitude towards greed, attitude towards money, attitudes towards
(01:12):
money versus time as having value. And for the longest time,
I've looked for someone, I've searched all over for someone
that has deeply insinuated themselves into the culture here in
the United States and a culture where people will tell
you they're happy. And finally, producer Karen has found such
(01:37):
a person, and that person's name is Chad eric Bergman.
He's the director of the Center for Scandinavian Studies at
North Park University, Chicago, And so we're very pleased to
welcome Chad.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
How do you do, Chad, Ah, I'm doing great, and
thanks for having me on the show. I was this
is a great topic and I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Of course, by the way, you can listen if you
don't have a radio. We do probably get to Chicago
on the radio, I think, But if you don't have
a radio, you can always listen on the iHeartRadio app
anywhere in the world and you can call in. I'm
actually working on getting somebody from China to call check
(02:20):
out and have them talk about that culture. But that's
another time. So thank you for being with us. Tell
me about you and how and how and in what
ways you are insinuated in both American culture and Scandinavian culture,
in specifically Swedish culture.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yeah. Yeah, So I grew up in Minnesota and both
sets up. My grandparents emigrated from Sweden, and so I
still have cousins and family in Sweden, but also pretty
rooted in the Midwest. And so kind of what I
sometimes say, I have a foot in both canoes, and
(03:02):
sometimes they paddle in the same direction. Sometimes they don't.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
So you spend a lot of time in Sweden. You
know about how the government government works, You know about
how the peoples, you know how they think, what their
how their value systems operate, and things of that nature.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah, I do ye, all right.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So at the as I mentioned at the top, you've
go out and talk to pretty much anybody in the
United States and they'll both they'll say both, yes, we're
the greatest country in the world. And they will then
follow that up with now, no, no, everything's terrible. Now
on both sides. The economy is terrible, uh, on and
(03:40):
on and on the other political party is terrible, the
people people are terrible online, and and I'm going to
find out how Sweden got so happy basically, and and
and break it down down in terms of these uh
(04:02):
these areas that I told you, like work ethic, we
how much how important working forty eight hours a week is,
career choices, respect for authority, respect for the police, respect
for rules, eating habits, uh, things of that list. I
guess I'll start with education. Yeah, can you tell us
(04:25):
the differences in education, because that must have some bearing
on it.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
It does.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Education is incredibly important to to Sweden, and it's it
is it starts at an early age, but it's not it
is not driven by test scores. It's not driven by
what you know, what your what your kid is going
(04:54):
to get. It's it's it's by experiential and also really
connected to outdoors. So kids early on spend about half
the day outdoors in all senses of weather. But also
then come in and the that that the teaching and
education is really based on teamwork and a lot of
(05:15):
togetherness in that, and that continues on through through high
school and through that that next level and then there.
You used to be this myth that university was free
in in the Nordic countries, and if not necessarily so,
(05:36):
but it is highly subsidized so that you can get
to go to university or similar like a college and
not leave with one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in debt.
And so there's this idea that we educated ourselves and
(05:57):
we're going to pay forward to the next generation and
it's just built into like the fabric of the culture.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Now.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, I've always always thought that the best way to
even the playing field economically, financially and opportunity wise for
everyone in a country is to even out the education system.
And once you do that, then you don't have to
do these stop gap types of things post education for
(06:25):
adulthood that are so dividing. If you can, if you
can educate everybody and get everybody to an even starting point,
then you've kind of done your job and you don't
have to back into it like we do. And it
causes a lot of problems. You say, they are educated outside,
what what do they do? What do they do outside?
(06:46):
They do they do their math out in the snow,
math out in the snow or.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
No, it's it's no, they it's physical education. And being
outdoors is so part and parcel of the kind of
the identity of like the Nordic countries, and that the
idea that so much of our health and like being
at our sharpest is developed when we are it's like
(07:12):
one with nature. And so many of the grade schools
have these huge playgrounds that are all integrated and and
there's a sense of work, a sense of play in that.
And often you know, my kids here in Chicago, they
(07:34):
would get thirty minutes of recess a day and you know,
and you ask them when they came home, what was
your favorite part of school today? Recessing? So their favorite
part was thirty minutes. And recess is.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Just a recess from education, right, These kids are getting
educated outdoors. They're not just having recess for half a day.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
In Sweden, yeah, so exploration, so you know, they go
out and say, okay, today is about exploring the different
ways that sounds are heard.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
And then so then they go outside all these sounds,
they come back, they report and it's it's it's just
like it ignites that curiosity.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
So they can do a report on how sound travels
and things like.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
That, right, yeah, exactly. And it's just there's just such
a connection to the outdoors.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
There's a connection to the outdoors. They must not have
to fight like we do to protect the environment. It
must be a national, a cultural thing to do that.
It must not be such a strugglement when here we
have to fight tooth and nail. Do not have everything
developed and drilled in et cetera.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, it's you know, I would say that that is true.
But also it took greta tourin book to go on
school strike to really bring it to the forefront of
everybody in Sweden and uh and so it is something
that is really important and kind of that Swedish natural
(09:05):
culture to be now involved in, you know, what's outside
the landscape the planet absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Later later on and one of the one of the
biggest things that I'm curious about is the attitude towards
the rules and so be thinking about that. We're going
to get that. So in the United States, people will
get away with whatever they can get away within in
my town now there is very little in Boston, there's
(09:38):
very little traffic enforcement and people take advantage of it.
Where I know in Scandinavian countries they obey the rules
even when the eyes of the law are not watching.
We'll get into that. I want to find out about
healthcare system. We hear all kinds of rumors both ways
about healthcare, different systems and how how they are good
(09:58):
or bad. And I want to find from you on
healthcare in a Scandinavian country where they say they're happy.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Next on w b Z, You're on Night Side with
Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
We continue with Chad eric Bergman, who is a person
who's who has knows a lot about a lot about Sweden,
director of the Center for Scandinavian Studies at North Park University,
so you know you're definitely an expert on this. We've
talked about education and how it's different a little bit.
(10:35):
Once again, the goal here is for all of us
to try to maybe get a handle on it. What
makes you guys over there, those folks so happy because
where everyone in the United States will complain. Now we'll
go to healthcare. How does it? How does it work?
How's it different?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (10:56):
It is.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
It is a state run healthcare and in kind of
like the the like what US News and World Report,
or someone says that's Sweden's number one in Canada's number
two in it And when you ask, my cousins will
complain about it. And then some of them have what
are called supplemental insurance, or there is also privatized doctors
(11:18):
in the system. But the stories that I can tell,
I took a group of students two years ago and
when we landed, one of the students turned to me
she's going through her bag and she said, I don't
have my medicine, and so what does that mean. It's like, well,
it's a pill that I take that costs about two
(11:38):
hundred dollars for each pill, and I need it to live.
And I, as the leader of the group, went well, okay,
here's a problem to solve. And so I reached out
to a friend of mine in the town of Young Chipping.
We got an appointment with the doctor and we got
a script and this one hundred, two hundred dollars pill
(12:02):
a day for the three weeks we're there. The the
the prescription price for that was fifty dollars for the
three weeks for those pills, and then the.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
You know, like thousands and.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Thousands, five thousands, yep, and uh. And the visit uh
was I think thirty five dollars. And so here it
just showed that there is a system that works really well.
And some you know, sometimes we here on in the US,
(12:41):
we have this idea that we got to have it
now and uh. And so all of these immediate centers
that we have, which does help, but Swedes have the
just kind of a sometimes a wait and see, maybe
if I just go out and take a walk, or
maybe if I just and then if it will make
an appointment and then they'll go in.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
But if they want to, that's important, an important distinction.
Right here we feel like, oh geez I, I have
a sniffle. I need to go to the doctor right now.
But there they'll wait and see a little bit. But
what about the complaint that you're here like I waited
a long time for my operation? Is that more likely
to happen in Sweden?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
So when when my my my cousin was it Now
he's a retired dentist and he and his wife are dentist.
They decided to go into the private side of that.
And there is meaning that it's it's a complicated system,
but there is actually a two tier system. And so
(13:45):
if you want something more rapidly, then you buy the
supplemental insurance and then you are are seen more more rapidly.
There is sometimes a line for uh moreh just the
elective surgeries, yes, and and and that's sure, you know
(14:09):
people will complain about that. But over all, the attentiveness
and the equality, uh is it was amazing.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
I want to point something out about medicine in our country.
And see if it's the same as in Sweden. I
have a real beef with the primary care positions that
I have, you know, run into, because no one when
I was overweight, none really said you need to lose weight. Instead,
(14:41):
it was they would take to give medication for various
things that were related to being overweight, and not just
for me but for everybody. Rather than concentrating on, hey,
you gotta lose weight, I'm going to send you to
this program. I'm going to make a big deal out
of your lifestyle. I'm going to make sure you understand
(15:02):
how to eat. This is going to be your prescription.
You're going to go to this class on how to eat.
And they call it they you know, it's this story
you hear all the time with Western medicine. They wait
for you to get sick and try to cure it
rather than try to prevent. And that's a problem. I
guess it's politically incorrect to tell a patient. I think
(15:24):
doctors are afraid to tell a patient you're overweight, which
is so pitiful and causes so much disease and so backwards.
I'm guessing it's not that way in your country, but
maybe it is. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, you can always find those elements, but preventative is
key in Sweden. If Swedes are very attentive to how
they eat, very attentive to that that kind of being.
In fact, recently I was reading that it's now common
that doctors will prescribe for anxiety.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Or or.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Types of uh pressure, depression, they'll prescribe going outside and
walking in the woods to help them. And yeah, you know,
a good walk sometimes clear to the head. And so yes,
there's a there is a there is a little bit
of a difference in in that.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Now, personal priorities, let's get into that goals, and that's
all wrapped up in values. So I'm not going to
separate out values, I guess and personal priorities. Well maybe
actually I will tell me about priorities life priorities.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, you know, there is a you know here in
the States where you just have such a drive to
be something or to matter, and uh, that isn't that
that kind of pressure doesn't seem to be in Sweden.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Phrase what you're getting at. I just I came up
with a word the other day, which is the driving.
And it may be for all human kinds are different
to varying degrees, but in the United States, to strive
for significance to be significant somehow seems to be a
driving force, whether it's TikTok uh person influencer or rock
(17:34):
star or whatever, being standing out, being special, being famous
is a big I guess being famous that's a form
of or being rich, which is a form of being significant.
The big, big umbrella is significance. And so it's different
in Sweden.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, there's a word that's called in Swedish, it's called
log them and spelled l A g O M and
if you break it down, it means around the team.
And Uh, it's just like concept that all suites kind
of hold on to that. It's it's like just enough
is a feast, so that all of my like all
(18:16):
of those good things that have been met, well, that's enough.
And and it's it is it's something that permeates all that.
And there's this like well hy possible story that it's
it comes from the Vikings that when the Viking would
go in and they do what they do uh in
a village and then uh and then they would pour
all the like the meaeds and something into one bowl
(18:38):
and then they would raise the ball and say hey
skull which means ball, and they go all the way
around the team the law and the first person would
get exactly the same amount as the last person, and
everyone knew about that equality. And it's that kind of
enough and uh uh just evenness that is such a
(19:00):
difference than this kind of drive to the goal posts here.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
So that would tell me that there are fewer people
who once they say make a billion dollars, would would
keep trying to make money just to win the game.
Or maybe that's not true. Maybe in Sweden there are
just as many Warren Buffettson and Elon musk Is anywhere.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Else there are. There are wealthy people in in Sweden
and Finland and Norway. But what is kind of key
is that you really would never know that that person
is that wealthy that you just don't show it.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And there's a lot of mar A lagos and they're
not a lot of three hundred foot yachts and stuff.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
No, No, I think the goal for everybody is to
have this little cottage out in the in the country
and then I've made it. That's that's the that's the
that's the goal.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, Okay, other other like things people strive for. That's
something they don't strive for. What do people strive for?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Yeah? I think people really they they strive for the
a good life, like a filled, fulfilled life.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And how do you say that? You're going to have
to be specific about what that is.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
So there is this uh there is Oh yeah, it
is about uh do I have enough time to pursue
the interests that I have that are not driven by
(20:54):
money or aren't driven by uh prestige, And so time
becomes really the precious commodity, and so much so that uh,
you know, the mini companies now have dropped to a
four day work week and they've found that they've had
(21:15):
increased productivity. Uh. SWEDESI famously have five sometimes six weeks
of vacation in the summer, and Sweden pretty much goes
on holiday from July and August. It's really hard to
find in Stockholm. In the big cities, you'll find uh
(21:36):
businesses that are still operating. But you get it out
and people are people are on vacation. They take that time.
So time time, I guess is another way to say it.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
So time is more valuable than money here here money
is obviously more valuable than time.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah, I would, I would lean into that. Yep.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
All right, Now, is there do they sacrifice this six
weeks vacation? Is there is there a loss in revenues
or is it made up sort of if you if
you if there were a way to compare it. Does
it cost them monetarily both the businesses and are they
(22:17):
poorer financially because of it? Or do they make enough
do the businesses?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
You know, this is one of those things that I
like to point out to some people is that like
sometimes some people just toss out the word that they're
they're just socialists, you know, socialist countries, And the thing
is that they're not. They're social democrats countries and Sweden specifically,
and and capitalism is really like they get it. They
understand how to make money. I mean, you don't have
(22:45):
an idea or spotify if if you don't know how
to make make your nuts. But the thing is is
that that there's such an attentiveness to how to work
and how to do the things that that that the
quality of life and the quality of the business is
(23:06):
healthy instead of uh stressed and uh it's it's I
find that they when I when I've looked at numbers
that Swedish companies just thrive even when even in that
and it's kind of expected. It's like a cycle, so
(23:28):
like seasonal, so people kind of expect, Okay, this is
where it might get, but we know that it'll pick
up and grow even more because of the way we've
rested and the way we've been able to have our time.
I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yes, Sweden is the number one country for affordability, safety,
and overall quality of life, and.
Speaker 5 (23:48):
We're trying to.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Figure out why. So maybe in the United States we
don't just keep muddling, muddling along, complaining and unhappy. As
great as we are, we're muddling along, planning, unhappy, where
the Swedes are just all happy and I would like
to but we're all trying to learn how they do
and maybe adopt. Each of us listening now to w
(24:12):
BZ could adopt some of the values and the habits
that they have. We'll continue on this after this quick
break on.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
W b Z.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
In the United States, we're always complaining about how things
are going badly. In Sweden, they seem happy. Why no
one really digs in on that until now here on WBZ.
I am doing that with my guest Chad eric Bergman
from the he's the director actually at the Center for
(24:51):
Scandinavian Studies at North Park University in Chicago. And let's
see what should we get into next. All right, this
is big. I don't want to miss out. I want
plenty of time for it. So i'm and we are
all in Boston and in Massachusetts and in New England
seeing a lack of the willingness of towns to enforce
(25:20):
the law. And so what we're seeing is Americans when
no one's looking, and the traffic is horrific. The consideration
people show each other horrible. The motor scooters blast them
through lights, cars block in the box and jamming up traffic.
(25:40):
So you have you can't even move light cycle after
light cycle. In this country, we will break the law
if we think we can get away with it. That
is a generalization. It is also true people seem to
not like the law, not like the rules. And I'm
I will share this one thing with you. I took
(26:04):
my final course in college was macroeconomics, but the teacher
didn't care about teaching economics. Really he taught a bigger
picture thing. And one of the things he said, he
asked the class and he knew how we'd all answer,
and he talked about which is which is a better life,
(26:25):
life with a lot of rules, et cetera that everybody
has to follow, or a life that are rules. And
everyone said, of course, well, it's better to have no rules.
And he said, and he explained, rules are freedom, and
I I as long as the rules are good rules
(26:46):
and everybody agrees with the rules they are that is
the case. If you have a government that you trust
and the legislations that you trust making rules that you
that are fair, then they are freedom. And what we're
experiencing now in say Boston traffic is the prison of
(27:11):
ignoring the rules. And so I'm curious. And the reason
I bring this up is because I've not been to Sweden,
but I've been to hell Sinkia a couple of times,
and I noticed that at a crosswalk, even though there
are no cars coming, everyone will wait for the walk signal.
(27:32):
Why because it makes the society work, which we don't
seem to get. Rules help your society work, as long
as they're good rules like stopping it to stop sign
is a good rule, it really is, Yet we choose
to ignore it and as a result, our society is
when it comes to traffic anyway is breaking. It's broken.
(27:53):
But you guys or those guys, those people are in Sweden.
Look yet that rules, good rules followed makes society work.
Can you explain? Is there a word for following the rules?
Is there? Where does that come from? How it comes
(28:14):
from trusting the government? I believe, and yeah, and being
and liking the rules.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
There is comfort in knowing what side of the road
you walk on, and that comfort is something that I
think is born out of I know when just in
reading Swedish and history that one hundred, one hundred and
(28:45):
fifty years ago it was as crazy and lawless kind
of as it was in big cities. But but what
happened in the forties and fifties was the sweep of government,
uh change that did away with the hierarchy of of
(29:11):
of nobility and created this equality and the and in
that set a system of bureaucracy that then people began
to understand and trust and saying.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
King before the forties and fifties, no, they're still a
king in the.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Larger sense uh of the president. You must you must
have a boss, an executive.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Nobility as in the uh uh counts and marquees and people.
You know that the thing that kind of held this
the long standing tradition of the working class.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
They eliminated the strata different, the class strata, and everybody
became kind of one.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
And that was it was a hard work battle that happened.
But through the fifties and sixties they started the government
started to put into place more of these welfare systems
and this concept of cradle to grave that you're taking
care of from the cradle to the to the grave,
and these systems. And partially because Sweden had money, because
(30:39):
they held this quote unquote neutral stance during World War
two and sold their iron to all sides, they were
at a higher footing financially to develop some of these
cradle to grave things that then the next generation started
to trust and buy into and and and and so
(31:02):
it it slowly increased the everybody's lifestyle. Everybody uh felt
the benefits, everybody felt that they got a good education,
and so it continued to grow. And so this idea
of being kind of a Swede, in this sense of
(31:24):
being a part of a whole kind of made sense
to everybody, and and so it wasn't always that way,
but it has kind of grown to be that way.
And uh, there is a trust in the government, and
uh that is trust the government.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Okay, Yeah, there's a trust in the system. Here in
the United States, we hate our government, even though it
is a model around the world is certainly better than
a lot. But you'll hear people complain like crazy, they
don't like it at all. And I guess trickle down
from that is they don't like the rules. I guess
(32:03):
I don't know. Do you think there's something in American DNA,
the revolution, the individual, the rugged individual cowboy DNA just
won't let us have a system like yours?
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Yeah, I think, uh I will. You know, the Barnum
and Bailey circus kind of entertainment is really in the
fabric of kind of the American way, and that is
not something that is that Swedes are taken by.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Would you say this is more we we it's us,
it's our team. They're more of a team, a bunch
of team players, whereas in the United States it's me.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely and that. But there's a darker side
to that too, in that many older people live alone
because they're kids now now think well, the state will
take care of them. And so there's this whole loneliness
of age. And so you see that in like the
movies like Obie, the movie with Tom Hanks that was
(33:14):
a remake of a Swedish movie. It's like an old
man who just doesn't have purpose because he's lost contact.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
So you rephrase that, you know, restate that. See if
I got it right, there's a problem when the state
takes care of you cradle to the grave because since
your kids don't have to take care of you, they
don't and the people are all alone. Yeah, and then
the system though, that's a problem with the kids in
(33:44):
our society. The kids don't take care of their parents
in many cases. I mean, they don't visit them, and
they don't care for them. They don't get the healthcare
and they don't get the family closeness. So at least
Swedish people are getting the health care and being taken
care of for their necessaries as they get older. But okay,
(34:07):
fair enough, because it's too good. I don't want to see.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Yeah, well I don't know.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Yeah, but that's so that's I wanted to I wanted
to present two different possibilities of why people stay by
the rules. So that's the first, and that's kind of
an historical change. One is kind of a mythic uh
idea that is kind of Scandinavian in itself, and it's
(34:35):
this idea of what what the Swedish word is logan,
which means it's the law of this guy named Yenta,
and it came from a small town in Norway, this
writer looked about. And it's the idea of the tallest
poppy gets chopped down, or if you know, the viking
head that above the uh you know, the roll of
(34:58):
shield is the Viking that gets hit. So you keep
your head down. And one of the ways that you
keep your head down is you follow the rules. Because
if I follow the rules, nobody will notice me and
nobody will care about what I'm doing. And that that
is sometimes some of the things that Swedes who have
(35:18):
left Sweden really breathe the freedom of the United States
because that kind of oppressive cultural eye that's always on you,
it can it for some people, can be too much.
And so there there's a there is this kind of
idea of oh, if I can get. If I can
get to America, the land of the possibility and dreams,
(35:40):
then you know all everything will be okay. Maybe yeah,
then you.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
End up on the streets in New York like ratso Rizzo,
an urban cowboy. After this, we'll have another fun few
minutes with our guest Chad on w b Z.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
It's Night Side with Dan Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
It is w BZ, and we're talking about we're comparing
a Scandinavian country, Sweden, with the United States, trying to
figure out why, you know, we're so gruppy here and
so complaining even though lots of folks want to come here.
Why they're so happy? By the way, what is the
rate of this? How to explain something? Do a lot
(36:27):
of Swedes and Scandinavians want to come to America? And
if they're so happy, why would they want to?
Speaker 3 (36:35):
I think sweet love to visit America. And mostly because
they have been said, uh Swedish or American culture since
like they woke up in the hospital as a baby. Uh,
they know all the references, they know all of our music,
(36:56):
and so there's this like desire to come and this
is it. But but once they get here, then you know,
they'll they'll quickly start to compare things like the pizza
homes better, uh the uh you know, the tacos back
home are better, you know, and then and then then
no they are.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
I mean maybe it's true, but you're going to shock
a lot of people saying Swedish pizza is better.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Yeah there, well, Swedish pizza, especially kabab pizza is uh.
It's really really tasty. And one do you think pizza
pizza it's it is like there was such an immigrant
from uh uh culture in the nineteen fifties and sixties
(37:45):
that immigrated from like the Greece and the whole area
up to up to Sweden that that they brought the
food and so kabob pizza is uh is the kebab
meat on on pizza with kebob sauce and lettuce on top.
And it is really it's really great. It's tasty, you know,
(38:09):
not Chicago. Yeah, so, but it's it is something sweets
grow up with and they they love it. Yeah yeah,
so they when they come to in Chicago and have
a Chicago style deep dish, which I know is many
(38:30):
in the Boston and New York area say it's not
not pizza. But it is such a different mind shift
to go AsSalt shift for for Swedes, but they learned
to like it.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
What's the that's what's the The roast beef? Is it
Al's roast beef? That's big in Chicago?
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Oh yeah no, and Portillo's. Uh it's great. So the
the Enna beef is really any any hot dog stand
or anything that said? If it says the Enna beef,
you know it's a real of Chicago and really good.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Hey, you want to hear everybody not just Chad a
weird in Chicago story. Okay, what are you gonna say?
Speaker 5 (39:12):
No?
Speaker 2 (39:13):
All right? I had some time found a deal to
Chicago just to go for one or two nights, maybe
maybe two nights, and there was us somehow I might
have said, which I usually say, no matter where I
go in the world, Hey, does anybody know anybody? In
this case Chicago? It wants to hang out and have lunch,
(39:36):
just so I have somebody to talk to. And then
usually when they reply, it's usually through somebody through this,
so there's a connection somehow. And somebody replied, Oh yeah,
they replied, and I thought it was person a you know,
some I knew the first name, not the last name,
(39:57):
so it was somebody with the first name I knew,
and I guess didn't look at the picture close enough.
So I said, oh, yeah, let's have lunch. That's great.
So we said a meeting place to meet up to
have lunch, and I got there and this was not
that person at all. It was somebody I had no clue.
It was a completely different person. So it was I
(40:19):
had lunch with an entirely unknown stranger at due to
the internet foul up. But it was. It was kind
of exciting and it was fine. I wish I could
remember the name of the place, but I cannot. I
have a question for you back about Sweden. Now, here's
the thing with Scandinavian countries. They have so many, you know, services,
(40:43):
they need to be very strict about who comes in
and to get those services, so they have to be
very strict on immigration, right m hmm.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Different Nordic countries took different approaches, and the Sweden it
took the approach that we will accept immigrants and uh,
and that has had both UH remarkable benefits but also
financial challenges and UH.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
The social democratic system that provides the healthcare, et cetera.
Speaker 5 (41:18):
When this happens, it does so there there there becomes
strain on the system and then uh and as a result,
that's where some of the tensions happened.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
And then there takes it takes a big time for
a bit of recalibration, uh to help understand the rhythm
and the amount and what needs to happen.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
And so the public.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Yeah, there there is and uh and most recently, uh,
there was a shift I mean to say, there was
a shift to the right in in Sweden in terms
of political Bernie Sanders is probably the most moderate or
(42:09):
is a conservative into the the Sweden time Sweden political
especial shift to the right. Yes, there has and so
there has been a little bit of uh uh stopping
some of the the immigration that's come in as But
on the on the flip side, is this idea that
(42:29):
Sweden is suffering many times some of the same multicultural
uh struggles that the US does, because there are so
many different now home origins that now their kids are Swedes,
but their home place a home origin is somewhere else.
Speaker 5 (42:51):
And so.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Causes miss like in many ways, how how it causes
a problem here is that there's a racism that is
sometimes blatant and that that causes it causes stress in
(43:14):
the system.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah, okay, Now here's a rumor I heard. I can't
remember which country, either Norway or Denmark has a rule
and they would hate this in the United States, that
they would consider this way too big brother. But on
the other hand, it's it's kind of right wing because
it's kind of nationalists. I think that there's a list
(43:35):
of names that you can name your kid. You must
in one of those countries, maybe yours too, I don't.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Know, Oh you Iceland, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Okay, that there's a list that you must stick to.
You can't name your kid number seven or or soda
or something like that. There's a list, and that's because
they want to keep a national identity, right.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Yeah, that is. That's an ice one. That is they're
very very much like driven by that. I I don't
know what Sweden's current stance is, but I know that
there has been an implication process for a name. So
you can't name your kid what six', seven but you
(44:27):
can sit the name and it's actually quite a liberal
prop you have to get. It, yeah that that. IS
i don't know what the current stance, is BUT i
don't have a problem.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
With, that, ACTUALLY i, THINK i, MEAN i don't have
a problem with the national identity. Being you, know let's
have a let's have A swedish. Name we're running. Out
we are actually out of. Time, no, yeah it went,
quickly didn't. It BUT i have to meet you a
person sometimes and having An al's roast beef or Maybe
i'll meet you us meets you In stockholm before a
(45:04):
Swash swedish. Pizza i've never been A, stockholm never been
so thank you so much for your time for sharing
and helping us get an. Idea what makes those darn
sweets so? Happy thank? You, okay take, care bye. Bye
well this next, HOUR i have no, idea AND i
(45:26):
made it purposely that, way open. Lines we're gonna play
it BY. I we're gonna play about ear anything you.
Want you kick me off in some. Direction who knows
how far it will. GO i do have some questions,
though that might kickstart, us and you'll find out what
those are coming. Up uh, six, one, seven, two, five,
four ten thirty is that? Number use it Or lose?
(45:49):
It last hour of the week here ON wbz
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